Instant Genius - Elisa Raffaella Ferrè: What happens to the brain in space?

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

Here on Earth, we take the force of gravity for granted. For years, researchers have neglected to study its influence because of this very reason, but with commercial spaceflight on the horizon, researchers are now racing to discover what living off-Earth might do to our bodies and our brains. In this week’s episode, we hear from psychologist Dr Elisa Raffaella Ferrè. She explains how her studies are revealing the impact of gravity on our cognition through her experiments in a zero-g environment aboard the so-called ‘Vomit Comet’– the aircraft used to train astronauts for the weightlessness in space. Read the edited interview - This is your brain on space: how gravity influences your mental abilities Let us know what you think of the episode with a review or a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts. Subscribe to the Science Focus Podcast on these services: Acast, iTunes, Stitcher, RSS, Overcast Why you should subscribe to BBC Science Focus Listen to more episodes of the Science Focus Podcast: Dr Erin Macdonald: Is there science in Star Trek? Kathryn D. Sullivan: What is it really like to walk in space? Dean Burnett: What’s going on in the teenage brain? Lisa Feldman Barrett: How emotions are made Bill Bryson: What should we know about how our bodies work? Richard Wiseman: The mindset behind the Moon landing Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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People have asked me after the flight, how do you feel it? is just freedom. There's no constraints. There's no 360 coordinate. It's just freedom. You can move around without any effort and turning all possible direction, unexpected outcome, because for instance, if you just touch the plane and you start to roll over on the other side, it's absolutely freedom and an amazing experience. You're listening to the Science Focus podcast from the Science Focus magazine team. With the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world.

Find out more at sciencefocus.com or look out for us in your app store. Hello, I'm Alexander McNamara, online editor at BBC Science Focus. Here on Earth, we take the force of gravity for granted. In fact, for many years, researchers have neglected to study its influence because of this very reason. But with commercial spaceflight on the horizon, researchers are now racing to discover. what living off earth might do to our bodies and our brains. In this week's episode, we hear from psychologist Dr. Elisa Raphael Farrell.

She explains how her studies are revealing the impact of gravity on our cognition through her experiments in a zero-g environment aboard the so-called vomit comet, the aircraft used to train astronauts for the weightlessness of space. She talks to our editorial assistant Amy Barrett. I'm Dr. Elisa Ferret, Elisa Ferrette. and I'm a senior lecturer at Troy Hallaway University of London in the psychology department. And your work looks at the influence of gravity on the brain. So why should we be looking at this? Why are you studying this?

I think that this is a good timely question because this year is the 50, well last year was the 50 anniversary of the Apollo Landing. And things are changing very quickly. So NASA is expecting to send astronauts to Mars in 20. 20 years probably, and we know that commercial space flight is going to happen. So soon you will be able to buy a ticket to go to outer space, enjoy your travel and come back. Now, the experience of being outer space, I think is fascinating, is just amazing. But it's not easy for our body and our brain to deal with not terrestrial gravity. So I think that understanding how gravity can impact our brain is necessary before that we go into that direction.

So when we're on Earth, is gravity having an impact on our brain that we don't realize? Yeah, I think so. So the impact of gravity on human cognition, perception, it's very much neglected in both psychology and cognitive neuroscience. So we have been focused on a lot of other aspects of our cognition, how good we are in recognizing color, how good we are in perceiving sounds. And gravity is a sensory signal. It is like touch, is like vision, is like sound. But we don't know that because we don't feel it. So you can see a color, you can hear a sound,

you can feel a touch on your skin, but you don't feel gravity. But nevertheless, gravity is always there. And we never been interested in looking at how gravity might contribute to our co-cretion and perception. Now, as I say, if we are going to be in outer space, if we are going to be on Mars, we need to know about how gravity can impact our ability to perceive and make decision and interact with other people, for example. So I think that, yes, gravity is definitely contributed to human cognition and we need to look into that. So is it just the brain that it affects or are the physiological things that come from removing gravity? So on Earth, gravity is always there.

So let's go back to physics. It's an acceleration essentially. So it's a constant 1G acceleration. That's how we call it. And we move in this environment in which we have 1G acceleration. And our brains need to know about that when you walk, when you jump, so when you move your hands, whatever, it has to know the amount and the direction of gravity. And this is done by the vestibular organ, which are tiny, small organs inside the inner ear,

which detect, indeed, the direction of gravity. So every time that you move your head in space here on Earth, the vestibular signal will tell the brain, where is your head in function of the gravitational acceleration. So let's say that if you look up, then the vestibular organ will shift slightly, and this will trigger a signal to the brain, oh, I'm not anymore upright, I'm looking up, I'm not any longer aligned with the direction of gravity, which is perpendicular on Earth. So the amazing thing for me, at least, is that you are not aware about that. It's completely below the level of awareness.

And nevertheless, the brain is key processing this information. So in outer space, in microgravity, what happened is that this signal is not there any longer. So we have evolved it in a 1G environment, and suddenly we will be in an environment in which this 1G is not longer there. So the brain need to adjust with that. It has to cope with the fact that 1G is not longer there and then try to come up with some sort of solution. That's why it's not easy to be in outer space.

And I should also add that there are also some other physiological changes. Of course, macrogravity, 0G can affect bone density, muscle, body physiology in general. There are some changes also at the level of the body. brain mechanical changes. So, you know, in zero-g fluids can go everywhere. So it's mean that a lot of fluids that are in your body will suddenly shift toward the brain, which is creating some sort of pressure at the level of the brain.

We know for instance that astronauts might develop blurred vision, and this is because of physiological mechanism. So fluids are going up there, and then the nerve is a little bit, I can say, there is a little bit of pressure on the nerve, and then there might be blurred vision. a consequence of that. So I think that is a very complicated scenario in which we need to integrate two different aspects, the mechanical one, so fluid is going everywhere and also into the brain. And the other aspect is about what happened to our cognition when we remove our familiar 1G acceleration. This is quite a young field of study and there aren't many people at the moment

working on this question, is that right? It is. It is. I feel it is a very unusual field of research. It's fascinating. It's very difficult. So compared to other sensory modalities, keep in mind the gravity detection is again talking about a sensory signal. Compared to other sensory modality, we are not as much as one as vision and touch and hearing, for instance. And the reason why I think is very simple. It's not easy to study. the contribution of gravity on Earth where gravity is there. Exactly. So how do you do it? We need to be creative.

So we need to be creative and find ways to alternate gravity, both on Earth and possibly outside Earth. So the main part of research can be done in space. So ISS, international space stations, is carrying a experiment at the time. So here we have some astronauts, well, you might remember Tim B. doing a lot of experiments while they are on the ISS. However, we are talking about a few participants, few people very, very, very well trained to be in outer space. So what I'm a little bit more interesting is what happened to normal people. The two of us going in space how it's going to look like because we don't have any Armstrong training.

So we combine data that are from space research, such as, sorry, methods that are from space research, such as parabolic flight and centrifuges, with a lot of lab research. So I think that one aspect, one aspect that I would consider very noble about the research that we are doing here is that we are trying to combine space technique

and lab research. So try to find some creative methods to alter gravity, in the lab and this can allow us to carry over well-controlled studies in a large group of people here on Earth. And we do that by using some 3D tipping table in which we can place people upside down or a different orientation. We are using a lot of VR.

So virtual reality is very good. We have shown recently that we can trick the brain and make people believe that they are on Mars and then look at the fact of these martial gravity on their very much. perception by using virtual reality and we also use artificial vestibular stimulation. As I mentioned, the vestibular system is crucial so we can apply some electrodes to the vestibular nerve. It looks a little bit Franklstein but it's safe, so don't worry. And through those electrodes we can deliver some current, which is altering the functioning of the nerve and then I hope that we can mimic alter gravity. And you mentioned parabolic flight.

Can you just explain what that is? Yes. So, well, Parabolic flight is just super fun. It's a normal airplane. So it's an A310 Airbus plane, which is refitted inside. So there are not the usual seats. It's kind of empty. And what happens is that we can set up our experiment on the parabolic flight.

Usually there are multiple teams at the same time. And then during the parabolic flight, we have different parabolas. basically we start the fly, there is a pull-up phase in which the plane accelerate with 45 degrees upwards. And then this is increasing double terrestrial gravity, so plus 2G. So you have this huge acceleration going up, pull-up phase, and then there are 20 seconds of free fall. During the free-fall phase, there is no gravity. So you've only got 20 seconds, though, without gravity? Yes. 20 seconds without gravity and other 20 seconds of acceleration again 45 degrees looking down and this is a pullout phase. So basically if you consider pull up, free fall and pull out, you have a parabola.

And that's why parabolic flight. And during the flights we have many parabolas, around 15, 16. So the flight itself is lasting for two, three hours. So it's a long period of time. But the experiment has to last 20 seconds because the exposure to microgravity is only 18, 20 seconds. So it's very, very fast. So what can you achieve in just 20 seconds? It's complicated, but it's doable. So the experiment need to be very easy, very precise, very, very, very well-setted from the beginning. So we need to make sure the experiment is working in terms of procedure.

and then it's kind of a dance, a choreography of people doing stuff for the experiment in those 20 seconds. There are multiple exposure because, as I say, parables are repeated for several times. But yes, you don't think about a normal lab. So think about a tiny space, usually is 1.5 meter by 1.5 meters space that you have on the plane. A lot of people on board. And then you need to run your experiment in this tiny space. plus the microgravity effect. Wow.

So it's challenging. It's very far from the comfort of the love, but then you have a proper microgravity experience. So there's no gravity there and it's cool. Yeah, what is it feeling? So the microgravity weightlessness, I think is one of the best thing ever, to be honest. It's freedom. people have asked me after the flight, how do you feel it? It's just freedom.

There's no constraint. There's no 360 coordinate. It's just freedom. You can move around without any effort and turning all possible direction, unexpected outcome because, for instance, if you just touch the plane and you start to roll over on the other side, it's absolutely freedom and... an amazing experience. It's not easy, though, because one aspect that is related to spaceflight

is space motion sickness. So think about the worst car sickness that you haven't ever had, the worst one ever, and then multiply then by 10. So this might give you an idea of space motion sickness. Our vestibular organ is always telling the brain what is 1G acceleration. Then there's no one-gee acceleration and the brain is getting a little bit crazy about that. So start to feel sick. We need to take some medication before the flight, but nevertheless, there is a little bit of sickness and disorientation as well. So freedom, but also sickness at the same time. Wow. And what effect have you found it's had on cognition? We start looking at different aspect of the of gravity on sensory processing and also high-level cognition.

And we recently published a paper in which we look at decision-making. We wanted to see whether decision-making is optimal when gravity is not longer our usual 1G acceleration. We did that in the lab, actually, and we asked people to generate random number. Now you may say, why, how is this related? When you generate a random number, you need to do a couple of things. So either you go with the same option and you keep repeating that, generating stereotype behavior, so for instance, I keep say two, two, two, two, or you need to shift from one number to the other number. And this is kind of generating optimal behavior.

So more options, more novel behavior. Okay. Now, when we think about adaptation to the environment, we want to have a sort of trade-off between being stereotype and being super-noble. So we don't want to go always for the same choice. We don't always want to go for a different choice. We need to have a nice trade-off. And funny enough, this sort of random number generation tasks can give us some indexes

of how people are stereotyped or how they are conservative, sorry, how they are conservative or how they are willing in exploring the environment. So we have them to generate this number, which is completely unrelated to gravity, and then we place them in different orientation. And in particular, upright, which is the standard gravitational orientation, and then line down, which is very different for our brain, because the vestibular organ, we say, yes, I'm not aligned any longer with the gravitational direction. And basically, we look at the data and we saw that people are very,

conservative, very much stereotype when they are on the ultra-gravitational conditions, so when they are supine. So it means that they are not actually using an optimal strategy to store the task. They are very conservative and they are not willing to explore. Right. Okay. So in terms of decision-making, this is not optimal. This is not very good because we want to be able to take the right decision on the right time. And if we are taking too much stereotype behavior doesn't necessarily mean that this is the best option. So again, think that you are on Mars, you need to decide whether you want to explore or whether you don't want to move. Maybe exploring is risky, but you need to do it. And if you don't move,

you don't explore, this might be a problem. So our lab manipulation is basically telling, look, people might not take the right decision when they are away from the comfort of the terrestrial gravity, which I think might have some implications. It is. And how would you overcome that? How would we get around that problem? Hopefully with some good training. Okay. So I'm not expecting to see this sort of biases in astronauts because, as I say, they go along with very long detailed training. I see. But I'm thinking more a scenario in which

we are doing some commercial space flight, we bought the tickets, then we want to go on the plane, We really don't want to wait two years or four years of training before going on our journey and our vacation. So for those people, I think that we need to develop a good training to make sure that in case it's needed, their decision making is good. And decision making is the heel of all possible behavior. And so when you work with the astronauts, can you explain how... I don't work directly with astronauts. No, okay. But from data that they've collected.

No, no. we only work with normal participant put on parabolic flight or centrifuges or in the lab. And explain you why, because I think it's even more interesting to look at a normal standard brain rather than a very well-trained brain. So it's much more interesting in a scientific point of view to understand how gravity, alternate gravity can impact a standard brain rather than a brain that has been used to a lot of exposure to artificial gravity. So during their training, astronauts are using centrifuges.

And of course, they're getting trained to be in ultra gravity. Nevertheless, they are also a little bit sick, but this is a different story. Now, the brain is amazing in adapting and adjusting. So I'm much more interested in looking at what happened the first time that you have an exposure. So what happened in terms of mechanisms, when the brain is not yet, used. Okay. What is that telling you? This is basically telling us about the basic mechanism of how the brain is coding gravitational information and whether it can deal with altering gravitational inputs. So currently, if we were to have commercial space flight, you know, if you would get a ticket

right now and go, would you go knowing what you know? Absolutely, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. Yeah, I would go. I wonder when you're in the 2G in that powerbox space like, how does that affect the brain? Do you know how? Yeah, so as microgravity, also hypergravity, so doubling the amount of gravitation information is affecting the brain.

Once again, we are not used to have different information from our user 1G celebration. So 2G is also not easy to deal with for our brain. It's also not easy to deal with for our body because you feel a lot of pressure as well at the same time. We have done some studies on the short-term human centrifuge in Cologne at the German Aerospace Center. And with those type of machine, we can only increase the amount of gravitational information. So imagine this big machine that is spinning around,

we can increase the amount of G, and we saw some effects on that. as well, on perception as well. And the effects that you've seen both in hyper and microgravity, are they persistent? Are they long term? Or is it a case of that our brain will then get used to being back on Earth with 1G and those decision-making problems go away? We haven't done that. So we didn't look at the after effect, let's say.

I can comment on this point, thinking about astronaut studies. So astronauts usually have shown a period of adaptation to the microgravity environment when they are in outer space. But they also need to have some adaptation when they are back on Earth. So if you stay three months, six months on the ISS and then you're back, you're not immediately able to cope with 1G acceleration. Because both the brain and the body need to readjust to having this very huge acceleration, which we are not usually thinking of. So yes, there are after effects.

I don't think that with as short exposure as the one in parabolic flight is enough to close after effects, but we didn't look into that. If you had the choice to go anywhere in space, would you go to ISS or would you go to the moon, Mars, where would you go? The moon. The moon, yeah? Why? You said that so quickly and you already knew your answer. Why? Because it's, I don't know, I feel always very emotional when I see, the videos of moon landing.

Well, I'm too young to have seen that online, unfortunately. But I think that it, I can say, it was always very impressive to me to see that footage. And I think that we have some sort of clear images of the moon in terms of what they collected there and also what we can do. and also what we can see from here. I don't know, it just looks a little bit more real than Mars. I'm not saying that I won't go on Mars, it's pretty cool as well, but moon is, I don't know, and you can see moon from here and you will be able to see Earth from the Moon,

which I think is going to be a fantastic experience this year and there. And do you think we'll ever be able to colonize space that we'll ever be able to live outside of it? This is a good, difficult question. On the tech side, I think yes, possibly. On the human factor, I hope is a yes. Our brain is fantastic in adaptation. So if we think on earth,

people have managed to live in a lot of different places, on the desert, on the peak of a mountain, and this is mainly because the brain can cope with that, adjust all the physiological processes and make sure that you can deal with this new environment. So it's not going to be easy, but yes, I think why not. And I'm just thinking forward to the children that will be born out in the different, you know, with a different gravity, different acceleration, do you think they'll evolve differently to us?

Okay. Another difficult question. Sorry. Who knows? So I think that I can only speculate on this point because it's kind of sign fiction idea. Now, let's think about the vestibular system, which is the mainly detector for gravity, is perfectly adapted to 1G acceleration. And we have evolved in this 1G acceleration, and we have a system that is perfect for 1G acceleration.

Now, let's go back to your question. Imagine that we have children on Mars with 0.3G. And after generation and generation, probably they will be able to adapt to this 0.3G, and then the system might be perfect for a 0.3G environment. I wonder what that would look like. What effect that I'll have on their cognition and perception? Again, it's really like science.

but I would expect them to move properly and interact with the environment in a very good way once that the 0.3 is becoming the usual comfort zone. Do you think that there's anything that the microgravity would affect in a positive way? So obviously if it's making our decisions, perhaps affecting them negatively, could it have positive effects on our brain? To be honest, I want to make the difference. distinction between negative and positive. Okay.

So I think that it's more about adjusting with a new gravitational reference. And it takes time. So I'm not necessarily say that it's good or bad. I think that it just takes time to readjust to a new environment. It might be possible that, well, definitely being in microgravity is making things much more exciting, so arousal is increasing, and we know that when arousal is increasing, we are much faster in responding, for instance. But I don't have scientific evidence. It's more like, you know, for psychology type of chatting. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I was really interested in, if there was a

difference in the impact between different ages or different genders, have you seen that there's any that are more susceptible to the impacts of gravity? I don't think that we have enough data at the moment about that. You need to think about this field of research in a different way compared to other fields. So how many astronauts are there? So we don't have enough subject, enough data to draw this type of conclusion. So it's very, very new. So what's next?

Oh, good question. Well, it's a challenging field, but it's also very much open to what's next question, because we have a lot of different direction. In my lab, we are looking at sensory processing and decision-making, and we are usually looking at sensory processing and decision-making on our own body. So one aspect that I think might be interesting is looking at social interaction as well, because we are not going to be there alone. So if my decision making is a little bit altered,

how this can reflect in interaction with other humans in a crew, for instance. So I think that in the long run, we are planning some experiments on that direction as well. And when you say sensory processing, what does that mean? What does it mean? Yeah, we have done studies on looking at visual processing, pain. Oh, okay. So that's affected by gravity. Yeah. It's not yet published. Right. Okay. Well, that's exciting then. Yes. So we have just finished a project looking at whether artificial gravity by placing the participant in different orientation in space can alter its pain perception and it does.

Wow. So as I say, it's not yet published. Okay. It's exciting. What is it that excites you most about what you do on a day basis? Everything. That's the answer. I can, well, how can you not be excited by this research field? It's new, it's novel.

It's challenging, yes, of course, but we don't know enough about that. And I think that being a good scientist, being a good research, is coming up with new questions and trying to solve the questions. and here you have plenty of questions that you can answer. Yeah, absolutely fascinating. You must absolutely love coming to work every day. I do. I do because it's what I also think,

I don't know whether this is going to go into the interview or not, but what I also think science should look like is an integrated multidisciplinary environment. and I had this idea when I was a student, I had this idea when I was a PhD student, and I think I'm a very lucky position in which I can have a research field that is very much multidisciplinary.

So I really like to interact with people from different environment, and because of this sort of fields, I have to do it with, you know, engineer, computer scientists, medical space medicine expert. Physics is also involved. Yes, cool.

So I think that it's a very, very lucky position. It cannot be boring. It just cannot be boring. It's so fascinating. Now this space exploration can be boring. It's just so cool. That's amazing. I should be a bit more professional, but really, how can this be boring?

Even hearing about it is exciting. It makes you excited to see what happens with it. About the program that we have done. So if you're using it. ago, well, 50 years ago, we have very brave people going out of space without even knowing what they were doing. And they coped with that. They did an amazing job. And now we are thinking about getting a ticket going there for a trip. It's amazing. It's just amazing. So yeah, that's probably why I like it so much. That was Dr. Elisa Ferrer talking about how gravity,

or lack thereof, changes the way we think. In BBC Focus magazine this month, we look at the race to find a vaccine for COVID-19, find out from a botanist how to keep house plants happy, and learn how to work from home according to science. As always, there are loads more science stories inside and available on sciencefocus.com, and if you haven't already, make sure you look back through our podcast feed and listen to our special new series, everything you wanted to know about. In the first set of shows, we talked physics with Professor Jim Al-Kalee.

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