Instant Genius - How close are we to discovering aliens?

Episode Date: June 16, 2024

Finding alien life could be just around the corner. At least, that’s if the James Webb Space Telescope and other techniques help us discover their extraterrestrial homes. In this episode, astrophysicist Lisa Kaltenegger and author of new book Alien Earths: Planet Hunting in the Cosmos talks us through the ways she and her team are looking for these planets and the kinds of life they might hold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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might look like. And these have a lot of the time come from our favorite films, from the swirling red dust of June to the impressive spaceships in Star Wars. But what do the scientists searching for aliens think? How are they going about finding them? And how could searching for alien Earths help us protect our own? We spoke to Professor Lisa Koltanager, astrophysicist and astrobiologist at Cornell University and author of the new book Alien Earth's Planet Hunting in the Cosmos. Lisa answers these questions and more and explains why finding aliens could happen sooner than you'd think.

So Lisa, you have said that the question about whether there is other life in the universe should be an obvious answer. It should be this yes or no answer. And don't worry, I'm not going to open by putting you on the spot and asking you to give us that answer. But instead, why is this still not a question that we can answer so simply? Because we don't have the tools yet. And so this is where now we live in this amazing time of exploration, because for the first time ever, we have launched a space telescope that's big enough.

It's about four times my size, so think about a normal adult and then add three more to it. That's the size of the space telescope. We launched the James Webb Space Telescope that can collect enough light from small planets to look at them and their air. And so for the first time ever, we're getting to the point of finding it out. And it's really, really hard to do. But we have the first tool in place that is starting to take these measurements now. I am definitely going to ask you about that tool and other approaches a bit later. But fundamentally, what are we looking for? What are the most important traits that would make a world habitable? We talk about how hard it is, but do we know what ingredients are needed for life? So we look at the earth and we have this amazing pale buddata in space where we all live on. And so this is how we derive what we should look for. And so we want to rock close to our heat source, the sun or another star. And at the right distance, not too hot, not too cold.

So you could have liquid water on the surface like it is here on Earth. And we know that water is one of the key ingredients for life. So hopefully it's also one of the key ingredients for life. somewhere else. So once you have water, you have a good chance. And what we do is we look at the light of these planets, because signs of life are written in the light of another world if you know how to read it. So is it possible that life could occur without these really familiar traits? In other words, you know, could we be missing life by searching for the wrong things? It might not be a life that we're familiar with, but if we keep on going for water and

oxygen and carbon, could we be missing some crazy life form somewhere? in the universe. So in the search, what's so exciting is that we're looking for signs of life where we can say, okay, this is actually life as we know it, right? This is a sign of life because you don't want me to just keep guessing. It's like, ooh, this could be or could not be, could be or could not be. So we have a key search strategy that looks for life like we know it because then we know what science it leaves. And then we keep our eyes open for something weird or strange or interesting. And that's the great thing in science. A lot of times you learn a lot when you see something you definitely did not expect. So our mission is focused towards signs of life if we know them because

we don't know if life can build on other building blocks. Could be, but we don't have an example to check. So we are quite conservative if you want in our assert. And so what's really amazing to me is when you look up at the sky, what we know is that one out of five stars has a planet that's not too hot, not too cold, and this Goldilocks zone, and this habitable sound where you could have liquid water on the surface. But now taking your question, so one out of five in a galaxy with 200 billion stars gives us billions of possibilities. But your question is a really great one. What about different kind of life?

And so that would actually open even more possibilities if it could live for example with a solvent that is methane or ethne instead of water. And so in our own solar system, we look at the moons of the giant planet to try to learn if life could be different. And so as soon as we find anything in our solar system, and of course we're looking now and we're sending missions to the those icy worlds or really cold moons around Saturn and Jupiter, if we learn something new, we will build it in into our search for life on planets around other stars. And this is where science goes hand in hand, searching for life in the solar system and outside. But what I'm just floored by is how many possibilities we have. And for the first time, the tool to find out, what is a great time to live in?

In the book you talk about things that we have on Earth, Tardagrades, Nudebranks, all of these kind of alien-like contenders on Earth, like that when we find them, we're kind of like, wow, that looks like an alien. But what do you think that alien life might look like? That is such a great question. And I'm asking myself this. And I put it in the book. It's called, and I have an amazing artist who helped.

And so basically we have alien wannabes as the time. title on this one graph where we just picked life forms on the earth that if you would present them to me and I wouldn't have any way to study them, I'd be like, yeah, sure, could be aliens. But of course they not. They evolved here. They have our kind of DNA. This is how you identify that they basically also evolved on the earth. But this is where sometimes I find myself really wondering, could I predict what life would be

on another world because if I go to the bottom of our ocean, I couldn't have predicted what we find there. But on the other hand, on the flip side, that means there must be such an incredible diversity of life out there if there's life out there that I think with billions of possibility, the biggest surprise would be if we find nothing. But so how that could look like, you talk about two eyes, you know, four legs, two legs. Well, I think it would be. It would be a lot of, will depend on the planet. Like if it has more gravity, probably don't want to be upright because it's harder to do. So maybe more like snakes or snails or spiders, you know. And then if it's less gravity, maybe you can be like a giraffe or higher. But that's where physics tells us what

gravity would do to your structure probably. But whether or not that's a dinosaur, a giraffe, a giraffe dinosaur, I don't know, anything you can imagine. Nobody knows. And I think that's that. That's a dinosaur. I also so exciting in the search that we will first look for signs of life in the air or on the surface of a planet. That's where we're starting to be able to do right now. But the next generations we'll have to figure out what we have found. And there, of course, we refer back to Star Trek and Star Wars. And this is one of the fun parts in the book, too. I actually got to look at all these different worlds and figure out which one could work and which one couldn't. And that is so inspiring. you know, going to the movies, reading books. And now we're starting to find worlds that could be like

those. So great time to be alive. It really is. And thinking of those places where these things can happen, let's turn to the planets that have come up in your research so far. So taking all of these ingredients and this thinking into account, where do you think that we are most likely to find alien earth contenders? And what's the closest that we have come? So we want them to be close. to us. And the trick here is that think about somebody walking with a torch away from you, it appears less and less bright, but of course the torch doesn't change. So light goes out in a sphere. That means the further away you are, the less brightness you get from a light source. Same for a star and a planet. So everything that's close to us is the best possible targets because the closer,

the more light, the more light, the more information I can actually read. And so the way we're doing this is we're catching the light from a planet or the light from the star filtered through the air of the planet. And then we split them out in its colors. So think about it as if a rainbow is there. We have the white light from the star or the planet and we basically split it out from red to blue. It's a little bit further than that because the electromagnetic spectrum is much wider. But I think the color analogy is good for me when I think about it. And then we look if there's something missing, some color missing. Like the red is not as intense as it should be, for example.

Because when the light hits a molecule on the way to us, it can make this molecule swing and rotate. The molecules, like water is a molecule, oxygen is a molecule, CO2 is a molecule. All of those look different because they have a different structure. So you need a different energy, thus a different color of light, to make it rotate. and swing. So by checking which color didn't make it all the way to my telescope, I can tell you what light hits on its way to me, what molecule it hit. And I can go to the lab and actually make a see-through canister of, let's say, water vapor, and shine the light in from one side and see what

comes out on the other side, and then I have a comparison chart. I'm like, ooh, there's water in the ear of the half planet. And so the closer those planets are, the better. And my favorites, are the Trappist One system, and this is a small red sun. Most stars out there are actually red sun smaller than ours. And it has seven Earth-sized planets. And three of those are in what we call the habitable zone or the Goldilocks zone that we talked about. And we are right now pointing the James Webb Space Telescope, this big telescope we launched to be able to do this for the first time at the system to see if we can unveil its secrets and spot gases in the air that might indicate that there's also something breathing there.

That process that you were just describing, is that what people call spectroscopy? Exactly. That's what we call spectroscopy. And sometimes it seems a little complicated, but it's really just light carries energy, right? So if you put your hand out in the sunshine, and you figure that out because it gets warm. And then molecules, when you think back to school, all have different structures, like an H2O water, right? Two hydrogen, one oxygen looks different, like an O2, because you only have two oxygen atoms that stick together.

And so if you think about them swinging and rotating because some right energy hit it, then that's the secret of spectroscopy. And you can take that out and think, ooh, spectroscopy is actually not that bad because it's really color, like white color, split up into its colors, so red to blue, and then checking whether or not there's something missing. And these dips in the intensity of light, so something in the red is missing on something in the blue is missing, that's what we call absorption features. And spectroscopy is that we basically split it up in all the colors.

And the spectroscopy and absorption features is just a modulation of the light that should come to me and the one I find. And so in a way, you know, physics isn't so bad, I promise. I definitely should have been told that more in my GCSEs. But that is such an amazing way that we can find out so much from so far away. But another thing that I was reading about in your book is the stars wobble, which involves light as well. Could you tell us a bit more about that? because that seems like another fantastic approach for finding alien Earths without really having to move very far. What's fascinating is that we can get all this information

or spot these worlds without having, you know, a spaceship to go there and actually check if it's there. And the trick is light. It's always light with astronomy because we basically learned so much about the cosmos just by catching light. And so the first planet around another star was found. in 1995 and got the Nobel Prize a couple of years ago for that discovery. And the way to find that and a lot of the other planets after is to just look at the star. So we don't actually see

the planet. The planet's still hidden, but we see that the star wobbles, the star jiggles, if you want. And the way to think about this is if you go to a park and you see somebody walk a dog, you don't have to see the dog if the dog wants to go in one direction and the person doesn't. So they lean back. And so if you see a person leaning back a lot, you know something is pulling. And now imagine the dog running and circle around the owner. So the star and the planet is very similar. So the gravity of the planet pulls on the star as well. And so they move around the center of mass. But when you only see the star because it's brighter and bigger, you basically see the star moving back and is kind of wobbling, and you're like, why would it wobble? And you can calculate how massive the object

must be that makes it wobble, that pulls. So how big the dog would be that actually pulls on the person who walks it. And this is when you figure out that the mass isn't big enough to ignite nuclear fusion in the core. And if there's not enough mass to ignite nuclear fusion so it doesn't get hot and dense enough in the core to start fusion reactions and make this object shine, like a star, then we call that object a planet. And so this is how, just from the movement of the star, we can figure out there's an unseen companion. Lisa, I feel like we're going to have to do a whole other episode on comparing what all the different planets, how they match different dog species, because I actually personally really want to know. But for now, I just want to ask about another

potential approach that you might use to finding life on other planets. I was thinking we, live on a planet where we've had a really long time. We've had a huge opportunity to develop life. So is time scale important to your research as well? I mean, is there a way to tell how older potential alien Earth is and therefore how much of an opportunity life has had to develop there like we've had? Absolutely. So planets form when the stars form. And so we can actually age stars. We can tell you how old stars are, roughly, by how they behave. And so we can tell you how old their planets are. And the fascinating thing is that there are planets out there, they were older than the Earth is right now when the Earth was born. But there are also much,

much younger planets out there. So it's really a potpoury, a big diversity. And the really key question we don't know yet is if evolution happens at the same time scale. Because that's all we have right now. The Earths are one example. and life went through a lot of amazing stages, and it changed our atmosphere about two billion years ago so that I could spot it somewhere else or somebody could spot us. And so this is when oxygen started to build up in high quantities in our atmosphere. And oxygen, in combination with a reducing gas, they react. So oxygen with CH4 with methane react to CO2 and water.

So if you see oxygen and methane at the same time in big quantities, you need big quantities for me to spot it somewhere else, then you know that's being produced right now. And so about two billion years ago, this is how you could spot life on the earth. Now on another planet that's older. I love to imagine what life could have gotten to. Are they old cyborgs? Do they have flying cars? I do want a flying car in the jetbacks.

you know, that we were supposed to have, all of these things, great space stations. But it could be that evolution could be faster, and so even a younger planet could be at our stage, or it could be that evolution could also be slower. And that's something we can't say because we have a sample of one hours. And so they search for life in the universe, there's so many fundamental questions we get to answer if we find it, like what condition does it need to get started? started. How fast does it evolve? Is there already oxygen? Even so the planet is only one billion years old. For us, it took like 2.7 billion years before oxygen started. And even if you're not

interested in whether we're alone in the cosmos, every other Earth we find out there will tell us more about how an Earth works and how we can safeguard our own planet into the future. And so I think either way, are we alone in the universe or how do we take care of our beautiful planet? Both are very interesting research areas that we're getting into right now because we have this big telescope to start investigating. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. You said this place was steps from the water.

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and gives it emotional texture. Today, in partnership with French acoustic specialist's focal, name audio creates systems that deliver exceptional sound and unforgettable listening experiences at home. Try it for yourself at a focal powered by name boutique. Visit focal powered by name.com for more information. Is it possible that life has been and gone? So possibly even a civilization that's tried to search for life before there was any on earth before we appeared.

Or, you know, on the other hand, life that's yet to come that we may miss because sadly we may not be around anymore. I mean, essentially what I'm trying to ask is, what's the likelihood that this is a case of passing ships in the dark that there is, has been or will be a civilization in the future that we just may miss? That's a great analogy. And one of the fascinating things about the cosmos is that the further away something is, the further we look back in time, because light needs time to travel. So it's not necessarily just half the evolves at the same times as we have, but also are they too far away. So basically, let's assume they're 100 light years away from us.

So light needs 100 years from there to us and the other way around. they wouldn't see us having satellites yet, right? They would see the first radio signals because they would see us like we were 100 years ago. What about 5,000 years ago? Would they say, ooh, that's an interesting planet? Or would they say, oh, we're going to come later if there's day out there and the reverse? And so I think what we have going for us is that we have so many possibilities. Of course, we don't know how many of those will have life, but we're definitely going to miss some. And I think about it a little bit like when you walk out in the world, there are some people you will never meet, like Einstein or Marie Curie, because they were

just before us and some other ones that will come after us. But because there's so many people all around us, you get to meet quite a few super interesting people, some younger than us, some older than us. And then hopefully, and this is of course, now assuming that the universe were teaming with life. Maybe some of the ones that are gone, there might be stories left that somebody else can tell us with them. But we are just at the start of searching. So we don't know yet. And if there's one civilization in a billion, then your scenario makes a lot of sense, right? Because then maybe they just evolve faster or slower than us or the distances are vast. But so far, we still have all possibilities. Could be everywhere and then it's going to be a party. Or it could be very, very sparsely populated.

We don't know why, because carbon and water seems to be everywhere. But maybe there's something else that's needed or maybe there's something that's stopping evolution. We don't know. Then it would be kind of really sad. I would rather be not special and with lots of different civilizations out there than special and alone. So both are still in play. But so far, we have no showstopper. for saying why there couldn't be life on other worlds. Okay, so process of elimination first. But if we do end up being the aliens ourselves that other planets are searching for, I mean, we've sent things like Voyager 1 and 2 out in the hopes that people will find us as the aliens.

What's stopping them already? Like, why haven't we been found? That's a question that has been around for decades, I would say. Because, of course, if you think about, ooh, if somebody else were more advanced and they could see us, why isn't anyone there? What does it mean? And so a lot of times people then say, okay, so nobody's here. That means there's nobody out there. And then that is kind of scary because then you say, oh, that means maybe life does never evolve. Or maybe it means that technical civilizations actually kill themselves because the rocket that you need to put a satellite into space can also basically extinguish most of the life. on a surface. But when I look at the question, I think one of the things we're missing is an underlying assumption that everybody would come immediately when they see us. And in my class, I asked my students if they could choose between an advanced planet and one that's less advanced than us. So I always still like 5,000 years older than us and 5,000 years younger than us. And I only

have the resources to go to one, which one they would pick. And they reliably pick the more advanced one because they want to learn something, they want to figure out if there's flying cars, jetbacks, space stations, you know, things like that. And so when you turn that around and just assume there might be more than one planet with life out there, why would anybody come to us yet? Because you can't really learn much about us yet or from us yet,

even so, you know, Earth is my favorite planet. I love us. You know, it's not even a question. But I think if you had choices and we're like my students, then you go to a more advanced one. And so I think not having gotten any signals yet and not having found any alien life yet doesn't necessarily reflect that there's none there. It just reflects our capability of finding it.

And maybe also, you know, us not being 100% at the adult table yet, we can't make it. And one of the things that I folded into the book, I sometimes think of it, like, what about if it's like a cosmic reality TV show? So people look at this planet, if there's somebody out there, I don't know that. But they're basically like, ooh, ooh, look, they're making an ozone hole. Oh, no, planet. And then the next episode, yes, they fixed it. Go planet, go.

And now they're like, oh, oh, they're changing their climate. And then they're like, hopefully the next episode is going to be, go planet. You made it. You fixed it. You know, so I think it's also great to think about our own world as a world, not just the center of everything, but a world that goes through state. that goes through trouble, you know, that goes through the problems we can fix. I find that view quite comforting too. And sometimes I just wonder, you know, if somebody looks at us and we hear

the aliens in the scenario, what would they be sinking? Yeah, absolutely. And that was actually one of my favorite bits of the book. Actually, I love that, the Cosmic Television Show. I'd so watched that. And yeah, fingers crossed next episode, we solve climate change. And I just want to very quickly pick up on that, because you have mentioned it a couple of times. Just very quickly, could you tell us some of the ways that searching for alien life could practically help us solve our issues here? So there's a couple of aspects. When we search in space, we also learn more and more of our environment. And there you just can look back to the dinosaurs. They probably would have wished to have a space program that could like change the course of asteroids. And that's what we're doing right now, what NASA has started doing with the DART mission.

like nudging one asteroid out of its path because you don't want to destroy asteroids. We're not going Armageddon here like the movie, but we actually just want to nudge them off their path so they fly past the earth. So that's one. The earth is not just in a protected globe in space. It's part of it and we should know our environment. But the second one is also when we find these other Earth, we will learn more about how our own planet works. And the way I usually teach about this is to say, look, let's assume we find 100 older Earth. And they all show a lot of SO2 sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere that comes out of volcanoes. We can't breathe it. But that doesn't mean that it has to happen to the Earth. But it means that it would be smart to develop a technology

that can filter out SO2 of the air just in case it happens to all older Earth. And so looking at these other planets gives us a look into a possible future, but it also should show us what processes govern an Earth-like planet. Lisa, some of the foundational theories about finding other life seem to revolve around energy sources, which actually you've spoken about a little bit already, you know, not just Earth, not just planets, but could you tell me a bit about these? I mean, is this something that you have looked for, some of these hypothetical structures that aren't necessarily situated on a planet, but things that people get really excited about,

like the Death Star in Star, of course, being the classic example, these so-called Dyson spheres, which would indicate that a civilization was drawing energy from the sun, for example. What we are doing right now is we're trying to imagine what we could be doing in 50 years and 100 years. And one of the ideas is that we might have space stations out there, right,

that actually goes through our solo system on in 100. Maybe they're going to go to the next star. You know, this is basically where we hope we're going to get to. And then other questions is like, how are we going to do energy? You know, could we have something like a Dyson sphere that effectively, you know, gets us more and more energy to use? And so the interesting question there is that I think if you go 100 years back into the past, could they have imagined what we have right now?

So our search for techno signatures, I think is fascinating, but probably a very small part of what might be out there if there's technologies out there. And so with the gases that actually indicate that there's biological life on a planet, a biosphere, that for about 2 billion years we can find those if the planet is equivalent to ours, right? So we're just saying if it's a planet, our age,

for about half of its lifetime you could have found that. And what these techno signatures are and how long they could be around, we don't know yet. So we go back to finding or looking for the things that have been around for a long time and then keeping our eyes open for weird signals, for strange signals, or most of the planets we find right now, actually we find them because they go between us and the hot star. It's called a transit. So basically, for a little bit, we see the star as if it were less bright. The star stays the same brightness, but because the planet blocks part of the light from our view in the transit, it appears less bright. And for the earth that happens once a year for about 12.8 hours, so you have to keep staring, not to miss it. But when that happens, people are

already looking for weird shapes. What about if there is kind of a weird fear around it? What about if somebody put art into space. That's like a huge, I don't know, triangle, you know, could that shape would actually look different if it goes in front of the star. So for now, that are fun, interesting things we also look for. But because I think we'll have trouble imagine what technology we could have in 100 years, a thousand years, 10,000 years, we have it as an add-on. Anything that looks weird that we can't explain, we'd be like, ooh, somebody needs to look at this. And that's how it's science generally works. Yeah, look for the thing that created the art before you look for the art itself, maybe. Finally, Lisa, I now am going to put you on the spot. I didn't ask you that

terrible question at the start of this, and I'm not going to ask it again now. But I do want to know what you think about how long it will be till we do have an answer, i.e., when do you think we are going to find alien life? I think if we're lucky, and that means that life can start everywhere it could, and it modifies its planet. Because that's a lot of times what people don't put together. We don't need life to be there. We need life to change the planet so I can identify it. So it's basically our capability. What can we do? Right. And so the interesting thing is like, if that happens everywhere, right, let's say the Trappist One system or our closest star system, proxima centauri B. So then I would say five to 10 years. But if life is at the stage before it

produced unique science, this combination of oxygen and methane, before on the earths we had life, but it produced only CO2 and only methane. That is great because we know bacteria can produce that, but also volcanoes can produce that. And if I don't have a starship, and now all the engineers in the audience or people who think about engineering. Get us a spot starship, please, so we can actually double-check everything. But that's going to be a while because the distances are so vast. So if we're really lucky, then lives everywhere it could be, and it changes the planet like it did here, starting about two billion years ago, then we have five to ten years. What I think is amazing. If we're unlucky, and actually the closest star systems don't have,

life that already changes the whole planet, then we need a bigger telescope. And this is why astronomers always need a bigger telescope, because we need more light from things that are further away to, again, split them out in the colors. So I crossed my fingers that maybe we're just on the real lucky side. And so we're looking at the Trappist One system, and there's a couple of other close-by systems we can look at after in case we don't find anything there. And it's the verge of technical possibilities. So it's really hard to do. But for the first time ever, possible, to give us a shot at the five to ten years, if we're lucky. That was Professor Lisa Kultenegger on her new book, Alien Earth's Planet Hunting in the Cosmos, which is in bookshops

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