Instant Genius - Will we be able to have babies in space?

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Future human races may indeed live extra-terrestrial lives. But how will we reproduce and continue survival once we’re in space? To find out, we spoke to space gynaecologist – yes, you read that right – Dr Varsha Jain from the University of Edinburgh. We cover everything from the myths about women’s bodies in space that stopped them being allowed on the early missions, right through to the impacts of space on a pregnancy, and the future of space babies. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is sponsored by name, audio and focal. Streaming has made music more accessible than ever, but true listening is about more than ease. It's about quality. British audio experts name audio, alongside French acoustic specialist focal, combine handcrafted tradition with cutting-edge innovation and high-end materials,

delivering digital precision with analogue warmth. So you can experience exceptional sound at home. Music just as the artist intended. Visit name audio.com. to learn more. Welcome to Instant Genius, a bite-sized masterclass in podcast form. I'm Noah Leach, news editor at BBC Science Focus magazine. Future human races may indeed live extraterrestrial lives, on the moon, Mars, or if some have

their way, even on Venus. But how will we reproduce and continue survival once we're up there? To find out, we spoke to space gynecologist. Yes, you heard. That right, space gynecologist Dr. Vasha Jane from the University of Edinburgh about women in space and reproductive health. We cover everything from the myths about women's bodies in space that stopped them being allowed on the early space missions, right through to the impacts of space on a pregnancy and the future of space babies. So Vasha, you are a space gynecologist. What does that mean?

Hi, yes. So a space gynecologist is someone who has an interest in space medicine, which is medicine and the specialty of understanding how astronauts are affected by the space environment, and someone who's a gynecologist, so someone who looks after women and their health. It's a title that was given to me by some media colleagues, so some journalists a few years ago now, but it seems to have stuck, and I quite like the title. Is there anyone else working in this field? Is it quite a big one? It definitely is not a big one. As far as I know, I'm the first person to have been bestowed with this honourable title,

But I think it stems from the fact that I wanted to take an academic approach to women's health related to astronauts and astronaut health. And I started doing that about 10 years ago. And it's allowed, by giving it a title, it's allowed the field to grow. And so I know there are other people working in the area now. But when I started, it was just myself as an official capacity from an academic side. Prior to me coming into it, there were definitely space medicine doctors who were interested in women's health. but no one sort of really focused on the academic approach. So you've done research into some really fascinating fields

in terms of women's reproductive health and space. And obviously now there are women going up to space and obviously one of the next Artemis crew will be one of those women, one of those female astronauts. But the history of women going into space is fraught with some pretty hilarious myths actually surrounding women's reproductive health. Could you tell us about some of those?

Absolutely. It's those myths that actually led to a really huge delay from the first woman going into space, which was Valentina Tereshkova, to then the first US woman or American woman going to space. It was a gap of about 20 years. And the reason being is that no one knew back then what would happen to women's periods when they went into space.

There was a big thought process that periods instead of coming out of the body, the blood would flow inside the body, a process called retrograde menstruation. And then there was also the whole conversation around how many menstrual products would astronauts need. And there's a very famous quote about whether the astronauts were asked whether they would need about 200 tampons per menstrual cycle. And I know for the majority of women that I see in clinic, 200 tampons definitely is too much. And so the female astronauts at the time got over this by just saying, well, why don't we just see what happens? And it was such a sensible approach that actually we don't know about this area of work. Why don't we just see? And actually, thankfully,

menstruation can happen completely normally in space. The astronauts aren't affected by the space environment if they do want to have a period in space. The question is whether they do want to have one or not. And that's completely personal choice. And that's where my research started off, actually, where I started looking at what choices do the female astronauts have if they don't want to have a period in space. And there are lots of benefits to having a period lower lots of benefits to stopping the period. And it's just completely the astronaut's decision as to what they decide. And so that's where I started my work in this area. How would you see it nowadays? Are there still myths surrounding women's health in space? Has it much improved? I think it's drastically improved.

I think a big part of that has been the attitude that now. NASA have taken towards women's health. They've been very inclusive. They've been very open to the idea that if a new technology or a new advancement is made, they take that on board and they try and absorb that within their approaches. Now, we've got to remember that NASA was traditionally a military organization. That's where it came from. However, it's really moved on from there. They really do want to talk about women's health. They want it to be open. They want it to be evidence-based. And this is published. This is open information. A lot of the female astronauts that go into space are of reproductive years, which means that they could get pregnant

if they wanted to. But we don't know how the space environment would affect a pregnancy. So NASA have been very open and really great about it, actually, that they support the idea of egg freezing, for example, before a female astronaut goes into space. And you said there that women have normal menstrual cycles up in space. What about the impacts on the wider reproductive system? What happens to astronauts' reproductive systems, so women and men who go up into space? So I'm going to start my answer to that, giving you a bit of background about the astronauts. The astronauts go into space to do a job. So they are there to do their work, which is quite often scientific, but also to try and understand how engineering and

satellites and things and keep things functioning so we can protect the Earth as well. So for example, a lot of the hurricanes they can be seen in space before they impact countries and they look after them. So it also means that astronauts are not research participants. So quite a lot of the information or the data that we have from astronauts, we've got to accept that they're volunteering that information or it may be part of their medical records. So having said that, the next thing I need to say is how many people we're talking about. So overall, about 650 people, if I look at the US, European data, have been into space. And about 10 or 11 percent are female. So that's not characteristic or an example of the earth-based population. It's not a 50-50 split. There's very

few women that have been into space comparatively. And so again, there's even less information there. What we do know is that our periods and our reproductive health are governed by our hormones, and the hormone cycles don't appear to change in space. So that means that the function of the reproductive organs means menstruation if there's not a pregnancy, or potentially and theoretically, if there was to be conception, it could potentially be normal. But there's a lot of things that we feel need to be protected. So in space, there's a lot of background radiation. So in this background radiation, so a woman on earth, we try not to have a pregnant woman go for an x-ray because the radiation might have an impact on the baby. Now, if we think about a mission to space,

there's background radiation and different types of radiation, and we have no knowledge as to how that would have an impact on the baby. And the last thing we want to do is have a negative impact on an unborn child. So it brings into that a lot of ethical questions as well. So this is why we've not had a pregnancy in space yet. And the work that has been done, to look into pregnancy or carrying a pregnancy or maybe the effects of space on a pregnancy have been done potentially on animal models, but nothing yet on human models. From the animal side of things, we know that the pregnancies can continue. We can deliver, so when we're talking about rodents, we can deliver rodent pups in space.

But there are differences. It takes the same amount of time to deliver a rodent pup in space as it does on Earth, but the female rodent has to have twice as many labour contractions. Now, if anyone's gone through labour, it's quite painful. So it doesn't sound very appealing to have to have twice as much pain for the same outcome. So there is definitely work that needs to be done to understand all of this. I also do think that when we think about reproductive health and how that's affected, we also need to think about the teams of people that we have here on us to support women

when we're going through key times and stages within our reproductive years. So, for example, when a young girl maybe starts her period, she has their support of her, hopefully friends and her family around her. So if children were to start having their periods in space, they may not necessarily have that support network. For example, another example, maybe pregnancy. When women get pregnant here on earth, they have midwives, they have sonographers, they have doctors, there's lots of people to look after them.

we don't have those teams of people so the research into those areas is also really difficult. So in terms of the reproductive health, yes, it may be possible to do these things, but are we there yet? We may not be there to get those exact answers that we're looking for, but as hypotheticals, potentially they could happen. And that's a really difficult area generally, isn't it? I mean, it's hard to imagine how anyone in your field and all the scientists working on related issues complete any of this research, given it so ethically fraught. I mean, how do you get a sample size big enough, not just of women, but also how are people researching kind of embryos and the effects of radiation on embryos

when you can't do that without breaking a kind of ethical code? Absolutely. It's really challenging. And it's really interesting that you bring in a question about sample size. And I was talking to a colleague today, quite often here on Earth, when we're doing research studies, we have sample sizes of six or eight, and we think that that might be representative, but we know that we always caveat that research

by saying we have limited number of samples and we need more work. Space-related research does tend to have the same number of samples, actually, probably six or eight. It just takes a lot longer to gather that data because you're limited by each mission that might happen. So several years ago, we used to have the shuttle, which would take astronauts into space for a short duration of time,

sort of around 7 to 14 days, and that became a lot easier to get research information and data back. Now, most missions are about six months. So when you send one astronaut up, you can get their data, but it's quite some time before you get the next astronaut's data. When it comes to the ethical aspects of it, it's really important to consider the purpose of the research. So if the purpose of the research is to help human beings here on Earth,

which it should be a key end point of any research that we're doing in space, then you have to justify that with the processes that you're taking. And ultimately, all research has to follow all of the ethical codes, whether it's human research or animal. And that doesn't get changed. That respect that we have to give to humans and animals is still exactly the same in space. So that would never change in a space environment. So what do those ethical guidelines allow?

How far can you take the research at this time? time. So what I know is that from a human perspective, there's been limited work when it comes to reproductive health because the sampling of whether it's tissue from the lining of the womb or eggs or from the ovary, it's quite a challenge to get that tissue. And so that's not possible in space. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition. citizens back. This podcast is sponsored by Name, Audio and Focal.

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that makes music feel alive and gives it emotional texture. Today, in partnership with French acoustic specialist focal, name audio creates systems that deliver exceptional sound and unforgettable listening experiences at home. Try it for yourself at a focal powered by name boutique. Visit focal powered by name.com for more information. You spoke before about radiation. And for those who don't know, could you tell us a bit about what the risks of radiation are and what some of the other risks are in space? And is the exposure to radiation in space, how does that compare to an x-ray? So radiation, we all know that radiation, excessive amounts of radiation is bad. And we know that from, for example,

nuclear bombs that have gone off in our history. Radiation has an impact on our genes. so our genetic makeup. So this is the code that determines who we are. And when you have excessive amounts of radiation, it can change that code and it can cause mutations. When you have a fetus or an unborn child, that genetic code is very, very susceptible to radiation. And it's very liable to damage. And so it can lead to differences in how the child may develop. It can lead to differences in the outputs maybe in the future. There's lots of unknown. When we talk about radiation in space, we know that we get radiation from the sun, but there's also background radiation from the solar system, which all has an effect.

And we've got to put all of that together, and the different kinds of radiation have different impacts on our genetic code and on our bodies. Lots of radiation could put us at risk of cancer, so the astronauts are always protected and they've got counters on them so they can count how much radiation they're exposed to. So from a radiation perspective, we know that it can cause lots of damage, we also need to protect against radiation. And the way the astronauts do that in space is they have barriers, physical barriers to the radiation. There's also lots of research happening as to whether we can improve antioxidants within the dietary requirements to improve our ability to combat radiation, but that's research that's happening. But when we think about pregnancies, there really isn't a

barrier. We really want to reduce that impact. When we talk about an x-ray versus a mission to space, definitely a six-month mission to space is not as great as a single x-ray. However, when we're talking about reproduction in space, we're unlikely to be talking about a pregnancy on the International Space Station. We're probably talking about a pregnancy on another planetary body within our solar system, so the moon or Mars, where the person's likely to be there for a longer period of time. Plus, we've got to factor in the travel time. So to get to Mars, we're looking at almost. a year. So it's a lot of radiation if we add it all up. And it's the kind of radiation that we have no idea how it would affect an unborn child. And that's what makes it dangerous. So the way we combat that is we probably need to have better measures to counteract that radiation. And that's what I think the research should be focusing on. When we think about the other environmental impacts or possibilities of harm in the space environment, it is an extreme environment. And it's extreme for a reason. to get into space, there's a huge amount of gravitational load on the body that is short,

but it's got to be there when you go into space and come back from space. Now, I would never send a pregnant woman on a fighter jet plane, for example, where there are increased loads or on a roller coaster where you get that feeling at the pit of your stomach, that you're going down a roller coaster really fast, and that's gravitational load. But if you're exposed to that as a pregnant woman, I would generally say, that I would avoid those sorts of situations. The other impact is the weightlessness of the space environment.

We know that when astronauts go into space, that weightless environment can have an effect on the way the body functions. So lots of people know that astronauts lose bone and muscle when they go into space. But there's also impact on the blood system, on the heart system within the body. And even though the reproductive system isn't changed, the reproductive system also needs all those other systems to work. When women get pregnant, they need an effective blood supply so they can give that blood supply through to the baby

and the baby gets nutrients. But in space, your overall blood volume is reduced. So there's also the question as what would the baby and would the baby get enough nutrients and how would we be feeding the baby? And would that be adequate enough? It's just so many a knows, I think it's all very fascinating to be able to ask these questions

because it may have implications here on Earth as well. It really is fascinating, and it's safe to say, I think, that it feels that some of these incredible unknowns have possibly been overlooked by the billionaires planning to send people to Venus, Mars, the Moon, and I'm sure they haven't been, and I know that there are plenty of people working on this. But how realistic do you think it actually is

to start human colonies extraterraterrally given that there are still so many gaps in our knowledge? I guess I have to answer this very carefully, don't I? Because never say never. But I think if we're talking about space exploration, the reason that it's advanced so much is because of human curiosity. And so I think at some point, and I don't know whether it'll be in my lifetime, but at some point there will be a time point where we have human colonies on other planets or on the moon. I think there's a lot of research that needs to be done to ensure that human beings that do travel to other planets are safe and that we're not putting anyone at risk. There were companies,

private companies previously, that wanted to send human beings on a one-way mission to Mars. And it's very exciting to think about it if we think about the hyped up Hollywood view of going into space. However, the realistic scenario is that there are a lot of dangers and ethically we can't put human beings at harm's way. How realistic is it that a woman might get pregnant in space in the first place? What are the, is it, is it possible to have sex and to conceive and to become pregnant in space at all? So when they've sent rodents into space and mice, it's been possible for them to conceive. If we talk about the physiological processes that are involved, because we know that women can have their periods in space, it's definitely possible for ovulation

to occur. It definitely then means. that the lining of the womb has grown, so it's preparing for pregnancy, and so therefore technically fertilisation might occur as well. Whether that's actually possible, it's a real unknown, because I'm not privy to that information if that sort of research is even happening. I think more so right now there's a focus on how can we keep astronauts healthy, and I think that needs to be a priority first rather than can we have babies in space. But I think the question of babies in space is a real possibility because it appears that the reproductive system doesn't change. Do you think the increase of space tourism and people who are not trained astronauts going into

space might kind of mess with this and impact what we know and don't know just because it's happening without authorization in a way? I think that's a really great question. It's something that I've always asked as well. When we have space tourism, we're not having members of the public who are at the peak of fitness that we do with our astronauts. And so we're going to be sending people into space who are varying levels of health. And who knows if they, dependent on their age, if that would have an impact on their fertility, I'm pretty much guessing that no one would be asking them about their fertility before they go into space. I think what would be really interesting from my perspective, being a researcher, is whether we could use this opportunity with spaceflight

tourism to actually get some answers to these questions. And, you know, if human beings are going to do what human beings do, then actually could we see if that gives us some information that perhaps the space agencies are not allowed to look into? So it's actually quite an opportunity. Do you think that that means that there's a race to do this? Do you think that there are people around the world who may be civilians, but also scientists and also at the nation level, who are wanting this to be the first kind of touchdown in a new space avenue. I feel that reproductive health in space potentially has quite a sexy viewpoint because it could be a baby in space. However, I also feel that reproductive health overall is quite understudied

here on earth. It's quite forgotten. It's underfunded. And I know that with my research here on earth into women's health in sort of heavy periods, that reproductive health doesn't get as much attention as it needs to. So I think as far as a headline-grabbing moment, the first baby in space will be a really big deal. But I feel that there's a lot of funding that's needed in order to get to that point. And I'm not sure reproductive health will get that amount of funding. And I don't mean to be skeptical, but I think this is also a call to say, if we're going to be looking at this area, we also need to be funding reproductive health on Earth and trying to understand actually what's happening in female bodies. There's a lot of talk.

now in the last few years about how medicine related to women is really understudied and we really need to pay attention. And I think this is a good time frame that if we're going to be studying female astronaut health, we really need to be studying women as a whole because we need to know what's in inverted commas normal to know what's going to be changing in the space environment. Yeah, that's an amazing point and really illustrated by the fact that all of this started with all those myths around women's bodies in space. And given that we know, so little about health in space. What's something that you're really excited for humanity to discover or at least start researching? I have a wish list, but that's very, very much a personal wish list.

I've spent the last few years researching the lining of the womb. And the way I got there was the journey via my work with space medicine and the astronauts. So with the female astronauts, I very much looked into how we can stop periods in space. Just a short summary, that's a very quick way in terms of the female astronauts use the contraceptive pill back to back, and within a couple of months their period stop. But it's also because they're really healthy women. And generally they've been screened for any other medical conditions. When I would come back to the clinical settings here in the NHS in the UK,

I had a lot of women coming to gynaecology clinics. suffering with heavy periods. Now, heavy periods affects one in three women. It's really, really common, yet we just have no idea why women are having heavy periods. So there's another area which is the fact that pregnancies are affected by age, and we know the female astronauts are getting older by the time they come back and have their babies. So I think this ties in really beautifully because I think the missing link is the lining of the womb, which is the endometrium. I think my wish list would be to understand the endometrium further, because I think it tells us a whole host of things with regards to reproductive health. So if we can understand what's really making the endometrium,

the lining of the room function here on earth during normal cycles, I think it can really help us understand that third of the female population who are experiencing heavy periods, but a huge number of women who are also not able to get pregnant, and how many lives that affects, and I think it could have a huge impact. So I think that, the opportunities we get with the space environment is actually to challenge the human body, to challenge it in different circumstances. And who knows, that might highlight differences that we could potentially leverage in our research here on Earth. So my wish list would start there, but that's obviously a very personal opinion. So I feel really fortunate to be at this

place and the junction that I'm at the moment. I've done my PhD recently focusing on heavy periods here on Earth, my background in space medicine, and being able to tie that together in my future, I think would be a dream come true. And from your perspective as a doctor, obviously women can give birth and have done throughout humanity's history on their own. But for a lot of women who have given birth, there is a certain degree of comfort and confidence in the medical system that we're really fortunate to have. So how do you foresee that happening in a space environment in the future? I mean, could you be a space GP? So it's a really interesting topic because I always fight to say that, right, there needs to be a gynecologist in space, but I think there are other specialties that probably will get priority like emergency medicine or actually family medicine or GP.

I think doctors who go into space have to be well-rounded. They have to be able to encounter all situations and scenarios. I think it's a long time before we'll get specialists, doctors being represented in space. I don't think being gynaecologist in space is a bad idea. because we have to deal with emergency situations as well as a number of medical and surgical situations in our jobs. And so I do feel that there's also, as I touched upon before, the idea that you need to have a team of people to look after a pregnant woman. I think that's where the comfort comes from, because the NHS is phenomenal. We have all these groups of doctors and allied health professionals

that are looking after our pregnant women. And I think sending all of them up to space is going to be quite impractical. And so you think about the satellite links that we have. and we think about, can we radio down to someone and say, can you help us in this situation? And we think about how that can benefit us. So if we can really make that happen or really make the structure of that happen in space, let's think about our isolated communities here on us. We have a huge number of women that were isolated during the COVID pandemic. And telemedicine really needed to advance. So as a doctor, as obstetricians and gynaecologists,

we were offering antenatal care over video consultations. Now, we know that we know that. that it's important when a woman is pregnant to be able to offer examinations, for example, at certain time points in a pregnancy. But there are time points where you can offer care over a video link or a telephone call. And having that advancement through the COVID pandemic is a great example of what the space medicine field can do in regards to helping humans here on Earth. So I think that it may not happen that we have teams of people going into space to help a pregnant astronaut, for example. But I think the research and the work that's going to be done towards it could really help isolated communities here on Earth and really advance the care that we're able to

give. And might a kind of scientific intervention or a medical intervention like IVF be a good place to start to learn about some of these impacts, but in a more ethically straightforward way? I think any place is a good place to start. I think there's so much research that needs to be done. and however it happens, I think will give us really great insights, provided we use a balanced approach to the work, and it's not single-minded. I think if we are able to do research that looks at all aspects, so if we're looking at IVF, we look at the conception, the physiological processes, the technical advancements that can happen, and who knows if those advancements could help women who can't get pregnant here on earth. And so I think as long as it's balanced,

I think any point is a great point to start. You've been listening to space gynecologist Varsha Jane talking about the future of reproductive medicine in space. Thank you for listening to this episode of Instant Genius, brought to you by the team behind BBC Science Focus magazine. By the latest issue of Science Focus in store, or visit us at sciencefocus.com. This podcast is sponsored by name,

and focal. The texture and emotional depth of music can be lost through digital sources or poor signal. Name Audio believes you can have digital precision with analogue warmth. Alongside French acoustic specialist focal, Name creates high-end audio systems combining innovation with craftsmanship, so you can listen to music, just as the artist intended. Discover more at nameadio.com.