Instant Genius - How humans may soon become an interplanetary species

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

It’s now been more than 50 years since any human being has set foot on the Moon, but the ambition to do so again has been gathering pace over the last decade or so. But some scientists and researchers are looking further ahead and planning to establish a human presence on distant planets such as Mars. In this episode, we speak to physicist and director of the Foundation for Space Development Africa Dr Adriana Marais about her book Out of This World and Into the Next: Notes from a Physicist on Space Exploration. She tells us what plans to establish a Moon base in the coming years can teach us about living on other planets, how we’ll select the crew to take on this bold journey, and how the technology being developed can help us to live more economically and environmentally here on Earth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Combine handcrafted tradition with cutting-edge innovation and high-end materials, delivering digital precision with analogue warmth. So you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com to learn more. Hello and welcome to InsinGenius, a bite-sized masterclass in podcast form. Every Monday and Friday, you'll hear world-leading scientists and experts talking about the most fascinating ideas in science and technology today. I'm Jason Goodyear, commissioning editor at BBC Science Focus. It's now been more than 50 years since any human being has set foot on the moon.

But the ambition to do so again has been gathering pace over the last decade or so. But some scientists and researchers are looking further ahead and planning to establish a human presence on distant planets, such as Mars. In this episode, we speak to physicist and director of the Foundation for Space Development, Africa, Dr. Adriana Moray about her book, Out of this World and Into the Next, notes from a physicist on space exploration. She tells us what plans to establish a moon base in the coming years can teach us about living on other planets,

how we'll select the crew to take on this bold journey, and how the technology being developed can help us to live more economically and environmentally here on Earth. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks very much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me, Jason. A pleasure to be here. So we're talking about your new book today, out of this world and into the next,

Notes from a Physicist on Space Exploration. So a lot of this is centered on forming a colony on another planet, specifically Mars. So first thing, if we want to get to Mars, we're going to need a means of getting there. And currently rocket technology is, one, incredibly expensive. and just the sheer amount of fuel and the mass that that provides to the rocket is a bit of a hindrance. So what's the current thinking on new technology that will help us make this trip? Thanks, Jason, great question. Off the bat, let me say as a South African and as an African, I would not use the word colony.

So I would say expansion beyond a settlement. But this is a frequently used word. So perhaps that's the writer in me, getting the terminology. And I think the culture and the spirit with which we go is crucial. And perhaps that's why I would classify it, yes, as an expansion beyond Earth. Perhaps I even prefer that to settlement because I believe it's not about moving away from Earth at all, but rather expanding our perspective of the space that we live in, which is not in the future limited to only Earth, but very soon we'll be including the surface.

of the moon as a stepping stone to the surface of Mars. So, you know, on the propulsion technology side, not much has changed since the early 1900s. One of the fathers of rocket science, so Konstantin Silkovsky, proposed first to, you know, use liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen to propel rockets off the surface of Earth into orbit and beyond. And this was first demonstrated a few decades later. And of course, the first satellites, a few decades later, humans on the moon, can we believe before the internet even existed in the 1960s and 70s. So while there are, of course, cost limitations to propulsion systems, the technology basically exists.

We don't need nuclear fusion powered rockets, for example, or quantum computers to achieve this goal. The tried and tested technologies would be good enough. But as you say, there are, of course, challenges around the sheer amounts of mass that we would be wanting to transport when we are thinking about taking people beyond Earth. And then I think the leaders in developing more economic ways of getting large cargoes, including crew from Earth, the off-world, whether it be to the moon or Mars or beyond, are perhaps a company called SpaceX, which I'm sure space fans are all familiar with.

And then China, the 1.4 billion population countries, government, that's really rocketing ahead, could I say, in their space exploration program. With the success after success recently, I'm actually speaking from China currently. So it remains to be seen, you know, who does develop a launch vehicle that can launch, you know, perhaps certainly over 100 tons, hundreds of tons, maybe, maybe multiple launch vehicles because we'll not only be delivering people, but with their life support systems, but also, you know, all the requirements to build infrastructure there. So I think SpaceX and the Chinese space program are the two to watch here in terms of developing the systems that can pull us off.

So what's the current thinking on the length of the trip, if we were to go from, perhaps from a sort of moon base rather than the Earth, to Mars? Like, how long are we talking about? So the rovers, like the curiosity or the perseverance or the Tianwen mission that went to China's first mission to Mars, typically arrive in around seven months. that's the current current time frame, which when I look back is really not incomparable to the over, you know, across ocean journeys that our early ancestors would have made by ship. So it's on the order of a few months. We can probably reduce this time. So there are proposals to reduce this down to a few months, so say maybe three or four

months, like harboring the journey. Even more radical proposals using plasma-based propulsion systems or something like that where we can accelerate at 1G for half the journey, reorient the spacecraft, decelerate it one G for the other half of the journey to maintain Earth gravity throughout the trip. This could reduce the journey to just over a month. These kinds of propulsion technologies remain theoretical for now and test phase at least. But yes, the starship at the moment is probably, at least with what we're familiar in the public domain, the closest large vehicle to being able to achieve crew transport between Earth and Mars.

Yeah, and we still look forward to the first orbital test of the starship, which would, of course, be a necessary achievement to think about taking crew beyond Earth orbit to Mars. But it's an exciting time for space exploration. I think SpaceX has got another test of the starship any minute now. These are happening regularly. So it remains to be seen the orbital success and then finding out exactly what the duration of the trip to Mars would be on the starship. Yeah, so, of course, once the crew are in the starship, you know, they need to be kept alive, obviously that's essential. So what sort of life support systems are in

place, you know, how do they breathe, how do they eat and that sort of thing? So while living in Earth orbit, yeah, as the father is that humans live beyond Earth currently. I mean, we've had the International Space Station continuously inhabited for over 20 years now. We've also got six tychoids living in the Chinese Space Station also in orbit. And while this is not very far from Earth, for me it feels a bit close to home to be a real adventure, just a few hundred kilometers above the surface. This has been a fantastic test ground for keeping people alive in the environment that is space, exposed to radiation, vacuum, microgravity, etc. And we do indeed have good data and good experience on trips of approximately the duration of the trip to Mars.

So people would typically live in the space station for six months or more. And so this is a great data set with which to equip the crew traveling to Mars. So just a side note in terms of looking at the really important, I believe, parallels between space exploration and improving people's lives here on Earth. When we look at the fundamental technologies, that will be necessary to provide basic resources for our 8 billion and counting population here on Earth, we can really be grateful for the space industry for leading to the sophistication of many of these technologies that we enjoy today. You know, maybe people aren't aware that the first solar-powered satellite was launched

just like a year later than the first satellite Sputnik. So in the 1950s already we were demonstrating solar-powered capability in space, because while fossil fuel has been a popular choice for most energy production here on Earth for too long, perhaps, in space it's not feasible at all. So, you know, luckily we've been developing solar-powered technology. for decades to get the highly efficient, thin-file photovoltaics that we enjoy today. That's power. So when we look at water, arguably the next most fundamental resource, water of course being a source of oxygen at the same time as being a source of water for various

applications, also hydrogen as a source of fuel. So water is really a cornerstone of space exploration, water filtration systems, systems performing electrolysis that split the hydrogen and oxygen to provide each separately or recombine to produce electricity and water at the same time. These kind of systems have been used in space exploration also since the 60s. So we're in a good position to use these robust, you know, what you want when you send crews hundreds of millions of kilometers away from Earth. It's not necessarily to have brand new technologies fresh off the shelf or fresh out the research lab, tried and tested technologies that have been around decades are good to have.

So that's water filtration. Even the development of LEDs for growing food indoors or in confined laboratory spaces were sophisticated again by thinking about growing crops in the ISS. And now we already see how critical indoor precision agriculture can be, whether it's on a rooftop using solar power, perhaps in a basement using LED lighting. Yeah, the development of this precision agriculture, we could call it as another critical element for thinking about perhaps growing food on the way. to Mars, and certainly on arrival, whether it be the moon or Mars, for providing fresh food

and perhaps as a source of other nutrients or nitrogen itself or various applications of having an organic cycling mechanism like photosynthesis, or perhaps other microbes, used for fuel cells, you know, there are multiple applications of having other living species doing their thing, along with the humans in such a space. Of course, communication systems goes without saying how the space industry is, of course, not only revolutionized, but provided the infrastructure for our global communications network, providing, you know, financial transfer networks, obviously global communications, global positioning, you know, Earth observation data, etc. So, yeah, those are the primary categories that I think about when I think about living off Earth. Those power, water, food, or nutrition, let's say, and communication systems. Of course, then you need some kind of shelter to house all of these technologies.

But with those in place, then I think any human community can think about sophisticated further beyond that. And that applies not only to, you know, off-world communities on the moon or Mars, but like refugee camps, overcrowded urban centres, you know, shelter, safe shelter, reliable power, clean water, nutritious food and communication systems, I think, are essential for human communities everywhere. So how about things like psychological effects? So being in close proximity with a small group of people, it can be challenging. What can we say about that? What measures do we have in place?

Or even during the selection process, for example. So the selection process should be really interesting, and it's really difficult to predict how that may play out. So on the one hand, we've got one of the richest people on the planet, Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX, recently wanting to skip the moon and go straight, Mars. So this is really essential endeavor for him and the team he's put together at SpaceX. It remains to be seen when they would get people to Mars. Then on the other hand, we've got the Chinese space program that has said publicly that they aim to have crew on Mars by 23, I think it is.

So the next decade or so will be an interesting time. I think the Chinese space program will likely have their own national team that they would select. You know, there's maybe not too much mystery there about how that may proceed, although of course a different skill set is required of humans setting up camp on another planet than perhaps the skill set required for living just a few hundred kilometers above the surface of the Earth in the Earth orbit. But as a national program, you know, maybe we can predict how that will play out. On the other hand, looking at a private company like Space X developing transport systems with capability to get humans to Mars. I think it remains unknown how the selection of the crew that may eventually travel there would what that may look like.

Yeah, so that being said, I established proudly human when the Mars One project declared bankruptcy in 2019. I was one of the 100 international candidates selected for a one-way trip to Mars, which according to early predictions would have happened last year. So needless to say, that didn't go ahead. Hopefully my signal from China is okay, but I have indeed still on the planet. Yeah, so proudly human, the aim there was not to build the propulsion system because that takes probably two decades of experience and developing capabilities. SpaceX was established in 2002. Chinese space program has been around for a decade or two. So it's possible to get that together

in a couple of decades, but I wanted to look at the next aspect. As you mentioned, the selection of the crew and the kind of team spirit that you would want to encourage and the guys kind of conflict situations that you would want to mitigate. And I thought the best way to do that would be through a kind of trial and error process. So what this would look like is in contrast perhaps to other programs to not simulate an extreme environment, but to really go to an extreme environment. And so while simulation projects, you know, underground or in a submarine or in some part of the desert, you know, evacuation is typically possible within a few hours, typically. And so So the extremity of the conditions is maybe more simulated than real.

So the idea with Proudly Human was to select, and in the end we narrowed it down to three types of environment. One being Antarctica. So the reasons for selecting this environment are its true isolation. So during winter, it's basically impossible to evacuate. You know, you can't evacuate by boat because of the ocean freezing. Being evacuated by a plane or helicopter is like, yeah, an extremely treacherous endeavor. there are instances of people having been evacuated during winter, but only like less than like a couple to a handful in the total history of Antarctic exploration.

So you're really there for good in the winter with your team and with the infrastructure that you've brought with you. So the other added challenge is the cold. And when we look at the average temperature on Mars being negative 60 degrees Celsius, there are regions in Antarctica that are around negative 60 degrees Celsius during the winter. So that's a good comparison. Not being too heavily reliant on solar power, Mars does have, you know, around half of the incoming sunlight than Earth does compared to Earth. So in Antarctica, you would be forced to look at other sources of energy during the wintertime, whether that be wind or hydrogen fuel cells, perhaps, or modular nuclear reactors even. So this is a great way to look at power redundancy systems.

Redundancy of power is something you do want when you're in an extreme environment, i.e. if your diesel generator breaks. you do want multiple other options to fall back on. So that's a bit of thinking around Antarctica. I'll go through the environments and then maybe talk a bit about the psychology. So the desert would be the next one, and that's like playing around with extremely efficient water management. So how would you extract your water? If you're thinking about the moon or Mars, you may extract it from the ice that's present in the surface, as detected by various missions.

Then how would you manage your water? So this would be critical, you know, water cycling systems, ambient. humidity gatherers, the atmospheric water extraction within the habitat, perhaps, all of these kind of technologies integrated. And just looking at, you know, how efficient can you be with a group of people as well as preserving some level of cheerfulness in the group, like how many, like, is a liter of water enough to shower per day? You know, questions like this, we could answer and look at the results in the team spirit from being restricted water-wise. So that's the desert. And then the third environment would be under the ocean. So this is a good,

approximation to being in space where you need to suit up to go on, for example, a scuba diving excursion. And I visited the Aquarius Reef Base, a unique undersea research facility, 10 meters, the top of 10 meters, the bottom, 18 meters under the ocean off of the Florida Keys. Yeah, astronauts actually trained for the International Space Station. It's actually built as an analog of the space station. And again, you need, I think it's 17 hours of decompression to evacuate. So it's a fairly rigorous evacuation process, perhaps even longer or comparable to evacuating from the International Space Station. Although, of course, with the recent astronauts spending rather longer in the Space Station than expected, a 24-hour evacuation from the Space Station may be possible but not feasible in many cases.

So, yeah, these were three environments we looked at. And in these truly extreme places, the idea is to cycle sort of not completely random, but crews of people, including the central expertise required. Obviously, these are medical capabilities, engineering capabilities for the basic infrastructure. I would say the food side is the next most important. Once you've got your medical and your life support system going, you do want to be able to share meals, decent meals, hopefully. So even a chef could be considered part of the core team.

Researchers who are benefiting from being in this environment in the first place, do you want someone running karaoke periodically or brewing beer? these are the considerations to be made. But basically to look through, let me wrap up, to look through what kind of activities sustain team spirit and a sense of community and a sense of vision and purpose within the group and how can inevitable conflict be mitigated and quickly resolved. And I think rather than look at theoretical models of this,

I think it's really good to iterate these kind of experiments through many iterations, collect data, and then draw conclusions from the data. So we are looking for a broadcast partner for this activity. So if anyone's interested, that's the next step for the proudly human off-world project. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save?

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Visit focal powered by name.com for more information. So let's say everything's gone well then, and we've actually made it, we've landed safely. What happens next? You know, how do we, for example, how do you go about building new structures? I think this is really fascinating. In the past, I was anxious to get to Mars

because the moon is really part of Earth. it's only one light second away, you know, the national systems, the culture, all of what exists on Earth will most likely be copied on the moon. And so for me, Mars felt like the ultimate adventure where we'd really get to rethink community structures, governance, regulatory systems, and indeed human culture itself. However, now that we're going to the moon in the next few years, again, the US on the one hand, I think the data is still 2026, although that's becoming diminishingly possible. So in the next few years, let's say the US is planning to send U.S. and partners are planning to send crew back to the moon.

While China has said before 2030 for the Chinese and partners crewed base on the moon. So we will see how this pans out. And now I'm very keen to see how these structures are built ahead of the crew arriving. And then how the crew assists to expand these bases. Thinking about being underground is a good protection from radiation. So potentially already existing lava tube tunnels could be an option rather than excavating, which is obviously a mammoth task, requiring a lot of energy being the primary limitation here, as well as, of course, the equipment that needs to be transported.

So an existing cave system underground is probably my favorite option, which would, of course, need to be sealed and airlocks produced. But the lava tube structure really lands itself, I think, to there's like tunnels in between caverns. So you could put airlocks in the smaller openings and then have the caverns as larger spaces for all other activities. Yeah, this is one option. The easiest option is, of course, to just put up prefab structures on the surface that have been, you know, lightweight. Lightweight is possible, given that they also need to mitigate radiation on the surface, but certainly the easiest way is to live in the land.

So I've gone in reverse order here, but living in the land is probably what you would do initially, putting up some prefab structures next and perhaps in terms. integrating these with some kind of underground structure, potentially previously existing, could be one approach. But it's really going to be exciting, I think, to see US and partners in China and multiple partners. I'm a director at the Foundation for Space Development Africa, and we are a partner on the International Lunar Research Station with China. Our Africa to Moon mission, technology mission is going to the moon with the Changa 8 mission with China in 2029. And this is when the base will be beginning to be constructed. So it's going to be fascinating.

to see how this environment is dealt with on a technological level, preferably before the humans get there, because the lunar south pole, where we're planning to build the bases, is one of the most extreme environments in the solar system. Temperatures there can drop below negative 200 degrees Celsius. So this is way colder than, for example, Earth orbit. So traditional satellites are graded to maybe negative 60 degrees Celsius. They get periodically warm by the sun on their trips around the Earth,

whereas the lunar south pole with its 14 days of lunar night gets really cold. So the primary challenge, or one of the many challenges, is dealing with these cold temperatures and, of course, energy being the main factor there. So let's see. I think this is an exciting time for human exploration. Let's see how it's done. And talking about culture, let's see how these two teams collaborate, hopefully being the operative way with each other,

both aiming for the rather small region, relatively speaking of the Lunar South Pole. So you mentioned there, equipment. So obviously there's a limited amount of things that you can take. And if we're going to stay somewhere for an extended period of time, how would we produce our own new equipment, new tools, new clothing? Because we don't have a Star Trek style replicator yet, unfortunately. Not yet, not yet, but the 3D printing capabilities have been demonstrated by in both the ISS and the Chinese space station, various types from ceramics to metals,

et cetera. So we're on a journey to getting to a replicator, let's say. But then again, it really does make sense to use the moon as a testing ground. So in fact, the environmental conditions on Mars are easier than the moon. The temperatures don't get as cold. There's an albeit thin atmosphere that can protect slightly from radiation and regulate temperatures. The carbon dioxide and the atmosphere provides an additional resource. whereas on the moon it's like almost hard vacuum, extremely cold temperatures,

14 days of day, 14 days of night, etc. So getting things right on the moon will be a great stepping stone to go further. And when we look at the moon, back to your question, logistically speaking, resupply from Earth will be the primary way in which stuff is delivered. So it's a couple of day journey to the moon. And so if there's a critical resupply mission that needs to leave from Earth, it becomes an economic issue. And then, of course, reusable transport systems, as have been developed by SpaceX and also China,

of course, the future in the absence of any real revolutions and propulsion systems. As I've said, the technology hasn't fundamentally changed in over a century. So reusability is something great that we are able to implement immediately. And SpaceX has already shaved zero and more looking at the future prospects for some. starship off the cost of launching things from Earth. However, you know, when it comes to water, for example, which is rather heavy, this is the reason why the base is a plan for the Lunar South Pole is that there is water present there. So this is a fundamental resource, as I've mentioned, and the permanently shadowed craters found

at the South Pole, there's a correlation between the cold temperatures and the fact that this water hasn't sublimated away. This is then the location for this, such that the water, i.e. the fuel and the oxygen, and, of course, the water for people and agriculture can be extracted locally. This will be the beginning. We know there is the surface ice there. We've seen it from orbit. So the next step would be to think about what other resources we might extract there

and how we may do that and how that may then feed into industry. And then we back to your question, which is how we process all of these things. But I think it will be a learning process as we go. And hopefully there are many young people thinking about these challenges already because in the next 10 to 20 years, I think the ideas about how to not only extract but process and manufacture on the moon will be really hot topics. So clearly you're very enthusiastic about this whole thing, but obviously the whole endeavour will be hugely expensive.

And there are some critics that say, well, we shouldn't even be considering this due to the amount of money and resources that it's going to take, which they'd argue could be put to better use elsewhere. So what are your arguments for taking something like that? this on. So interestingly, before I get onto the question, Africa to Moon hasn't relied on any funding at all so far. So all of our engineers, a team of over 30 people, have volunteered their time. Our scientists also part of that team. China has offered space on their launches to the Lunar South Pole, so we are piggybacking with the Changa 8 mission. We have brought partners

on board from test facilities to manufacturing partners. So through the sheer passion and excitement and vision of both our leadership team. The mission director, Carla Sharp-Mitchell, has a formidable networks in space and engineering. And I think through the inspiration of this project, people have joined voluntarily. So there's an example of doing space with zero budget. We've demonstrated that it is possible. And I think this is a massive inspiration to the developing world that you don't need to get the billion dollars first. You can actually start with the passion and work from their app all the way to the moon, as it were, and we're applying for a payload for a future, upcoming Mars mission as well, technology at this point, of course.

But back to the other question, you know, how has investing on Earth solved poverty? You know, I think that's the question people wondering about spending their money or other people spending their money should answer. I would argue inequality has increased propelled by COVID, various conflicts around the world. We are watching an increase in inequality. and it's not a zero-sum game where these high net worth individuals need to decide are they going to invest in solving poverty or in space exploration. I think each person can make their own choice. I think on the government level, looking at a government like China, arguably a very unique one with a very large population and rather influential globally lately.

They've made a huge turnaround of their economy, let's over the last few decades. So I would say they've simultaneously invested in mitigating poverty and indeed growing their middle class massively. And I'm looking out the window here at the infrastructural developments that are underway. So I think and their space program in parallel has achieved goals that others would have thought impossible over the short time frame that they've achieved them. So that's an example of the government that has chosen to do both, demonstrating that it is possible. And I think even thinking back to the technologies that I mentioned and how investing in space, is investing in Earth. If we stay on Earth, you know, I think it remains to be proven whether Einstein actually said this, but somebody said that you can't solve the problems using the thinking

that was used to create the problems. So if we remain on Earth and we don't explore whether physically or metaphorically beyond the paradigm that we find ourselves in, we may find ourselves unable to solve the challenges that we face. So there are ways in which our society would be advanced by living on the moon or Mars or beyond in ways that we can't even imagine. There are also ways that we can already imagine, like thinking about power systems, thinking about water, thinking about food production. If we can demonstrate highly efficient use of these three in a sustainable way on the moon,

then it becomes really difficult to justify the continued poverty in which so many people on earth live without access to reliable power, clean water and nutritious food. So I think they're massive parallels in the investment. So I think we can invest in alleviating poverty and space exploration at the same time. And as someone from Africa, that is certainly top of mind for me in these endeavours. So one final question then. Are you confident that we'll be able to pull this off? Good question. I think these are an exciting few years coming ahead where I may not need to answer that question because we will see. We will see. So with the US and partners and China, and partners all aiming to put crew on the moon, you know, the fact that it's this competition again,

I think is a collaborative effort would be better, but perhaps it will turn into that. So if it has to be a competitive-based way in which we get back to the moon, then so be it. But this will be a great test ground, technologically speaking, for preparing for further journeys. And if we manage to create permanently inhabited research bases on the moon, as I've said, this is a more extreme environment than Mars. So then all that remains to do, as you have questioned earlier on, is to get the economics right for the propulsion systems, because technologically speaking, and, you know, I consider myself a scientist and a technologist. In my book, I do talk about the ethics and the cultural aspects. But I think what remains there,

is really the business and economic side, and that's not really my sphere. So then I could say, after cruiser living on the moon, I would say the science and the technology is done. It's proven. Then it's just a bit of courage is all that's required to expand further, perhaps some economic bravery. But I think these things do pay off, maybe not immediately in a financial sense, but as a society, I think our perspective of reality will be advanced in such vast ways, actually priceless ways. that I don't think putting a price tag on it really measures the kind of impact that it will have. I think for those of us who dream about exploring beyond Earth,

we will keep endeavouring whether or not we have the budget. And then it's up to those people with the budget to decide which aspects they'd like to fund. But luckily, we've got huge players in the game spending billions of dollars, even to answer questions like, is their life beyond Earth? So the rovers on Mars are dutifully carrying out their tasks of looking for organics, and the next step is really to get humans there to not only look for life but to establish it. And so I would say in summary, watch the space. It's going to be a hell of a ride the next few years for human space exploration.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Vincent Genius, brought you from the team behind BBC Science Focus. That was Dr. Adriana Moray. To discover more about the topics we've just discussed, check out her book, Out of this world and Into the Next. notes from a physicist on space exploration. If you liked what you just heard, then please do consider subscribing to Instant Genius on your preferred podcast platform.

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