Instant Genius - What we’re getting wrong about narcissists

Episode Date: August 16, 2026

Oftentimes in popular culture we’ll hear the term narcissist used to describe a person who has an inflated opinion of themselves, a big ego or someone who tends to overestimate their own abilities. However, in psychology, narcissistic personality disorder is defined as a diagnosable mental health condition that can cause just as many issues for those living with it as it does for those around them. In this episode we’re joined by neuroscientist and best-selling author Dr Dean Burnett, to talk about many of the misunderstandings that surround narcissistic personality disorder. He explains some of potential triggers that can lead to the development of this complex condition, why it’s innately incredibly difficult to diagnose, and how, paradoxically, many narcissists can suffer from profound feelings of self-loathing. Take your curiosity further with a subscription to BBC Science Focus magazine. Every issue is packed with fascinating insights into the science behind everyday life, the latest breakthroughs and expert analysis, delivered straight to your door. Receive an extra £5 when you subscribe using the code SF5OFF, (minimum spend £20, see full terms and conditions on our website). https://www.ourmediashop.com/bbc-science-focus-magazine-pod30 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're richer than you think. Hello and welcome to Instant Genius, a bite-sized master class in podcast form. Every Monday and Friday, you'll hear world-leading scientists and experts talking about the most fascinating ideas in science and technology today. I'm Jason Goodyear, Commission editor, a BBC science focus. Oftentimes in popular culture will hear the term narcissists used to describe a person who has an inflated opinion of themselves, a big ego, or someone who tends to overestimate their own abilities. However, in psychology, narcissistic personality disorder is defined as a diagnosable mental health condition

that can cause just as many issues for those living with it as it does for those around them. In this episode, we're joined by neuroscientist and best-selling author Dr Dean Burnett to talk about the many of the misunderstandings that surround narcissistic personality disorder. He explains some of the potential triggers that can lead to the development of this complex condition, why it's inately incredibly difficult to diagnose, and how, paradoxically, many narcissists can suffer from profound feelings of self-loathing. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.

Thanks to that me, Jason. That was a pleasure. Great to have you back on again, Dean. So today we're talking all about narcissism. So I think let's start with some definitions because narcissism is a term a bit like psychopath that's banded around quite a lot and not often probably particularly used very accurately in psychological terms. So we do have something known as narcissistic personality disorder.

So what is that and how does it differ from a person who's just got to say a big ego? Yeah, I think that's really the crux of the matter. People complain about therapy speak and things like that become in part of everything language. And I think this is a good example of that. Narcistic personality disorder is, as an individual disorder. It's maladaptive. It stops you from functioning. like a typical person would, which is obviously of a concern.

People say narcissism to refer to self-centeredness, boastful, attention-seeking, things like that. But personality disorder is a lot more complex, a lot more nuanced, a more subtle. So it's defined as, I find, the DSM definition here, a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, sense of superiority in fantasy or behaviour, a need for admiration and lack of empathy, tend to begin teenage or even earlier than that, but also to be expressed in a range of ways. So it is a sort of self-aggrandizing, self-promotional, self-belief, sense of self-worth beyond the norm to the extent which actually can be quite disruptive to the ability to form relationships and operate as a standard human, you know. So, yeah, it's a problem. It's not just a sort of like someone being a little bit full of themselves.

It is a genuine medical issue. So I think that's a really important thing to understand there. So what are some of the signs, you know, are they, I don't want to say obvious. but are they like quite clear or can they often be sort of subtle? Yeah, I mean, the classic ones are going to be quite, you know, stark. You know, someone who is only cares about themselves at the expense of everyone else and only wants to, you know, do things which benefit themselves and, you know, has no concern with anyone else's needs.

Complete lack of empathy is typically thought of as an narcissistic trait. Not just autism, like you mentioned psychopaths, like they would be people who clinically do not have or lack. severely lack empathy. But some of the more sort of alternative expressions of narcissism are actually sort of counterintuitive because sometimes they can be very self-loathing.

I know that doesn't make any sense from what you think of as narcissism, but it actually is sort of part of the same spectrum of you have a sense of self-worth or self-importance, which is way beyond the average persons. So either you sort of express that with sheer arrogance or sheer confidence and self-obsession

or you obsess over the fact that you deserve the best and you don't have it. You know, like, no one's good enough for me, nothing meets my standards. And you feel really bad about that. You know, they can feel really sort of, you know, sense of self-worth. I should be the best. Why aren't I the best? Why aren't I the king of everything? Why doesn't everybody love me?

That can sort of become an expression of narcissism, which is very, very self-loathing, self-critical. And it doesn't make sense when you think of, like, the classic portrayal of narcissistic behavior, people sort of being how great I am, how marvelous screw you, I'm the best. But it does actually, it's a different expression of the same mindset of like, no one's more important than me. So why aren't I getting what I deserve? And therefore, it becomes sort of very, very self-critical. And that sort of doesn't, people don't realize that's a key part of narcissism.

You can be either very grandiose, very boast, very boastful, very sort of high flying, because you're so confident. Or you can have, like, constant problems. You can be very, very bad at sustaining a career. because you, nothing meets your standards and you become very hard to work with or relationships. You can't sustain those

because every partner you potentially have is insufficient or inadequate in some way. And therefore, you know, you become very isolated, very alone. And yeah, so there are two ways that can express. It's the classic, you know, everyone expects type of narcissism

or the deeply self-critical, the poor self-worth Nazism, which, you know, intuitively doesn't make sense, but actually does make sense when you think it's coming from a similar place, just manifest in a different way. So is that, I've heard people use the term vulnerable narcissist. Is that what they mean when they're using that term?

I'd assume so, yes. People do recognise that someone, it's a sort of classic trope of a lot of, you know, fictional relationships now, like someone who is like, things like weaponising competence, like the idea that I can't do anything or learn helplessness. That's probably a better way of looking at it, as in, I can't do anything by myself. I need everything to do it for me. And that can come across as quite, you know, quite subservient, quite meek, but it's not really.

It is a way of controlling others, just in a different way to the sort of the grandiose, the balshy, the confident approach. So it is ultimately selfish behavior, but it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, in the sort of classic Donald Trumpian, I'm the best, everyone look at me sort of sense. It can easily be, everyone should be doing what I say because, oh, no, look at me, I'm so helpless. And that's, you know, it's another variation of that. So do you know what sort of drives this tendency? I mean, you know, are there any environmental factors, the way that someone grows up that can lead them along this way of thinking? Yeah, I mean, there are loads of different potential triggers for it. I mean, you can imagine someone, you know, the obvious choice to be someone who grows up being completely spoiled.

Like never been told no, having whatever they want it because they have very rich and intolerant parents who don't actually do much parenting. and someone like, if you grow up thinking, my needs are the only ones that are important and everyone else obeys them, then yeah, that's a lesson that'll sink in, if you've never had anything to teach you otherwise. And I think you see this a lot with, maybe not so much anymore,

but in the classic days of celebrities, you know, like the divas or like, all the child styles, that was always a big one. So you think of someone being like a very small child, but in a massive Hollywood movie, and they become this prized star, you know, like, you're the, you know, the big box office draw.

So they've surrounded by people then who are just protecting them and giving them whatever they want to keep you happy. And that does send people off the rails got a lot. They think, well, I've been taught from a young age that my needs are paramount

at more importantly than anyone else's. And you end up people with people behaving in sort of ways which reflect that. And you know, it's got the classic, the pampered celebrities, the superstars who don't turn up places in demand, you know, 50 puppies in their room and a jar of gold M&Ms.

It's not necessarily clinical, but you can sort of see how that behaviour manifests. So if you already are prone to not, you know, if you're something about your genetics or your background or your development suggests you have a poor empathy sense or a poor ability to understand others, then, yeah, that can easily snowball and end up in a sort of place like this. So, yeah. So that's really fascinating, like both of those angles of narcissism. So you kind of think, like typically you think, like, oh, you know, narcissists, they're just unpleasant people and they're just damaging everyone around them. But what about their own emotional lives, you know, having just said what you've said? Yeah, I mean, it's very, it's a disorder for a reason. It doesn't do.

It's not a good thing to have, these tendencies. And I should have explained a bit for the previous question. I can easily see someone becoming narcissistic because they have a bad background, a bad upbringing. in. If they are taught, like, no one, no one's ever going to sort of protect you or care for you, then obviously, yeah, your instinctively would be, okay, I got to prize myself. No one's got my back. I've got to be, look after myself constantly. If you grow up learning that lesson, then, yeah, you translate that into adulthood, then, yeah, you've been taught from a young age that only you matter. No one else is going to look out for you, so you can end up becoming narcissistic in that way.

But that's obviously, I don't know, it's not good for your internal well-being. It sets impossible standards, It's like, okay, I deserve everything I want. It's very rare you can get that because that's not how the world works. Unless you are born into extreme wealth and influence, then yeah, okay, then you probably will get where you want. But, you know, it's one of those things that you see, you know, I think the accusations level a lot of billionaires now, the tech bros who have more money than anyone could ever possibly spend, but they never seem happy.

They always want something more. They want validation. They want to be admired. They want to be loved. They want to be people to recognize them for their achievements, not just for what they've got. So it is, you know, humans are like that. We are very social. We do need positive relationships other people in order to maintain good well-being.

And I think, imagine when you are, like, if you're a massively powerful billionaire, you don't have normal relationships because that's not the world you exist in. But you want that. You still crave the support and good feelings of others. And it's harder to get that when you don't relate to them. You don't have any sort of connection to them. So I can imagine, you know, being narcissistic, if you think, well, only I matter. but I still want other people, yeah, only I matter, but I want other people to agree.

And that's something you can't really achieve unless you sort of, you know, work really hard to impress people, which if you're a narcissist, you perhaps don't want to do that, because why would you? Like, what do they matter to me? So it's like a bit of a contradiction in terms. I'm the best, and I need everyone else to agree. And they wouldn't because people grow up saying, I'm the best, are largely unpopular. They don't tend to resonate well other people, you know. So, yeah, I think it would be a tricking internal life to be an actual, you know,

some of the genuine narcissistic personality disorder. Yeah, so you mentioned, though, that like, often these, we tend, or some people, tend to call these eber successful people narcissists. But is there any correlation between narcissism and success? So, like, funnily enough, my wife was just in Florence, and she was doing the, like, Leonardo Da Vinci tour or whatever. And I spoke to her the other day and she says, well, oh, it's really funny.

I was watching it. And his art teacher, when, you know, Leonardo was, I don't know, seven years old or something, just said, well, after he saw his painting, why am I bothering? The guy's so much better than me, you know. Is there any correlation?

I know, that's an extreme example. But is there any correlation between that, between success and narcissism? Or actually, not success. ability in narcissism. I don't know if there's any actual sort of direct link between capability, like being able to be good at something. I mean, you can argue like one begat to the other in a certain way,

and then if you turns out you are really good at, you hear there's like high-profile footballers. Certain world-famous ones are known to be quite narcissistic because, like, you know, I'm the best at this, I'm the best, I'm the best of the thing half our species is obsessed with. And that's kind of, you know, that is quite an achievement. and when you are constantly being admired by countless other people, then yeah, you will, you know, that will rub off on you.

That will inform your worldview. So I can see that success would lead to not the personality sort of per se, but tendencies. But there is obviously, it's a correlation between success and sort of confidence. Like it's, you can't just assume that, you know, success is automatically meritocratic because a lot of it isn't. A lot of it's just like who you know, opportunity, luck, being born in the right place, right time, things like that. So that will be a big part of it. And if you are a narcissist who express it with supreme confidence, that will lead to, you know, opportunities which other people wouldn't have.

Like I'm one of those people who's constantly my own worst critic. You know, I've got a voice in my head saying, no, no one cares what you think. Stop doing that. And, you know, I've learned to tune that out. But it's an issue, you know, which a lot of people have. So if I didn't have that, Lord knows what I'd be doing right now. You can sort of see how that would lead to that sort of thing. You know, this human brain is, like we evolved to resists.

respond to confidence because we are, you're thinking from a tribal perspective, like humans living in primitive tribes in the wild, someone runs up and says, there's a tiger, let's run. And you go, okay, that's a confident guy, I guess he knows what we're talking about. Do you trust that? Someone comes up saying, there may be a tiger coming. We're not entirely sure yet. Let's, let's do a vote and see who should, and then you're dead because the tiger's got to eating you all. So yeah, we've evolved to respond to confidence and, you know, those sort of qualities because that kept us alive for a while. But we don't live in that world anymore. but we still are primed to respond to confident people

and narcissists of the more classical sort are typically very confident. So, you know, a lot of like modern success is based around or involves confidence, like stock market stuff or punditry or, you know, just making confident predictions about things, they don't come to pass. You made the prediction and people assume, you know what you're on about, consulting and stuff.

There's a lot of confidence involved in the modern financial sphere and having that confidence by being a narcissist will overlap. with that. So yeah, there probably is a significant portion of successful people who have at least traits than the average population. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and

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working across every system. And it's ready to go from day one so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Do we know anything about the kind of awareness of narcissistic traits? So say somebody, like you said, like a successful sports person or something, do they realize that they're displaying this narcissism?

Or do they just think, well, it's obvious, isn't it? I'm the best of what you do. Yeah, so how much insight do they have into it? It is a tricky one to pin down. Because obviously, in order to have a diagnosis of narcissic personality disorder, you usually have to submit yourself to the diagnostic process, which involves admitting or accepting there might be something wrong with you, which is not typical narcissistic trait.

Unless, of course, it can happen where obviously it's called you so much problem, like why is my life not working out, why is everyone against me, why my relationship's not lasting, then you can sort of at least objectively say, I should see someone about this, maybe I'm doing something wrong. that requires a level of insight which narcissistic personalities would sort of discourage because why wouldn't it? That's the whole nature of it. Like, I'm the best, I'm perfect. And in order to accept that you need a diagnosis, you have to accept you're not perfect, which obviously that's a tricky circle to square or square to circle. I don't know which I can't remember which way

the train on the same goes. But it is, you know, narcissism isn't linked in like a lack of intelligence or anything. It's a lack of empathy, a lack of like a type of motion intelligence, but that's not the only type which applies. So yeah, it's tricky to sort of say, because obviously being narcissistic means being confident in yourself and your abilities and getting a diagnosis suggests that you're not. So yeah, it's a hard one to pin down. We've been talking about generally really successful people. And I recognize this is a sort of thorny area to why I'm just going to ask you. Are there any overlaps between narcissistic personality disorder? And, other delusional disorders, if I can call them that?

Yeah, these things always happen across a sort of a broad spectrum of stuff. I mean, you could get someone who was a pure narcissist who just has that, but, you know, that can be coupled with things like anxiety. So you're just constantly anxious, like, I am the best, you're the best at all times, and that's going to be quite stressful existence for some people. Or, you know, like, why aren't I get in all the things I deserve? That could be quite depressing. So you end up with sort of depression and stuff.

But then we mentioned again a few times like a psychopathy, is in those psychopaths tend to be very charismatic, quite successful because they lack any empathy and don't have to be concerned other people's feelings because they don't, they just don't work that way. I mean, that's a very, very broad stroke there. So they will often display narcissistic traits because they only care about themselves

because they're only aware of themselves in that respect. They don't recognize other people as valid as individuals. So, yeah, it's kind of, it'll be quite hard to understand. entangle these different things and sort of separate them out into distinct disorders. But that's always the case with mental health issues and personality disorders especially because those are even more sort of thorny, even more subtle and nuanced and complex. You know, even like measuring personality and defining it in the first place is challenging. So it's like saying like what type of personality you have and how it's going wrong is even more

more than a pill struggle sometimes. So yeah, it's overlapping with lots of other disorders. But anyway, it makes it harder to pin down. So often when people these days use the term narcissists, at some point they're going to bring up social media, has this driven a prevalence in narcissism or has it just made it more evident? I think that's a tricky one because one thing I've always said is, you know, I've been asked a lot about how social media is impacting the brain and things like that. I do think there's something to be said for the fact that it's good in that everybody benefits from having a community. I mean, there are so many people now who have friends and connections and support networks because of social media, which we wouldn't have had one before. Vulnerable people, isolated people, new, divergent people, and that's all good.

But I do think that not everyone benefits of having an audience, and a lot of people see social media as that. You know, it's like not just these are my connections. These are people watching me. These are people expecting things from me. And, you know, therefore you have to give them something, give them content or, like, show off all your stuff and all your life and stuff. things. And I do think anyone who has a tendency towards narcissistic traits or like inclinations, yeah, they probably will have that platform. They sort of mean it allows them to do that. So you do get, you know, classic tales of all those influencers who are like sort of expecting

free things from people because they're an influencer or because they offer like, I could crush your business in an instant. And I think we are probably seeing more outward expressions of narcissism than we used to because that medium exists. now. I think you saw this in the early reality TV. Like they were talking about the Big Brother, people auditioning for that. I remember one sort of person being like, I'm

going to be famous, I know I'm going to be famous. And though they seem quite narcissistic to a delusional extent because I'm not point to they say why they should be famous. Like what do they do? What's their talent? What's their skill? They just were convinced they were going to be famous for existing. And you probably wouldn't have got that

in the, you know, the pre- reality TV pre-social media era because that wasn't really a thing, you know, unless you were like super famous or a royal or something. There were less ways to express narcissism in the public forum. And now we have them. So we are probably seeing more of it because it has an outlet now. So is it a sort of final summing up point? Before, you know, we just spoke for the previous 20-odd minutes or so, I was going to say, you know, what can we do to protect ourselves from narcissists? But I'd like to expand that question now. say what can we do to protect ourselves against narcissists and protect them from themselves?

Yeah, it's a tricky one because obviously, you know, at some point you've got to sort of respect someone's autonomy. And I do think it's something to be said for being a bit more hesitant with the label itself because obviously, I think it comes back to something I said early on in recording that therapy speak is becoming ever more prevalent. And for the most part, that's good because people can, you know, recognize their issues and problems and express them in an articulate and correct and useful way. But it does creep into areas which is not really relevant, not necessary.

Like people say, I'm a little bit OCD. No, you like things neat. That's fine. You don't have to have a diagnosis for that. That's not, yeah, but also it can then be used to sort of maybe make things more significant. It can be used as a sort of, it can be weaponized a bit.

Like when you say to someone, you're a narcissist, you might mean you're doing something for yourself, which I wish you wouldn't do. That's not the same thing. You know, that's just, that's normal human behavior. Because somebody being a narcissist and makes them feel particularly guilty

about, you know, something which is otherwise normal. And you can sort of see how it could be used by a narcissist themselves. And like, you're doing something for yourself, whereas everyone should be doing something for me. Ego, you're a narcissist. We're in actual fact, I'm a narcissist because I want you to do everything for me. And that's...

So it's a tricky one to pin down that. So I would hesitate just by using the word. But, you know, if you see someone like usually online who is doing something, self-aggrandizing for their own benefit, for their own clicks or something, and you'd think they shouldn't be doing that. Then first off, I think you just don't engage, don't reinforce that. It can be quite compelling to sort of get sucked into these people doing all mad stuff on stunts online, but you know, you don't have to enable this. You don't have to encourage that sort of

mindset because it often doesn't lead anywhere useful. Someone expressing their art, someone expressing their creativity, fine, but someone sort of just screaming for attention is probably not the best person to have it, if that makes any sense, because we're obviously, if they don't have full-blown narcissistic personality disorder, that can, you know, you can lead somewhere less helpful. But obviously, like, someone who has full narcissistic personality disorder is the whole other thing. But yeah, if you've got to protect yourself, generally with them, just because someone's confident doesn't mean they're right. That is a useful lesson to take on, I think, to someone comfortably saying they're the best. They may believe that, but, you know, doesn't necessarily

make it the case. But we are inclined to respond. that way to perceive it as such. And just being aware of that can be quite helpful. And yeah, if you see someone like aggrandizing themselves to a damaging extent, you know, sort of like the point that they're pushing people away, you can potentially raise this. You might not get a good reaction. But yeah, it's something to keep an eye on, I suppose. If you have something like that in your life, then, you know, just keep an eye on like the self-aggrandizing tendencies and see if they are crossing the line into some unhealthy territories. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius, brought to you from the team behind BBC Science Focus. That was Dr. Dean

Burnett. If you liked what you just heard, then please do consider subscribing to Instant Genius on your preferred podcast platform. If you'd like to see our guests and hosts in person, then why not check out our YouTube channel at Science Focus. If you've enjoyed this podcast, why not take your curiosity a step further with BBC Science Focus magazine? Receive an extra five pounds off when you subscribe using the code SF5 off. For more details, see the show description. The current issue of BBC Science Focus magazine is out now. Pick up a copy wherever you buy your favourite magazines or download us on your app store of choice.

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