Instant Genius - Dean Burnett: What’s going on in the teenage brain?

Episode Date: November 21, 2019

Why are teens so emotional? Why won’t they listen when adults depart their worldly knowledge? Why won’t they tidy their rooms? Well, there are plenty of parenting books out there that attempt to answer these questions, but in the new book Why Your Parents Are Driving You Up the Wall and What To Do About It (£8.99, Penguin) by neuroscientist, comedian and science writer Dean Burnett, for the first time, it’s teens who are getting an insight into their parents’ minds. The book is all about reverse parenting, and offers teens an answer to why their parents are always dragging them out of bed, why they’re so obsessed with asking ‘How was school?’ and other common complaints. He speaks to BBC Science Focus editorial assistant Amy Barrett. Subscribe to the Science Focus Podcast on these services: Acast, iTunes, Stitcher, RSS, Overcast Let us know what you think of the episode with a review or a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts. Listen to more episodes of the Science Focus Podcast: Bill Bryson: What should we know about how our bodies work Are Generation Z our only hope for the future? – John Higgs Randall Munroe: How do you find the worst solution to any problem? What we got wrong about pandas and teenagers How emotions are made – Lisa Feldman Barrett The neuroscience of happiness – Dean Burnett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com to learn more. But I think when it comes to conflict and arguments, there's always a drive to find someone to blame. Or, like, just be a more honest, someone else to blame. Like, it's not my fault, it's X, Y, Z. And teens do get, you know, they get in the neck more than they should, like,

think. And they are, you know, they can be very disrespectful, rebellious and, you know, disobedient and lazy and stuff like that. But that's, so can most adults, if we're being totally honest. You're listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team, with the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print, and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com will look out for us in your app store. Hi, I'm Alexander McNamara, online editor at BBC Science focus. This week, we're chatting to neuroscientist and best-selling author Dean Burnett about the teenage brain. Why are teens so emotional? Why won't they listen when we adults depart our

worldly knowledge? And why won't they tidy their rooms? Well, there are plenty of parenting books out there that attempt to answer these questions, but for the first time, it's teens who are getting an insight into their parents' minds. Dean's latest book is called Why Your Parents Are Driving You Up the Wall and What to Do About It, and It's All About Reverse Parenting. It offers teams an answer to why their parents are always dragging them out of bed, where they're so obsessed with asking how with school and other common complaints. He speaks to BBC Science Focus editorial assistant Amy Barrett. A head of publication of why your parents are driving you up the wall and what to do about it,

can you tell me a little bit about who this book is for? Ostensibly and officially, it's for 11 to 16-year-olds who are finding that they're having a bit more of a tricky time with their parents than they used to. very common phenomenon, amongst most older children and teens. You know, parents have been a bad rock of your life for a long time, and suddenly you find yourself argue with them a lot more. And it's an explanation of that, essentially. But unlike pretty much every other book,

which addresses this topic and subject, it's for the child and teen who explain to them why their parents are being difficult and belligerent, because a lot of the time that is the case, and that's something that's never actually acknowledged. I think that's an important oversight that needs to, be corrected. So that's officially what the book is aimed at, but unofficially, I think it's for anyone who ever actually was a teenager, really, because we've all been through that part of your life

when you find yourself batting heads a lot with your parents or authority figure or guardians or whoever it happens to be. And I certainly found it quite cathartic to write about and understand why that was all happening. So it's for anyone who is a teenager, was a teenager, or has teenagers in a broader sense. So pretty much anyone, really, I don't limit myself. And what inspired you to write this kind of guide for teenagers? Well, I could give you some spiel about, you know, the sign of the times and intergenerational disputes being quite prominent right now. And I know the very strong political divides between the younger and older generations. The environmental aspects, you know, Greta Thunberg is the leading voice of climate change.

It's only 16. So right now we're at a very, very sort of important point in history where, you know, the older generation and the younger generation are actually perhaps more distant from each other than they've ever been. And something which addresses that, at least helps people understand it, could be helpful. And I think it's an important thing to consider right now. But if I'm being completely honest, it was actually my editor, Jamie, who first approached my agent via me, then me, and then said, I got this idea for a reverse parenting book. Would you like to write it? I thought, yes, yes, I would. And that's pretty much what happened. So Jamie's a very good guy. He has his own book.

It's a book of a, it's called What I Lick Before Your Fates. It's a book of haikus written by dogs. So he isn't outside the box thinker, shall we say. That's so interesting that the kind of the idea came from him, but then you kind of, did you put your own spin on it? Oh, very much. It's literally just his idea, like how what we did a parenting book, but which told teens that handled their parents.

That was essentially his contribution to the process. But it was his idea. And as soon as I heard it, I thought, oh, I wish I'd had that idea. But then he said, well, you can still write it. this, I will. You just watch me and I did. Yeah, so it was very nice to have that presented to me. I'm always one with, I like, I love writing stuff, but I've always struggled with the initial concept and idea, so to have it just handed to me is, that's like half the work done for me. It really, oh, good, I can do that, definitely. And I did. And it was like something I've, you know,

as soon as it was presented to me, it was a case of, I didn't know it, but I sort of, I've always wanted to write that. And I think a lot of my work previously has been, uh, gleaned, towards aiming at teens and saying, look, you're not the ones who are always automatically at fault. You're not the ones who are just being constantly belligerent and angry. It's a lot of adults have problems too, and that's never admitted. So I've tried to do that with my blogs and articles and stuff, but this is the first time I ever actually had the, you know, the opportunity or he was given the ability to focus on that entirely for the length of a full book. And it was very, very rewarding to do so. And do you have sort of teenagers

yourself? You mentioned you have a daughter in the book, don't you? I do, yes, but she's only three. She's probably turned four, and my son is seven. So I don't have teens, but I do have two siblings from my parents' second marriages who are 19 and 17. So I've seen that up close quite recently. And I just remember, you know, being a teen and how difficult it was and how, you know, people say teens are disrespectful. But I don't remember ever being respected for anything when I was a teen. I think that's a very common oversight though or something. People don't recognize that respect isn't just automatic. It's earned. And if you look at the wider world, Italy, the lot of the adult generation aren't really doing great things and aren't really doing things which would qualify for respect,

if you want to be completely blunt about it. So, yeah, I do think it's a common problem. It's one that's been gone back thousands of years for as long as humankind has existed. And I do have friends with teens and younger children. and I've consulted with them and asked about them and social media allows you to obviously see what teens are saying and what's important to them.

And I did quite a few conferences too last year. Did the Cranley Tech and Teen Mental Health Conference. So it was very much up to speed on the current understanding. So I like to think it's still well researched even they don't have direct hands-on experience with dealing with teens. But of course, now that once my children do read their teens, they'll have this book. So just read that as fine.

Leave me alone. and I can hopefully skip a few arguments down the line. Is there any sort of thing in this book, anything that you really wish you'd been told when you were a team? Yeah, it's pretty much in the first passage. It's almost like the linchpin of my attitude for this sort of thing. It's a very vivid memory. It's either GCSE results day or A-level results day

back in the late 90s when I did those things. I was going to say like mid-2000s to turn out, downplay my age of it, but that's really not going to get away with that. I've looked like 40 since I was 16, so it doesn't come easily to pretend that I'm younger than I am. But yeah, it was because I remember being in school and it's like the later Blair years and the idea of just leaving school and going straight into a job, that was long gone and tuition fees were coming in and, you know, people were emphasised on these exams are important now. You know, you can't be guaranteed a lifetime job. You can't just walk into an apprenticeship like people in the 70s could expect to do.

There were no, like I'm from a mining community, so the mines were all shut down, the local factories were all full up. So there was no guarantee of a job, as people, the older generations seemed to think was the case. And we were constantly told, you know, you must do good well in exams. And I'm from a rough school, and it wasn't particularly scholastically highly achieving. So I was one of the smarter kids. And, you know, they pretty pushed us to do as well as we could, because obviously, you know, school results and exam tables and stuff is important to them.

So we were just constantly pressured to do well. in exams and work hard and work around the clock and I don't have any sort of academic family to lean on. So it was hard. It was hard work to be constantly told these exams are vitally important. You're only a teenager. You don't know why. But, you know, if you don't do well here, you're essentially, you know, flummox the

rest of your life. And it was a big deal to do these exams and do them well. We were constantly pressured and told to do this. And we all did and we all worked hard. There was us who did exams. And then exam results days published. And, you know, it's one of those days of record. high marks across the country,

which is good, you know, like the highest levels of eight C grades. And it was sort of really encouraging and pleasant to go to know, like, we have done well. And you're going to turn on the news. The first thing you see is someone like Michael Howard or Ant Wittaker or John Prescott or ever saying, well, it just shows that exams are too easy now, doesn't it?

And it was quite a kick in the teeth, you know, to be a teenager, been told by the adult generation, your superiors, your authority figures, you must do well in these exams. if you don't work hard, you are doomed constantly for months on end, and to do that, and to achieve the results that they were hoping we'd get, and to immediately be told with people around the country that, no, you haven't succeeded, you're just a bit dumb, so because obviously these are too easy now.

And that's, like, completely pulled the rug out from an interest. And that's always stuck me as in, you said, oh, we must invest in the children's future, but you just deny them one, you deny them as sort of any sense of respect or self-worth, the first opportunity you get. And that's something which has been a constant, I think. and that's, you know, it's been a bugware of mine pretty much all my life. It's one of the things you're told you'll understand when you're older. Well, I am older now and I don't understand it.

I don't think he's right. And I would to try and do something to remedy that. And that's sort of way my attitude for this sort of books I suppose from. And what is it that's actually different about the teenage brain compared to the fully grown sort of adult's brain? Loads of things. And that's something I don't, again, that's nothing people don't seem to realize because I think there's a sort of approach where you're a child until you're in the teenage teens you start acting a bit more independent, a bit more assertive, a bit more rebellious, and suddenly you should be treated

like an adult. And that's not fair or correct. The adolescent phase of brain development is a distinct phase all by itself. First of all it's losing a lot of neurological connections because as you're a child, it's absorbing pretty much everything. And you know, like all the, But some estimate, say, from age zero to two, your brain is forming a million new connections every second, which is an incredible amount of data gathering of absorption. And that's sort of not at that phenomenal rate, perhaps, but it carries on until we hit adolescence. And that's when the brain sort of stops and takes stop and says, right, we've got all this,

all this information. How much this do we actually need? Because one example is using the book, it's like getting a brand new smartphone. And then you're so excited, you just fill up with every single app. meme and download you can think of, you get your hands on. And it's fun for a while, but eventually that phone's going to become pretty useless because, you know, you're trying to find something basic like the calculator or the watch and you have to scroll through 50 pages of apps and like, I can't find anything anymore. And it's not about how much information is in the brain. It's all

about efficiency. And adolescence is when the brain starts becoming more efficient. It clears where the junk you don't need. There's a process called pruning where lots of synapses which are never been used more than once are sort of just flushed away in the resources. for them are taken elsewhere. So that's like what's happening in the broad scheme. But it's an intriguing prospect in that the human brain is so diverse, there's so many different parts and so many new bits on top of old bits and the fundamental bits and top of higher functioning bits.

But the more complex parts, like the frontal cortex with all the thinking and self-control and, you know, like forward planning happens, that's so much more sophisticated than the more basic bits that it takes a lot longer to mature. There are some estimates that and that doing the front part of your brain with all the higher thinking happens. That doesn't finish developing until like your mid-20s, as opposed to like the more central parts of the brain, which are older and more fundamental, which control things like emotions and impulses and risk-taking and sort of fundamental drives. They're a lot older and more primitive. They're not primitive. This little brain bits are very complex, but comparatively so.

And they take less time to mature. So they are as efficient as possible in your early teens. and the parts of your brain which control your emotions and your temperament that's still developing well into your 20s. So adolescents have this period where they can control their emotions and they regularly do, but it's a lot harder for them to do so and the emotions they experience are far more intense as a result.

So the comparison I use, like if you think of emotions and sort of, you know, brief responses like that as music, your parents are, they're listening to the cast stereo with their emotions, like it's just they, you know, in the background. whereas teens are like sat next to the speaker at a big concert. The emotions are a lot harder to suppress control or just, you know, keep under wraps. But they're constantly told to do that. Stop acting out.

Stop, you know, stop being dramatic. Behave yourself. You're being stupid. You're being ridiculous. But this is the time when they're supposed to learn how to do all that stuff. So if you suppress an emotion and so you make them, like, keep quiet and keep still and never do anything, the brain never develops that ability. And it does cause, you know, serious problems down the line.

And we see that with adolescent mental health things and, you know, like male suicide rates where men are actually, you know, can't express themselves and are unable to keep bottling things up. And that has really bad long-term effects. And so these are things which should be more widely known. And that's sort of something I'm slowly working towards myself. Absolutely. And how do we know so much about teenagers' brains and how they differ? A lot of different studies have shown this. so we have the technology to look at what's going on inside a working brain now.

And it's really quite intriguing that it isn't just a human thing. And that's something which I find really quite fascinating, in that any sort of species, which is social in nature or a mammal species, which has a social life, you know, it's a social creature which groups together in family groups and communities, they show similar patterns of behavior during their adolescence, even like rats do it and chimps do it,

where the adolescents are the ones who are just sort of reaching, physical and sexual maturity, they become more risk-taking. They actually do wander off further from the group, the tribe and everything. So you can see in animals too, like that allows us to extrapolate a lot of what's going on there. But you can, you know, we have tissue samples and things like that. Now you can see scans to show that like a small child's brain is actually a lot more connections in there than there are in the adolescence brain. Because the adolescent is when they're being sort of flushed, essentially. They're getting rid of all these superfluous things to make things more efficient.

So there's been a lot of science into it over the year. There's been a lot of science into it over the many years now. One of the books I recommend is Sarah Jane Blake Moore's inventing ourselves. She's like one of the leading figures in developmental brain research and adolescent and things like that. And she's got a book all about it, which explains it in a lot more detail than I go into because hers is for adults and mine's not. And as a result, it has to be a bit more friendly, a bit less detailed. But yeah, so there's plenty of data out there which shows and supports this. And the fact that teens need more sleep, they're always tired all the time because because of all this has gone on in their brain, all the huge developments and overhauls, they need more downtime to recover and maintain their extra busy brain.

And they don't get it because obviously the rules are, you've got to be in school by 9 and so many parents are, you're kicking them out of bed 8am. So you're wasting the best part of the day. And that's actually really quite unhelpful in terms of their development. And there's been some schools in America which have experimented with a late start time, like 10 a.m., so give teen students an extra hour in bed. And they should be reported, sort of drastically increased, you know, academic scores and like behavioral complaints. So just, you know, teens find it a lot easier to function when they have the sleep they need. And you can see this from, you know, in major studies too. So there is a lot of data out there about this, but it just, you know, it doesn't quite conform to the stereotype of teens.

are rebellious and snarky and they don't care about anything that a lot of adults who control the news seem quite quite comfortable with maintaining and I personally disagree with that so I'm trying to again try to tackle that with my output it seems like a lot of things that are maybe built or design with teens in mind are actually built to the specifications of an adult's brain yeah a lot of time that can be the case there's a lot of concern right now about smartphones and social media and stuff and how it's potentially quote unquote damaging for a developing brain

and I mean there's lots of evidence well actually I'll say it again there's there is evidence out there there's not lots of it because things like smartphones and social media they are relatively new in the grand scheme they've only been around for a decade or so and that's not really enough time to don't see any long-term effects

we're talking long-term human lifespan which is like 70, 18, 90 years now So we don't know for certain yet, but of the evidence there is, it doesn't seem to be a great deal which says that these things are actually damaging to a child development. It's largely just, that's a largely scaremongering and suspicion. But yeah, like a lot of the technology out there is, of course, invented by adults and for adults. And just to imply this to teens is a little bit more, you know, there's a lot of overlap because teens can't function at adult levels in most of them many ways. But a lot of things which, you know, adults get together, talk to other adults about what teens like and they give them something. And that isn't really quite how it works a lot of the time.

Like you're trying to remember your own teens and, you know, extrapolate from that. But because of the way the brain works, we have a far more, should we say, you know, optimistic recall of our childhood because the negative memories tend to be, they tend to fade quicker than the positive ones. And people get quite nostalgic for childhood because, you know, it's comparatively less stressful than things are now. But it doesn't really mean that it wasn't stressful, just that, you know, you have a sort of false comparison. And as a result, too, you get a lot of stuff aimed at teens, which sort of misses the mark because it's written or created by adults for talking to other adults and extrapolating widely. And I think I mentioned the book that so many adults seem to approach teens as a problem as if, like, they are mindless obstacles, like cows on a motorway, which is unhelpful, I think, because they're not. teens are fully grown, not fully grown, obviously, but they are fully conscious, very smart humans

who can see what's being said about them and take a reaction to it, and they often do it, rightly so, a lot of the time. So, yeah, you think when you have things created for teens without teen input, then you will have things which teens won't necessarily like. And I think that's just fairly logical. And how much of our character and our personality is set during our teenage years? Well, obviously quite a lot in that the things you learned in your teens will stick with you for a long time. In terms of actual brain development, some people point that the evidence suggests age four is like a key age for laying down the fundamentals of how your mind works.

It's like when the brain's finally sorted itself out enough to start functioning as an individual. You know, it's a small child individual, but an individual nonetheless. And that's when things like personality and preferences start to come to the fore. But during your teens is when you learn, obviously you undergo a substantial development at that time. Like you, a lot of your baselines are established there too. Like, you know, what your sexual preferences are is an obvious case. Because an obvious example, because obviously you're flooded with these hormones, giving you strange new feelings you never had before and strange long institute can't quite head around,

which you would learn about in school, but people aren't allowed to do that apparently because that's upsets a lot of parents, which is, you know, disconcerting. And, you know, so there's that as well. But there's some studies which show that because when your teens, when your emotions are most powerful, like when you're, they're fully developed and the rest of your brain sort of isn't, the things which affect you as a teen will stay with you for the longest time in the rest of your life. And particularly keen music apparently, that's why so many people think, oh, music today is rubbish. It was much better when I was young. But it's because when you're a teen, things like music, they hit you at an emotional level far more profoundly. than they do as an adult. And nothing will, because the adult brain is more mature

and more sort of this set, nothing will really hit that same level of, you know, intoxication or emotional stimulation as it does when you're a teen. So your preferences you get in your routine, they are the ones that tend to stick with you, right? Because everything else doesn't match up in comparison when you're an adult, because that time of your life when the brain is that responsive,

it is over. And so, like, the things that you like in your routine, you probably will like forever. And that's, you know, that's one reason it's a key age. That's really interesting. Yeah, it is a case of the music. Everyone will say the music in their teenage years was better,

but it's actually more just the way we process the music. Yeah, I mean, there are some study to show that modern music has gone more commercial, so it's more repetitive and more simple if you look at the acoustic analysis and stuff. But I say 50 years' time, you will get the crusty music doing this saying, oh, the 2010s, that was the era for music. And on this, you know, we had Mamba No. you didn't have that and that sort of thing will probably be happening and it's quite it's quite weird to think that but that is almost certainly what will occur and at what point do you stop being a teenager well it's actually an interesting question is something which is actually quite a contentious one because we have always like these age limits or like these minimum ages like 18 to be able to vote to be able to drive and own a car and

by a house and things like that. That's when you're an official adult in UK and a UK law. But, you know, like I said, the part of your brain, which is the most, the most sensible and forward thinking is still maturing into your mid-20s. So, you know, that's, you're not fully developed yet as an adult. But in biological sense, you're an adult as soon as you are able to reproduce. So as soon as you hit puberty, that's when you're an adult in the biological sense. So when you're like 11, 12 or 13.

and I think most people would strongly disagree that people that age are not fully grown adults. So that's just biological adulthood. But psychological, mental and social adulthood, that's actually a tricky subject. And it varies a lot because the age of consent is a particularly salient one because it varies from country to country, which is intriguing in itself.

But I think in this country, it's also really inconsistent in that the age of consent is 16. So at the age of 16, you can legally have sex with someone, should you want to do so long as it's all done. They're of the right age two. And that's completely legal. But you can't actually look at anything sexual, like anything pornographic or explicit until you're 18. So you can have sex to 16, but you can't see it until you're 18. And that seems that clearly that's not, that doesn't match up. How is it meant to happen? 16-year-olds, do they all get blindfolds? And, you know, that seems like that would be counterproductive in many

ways. And so you can see how there are, you know, it's obviously been tried and error over many, many years of society and observations and things. But exactly when you start being an adult is a, it's a very fluctuating and very inconsistent point, which no one really seems to agree on. And you mentioned sort of Greta Thunberg and, you know, teenage activists. A lot of the criticism against things like the school strike for climate is that, you know, they're not, you know, fully formed adults who can have these opinions. But why, how do you think that teenagers are handling this extra pressure the society is putting on them? I think that, well, they handle it surprisingly well, I say.

I mean, you see all these teenage protests. There's nowhere, actually, there's never been any sort of controversy or violence or clashing like that. And if you want to look at for like the angry violent protests, you know, look at the, some of the recent vote leave protests with all the 50 plus year olds are getting into tangles of the police. That's quite telling, I think, personally. But I think it's really good that the teens are reacting this way. I think people sort of demonize social media saying it's corrupting. But it does provide a strong sense of community.

You can go out there and find other people who agree with you. That's not necessarily always a good thing because plenty of people agree with bad things. And that's a problem of me. If you have some wacky belief and find other people who agree with you, and that's normally enough for people to be convinced it's true. but that's a side issue. But there are, you know, it's good to see that they're reacted as maturely as they are. I mean, I think you could forgive a teenager for looking at, you know, the wider adult world and saying, well, they're clearly not doing what they need to do.

So it's up to us now. And that's, that's a fair conclusion. And, you know, it's going to be more stressful, but it also gives them a sense of more control, a sense of, you know, taking, taking the issues under their own wings and then being responsible for them. That's really good. But I will say, like, the criticism of teens, like, they're only young, they don't know, they're adults yet, they can't make these decisions. That logic was strangely lacking when, like, you're 15-year-old ran away to join ISIS and married a terrorist. Like, she knew what she was doing. She's so fully conscious, so she should be punished as an adult.

So if you're 15, you're completely conscious and you're fully adult enough to be tried as a terrorist. But if you're 16, you haven't going to clear what you're doing, and you shouldn't be leading a climate revolution. So, you know, it's clearly more ideological, it's case of if they agree with me, then they're, no, if they disagree with me, then they're too young to know what they're doing. They do something I don't agree with and they're completely old enough and should be punished as a result. So you can see it's not exactly, you know, completely consistent and logical as a chance to take most of the time. Are teenagers now better people than, say, you or I were when we were teens? Well, I can't speak for you, but I don't know. I think about your routine.

and I was a lovely boy. But there is some evidence showing that it's going that way. And teenagers now, perhaps I still count as a millennial, be all accounts. I'm just on the cusp. That's one of the very first millennials. I'm not sure if that term is still valid anymore because I look like I'm closer to death than not. But yeah, there are some details to show like previous adult generations that teens now are, they're not having as much, for example, casual sex.

and things like that back from, we're talking about the 60s, the age of Aquarius to Free Love Era and things like, you know, they are being more aware of things like consent and restraint, and they're not drinking so much, and they're far more conscious of mental health issues and a far more, you know, open and accepting of things like gender issues and sexuality and things like that. And you can argue that's something that's been happening in a long time,

the things like the Flynn effect, that every generation gets slightly smarter than the last because there's just more information available and I would argue that the internet does probably accelerate to that somewhat because you can access the information anyway right now. And again, there are social factors. If teens aren't having as much casual sex or doing as much drugs or drinking as much, is it because they're more health conscious or more sort of savvy or because of the financial situation, they're all still living at home a lot more.

And as a result, you can't do those things when your parents are breathing down your neck constantly. So it does, the evidence suggest that yes, like the modern-day teens aren't. more switched on and savvy than the previous generations. But there's going to be a lot of factors which contribute to that sort of data. So I say I'd say a tentative yes, but I wouldn't say quote me on it. And why is it so important that teenagers realize that it's not that their brains are wrong, but it's also not that their parents' brains are wrong. Why is it so important to have a book like this to communicate that?

Well, I think it's a big help to know that your parents aren't this tyrannical authority figure I always think they're always right. Most parents are winging it just as much as anyone else. And no, they can't give that impression when you're a young child because that's terrifying to think that the person who was in charge of your whole life is just blathering along blindly like every other adult. It can be why parenting is so stressful. But I think when it comes to conflict and arguments, there's always a drive to find someone

to blame or, like, just be a more honest, but someone else to blame. Like, it's not my fault, it's X, Y, Z. And teens do get, you know, they get in the neck more than they should, I personally think. And they are, you know, they can be very disrespectful, rebellious and, you know, disobedient and lazy and stuff like that. But that's, so can most adults, if we're being totally honest. And that's not necessarily something that they are ownership of. So I think, obviously, when you're coming from, when you have two people coming from very different perspectives or different sort of points of view, to know that the other person isn't being belligerent just for the sake of it, don't.

just because they want to be dominant, because they have their own things they're dealing with, too. I think that's a – that can be a big help to know that – well, this isn't just a personal attack against me. Like, they're struggling with this issue, too. And I can't understand what they're coming from, but maybe they can't understand where I'm coming from because it's not like they're refusing to. It's a biological thing. It's a natural thing.

I think that's hopefully could take the pressure off and sort of thing like, well, we are arguing a lot, but we're both in a situation where we can't quite make that leap. for the able to agree with the other person. And there are reasons for that beyond stubbornness and, you know, personal inclinations or just, you know, a desire to annoy you someone. So I think it takes the pressure off both sides, the argument, which could, you know, could help resolve things a bit faster, maybe. Would you say there's anything that's changed about your own parenting style

after writing this book? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Again, my kids are still too young yet, and so I can't actually put much of into practice. But I think the communication thing has become a lot easier. Like I've noticed a lot more about me getting snappy at my own kids. And I realize what they're not actually doing anything different or wrong. It's because I'm sort of a bit overworked right now with the book,

ironically enough, I suppose. I was trying to get that deadline done. And I'm being less patient with them than I normally would. And they don't know what I'm doing. Like I'm just at my garden office by myself. And they don't see the work I'm doing. And they just treat me like daddy's here again. and I need to be

more conscious of that. They're not doing anything to wind me up on purpose. They are just being children. And just because someone doing childish things at me is inconvenient right now isn't their fault

and I need to stop, I was never like, I was never a heavy-handed parent by any means, but I've been more conscious of catching myself from reacting a bit more annoyed when that's not really a fair

or valid response to me making. So yeah, I mean, I think it'll come more to, come to the form or when they are teens and when they are experiencing the things I've been looking into. But for now, it's given me a clear perspective of my own parenting, which I've found quite helpful.

Now, we decided to ask some teenagers and some parents of teens what they desperately wanted to know. I wonder if you, would you mind taking a few of their questions? Of course I will. So Josie, age 17, she asks, why do my parents do the same things they tell me not to do? For example, my mum says, don't shout through the walls, just actually come and speak to me face to face,

but she's always shouting through the walls to me. What can she do? That is a very good point. That's one thing I do bring up a lot. Parents can be completely inconsistent as well. And a lot of the time they don't realize it. There's a thing of, you know, what other people do you find annoying is because you do it and it's a part of you that you don't like.

I mean, a lot of the time it's a simple matter of not focusing constantly on being a parent 24-7. A parent's life is full of things. Lots of duties, household chores, work, and I don't know what your parents do. And they will slip sometimes. It is a lot easier for a parent just to shout and say, come here rather than run up the stairs and speak to user face and come back down again. But again, it's inconsistent. They shouldn't do that. You see this a lot with things like smartphones.

Like parents tell their kids, oh, you can't use that. It's bad for you. That device you use at the table, it's disgraceful. But then they're on theirs constantly. And it's like, well, what do you expect them to do? or things like, you know, you can't drink, it's bad for you. And then they got through two bottles of Merlo a night.

And I don't think that's really sending the right message, you know. The whole do as I say, not as I do thing, is an annoyance, especially for a teenager who is craving independence and of adult respect and isn't getting it. All you can do about it, I would say point it out. I mean, that's, I don't know what sort of racially have with your parents. If your parents are probably more prickly types, they might object to that. But, I mean, I can't be saying, you tell me not to scream to the walls, but you do it to me. So you can understand where I'm coming from.

Well, that's not ideal. And, you know, I think most parents, most parents who care about being parents would logically say that's a valid point. So I think it's important to, you know, one of the main things about being a teenager and parent, there's a lot of conflict going on. But a lot of studies show that the conflict is resolved a lot more when it turns into a dialogue. It's not like, you know, I hate you, I hate you, rah, rah, rah, that's not really good. But if you can do it at a time when you're feeling a bit more calm, like, you know, if in just in the kitchen just doing something menial, then go in and say, can I just mention this, that you time you not to do this, but you do it too.

If you can be approaching a more, you know, a calm, stress-free manner, then that's something which hopefully most parents will respond positively to because it shows you're being mature about it as well. Of course, if you scream through the walls saying, stop screaming to the walls of me, because, you know, That's probably counterproductive. But yes, I think, you know, these things are valid concerns and valid points. And if your parents, if you have a good relationship with parents or you want one, then they should be able to be raised in a calm, neutral manner. I mean, I could be completely wrong about that.

I don't know your parents. They might fly off the handle completely. But it's something which I think is worth pointing out because parents want to be consistent. And then when they're not being, they should be told that. And just because their parents doesn't mean they can't improve their parenting, I suppose. Yeah, most parents I think want to be good parents and would like to find out how to do that. And if it's coming from the teenage themselves, that can be quite useful. If it's not like a sort of demanding thing, it's a reasonable point of view.

And then that can be, I personally would think that was helpful. But again, each of their own, each of their own. Now, Jenny is a parent to four children between 10 and 18. And she says, I've been there, done it all. And I try to impart my knowledge and wisdom on them to help them, but they just don't do what I say. And why is that? It's probably because you're their parent. And at this particular point of their life, that is not what they want to hear.

That's a big part of it in that it does seem to be an evolved mechanism for making sure humans as a whole don't fall into stale and static situations. So teens are rebellious because they want their independence. They want their, you know, they want the right to decide their own lives. things like locus of control is a big part of human identity. And to have someone tell you not to do that is, you know, it's frustrating. It's thwarts a strong desire you're having because of the way your brain is developing. This idea for it. One of the problems is that the parts of your brain which process reward, feelings of pleasure,

things that make you happy, those have matured pretty quickly. So all the things which used to make you happy, like your childhood toys, like, you know, family days, the fun fair and stuff. That's, again, that's sort of like, it's sort of like trying to watch an old clip on a brand-new TV screen. You know, like it's all muddy and blurred, and it's not quite as good anymore. And you need new, more exciting things now. And unfortunately, you know, one of the most familiar things in a teen's life is their parent. And so the parents sort of go from being, you know, the center of the universe,

the main provider to Guardian or, you know, a modern who, they're more of a restrictive. force rather than an encouraging one. And so because it's the, because it's the parent who is saying it, then that automatically becomes a bit more suspect. They don't really, they don't crave, like, their parents' approval anymore. They crave it from their peers and other people. And that's, as a result, it's harder for parents to impart information, which, when it seems like being controlling. How to go around that? I mean, again, I think that's part of the reason I wrote the book in that it's, for most teens, I am a complete stranger. So if it's me telling you that and tell them they write about a lot of things,

that's hopefully a bit more useful, perhaps, a bit more conducive to being accepted as a thing. But as ever, it's something they do grow out of. Like when you hit your mature adulthood, then you sort of become, you sort of appreciate your parents more. All those tempestuous parts of teens have faded away. And you sort of listen, you think more of what your parents have said. So if it's a tricky situation,

it will pass and that's the one thing which thing is important. Don't write them off and they won't write you off and then that's a big part of it. And the parent relationship is important the rest of your life. It's not something which just fades away after your teenager. And then if anything, it goes back to being as important as it once was. But now you're like two adults who are in similar situations. So yeah, so, you know, keep at it.

The general response there, keep at it. But it's not your fault, I think. It's not like you're a terrible parent. It's not you're being born. It's just that the teen brain is automatically resistant to being elected to or controlled by parents. And, you know, unfortunately, imparting wisdom can often be perceived as you shouldn't do what you're doing. You should do what I say. And that's something which is going to be received with suspicion.

And that's unfortunate. But I guess you just keep plugging away and hopefully something else thinking. And finally, Ben has two teenagers. he says that when I was a teen I often argued a point and even if I knew I was wrong I would carry on arguing it anyway. Why is this? And what can you do when I know my daughter is now

doing the same? That's a really common thing, isn't it? At some point, the argument itself becomes sort of self-sustaining. The original focus of it isn't actually irrelevant anymore. Like it's like, I want this thing, you can't have this thing. You didn't really want it that

badly, but suddenly it becomes life or death. It's like, if I don't get this thing now, then that's it. I am going to be totally, totally at a loss for forever. And it is a common thing. It is frustrating. And I think it's important to recognize that as an adult, you say no, I know I was wrong. But when you're a teen, you don't necessarily know that. Like, the emotional response you're feeling is overwhelming the rational part of your mind, which is still developing, as you said. And that becomes tricky, tricky to handle that, to take care of all that.

So the emotions themselves become the dominant force, and therefore you're arguing with a parent, and it's not really anything to do with what the point was now. It's more about winning, about getting your way, because you feel like you're trapped in your own home. You have no rights. You have no say in what goes on.

You're completely under someone else's control, but teenagers often do get a raw deal, like you need to be more responsible. You need to do things your own way. You can clean them up to yourself, you can provide for yourself. You should get a job and stuff. But still, my house, my rules do as you're told.

Go to school, do these exams. And it's like a worst case scenario for developing teen brain a lot of the time. And therefore, any sort of victory or any chance to assert some control of their own life becomes vitally important because it happens so rarely. And that's where you get things like, you know, huge arguments over who put the wet towel down on the floor, not on the back on the rook, back on the hook. which is like what's the one of the first chapter of the book around actually that's a classic argument i remember and it's it's not you know both parents and teen report it's not anything particularly crucial it's not like

you know the wet towel on the floor is going to cause structural damage to the house which will bring the whole floor down around us it's just it's a it's a matter of principle at this point and as a result you get people who are you get people like parents and teens who will argue because it's not about what the argument's about It's about the fact that it's an attempt to control an assert dominance and stuff. And now, there's some sense of independence from the teen and some sense of control and calm for the parent, which is what they sort of used to when they were children. I know children are chaotic, more so than teens, but they were at least, at least you would, the unrecognizable authority thing for most of the time.

So there's a consistency there. I think a lot of the research to suggest that these arguments, they can be gone on and on. And even if someone's like unwilling to back down on either side, it's usually good to find something that you let you do agree on to end on that sort of note. You don't have to accept that you're right or you're wrong. But saying they're arguing about some sort of outfit that the teen wants to wear. And you say that's need, you not wear that. It's ridiculous. And they refuse to back down and you refuse to back down.

Like you could, ideally you would sort of introduce something which you do both agree on. So well, at least, you know, at least it's not about as anti-Mabel's outfit. the recent party. That was ridiculous. And then you can say, yes, we both can see that that was a terrible outfit. And that, uh, if you can inject some sort of sense of agreement, like, we are still on the same page in other ways, just that this one thing is thwartiness. That does, according to the research, at least, seem to be a helpful way of both reducing arguments and maintaining a more solid relationship because it's not about, it's, when it turns into just pure antagonism, like right versus wrong and, and will less back down, that's, that, that, that, that, that,

causes, you know, negative connections, associations between parents and teens. But if you introduce some agreement to say, I don't agree with doing this, but we both do agree on this, I know, I know you didn't tidy your room, but it did do your homework. So thanks. Well done with that. Interjecting some sort of element of positivity where you do approve of what you do agree on, that can take the edge off to the point where it doesn't necessarily become a serious problem. It is according to what date that I've seen. That was Dean Burnett talking about the teenage brain. We ought to say that Mambo No. 5 was actually released in 1999,

and it didn't trigger much of an emotional response for me, but each to their own. Dean's book, Why Your Parents Are Driving You Up the Wall and What to Do About It, is available now. For inquisitive teens and adults alike, the latest issue of BBC Science Focus is packed full of features, news and interviews. This month, we find out why we're racing back to Venus, explain near-death experiences, and find out What would happen if robots took our jobs? If you want to know more about what makes teenagers' brains tick, check out our previous episode, What We Got Wrong About Pandas and Teenagers,

where I talked to the Royal Society Book Prize winner and neuroscientist Sarah Jane Blakemore. There are loads more to listen to as well, so let us know which is your favourite with a rating or a review. Thank you for listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team. We're the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats

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