Instant Genius - Simple ways to overcome imposter syndrome

Episode Date: July 23, 2023

Do you ever feel like a fraud in your everyday life, and everyone’s about to find out you don’t really belong? If so, you’ve likely experience imposter syndrome – a pattern of self-doubt that persists despite all your accomplishments. Why is it these feelings emerge? And can a person actually be cured of imposter syndrome? To answer these questions and much more, we’re joined by Dr Jessamy Hibberd, Clinical Psychologist and author of book The Imposter Cure: How to stop feeling like a fraud and escape the mind-trap of imposter syndrome. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And welcome to Instant Genius, the bite-sized masterclass in podcast form. I'm Thomas Ling, digital editor at BBC Science Focus magazine. Do you ever feel like a fraud in your everyday life? And everyone's about to find out, you don't really belong. If so, you've likely experienced imposter syndrome, those feelings of self-doubt and incompetence that persist despite all your accomplishments. Why is it that these feelings emerge? And can a person actually be cured of imposter syndrome? To answer these questions and much more, I'm joined by Dr. Jessamy Hibbard, clinical psychologist and co-author of the book The Imposter cure, how to stop feeling like a fraud and escape the mind trap of imposter syndrome.

Hello, Dr. Jessamy. Welcome to the show. Hello, thanks for having me. Fantastic. So I'm going to start up with the big question, which is obviously what is imposter syndrome? Well, it's a phenomenon that was first described way back in 1978 by two clinical psychologists, Hans and Imis. And when they first discovered it, they thought it was something that just affected women. And they described it as a phenomenon in which people believe that they're not worthy of their success and have a persistent belief in their lack of skills and competence despite evidence to the contrary. But the way I came to think about it was that actually this is a faulty belief. So whenever you're doing something difficult or that pushes you out of your comfort zone, it's natural to experience some discomfort.

And that discomfort is just saying, you know, I'm not sure what I'm doing. I'm feeling a bit uncertain about this and also that you wanted to go well. The trouble is that impostors misinterpret that discomfort and they believe it's a sign that they're not up to the task or not ready for this in some way and that they might be discovered as a fraud and they falsely believe that people who are confident don't feel like this, whereas actually this is something we all experience. It's just part of being human. So what's the difference between a quote-unquote sort of normal person and and someone who has imposter syndrome? Well, I guess in some ways there's no such thing as normal.

You know, we all have insecurities. We all have fears underneath the surface. We don't have it all together. But for an imposter, they've got this belief that other people do have it all together and that they know what they're doing and that they don't experience discomfort. Whereas anything that you want to do well at or that is new or difficult, it is hard at the beginning. That's why you experience discomfort.

We all get that. The only difference is how you're in. interpret it. Is there a certain way of diagnosing someone with imposter syndrome? I think it's one of these terms that are banded around quite a bit, but is there a more clinical definition of it? I suppose the trouble with imposter syndrome is that you think you're an imposter. So you believe that there's this thing called imposter syndrome, but that's not what you've got. You actually are an imposter. And so that's what makes it difficult to talk about. That's what makes it difficult to kind of overcome for lots of people. But when you think about kind of

common signs or symptoms that I'd see and people say I was working with, then it's a fear of being found out as not as clever or competent as other people believe. People who experience imposter syndrome find it really hard to take on board their success and they kind of see it as down to luck or other external circumstances. They might even believe they don't deserve their success and they find it hard to accept compliments and their achievements. And they're also likely to compare themselves to other people and see them as having it more together than they are. But I think the big thing with imposter syndrome is you don't think that you've got imposter syndrome. You're the actual one that it really applies to. You are the imposter.

Exactly. So you mentioned a few sort of signs and symptoms there. Is there anything else that hasn't been covered? I suppose that it plays out in lots of different ways. And one of the biggest problems is this kind of shame and secrecy that surrounds it. And in a way, the behaviours then that feed into feeling like you're an imposter actually keep it in play. So, for example, you might work much harder or you might avoid doing things because of a fear of getting it wrong and then be seen as not doing very well. So in the book, I talk about the mind trap of imposter syndrome because actually it's very difficult to unwind it and because you don't say, look, I'm worried I'm not doing well enough in my job. Your boss doesn't have a chance to say, no, you're a great part of the

team. And instead you do these kind of work behind the scenes or try and perfect everything you're doing or have this fear of failure. And I guess the other part of it is how that insecurity and self-doubt fuels it. So there's a fairly strong link between overworking and imposter syndrome? Yeah, there's a big link between overwork and imposter syndrome and it's also linked to perfectionism. So you're more likely to experience it if you're also a perfectionist. But we also know it links back to family environment that it can be more common if you feel different to the core group in some way. So that idea you've got to see it to be it. If you're in a workplace and there's not other people like you,

you're more likely to experience it. But it also comes up if you're doing something that you didn't expect you would do or other people didn't expect of you. So it's almost like in part having this image of yourself as not being the person that you really are, a disconnect between the two. So can you have imposter syndrome and not really know that you have it? Yeah, I think that's the funny thing.

With the talks that I do and even having written the book, lots of letters have been to say, I'm so glad I've got a name for what's going on for me. And when you're doing all of these things in isolation, it's just how you're functioning to get through the day. And particularly when you think about imposter syndrome, for some people it comes with kind of extreme anxiety and it's really difficult to enjoy their day to day

or to look up if they're constantly in these cycles of overwork, or avoidance. And so it's difficult to see it for what it is. So yeah, I think some people really don't realize they've got it. Is there a strong link between avoidance and imposter syndrome? Yeah, there is. And I call it the kind of the imposter syndrome twins, because you're either pushed into this overwork that we've described and kind of more perfectionistic tendencies or the other way to avoidance. And that could be avoidance of, you know, going for a promotion or putting yourself out there where you feel like you might have more chance of being exposed.

But it could be also avoidance in other ways, like drinking more to kind of manage the feelings when you're outside work or being late for things or saying to yourself, well, you know, I'm going to put it off because actually I'm not going to be good at it anyway and almost that idea that you'd rather fail and not try than to try and then fail. You mentioned some there,

but what are some other common triggers for imposter syndrome? So it depends on how you experience imposter syndrome and there are different imposter types. And Dr. Valerie Young, an expert on imposter syndrome, looked into this. And she found that imposter's experience this and get triggered in different ways because they experience failure-related shame in different ways. And she identified five different types. So the first is the perfectionist and they're more likely to experience it if they feel like things aren't perfect and that they have. haven't done well enough. And because of that, it's hard for them to enjoy success because it's very rare that we do things perfectly and it all goes to plan. That can also come out on other people.

You know, that idea if you want a job doing, you should do it yourself. So they tend to have high standards for themselves, but also for others. The next type is the natural genius. And so the natural genius is somebody who feels that you should have inherent ability. So when they're trying something for the first time, if they're not good at it straight away or if they don't find it easy, then they feel like they must be a fraud and they're not up to the task. And their problem is that they don't give themselves time to learn. And for that group, they're often people who say, we're really good at school and everything came easily to them. And they were always top of the class. So they haven't had that same experience of perseverance

and struggle and seeing that when you work hard at something, you can still be good at it. And so for them, it comes up when they feel like, you know, they haven't got it straight away. you also get the soloist and their trigger is that they feel like success only counts if they've done it on their own. So if you're a project manager and you've worked on a project with your team, they don't accept that as their success. They say, you know, it's the team. It wasn't me. That group will find it really difficult to seek help. So if they have to go up someone and say, I'm struggling with this, what do you think? Again, that triggers imposter syndrome for them. You also have the expert, which is another really common type and that's somebody who feels like they need to know it all before they even begin.

So it's a bit like the natural genius, but they're the type of person who would have done three university courses and before going into something feels like they've got to have read up on it and known it inside out rather than that you just need to know enough to get started and that you can fill in the gaps. And then the last type is called the superwoman or Superman. And they feel like competence is defined on not just, you know, what you can do perfectly, but how many things you can do well at. And so they're often juggling multiple roles, whether it's at work as a partner, a parent, a volunteer,

you know, you name it, they need to be the best at it. They often live these over-extended lives. And for them not being productive or not having kind of external feedback can be a trigger to feeling like an imposter, but they're also more likely to experience things like burnout because they're constantly pushing themselves so hard. You listed like lots of different types there, and I think they would apply to,

a lot of people. Do you know the sort of the ratio of people that have imposter syndrome? Does more or less everyone suffer from it to an extent? Well, the research suggests that about 70% of people will experience imposter syndrome. And that was, it was written up in the journal of behavioral science. And in terms of gender, you know, actually what we know is it doesn't discriminate. And a study in 2019 found that about 50% of men have experienced imposter related thoughts in the last year. and just over two-thirds of women. And they have also found that, you know, it can affect anybody from new starters or students

all the way up to CEOs. So it can affect you also at work, but in your relationships, you know, in your kind of confidence of the parent, it can be really pervasive. And for some people it affects, you know, like we said, there's certain triggers and it affects them in certain parts of their life.

So, for example, when I first started doing talks, as a clinical psychologist who's used to working one-to-one in a talk I'd really feel like an imposter standing up in front of people, so stepping out my comfort zone. But for some people, it's a pervasive feeling that's around a lot of the time. And what was interesting about the 2019 study is that they found that the people kind of surveyed

didn't just experience those imposter feelings at work. It spilled over into their own life, so it had a detrimental effect on their homeland because of the energy and effort and fear of these thoughts. It's built from work to home as well. So it's quite a big question, but what causes imposter syndrome? As we already mentioned, there's kind of different things that make you more likely to experience it. So, you know, the family environment, being a perfectionist, not being what you expected of yourself or what other people expected of you and this being different to the core group.

But the trouble is once you have that belief, which is kind of generally a fear of not being good enough. You know, we don't just have that belief and it naturally updates. So our brain likes to prove our beliefs right. And that means that the belief biases us and it becomes like a lens through which we see the world. And as a result, impostens have different rules for when they do well and when they do badly as a way to keep that belief in play. And if they do do well, then they attribute it to these external circumstances, you know, like luck or the team or working really hard or being a nice person, whereas if they do badly, they see it as a personal failing. And I sometimes think about it as a children's shape, sorter.

You know, any positive information has to be the right shape, the right size, at the right angle to go through. Whereas for negative information, it's like it's all collected in this great big bucket. And so instead of having a kind of belief that you can prove or disprove, it's this belief that you're invested in proving right and you continue to collect information to support it. So what really keeps that belief in place then? How you attend to information is biased. So you're only collecting information that sorts your view, that supports your view.

And I think there's two ways to think about that. One is, you know, if you think about, say, you support a football team, how you view your team to any other team is totally different because you have a belief in your team being the best. And so you see all the good things your team does and all the awful things the other teams do. And you see it really differently. on the other side of it is this natural threat bias that we've evolved to have, which was part of survival of the fittest.

So when it came to threat, it was better to be safe and sorry. So our response to any threatening information is far, far quicker than how we take on board the positive things. And again, to think of an example, if you think about something you've done that's gone really well, you know, how long you give to that and how much you run it over in your head and how much you're in the feeling. and then you compare that to when something doesn't go well or you felt like you failed in some way and how much time we spend thinking about those things and going over them and replaying them in our heads.

And essentially that kind of means that we remain disconnected from all the good stuff we're doing. So although we might have been in our job for several years, been promoted, had success, we don't take on board any of that information. So we're still seeing ourselves as that person who just started out. And the only information we've taken on board during

that time is the stuff we haven't done so well at. And whilst you might have some acknowledgement of the good stuff, often it's relief. It's like, you've touched on, wow, and you're suddenly onto the next thing. And so our goalposts move, we think, okay, when I've done that project, I know I'll be doing well, but you do that project, you don't feel differently, and suddenly it's the next thing and the next thing. And you never update your view of yourself to be kind of where you are now and what you're truly capable of. Santa Monica College is the number one transfer college to the UCs for 35 straight years. With caring faculty, dedicated counselors and affordable tuition, SMC helps you reach top universities with confidence. Summer classes start June 22nd. Learn more at

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Try it for yourself at a focal powered by name boutique. Visit focal powered by name.com for more information. I hear that kind of leads me on quite nicely to what people I think really want to know about, which is how to overcome imposter syndrome. So what are the key strategies that somebody can adopt to overcome imposter syndrome? So in the book I outline lots of different strategies, but I'd say the key ones to start with are updating this belief. And so just like you've highlighted that belief, you're an imposter, that is the problem. And what you want to do is bring into play the reality of your situation and where you are now. So that's not, you know, telling yourself you're great without any basis for it. That's actually taking some time to, you know, something I'd do in the clinic with people is create a CV of all their experience. experience and skills. And so once you start to have this new view of yourself based on what you've actually done and the full picture of your life, it's like kryptonites, the imposter

syndrome thought. And so I'd get people to write down, you know, their skills in work, any kind of positive feedback, the jobs they've held, the things they do outside of work, positive feedback from friends and family as well, and to kind of really create a filled out, concrete view of all the things that you've done. And I'd get people to start that in the session with me, but also to continue with it over the course of the week, because once you open that door, there's suddenly more information to find. And it's like you start to think about all these different things that can be added to

the CV of achievements and successes. What I get people to do then in the next session is to kind of look through it and read out to me all their experience and skills. And it's something that you can do on your own too. and I asked them to imagine, you know, if that was somebody that you heard about, you know, what might you think of them? Or to turn it around and say, if you knew someone who'd done all these things and was thought of in these ways, you know, how would you view them?

And my favourite one is to think back and think, you know, if I look back up my 16-year-old self, what might I think of where I am now and how might I think I was doing? Because when we move the goalpost, we don't have that kind of point in time where we think, well actually, you know, I'd be so pleased that I'd got to this point and so pleased with how I was doing. So I think the first step is starting to build this CV and then on top of that, starting to pay attention to your day to day differently. So the next step is to write down the good things that are happening and to just make a note of the different things that happen each day, whether it's, you know, something you were pleased with, something you did well with, positive feedback. So you're again looking at this other side to life that you've previously been ignored.

or discrediting. And again, when I get people to read that back, it's amazing how often they say, oh, you know, I'd forgotten about that. Or, oh, yeah, we did that, you know, because our brain's so quick to let go or dismiss those things. And by noticing it in the moment and writing it down and then reading it back, you have far more opportunity to really take these things on board. Do a lot of people, I think, particularly people, were quite strong imposter syndrome, find that quite difficult at first? Is there ever a danger of them sort of going way and almost writing up like a negative CV as well as a positive one. Yeah, it's something that feels really difficult and I sometimes think about it in terms of learning a new language. You know,

this is a way that you've never thought about yourself or spoken about yourself before. And at the beginning, it feels really awkward and clunky and uncomfortable. And it's almost just doing it in spite of that. And that's why, you know, I start people off, you know, particularly if they experience it, as you say, and it's really pervasive and overwhelming, then I do it with them. And so if you're doing it on your own, it can be helpful to get other people involved in terms of starting to see that side of things. And another fear I think that people have is this idea, you know, well, actually isn't that just showing off or aren't I going to get kind of too big for my boots? But I'm not suggesting that, you know, they get the lesson and they broadcast it to everybody they know or have ever met.

It's starting to change your view of yourself and what you know about yourself. So it's up-to-date and a fair of you. And just like you might still continue to kind of want to improve and do better and do your best, it's not changing any of that. It's just saying, okay, if I know my capabilities, if I take time to kind of consider how I'm doing what that means about me, my impact and my role on what happens, then that puts me in a far better position to continue to do what I want to do than just ignoring all these things and putting them to one side. And as an imposter, So you're so far from ever being at that kind of showing off or bloating or being too big headed.

That's just so far away. Moving up the scale a bit just can make a huge difference. I take it there's not really a lot of point in writing down and negative CV as well. To almost get that balance because I guess a lot of people with imposter syndrome are doing the negative CV in their head all the times. You just need to do the positive one for balance. Exactly. And it might sound a bit strange, but I think of it as a painting.

Say the negative stuff. You know, if you think about how much of that is happening in your life as a percentage of time, say it's like 5 or 10 percent where you think that you could do better, then if you thought about painting, if you looked at 5 or 10 percent of a painting, you wouldn't really have a clue what the picture was. And that's what I mean. If you then take on board the other side of your life and the good stuff that's going on, that's the full picture.

That gives you a really idea of where you are and what's happening in your life and how you're doing. and so yeah in terms of that CV it's pushing those thoughts to one side and it's even starting to test them out so for example you know going back to that example for me with doing talks I would get really excited when I was invited to do a talk and I think you know this is great news and then it would come to about a week before and I'd just start to slowly dread it more and more and I think why have I done it you know I don't think this is my strength I should stick to seeing people one to one to one that's what I really love and then I I'd do the talk and I'd really enjoy it and it would be really interesting hearing from people and it was exciting to do something different and challenge myself to do something new. And so rather than just be relieved afterwards, what I started to do was update that prediction.

So the anxious prediction says, you shouldn't do this. It's going to go wrong. Why have you put yourself out there? But then when you've done it, most people are just so relieved there onto the next thing. And instead it's really important to update the prediction and remind yourself, well, actually, that went much better than expected. And there might have been things that didn't go as well as you wanted, but probably you coat with them better than you imagined.

So again, bring the evidence of what happened rather than the fears, which are not evidence-based. And then the next time you go and do it, so the next time I'm doing it of, I still go through that week before of dreading it. But I can say to myself, you felt like this last time, and you were so pleased afterwards.

And actually, it was really interesting to work with those people and hear from them. So you have this new voice that can come in. And the more you do that, the less the time becomes. And the nerves don't go away, but you know that the nerves are normal. That's just part of being human. But that isn't the truth of how it's going to go. And in terms of another strategy, it's not just updating it, but it's starting to externalise that voice and say,

okay, this voice is the voice of my fears. It's not the truth of the situation. And starting to say, you know, when the imposter syndrome voices around that says you can't do this, it's not good enough, you're going to be found out, everybody's doing better than you, you start to say, oh, okay, that voice is not helping me. You know, I don't need to do the things it says like overwork or avoid this altogether. I need to remember that it's a bully and it hasn't got my best interest in mind and that actually facing this or seeking out help or talking to somebody about it is a far better option

because then I have a chance to prove those beliefs wrong and to update those anxious predictions with the truth of what actually happens. Is this a case of literally writing these thought processes down? Yeah. So you can have, you know, a couple of columns and write down what the anxious prediction is, your belief in that, say, out of 10.

And then the next one is, you know, what actually happened. And also writing down, you know, if something did go wrong, was it as bad as you predicted? So it might be that sometimes you do these things and they don't go perfectly. Or you might think,

oh, you know, that was really hard. But it's saying, okay, but you still did it and you coached with it. And I think that's another part of undoing the imposter voice. It's saying, okay, well, sometimes you're going to do things and mistakes will happen. And maybe even failure, but that's just part of learning the right way and something that you can learn from. And it's never as bad as you think. What are some other strategies for dealing with imposter syndrome? And I'm particularly thinking in terms of what do you do if someone is caught up in that question of

what if I am the imposter? I think again it's starting to undo it a bit. And when you've got that thought, you know, I am the imposter, it leads to that secrecy. And it also leads to these unfair comparisons to other people. And so with that, I think it's starting to find someone that you can confide in and speak to, who can give you kind of a fair view of what's going on and support you with what you're experiencing and tell you, you know, I don't think you've got this quite right.

But I think it's also starting to understand other people and seeing that these insecurities and fears you hold, that's just not you. You're not the only one who's feeling that. And I sometimes think of it as like, you know, that idea of the swan. It's gliding along the water and that's what we see of other people. But actually we're all furiously paddling underneath. And when we experience these fears,

we look at other people and think they're fine, but we forget we hear what's going on inside our head, but actually we only see what they're showing us. We have no idea what's going on in their head. And working as a clinical psychologist, I'm really privileged. I get a chance to work with people and they tell me their insecurities and fears.

And actually, I see how similar we are under the surface and that no one's a 10 out of 10, no one has it all together. And when you open up a bit, the other thing you can find is that other people say to you, you know, actually I feel the same sometimes. or, you know, when I did my new job, I really feel they'd find me out, but actually this happened. So you get a chance to see more of other people's internal worlds. And I think the other big part is recognizing that confidence and insecurity are not separate,

but they're actually intertwined. So we start off feeling insecure and we worry we can't do it. But actually then we might go and try it out and do those things, and we feel more confidence. But we don't just stay there, confident forever. the next thing comes along and we swing back round. When we see that they're part of the same process, you know, that discomfort and growth are intertwined, we realise, okay, well, actually I'm not meant to just feel good all the time.

Discomfort's part of life. You know, picking myself out there, challenging myself. That is where a lot of the good stuff lies alongside this, you know, other side that we've talked about, it's no good doing all those things if you don't take them on board. Are there any other practical strategies which you find particularly useful? when tackling imposter syndrome? I think that those are the kind of key ones

in terms of updating the belief, externalising the imposter voice, seeing the impact of insecurity and self-doubt and also the ways that you might explain away success so that you are paying attention to your life in this different way. And I think the other thing is that it does take hard work. You know, as we said before,

that belief is a belief that we are invested in proving right. So it's really making a decision that you don't want to have these fears anymore and actively going against it, which takes effort and hard work. And for lots of people, it's seeing that there's no advantages to imposter syndrome. So it's listing or thinking about all the problems that come with feeling like an imposter, whether it's an inability to enjoy success, whether it's so tired after work that you don't see your friends anymore, you know, whether it's living in fear every day, kind of putting all of those things. things together and seeing that if you take away imposter syndrome, you're not taking away wanting to do well or working hard, you're taking away the fears that come with it. And recognizing that actually you're a conscientious and hardworking person, it's not the imposter syndrome that makes you do that. The imposter syndrome is what's holding you back.

And so for some people, again, that kind of final piece of the puzzle is starting to acknowledge all the problems that come with imposter syndrome and the freedom that you can then have by letting go of it and starting to do things in a different way. Do you think imposter syndrome can be cured or is it just about managing? Yeah, I think it can definitely be cured. And I think that it's again saying it's not that you're never going to feel nervous or that you're never going to have doubts about yourself or how you're doing. It's saying that that is a normal part of life, but that doesn't make you an imposter.

And I think it's so important to separate the two. So, you know, is there anybody who's never going to feel anxious? No, that would be an awful thing. anxiety is an important emotion that kind of gives us information about how we're doing or can focus our attention or whatever it might be. It's not that you get rid of these things, but it's that they don't mean you're an imposter. If there was one thing that somebody could do every day, so one practical thing, what would help them overcome imposter syndrome? So to mention quite a few different techniques, which do you think is really, really important? I think it's writing down

the good things that are happening. I think this belief about being an imposter, but also our natural negative threat focus means that we miss out on all this information about, you know, what's going on in our life or how well we're doing. And it's such a simple practice to just in the morning or at the end of the day, take a moment and write down, even if, you know, I said to people write down three things that went well today. And it totally changes your view of the day, but it's also, like we said, a chance to really sit back, take on board how the day went, and notice a few of the good things that happened. And that collection of things you then read back at the end of each week, and it's a chance to feel that all over again. So what's the most surprising thing to you about imposter syndrome?

I think the most surprising thing I found when researching the book is how imposter syndrome really isn't as simple as just feeling like a fraud or feeling like you're not up to the task or a fear of being found out. It's something that's so much more nuanced than that. You know, it can be perfectionism, fear of failure, avoidance, insecurity and self-doubt. And I think it's how those things are showing up in all of our lives. You know, I didn't particularly think of myself as somebody who had imposter syndrome when I wrote this book, but it was a topic I was really interested in. Yeah, as I wrote every chapter, I could identify things that I did that connected with all the things that impostors do.

And so I think the surprising part is how, actually, what does it mean to be human? Being human means having insecurity and self-doubt. Being human means boring you're not up to the task. It can be, you know, avoiding stuff and feeling that you're not ready for it. And it's how we start to understand ourselves differently and more kindly as a way to see that actually this isn't something that marks us out as different. This is something that is marking us out as similar to other people. just interpreting it in a different way and backing ourselves and having a more compassionate

approach that can make all the difference to feeling like you're capable and not an imposter. That was clinical psychologist Dr. Jessamy Hibbard, author of The Imposter Cure, How to Stop Feeling Like a Fraud and Escape the Mind Trap of Imposter Syndrome. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius, brought to you by the team behind BBC Science Focus magazine, which you can find on sale now in soon. supermarkets and news agents as well as your preferred app store. You can, of course, also find us online at sciencefocus.com. This podcast is sponsored by Name, Audio and Focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name audio believes you can have

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