Instant Genius - How can we save our planet? - Sir David Attenborough

Episode Date: March 27, 2019

We speak to Sir David Attenborough, naturalist and host of the new Netflix show Our Planet, and two of the show’s producers about the essential changes we need to make to save our home. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com to learn more. There are these great sea changes that are very difficult to plot, and you can't quite know what buttons to press to bring them about. But they do happen, and it's up to us if we care about it, to try and bring that about. whether we will have succeeded or not, it's almost neither here or there. You simply have this obligation. You're listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team.

With the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com or look out for us in your app store. Hello and welcome to the Science Focus podcast. I'm Alice Lipscomb, Southwell, the production editor at BBC Science Focus magazine. Sir David Attenborough, has spent more than half a century bringing us incredible stories from the natural world and championing its protection at the same time. On the 5th of April, a new eight-part natural history documentary series will go live on Netflix. It's called Our Planet and it's produced by the team behind Blue Planet and Planet Earth

and is narrated by Sir David. The series is different from the natural history shows that have come before, according to the show's creators. It explains that what we do in the next 20 years is crucial for the future of the environment and it outlines the must saves, the big but simple changes we need to make to give us the best shot possible of maintaining the health of the natural world. We talked to Sir David about what we need to do to protect the environment that we so critically depend on, whether he's optimistic about its future and which natural phenomenon he'd be most sad to lose.

After that, you'll hear our discussion with Our Planet producers Keith Shouly and Alistair Fothergirl who will talk about spending their lives working in natural history filmmaking and tell us why I think Donald Trump has actually done some good for the environment. Here's Sir David Attenborough talking to editorial assistant Helen Glennie. David, you've spent the majority of your career encouraging people to care for the natural world. Do you now feel optimistic or pessimistic about its future? I feel that the world is more aware of what the problems are than it has been for most of my career. 50 years ago people didn't think there was a problem

and there wasn't a problem that's commensurate with the problem that we face now. But the problem has got bigger. That's the difficulty. People are more aware of, they're more aware of conservation, they're more aware of what we're doing to the world. My goodness, there'd better be,

because otherwise we've been totally wasting our time, haven't we? I mean, it's a big responsibility that natural history filmmakers have. And as far as I'm concerned, I'd love to spend all the time saying, look at these wonderful things. Aren't they lovely and enjoyable and beautiful? And enjoy them. That's what they are.

It's the greatest pleasure you can think of. But you have a responsibility for pointing out at the same time. Unless we change our ways, they're not going to be there forever, and that our grandchildren won't see them. Do you think that you say the scale of the problem is increasing, but also our awareness is increasing and probably our ability to cope with the problems increasing.

Do you think that we'll end up getting to a point where we are able to fix all these problems that we've created? We can do that right now, all you need is the will. I mean, we can stop using plastic if we want to. Mind you, that's easy to say, isn't it? I mean, how do you actually, in practice?

And does it matter that you sort out through your rubbish and put the plastic in one hand on, does it matter that you refuse to take a plastic bag when you're given your groceries? Yes, it does. And we have to do that. But it's all pervasive. I mean, it is extremely difficult. And indeed, of course, a lot of the problem doesn't rest here, but the rest of the world, there are huge problems. But already in this country that people have made a difference and that's how it starts. I mean it's got to start somewhere. Every journey starts with one step and it has to start somewhere and it is starting. So I feel that we are more sensitive to solving the

problems but the trouble is the problems have got bigger and so even one step you take that the problem gets larger enough. But in a sense it's irrelevant, you see. I mean, whether I think we're going to solve these problems or whether I don't, all I know is that I couldn't look my great-gunchildren in the eye and say, I knew what was happening, but I didn't bother to tell anybody or to do anything about it personally. You've got to.

Over the last 60 or 70 years, you've been in this really unique position where you've been able to see the natural world up very close, but you've also witnessed the destructive things that we're doing to it. What have you learned from that that you think everybody should know? Everybody should realise that actually this is not just a fad or just because I like dicky birds or anything. The fact of the matter is that you and me and the rest of the home species are crucially dependent upon the health of the natural world

for every mouthful of food that we eat, on every breath of air we take is it comes from the natural world. If the seas stopped producing oxygen, we will be unable to breathe. There is no food that we can take, that we can digest, that doesn't originate from the natural world.

We can't manufacture it. We can't synthesise food. We can synthesise elements of it, but we can't synthesize a proper diet. So if we damage the natural world, to that extent, we damage ourselves. Now, you've done a lot of work recently with going to the UN climate talks to Davos, and you've sort of been an advocate for the environment. Now, do you feel when going to those things that the politicians are listening?

Do you think we're ever going to get effective change at a policy level? Yeah, I think that if you're getting as old as I am, it would be naive to think suddenly these enormously powerful men and organisations because you go and say something that they're going to change up and not. The world doesn't work like that. But the world does work in a mysterious way, in that there is ground swells, there are groundswells. I mean, the example I often think of is that in the middle of the 19th century,

it was quite acceptable for human beings, decent ordinary human beings like you and me, to think we could own other human beings as slaves and that we could buy them and sell them. And within a period of about 25 years, that suddenly became totally 100%. And it became intolerable that any sophisticated or decent human being could possibly hold such a belief.

So there are these great C changes that are very difficult to plot, and you can't quite know what buttons to press to bring them about, but they do happen. And it's up to us, if we care about it, to try and bring that about. Whether we will succeed or not, it's almost neither here or not there. You simply have this obligation. Where do we start? What do you think is important that we achieve in these?

If we have a 20-year time span, what do we need to do? Well, of course, you and I, what can we do? We can say not use plastic bags. But you and I know perfectly well that there's a bigger issue than that. And that in the end, it has to be international agreements. And you may say more people sitting in closed rooms and talking. Well, yes, it is. And it's not easy.

and it really has never been done except for the whaling agreement. And the wailing agreement, for the first time, nations, sea-going nations around the world, got together, saw the danger and said, right, we will do something, we will stop wailing. And they did. And within that period, whatever it is, 50 years less, suddenly whales have come back.

if we can achieve that we can achieve other things too and all you can do is to make sure that you try and find the people who've got their fingers on the levers on the right big levers here in message and whatever you say about Davos there are a lot of people there with a lot of fingers on some very very big levers and if they go away from Davos I mean, what governs the way they think?

It's not just, they've got beyond the balance sheet. They're men of infinite power. They certainly don't want any more money themselves. What makes them get up in the morning? What makes them want to make a decision or a tough decision? They're unconscious, I suppose. So how do you get to that? Well, you go to that by going and saying, look, this is a situation.

This is how it is. These are the problems. And if you've got the opportunity to do that, you'd better bloody well do it, you know. There are a couple of politicians, though, that have got fingers on some very big levers and don't seem to have much of a conscience. Trump is one of the ones you think of. But does that mean you say in that case, I won't bother? But if you were trying to speak specifically to them, what would you go for?

Well, I would do exactly the same. as I do to anybody else, which is said, look, these are the facts. But there are some people who you feel are never going to change their opinion no matter what you say. And it could well be that Mr. Trump is one of them. And it could well be, and I can tell that you know about Australia. There are people in Australia that way right now. And all you can do is to say, look, that's a situation. And if you're in a democratic situation, in a democratic society,

convince the electorate that you're right and that people you put in power, the people who see what the truth is. If you think about all of the experiences that you've had in the natural world, what would you most want your grandkids or your great grandkids to be able to see? What's where you really stands out to you? Apparently a refal stuff. Oh, yeah. Easy answer.

Greatly. Easy answer. A bit of truthful. Yeah. And there is no more, I can't think of a moment. that had more effect on me than the first time I dived with an aquilung on the barrier reef

which was well on a coral reef any coral reef that was the first time I did it and that was in 1956 and I mean the gear we had was clunky my skills were almost non-existent I mean I dived about four times in the murky waters

of the English Channel that's all and then I put on this thing thing, you must done it, I'll bet. No, I've snorkeled. I've never died. Well, dive is a transforming feeling because suddenly

you are no longer anchored to the ground with gravity. Suddenly you are just neutral and you only have to do that with your leg and you go up or you go down. Well, that in itself is transformative. I mean, that itself is amazing. But when you look down, there are

500 different species of creatures there. Just under that. You've never seen anything like them before. They're the most wonderful colours. They do the most extraordinary things. Some of them are fish, yes, but others. You've no idea what they are.

And they're all exquisitely beautiful. And they're all absolutely preoccupied with their own things. They take very little notice towards you. That is an experience which you'll never forget. Oh, amazing. Give it a go. Yeah, I will. I will.

Because the scale of these problems that we're facing, often seems so big, what's one thing that you'd implore people to do on a personal level? Don't waste anything. Don't waste power. Don't waste food. And don't waste time. But don't waste. The world is enormously precious. And your time on it is precious. Don't waste it. But also, I mean, don't have these lights on to be on, you know. Don't. And, and, you Don't eat food and leave 50% of it on your plate. And don't waste your time and recognise that every mouthful of food we eat

and every breath we take, we owe it to the natural world. That was Sir David Attenborough, talking about what we need to do to halt the decline of the environment. Keith Scholey and Alistair Fothergill have led long careers in natural history programming with the BBC, having worked with Sir David on Blue Planet and Planet Earth among a whole host of other shows. They were joint series producers on Our Planet, a program that's been four years in the making.

Elster, can you give me the pitch for Our Planet? What makes it different from other natural history shows that you've worked on? I worked on Planet Earth with that series, and I think Planet Earth was a celebration of all the key habitats on the planet. And if you watched our deserts episode, we'd show you the best deserts in the world. and explain their ecology. And the tagline of that series was Planet Earth,

as you've never seen it before. And if there was a tagline to this series, it's our planet, as you've never understood it before. And I think the key difference is we felt time was right, having completed, you know, we've done blue planet, planet Earth, frozen planet, to do a series that dealt for the first time in depth with the ecological and environmental challenges to our planet.

And we didn't want it to be doom and gloom. We didn't want it to be, we didn't want to film destruction. We wanted to film the wildernesses and the animals that still remain and explain their value, value to the planet. So for instance, you know, half the air we breathe comes from the oceans. But also, if there's any chance of preserving biodiversity for future generations, what are the must say? And we felt that that was a very fresh message.

a very, very timely message. Even four years ago when we started on this journey, the interest and care about the planet wasn't as it is now. It's so grown. And actually being on Netflix is particularly good because they have a very young skew in their audience. You know, most of their audience is actually under 30.

And those are the people more than anybody who care about this because they have inherited a pretty damaged planet. Now you talk about the must saves, which is a really interesting, this really interesting point. What have you identified as those must saves? Can you give us a... In the grand scheme of the thing for each habitat, what we look at is more the key issue with each habitat. So like in the Grasen's episode, it's all about space. And you can't have a grass in community, you can't have the Serengeti migration if you don't have enough space.

if you don't have enough space for it. In fact, most great migrations of our world have disappeared because we took away that kind of space. So each show says, look, you've got to actually concentrate on just one thing and make sure that you deal with that issue. And we have this online site then, our planet.com, which then we direct the audience to, which will then actually... say to you, okay, if you want to make space for grasslands, this is what you have to do.

And it's actually quite simple. It's all about the food we eat. And so if people change their diet or change the way we produce food, we can have a huge amount more space for nature. So this is the kind of the sort of principle of the whole series. I think then within each show, there obviously we sort of highlight individual. animals which are you know in really suffering

and the orangutan in the jungles of Borneo if we carry on the way we are will be gone and these will be the last generation of wild orangutans and and again that's about

space for them in the rainforest we also do you know I would say the tropical forest film we do explain that the different rainforests like South America and the African and the Asian are very different. So you can't just preserve the Amazon. You might think that's the simple thing to do.

And, you know, we film the deep sea coral reefs because they are so important. They're more extensive than the shallow water reefs, and yet we're destroying them through dredging. So it's just giving people a sense of what's precious and what is the problem. And also, equally importantly, what is the solution? You know, it's not always an obvious solution,

but we try and give people a positive message as well. And as Keith mentions, on Ourplanet.com, the surrounding online activity, there will be some things people can do individually to make a difference. Fantastic. Okay, so you guys must have gone back to places that you've been to years before, decades before filming. What's really noticeable for you that's changed?

I've worked in Antarctica a lot. I did a series called Life in the Freezer and then Frozen Planet. and it's a beautiful island called South Georgia. And when Shackleton was there, he had an amazing photographer with him called Hurley, who took photographs of glaciers, very beautiful glaciers. And I went back there once with David and then another 20 years later.

And you could literally see the glacier going out of the hill. The other big change on the Antarctic Peninsula, the different penguins in Antarctica are adapted to different amounts of ice. And famously, the Adali penguin is the Deep South penguin that then feeds around and under ice. And in the peninsula, which is this long arm that sticks north and has sort of been most affected by climate change, the Adelae penguin has become much rarer and is only found in the south. And it's been replaced by the Gentoo penguin, which is a penguin that breeds on the Falklands in South Georgia. And traditional was a northern penguin.

So you can actually see that in the bird. And in the other place, obviously, we work a lot in Svalbard with polar bears. And I've definitely noticed that in the summer, the ice is melting much earlier there. And for polar bears, their window of hunting is reduced. I grew up in Kenya as a kid. And in the 60s in Kenya, more wildlife was seen outside national parks than in them. where you drove, there was wildlife, cheeses, lions, everything, just off the main roads, lots of bush. Now, it's completely confined to national parks. So all, well, the vast

majority of wildlife outside has gone. And that's a, you know, that's a staggering change in just 50 years. And we're now getting to the point now so that if these, if the national parks are not protected, you lose everything. So you're in the last kind of moment. So that becomes a real focus. Yeah, so you guys have, I'm sure, been in a very unique position throughout your careers where you've seen the diversity of the natural world, probably closer than most people.

But at the same time, you've witnessed these things, you've witnessed this destruction. Is there anything that you think, that you've learned from that, that you think that we should all know? I think that what's really clear. Most people think, oh, it's nothing we can do. It's just, it's problems, problems. And I think to a certain extent,

conservationists have set that idea up. There's just lots of little tiny problems. There are some very, very big, but simple things that you need to sort. And if you sort those big, simple things, and they need to be sorted quickly, you can fix so much of this. The ocean's a classic example.

The open ocean is going down the tube very, very quickly, largely because of overfishing. But the people who are fishing it, they're only about four or five nations who actually fished the open ocean. And it all has to be subsidised because it's so unprofitable. and so you have to think, well, why not just stop doing it?

Of course, we have this huge sort of story of what happened with the great whales who were going down the tube because they were being overfished and we just decided to ban fishing of whales, wailing, and they bounce straight back. So, you know, there are all you need to do to save the open ocean. And the open ocean is crucial for everyone, not to eat fish, but purely it's, we know it's probably the biggest carbon sum. It's one of our biggest weapons in dealing with climate change. And so why on earth do we allow a few people to run unprofitable businesses to really undermine the thing for us?

And I think the whole story of the world and the way it's going, it's all full of a lot of these nonsense. things, but if you cut right through it and see really clearly, you know, what you have to do, it's pretty simple. And I think the whole our planet project is to give that clarity to say, look, we can fix this, but you just need the will to kind of do it. The other thing we've seen in change, you know, when we started, conservation was about preserving pandas and it was, you know, and national parks, all very worthy things. I think the big change is a recognition that saving biodiversity is not just about fluffy

bear bunnies. It's about the health of the planet because things are beginning to break down globally because we've lost so much biodiversity. And if the planet is going to recover, the main thing the planet needs for that recovery is biodiversity. There's a very alarming report this week about the loss of insects. We've all kind of knowing that's what going on, maybe not a lot of. as bad as that, but, you know, insects are the fabric of the world. Obviously, they pollinate, but you can't have soil without insects.

It doesn't work because they cycle everything around it. And if you lose that whole layer, you know, it doesn't work for anyone. And so we hope, you know, we'll get these meshes through that nature. is no longer just nice to have. It's essential. So does all of these things make you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of the natural world? I think very optimistic if we can motivate people to do some, do the things that need to be done quickly. What we haven't got a lot of is time.

Time has gone. So what we have to do is to motivate change. There's huge amounts of indications that the penny is dropping and lots of big businesses, governments and so on and so forth, you know, are prepared to start to make change. But the race against time now is acute. So if we can do it in time, optimistic. If we prevaricate for even a few more years, we've lost the game.

So it's now all about focusing everyone on, this is what has to happen, and let's invest in it and do it. I mean, the human species is extremely clever. You know, we're very good at fixing things. And there's absolutely no doubt that there is technology out there to solve almost all the problems. You know, we know that human population is probably going to plateau in the 50s, 2050s. We get richer, we have less children. And so I agree with Keith that optimistically, it's within, grasp. Politically, it's more challenging. But, you know, and what, literally, I mean, that final

line in the opening episode, what we do in the next 20 years is vital. I think what is also really important now is people used to think there's the kind of nature and there's us. And I think now people, the pennies drop. These, these two things are not, they are intricately tied together. You can't talk about us without nature, because actually without nature, because actually without there's no us. And so it very much is our planet and our problem. And, you know, we need it. And I think we'll start to see change pretty past. What do you think of the main things that's stopping that from happening? I think there's a failure to realise the actual scale of the problem.

I mean, climate change is a classic example of, of, you know, people have really not worked out that this is a massive, massive beast that's going to bite everyone very, very badly. And if it gets runs out of control, it's a very, well, it's far more dangerous than anything else you could have a face. So I think this realisation

that we have a news culture where short-term problems and short-term news hits the headline rather than insidious long-term problem. So we have to get to the point of recognizing, hey, this is the biggest problem. And then just invest in solving it. We've got all the resources.

You just need to move cash from certain things into dealing. Nature needs now. We've conquered nature, and it now needs investment to be able to, thrive again, but we need it to thrive. And I still think that global economies are based too much on short-term gain

rather than long-term sustainability. One of the key things in Davos and why it was an amazing opportunity for us to be at Davos and speak at Davos is that, you know, that is a forum of economists and business leaders. And they're beginning to realize that if you want a sustainable business doing anything, you have to have a sustainable resource. They're all based on a resource in the natural world. None of them can escape that.

And so, you know, conservation is not just about saving tigers. It's about preserving our own planet for our children. And we are very inspired because there is no political problem that mankind has ever faced that is as important as the one we're now facing. Now, just speaking of Davos, when you think of the sort of political situation around this, we think of Donald Trump as being one of those people that's doing really damaging, creating really damaging environmental policy. If you had a chance to sit down with someone with him or a politician like him who's doing

sort of similar things, what sort of message would you try and get through there? I don't think there's any chance of getting a message through with Donald Trump. I mean, the irony of Donald Trump, actually, is that when he pulled out of Paris, there was a lot of conservationists who thought that was a disaster. Ironically, green issues and green politics have never been more powerful in the states than now. And, you know, the governor of California, California is the ninth biggest economy on the planet, just said, well, Donald Trump can say what he likes. We are going to be the most green economy we can.

And actually, you could argue that people like him encourage, you know, environmentalism. And you look at, you know, the president of Brazil, the new president of Brazil, never has the protection of the Amazon been more talked about because, you know, so swings and roundabouts. I don't think you could, I mean, you know, you know, why bother really?

I think for most politicians, they've got to think now very, very carefully about do they want to end up being on the wrong side of history? And the other thing is, which David says a lot, you know, can you look your children or grandchildren in the eye and said, I ignored this, I did nothing. And I think for all of us that now is, you know, that's the difficult question.

You know, we know what we've done. We're the generations that have done it. Can you look into, yeah, the people who are going to inherit what we've left them and say we did nothing to make it better? Our ambition is to communicate to a billion people, and that isn't over up to, you know, we're optimistic. We are very confident the Netflix series will attract half a billion.

There's 139 million subscribers. Each of those, you know, do you have a Netflix subscription? You know, you can have three or four other people. So, you know, I'm sure your granny shares your subscription. So, you know, just those numbers. Then you add out the online, the arplanet.com. And, you know, the other thing that will really change business is men and women in the street saying, I'm not going to buy a computer that isn't green. I'm not going to, I'm not going to eat meat as much as I did. We have an immense power and politicians will jump when, you know, you just have to take the example of the plastics, you know, the Blue Planet 2. Within a month, government was changing government policy and stuff. And so we have a voice.

And together, I think we can really put pressure on politicians. Out of all of your experiences that you guys have had filming in the natural world, is there one thing that stands out as the sort of natural phenomenon or natural spectacle that you'd most want your, say, your great-grandchildren to be able to see? For me, often it's related to particular animals. And I spent a lot of time working with chimpanzees and they're such amazing animals. I mean, you look into the eyes of chimpanzee and you know that's an intense.

intelligent thinking being, you just know that. And the other one for me would be polar bears. It's a lot of time with them. And they are the poster charts for global warming. And it would, you know, there's a really good chance that polar bears will go basically extinct in 40 years. You know, there may be a few relic populations. But, and to think that the largest in-lac carnival on our planet would go, land carnival would go extinct. And then on such grace, I mean, would be harboring.

breaking. And for me I guess the lot of underwater films and a coral reef is you know you dive on a really pristine coral reef. It is the most incredible thing. I don't know if you die but it's the most incredible thing you can have a witness. And the fact that

coral reefs are going really really fast and people might not be able to future generations may not be able to experience Corey just is an incredibly terrible thought because this is a whole kind of ecosystem that has taken hundreds of millions of years to come about

and it's the most exquisite and beautiful complex thing nature has ever created and it can go in a couple of centuries so that's the one thing I hope that we can show to them and the big migrations of Africa, like the Serengeti,

to still to be able to see where big animals roam and, you know, lions jump on buffalo and cheeses chase gazelles, to still to be able to see nature as it was there, to be, exists, you know, with nothing to do with us, is another thing that we just have to keep. That was Keith Shouley and Alistair Fothergirl, talking about their new show, Our Planet, which will go live on Netflix on April 5th.

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