Instant Genius - The genetic hunt for the Loch Ness Monster - Neil Gemmell

Episode Date: November 7, 2018

Professor Neil Gemmell on his project to survey the genetic diversity of Loch Ness using cutting-edge environmental DNA techniques, and maybe find clues about the Loch Ness Monster. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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alongside French acoustic specialist focal, combine handcrafted tradition with cutting-edge innovation and high-end materials, delivering digital precision with analogue warmth. So you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com to learn more. We might find sequences that look like Atlantic salmon, which we'd expect to find in Loch Ness.

We might find sequences that look like pike, which again we might expect to find. And then of course the question is, is there anything there that is not known to science previously, but might fit, for example, into our understanding of the tree of life around about the place where reptiles sit. If indeed there is a monster,

and if indeed that monster is, as some people have suggested, and ancient pleasiosaur of light creature. You're listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Focus magazine team. We're the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com or look out for us in your app store.

Hello and welcome to the Science Focus podcast. I'm Alice Lipscomb Southwell, the production editor of BBC Focus magazine. For years, rumours have abounded that a mysterious creature is lurking in the murky depths of Loch Ness. The only trouble is, save for a few blurry, unconvincing photographs and videos, no one has ever managed to find even the slightest scrap of evidence it actually exists. Several previous scientific expeditions searching for the beast using sonar beam and satellite technology have all drawn a blank.

But now, a new search launched by geneticist Neil Gemmell promises to be our best hope of tracking down Nessie to date. Gemmell and his team are analysing EDNA or environmental data. DNA, the genetic material, like skin, feathers and excrement, left behind by an organism living in the waters of the lock to search for clues of its inhabitants, much like a forensic scientist does when looking for DNA evidence at a crime scene. Commissioning editor Jason Goodyear speaks to him about how the project got started, how the technique works and what he hopes to find. Okay, so you're heading up a project that's looking for evidence of the Loch Ness

monster using DNA techniques. Now that's quite a statement, so let's start. start at the beginning. How did this idea first come about? It's quite serendipitous really. So we've been using a tool called environmental DNA now for a number of years to look at what species are present in the marine environment around New Zealand. And I was quite struck by how powerful it was to detect even subtle variations between, say, rocky shores and sandy shores and the species that you would expect to find there. You find things like flounder in sandy areas and you find things like cod. and rocky areas and that came through an eDNA signal.

And so I started wondering about other ways we could use it to look for things that were a bit more mysterious. And the Loch this monster struck me as something that was both fun and also potentially quite interesting to the general public. When we talk about environmental DNA, some people are interested, but generally they just sort of shrug their shoulders and go, okay, that's quite interesting. But as soon as we started talking about looking for a monster, the conversation changed quite profoundly.

Yeah, okay. So I think most of our listeners will know, or at least have a decent idea about what DNA is. But you mentioned there this is a specific type of DNA called environmental DNA. So can you tell me a little bit about that, please? Yeah, sure. So environmental DNA is basically the detritus of life. It's the pieces of skin and small hairs from, say, our bodies that we would leave in our passing as we go about our day-to-day existence. And other organisms in the environment do exactly the same thing. So fish swimming through the water is constantly losing pieces of itself, if you like. It could be pee, it could be poo, it could be pieces of skin or flakes of scales or what have you.

And what we're effectively doing with environmental DNA is capturing cellular material, that has been released by other organisms. Sometimes it's the entire organism itself, and we're filtering it out of the water, extracting the DNA from it, and then sequencing that DNA to find out what organisms were present in that water at around about that time. Right, so do you need any special equipment to gather the samples?

Well, obviously, everything needs to be very sterile because we don't want to contaminate our sample with extraneous DNA, whether it be from humans or from other samples. So we need to keep things nice and clean where we can, but basically we need a bucket and we need a syringe and we need some way to filter that water. And when we're capturing material water at depth, then we need special devices to actually collect, say, a litre of water

at a specific depth at a specific time. But that's pretty straightforward. You generally have sort of traps that open and they go through the water and then you send a weight down and that weight closes up that trap and you get a litre of water from say 200 metres down in Loch Neth.

Okay, so once you've got the sample I assume you take it back to the lab and analyse it, what goes on during that process? Yeah, so that's actually quite a laborious process but it's not nearly as glamorous as hanging out on a boat and collecting water samples from the UK's biggest body of fresh water. So in the lab it's hard work,

It's literally cracking open these filters that we've collected at Loch Ness and processing the DNA out of that. And that's literally a process of sort of dissolving it and then purifying it and then resuspending it in a substrate that's going to protect it. And then once we've got the DNAs from those samples, we are then going through a variety of processes. one's PCR to make multiple copies of DNA of specific types, and then the other would be to sequence that using short-read sequencing technologies. That sounds like quite a job. So you mentioned you've got a litre of liquid. How do you separate the different species?

How do you identify the different species within that fairly small sample of water? Oh, right. So that happens after we've got the sequence information. So once we've got the sequence information, what we can do is we can look at the DNA sequence that we've obtained, and then we can relate that back to international databases to see if there are any sequences that are like the ones that we've found. And so, for example, there is a fairly strong DNA signal that helps us identify whether things are, say, a vertebrate or an invertebrate, and then within each class of organisms, whether it be vertebrates or invertebrates, we can generally get down to, if not species level, probably genera or family level.

So there's this hierarchical arrangement of life that we've, I guess, used for many years now to help us understand better the diversity of organisms that live around the planet. And we're using that framework to basically classify each of our DNA sequences. Sure. So it's, I guess, a little bit like forensic DNA that you'd see in a crime scene or something like that. It's actually quite similar in many regards. So obviously with a crime scene sample, what you're trying to do is take the sequence that you've found or the DNA profile that you've found and then match that against a database of potential suspects. And where you get a match, you say, okay, this could be the person that committed the crime. And in our case, what we're doing is we're matching this against the database of all the fishes and insects and birds and other things.

that have been sequenced already. And we're just asking, are any of the DNA sequences were found in Loch Ness like those that have been previously described? And so, for example, we might find sequences that look like Atlantic salmon, which we'd expect to find in Loch Ness. We might find sequences that look like Pike, which again, we might expect to find in Loch Ness. And then, of course, the question is,

is there anything there that is not known to science previously, but might fit, for example, into our understanding of the tree of life around about the place where reptiles sit. If indeed there is a monster, and if indeed that monster is, as some people have suggested, an ancient pleasius or light creature. So what were the conditions like how,

and I know Scotland isn't exactly famous for its great weather, what was it like gathering the samples? It was actually, I have to say, I had some trepidation about going into the field because we had a two-week window and I thought, okay, I wonder if the weather plays nicely this will go very well, but if it doesn't, it could be terrible. And as it turned out, we had this period of about a month in Northern Scotland

where the weather was extraordinarily good. Maybe it was even longer than that. But for the two weeks we were there, it was fantastic. The winds were gentle, so the wave action on the lock was low. The sun shone more often than not, and the temperatures were quite mild. So I don't want to make it sound like we had a jolly, we did and it was quite hard work, but it was made more pleasant by the fact that the weather was fantastic, yeah. So you mentioned earlier about going down to different depths and so on and

taking them from different environments. What kind of samples did you take from the lock? So we took about a litre of water at a time from lots of different parts of the lock. So we took over 250 sapons in the end. And these included samples that were taking. taken at the surface of the lock or near the shoreline. And we also took a slightly lower number of samples at significant depths around the lock, basically running a transect, so a straight line, north and south through Loch Ness,

from, say, Fort Augustus all the way up to Inverness. And we collected samples at, say, mostly around 50, 100, 200 meters depth. And one of the reasons we were interested in doing that to understand what was living or what life is present at depth in Loch Ness, because it's the second deepest freshwater body in the UK. And nobody had ever looked at EDNA signals at such depth. We weren't sure what species we might find there.

There was some suggestion that we might find from new bacterial species because Loch Ness gets very dark very quickly because of all the micro-colloids in the water. the peat tannins, effectively act like a polarising filter, just like in your sunglasses, is blocking out the light. So within a few metres going down into Loch Ness, it gets pitch black. So we thought what we would find there is chemically driven ecology and new bacterial species. And I can't say whether we're just analysing those data now, so I don't know too much about

exactly what we've found. But that was the premise behind looking at those various steps was to see how long. was stratified in Loch Ness and what species we might find. So what are your chances of finding the Loch Ness month for then? I don't know, to be honest. I mean, I'm sceptical. There is such a thing. I mean, you can only find what you find.

And, of course, if we don't find anything, well, there's plenty of explanations why we might not. We weren't there at the right time. We didn't sample the right piece of water. We haven't looked for the right sorts of creatures or nessie as a mythical beast anyway. so why would we expect it to have DNA? But what we do know is that using the approach that we've taken, we will get a very, very good survey of the biodiversity of Loch Ness in 2018. We'll be able to describe the fish and other species that are present in Loch Ness,

and I think that's going to be really useful information. And so from the get-go, my view was this is a bit of fun in that we can bring people on an adventure, what are we going to find? Is there a monster? We don't know. But on the other hand, there was always this fundamental science behind it, which is what is present in Loch Ness and how will that help us with the future management of the lock? And that's, to me, from a scientific point of view, a good question to ask.

It fits into a lot of different frameworks around how people are trying to manage lake systems globally. and of course there's the added advantage that in this case we might find a monster. Yeah, so you mentioned the Playasaur that some people say that it might be. But there's some more sort of plausible explanations that have been put forward. Like perhaps it could be a sturgeon or a large eel. Do you think that that's got any credibility to it? Yeah, so I think there might be some credibility around the idea that there might be large fish that are present within Loch Ness.

One possibility is that's been put forward by Adrian Schein as this giant sturgeon. That would be probably an infrequent visitor to Loch Ness and whether or not we detect the presence of such a creature in our samples we don't know. Another idea that's been put forward was a giant catfish, Wells Catfish, which were introduced from Europe around Victorian times. It is reported. So those can grow to 12, 16 feet in length. So that might be an explanation.

We can test that. Giant eels are harder. You know, what if we find eel DNA in Lochness, which, you know, chances are we will, how do you know it's giant? You know, it might just be an ordinary eel. So I guess we would be looking for an eel-like DNA sequence that's a little bit different from the common Europeanial that we already know of. So again, we can look and test that idea.

What we will probably not be able to do is, you know, if we don't find anything, then obviously can't prove a negative. And if we find something that could be an explanation, that will require further work. You know, for example, we find sequences that look like in new eel species. Well, I think that would be really interesting. But, you know, it would take a lot more work and effort to figure out whether it might be a giant eel, as has been suggested by some of the Loch Ness community.

I mean, do you think there's any chance of finding a new species that's unique to Loch Ness that's perhaps slightly less glamorous than the monster, but still an interesting find nonetheless? Oh, I think there's a very good chance that we'll find DNA sequences of species as you. yet undescribed, particularly for microorganisms, bacteria, that sort of thing. So it might not be particularly glamorous, but I would be relatively confident that somewhere in our DNA sequence data lies evidence of a species as yet undescribed to science. Great. So it's my understanding anyway that this kind of survey, this e-DNA technique, is relatively new. But if there been any sort of preview,

success stories using this technique before? Yeah, so I think that's what gave us encouragement to try it in the first instance. So there's been quite a lot of work now, certainly in freshwater environments, looking at invasive species, which is another aspect of what we're trying to do. So in Europe and in Australia and other places, it's being used as a early detection system of invasive freshwater species. So in the highlands, for example, pink salmon, which is a Pacific, salmon species looks to be self-introducing itself.

It was seen spawning in the Ness River in 2017. That could have some effects on local salmon stock. So maybe if we see evidence of pink salmon, we'll get some idea of how it's distributed in Loch Ness and how well-established it is. So that could be useful and important. And also, this technique is used a lot to monitor large, hard to see organisms like whales.

So one of the first uses was to look at whale abundances and distributions in the Baltic Sea. And that was probably published about three or four years ago now. There's been further work on whale sharks and sharks and other large species, again, which can be hard to detect and see using traditional approaches, but EDNA seems to be a very, very powerful way to monitor those species in the natural environment, not invasively.

Great. So would you say like doing this, sort of thing. It's kind of like a, I don't know, like a health check or something for the lock. You can see what's going on beneath the surface. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. So we'll have a snapshot in time from June 2018 that tells us what species diversity is present in lockness at that time. And I think going forward, that would be an important baseline from which further investigations can be made. So how does it change seasonally and how is it changing over years.

What might happen if there has been a significant chemical spill? What would that do to the biodiversity in a particular area? Or what would happen if we increase protection of particular waterways around locked nests?

What would we see in terms of biodiversity signal that suggests that there has been an improvement from those management practices? So in many ways I see this as a very powerful monitoring tool that gives us information over time about how our actions affect our environment. So you have plans to come back to Loch Ness in the future?

I'd be back there at a drop of a hat. It was a wonderful place to visit, and the colleagues that I've made through this project are fantastic. So when can we expect to start hearing some results? So a lot of that depends a little on production. and whether we actually get a full documentary out of this. So we're still talking about that. We would expect to have the science by early next year,

and if everything goes to plan, then I guess if we don't have a production deal, then everyone will hear about it relatively soon after that. And if we do, then it might take a few months before we have something in the can, and obviously the documentary would screen before. what we would make a public announcement about the results. Great. Well, yeah, I'll definitely be looking out for that then. Thanks very much for taking the time to speak to us, and good luck with the project. No, thanks very much. It's been lovely talking with you.

That was Neil Gemmel talking about environmental DNA and the search for the Loch Ness Monster. Thank you for listening to the Science Focus podcast. In our December issue, which is on sale now, we take a look at the Mars Insight mission, which will soon be arriving at the Red Planet. it'll be drilling deep beneath its soil to find out its secrets. We also investigate the Gateway Space Station, which is currently under development. And of course, there's much, much more inside. Thank you for listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Focus magazine team.

We're the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com. We'll look out for us in your app store. sponsored by Name Audio and Focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analog warmth.

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