Instant Genius - The Urban Birder: What wildlife can city-dwellers see?

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

Many of us have found solace in nature over the last few months, relishing our time outdoors, especially when it was limited to one form of exercise a day. A recent report by the RSPB found that people see access to nature as being important for health and wellbeing during and in recovery from the coronavirus crisis. One man who has always been connected to the natural world is David Lindo. Known by most as the Urban Birder, David is a champion for the wellbeing benefits of wildlife, encouraging us all to get outside and see what we can find, be it in the garden, the city, or the countryside. In this week’s episode of the Science Focus Podcast, David tells us about the human benefits of biodiversity, the need for conservation education, and diversity within the birding community. Let us know what you think of the episode with a review or a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts. Subscribe to the Science Focus Podcast on these services: Acast, iTunes, Stitcher, RSS, Overcast Read the full transcription [this will open in a new window] This podcast was supported by brilliant.org, helping people build quantitative skills in maths, science, and computer science with fun and challenging interactive explorations. Listen to more episodes of the Science Focus Podcast: Samantha Alger: What can we do to save the bees? Mark Miodownik: Are biodegradable plastics really better than traditional plastic? Neil Shubin: How do big changes in evolution happen? Mark Lynas: Could leaving nature to its own devices be the key to meeting the UK’s climate goals? Andrew Hunter Murray and Dan Schreiber: Is there really no such thing as a fish? Brad Lister: Are we facing an insect apocalypse? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water.

The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building.

Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Peak pollination season, and my business is scaling fast. To keep the nectar flowing, I need a phone plan with top priority data speeds. That's why I chose GoogleFi Wireless. My connections stay strong even when the hive is buzzing. Plus, unlimited plans started $35 a month. That's a deal that doesn't stay. Explore GoogleFi Wireless plans today.

Plus taxes and government fees. GoogleFi Wireless is not subject to data traffic deprioritization during times of high network usage. This podcast is sponsored by name, audio and focal. Streaming has made music more accessible than ever, but true listening is about more than ease. It's about quality. British audio experts name audio, alongside French acoustic specialist focal, combine handcrafted tradition with cutting-edge innovation. and high-end materials, delivering digital precision with analogue warmth. So you can experience exceptional sound at home.

Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com to learn more. Being a bird that has nothing to do with how many birds you've seen, how many birds you can identify. For me, it's about being able to connect with nature. And whether you know what the names are or not, it doesn't matter. So long as you can pick a pair of an orchids up or even just look at a bird, as far as I'm concerned, you're a burden.

There's no club to join, there's no level to reach, there's no exam to take. And that's the issue, you see. That's the other thing. People feel that I need to be an expert. That's not the case at all. You just need to have your eyes open and your mind open, more importantly. You're listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team. With the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly,

available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com or look out for us in your app store. Hello, I'm Alexander McNamara, online editor at BBC Science Focus. Many of us have found solace in nature over the last few months, relishing our time outdoors, especially when it was limited to one form of exercise a day. A recent report by the RSPB found that people see access to nature as being important for their health and well-being during and in recovery from the coronavirus crisis. One man who has been connected to the natural world is David Lindo.

known by most as the urban birder, David is a champion for the well-being benefits of wildlife, encouraging us all to get outside and see what we can find, be it in the garden, the city or the countryside. In this week's interview, David tells editorial assistant Amy Barrett about the human benefits of biodiversity, the need for conservation, education, and diversity within the birding community. And please let us know what you think of the episode with a review or a comment wherever you listen to your podcasts. Okay, my name is David Lindo. I'm also known as the urban birder, and my whole thing is about trying to get people living in urban areas to connect to their environment, to nature, but through the medium birds. And how did you get into bird watching?

How about getting into birding? That's an interesting question. I've always been interested in nature before I was born. In fact, I often say that in a previous life, I was a puma. and I used to chase after birds and one day I missed one and it flew off and I thought, wow, that looks amazing. So I became a birding pumer which led to my demise because I obviously had to feed.

So I starve to death and I think that just prior to dying I thought this is a very interesting thing I got into here. I wonder if I can explore this in another life and luckily I was born in North West London as a human. And so is it something that you did as a child then? Yeah, but I was, I've been interested in all my life, as I say,

started off at insects. I realised that insects were fed up on by birds, so I was about five when that happened. I taught myself because I didn't have a mentor. I didn't have anyone around me who had any interest. No one had an interest. It came from nowhere, hence the Puma story. So I taught myself, and by the age of eight,

I was a veritable walking in cyclope. on the birds of Britain, Europe, Middle East and North Africa, and a good spattering of the world as well. I didn't meet a birder, another bird until I was 11. And by that point, I was way down the track. And you've turned what is a hobby for most into a full career? Yeah, I got lucky about 14 years ago. I received an email out of the blue from the BBC asking if I want to appear on Springwatch,

talking about my local patch in West London called Wormwood Scrubs. And by that, I'm talking about the park and not the prison. And I agreed to that. And I think it kind of kicked off from there, really. It came very unexpectedly, and I suddenly realized that there was something I could be doing. So it kind of went from there. And is it a case that most burners aren't based in, you know, with cities, it seems like a countryside type of thing to do.

And is that why you probably didn't meet anyone until you were about 11? I think that's a fair enough assumption of certainly initially, but a lot of birders actually do live in cities because 82% of us nearly all live in urban areas in Britain. I think that the urban birding thing has become a lot more popular in the last 20 years. When I started doing it, it was a case of people telling you you can only see birds in in the countryside. But urban birding has been in existence

as long as, you know, humans have thatched rooms and planted parking meters into the ground. You know, people have watched birds all the time. May not necessarily have been called urban birding at the time. But it was something that people did, but it was always seen

as the poor relative. You needed to go out into the middle of nowhere to really go birding. That's not the case at all. and I knew that as a kid and I've been talking about it ever since really. Do you think it has aspects of whether it's the community or the way that it's talked about

that make it inaccessible to some? What, budding? I think that, I mean, that's an interesting question in that, I think that it's, well, there's several things that exclude people from being, involved. One is that people think they need to be an expert to do it. Two, and especially back in the day, people thought you had to be some kind of person to do it, by you know, with a beard in the belly and a bit of a social misfit and, you know, sitting in your bedroom in your mum's house

at the age of 60, you know, that kind of thing. So it had a very kind of fuddy-dud-ish train spotting type of image, I suppose, back in, certainly back in the 60s, 70s. But I think nowadays it's become much more fashionable. I think people realise that there's a lot of stuff to be seen around them in urban areas. I think the major drawbacks now, the major barriers now, I mean,

people often quote the idea, especially when it comes to ethnically diverse people, that it's racism that stop. them from being involved. I don't subscribe to that at all, or at least I don't think that's a main issue, because I think there's other bigger issues in that. And I based that on my experience,

I've been doing this all my life. And I think some of the people I've been sort of purporting that particular opinion haven't really spent much time in the field anyway because I've been in the field since I was a kid, you know, and I've lived through, you know, the 70s and 80s when it was really very racist in the UK. You know, I was as a kid from the age of, you know,

primary school, age five, until nearly leaving secondary school, so maybe 14, was subjected to racial abuse on an almost daily basis. And it got to the point, especially, I mean, I got used to it fairly early on, but it got to the point that it became water for ducks back for me because I just thought myself, why can't you think of something a bit more original to call it? call me as opposed to a blanket name. But I never received any of that kind of treatment when I was out burning.

I never received that from people involved in nature or conservation. They always, I always felt, if it was my sanctuary, I always felt that, you know, I was treated as an equal. So I think one of the main blocks to people being involved in birding is education. I think that, you know, kids are not taught much. about natural history and the environment and conservationists, you know, in primary school upwards. So they grow up in this bubble thinking that, you know, nature is all about being on David Amber programs or in the middle of the countryside away from prime eyes.

So they become, you know, disconnected. And I also think there's cultural issues as well, especially when it comes to some ethnic, effortively diverse people, you know, they have cultural things where I just don't think it's right for, for example, young girls, young Asian girls to be spending the night out in the countryside, you know, whatever. So that's a number issue. Excuse me. And I think a big issue is a way that the media portrays nature. I think even to this day, it's still portrayed as the occupation, the pastime of white middle-class middle-aged men predominantly. And I also feel that

that, you know, I don't feel I can see when I turn on the TV, but half the time it's being presented by a white middle-class, middle-aged male. And I think people, regardless of their color, creed, religion, what have you, I put off by that because I look at that and think, that's not me. So I think that the media have a lot more to be doing to try and to kind of make things a bit more representative. That said, and there's been lots of criticism, leveled at some of the conservation NGOs, for example, for not hiring enough people of colour and for being institutionally racist.

I think that in their defence, even though I do think that some of that does happen, but in their defence, I think that you can't fish from a pool with no fish. And it brings you back to the beginning, which is getting people educated, getting people to think that they could want to be involved in a career in conservation or think that conservation is a worthwhile thing to get involved with or burning or what have you. And I think that, you know, I look at some of the press that supports or, you know, kind of is for the ethnic minorities, i.e., for example, I look at my own group, the, you know, the West Indian and Afro-Africans community,

and they've got a couple of newspapers that serve them. And when I look at those newspapers, all I see is this stereotypical racism being sort of pushed. So in other words, it's like they say, you know, that black kids should be into sports, football, basketball, that should be singing R&B and hip-hop. You know, it's just the classic stereotypes. And there's no reference to you doing anything you want to do, like being an astronaut or anything. or anything else like that. So I think, you know,

I think it's a very multifaceted problem and it's more than just pointing fingers and saying, you're racist, you're racist, and what have you, it's more than that. Because I think there's lots of elements that have to be addressed, and that's why there is such a shortage or such a small number of non-white people

being involved in this. They feel that it's very English or British, and maybe they don't feel British. I mean, for a long stage in my life, I didn't feel British, I didn't feel English at all, only in the last, I'd say, 25 years. And that's because of the constant racism, you know, go back to where you come from

and all that sort of stuff, which I've had all my life until, you know, well, until 25 years ago, or maybe before then. So it kind of, for me, and the other thing it's interesting I find is that, you know, It's also down to your personality because when it comes to exclusion or the potential of exclusion,

you've got to be clear that it is actually is what you think it is. Because racism nowadays is very hard to prove sometimes. Sometimes people may be off with you, but they may be off with everyone. But then you may take it as a racial thing. you know, I might walk into a room and someone else of colour would walk into the room and we'll have two different experiences because, for example, you know,

I've been reading about people who have been going birding non-white people who felt very conscious who felt as if they're victims of micro-aggression as they put it. And I think to myself, you know, if you walk into a hide and you're black or you're not white and you're in the middle of the countryside, you may get people turn the man looking at you,

but that's because I feel because you're different. You're not like who's in the hide at the moment. And then once you say, right, guys, how's it going? What we've seen recently? Five minutes later, you know, everyone's equal. But some people are not that bold. Some people feel very conscious of themselves.

And I don't say anything, and then they kind of feel this pressure. So, you know, I often think about that as well. I mean, obviously, you know, obviously people have to be made welcome, of course. But not every time you have such a sort of situation is it racism. I mean, for example, I'm in Spain right now. I've been in Spain since the beginning of lockdown. And, I mean, I've been in this region, you know, I've been here quite a bit over the last 10 years,

so I know the region quite well. The region is called Extra Maduro, and it's a very rural region. So when you're driving around, you're going through villages and stuff, people stop and look as if they've never seen a car before, even though there's cars in the villages. And that's not because of the fact that you're different colour, what have you, it's because they don't recognise your car, they don't recognise you. And, you know, I have had a couple of racial incidents here, I must say,

but most of the time it's been curiosity stroke, even verging into ignorance in terms of not knowing how to deal with someone who looks different to you. So an example would be I was birding in a rice field area in Spain and I went to a cafe to have a cup of tea and there was a guy, an old boy standing by the bar and he basically was looking at me. So my default situation as someone looks at me is that, hello, how are you doing?

I'd just say hello to them. And nine times out of ten, they're kind of, they're shocked and then they say hello back and in his spine. So he said hello back, and we were speaking in Pigeon Spanish. He asked me where I came from, I said that's from London.

And obviously, he hadn't met many people from London, and he certainly hadn't met an English guy he was black before. But anyway, it was fine. And then his mate walked into the bar and not realising if I can understand what he said. He said, who's that? To the first guy, and the first guy

said, oh, this is a guy from London. The second guy goes, what? A black English person like that. To which I responded in Spanish, yeah, and you're a white Spanish person, what of it? And he became very embarrassed and he left. That's ignorance, you know?

So it's really, this whole subject's really interesting because I think you really need to look at it and not so, you need to actually look at it very carefully and actually analyse it in a very broad sense, not just a case of black and white. Because I've noticed that some NGOs have become so sensitive to the whole subject, but the moment someone mentioned the words,

racist or race, they panic and think they're doing something wrong and they try and appease the person saying whatever they're saying. But they need to think about it a bit more really. So, yeah, my opinion is quite different to other people in this sector. And as a result, I remember I've been asked by a national newspaper to give an interview about my thoughts, especially during the Black Lives Matter stuff. happened, the tragic situation. And because I said what I've just told you, their response is, yeah, but we need an angle. And I said, well, what do you mean? That is my angle. And they wanted me to say, you know, no, you're a racist. You don't want me to point fingers, basically.

So they're the problems, I think, that affect people getting involved. I know it's a long-winded answer, but that's basically how I see it. And all these discussions about what is a microaggression, what is racism, what is ignorance, actually all detract from the main thing, which is just making it accessible to everyone. You know, the discussion should be, like you say, on how we can get it into education and how we can get a wider message out and better representation. Whereas if we're all kind of worrying over whether some particular person or company is racist, it kind of detracts from what their end goal is, don't you think?

Well, totally. I think a lot of people have become very kind of worried, and I've been approached by organisations, individuals. Oh my God, what am I doing wrong? You know, what can I be saying? Who should I be talking to, you know? And I'm just saying, what you should be doing is just being a good person. Simple as that. As a kid, I realized that I was an ambassador.

I was an ambassador for banners. I was an ambassador for black people. And I'm an ambassador for humanity. And they're the three things that I worry. about, you know, and I think that's all you need to think about. People overcomplicate things. And it really annoys me. I mean, I remember recently watching a documentary about the soul music scene.

I was well into soul music back in my time. I still am, but, you know, it was a bit of a disco boy. And it was done by, the actual programme was actually produced by some black people who are into music now. but they described the scene back then as being predominantly white and talked about mostly white socks

Essex boys and I thought hang on a minute were you there because when I was there I saw a whole mix of different people and also we didn't even talk about race race didn't even come into it it's just like we're all together we're having a good time

why do people have to then put their stuff onto it or make it an issue where it's black and white when it wasn't at all in place. So I think that's the situation in a moment. I think people are very, very quick to, to kind of, I don't know, to politicise, to, you know, to make it more than what it is sometimes. And on the subject of identifying as a burden, I mean, I know, especially since, you know, lockdown and having so much more time outdoors where there's less distraction of cars and other people.

I've found myself reading books about bird watching or trying to kind of pay a bit more attention, but I'm still reluctant to call myself a bird. Why? I don't know. It feels like a, I mean, I can't name the birds when I see them. Should I be able to name them all? No. Being a bird that has nothing to do with how many birds you've seen,

how many birds you can identify. You know, for me, it's about being able to connect with nature. And whether you know what the names are or not, it doesn't matter. So long as you can pick a pair of an orchids up, or even just look at a bird, as far as I'm concerned, you're a birder. There's no club to join, there's no level to reach, there's no exam to take. You know, and that's the issue, you see.

That's the other thing. People feel that I need to be an expert. That's not the case at all. You just need to have your eyes open and your mind open, more important. And what's different about urban birding compared to being out in the countryside? Not much difference. I think urban birding, if anything, I mean, my life as an urban bird has made me much more aware because in urban areas, I guess you have to look a bit harder. But some of the birds that do show up are much more used to people, so you seem much better. And plus the habitats

within urban areas are much sparser, which means that, again, you see, you're more likely to see them because they've got less habitat to hiding. Going back to the first point in terms of being more used to people, I mean, the classic example is a wood pigeon. In London, for example, you can walk right up to, in Trafalgar Square and stuff like that. You go in the middle of the countryside, you can't get within half a mile of one because there's a whole different way of life for them there. They get hunted there, for example, whereas in urban areas they're fed by us.

So that's a big issue. That's a big difference. And also, when you think about urban birding, people often sort of think that there's only pigeons and sparrows, even though sparrows have become quite scarce these days. But in reality, there's

been roughly about 620 different species of birds seen in the UK since records began, and these include birds that have been found once versus black birds are as nine or ten million pairs. And off the 620, about 95% have been found in urban areas. And then when you think about London, for example, the bird list,

the species list there is about 350, 360. So, you know, it shows that you can actually find anything anywhere. And that's why I find such a challenge about urban birding because because it was derided in the beginning as being the poor cousin. And even to this day, I mean, I've got, well, my last book, which is how to be an urban bird. I remember doing a book tour. And my publisher approached a couple of sort of bird organizations or bird clubs. And one or two of them said, well, we don't want to have him here because we don't think

it's serious bird watching. you know so you've got people who are kind of quite elitist about it but i think in the main most people understand that you know it has it's just as important as any other thing but for me it's not even about that for me it's about people for me it's about trying to get people to understand that we have an environment that's right outside our front doors the moment you step out your door you look up you it's around a straight or way. And urban birding is a great conduit to get people to realize that conservation starts from your doorstep. So that's why I'm very keen and interested in talking to people who have no

prior knowledge, people like you, Amy, because the end of the day, I see myself as a bridge. You know, you see that door that's marked environment. You walk through it. You get interested in birds. You can cross that bridge and then get involved in conservation. get involved in local stuff, or not at all. But you can be exposed to it. And that's the main thing. And that's all I'm interested in. And that's what I see as urban burning.

It's not about, you know, as I said before, getting as many species as possible or whatever. It's not about that at all. It's about being aware. It's about us connecting. And more importantly, it's about love. I guess I have this image in my head of being a bird and being quite solitary, almost lonely out in the environment.

Yeah, it's a very social thing. You can do it in groups. You know, you can do it on your own. I mean, I think it's a, for me, it's a very grounding experience. And I know we're going to talk about this, but it's also very good for your wellbeing and mental health. It's very, very grounding.

You know, birds don't argue with you. Birds make your heart flutter, no matter where you are. and even if you just do it for half an hour in a morning before going to work or school or having a sandwich on a bench in a park and just trying to blot out the sounds of humanity, the human hubbub and then let the natural sounds filter through and eventually you start tuning into birds singing that people can't hear

because they're stuck in their bubble still. Once you crack your bubble open and you realise that there's a world out of there, you get so much joy from that. And I think, you know, it's like you may have issues or problems. I mean, I've had times in the past where, for example, you've broken up with a girlfriend and you feel a bit kind of down and you go burning. And it just lifts your heart. And then you leave and go back to your life.

But you feel as if there's some kind of solution. You've got some clarity. There's some kind of, you know, end product from this. and that's why I think it's so great to being connected to nature because it's something where we're most of us, actually more of us aren't being connected to, but most of us are not, and we need to because it's so good for us. You've mentioned having binoculars.

Is there a lot of equipment that one needs to have to get started or what are the basics that you would recommend for you to step outside the door right now? An open mind. open eyes and ears then I'd say binoculars and a book but I think they are secondary

I spent years not knowing anything about birds I spent years calling sparrows baby birds and starlings' mummy birds and blackbirds daddy birds but it didn't matter because I had a relationship with them does the name make you love them more than you know

than anything else no A name helps you to categorise. Yeah, of course. But that can come afterwards. And I think plus, once you fall in love with the whole idea and realise this is really lovely, then you want to learn more. You want to learn about it, about your own pace.

And it's so important that you do it at your pace and don't feel pressurised thinking that I need to do this, and I can't call myself a burden because I don't know whatever. It doesn't matter. It's a really individual thing. when I started the whole urban birding sort of brand as it were I thought to myself

I wanted to sell it to the media and change people's thinking on the whole subject and I thought I'd sell it as a lifestyle choice up there with meditation and yoga and it worked I mean the media loved it and I remember once someone wrote to a piece

and the headline was Urban Birding Ornophologist knew rock and roll anyone can be involved you know and I say it again you don't need to be an expert you don't need

I mean I I kind of read this book as a kid Birds of Britain Europe Middle East and North Africa I was a bit weird because I was really

totally you know I was obsessed and I wanted to know everything so yeah I knew all the birds in this book

by the time I was eight but I was different I think most people you know even if it's just a casual thing, it's fine. You know, I think it's more important to connect to nature. It's more important to plug in and really help your spirit. It's so important.

Because, you know, like you say, in terms of well-being, the Science Focused Book Club read Bird Therapy by Joe Harkness in July. And Joe talks about the mental health benefits. He calls listening to birdsong almost like a kind of meditation, like you've said. do you know if there is any research that's gone into the actual impacts of birding on mental health? There's been a lot of research. I mean, I can't quote any back to you now because I can't think of them right now. But there's been plenty of research.

But the thing is, research is great because it proves that, you know, there is that issue. But for people like me, I've always known that. You know, it's always been known, always. I mean, there was a time when I was depressed. I remember going to the doctor not feeling great. I was feeling really down. The doctor said to me, you've got mild depression. I hear some pills.

And I said, I'm not taking any pills. So he said to me in that case, go out and do whatever you love, do more. So I went home and got my binoculars and birding pull me through. So it does have calming effects. There's lots of research out there about it in terms of how seeing green and blue is good for our well-being. and the fact that you know you're kind of being quiet and at one with yourself

and actually seeing things that make you feel happy. I mean, for me it's obvious. But, you know, you just have to think about how you feel when you see a puppy or a kitten. You know, it's the same kind of thing. You know, it's just very important to

keep hold of those things and to realize that we are all part of nature. You know, we're not separate. Without nature, we don't exist, simple as out. And we need to learn that pretty quick. And nature obviously has such an impact on us, but are we having an impact on...

Are birds evolving in our urban environments? Are they changing because of it? Yeah, some birds are. There's a couple of species, like, for example, the Great Titt. It's... They did some research in Aberystworth University in Wales, and they found that the urban great tit are singing louder to combat traffic, but also are not being recognised by their rural counterparts.

The songs not been recognised. So it's quite interesting where they are sort of developing. And there's other species as well that are kind of developing louder songs to combat the actual urban hubbub. But it's gone to stage further. There's a species of bird in North America called, the dark-eyed junco.

I think that's the official name or it could be Slate-Coloured Junko. Slate-colored Junko actually is called. It's like a sparrow. And in the east, it's very grey-looking with a white belly, but the further west you go

becomes browner on its back. But there's a population, the most westerly population which lived in the mountains above San Diego in California, and historically during the winter, they were travelled down

the mountain and be on the coastal plain, wintering, which includes San Diego as well. And then head back up in the mountains in spring. And one day in the 80s, on the campus of San Diego University, a daughter of one of the lecturers discovered that they were junker still there during the summer. So she told her father, who was a birder, and at first he didn't believe her, but then when he checked, you realized that they were there. So they started to study them. And I realised that they began over the years to fundamentally change.

The birds in the campus, their song was louder. The colours changed in that in the mountains, the male has a really blackhead and has really strong white out of tail feathers, which are used in aggression and territorial disputes. Whereas in the campus, the... the head became more diffused, as did the white out of tail feathers. So they weren't becoming,

they weren't as aggressive as they were in the mountains. In the mountains, they bred once a year, once every summer, and the male took no part in raising the young. Whereas in the campus, they bred up to four times a year, and the male was the greatest father on two legs. And also, the birds in the campus

are much more approachable than the ones in the mountains, who were very aloof. So what they did was they captured a certain amount from mountain and from the campus, put them in an aviary together, subjected them to the same conditions, same light conditions, same food, and the mountain birds and the campus birds kept separate,

which is effectively evolution in process, which if you extrapolate that, could mean that when our cities become, because more, more cities are getting bigger and bigger, that we're going to have many more megacities, there may become populations of animals that evolve in that one city and become a separate species,

which has already happened in London with a species of mosquito found in the underground. So that could be the future. So to answer your question, yes, birds do adapt. But classically, the birds have spent most of their lives, if not all, in urban areas. There's a lot of other birds that are transient visitors, migrants that come through on the way to and from Africa, for example,

or birds that just come during the winter or during the summer. So the changes there may be different and slower. But that said, there's one species called the Black Cap, which is a warbler, and generally it's found in Europe and winters in Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and generally they used to migrate from north to south, but over the last 40 years, and this could be, down to climate change, the birds in east, in the east, like in Germany and, you know, eastern Europe are flying west and wintering in places like Britain. And over the past 40 years,

they normally eat insects, but during the winter they've kind of substituted their diet or supplemented their diet by feeding on bird food put out by us in bird feeders, nuts and peanuts and stuff like that. And their bills have got thicker to deal with the feeders. And that's in the space of 40 years. So evolution doesn't necessarily happen over millions of years. It can happen very, very quickly. Wow. And on that, should we be feeding birds? Because sometimes you read differing opinions. Should I be putting bird food out in my garden? My answer is yes. I think birds should be fed or can be fed all year round, especially during winter, of course. During this spring, summer and autumn, they tend to find their natural food first before coming to you.

But if you're putting out food regularly, I mean, obviously lesser amounts during those periods, then birds get to know that you have a food source that when they do need it, they can come to straight away. Because garden birds have a circuit that they use. And when they are, when by late summer there's lots of young birds out, the young birds start, you know, flocking and just doing a circuit. realize whilst they're doing a circuit, oh, Amy's got some food. I remember that next time when it gets really cold. And that's how it works. So I'm a firm believer. But I think you need to do it responsibly. You've got to try and feed and clean your feeders once a week or two weeks.

I think also put out water as well. Water is just as important as food. If you're feeding birds on the ground, because some birds don't go on bird tables or feeders, holders, then put the food in a tray and bring it in every evening. Because if you live it out at night, you might be attracted to some unwelcome guests. So, yeah, there is some responsibility to it as well. I never put a nest box right next to a bird feed either, because it's like living next to McDonald's, you wouldn't want that, would you? That's a good analogy.

And why is it that there are some birds like pigeons and gulls that will happily thrive off our leftovers but you don't ever see like, I don't know, thrushes or tits sort of ambushing you for chips like you've seen those pictures of seagulls doing? Well, obviously those birds, I mean even blackbirds and all those kind of birds, they still feed them some of our leftovers

and they just don't do it, they do it quite discreetly when we're not there. But the gulls, a lot of that, is learned to behaviour. They're taught by humans to come down and get chips. So it's not every one of the species that actually does it, but it's learned behavior. But, yeah, birds like gulls and pigeons are essentially victims of our excess

because they have learned that they've got an easy food source, but for that, they get, you know, they become villains. But, you know, they're demonized by us. but it's not an effort because those are the birds when I've asked others I actually mentioned that I was speaking to you today and I've asked for some questions

and lots of people said how can I see things that aren't pigeons and seagulls and obviously that's the question that it would be great for you to answer but it is also a shame especially like you say because we've got wood pigeons

which are really, you know, interested, really great to hear I'd love to hear the sound of a wood pigeon it's a shame they've been villainised in that way. Yeah, and by the way there's no such things as a seagull Oh yeah

BBC World Life would tell me off for that wouldn't they Yeah actually there is one seagull one true seagull that lives in the UK but that's called a kitty wake and it's a well it's a real true seagull even though there is a colony in Newcastle nesting on a time bridge and other buildings nearby

and that's the only inland colony or the most inland colony in the world but during the winter they're clear off into the sea and the ocean and they go off and you don't see them until the next spring. Whereas the goals that we have, the hearing goals, less of a back back goals, they're coastal. But they're called sea goals because they're by the seasides. You know, the name is stuck. Although they are in, especially in Bristol, in the city centre, there's a lot of them.

Yeah. What other kinds of birds can I see in the city? And where do we need to go specifically to see them? Should I look out for places with certain assets? specs, hedges, trees, what am I looking for? Okay, you can see practically anything in a city, to be honest, but there's a usual crew of birds you can see. I mean, in Bristol, which is quite a green city, you can see all the,

I mean, most cities, or most towns and cities up and down in the UK, have a similar sort of line-up. So you're going to have blackbirds, softroats, great tip, blue tip, Dunnocks, wrens, crows, pigeons, certain species of gull, robin, you know, you're going to have a whole kind of collection, wood pigeon that you'll see. And then green finches, gold finches. And then you can see other birds. You can start off if you've got a garden.

That's a great place to start. That's why I started. If you haven't got a garden, you can nip down to your local park. Birds are everywhere. It's not as if you have to walk somewhere before you see them. They're everywhere. I mean, that's why I use my phrase to look up. Because you look up this time of year you'll still be seeing Swifts flying around.

house martins if you're lucky swallows so those birds are in the air you can see them straight away but parks are good to start in terms of finding birds and especially when the park has a variety of habitats so for example if the park has a lake you're going to see a different set of birds that you're going to see things like mallards and moose swans and great pressy of grieve and little grieve and cormorants and herons and then if you walk away from that or around the edges of the lake could be some reeds and then you have some reed dwelling birds during the summer you might have reed warbler

or sedge warblers and then you may have more ends in the reeds and what have you so you have a different selection of birds there you walk along the grassy areas you can have yet another different selection you might have starlings you know pigeons on the on the lawn

on the grass you're going to have gulls in the winter especially and then you might walk into a wooded area and then you have a whole different suite of birds, race-sported woodpecker, several species of tits, long-tailed tit included, you know, blackbirds, song thrush, carrying crow, magpie, j. And then you walk to another area. So you get a collection of different birds that use the habitats. And what's great about having a local patch that has a selection of different habitats is that not only do you learn about

a whole range of birds, a whole wide range of birds, which you may not necessarily see in your back garden, but you also learn about habitats unconsciously. You learn that, you know, the lake is good to see waterbirds, obviously. But you also learn that if too many, if there's too many stolen scooters and shopping trolley's truck in there, it doesn't really help. So you begin to learn about conservation. And I think you also, once you start getting involved in studying, in your own way, that is, not officially,

but just basically just studying what kind of things are around, you start falling in love. You start falling in love. And you start getting to the point where you think, You know what? I will lie in front of a tractor or bulldozer because I don't want this place to destroy. This is my haven. This is why I come to ground myself, even if it's just for those reasons. And that's why it's so important to open your mind to nature. It's more than just watching birds. It's actually opening your mind and being connected. So you've got to think of it. If you have to, you've got to think about it in terms of your own well-being, your own personal well-being, your medicine. You need to have this.

You need to have areas of green near to you where you can connect to. And birding is just one way of bringing that to you. Do you have a most memorable or a best bird watching experience? Where do I start? I get one every day. I have these experiences every day because it's not about rare birds. It could be about anything, you know, and it's how it makes you feel. I can't even start. I mean, there's been so many.

There's been hundreds, thousands of the years. So I'm just happy to be out. I'm happy to be able to see them. The day that I don't see any birds is the day that, you know, it's time to die as far as I'm concerned. So if there's anyone listening who has loved to hear you talk, but it's still maybe a little bit unsure about beginning, what kind of final words do you have to say to them?

Don't be afraid. just open your eyes and just try and get yourself engaged. Try and meet up with people who have similar interests and maybe you can learn from them so you can actually go out in groups and hang out with people. I think it's important to... The most important thing is to enjoy yourself and not to get yourself pressurised by anything and anyone

because at the end of day, experiencing nature, I think not only it can be done as a group, but it can also be done on a very personal level. And it's how you, you know, how it's how it makes you feel, which is the most important thing. And it should make you feel great. That was David Lindo, the urban birder, talking about birdwatching, biodiversity and getting everyone out into nature. The new issue of BBC Science Focus magazine is out this week, and in it we explore the groundbreaking new techniques unlocking the mysteries of the ocean and meet the researchers going to great lengths to find out how climate change is affecting the planet.

As always, there are loads more science stories inside and on sciencefocus.com. And if you like what you've just listened to, then please leave us a rating or a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the Science Focus podcast from the BBC Science Focus magazine team. With the UK's best-selling science and technology monthly, available in print and in several digital formats throughout the world. Find out more at ScienceFocus.com. or look out for us in your app store. This podcast is sponsored by Name, Audio and Focal.

The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analog warmth. Alongside French acoustic specialist Focal, Name creates high-end audio systems combining innovation with craftsmanship so you can listen to music,

just as the artist intended. Discover more at No. Name Audio.com. Some people never stop being part of what's happening around them. They stay curious, engaged, connected to ideas and to others. That's what defines life at Villa Gardens in Pasadena. It's a community shaped by conversation, culture, and a shared sense of curiosity. So when the conversation turns to what's next, it doesn't feel like stepping away.

It feels like staying exactly where you belong. Explore your options at Villa Garden. a nonprofit life plan senior community within the front porch family