Instant Genius - The strange science of near-death experiences

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

What happens after we die is one of the biggest questions we ask. Over centuries it’s been asked not only by scientists, but by philosophers, theologists and laymen alike. But how on Earth do we go about studying it? Could near-death experiences provide us with an answer? In this episode we catch up with Dr Neil Dagnall, a cognitive and parapsychological researcher based at Manchester Metropolitan University. He tells us all about the long and storied history of near-death experiences, the wide-ranging nature of their content and what we know about what is occurring in our brains when we are having one. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com. to learn more. Hello and welcome to Instant Genius, a bite-sized masterclass in podcast form. I'm Jason Goodyear, commissioning editor at BBC Science Focus magazine. What happens after we die is one of the biggest questions,

asked not only by scientists, but by philosophers, theologists and laymen alike. But how on earth do we go about studying it? Could near-death experiences provide us with an answer? In this episode, we catch up with Dr. Neil Dagnall, a cognitive and parapsychological researcher based at Manchester Metropolitan University. He tells us all about the long and storied history of near-death experiences,

the wide-ranging nature of their content, and what we know about what is occurring in our brains when we're having one. So first off, we're talking about near-death experiences. This is a fascinating topic. So let's sort of rewind a little bit and see, what's your background and how did you get into this field? Thank you. Well, my background is in learning and teaching initially, because many years ago I inherited a parapsychology course.

It was one of the few that was organized in a university, and there were some colleagues teaching on it. And I'd always had an interest in the subject. Over time, the course team left, and there was the opportunity to join. And then the key member of the team left and retired. And near-death experiences was one of the major topics that we covered on the syllabus. So that together with other areas allied to parapsychology and anomalous psychology. An anomalous psychology is psychological explanations for why people have unusual experiences. Whereas parapsychology assumes that these things exist because they're beyond science.

So we've sat somewhere in the middle between parapsychology and being sympathetic to the possibility that paranormal forces exist, but at the same time being psychologists who try and look at these things from a psychological perspective at the same time. So let's have a broad overview then. So when we're talking about a near-death experience, what are we talking about? Is there a sort of gold standard definition? So in terms of definition, near-death experiences refers to profound psychological events that people experience in times of trauma, and they're often associated with transcendental and mystical elements. And people often have them in situations when they're close to death, hence the name near-death experience. So they're commonly found in people who have medical traumas. They're resuscitated, for example,

on the operating table. So those sorts of traumatic physical incidents are often associated with near-death experiences. So how common are they? It depends on the statistics that you look at. Some of the researchers claim that they're relatively common. But in terms of incidents, it's hard to put an exact figure on them because they're a very specialist population. If you ask people, whether they've had near-death experiences, only people who have had them can come forward to report them. So you end up with skewed statistics. I mean, commonly, some surveys have placed them as low as 5% of the US population, but they're quite dated. So the figures do vary across the literature. So do they have any common characteristics? I know people often talk about

the light at the end of the tunnel experience. do. And again, there's differences in terms of what the various researchers see. But for example, Moody, there was a researcher in the area, identified a number of recurring elements. So, you know, one of the elements was that it was difficult for people to define what had happened to them. So the experience was difficult to put into words. They also often recount hearing news of their own death, but despite that, they feel calm. There's also, oddly, in reports, a noise that people have, an unpleasant buzzing sensation accompanied by rushing. Some of the more common things that people report are things like a dark tunnel, this sensation of being

pulled through this tunnel. And of course, another key often reported element, although it isn't necessary, although people often associate near-death experiences with this, is out-of-body experience so that they feel some sort of psychic, spiritual part of them being removed from their physical body so that they lift up and can look down and can explore the room in which their body is. So, for example, they look down on the medical professionals trying to resuscitate them. So out-of-body experience is a key thing. And then as part of the experience, they may talk about meeting others. And often these others are people who have passed on, who died earlier.

Another common thing that's associated with near-death experiences, of course, is moving towards the light. The fact that as they go through this dark tunnel at the end of it, there's a light and they move towards it. The experience is also associated with a sort of panoramic view of their life so that they get an overview of what's gone, a review. There's a feeling of within the sensation when people talk about it as well, there's often a point at which they feel that they can either go back, they can return or they can move on. So there's a sort of limit and a border to it. obviously people who are still alive after the experience, part of their experience is coming back and then the key sort of social element of is it is talking to others about it. And because of the nature of the experience, because it is this profound transcendental spiritual occurrence,

it can have a profound effect on people's life. So many people talk about it being life affirming, for example. They come back and have a different perspective on life. They're less concerned about the trivial and the mundane, and more concerned with the spiritual and have a greater faith belief in life after death. So they have that change. They value life more.

And they also often look for collaboration. They'll talk to other experiences. So they're the sort of general characteristics, obviously, there are some differences. In some people's cases, they have negative near-death experiences. So the majority of them are very positive, and very often people will meet these deceased relatives and even godlike figures. And the godlike figures will change as a function of culture. So Christians will meet Jesus, whereas people in other religious denominations will meet their sorts of spiritual figures. But in some cases, they have these.

negative experiences. And one that I saw, which was quite interesting, was they were talking about this place that that was like purgatory, where they were being nibbled at and bitten by demons or what they perceived to be demons. So what do we know about what is going on in our brains when we experience a near-death experience? And how do you study that? Really interesting, you know, really interesting question. In terms of what's going on, That depends on your theoretical perspective. So some people would see this as being evidence for life after death if they believe in paranormal forces.

If we were psychologists, for example, then we go for more scientific explanations. That would be the idea, for example, that the things people were experiencing were associated with the brain dying, that as a process of going through this trauma, There's a number of chemicals released in the brain. There's a lack of oxygen. And that's producing these odd cognitions, perceptions, sensations,

and that these are being interpreted in a meaningful way that gives rise to this illusory state that is a near-death experience. So do we know if there are certain illnesses or conditions or events that are more likely to trigger them? Again, it's quite tentative. because different people have put forward different theories. So, for example, types of anaesthetic were proposed to produce certain sorts of hallucinatory experiences.

As with lack of oxygen, lack of oxygen can produce similar sorts of sensations and perceptions. But again, it's difficult to match them on. Also, from a psychological perspective, when people are in such traumatic situations, their brain is effectively shutting down because they're in the process of dying. They can suffer things like depersonalization. This loss of self can result potentially

combined with the emotional elements with the sorts of things that people report in turn, you know, as a near-death experience. It's peak pollination season and my business is skill. fast. To keep the nectar flowing, I need a phone plan with top priority data speed. That's why I chose GoogleFi Wireless. My connections stay strong even when the hive is buzzing. Plus, unlimited plans started $35 a month. Now that's a deal that doesn't stay. Explore Google Fi Wireless plans today.

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name audio creates systems that deliver exceptional sound and unforgettable listening experiences at home. Try it for yourself at a focal powered by name boutique. Visit focal powered by name.com for more information. They're not a new thing, are they? that like they've been reported. I think there's in things like the Tibetan Book of the Dead, people have mentioned these experiences.

So what do we know about that? You know, like the sort of history of this? That's one of the key factors is there's reference to it going back, as you say, many years. But the sort of real body of research when people became interested in it from an academic perspective was in the sorts of, well, around the 19th, mid-1970s,

the 1980s was when people like Moody and then Grace and went on to do research. And these were people with medical backgrounds who noted very often that people who returned from serious medical procedures were reporting these experiences and then tried to quantify them. So obviously you can interview people and you can develop self-report measures to look at the sorts of characteristics that people reporting and at the same time also rate their experiences. So one of the things that's used is a near-death experience questionnaire. But obviously that needs to be triangulated with interviews

and with historical evidence, those sorts of factors. So it's that whole collection and collation and synthesis of information. So what sort of questions do you ask? that question there? Just what type of experiences they had. I mean, because part of looking at the near-death experiences is being able to look at the phenomena that people have and the incidents with which it occurs. Because as I said before, what we end up with if we take these various stages or we take these characteristics is we have an archetypal near-death experience. But obviously, that's quite reductionist

because what people experience at an individual level will be different. It will be unique to them. So people will go through some of the characteristics. They'll go through them in slightly different orders. So what you get from the sort of typical psychological study is you get a sort of general typography, a general set of characteristics,

and you can look at how common they are within experience. experiences and also how impactful they are on the individual. Yeah, so you mentioned there that the content differs slightly. You know, you're saying if somebody's a Christian as opposed to a Hindu, but are certain people more likely to experience them? Do we know anything about that? Again, there is some work that suggests that certain types of personality characteristic or cognitive perceptual states are more likely to be associated with near,

death experiences. You know, so for example, if people are more spiritual, if they're more religious, they're more likely to have those sorts of experiences. Also, other factors like culture, as we've already explored, that's going to influence. So it tends to be whether people are, as I say, the key variable would be things like how prone they are in terms of being able to generate mental imagery and imagination and hallucination proneness, those sorts of variables may provide some indication, but these things happen spontaneously, so it's hard to have really strong predictive models.

Yeah, so sort of coming off that, and then this sort of idea of imagination in the way. So personally, I have really vivid dreams pretty much every night, but how do Needs, death experiences compared to dreams? Do we know anything about that? That's really difficult because again it's the spontaneous nature of the near-death experience that makes it difficult because what you can do then is you can look at people who have had near-death experiences and you could compare them with their rating of dream, you know, how vivid and lucid they find dreams to be. But that is after the fact. And those sorts of correlational studies, they just look at associations, relationships between things,

and you can't really make causal relationships. So, for example, as I said before, scoring high on mysticism, on absorption is another personality factor that's been associated with the experience of near-death experiences. And that's the degree to which people become immersed within experiences in general life. So sort of off the back of that then, you mentioned earlier, anaesthetics. How do these compare to sort of psychedelic drug experiences for DMT or ketamine or something? Well, again, it's just the fact that these, the sorts of things that people are reporting are the sorts of experiences that people may have with ketamine, for example,

because people who take the various substances experience hallucinatory states and they share some common characteristics and interact with the brain centres that are associated with experiences, then that provides again some sort of correlational evidence. So what typically, if you can say such a thing, happens to people after they experience, Do they have a sort of amazing grace moment? Very often that's what's reported. It's seen as being spiritually uplifting, life affirming. They change their views of life generally.

They see it as being much more important, spend less time on trivial, insignificant things, you know, everyday things, a more holistic perspective. So generally people see near-death experiences as being quite positive. So what can we learn from studying them, you know? Could we perhaps, if we learn more about them, be able to sort of utilize them for, I don't know, treatment for things like PTSD or something like that? From a psychological perspective, they provide important insights into the nature of consciousness. And as we know, it's very difficult to quantify consciousness,

because all we can ever do is measure it indirectly. So it adds to the sort of notion of what we are, how we see ourselves. And then not only how we see ourselves, but also it ties in with elements of spirituality, religiosity. So it's that sort of fits in with that dualism of mind-body. It's part of that whole debate about what are we? How are we related to our physical selves and to what degree? are our mental capacities or our spiritual, mental,

psychological capacities separable? So what do you think about future research, you know? Are you optimistic? Obviously, it's so terribly complicated to study. Are you optimistic at some point we'll be able to understand what is going on? I think invariably, as research develops, people will put forward theories and be able to tie brain activity. more closely down to similar sorts of experiences.

The problem you have with near-death experience is their spontaneity and the fact that they occur during these times of trauma when people are often being resuscitated during serious medical procedures. And it's very hard to produce equivalent experiences. You've got ethical, practical difficulties. and the uniqueness of that situation makes it difficult to study it in a systematic, controlled way. So having said that, what are the next things that you'd like to study and like to see figured out? Well, in terms of equivalent research, for example, research on hauntings,

which also taps into the idea of life after death and the idea that people come into contact with beings that have passed on, and can see them that are visualisation within an environment, etc. That sort of research has looked at being able to replicate similar sorts of experiences in safe environments. And clearly looking at the nature of hallucination, proneness to delusions, and the degree to which people report psychological states associated with near-death experiences, that sort of research would be quite interesting and needs

to be furthered. It's a very interesting subject and I think what many of the sub-disciplines of parapsychology and also anomalous psychology struggle from is the fact that we look at these things in isolation. And what we need to do is we need to sort of look at an over-at, model of why people have these extraordinary experiences, because they do have some commonality between them. It's very often difficult to do that because obviously any high-level model becomes very reductionist and may not be sensitive to the specific phenomena under investigation, but certainly there's some nice common elements. So we've tried to, for example, look at the degree to which paranormal experiences generally are positive to people's well-being.

Surprisingly, there isn't a great body of research on that. So near-death experiences have also suffered from being a very narrow area of research. But there's still a very interesting, whilst we may not be able to provide definitive solutions, just looking at the body of literature, is in itself very interesting and worthwhile. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius, brought to you from the team behind BBC Science Focus. That was Dr Neil Dagnall, a cognitive and parapsychological researcher based at Manchester Metropolitan University. The current issue of BBC Science Focus magazine is out now. Pick up a copy wherever you buy your favourite magazines or download us on your

preferred app store. You can also find us online at www.sciencefocus.com. This podcast is sponsored by Name, Audio and Focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analogue warmth. Alongside French acoustic specialist Focal, Name creates high-end audio systems, combining innovation with craftsmanship, so you can listen to music. Just as the artist intended.

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