Instant Genius - Jim Al-Khalili: Why should we care about science and scientists?

Episode Date: October 30, 2019

Every Tuesday morning, physicist and science communicator Jim Al-Khalili presents the long-running radio programme The Life Scientific on BBC Radio 4. On 5 November 2019, the show celebrates its 200th episode, so we caught up with Jim just after recording this landmark show. He talked to us about what it’s like to work on The Life Scientific, he fights the corner for creativity in science, and reveals why research and scientists keep him optimistic about the future. Subscribe to the Science Focus Podcast on these services: Acast, iTunes, Stitcher, RSS, Overcast Let us know what you think of the episode with a review or a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts. Listen to more episodes of the Science Focus Podcast: Dr Tilly Blyth: How has art influenced science? Richard Dawkins: Can we live in a world without religion? Bill Bryson: What should we know about how our bodies work? Gretchen McCulloch: How has the internet affected how we communicate? Monica Grady: What is the future of space science? Jim Al-Khalili: Why AI is not the enemy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm optimistic that science will come good in the end. And if you look back over the course of history, life now is a lot better than it was 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, because science has allowed us to understand the world. And in understanding the world, we've made our lives more comfortable, you know, whether it's medicine,

whether it's in technology, than it's ever been before. and I say, see no reason why that shouldn't continue. You're listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team. With the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com will look out for us in your app store. Hello, I'm Alexander McNamara, online editor at BBC Science Focus magazine.

Every Tuesday morning, physicist and science communicator Jim Al-Khali, presents the long-running radio program The Life Scientific on BBC Radio 4. On the 5th of November this year, the show celebrates its 200th episode, so we caught up with Jim just after recording this landmark show. He talked to us about what it's like to work on The Life Scientific,

he fights the corner for creativity and science, and reveals why research and scientists keep them optimistic about the future. Remember, if you like what you hear, then please rate and review the episode wherever you listen to your podcasts. It really helps get the show out there which means we can bring you even more interviews with the people at the forefront of science.

And now here's Alice Lipscomb Southwell, talking to Jim Al-Kalili. So Jim, you're the presenter of BBC Radio 4th The Life Scientific, in which you talk to leading scientists about their work. I've just recorded the 200th episode, or that's what you just told me anyway. So can you tell me who that episode was with and what you chatted about? Yes, for the 200th episode, it had to be a very special one. And it's my old friend Demis Hasabis, who is the... CEO of Deep Mind, the AI research company.

And he, I mean, the guy is just a genius. So I've just spent an hour and a quarter chatting to him. And then my editor will have to, the producer will have to edit it down to 28 minutes. So we're going to be challenging. We covered a lot of stuff. So were you talking about all the work he does at Deep Mind? Or has you got anything exciting new on the horizon? Loads of stuff.

In fact, I mean, he does so much. Also, his life is so interesting that, you know, it's hard to fit everything in. Very often a lot of the guests on life scientific, you know, they will have had the sort of very sort of traditional, you know, I was into science and I went to Oxford or Cambridge and I did blah, blah, and then I got my PhD and then I published these paper. And then you talk about their science. Or sometimes they have, the science is probably not that earth shattering, but they have a remarkable life story journey. with Demis Hesabas, I think it's both because, you know, the guy is, he was a child prodigy.

You know, he was, he learned to play chess at the age of four. He watched his father and uncle play, and so they taught him how to play. After two weeks, he could beat both his father and his uncle. So we realized there's something weird going on here. He became the second ranked player in the world for his age, winning tournaments all over the way reached sort of master level

and then retired at the age of 12 he got all his A levels at the age of 15 or 16 and then before he was too young to go to Cambridge so he went off and joined a computer video game company and wrote a multi-million selling best

best selling game and you know and that's before he even got started on setting up deep mind so you know a really remarkable remarkable chap That's an incredible story. I mean, I can barely play chess now. It's pretty scary, isn't it? I remember my son running me close when he was about 11, 10 or 11 years old.

I think, oh, he's only 10 or 11. He's already as good as I am at chess. But to be beaten by your son when he's only four years old, that's something. So on that note, what have been some of your favourite or most surprising life scientific interviews to date? I think that the surprising ones are the ones where I, you know, there are fields of science that are very far from my own. I'm a theoretical physicist. And so I'm always fascinated to learn about stuff that's very, very different from what I do, you know, whether it's or nithology or neuroscience or sort of environmental science. The surprising ones are the people that I've never heard of myself before.

I mean, a lot of my guests I know already, but people I've never heard of. And then you find out about their work and you think, how have I not known about this person? You know, this is the person who discovered such and such. And, you know, the remarkable untold stories, I'm very often as surprised and fascinated, as I hope the listeners are. You know, it's not so surprising when I talk to, you know, Peter Higgs, you know, about Discover the Higgs bosom. Because, you know, even if I don't know the details of his life until I do the research for the program, I know who he is. I know what the Higgs boson is. And so it's well rehearsed. A lot of scientists who are good communicators, you know, who are in the public eye, you know, the Brian Coxers of this world.

Also, great fun to interview, but we're just mates chatting. So the ones that I really enjoy are the unexpected gems, you know, people who have devoted their lives to something that I suddenly feel the world really needs to know about these people. Well, you've interviewed now 200 experts. I was wondering if you've got another 200 lined up, or if you've got anyone on your wish list, if you'd still like to interview. I've got a lot of people on my wish list.

It's interesting we have, so my series producer, Anna Buckley and I are constantly adding names to the pool of potential guests for the future. Of course, Anna works in the BBC Science Radio Unit, and there are a few dozen producers who work in the science radio unit. And of course, you know, all the other science programs that go out from the units, you know, whether it's in science science with Adam Rutherford, you know, or Infinite Monkey Cage, you know, there's lots of other programs that are made.

So lots of those producers are interviewing scientists all the time, and they share names. You really have to have so and so on. They're brilliant. And so we constantly add names. I keep thinking of more people to add. I often get emails from people. And so very often, if a good idea comes up,

I will bash off an email to Anna and say, add so and so to the list. So we never, and more can I see in the future, us running short on scientists. It's interesting that when it's life science who first got commissioned, I was asked by people in the BBC, well, you know, all very well, but, you know, once you've done Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston, you know, who else is there?

You know, they couldn't think of, you know, a whole list of other scientists. And I found that quite surprising. I said, well, you know, if I was interviewing, I don't know, novelists or musicians or, you know, some other, any other walk of life, you wouldn't ask that question because there's, there are hundreds or thousands that we could call upon. It's the same with science. And I think now people appreciate that with 200 in the bag, there's no reason to think there aren't another 200 more or many more hundreds more, I hope. I keep joking that, you know, I'm going to be sort of doing a Melvin brag.

So Melvin has been in his mid-70s now. He's still going strong with a life scientific. Sorry, within our time. So why should I still be presenting the life scientific 20 or years from now? And I don't think I'll run out of guests. You know, there are still many great and the good that I haven't interviewed. There are new, brilliant young minds coming to the fore now, and new discoveries being made all the time.

But I guess to ask you a question whether I have people on the wish list, I tend to, of course, want to interview people from my own field of physics. and in particular there are a number of scientists probably from the states that I'd like to have on the program. Now, I've interviewed a number of physicists for America, Neil de Gras Tyson, Sean Carroll, you know, there's been half a dozen or so more, and then the great other names in the biologist E.O. Wilson, for example. But I guess, let me think. If I could choose maybe a couple, I'd say Ed Witten, who's the father of string theory and M theory,

or Stephen Weinberg's Nobel Prize winner in physics. They're both sort of heroes of mine who, you know, I think realistically I've got to wait for them to bring a book out. And then when they come over to the UK to publicise their book, we'll have them and have them on the show. Yeah, pounce on them then. Exactly. And we're on the lookout people like that because, you know, our budget doesn't extend to me and my producer going over to the States and going on tour of interviewing these people. We've got to wait for them to come to us. Why do you think it's important that people should care about scientists and their lives?

I think to large extent, why do society still view scientists as, you know, the boffins and the white lab coats and assume they're all of a certain type, you know, you know, you know, the geeky, you know, the stereotype of what a scientist should look like and the way a scientist should behave. And the fact is, firstly, scientists are people. And so they have the same foibles, they have the same weaknesses, they have the, you know, they make the same mistakes in life. They get lucky, they get unlucky. But also science itself is so broad that you cannot put, you know, someone who spends their life on a cliff edge counting birds, you know, nesting in Antarctica is not the same as string theorists working at CERN, you know, or the science is so broad and therefore scientists, their personalities, their training,

the way they think is also very broad. You know, the commonality is that we are curious about the world. And we apply the scientific method, this is a phrase that we often hear, but I mean, it's true, you know, the fact that you know, you have a hypothesis, you try. and test it, you do an experiment or someone else does an experiment that you check your idea against. But we're all curious. We're all asking questions about how the world works. But after that, we diverge. And so I think the wider society is starting to realize, hopefully, certainly those who listen to the life scientific, and I get two point something million listeners every week,

they're starting to realize that actually science is so broad and scientists are so diverse. diverse, and yet they have these incredible amazing stories to tell about how they came to discover what they did and how their science is very often changing the world. And it's inspiring, isn't it? Like you say, it's such a broad subject. And people might say, oh, well, I'm not a theoretical physicist or I'm not clever enough to do that. But you think, well, no, you can. There's so much you can do, you know, you don't have to just go down this one area.

Exactly. I mean, that is such a shame, isn't it, that, you know, people, you know, kids at school, oh, I'm not good at math, I could never be a scientist. I know plenty of scientists are rubbish at math, but they're brilliant at doing their bit of science. You know, there's so much. All you have to be to be a scientist is curious about the world. So to keep asking how and why,

thereafter, you choose what grabs you, what lights your fire, what you feel you have a talent in doing. And there's all sorts of directions that you can take in science. So when you touched on that, you said that science can help people and it's great for the world. But I mean, sometimes when you look at the news and social media at the moment, it does feel like it's quite a pessimistic time. So having met some of those incredible minds and some of the brightest people out there, are you quite optimistic for the future? I am naturally an optimistic, glass-half, sort of guy.

I mean, despite, you know, the current climate of, you know, politics and the rise of populism. and the fact that social media means that you can't tell what to believe and what is true, what is fake. I remain optimistic. I mean, it doesn't mean I'm optimistic about, you know, how the UK economy is going to unfold in the current climate in the coming months and years, or indeed whether I'm optimistic about what, you know, Donald Trump is going to do next. But longer term, I have a faith in here.

humanity that by and large, we will come good in the end. We'll sort things out. Of course, we make mistakes. And of course, the news is always more likely to report on the bad rather than the good. But I still feel that most people are decent. And when it comes to science, yes, science can also be used for good or evil. Science in itself, actually learning about how the world works and putting it to use, is neutral. You know, it's not good or bad. You know, knowledge is always better than ignorance. It's how we put it to use. And of course, there are many examples of how science has been put to evil,

you know, whether it's atom bombs or whatever. But I still think that, you know, despite the pessimism that somehow, sometimes we can feel weird we're sort of drowning in at the moment, I think science is going to help humanity in the long run. You know, talking to Demit Hussabis for the 200th edition of The Life Scientific, you know, he's talking about AI and how AI is going to, he hopes, help humanity solve many of the problems and challenges it faces. And, you know, I agree with him.

I think there are certain issues, whether it's antimicrobial disease, whether it's climate change, you know, whether it's energy supplies, you know, the big problems facing humanity, it may well be that artificial intelligence is going to help us solve those problems, you know, whether it's the science and medicine or whether it's in other areas of wider society. So I'm optimistic that science will come good in the end. And if you look back over the course of history, you know, life now is a lot better than it was 100 years ago or 200 years ago or 300 years ago because science has allowed us to understand the world and in understanding the world we've made our lives more comfortable, you know,

whether it's medicine, whether it's in technology than it's ever been before. And I say, see no reason why that shouldn't continue. So I refuse to to stay pessimistic for long. No, that's best way. Be half full. Exactly. Exactly. So back on the Life Scientific, then what makes the Life Scientific's special compared to some of the other science radio shows and podcasts out there? Well, I mean, of course, what it has in its favour is the prime spot it has on the BBC schedule. When the life scientific started eight years ago, it was actually the brainchild of the then controller of Radio 4 Gwynne Williams, who wanted a regular weekly slot at 9 o'clock in the morning.

So immediately following the Today program, which, around six till nine on radio four. Every other weekday had a recognisable slots, recognisable program that had been going for a long time. It would start the week with Andrew Marr on a Monday. You had midweek on a Wednesday. You had in our time with Melvin Bragg on a Thursday. You had desert island discs on Friday.

Tuesday was the only day without this regular program. And so her idea was to have this half hour program in which a scientist, interviews, chats to other scientists about their lives and their work. And, you know, I was flattered enough to be asked to present it. We didn't know what format it would take, but, you know, gradually it found its footing and it's developed into a real fixture. So as I say, we get over 2 million listeners every week, which is a lot more than, for example, the number that would watch a BBC 4 document,

that I make. In fact, even some of the BBC 2 documentaries now, you know, which have a reach a wider audience, are very lucky to get 2 million viewers. So in that sense, it's different from other science programs and podcasts in that it really does reach a much larger audience. And these are not people, crucially, who say, you know, it's like if you're into science, you will subscribe to a certain podcast. or you'll say, oh, there's a good documentary on BBC 4 about black holes tonight, I want to watch.

So you will deliberately go there to listen to or watch a particular program. With a line scientific, it comes on at the end of the Today program. And so people just have their radios on. So it's not aiming at people who have an interest in science. It's aiming at anyone who has an interest, who's curious and has an interest in the world. And so it's reaching out to people who wouldn't probably normally, be aware of some of these subjects or know about some of these scientists. So in that sense, it is different. And also, I find that the guests on the program, and I have to say that

no one has turned down an invitation to be on the Life Scientific. Oh, fantastic. It's quite, you know, we've had, what, eight or nine Nobel Prize winners, three presidents of the Royal Society. three or four government chief scientific advisors, you know, all the great and the good, as well as the unexpected gems that I was saying earlier, the people that people haven't heard of. They've all wanted to be on the program. And what's nice is that because they're talking to me and they see me as a,

you know, I am another scientist, they feel at ease. They're not being interviewed by an investigative journalist, you know, or someone who doesn't understand. the science, they know that I get what they're doing and they open up. And I find, you know, the success in interviewing someone is for them at the end of the recording to say, oh, that time flew by or I can't remember what I said because, you know, you've got me to open up and say lots of things I didn't think I was going to talk about. So putting the guest at ease, part of it is because they know I'm a fellow scientist and I'm genuinely.

And I am genuinely interested in their work. So for those reasons, I think it sort of stands out as a way of getting science across to wider society, albeit I have to admit radio four listeners, and the demographic is maybe slanted slightly towards older than younger listeners. That's the nature of radio four. but it's still reaching people who wouldn't normally be aware of some of these scientific achievements and the people that do them. Because public engagement in science is really important to you, isn't it? Because you already hold a chair in that.

Do you think science in general has a bit of a problem with engaging the public? Or do you think it's getting better? It's opening up a lot better? Or can you think of ways we can fix it if there are any issues? Well, I mean, of course there are still issues. But I mean, we've come a tremendous way in the last couple of decades since I first started communicating science probably about 25 years ago seriously. You know, I followed a very traditional academic route. I'd never planned to communicate science.

And I always say when people now come to me, you know, young, you know, my students or young researchers saying, how did you get into science communication? and how do I go about getting into that as well? I say, well, first you have to decide whether you want to be a science communicator, which is an absolutely, you know, fantastic career option to do, to go down. Or you can carry on being a scientist who communicates. And so I don't regard myself as a science community.

I'm not a professional science communicator. I'm a scientist who communicates. And that distinction didn't exist. A scientist who communicates wasn't really taken seriously when I first started out in the mid-90s. You know, I did a, after my PhD, I did postdocs, and then I became a lecturer, and then I got research fellowship, and I was writing papers and going to conferences and getting research grants. And every now and again, I would do your school talk or do a quick interview with a journalist and realized I enjoyed explaining what I do to someone, to a non-scientist, and that

seeing them inspired or infused or excited as much as I enjoyed discovering the science myself in my research. And so what I wanted to do is both. And I talked to senior colleagues and I said, look, why can't I be a research academic, still doing my research, still teaching undergraduate students at university, but at the same time, you know, doing science communication? And it wasn't a thing and what has changed, I think, dramatically, particularly in the UK, more so than any other country in the world, is that that has become now acceptable. And you look around, there are a number of scientists who are still actively doing their science, but who also do tremendous communication work. And universities in particular are very encouraging of that.

A lot of universities now have chairs in public engagement in science as a respectable academic post to hold. So I think that has changed tremendously in the UK. And we are very much moving in the right direction. You know, there are still issues. We worry about, you know, the fake views and the people who have had enough of experts, you know, the usual scientists in their ivory towers. and what do they know about the real world. You're always going to get those sorts of concerns.

But I think by and large, science communication is in a very healthy position in this country. Science communication is maybe seen as quite a creative thing to do. But a lot of people think that science can't be creative. It's very sort of like it's a scientific discipline. There can't be creativity there. But that's not true, is it? Because there's so much creativity in science and communication with people in different ways. Yeah, I mean, that's just one of the things that, that is very important.

one of my bug bears, really, that people talk about, you know, when people talk about STEM subjects, you know, science, technology, engineering, maths. Is it math? Yes, that's the emphasis. And then they say, well, you know, we could have been in the creativity, so you've got to bring in the art, so you change STEM to STEAM. And that, I mean, I find sort of deep down that, that that actually annoys me. Not that I don't think art is important. And, you know, we can't have everyone just doing STEM subjects, you know, the humanities are vitally important to make us rounded human beings. We need to understand history. We need to understand art and music and the social sciences. But art itself, of course, is creative. The idea that creativity comes from the

arts and that science is about regurgitating or learning facts about the world is completely wrong. Learning facts about the world, well, for me, that's no different from history and learning sort of kings and queens and dates. History isn't about learning the names of or the kings and queens of England or the dates of all the important battles. History is about interpreting the past. And in the same way, science is creative. Science is about looking at nature in different ways, understanding how nature works, understanding how the world works. And without create, even in the hardest of sciences, in something like mathematics, there's an incredible amount of creativity that goes into it.

So, yeah, creativity is something that I hope, and it's sort of the sort of thing that I sort of quite often bang on about and the life scientific, you know, that any of my guests, as soon as we sort of stray into the subject of creativity, we get onto this hobby horse of how creativity and science is just as important as it is in the arts. In your physics work at the moment,

is there anything in particular you're working on or is there anything new that's coming up? Well, I'm actually very busy, actually, with my university side of things because we recently, over a year ago, got a big research grant at Surrey University where I work to work in this new area of interdisciplinary science I'm interested in called quantum biology. And so I now supervise five, soon to be six PhD students, all working. Essentially, they're working on theory. physical physics. They're basically doing quantum mechanics, but with potential applications in molecular biology. And so they're keeping me very busy. They're keeping me in my toes. I'm having to meet all my students every week. And they're doing very exciting stuff. And it's giving me a new lease of life because for a while I wasn't, you know, my research really

went to a bit on the backburn. I was doing a lot of TV, a lot of broadcasting work, a lot of writing. now I'm back doing a lot of research, reading research papers, publishing papers, applying for research grants, and it's exciting. It's got me, the mind is fizzing and bubbling again, and I've realized push comes to shove. If I had to choose one thing, I would revert back to being a research physicist, you know, only. Of all the things that I do, that is really my natural home. I'd be sad to give up the life scientific. I'd be sad to give up the public. science work that I do, but ultimately it's doing my own research that I think I find the most inspiring. That was Jim Al Khalili, who presents the Life Scientific every Tuesday morning on BBC

Radio 4. You can catch up with previous episodes online, or you can look out for his two books, The Life Scientific, Explorers and the Life Scientific Inventors. Jim's new book, The World According to Physics, will be published next year. If you want your life to be a little more scientific, issue of BBC Science Focus is packed full of features, news and interviews to help you make sense of the world around you. In the November 29 issue, we look at the inspiring projects that could save our seas, find out what would happen if we all quit fast fashion, try to solve the mysteries of sleep, and ask whether peaceful protests can inspire meaningful change. Thank you for listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team.

We're the UK's best-selling sites and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at sciencefocus.com or look out for us in your app store. This podcast is sponsored by Name, Audio and Focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analog warmth. Alongside French acoustic specialist Focal, Name creates high-end audio systems, combining innovation with craftsmanship, so you can listen to me. music, just as the artist intended. Discover more at name audio.com. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building.

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