Instant Genius - Dog behaviour, with Mat Ward

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

Mat Ward, author of What Dogs Want, debunks the myths of dog behaviour, and explains how to get your pup ready for your return to the office. Once you’ve mastered the basics with Instant Genius, dive deeper with Instant Genius Extra, where you’ll find longer, richer discussions about the most exciting ideas in the world of science and technology. Only available on Apple Podcasts. Produced by the team behind BBC Science Focus Magazine. Visit our website: sciencefocus.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. This podcast is sponsored by name, audio and focal. Streaming has made music more accessible than ever, but true listening is about more than ease. It's about quality. British audio experts name audio, alongside French acoustic specialist focal, combine handcrafted tradition with cutting-edge innovation and high-end materials,

delivering digital precision with analogue warmth, so you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name, audio.com to learn more. Oh, and welcome to Instant Genius, a bite-sized masterclass in podcast form. I'm Alice Lipscomb Southwell, the managing editor at BBC Science Focus magazine. In this episode, I talk to Matt Ward, a leading dog and cat behaviorist.

He tells us all about dog behavior, explains what a waggy tail really means, and reveals how we can better help and understand our beloved pets. So, Matt, you're a dog behaviorist, and I'm sure for you in New Zealand, just like us in the UK, there's been an increase in homeworking over the past couple of years. So now dog ownership has been possible for many dog lovers. So what are some of the biggest dog-related misunderstandings or mistakes that you've come across in the last couple of years? Oh, that's a good question.

Probably the biggest one, I think, is probably this idea that dogs are trying to clamber up a status ladder to pack leadership and dominance. So sure, you know, dogs are a social species, you know, and they develop an understanding of how interactions tend to go within a relationship, and then they act accordingly within that relationship. And yes, if one dog in appearing tends to sort of defer to the other when important resources are at stake,

then pathologists tend to label the dog who gets their way, as the dominant individual within that relationship. But that's been slightly twisted to this idea that dogs are, you know, obsessed with status and trying to get to the top and usurp our leadership and everything they do is sort of linked with this, you know, them striving for dominance.

But, you know, we now know that dogs aren't thinking about their rank within a social group and trying to clamber to the top. But unfortunately, sort of this PAC leadership meme won't die. And it means that people often misattribute unwanted behaviour to, in quotation marks, dominance issues, which is a, you know, a little bit of a worry for me because it tends to blind people to what's actually driving their dog's behaviour. And it can also mean that people engage in sort of unhelpful, strange attempts to,

established dominance through, you know, through things like eating before their dog or insisting their dog always walks behind them. So they're trying to do the right thing. They've heard they need to do that, you know, no cuddles on the sofa and so forth in case your dog thinks that they're going to be, you know, that they're dominant and it's going to cause problems. Or even worse, sometimes because along with this idea of dominance, yeah, there's an understanding that that is achieved sometimes through sort of physical, you know, intimidation. And so people can muck up their relationship by trying to establish so-called PAC leadership through intimidating behavior like pinning their dog to the ground and

and so forth, you know. And so that's something that's still very prevalent out there as far as the concept goes, that we behaviourists are trying to get the, the, the message across, but it's a sticky meme that one. So what is the best way to be training your dog and making sure that, you know, you've got a happy relationship all around then? Well, that's probably the biggest one is it's human nature to, you know, to be reactive with your training rather than proactive.

So when your dog engages in a behavior that you don't want them to, it's pretty natural to react to try to stop that. And it's far more effective if you can actually, rather than trying to stop, suppress, you know, behavior you don't like to help a dog understand that behavior that's desirable for us pays off for them. And so just being proactive, investing that little bit of time and thought and trying to figure out what behavior you want, you like, and then rewarding your dog for that, or helping them succeed in as many ways you can do that. But if you can do that, help teach your dog

how to succeed rather than just reacting when they misbehave, that's probably a golden idea that I'd like everybody to think about. And the best way to do that is, you know, treating's really good as you get a really tasty treat for them or their favourite toy or gives them a big fuss when they've done something good. Absolutely. I mean, as I alluded to, of course, there's many, many things that your dog will value and, you know, foods one, play a number of things, and play for different dogs means different things. So for a collier ball throw, is incredible, you know, for a terrier, a tug is amazing. But with food, that's just a, you know, that's just a lovely unit of reward, isn't it? It's very practical. It's highly motivating. So for that reason, super useful.

Maybe one idea, though, that I find that people maybe miss out. miss a trick on is that quite often people know that a food treat is, you know, a good way to reward a dog, but they tend to sort of use bribery or luring with their food rewards. So they are like, oh, here's a biscuit, here's a bit of hot dog, come to me, sit down, do this, you know, and of course their dog will do it. But then when there isn't food on offer, you know, the dog's motivation is not the same because they're not anticipating it could pay off. Dogs are still. smart, they'll do what works, and if the expectation of, of payoff is low, their motivation will be low. So simple idea, but if we can use food rewards as surprise reward rather than a bribe or a lure,

then that's super effective because then your dog never knows, you know, you ask them to sit, there may be no reward, there may be a biscuit, there may be, you know, a bit of a hot dog or even a chew or something amazing. And so sort of viewing your rewarding history a little bit, you know, like a slot machine for your dog so that they never know if there'll be a payoff. Sure. Sometimes there's nothing. Sometimes there's a little payoff.

But who knows, there could be a jackpot. And that's very motivating for a dog. Plus, in a practical sense, it means that you're not tied to having to have food. You can ask your dog to come or sit or, you know, do any. number of things and they'll be motivated without food because they can never tell when when it's on offer. Yeah, food is super, super useful but apart from the first session or two where you're actually teaching something new where it is okay to lure, to bribe, to help your dog understand what sit means, what down means. Then moving away from that to surprise rewards is really the way

to do it. I've recently got a couple of Jack Russell puppies and I was trying to teach them sit and in Richelan's trying it with chicken and it didn't work. So they just got way to excited. Oh my God, it's chicken, it's chicken. And it was jumping up so much. So then I started using a less exciting treat and they now seem to have got the hang of it. So I think they're just not jumping at my hand all the time now. Yeah, well, that's the thing sometimes, you know, taken with a young, impulsive, excitable individuals. You want to tone down the motivation a little bit, you know, of the reward. So their brains sort of engaged and they're still thinking. In that case, and quite often with things like a stay,

then turning it down to a biscuit is more effective than pulling out big guns. But then again, if you want your dog to be motivated to come back to you when you call, particularly mid-distractions, then you want to have something of higher value. So what's some of the commonest behavioural problems that you've seen in dogs?

Probably the most common is reactivity or aggression towards unfamiliar individuals. Number one is other dogs. Number two is unfamiliar people. So this is where dogs are quite often, you know, lunging, barking, or if they get close enough, even biting, individuals that they don't know. They bump into it in the street, during the park. Most of the time, that's driven by a perception of these individuals as a threat.

So it's driven essentially by fear, but sometimes that word fear doesn't quite capture it. And then we think of a dog trembling in their boots, but it's more of that feeling that you might have if you saw a, you know, at night, you saw a man testing your window. You'd sort of get a charge of adrenaline. You'd feel under threat. There would be fear, danger, but there'd also be physiological arousal into that fight or flight state. The adrenaline would start to pump.

You might almost feel angry at that intrusion. And so that mix of sort of emotion is what often drives this behavior towards this reactivity. towards unfamiliar people and dogs. And when we're trying to deal with this, going back to that first point about being proactive rather than reactive, again, it's human nature to try to stop that behavior in the moment when it occurs,

when a dog is stressed. But it's far more effective to try to work over time to improve the way a dog feels, you know, around these triggers we call them. So essentially to reduce their perception of unfamiliar dogs. or people as dangerous to reduce their fear of them.

And the more comfortable a dog feels around these new individuals, the less stress they'll become and the less behaviourally reactive they'll be. Are some dogs truly a lost cause, or do you think any dog can be helped? No, I think any dog can be helped. You know, some issues are really challenging, you know, to eliminate. But with hard work with pretty much all issues, you can work to improve. things. So there is a spectrum, you know, some, there are some issues almost overnight, you know, long-term issues overnight that I can help my clients turn around. Other cases, it's a little bit

more of an ongoing process really to improve their behaviour as time goes on. So you touched a bit there that one of the commonest problems you see in dogs is this reactivity when they're meeting unfamiliar dogs or people. So sort of on that topic as well, how can you help an anxious dog, Maybe a dog's getting frightened by unfamiliar situations or different people. Yeah, really great question. In order to reduce fear over time, you know, to improve tolerance, in my mind there are sort of three golden concepts to do that. One is you want to avoid pushing a dog well past the point they can cope.

So the highly stressed and panicky, that can be counterproductive and actually sometimes make the fear worse or maybe make behavioural reactivity worse because it works to give them space. So that's rule number one. Avoid overwhelming them, avoid sensitizing them to what they're worried about. But rule number two is we need exposure.

We need exposure to what dogs are worried about, but at a level they can cope. And tolerable exposure plus time tends to result in a blunting off of that fear response. So that's the second key point is finding a way to have exposure to what a dog's worried about, but in a tolerable way, and over time that results in desensitization of their fear. The third sort of golden rule concept is that if we can couple wonderful outcomes with what a dog is worried about, and sometimes that can help.

So if a dog is slightly worried about something, not too overwhelmed, not too stressed, and then the presence of that thing is linked with something wonderful, and often, you know, highly tasty food is a practical way to do this, then that can help. So, for instance, if a dog's stressed about, you know, visitors to their home, if they can get a bit of space initially, you know, he popped into another room, visitor comes in and sits down, and then the dog's brought out, so the person is less of a threat, and there's a few little food treats from the dog's owner and then a few food treats dropped by the person

and ultimately handed to the dog by the person. A process like that tends to be an effective way to both manage the dog's behaviour in the moment but also to fundamentally improve the way the dog feels about visitors in the long term. So I think there's quite a lot of doggy tech coming out at the moment. If you're maybe worried about your dog when you're not at home, you have to pop out for an hour, then you can keep an eye on them using a camera or a speaker. Now, do you think that's a good thing to have?

Is it worth having this sort of Big Brother tech to keep an eye on your dog? I think that's been a great advancement for people, particularly for us, behaviourists, the ability to remotely watch our dogs, because it provides information, you know, as to how our dogs are while we're away, particularly with issues like separation-related behavior. The dog's vocalizing or behaving destructively or toileting inside when they're left to get a better idea of the pattern of that behavior during a separation. You know, that, that can really help. Remember back in the olden days, we used to set up a tape deck or or something like that and just record the sound, you know, but of course that missed lots of

other things, you know, like pacing, you know, other, other more subtle behaviours than vocalisations. So now it's fantastic. We can really monitor what's going on. And it's also useful for the behaviour modification program in that we can look to slightly push a dog's boundaries, but ensure that we're not pushing them too far. And with separations behind a solid door, you know, having that camera in the room with a dog, is really helpful. Because I imagine that's going to be quite an issue, because people who maybe have bought dogs during lockdowns, they can spend more time with them. Now, if their officers are

saying they need to go back to work, then maybe they're going to have to start working out ways to ease their dog into being left for a couple of hours at a time. Well, absolutely. I think, I mean, I think the lockdowns have been wonderful for our own dogs in many ways, and that they've had all the social contact, which is, you know, most dogs love, of course. But that probably means, particularly for dogs who may have been adopted, you know, over long periods of lockdown. And some people, you know, have been working through the whole period, almost from home, 18 months or so. And that's all a dog knows. And it's great for the dog, great for the dog guardians, and that they've got each other. And but the problem is,

is particularly with an abrupt return to work, that's quite a cliff edge to go off. And for it for a dog. As you say, it's really important for people to help their dogs learn to adjust to periods by themselves, but in a way that they can cope with, you know, and with some dogs, it really, it's quite easy, even when they haven't been left a lot. You just need to introduce some separations through the day, five minutes here, ten minutes there, half an hour there, and it goes pretty well. Other dogs, I think probably because of an innate sensitivity and the importance of social contact for them as an individual, then you really need to start off with far shorter periods, seconds,

maybe a baby gate where they can actually see you, you're not too far away and build things in a slower fashion. As with all, working with any fears or anxieties, you really need to take it at the dog's pace rather than having the same plan for everyone. But the key idea is to introduce, separations, but in a way that a dog can cope with and build towards, you know, the separations you're ultimately aiming for. So we talked then about the tech of the cameras and the speakers

and things like that. Sort of on a similar topic with doggy tech, there's a lot of videos surfacing online at the moment where people are teaching their dogs to talk using those little buttons and it'll say things like walk or food or treat or something. So are dogs really learning to talk in that sense, or are they just learning that, oh, I press that button and something good happens? Yes, good question. I think it's definitely possible. I wouldn't completely poo-poo the idea that dogs might be capable of concepts we might not give them credit for.

So that's possible. But I think looking at some of those videos that I've seen pop up on social media, what I think's going on with most of those dogs, unless that's actually undertaken by you know, researchers who really know what they're doing and they're ruling out confounding, you know, explanations for the behaviour. I think really what's going on is that these dogs have been taught to press a button and for that to get them a reward, a food treat.

So they've been taught to press one button. Then all of a sudden there's three or four or five or ten or twenty buttons there all saying different things. Maybe they've been taught that if they press the same button, they don't get rewarded, but if they mix it up a bit, then they do. So essentially, you know, and repeat a few buttons. So essentially what's happening, I think, is that dogs are learning to press a few buttons in a row, and that if they do, they'll be rewarded.

And then being human, you know, we attribute meaning to that. It's pretty hard when we hear a dog press a button that says, I want walk, mum, you know. But any pairing of two or three buttons, I suppose, can make sense to us. And with a dog looking cutely at us for the food treat, it's pretty hard not to anthropomorphise and to maybe think that they're speaking to us. But I think probably being parsimonious with it, it's more about a dog learning that pressing the buttons may pay off and then us putting those human meanings onto it.

So just think a little more about dog behaviour and helping us to understand what they're thinking. Is it true that a waggy tail doesn't necessarily mean that dog's happy? That is true. So a waggy tail does not necessarily mean a happy dog. It can be, particularly if you've got a helicopter wag or a propeller tail where you've got sort of a circular motion with the tail where the bum almost gets involved. and it's a, you know, those who have dogs know what I'm talking about. That's a happy wag. So the helicopter tail, that's a happy wag.

But a dog can be wagging their tail quite quickly, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're happy. It tends to indicate arousal. And that arousal can be driven by a number of different motivations or a combination of motivations. So, yes, it can be happy excitement. A dog can wank their tail in that way. And they're happy and excited. and throw the ball mum, great, you know. But it can also indicate maybe annoyed frustration.

It can possibly indicate sort of fear-induced arousal, you know. So, and also a combination of those, you know, emotions are not sort of mutually exclusive. So a dog can be excited and nervous at the same time, excited and frustrated at the same time. So it can be a combination of emotions dry. that tail wag, but it doesn't necessarily mean the dog's happy. Another, with the tail wag, the other things that can, you know, indicate what's going on for us. If we're trying to read things, is the speed of a wag can indicate the level of arousal,

so the faster the wag, the more aroused the dog tends to be. And also the height of the tail tells us a bit about how they're feeling. So a tail that's low or pinned under does tend to indicate a lack of confidence or fear. A tail that's held high, particularly vertically over their back, tends to indicate a dog's alert, not quite sort of keyed up and aroused. Again, there can be different reasons for that, but that's a little bit of dog tail 101 for you. So another thing that I've noticed that dogs do, as I said, I've just got these two puppies, is they'll just stare at me.

And why do dogs sometimes just sit there and just look at you? Are they just trying to figure anything out? Do they just look at you and think, I love you? Or what? Good question. It could be, it would depend on the dog, I think. But I think probably a broad explanation for that is we are a source of a lot of our dogs, you know, the good stuff in life for a dog.

and that might be cuddles, it might be the potential for a food treat, is mum going to get out the lead, when is that my favourite tuggy toy going to appear? So you're a source of a lot of the good things in life, of course. And so dogs can't talk to us, so their options sometimes are limited for soliciting, you know, for asking for that type of stuff. It's nice that they're sitting there politely staring at you rather than leaping all over you for the stuff. But it's probably looking at you, you know, for the potential for good stuff. So that's probably the best explanation.

Now what does some of the different barks and woofs mean that dogs make and they can make the growls, they can make barks, they can make sort of yipping noises. What's some ideas about what they mean? Good question. The bark is, there's no one motivation for a bark. A bark, I think the best way to view a bark is sort of as a shout. you know, by a dog. And that could be an excited sort of, woohoo. It could be a, I don't like you get out of here, you know, type of threat, threat bark can be solicitous, sort of attention seeking, right, throw the ball, let's do this, open the door quickly, we're going for a walk.

So there's a whole range, I suppose, of potential motivations for a bark. Often when you're trying to figure out what a bark means, the context of the situation is important to try to figure out what's going on. Tone can provide, you know, another hint. So a deeper, a deeper bark tends to mean a dog means a bit more business and there's quite often more likely to be a little bit more of a threat whereas if a high-pitched yippie type of bark is quite often a little bit more sort of tension-seeking, socially, social sort of social demand type of

bark. So there's a range, range of reasons, but that's a little bit of an idea of what that wolf might mean. And with the growling as well, if they're playing and they're growling, if you just got to tuggy toy or something, that's nothing really to worry about, is it?

No, with most dogs, it's not. Sure, there are some dogs around something that's important to them. they can behave aggressively. But with most dogs, and I think most people know their dogs well enough to know when they're having fun, and tug is incredible fun. And that type of play, during play, all types of real life behaviors are rehearsed and exhibited and growling is one of those.

But with most dogs, that growl is just a, well, yeah, this is great, let's go, It's very much play and nothing to worry about. And then, you know, there's a myth that playing, for instance, tug with your dog, you know, particularly if they're growling and carrying on, it might make your dog aggressive. But look, in most cases, that's not the case. The tug game is a wonderful outlet for you and your dog. It's great physical exercise. It's a great sort of play and, you know, a source of connection.

and enjoyment between you. If done right, where we teach a dog that they need to partway through an exuberant tug game, let it go in order for the fun to start again. Then it's actually a really good exercise and impulse control. You know, where a dog learns, they keyed up, that are charged up, but they learn that if they want the fun to continue, they need to get a hold of themselves to give it up, you know, to give in order to receive. So a little tip for listeners are if you're playing tug, have a lot of fun, however long it is,

10, 20 seconds of great pushing and grumbling and pulling and shaking. But then at some point, bring that, often a rope toy is a good tool to use, bring that into your knee. So it's sort of a bit dead and boring. And a lot of dogs will sort of hang onto it for a while, hold it, give it a bit of a shake. But at some point, because it's not that fun, they will choose to release it. it. And then what you do is as soon as they release it, push it towards them and start the game again rather than take it away from them. So what you're teaching them is that when you ask them to drop or leave or whatever cue you use, the sooner they do, the sooner the fun starts again.

And that is a really wonderful sort of training exercise, impulse control exercise, along with all the other benefits of Tug. So people out there, please play Tug with your dogs if they enjoy it. And what about some of the weirder things that dogs do? Some of them eat grass, some of them will eat poo as well. Is that anything to worry about? With the poo eating is not the most desirable of doggy traits, is it? You know, it's probably not risk-free, of course. You know, they can pick up parasites.

So ideally, poo eating is not great. Then again, it's a pretty common issue. I think the figure I have in my mind about 30% of dogs, engage in that to some extent. Dogs, of course, have a pretty amazing digestive system and they cope pretty well with eating or manner of things. But it's probably just for a dog viewed as a food source, as disgusting as it is for us. The grass eating, you know, we're still not 100% on exactly why dogs eat grass. I feel like probably the best explanation is it provides some, you know, nutritional value or roughage for a dog, which over time with their ancestors

has possibly been helpful, you know, to them. And so that sort of ancestral urge to eat grass is still there. I suppose if you'll eat poo, why not give grass a bit of a shot? But then again, you need to be a little bit where sometimes dogs are a little bit under the weather, you know, with gastrointestinal issues, can eat a bit more grass. And so you know, double-check with your vet that if your dog's eating a lot of grass, there's nothing untoward going on there. I had a question as well from one of my colleagues, and they were wondering, do pugs freak out other dogs just because their faces look so different, and do the other dogs

find that really hard to read? Yeah, good question. I think that's the thing with dogs, isn't it? Is it dogs come in so many shapes and sizes, you know, I think maybe that's in some ways why reactivity towards other dogs is quite a, you know, a common thing in my caseload, because your chihuahua is very different from your dog, de Bordeaux, you know. And yes, I think particularly with some of the weird things that we humans have done, appearance-wise, to our dog populations, you know, selected for traits which to us look cute,

which actually impact on the health of dogs often, like that brachyacephylac face, that squished in face. I think that probably for some dogs, particularly dogs who maybe don't have a rich history of socialisation, I think that can be challenging or even threatening. In my caseload, I do see dogs who maybe aren't as comfortable with your average, with your unfamiliar dog as ideally would like, and they can be thrown by dogs.

without tails, dogs with pug-like faces and so forth. Because also those doggy emotions are, yeah, they're a bit harder to read, aren't they? So just to wrap up there, what are three things that you wish people knew about dog behaviour? Well, probably the first is to ditch dominance as an explanation, you know, for dog behaviour. Don't let the dominance myth get in the way of a fulfilling relationship with your dog. So be a good parent, a good mentor, rather than worrying about packed leadership. So that's probably the first one. The second is about aggression.

I deal with a lot of unwanted behaviour. So I think for people to understand that aggression can be driven by different emotions and motivations. And rather than trying to reactively sort of stop, suppress that aggression when it occurs, I'd like for people to take a longer term approach where the underlying reasons for that aggression are addressed over time rather than just the unwanted behaviour. The third and final thing is

probably the importance of the sensitive period for social referencing or socialisation with a puppy for people to understand that during the early weeks of a puppy's life, their brain is being wired, being tuned for what's normal. And if breeders and owners facilitate a breadth of social and environmental experiences, if a dog meets different people, different vaccinated dogs, you know, different environments that are safe disease-wise before they're vaccinated,

this can really help a dog to develop a tolerant, sociable personality as an adult, which helps them and of course helps their guardians. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius. That was Matt Ward. If you want to know even more about dog behaviour, then check out his brand new book, What Dogs Want, which is available now. To hear Matt tell me even more about dog behaviour,

head over to the Instant Genius Extra podcast now. The latest issue of BT Science Focus magazine is available. Pick up a copy in store or visit ScienceFocus.com. This podcast is sponsored by name, audience, and focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analogue warmth. Alongside French acoustic specialist focal, Name creates high-end audio systems combining innovation with craftsmanship, so you can listen to music, just as the artist intended. Discover more at nameadio.com.