Instant Genius - Becoming an artist with robotics and AI

Episode Date: October 22, 2023

Sougwen Chung is one of the TIMES 100 most influential people in AI. Through the use of AI, robotics and other forms of futuristic tech, she creates mindblowing artwork. But how does she do it, what are the ethical considerations and where does she see art going in the future? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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delivering digital precision with analogue warmth. So you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com. to learn more. But is it a fad or is it the future? I'm joined by Suwin Chung to discuss this topic. She's an artist specialising in the use of AI, robotics and other technology to reduce her work

and was named one of the times 100 most influential people in AI. She explains how she incorporates these technologies into her work, as well as going into the ethics of AI art and what the future of the industry might look like. So for those who don't know, can you tell us, a little bit more about your work, how you use robots and technology and what you do? Sure. My name is Sue Guan Cheng. I'm an artist and researcher, and I've been working in the space of AI, robotics, art and technology for a little bit over a decade. I became really interested in thinking about ways to extend my own drawing ability into different

apparatuses through software, with a background and interactive art. and a background of music. And it sort of led me to this idea of working alongside a robotic unit in which the marks I make and the creative marks that are outputted by the robot arm are really intertwined. That was the beginning of a long journey in working with these technologies and exploring what's possible. So it's great to be speaking with you about that today. What specifically is the kind of technology that you're using most? I mean, they've seen a lot of your work that involves, I guess, robot arms and things like that. Is that your primary focus, would you say?

Actually, I would say it isn't. I think I've been working with a variety of different technological mediums, obviously, custom software. I've been working with robotic units. I've been working with biosensors, virtual reality, obviously recurrent neural networks and some generative AI stuff as well. So I think I tend to, and I've been thinking. a little bit more about I don't really consider anything really medium-specific. I start with the question of, you know, what's interesting and then I kind of reverse engineer what comes alongside it. But that being said, I've been doing most of my performance work and a lot of

creative research and inquiry with robotic units since about 2015. You grew up in a household where, I mean, your mother is a musician and your father as a programmer. And you've talked about, I guess, about these ideas that art and engineering are very similar practices. Do you think this is what brought you, I guess, to this kind of medium and this concept of using technology and art? Yeah, absolutely. Actually, my mother is the programmer and my father's the musician, which I like that inversion, sometimes because it defies a little bit of expectation. But, yeah, I grew up with, you know, and it's interesting because I think,

so much of how we grow up ends up making marks on us as we get older. So I grew up with computers and instruments and really found a lot of my modes of creative expression through that translation, through an object, through the screen, through code, and that kind of communication. So I've always found that, you know, there's something really inherently resonant about what you can say through tools and through instruments in a way that you can't really do with words. I'm not the loudest person either, so I think I found a lot of freedom in examining what was possible through violins and computers early on. I think that really parlayed into obviously working a lot with technology and interactive media. And then I think at one point, I really found myself missing the

embodied sensibilities that I had with violin, this idea that you could train your own muscle memory and your own gesture in a way that was uniquely your own. I really, I think, stuck with me from being a musician that was a little bit of the bedrock of how I thought about the drawing operations project that I've been working on quite a lot over the past little while. And you've mentioned that you've been working in this industry for quite a while now. How have you seen, I guess, that technology evolved, because for a lot of artists, the medium that they work with doesn't change or doesn't change drastically, but technology is advanced very rapidly. How has that seen your work change? That's an interesting question.

I've seen the trends in technology and, you know, I think in interactive media it was really all about real time for a while. It was about immersion and projectors and, I could go on, you know, for a while there was a lot of interest around a rapid manufacturing and 3D printing. And I think throughout all of that, there are, and you know, for a while there was physical computing as well and really sort of hacking together devices and what mobile technology was and what was to work with the internet. And, you know, I think they're all part of a longer lineage of what's led up to the public's interest. in artificially intelligent systems. I've definitely seen the landscape change a lot. And what I find kind of curious about a lot of it is how much there's been a ground swell

of interest around creativity and AI and generative AI and AI systems over the past, even year, it's been really quite rapid. So, you know, it went from being a really quite a niche. topic to something that I get messages about from friends and family asking me about automation and their jobs and creativity and what it all means. So I think it's exciting because I think a lot of times technology doesn't have many easy entry points for getting people interested in about interested in its effects and how we shape it and its role in society. So I think that increased discourse and interest around what these systems do and what they shouldn't do and what they can do

is is really positive. I know you've literally just said that you are always getting asked this now, so I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask you again. Applications like, you know, Mid-Jarney or Dali and all of these ones have become so incredibly popular all of a sudden, I think in a certain way of taking, I guess, the middle step out of creating art that it's the prompt and the result. I'm curious what you think about that as someone that makes art. Do you think that it's good the way these art generators work, or do you have any issues with that? I've been trying to, and I'm not trying to avoid value judgments.

I do think it's so context-specific for me. On one hand, I've spent the past decade or more thinking about the evolution of the human hand. And it's not evolution, it's not devaluing, it's not a razor. You know, right? And you could make the argument that a lot of these new tools really eliminate the human hand from the equation. And in some ways, eliminate might be too simplistic, but it does really take the mark away from image-making in a way that is very confronting and challenging and disruptive to the industries of illustrators and graphic artists that have made their livelihood out of being, you know, out of exploring a certain type of tool, and that's really obviously quite concerning. On the other hand, I do think there's something really fascinating about opening up the realm of visual expression to people who don't have a native expertise in the tools to say things within the visual medium. From maybe a little bit more philosophical point of view, I think it's really fascinating how that

changes our relationship with text and how we use language. You know, I see a lot of like prompt tutorials and prompt masterclasses coming out now that I find kind of charming. I've even found some prompts for my own work, which, which I find actually really flattering and strange. So I think we're really in a place where it's good to suspend judgment and really think about the harms that these systems can enable when deployed widespread and how to protect artists en masse while also not stifling the creative expression of what feels to me a bit like a new medium. So I think for a lot of people, it's arguably the most they've interacted with art in a long time and it's the thing that's going to bring them into it.

And I think one of the, I guess, complaints that I see the most often about it is the idea of copyright and as you said, you're an artist that you've seen your own prompts being mentioned in it. Your work when you're using AI or this kind of technology is trained off of your own work and there's lots of other of these kind of tools that you can train off of an specific form of work or work that's been agreed on to be used. I'm just curious what your view is on that side of things. It's interesting. I have in my mind things like the writer's strike and I have in my mind. I saw this new Marvel poster for a TV show where they've used AI systems to generate the poster or something like that. I think it's important to protect people and creators

first and foremost. I think that the issue of copyright is sort of, it has, some of these tensions has its roots and remix culture already. So I don't think these are necessary. new concerns, but I do think they've reached a bit of an emotional peak with how we think of AI. I do think that when you write a prompt based on a certain artist style and then you attempt to, you know, sell it on your, as your own, I think that's obviously quite unadvisable and, and I think that's quite exploitive. And I think there should be regulations in place to, to protect people. I think it's possible to play around with the tool without, you know, taking away jobs from artists and be excited about the technology to explore it in a new way and use the interface of text and image to understand the technology itself more deeply as an entry point for that type of knowledge. I think that's very possible without selling someone's work as your own.

And I think what AI, some of these AI systems do right now is they may. it much more immediate, that replication, but a lot of these issues have its history in digital replication and, yeah, and remix culture already. So I think it's looking to the history of that work I'm thinking about Lawrence Lessig's and some of his research, which has been going on for quite a long time. I want to go back to your own work. Something that I find quite interesting is the, as we've said about, the mediums that you're using, whether that's the robot arms or any of the other technologies that you're using, do you consider them to be, I guess, more like a paintbrush or some form of tool, or do you consider it to be, I guess, a collaborator to your work?

That's a question that I think about a lot, and I've been asked over the past few years. And I really, I think what feels collaborative about the process is that the system works through a series of overlaid marks that invites improvisation and spontaneity. It kind of reacts to my physical presence in the space. So in that way, it is, and I'm not in control of the next jester. It's not a pre-sequenced set of positions, especially, I think that's especially noted in. in the biofeedback generation of the project. So I think in that way, as I'm making and co-creating on the canvas in a format that invites uncertainty,

I don't feel that way with a violin or paintbrush because it doesn't have that interactive component. I think the sort of shared gestural relational agency, lowercase A, is really at the heart of my heart of my navigation with these painting collaborators. When I do say that, I think there's a misconception that I am extending like human sanctions to the robotic unit,

which while I do anthropomorphize in my own way, I'm not making claims about the sentions of the arm as equivalent to my own, but there is a behavioral inner working that I respond to that has evolved with me over time as the data set expands, as my own coding ability and ability to build robots expands. So there is an evolutionary component to it that is not stepping into the realm of AGI and consciousness. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes.

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Today, in partnership with French acoustic specialist focal, name audio creates systems that deliver exceptional sound, and unforgettable listening experiences at home. Try it for yourself at a focal powered by name boutique. Visit focal powered by name.com for more information. It's interesting that you touch on that concept, because one of the things I wanted to ask you is, I'm sure you're familiar with the art project.

I can't help myself. It's this large robot arm that's, I guess, constantly scooping this thick liquid back until, you know, spills out again and it just does that over and over again forever. It's very metal. Yeah, it is very metal. And it is often described as oddly sad. It's almost like, you know,

the Siphyas pushing the boulder up the hill for it to come back down kind of thing. And as someone who works so closely with robots and AI, and as you were saying about this concept of consciousness, do you ever get that sense that they feel alive or that kind of same feeling? I have to say, I do. And I've questioned that. I've interrogated that, especially during the lockdown, not a lot going on in anyone's life, except I don't think anyone had a studio full of robotic units to kind of. interact with. And I think it makes me feel in awe about the ability of the human mind to anthropomorphize. It's not exactly the same, but I think people feel that way about their pets. They have, you know, they have, they have touchstones that they imbue so much meaning and, and sentience and

connection to. And I think that's really, I think that's really beautiful. So yeah, I've definitely, I call the project drawing operations unit generation 1 to 5, we're in our fifth generation now, but it was first drawing with Doug and it was a way to bring a sense of playfulness. And yeah, levity and personality to, yeah, to the work and the research, which has been a real gift, I think. It's often said that I guess AI's biggest weakness when it comes to art is its lack of creativity. you know, we're giving it the creativity and it's just pumping out what it thinks is its best version of that. But do you think there is, I guess,

this sense of we could learn something from more data-driven art? You know, that's a great question. I think a lot of, you know, what I've learned from the past of my time practicing in the way that I have, this art practice in the way that I have, is that these systems can act as creative catalysts for one's own imagination, one's own thinking about the role of technology, thinking about the evolution of art. I definitely think there's so much to glean from that type of output that I find

has been a real cornerstone for how I think about painting and the post-human subject, and how I think about art and machines and what it means to extend through a technological apparatus. You know, that's all been very stimulating. And I think there's definitely, even in my engagements with more recent generative AI systems and chatGBT, definitely this sort of co-piloting and partnering that can be really exciting. We've spoken a lot about, I guess, two main formats being robots and artificial intelligence, but as you said at the start, I mean, you've used, I mean, every tool under the sun in your work. So I mean, I'm intrigued with the idea of, I guess, something like you've used EEG data before

or things like mixed reality. And I think it's very unique approaches to art that maybe aren't done so often. And I think there's this question of, A, how you've got to that point of thinking that's how you want to operate, and B, how you think arts evolving when it's addressed through these different technologies that aren't maybe addressed so often. That's a great question. I think when I was working with EEG and meditation as kind of a driver for how is exploring the robotic mark in a project called assembly lines, that's Generation 5 based on assembly. in spectrality. I kind of, and it must go back to trying to reconcile, you know, my interest in computers and violin. I wanted to combine those two influences to create something that could help me understand both in a deeper way. I've been meditating and pursuing and growing a meditation

practice for the past few years. And I was thinking about how sometimes I struggle with the lack of feedback, which, you know, maybe a more traditional meditator would say that that's part of it. But I really wanted something that I could feel maybe in a more embodied way. So I or just sort of work with my senses and meditation and stillness in a way. So I built Generation 4 and 5, which is based on that biofeedback to enhance my alpha waves. I read that when one is in a creative flow state or one is in a heightened state of meditation, it's readable by a machine through an EEG headset and heightened alpha waves. And I thought if I could use that as a kind of hit point for robotic painting and interaction,

then I would get that kind of call and response I was looking for that might be able to enhance my ability to reach that state. So that configuration with these systems is something, you know, I find really compelling. I think it really sparks my imagination about a variety of different things. And I like that it doesn't take away any of the joy of meditation for me or painting, but it addresses it. It's a different lens through which to look at established traditions like meditation and painting that I feel maybe call into question and also. potentially evolve what it could be. So you've got a show coming out posted at the Hofa Gallery in London. Obviously, we've spoken a lot about your previous work and what you've done in the past. But could you talk a little bit about this project, what explores and I guess your work going forward? Absolutely. So I'm really very excited about this upcoming show during freeze in, gosh, in about a week. The show is called Relational Gestures at Hofa, and it showcases a variety of my artistic and research experiments in different mediums over the past few years. I love it because it really, I think the

studies and the artifacts of my processes are shown for the first time together, but also they're kind of laid bare for interpretation. I really do think that between the painting artifacts, the VR experiments, the sort of dimensional acrylic pieces, the AR sculptures. I think you can really see, I hope you can see a little bit of what I've been trying to push with my engagements with these collaborations and with these processes that are, I think, hopefully it'll maybe surprise people a little bit because I think seldom do you see so much of these potentially highly technical processes and pieces. being shown in hopefully what is a very artful and very analog way.

I think what I'm excited about is the kind of simplicity that these artifacts really take on. And I think, you know, the show's title relational gestures has, for me, a few different layers of meaning. Obviously, this is my gestures permeated through very different mediums. my gestures in relation to the robotic arm and the AI system. But I think it's sort of a love letter to the relational aspects of art and research and the many different ways of combining those shared loves and modes of inquiry. So yeah, very excited for people to come by and experience the work in person. It's safe to say that, you know, AI and art is this very interlinked now.

but in the same way as, I guess, I don't know, the printing press before was an advancement art. You know, it's not exactly a huge surprise to see something like this happen. But I think there's this huge focus on AI as the involvement in art. As someone who's involved in about all of these different future technologies and their involvement in art,

do you think it's less so a focus on AI and just all of these different methods and that people should branch out from AI, or is that just the obvious route to be going down when it comes to art? I'm glad you raised that question, actually. I think there's the idea of an AI system, an AI, I think, is still in its infancy. There's a long history of these developments, obviously, but I do think we're still, you know, we're still building a lot of these systems and tools.

And what I would, I think when it becomes kind of dystopian is they see, a tool in a certain way that design in a way that feels like it can really disrupt and automate away human labor. But the reality is that these technologies are built by human beings. And I think there's something about encouraging that expansion of imagination through an expansion of what thinking about what AI is and can be. And, you know, the human subjects role within that. I think in all the works, you know, my, my authorship and hopefully my creative process and energy is really intertwined and foregrounded in the work. So hopefully it can be a little bit of a reminder that, you know, that we engage with these systems in a multiplicity of ways. And it's that engagement and

exploration that's important. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius. That was Sugan, Chal. talking about the future of the art world. The Instant Genius podcast is brought to you by the team behind BBC Science Focus magazine, which you can find on sale now in supermarkets and newsagents, as well as on your preferred app store. Alternatively, you can come and find us online at sciencefocus.com.

This podcast is sponsored by name, audio and focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analogue warmth. Alongside French acoustic specialist vocal, Name creates high-end audio systems combining innovation with craftsmanship, so you can listen to music, just as the artist intended. Discover more at name audio.com.