Instant Genius - How to break free from the negative cycle of overthinking

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

While the human mind is capable of great insight, original thoughts and acts of tender kindness towards others, it can also, at times, act like our own worst enemy. Feelings of worthlessness, shame and disappointment can all stem from our brain’s natural inclination for overthinking. This can give rise to a wide range of debilitating impacts on our lives, such as low self-esteem, anxiety and depression and can even lead to the development of significant physical health issues. So, why do our minds seem to sabotage us in this way and what measures can we take to free ourselves from the common traps that lead us to being stuck in endless loops of negative thinking? In this episode, we’re joined by Dr Jessamy Hibberd, a clinical psychologist and best-selling author, to talk about her latest book, The Overthinking Cure – How to Free Your Mind and Focus on What Really Matters. She tells us how common habits such as self-criticism, comparing ourselves to others, and actively avoiding our problems can all lead us to overthink, why we are all vulnerable to getting stuck in spirals of negative thoughts, and how learning to manage where we place our attention is often the first step we can all take to help us to boost our moods and wellbeing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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audio.com to learn more. Hello and welcome to Instant Genius, a bite-size master class in podcast form. Every Monday and Friday, you'll hear a world-leading scientist and experts talking about the most fascinating ideas in science and technology today. I'm Jason Goodyear, commissioning editor at BBC Science Focus. While the human mind is capable of great insight, original thoughts and acts of tender kindness towards others, can also at times act like our own worst enemy.

Feelings of worthlessness, shame and disappointment can all stem from our brain's natural inclination for overthinking. This can give rise to a wide range of debilitating impacts on our lives, such as low self-esteem, anxiety and depression, and can even lead to the development of significant physical health issues. So why do our minds seem to sabotage us in this way? And what measures can we take to free ourselves from the common traps that lead us to being stuck in endless loops of negative? thinking. In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Jessamy Hibbert, a clinical psychologist and best-selling author, to talk about her latest book, The Overtinking Cure, How to Free Your Mind and Focus on What Really Matters. She tells us how common habits such as self-criticism, comparing ourselves

to others, and actively avoiding our problems can all lead us to overthink, why we're all vulnerable to getting stuck in spirals of negative thoughts, and how learning to manage where we place our attention is often the first step we can all take to help us boost our moods and well-being. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on the show. So today we're talking about your book, The O overthinking Cure, how to free your mind and focus on what really matters. So I don't know, I think we could all do with a bit of that, to be quite honest. So let's get the first question out of the way, overthinking. I'd mention most people have an inkling what we mean by this, but do you have a definition that we can start from?

Yeah, I suppose that one of the things I'm keen to do in the book is not say that thinking is the problem. You know, it's only overthinking that causes us problems and our brain's always trying to make sense of things and find meaning or keep us safe. It's when we get stuck, particularly on negative thoughts and feelings or negative events and keep going over them and dwelling on them that it causes us problems. And that's how I define it in the book. Yeah, so the kind of overriding thesis is that we really do need to be taking this more seriously than perhaps we are. So let's have a look. Can you like give us a sort of cliff's notes of the negative consequences that this can lead to? Yeah, I think that's something I found really

striking when I was researching the book. You know overthinking causes you problems, but the extent of the problems that causes you were beyond what even I imagined. And in the book, I say it should come with a health warning because it doesn't just make you feel bad in their moment and it's not just wasting your time and energy. It has a damaging impact on your confidence and self-esteem. It actually amplifies the problem because it puts it under this scrutiny and magnifies all the problems in your life. You know, in my clinic, I see it with the people I work with, comes into pretty much every problem I see, but actually what the research shows is it's not just a precursor to mental health problems, it's also an offshoot of them. And that it can even damage

your physical health as well, because the agitation and physical discomfort that it causes can lead to things like high blood pressure, even heart disease. So there's this huge list of problems it causes. So would you say that overthinking as an issue is on the rise these days? Yeah, I think that it is on the rise. And what's interesting in terms of some of the recent research is that we always used to see this U graph when it comes to happiness. And so for younger people and older people, happiness would be high and it kind of dipped around our 40s. Whereas what that graph now shows, and I see you laughing at the 40s bit, but what it actually now shows is that for younger people, it stays much lower and that that's actually a really difficult period. And I certainly see that. that again in my clinic, that this is a really big problem for younger people, but it's not just those who are affected and things like, you know, perfectionism or thinking that we should be living our best life for making us much more likely to overthink.

You know, the idea that we can control life and take charge of everything in it is another kind of thing that feeds it. And I think in many ways, if you even go back 100 years, our expectations for life then were very different. You know, we knew life was hard, that it involved suffering, and we didn't feel we were getting it wrong if that was the case. Whereas now I think that's quite different and that's one of the causes. Yeah, so we'll get into this like improper in a bit.

But I'd like to know, why are we so prone to it? Because a lot of things have a sort of evolutionary basis. And it's like, well, if you just said, this is causing us no end of harm. So sort of where does it come from? Yeah, and you're exactly right. And I think one of the key things is that as a species we've evolved to learn from our experiences, rather than just thinking about things. And we would have been knocked down pretty quickly

if we didn't adapt well and respond to difficulty with ease. But in terms of that kind of threat focus and survival of the fittest, then we had to get on in a group to survive. We needed to be in kind of have certainty as far as possible so we knew what was coming and what to expect and could avoid danger.

And actually that also meant a kind of need for control. And when you think about those as roots of kind of overthinking, you know, comparison, worrying about what other people are thinking, wanting to be in control of life, wanting to avoid uncertainty. It's really understandable that when those mix together in a problematic way, it can cause us problems. And that not only that, you know, when you're overthinking these things, you're not just thinking about it. You're actually imagining it and running through the scenario as if it's happening to you. And I always think about it a bit like, you know, if you go to the cinema, you might be in the cinema watching it,

but you leave if it's a, you know, really emotive film or a scary one, you leave totally exhausted because you've been through it as if you were there. And it's the same with overthinking. That evolved response that keeps us safe doesn't distinguish between thoughts and physical things. So it has that huge impact on us. Yeah, so you mentioned some there, but in the book you sort of centering on some common traps that can trigger overthinking. So things like catastrophizing, dwelling on things.

things, feeling victimized, etc. And I think, you know, lots of people listening will be like, oh, you know, I can relate to those. So what are some of these key situations? And, you know, why are they so common? I guess, again, it links to, so, for example, that need to get one in a group. That meant that you had to be aware of social hierarchy. You needed to know what other people were thinking and guess at, you know, how they were

feeling and getting on. and if you were cast out the group, you know, in evolutionary terms, that would have meant likely death. So even though we're not in those same situations, those responses are still part of how we react. And again, you know, like it's not that all of this is bad, but when it becomes overthinking,

that's when it causes us problems. And yeah, in the book I outline seven different thinking types as a way to start to understand how overthinking operates in you and the types of overthinking you're most prone to because we don't all overthink in the same way. And as you list, you know, some of us might get really angry when we're overthinking and feel like the victim of our experiences, which is one type. Some of us catastrophize like you highlighted where we kind of worry about things or go through worst case scenarios. For some of us, it might be dwelling and imagining we've made the wrong choice and going back over kind of us, the situation and the decision we made at the time and feeling regret and remorse and going over and over it.

it really varies depending on the type of personality and person you are. Yeah, so let's dig into some of these a little bit more deeply then. So like you just mentioned there, a lot of us have a sort of own inner critic, which you write about. And I don't think I'm, you know, speaking for myself here, but I'm much more accepting of others' mistakes and transgressions than I am of my own. At times, like these can sit with you for months. Like something I have, which I think a lot of people do is, you know, I'll be having a shower. and then suddenly something will strike me, something that I did, perhaps even years ago. I think, no, you know, why did I do that?

Am I a bad person? You know, why do we get that? And, you know, what can we do to help ourselves sort of overcome these negative opinions of ourselves? I think what you describe is really relatable and that that also commonly happens, you know, just as people are nodding off to sleep, suddenly they're reminded of something they did three years ago that was, you know, hugely embarrassing or awkward. And again, our brain is trying to be helpful. You know, it's trying to make sense of what's happened. It's trying to protect us from ever going through something like this again. And so when we feel that feeling and it reminds us off that thought, it's saying,

do you know what? Maybe you should think about this. So you don't ever get in that situation again, because you felt really bad about it. The trouble is when we start to overthink it, we don't just think about that instant. We think about all the times we've done stupid things. Or we go over what happened in minute detail as if we're living through it again. And like you say, if you were, you know, with somebody and they said something a bit silly or, you know, did something awkward, you probably think maybe in the moment when you're there with them, but you're not going to be thinking about them afterwards. That over-focus that you describe, you know, we certainly put ourselves under so much more scrutiny at a level that isn't realistic to what anybody else will

be seeing. And if you take that example, say of, I don't know, if you're a confident person and you're with a group of people and you say something and you're a bit embarrassed, the difference is that you go home and you still cringe about it and you still think, oh God, why did I say that? But instead of spending the next three days, analysing it and going over it with a fine tooth comb and almost being pulled into quicksands, you just stop and you're like, well, hold on, we all do that sometimes and they know me well enough to know I didn't mean that. So they don't go down that route of kind of going into it more and more and then collecting more and more evidence to match up with them being a really awful person.

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So let's have a look at another angle of this then concerning other people. So you also talk about a sort of tendency to compare ourselves to others, which I think, you know, a lot of people have a huge issue with, you know, why is such and such more successful than me better at this and this and that or whatever. Why do we do that? And, you know, why does it become such an issue for many of us? Yeah, I think, again, it's back to this evolved response. And that what's really interesting about the research on comparison is, you know,

it's all very well saying don't compare, but actually it's this automatic response. And so our brain is always on the lookout for how we're doing and comparing ourselves to others to see, you know, a sense of belonging, but also hierarchy and where we fit in. but when it comes to overthinking we never do that in a good way we cherry pick all the best bits from other people and we then kind of hold up different people to different parts of ourselves instead of saying you know all these things are who I am and me comparing all the things you are you know it's still not great to do that but it would be a fairer way to but instead we say well Gary's good at this you know so and so so is good at this and I'm not good at any of these things and we don't take in the full picture of what's going on

but also that automatic response means that as soon as you'll say, I don't know, on social media, you aren't consciously thinking, how am I doing? Your brain's just automatically responding to what it sees. And whereas before we had quite a small pool of people to draw comparison from, often people who we knew well and who were quite like us, we've now got this huge pool of people. So it's this really unfair comparison. And we, you know, going back to that idea of self-criticism,

it's kind of self-criticism in disguise too because it's like, well, you're not doing as well as that. And, you know, so-and-so is doing better than you here. And why do you always struggle with that? So it's this really horrible effect. Yeah, so you mentioned confidence there. And I mean, this is very subtle. It seems to me like such a very difficult thing to pin down. You know, personally speaking, sometimes I have it.

Sometimes I don't. But is confidence kind of a skill that we can always? learn? Yeah, I think it is. And I think what you highlight is really key that when you're confident, you don't just feel confident all the time. Actually, I think of confidence and insecurity more like a circle that are intertwined. And we go from kind of the low of being a bit unsure and not being kind of certain that we can do it to then the high of doing it and seeing that we've managed to. But instead of just saying there, we're then on to the next thing. And going around that circle builds self-knowledge, so we start to get to know ourselves better, what we're capable of. On that

circle, we might well make some mistakes, but we see that actually we cope with it better than expected or it taught us something worth knowing about ourselves. And that information that we begin to accumulate can be really useful for our kind of view of ourselves and put you in a really good position, say the next time you're not feeling confident with something, being able to say, well, do you know what, last time you felt a bit like that. And it is really nerve-wracking before you do these things, but you were really glad you did it last time. And it helps us to differentiate between the mood we're currently in and all those anxious predictions and expectations and bringing it back to kind of the reality of how it might go. And so the more you work on your

confidence and, you know, in step five, I talk a lot about facing your fears and action being the antidote to overthinking, the more you accumulate evidence and actively disprove those negative of thoughts, the better chance you have a feeling good about yourself and seeing what you're capable of. Yeah, so related to that is our sort of natural tendency for avoidance. You know, when we're confronted with, we're sort of almost any problems, really. One of our tendencies is to just put it aside, I don't have to think about that, I'll avoid it. But of course, we all know that only makes it worse. So, you know, why do we, do that? And do we really, you know, have to take the bull by the horns and take these things on?

Is that beneficial? Yeah. And I think you're exactly right. When you're overthinking, you're pushed into the discomfort of how it might be. And actually, avoidance is an aversion of that discomfort. And in a funny way, you know, overthinking is a faulty coping strategy as a way to try and avoid that vulnerability and discomfort. And part of the problem with overthinking is seeing that as something to fear. Because when you do and you think, oh, I don't feel good, you know, I shouldn't do it. And you end up avoiding it and you don't get a chance to prove your anxious predictions wrong.

And you also don't have a chance to recognize that, you know, that discomfort isn't telling you not to do it. It's just a sign that you care about this and you want it to go well and you're nervous that it might not go well. And I think that's the other big issue when we focus on our feelings and we don't match that up with our previous experiences, for example, when we talked about confidence, you know, that idea that actually have done this before and it was okay. Or even like, you know, if I think of one I can often end up voiding is that I'll have made a really nice plan for the evening. And I've had a really busy day and I think, oh, I think I'm too tired for this.

and what I've learned with the help of the book, and just from experience as well, but actually writing the book has really helped, is how I feel at the time isn't how I'm going to feel when I get there. And so I might feel like it's the last thing I feel like doing, but actually I've just got to go because every single time I go, I always have a nice time, and I'm always pleased that I've gone.

And when we start to take action, we have a chance to see that. But in some ways, I think modern life has made it so much easier to avoid because whether it's, I don't know, not even having to go to the shops anymore because you can do your order online or whether it's seeing all your friends on social media rather than meeting them in person, all these small ways that we're kind of confronted with discomfort are taken away from us. So we don't get that kind of naturally inoculation against difficulty and see that that feeling goes when you take action. And that actually, you know, often people say to me, well, I just want to think more about it. but the reality is clarity comes often from action, not before it. And doing these things gives you so much useful information,

but it also is an end to the thinking, a shift of your attention, and a chance to boost your mood. So another thing really that I was thinking about when I was going through the book is that the notion of perspective, you know, sometimes, unfortunately, we do experience genuinely tragic events. but oftentimes we do start ruminating and overthinking just the small stuff. So is there anything that we can do to get a bit more perspective? Yeah, absolutely.

And I think it's such a good point that when we feel things, that first feeling isn't the problem, whether it's something really awful or whether it's something small. You know, feeling things is just a reaction and kind of useful information to what's going on in our lives. it's that second wave of feeling that's the problem. So if you start to pick over it and keep going over it, essentially you're suffering twice. And in the book, I think about overthinking as a problem with your spotlight of attention.

So if you imagine for a minute that you are a lighting technician and a theatre, and you get to control the spotlight and what the audience sees, you can have this broad beam that lights up the whole stage and all the actors, or you can have a narrow beam and focus it on just one person. And when it comes to overthinking,

it's imagining that this stage is your mind and that spotlight is your attention. And I think of overthinking as a problem with that spotlight because it gets stuck on this one tiny detail and it casts the rest of your life into darkness. And as you say, it totally changes your perspective and your experience of life. And what you're seeing at the time feels so real.

And what's worse is when our focus narrows and our negative emotions come in, it really does narrow our attention and our ability to access, you know, good problem solving and creative thinking and, you know, ask for help from others. But we also have a negative bias, so we disregard any information that could prove a different view. And what we really need is to broaden that beam again, because that's like boosting our mood and bringing a broader focus and perspective to our life. And so in the book I outline lots of ways that you can start to do that, because it's exactly like you say, how you're thinking and how life feels, it's so real. It's not just stop thinking about

it. It feels so believable, but it's not the whole perspective of what's going on. Coming off the back of that, we've been speaking a lot about like our actions and, I mean, possibly mistakes or regrets, I suppose. But how about automatic negative thoughts that we all experience? So this really feeds into this whole idea of overthinking. And they seem to to come from nowhere sometimes. So what are they and, you know, what can we do to kind of bat them away? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the other side of overthinking. It can be purposeful and thinking about something and going over it. But what's really interesting is that often it isn't that obvious. And particularly when you do overthinking a lot, it becomes habitual.

So you're thinking about these things without even realizing. And, you know, if you think about your thoughts at the time, you're just taking them as the truth. rather than pausing for a second to consider whether this is the whole truth of what's going on. And when they're automatic, actually, you know, as you say, it's much, much harder to notice them. And that's why in my books, step one is notice. So we start to see, okay, what are the topics that I overthink the most? And some people can find really easily, but others, you know, they come dressed up as helpful. So it might be that people, you know, really common examples that they think about every single

scenario of how something's going to go. And they say, I'm not overthinking. That's helpful. I've got a plan then for everything that happens. Or another one that I found really interesting and hadn't been aware of before is that we compare ourselves to a previous version of ourselves. So we say, oh, well, I never used to be this tired or I never used to find things this hard. And again, that's actually overthinking. And so once you start to say, well, hold on a second, whenever I'm feeling bad, I always end up down that route of thinking. But it's not really what's going on here. We start to identify those automatic thoughts.

And when you notice them, then you've actually got a chance of thinking differently and saying, you know, the next step is to choose your response. Do you want this to be what you're focusing on? Is this how you want to be thinking about things? Is this what you want taking up space in your mind? Rather than, you know, just following a point. pathway to who knows where. Let's have a look at some of the things that we can do then.

So one thing we hear a lot about now is the concept of mindfulness. So, you know, people throw this term around all the time. So what does that actually mean? And how can we apply it in our daily lives to stop our minds, you know, sort of running wild in this way? Yeah. Mindfulness is a really good one. And so once you've done step one notice, in step two with choose, it's one of the strategies I

highlight because it brings your attention back to the present moment and allows you to choose what you want to focus on. And I think when we think of mindfulness, people often think of meditation or kind of a structured way of doing this. But actually in the book, I try to make it as easy as possible to do. And it's just essentially doing one thing at a time and finding ways to be mindful in what you're doing. So whether that's taking yourself out for a walk and really noticing the souls of your shoes on the floor of the ground and the sound of the birds and the feel of the sun on your skin if it's a nice day or rain at the moment. And when you tune in your senses to what's going on, it really brings you to the present. And rather than walking around still thinking

about the same topics you were thinking about before you left the house, you can zone into what's happening now. And there's lots of different simple ways you can do that, even I think that cooking can be a very mindful activity or listening to a podcast, just that focus on what you're doing and and keeping your whole focus on that. So if we do get stuck in one of these sort of loops and tend to bury it, can we actually sort of, how can I say, reset our mind, reset our thinking? Yeah. And I think the thing is it's making an active choice.

And often people say, you know, I've got no control over my thoughts. they just happen to me. But I'm sure we can all think of times when we've been, you know, deep in our thoughts and then someone's phoned us and suddenly our attention's focused or we've had to go and do something or go to a meeting. We have more control over our thoughts than we might believe. And again, when we choose our response, it's broadening that spotlight of attention and boosting our mood so that we feel a bit better. You can't think your way out of a negative feeling. It's like digging to get out of a hole. So you can use mindfulness or you can choose. to do something pleasant or neutral. You know, the research shows you only need to do it for about eight minutes. They put two groups. One was allowed to be distracted from their thoughts and the other was focusing on their thoughts more and the distracted group felt significantly better after and with overthinking less and the overthinking group felt much worse.

So you only need to do that for eight minutes and another good one is using the mind-body link. So changing how your body feels as a way to feel better. once your mood's a bit higher, then you can move on to step three and challenge the thoughts. But actually, if you're feeling really awful or you're in the midst of a really anxious thought or those spirals feeling out of control, thinking about it then is the last thing you want to do. You want to feel better first and actively disengage from that thinking loop. Yeah, so if we're challenging these things, and I mean, sometimes depending on the,

I guess there's a scale of severity, you know, is there anything we can, do to like once we're we're in the midst of grappling with with these thoughts, you know, what, how can we sort of make them more of that process more effective? Yeah, like you say, sometimes it could just be, I don't know, a driver beeps at you and you kind of think, oh, can't believe that, you know, and like you're running through all this annoyance and then if you catch yourself, you can say, well, hold on a second, I don't know who they are. I don't want this to be carried through my day. I'm not going to think about this. almost thinking of your thoughts like a parade, just watching them go by and not getting involved.

But like you say, sometimes it's not that easy to do that. So if you notice that you're still being pulled back to it, then it's changing how you feel first. And then it's starting to challenge the thoughts and really starting to think, okay, is this the truth of what's going on? Is this a fair assessment of what's happening? And again, I outline lots of different strategies, but it's things like, I don't know if it's with a friend, can I read minds? You know, do I really know exactly what they're thinking?

Or is some of what I'm thinking, a projection of my thoughts onto them? Or being able to give the benefit of the doubt. So if someone, I don't know, hasn't replied to your message, being able to say, well, do you know what? Maybe they just have been really busy today and they haven't had a chance to get around to it. Another challenge that I really like is the idea of turning confirmation bias on its head. So we're always trying to prove our thoughts to be wrong.

right, our brain's always trying to kind of collect information to do that. And often when we're not feeling good, we think, you know, I'm useless. And we think about all the ways that we're useless or that we muck up or, you know, why we might not be feeling good. But actually, you can turn it around and start to think, well, actually, what good's been happening in my life? Or what are the ways that things are starting to change? And when you start to shift your attention and collect that information, and particularly when it comes to your thoughts, writing things down really helps because it makes them more concrete, but also you have a chance to see them in black and white and actively disprove them and think differently. And another really simple one, like you said,

before, with our friends, often we can see things so differently. We wouldn't be nearly so harsh or tough on friends if they told us about something. We'd go out of our way to think about all the kind of positive or neutral explanations. So again, like, how would I think about this if it was a friend? Yeah, so expanding on something that you just mentioned there and something personally I've been doing for several years, which I think has been a great help. It's journaling. So first thing in the morning, I tend to write my thoughts down. Last thing at night. You know, is that something that can help us all with this sort of thing? Absolutely. And I think it's again a way to start to notice what's on your mind and to see what you're

thinking about. And often when it's just kind of spinning around in your head, it feels more out of control whereas when you put it down on paper, you can see what you're dealing with and you can then take action if you need to to challenge those thoughts or do something about it. And I think the great thing about writing things done is you also start to see some of the patterns and some of the ways that say, I don't know, before doing the things that you're a bit nervous of, you always end up overthinking or when you're in social situations, you end up overthinking more. And so you start to notice what your kind of hotspots are. And also, you're a bit of. And also, you're in social situations, you end up overthinking more. And so you start to notice what your kind of hotspots are

and also whether there's this kind of repeating thought that comes up because often with overthinking we have kind of a few different ways that we overthink and it tends to repeat the same thing again and again. Yeah, so we've talked about a fair bit there. So obviously the message is buy the book and have a read through because there's lots of, I haven't said, but there's lots of sort of exercises and things spaced throughout the book in each chapter.

that people can go through to help them think about this, you know, more clearly, etc. But what sort of single or like a few points as a takeaway that someone listening is thinking, oh, you know, I've fallen foul of overthinking and now I recognize it. What's the first step really that they can take? Well, I suppose the first step is acknowledging that it is a problem. And as we started with, you know, actually overthinking is the problem, not the solution. and starting to see that it's really not helpful. It only leaves you feeling worse

because when you acknowledge this, it leaves so much more room to make changes. And I think a second part of what we, you know, stemming from what we talked about at the beginning is this idea that our expectations really feed into how we feel and how we think about things. And one of the biggest problems, and again showing up in the research for overthinkers,

is that they should feel good or happy all the time. And so then when, of course, you know, we don't feel good all the time, it triggers that thought that says, oh, why aren't you feeling good enough? What's wrong? And you suddenly are doing this deep dive analysis on all the problems in your life. The expectation you've got for how happy you think you should be has a big impact and actually trying to be happy makes us more unhappy. So just being a bit fairer. And again, acceptance is in the book too and just thinking about how do we accept the reality of life and that we have the full range of emotions,

actually we're not going to feel good every day. You know, if we feel upset or angry or anxious, it's looking at what's triggered that so we can do something about it rather than thinking we've made a mistake or there's something wrong with us. And then I think if I was going to say one of the big things that makes a difference,

it is facing your fears and starting to take action and going back to that idea of avoidance that you raised. when we avoid the things we're fearful of or that we think we're not going to do well out or that we're worried about, then we never get a chance to see a different view. And again, the research shows that we're terrible at making predictions.

We rarely get it right. And I think the stat is something like 97% of what we worry about doesn't come true or we cope better with than expected. And to really encourage people to go out there and not let overthinking narrow their life and shrink it. but to, you know, as it says in the site title, to consciously choose to do the things that matter to you. And when you know life isn't perfect

and that you're not going to get it right all the time and that it's okay to suffer sometimes and that that's not you getting things wrong, actually it leaves you freer to go and try and do those things without this huge expectation of doing it perfectly or a fear of failure. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius, brought to you from the team behind BBC Science Fakers.

That was Dr. Jessamy Hibbred. To discover more about the topics we've just discussed, check out her book, The O overthinking Cure, how to free your mind and focus on what really matters. If you liked what you just heard, then please do consider subscribing to Incentenius on your preferred podcast platform. If you'd like to say our guests and hosts in person,

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