Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - Chris Hadfield: The Apollo MURDERS! (#187)

Starting point is 00:00:00 It's October, Halloween season, and the time is ripe for a murder mystery, murder most foul. Except this one takes place with a special twist. It involves the space program, the Apollo missions, and everyone's favorite space guitarist, Major Tom himself, Commander Chris Hadfield. And this is a phenomenal interview. I know you're going to love it. I know you're going to love this book. It's tough to do an interview about a fiction book without giving away too many.

Starting point is 00:00:30 any spoilers. So I'll just refer you to these quotes from folks like James Cameron and from Greg Hurwitz, author of Orphan X, as well as Andy Weir, past guest on the show, the author of The Martian, an exciting journey into an alternate past. And of course, the quote from our friend James Cameron is not to be missed, a nail-bodied thriller. This is a smash hit from Commander Chris Hadfield. I'm so honored to have him on the show. We talked about his past books, his children's book, his book previously, a non-fiction book, as well as the Apollo murders, which is just a delightful nail-biting thriller appropriate for Halloween season. So sit back, enjoy this blast off to the past, the Apollo programs, to the moon and beyond, and hopefully

Starting point is 00:01:24 solving a nail-biting murder mystery along the way with our friend. Commander Chris Hadfield. Come along. Let's go into the impossible. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Today, it is my great pleasure and honor to be talking to Commander Chris Hadfield, who has written numerous books. We're going to talk about all of them at some point or another, but his latest book is a work of fiction, hard science space fiction.

Starting point is 00:01:53 It's not science fiction, it's hard science and it's fiction, and it's a murder mystery. So this is our first murder mystery, commander. We've had on Andy Weir, who endorsed your beautiful book as well. And it's always a challenge, Commander, as you might realize, when I talk to nonfiction authors, I can talk all day about the book. But when you talk to fiction authors, how do you do it so you don't have any spoilers? And I just want to get one spoiler out of the way. Okay, Luke Skywalker is Princess Leia's brother. Okay, let's just get that totally out of the way, Commander.

Starting point is 00:02:24 Fortunately, that has very little bearing on the Apollo murders. Oh, I must have read the wrong book. So we're talking about the Apollo murders, which is a murder mystery set on Earth in Russia, on the ocean. Yes, there it is. So we're going to do the thing, Chris, that known is expected to ever do, which is to judge a book by its cover. Tell me, Commander, what is the origin of the title and the cover art on this wonderful new book? The origin of the title is, in fact, the origin of the book itself in that a publisher that I'd work with on my previous books, who I really respected and like him as a person, he said, I think you could write a fiction book, and I've got a title, the Apollo murders. What do you think? And it's so defining because Apollo, well, it's got to be, you know, in the late 60s, early 70s, and murder has an S on the end. So there has to be at least two people murdered in the book. So that was very very, very bound setting, very defining of the book itself. But because it's a murder mystery, I wanted the book to look compelling. And space, I've done two spacewalks. The velvety infinite blackness of space itself is so provocative when you're outside on a spacewalk. You swear you could reach out and somehow get some of that eternity onto your hand. And so I wanted the book to reflect the contrast between the surface of the moon and the depth of the blackness, but also the human in the middle.

Starting point is 00:03:56 And the little lunar lander is such a tiny little outpost and representative of the Earth and the background. So when the graphic artists working at, it was our American publisher, came, this is a suggestion. I just thought it had the dripping portent of a murder mystery, but also extremely factually accurate with a small ship. and heading down to the surface of the moon. So I'm really pleased with it, and it just rekindles in my mind's eye what it was like to be outside on a spacewalk in the depths of our solar system itself. So funny, because you mentioned in an interview I watched recently that spaceflight is joyous. Space flight is miraculous. Spaceflight is titillating in the best way, and yet now it's ominous.

Starting point is 00:04:49 It's foreboding. This cover of this book, you know, you built me up that spaceflight is this thing we should all aspire to, like our friend William Shatner will be doing tomorrow. I've had the honor of being in a TV show with him called Unexplained. And I'm wondering, you know, first of all, what makes spaceflight so joyous? You're my fourth, sorry, you're my sixth astronaut that I've interviewed on the End of the Impossible Podcast. You're the second male astronaut. So I've interviewed four, including one, Jessica Maier, Dr. Jessica Maier, while she was on the ISS, your former home.

Starting point is 00:05:19 We're going to talk a lot about that and your five months there sojourn. But what makes spaceflight joyous? I would think it would be a mixture of portent, of fear of this ominous threat of danger outside the few millimeters that separate you from utter death. Well, then you fall victim to the same illusion that so many movie makers do. And even songwriters, you know, where space oddity or rocket man, they're really just metaphors for loneliness. Number one, it's magic. You are weightless. It is just so fun to be weightless.

Starting point is 00:05:57 You have an instantaneous superpower. With just the touch of a toe or a finger, you can fly effortlessly forever. So that's just a hilarious joy. And every time you float past a window or stop and look, the entire world is rolling by in just unbelievable, three-dimensional, multicolored, multi-textured majesty beside you. And it's mesmerizing and silent and unavoidably omnipresent. And so you're seeing and learning and understanding the whole world like the same sort of feel you have for your hometown.

Starting point is 00:06:37 And then the underpinning all of that is you're doing something exquisitely hard, but because of the life's work that brought you there and all the preparation and study and self-change, you're doing it well. And there's a real intoxication in doing something. You know, it's like making that masterful chess move or doing something on a skateboard properly for the first time or whatever. There's a great delight of self-discovery when you have mastered something that previously, you know, like the first time you actually rode a two-wheeler and no one was holding on

Starting point is 00:07:08 to the seat behind you. There's a great freedom and joy to doing something complex and doing it well. And in space, all three of those things are constantly weaving in amongst each other. And you're there with great people, capable people. And so it's a lot of fun. But when you're writing a murder mystery, some of those people have to be not what they seem. And also, you know, Earth politics and Earth military objectives and such. They often, you know, intrude their unwelcome heads into the joyous human experience of being in space.

Starting point is 00:07:41 So it's a really ripe field to write a murder mystery. But at the same time, it gave me a lot of freedom to write about just what it is like at a personal level to be amongst a crew chatting and talking and reveling in the experience itself. Yeah, it seems like from your upbringing, we want to get into that. And one of the things that's most resonant to me in my six interviews now with astronauts is the one kind of medium that they always seem to convey is coachability, which sounds. strange because Dr. Scott Parazinsky, your fellow crewmate, that you were, you know, your famous incident in space, which we're going to get to, your medical incident in space, that he was a part of that experience. He's just an amazing human being, and yet he feels like he has so much to learn still. And it made me think, Commander, have you heard of this notion of the hedonic treadmill?

Starting point is 00:08:35 Have you ever heard that notion, not the space treadmill, but the hedonic treadmill? I don't know those two words next to each other. No. So it's basically like, where do you go from here, Commander? You've done everything you wanted to do since you were nine years old. You've conquered Great Heights. You've been in space where, you know, there are fewer people that have been to space than are in the NBA, basically, right? Fewer that have won the Nobel Prize, et cetera, et cetera. So I want to ask you, where do you go from here?

Starting point is 00:09:01 Is there a chance of a letdown? Because you had that peak experience, the treadmill is just like, where do you go? You can't go anywhere, you know, from my perspective, as a father, as a parent, a scientist as a pilot, I can't think of a better experience. What are you hoping to do next, so to speak? I think you're trying to interpret how my life looks, obviously, from the outside, and not how it looks from the inside. And I see every single day as a peak experience. And, you know, I was in the delivery room as my wife gave birth to each of our three children over the years. And, you know, I'm training a new puppy right now, which is just so much fun. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:41 And, you know, I've in the last year learned how to write a thriller novel. And I got to drive a really high-performance car last week with a super expert and just see what it's like to be a professional race car driver. And all of those to me are just a glimpse into the wonders that constantly surround us. And I've flown in space. So it's not like my life was some humdrum, you know, boring. and all of a sudden I was in space and then I was back again and I was doing it to impress someone or something. It's the opposite. This is just one of the amazing manifestations of opportunity that has come along during my life.

Starting point is 00:10:24 And so many of them have occurred prior to me flying in space and that in between space flights, I served as an astronaut for 21 years. I was only in space for six months. So 20 and a half years of service to allow other people like, like Jessica and other people you mentioned, to succeed and do what we're all trying to do in space, even leading to the tourist flying that's going on right now. And then all the things I've done since then, you know, teaching at university, running a space technology incubator, chair of the board of a lunar settlement and lunar law foundation.

Starting point is 00:11:00 And, you know, working with all sorts of businesses, all of it is of a set piece for me. And there are so many things. I don't know anything about. You know, I'm just a novice at almost everything in the world. I'm really good at a few very specific things. But most of the world, I'm just an infant. And to me, that's how I treat everything. It's how Scott, you know, I think if there was one,

Starting point is 00:11:24 and maybe you've already noticed it speaking to the other five, if there was one defining astronaut characteristic, it's a perpetual dissatisfaction with their level of competence. They don't want to rest in their laurels. They don't want to think, oh, I did one thing. I'm done. You know, it's more like, wow, I've done a thousand things, and they have allowed me to see a million things. So I'm going to keep doing other stuff that opens the world to my understanding and comprehension and appreciation. It's peak pollination season, and my business is scaling fast. To keep the nectar flowing, I need a phone plan with top priority data speed. That's why I chose GoogleFi wireless. My connections stay strong even when the hive is buzzing. Plus, unlimited plans started 33. $5 a month. Now that's a deal that doesn't stay.

Starting point is 00:12:12 Explore GoogleFi Wireless plans today. Plus taxes and government fees. GoogleFi Wireless is not subject to data traffic deprioritization during times of high network usage. I guess, yeah, the question of how to top it was answered by Apollo commander Neil Armstrong. Do you know what he did after he got out of the NASA service business commander? He did a lot of different things. He was a professor and he ran a few businesses. and he worked with a lot of students, and, you know, Neil did a lot of things and the rest of the time.

Starting point is 00:12:44 That's why I always say I have the best job in the world because it's the job that Neil Armstrong thought was only possible to top being the first human on the moon. I did talk to Nicole Stott last week. Her book is coming out tomorrow. She sends regards. She wants your book to be number one in fiction and hers to be number one in nonfiction, and I hope that will be the case. I have a book just right over here, in fact, yeah. Yeah, she is an amazing soul. She's a two-time. guest on the show. And she told me she never feared really for herself. She feared for her son. She has just one child and she was multiple times in space on the space station, etc. You talk a lot about fear being kind of a product, a byproduct of irrationality of not going

Starting point is 00:13:29 through in a logical, rational way. And yet you must recognize you phone and combat missions. There are people that, you know, would come after, are still alive, hopefully, and that will be live for a very long time. Did you ever have any fear like she did in terms of not yourself, but for other people that would have to grapple with some decisions that you made? Something I learned from my wife many, many years ago was that if you allow your fears to restrict the choices and activities of the people that are important to you, that has negative consequences. You know, if you say, no, you can't do that thing that's really important to you because I'm afraid of it or because if it doesn't go the way you want, then it might,

Starting point is 00:14:16 you know, might have negative consequences for me. You know, everything has to be within reason, but at the same time, denying someone else their dreams, that has a cost. And so if Nicole, for example, had said, well, Chris and I are raising Roman now and therefore I'm going to give up on 80% of the things that I wanted to do with my life, I mean, it would take a pretty superhuman set of values to not then recriminate to some degree or begrudge. And it's okay when things are going well, but if things don't go well, you know, how do you balance all that out? And so what my wife, Helena and I have done, and we've been together since high school. We met in a high school play. I met her when she was 14 and I was just 16.

Starting point is 00:15:02 is support each other's dreams and enable them wherever we can. You know, I was in a government employee for 35 years, so we never had much financial freedom. But always, wherever possible, and it's never going to be perfect, but allow the other person to pursue the things that are really important to them. Otherwise, you are the part of life that is the millstone or the obstacle. to do what's really important to them. And so, yeah, and it switches your role around.

Starting point is 00:15:38 So, yes, what I really want to do has risk. Everything worth doing in life has risk, whether it's psychological, financial, reputational, or life or limb. The real question is, how do you decide which risks are worth taking? And then once you've decided this, yeah, I know there's risk, but getting married or learning to drive a bike, or flying a rocket ship or climbing Everest or becoming a professional artist. Yeah, there's a big chance of failing at all those things.

Starting point is 00:16:10 But it's important enough to me, that's something I'm going to do. Then your job now is a risk manager. Your job is not to hope or to rub your rabbit's foot or something. Your job now is to, on behalf of yourself and the program and your loved ones, is to do this thing as well as you possibly can. so that you have optimized your chances to succeed as best that you can. And to me, that's the very essence of personal commitment to it, but also of how to maintain that relationship with the people that are around you

Starting point is 00:16:45 and that are important to you. So this book, The Apollo Murders, covers a fictitious mission that could have happened if it wasn't canceled for budgetary overrun. You know, it's funny, Commander, as I'm sure you know, the budget for NASA is lower than the U.S. spends on lipstick every year. Not to say lipstick is invaluable, right? But to think about canceling it, you know, when we're talking about trillions of dollars kicked around like they're, you know, like they're almost nothing, it was canceled for lack of funding. To what extent do you think if the mission

Starting point is 00:17:14 had taken place that we, the incremental cost, in other words, you know, what is the return on investment or what was return on investment of the Apollo missions after the first few, as we know, we're quite captivating for the public. But after that, it seemed like the public lost a little interest. say Apollo 18 or Apollo 19 or Apollo 20 and 21 were canceled for lack of funds is incorrect. They were canceled for lack of political will. Obviously, the money was there. They just decided, no, I will spend it on something else instead of this.

Starting point is 00:17:45 You know, look at what the DOD's budget is, you know, compared to what it actually costs. So benefit, I think that's really worth talking about. In the 10 years after the Apollo program, there were more PhDs per capita in the U.S. than any time before, anytime since. Yes. People saw themselves differently as a result of what the example that the Apollo program set. We also learned the fundamental history of the Earth itself. Where did the moon come from and when?

Starting point is 00:18:16 And how does a system like this even work? You know, just the straight self-awareness of our own history and therefore being able to propagate that out into the future. The picture that Bill Anders took around Christmas of 68 and on Apollo 8, and they have a lovely logo for their flight, because it's circle around the earth, circle around the moon and come back. It makes this lovely figure 8. But as he was coming around the back, or the infinity symbol, yeah, as he was coming around the back side of the moon, and he grabbed his Hasselblad and took a picture of the Earth. popping into view. That's the first time humanity had ever seen their whole planet in proportion as one little unbelievably rare and precious blue jewel in an eternity of empty blackness. And that sparked a huge revelation of self-awareness, how finite it is. The Earth is just a spaceship.

Starting point is 00:19:20 The whole Earth catalog and Greenpeace and the Earth, you know, sustainability and, all of those ideas, birthday, right. All of those ideas were the child of our capability to change our perspective. If you're an aunt, you know, a little A-N-T-A-N-T, and somewhere on a hillside in San Diego, your world is very small, you know, but it's really important to you. But your actions are local at best and tiny.

Starting point is 00:19:51 But human beings can become, because of our collective decision-making, so much more influential than ants and so much more future shaping than ants. But if all we ever think about is our particular little ant hill and the tiny, you know, how tall are you, you know, two meters tall, you know, the tiny amount of the world that you can see from two meters above the surface, if that's limits your thinking, then it's going to radically limit your ability to make good to decisions about the future. And what travel to space, whether it's robotic with all of the sensors that we have up now, they're measuring and teaching us about the world and communicating, or whether it's just the straight human perception of our world and the reality of it, to me, and what we

Starting point is 00:20:43 learned about our own planet, the ecology of it, how it actually functions as a system, how does it react with the energy from the sun? What is the balance of energy in and energy out? and why do we still have an atmosphere when Mars is mostly gone and Venus boils it above the temperature of lead? Just trying to get an accurate picture of ourselves. To me, that, sure, there's lots of technical stuff, you know, integrated circuitry and what has led to GPS and all the other things we take for granted. But to me, self-awareness and understanding to a slightly better degree, our place in history and our place in the universe, That's the real lasting legacy of the Apollo program. And indeed, Edgar Mitchell, I think was the Apollo 16.

Starting point is 00:21:29 He had this famous quote. He said, you develop an instant global consciousness. He's talking about the Earthrise photo that you mentioned. An intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world and a compulsion to do something about it. From out there on the moon, international politics looks so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter million miles out and say, look at that, you son of a beep! But,

Starting point is 00:21:53 but commander, if we need to take a politician out there, I mean, how many people, yeah, now there's, you know, commercial civilians are going, William Shatner's going up today. And I wonder if that quote kind of depressed me, because to think that you have to, you can't visualize it, you actually have to physically go there, come on. I mean, what hope is there for humanity

Starting point is 00:22:14 if the only way to get traction to get buy-in is to actually experience what you and so few have experienced. If you're willing to blame the ills of the world on the current elected crop of politicians, you will never solve anything. And think how bad the last politicians were, or the ones before that, or the ones before that, or all the way back to, you know, George Washington, who's now, you know, either a hero or a scapegoat, depending on what you want to blame for events in history.

Starting point is 00:22:46 You know, people are hugely imperfect. And our elected officials, they're just a often well-minded but slightly narcissistic subset of the rest of society. And it's really nice and convenient to blame someone else because it absolves you of responsibility. What is necessary in changing the world is for individuals to put responsibility on their shoulders. In reality, our political leadership is a reflection of our electoral process and therefore of our individual. will. That's the beauty of democracy. And in fact, I lived in Russia for five years. The leadership that they have isn't there because it was a military junta that did a coup and arrested control of the country. No, that's kind of according to that type of culture and the thousand-year history

Starting point is 00:23:37 of what was, you know, Rus tribes and Trier tribes in the Soviet Union and Russia. That's the type of leadership that they think suits them. So if we want to change the world, it has to be, at the individual awareness level. And sure, you've got to work the short-term stuff and you've got to work the process and you've got to work regulation and if we're going to truly deal with the pollution that is changing

Starting point is 00:24:00 the climate of the planet, then you can't just wait 50 years. But at the same time, it's so easy just to sit at the bar like in Cheers and Norm just or whomever, just or probably I think the bar characters in the Simpsons

Starting point is 00:24:17 are more representative. All you do is gross about the world. And then blame it on whatever, big pharma, big business politicians. And then you can just do whatever you want because it's not your responsibility. And so when Ed Mitchell was saying those things, he's trying to make a point. But the reality of it is our world is so unbelievably generous and tough as nails. When I was on board the space station for half a year, think what happens in half a year. You go from one side of the sun to the other. You go halfway

Starting point is 00:24:54 around our solar system. And in that time, I got to watch winter and summer swap ends on the world. I got to watch the world take essentially. It occurred to me at the time. It took a breath out of four and a half billion breaths. And that was so optimism building for me, how incredibly tough this planet is. And the fact to know that life, we found fossils, from almost four billion years ago here in Canada and down on the northern shores of Australia. Life has been on this planet uninterrupted for four of the four and a half billion years. So the earth is tough and life is tenacious. We talk about, oh, we're destroying the earth.

Starting point is 00:25:34 We couldn't kill all the earth, all the life on earth if we give it our absolute best shot. Light has withstood so much worse than us. That's right. But quality of life and improved quality of life for our species and a sense of responsibility for the sustainability of all life on the earth. That is something that we can put on our own shoulders. And that is our real objective. And that's what everybody needs to pay attention to. And sure, you can wrestle some current elected official out there, but they're just on a two-year term or a four-year term. And then they've got their own problems. It's really up to each of us with our

Starting point is 00:26:11 improved self-awareness. And that's why I think it's kind of cool that this summer for the very first time. And it's hugely imperfect at this point. But tourists are starting to see space. You know, we've got the completely all messed up right now, and it's still really early days. But it's the start of something really significant. And we need that perspective to influence our thinking, individually and collectively. Absolutely. So, a reminder, we're talking with Commander Chris Hadfield, famous for many, many things and deservedly so.

Starting point is 00:26:42 But this time, author of The Apollo Murders, Doing the Impossible. Into the Impossible. We'll get to Sir Arthur C. Clark's influence on Commander Hatfield in just a bit. But I want to point out that I was incredibly impressed by all the hard science of this work of fiction. Again, it's not science fiction. It's science fact, but with a fictional twist that most of the characters in this book took place. And actually, Chris, you might be pleased to learn the Lunachad, which plays a role in Apollo murders, was discovered by my colleague, Professor Tom Murphy, who bounces lasers off from New Mexico to the moon, surface to the retroreflectors left by your colleagues, your predecessors, and also the Lunacod rover. And so a lot of excitement was found. He's trying to measure the distance to the moon to one millimeter accuracy to test Einstein's theory of general relativity. But anyway, this is

Starting point is 00:27:32 really hard science. So you into great detail, not only in the characters, you know, the more famous ones, but I couldn't believe that, you know, some of the characters were actually real people. I mean, I'm a space geek and so forth. But that you got down to the, you know, the exact caliber of the pistols that the Soviets would carry, I want to mention something that I find resonant between you and Dr. Scott Parasinski, which is that you both credit the Apollo program for your dedication, devotion, and love of space, and desire to become an astronaut, overcoming just literally astronomical odds. The Apollo missions had a plaque, at least the first one did, that said,

Starting point is 00:28:11 we came in peace for all mankind. Now, again, this is a murder mystery set in, and I don't want to make it out. out that, you know, who's the villain? We're not going to spoil anything. But do you think they really achieved that, or was this kind of a way of you kind of working through fan fiction? What really was the underlying tenor of that time? It wasn't all about peace and love of all mankind. It was about global domination and showing technological prowess. And the Russians did a great job and the U.S. did a better job. But talk about that. How influential was getting the politics and the emotions, the environment of that time, it was so gripping to me. And I wasn't

Starting point is 00:28:50 that old. I was only, you know, three years old when this book takes place. How did you work on that? Was that visceral to you because you remembered it? Or did you have to do a lot more kind of historical, political, global geopolitics research than you might have expected? I love learning things and I love researching things. And so in writing the Apollo murders, I dug so deeply into the Apollo program, the NASA space program, but also the Soviet space program at the time. And the things that were actually going on, you know, the secret Soviet space station that was spying on the world that no one knew about at the time, at least on this side of the Atlantic, and how that was discovered. And as you say, I would say 90% of the things that happened in the Apollo murders are really. real. And over half of my characters are real people. So that made it so much fun to write and interweave.

Starting point is 00:29:46 But that space station, which was called Diamond in Russian, that's Almaz, Almaz mysteriously malfunctioned and came apart in the spring of 73. And Lunahua, that you mentioned, the Soviet rover that was investigating things on the moon, it mysteriously malfunctioned and died on the surface of the moon in the spring of 73. So when I was putting it, together the plot, I was thinking, wow, these two real-world events provide a lovely framework for maybe a potential idea of how I could put this together. And the huge Soviet geopolitical frustration with their inability after having had won the race to space with Sputnik. And then the first human being in space with Kigarren. First woman in space with Valentina Tirochkova.

Starting point is 00:30:31 The first spacewalk with Alexa Leonev, they were off to a flying head start, but their rockets weren't good enough. And the N-1 rocket was this huge cash cow that was never going to work on the frustration of the competing camps. That's a really interesting story. And my character, the main character in there, Chella Mae, that's a real guy who was the competing camp. And if he'd been allowed to make the decisions, then the Soviets may have won the race to the moon. And I knew Alexei Leonov really well. He was their designated Neil Armstrong. He was the one that was going to walk on the moon.

Starting point is 00:31:04 I've been inside the landing ship that he was. was supposed to pile it down to the surface if they just could have got their rocket right. And what was going on within American politics, you may or may not know, but Brian, when the space shuttle under Nixon was being funded in its early days, Nixon had, you know, with Watergate and with winding down of the Vietnam War, obviously he wanted to put budgets somewhere else. And he didn't have enough budget for the space shuttle. So he gave a bunch of the decision on authority to the Department of Defense, to the U.S. Air Force. And they got to design a large part of the space shuttle. And the design profile, and the papers were just declassified very recently,

Starting point is 00:31:49 the design profile of the shuttle was to launch out of California towards the North Pole, open the payload bay doors, do a fast spacewalk, grab a Soviet satellite, you know, a spy one, plunk it inside, close the doors, and land all in a hundred minutes. That was a design criteria for the space shuttle. And so when you look at the, when you look at the Apollo murders, I think it becomes a lot more credible how Nixon decided to fund Apollo 18 and what the mission design of Apollo 18 would have been. And, you know, James Cameron wrote a lovely thing on the back, but he said, a desperate Apollo mission that never really happened or did it. And I love that Jim wrote that because he loves this book.

Starting point is 00:32:38 And had a couple really good ideas when I was talking to him. He had a couple clever tiny little plot tweaks that improved book last spring. So yeah, interweaving it with reality for me. You're right. It's not science fiction. It's alternative history fiction with just what might have happened. I love it. It reminded me a totally different genre, but

Starting point is 00:33:02 Kim Stanley Robinson is a UCSD grant. He has a book called Galileo's Dream, which is also like an alternative history and things that happened to Galileo and his time travel, etc. But this book, the viewers, Apollo Murders, is chock full of really just stuff to geek out on.

Starting point is 00:33:19 I just loved it. So it reminded me of Andy Weir's the Martian, you know, another UCSD. He didn't graduate though. He dropped out. But I think he's going to have a decent career, Chris. Yeah, I love I love Andy and, you know, a couple things about Andy. I was lucky enough to read an early version of The Martian and make a recommendation on the cover of that one. And so it's nice that Andy, you know, quit for...

Starting point is 00:33:40 Return the favorite. And I really like his new book, Project Hail Mary. It's a great fun read. And in fact, the narrator for Project Hill Mary, Ray Porter, is also the narrator for the Apollo murders. And he does it so well. And you're going to love a couple details that Ray Porter snuck in that could only be sort of visible or audible when you listen to it because they didn't end up in the way that I wrote it. So that's a really nice surprise.

Starting point is 00:34:07 The other thing about Andy Weir, he's such a sweet and thoughtful and not astronaut kind of guy at all. You know, when he was coming to the Johnson Space Center for the first time, he actually considered, did he have to fly because he was quite afraid to fly? He was going to take the bus or the train all the way from California to Houston just so he could avoid the risk and the fear of flying. And yet he writes such a beautiful, insightful book like the Martian. It's amazing that you mentioned that. Big respect for Andy. Yeah, he was on the show to promote Project Hell Mary and we're friends, you know, from UCSD connections.

Starting point is 00:34:45 But he admitted that during that time when he was invited to Houston, he went to see us a therapist. And on the show, I'm not telling stuff, you know, secretive. But he said, the therapist said, I'll give you some pills. you know, so you can Xanax or whatever, so you can take the flight, but you have to deal with your crippling depression when you get back. And it was so vulnerable and so on it. He just went into, like I had this tremendous depression for many years. And conquering that was kind of the key to getting over fears of flying and other fears that manifested himself in other ways. I love that this book, Apollo Murders, gets into the personal lives, to the psychodrama that's taking place when you go through an astronaut-type program. It's very challenging to talk about a work of fiction.

Starting point is 00:35:28 But I'll just say, if you love The Martian, if you love Project Hail Mary, and all my listeners do, you have to get the Apollo markers. I listened to the audiobook. I got an advanced copy of the written book. Get them all. Get all versions that you can possibly get and support the commander. Because this particular work, I think, in my mind, it left a little bit opening to maybe a sequel. I don't know. Maybe not.

Starting point is 00:35:51 Maybe I'm just crazy. But you should know that there's an astronomy fiction work that I'm working. on, which is, I don't know if you know it, but the James Webb Space Telescope, the successor to Hubble, is going to be shipped from, to eventually go around to be launched, you know, in the coming months. And it's the most expensive thing ever to be shipped. And I don't think it's, you know, it's $7 billion, just the hardware, and it's a $30 billion project. But I don't think it's being guarded by like an aircraft strike, you know, group or whatever. So I think that would be kind of like space pirates, but on sea. Anyway, I don't need to give you ideas. I want to ask you

Starting point is 00:36:25 something. Let me just say that in answer to your question, I'm already working on the next book in the series. So yeah. Is there going to be a movie, commander? Lots of movie houses have come and talk to us already. But the last thing I want is another bad space movie with this time, though, with my name on it. So I'm in no hurry to make a bad space movie. If we're going to make this into a movie, I want it to be one that I can be proud of. You don't want it to be Armageddon, too, Commander? Or space cowboys or gravity or something. I wanted to be more like from the Earth to the Moon or Apollo 13, where they really worked hard to, you know, to tie it to reality so that you don't just insult and belittle and sort of puzzle people with what you didn't bother even researching. I want to ask you, I want to be respectful of your time, but I'll take all I can get from you, sir.

Starting point is 00:37:18 But in your memoir and Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth, you talk about the stress that you endured going through all these psychics. psychological exams and so forth. And one phrase really stood out to me. You said, how can I stand out, yet not be a jerk? What do you mean by that, commander? When you go through astronaut selection, right now in the American and the European astronaut selections, on the order of 20 or 30,000 people are applying for a handful of jobs. So if you're going to get hired, you have to stand out. I mean, what is remarkable about you? Because if you're unremarkable, then you're not going to get picked. And obviously, you need to have qualifications.

Starting point is 00:38:01 But even if you say, okay, they have to speak three languages, they have to have at least a master's degree, and they have to have a thousand hours piloting command of an airplane. Well, out of 30,000 people, that's still going to be 500 people. And they're, you know, so how do you stand out? And obviously, one way is to make a big noise about yourself. you know, and, you know, trumpet yourself and promote yourself. And that's not a very Canadian thing to do, but also I think it's a self-defeating thing to do. You don't want someone on a space station who needs to trumpet themselves.

Starting point is 00:38:42 In fact, it's the opposite that you want. You want someone whose entire purpose is to make everybody else their best. someone who's got both the competence and the confidence to put themselves into that position. So it's quite a strange role to be competing for the job of an astronaut when it's maybe against your nature to be like blowing your own horn. And so I thought about it every day. I just decided, okay, I'm going to be myself. I'm obviously going to mention all of the strengths and all the things that I've done

Starting point is 00:39:15 just so that they don't inadvertently not know that, you know, I used to be a downhill ski racer or whatever in case that helps them with their decision-making. But I want them to have a frank, accurate assessment of my own skills and not just some overblown, you know, Tinder version of who I am. So, yeah, it was a bit of a tightrope to walk. And it lasted for months and months and months. And there was no feedback. And I just felt like I was just so out of control and crossing my fingers and hoping. And it was an enormous relief when the phone on the wall rang and the president of the space agency called and said, would you still like to be an astronaut?

Starting point is 00:39:56 Because that was a watershed moment after all of that lifetime of preparation and then nerve-wracking hand-wraining, waiting. Okay. So let's see. I have several more questions if you'll indulge me, but I want to be respectful of your time. Sure, let's go with rapid-fire answers then. How about that? rapid fire. Do astronauts or did the Apollo astronauts carry suicide options with them? Everybody always has suicide options with them. You have them right now. Not specifically. That's way down the list of concerns. Do you still think 2001, by the namesake of the center that I am honored to be associate co-director of Arthur C. Clark, do you think that is still your favorite pick for Best Movie of All Time, Space Movie of All Time? Absolutely. It is so thought-provoking and so much deeper than just a space movie and based on a great book and Kubrick's cinematography. Great movie. You should watch it, you know, on a repeated basis throughout your life.

Starting point is 00:40:56 I presume you are not Jewish as I am. Is that correct, Commander? I'm not Jewish, although, as you probably notice, the protagonist of the Apollo murders comes from a Lithuanian Jewish family. Yes. Who was your consultant? How did you happen to know about? about Litvak as a term, which 99% of Jews don't know, Litvak and of Jewish origin. How did you come to find that? Well, the Internet is a tremendous resource. I'm an intensely curious guy. I wanted a protagonist who had layers and was complex and interesting.

Starting point is 00:41:28 And I know a lot of people, you know, that I know people of many faiths and people of great technical capability that can always just text her phone. So, but yeah, it made Kaz Zemeckis, I think. a more nuanced and interesting individual. And obviously, he's, if there is going to be a series, and that's what I'm working on, you know, Kaz, he needed to have a lot more depth than just being a guy out of spaceflight. I loved it.

Starting point is 00:41:56 That was a nice little treat for people like me. Next up, you call courtesy, one of the greatest skills or traits in a good astronaut has in your memoir, Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth. What do you mean by that? Why should you be courteous? You guys are, you know, a team highly oiled machine. I've seen Michael Jordan, you know, scream at Scotty Pippen more times than I can imagine.

Starting point is 00:42:20 So what does courtesy mean in the context of being an astronaut? Courtesy means putting someone else's needs ahead of your own. By definition, you've done that because if you are in service of the space agency, or like a lot of my generation of astronauts, in service of your country for years before that, where you have said, I am willing to die for the things that we collectively believe in. That is the most courteous thing I think you could ever say. Imagine if you walked up to someone who is facing extreme danger and you said, I am willing to die in your place.

Starting point is 00:42:59 That's courteous courtesy, but it's at its absolute end limit. And when you're on board a spaceship, putting everyone else's needs ahead of your own, the eating last, taking care of the stuff that's important to you last, making sure that you are as productive a team as possible. I mean, there are times where you have to have a completely vertical command structure, you know, where things are going bad in a hurry. I'm the boss. We're all doing this right now. I don't care when nobody thinks. But hardly ever is the spaceship on fire, you know. And so the vast majority of the time, thoughtfulness and courtesy and other people's needs, that's the way to build a successful team and a successful crew of space explorers and a successful, I think, mission through life.

Starting point is 00:43:47 You're a pilot. You're an aviator. John and Martha King live here in San Diego, famous educators. They talk about once you become a pilot, you're always a pilot. There's a lot of aviation geeking out stuff in this wonderful book, The Apollo Murders. What's in your dream hangar, commander? I've been lucky enough to fly probably 100 different types of airplanes. Some of them where I got fully piloting command, I've been fortunate to fly the most powerful, capable airplanes, the biggest, C5, C-141, F-747, and down to single-seat gliders. But I think probably my dream hanger has an F-86 saber and the Mark 6 with the leading-edge slats and the big Arenda engine, because that was a wonderful expression of human freedom in three dimensions. another airplane that I've flown, which is a spitfire. And I've flown a spitfire a bunch now, too. And that's just an amazing design, especially when you consider that it was designed in the 1930s. You know, look at what cars were like. And you have that beautiful piece of machinery with that magnificent Rosemois, Roseroys Merlin engine. But if it's my dream hanger, then I would also like,

Starting point is 00:45:02 let's see, I think a starship would be nice. Elon Musk's new vehicle. If I'm allowed to dream for this hangar, I want a ship that has the 100% reusable capability to take us not just to orbit, but to the moon and back. And we're right in the cusp of proving that vehicle right now. So yeah, I'll take those three for a start. I'm hoping my past guest, Jessica, my ear might set foot on the moon and be the first woman to leave her footprints there. Last rapid fire question, if you could be the first astronaut to go to Mars, would that be on the table for you? Well, sure, but astronauts don't just go, right? You know, it's sort of like if you're a pilot, that's not just a job.

Starting point is 00:45:45 If you're sitting next to someone on the bus or whatever on the subway, and you're just having a conversation and someone says, oh, what do you do? I said, oh, I was an astronaut. All normal conversations ceases from that on because you aren't just an astronaut, not nine to five or something. That's what you are for life. It took decades of your life in order to qualify. And I don't mean like just a tourist going for a ride,

Starting point is 00:46:10 but where it's your profession, where you've put in the work and earn the accolades. To me, that is an amazing, complicated, and definitive part of it. And so to be that astronaut to me is, and to recognize that that's what you are for life. I think, you know, that's the reality of it. Past guest, Lord Martin Rees says when he wants to talk to someone on an airplane and they ask him what he does, he says, I'm an astronomer. When he doesn't want to talk to them, he says, I'm a mathematician.

Starting point is 00:46:44 So you could add, you know, you could add lunar geology specialist if you don't want to talk to somebody. Okay, final three questions, Commander, if you'll indulge me at my forbearance here. what would you put when you reach, as you know, being an expert in Lithuanian Judaism, when you reach the biblical age that Moses reached of 120 years, what do you want to leave in your ethical will, not your material will? What do you want to leave to the millions of people who are ideologically going to be influenced to you by you? What wisdom or learnings based on your sojourn on planet Earth would you bequeath? I think the absolute necessity to be grateful.

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Starting point is 00:47:51 to recognize you didn't give birth to yourself. You didn't suckle yourself. You didn't educate yourself. You didn't build the system that exists around. You didn't build this planet. You are the lucky recipient of an inconceivably long chain of history that went before you. And you're only here for four score in ten or whatever your particular lifespan is going to be. And stop getting so overwhelmed by your own sense of importance that you're only here for four score in 10 or whatever your particular lifespan is going to be. And stop getting so overwhelmed by your own sense of importance that you're you can hold up a sign that says, the Earth is ending or like people have been doing forever, just to try and feel slightly more significant. Have some grace and have some gratitude for all that have gone before. Respect them. And with that, honor them. Wonderful. Second question, harkening back to Arthur C. Clark's 2001, there are these monoliths that appear in the opening scene.

Starting point is 00:48:46 These primates are hitting it with a bone, and then later it's in space on the moon. It might represent, Clark wasn't clear if it's a time capsule, if it's a warning, if it's a token of our existence or an alien species existence. First of all, rapid fire, you believe alien, intelligent aliens exist, Commander? The odds are overwhelming that we're not alone, but we have zero evidence of life anywhere besides Earth. So it doesn't matter what I believe, but the odds are overwhelming that we're not alone. We just haven't found any evidence yet. You talk about the harsh climates on the moon surface, not climate, you talk about the harsh environment, the moon surface in this novel. Talk about what you would put on a monolith guaranteed to last for

Starting point is 00:49:25 a billion years or more. Well, I think I'd want to know people to know where we were in our journey of self-discovery and technological capability. And I'd also want it to maybe, if they hadn't come across it, to be something they could use. So I think I would put on our latest plans for what a fusion reactor how that would work, where you can generate power in basically in an unlimited way in a non-polluting way. That is going to be such an incredible change to life on Earth when we get a fusion reactor working. And so, and if we'd had that 500 years ago, at any time in human history, it would have been revelationary. It would have avoided, you know, so much of the energy-driven problems that we face right now. So I think I would put all of the plans we have right now, the best

Starting point is 00:50:18 once possible for fusion reactors. I think that would be a useful eternal gift. Not fission? Because I heard there's some radioactive material on the moon surface. We were not going to get into that. Or on Mars, perhaps. You mentioned Mars as well. Last question, Commander. Now we're going to go backwards in time. We've gone forwards in time, 120 years and a billion years. Last question involves Sir Arthur C. Clark's so-called third law. He said, the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. And that's the name of this podcast. I want to ask you, what mysterious aspect of life perplexed you or maybe stymied you as a 20-year-old? And that now you'd give him the advice to help him have the courage to do as you've

Starting point is 00:51:03 done to go into the impossible. What advice would you give to your former self? First off, I got to spend a day with Arthur C. Clark as his personal guide at the Kennedy Space Center. I took him out to the launch pad. We stood underneath one of the space shuttles that was pointed at the universe, and I got to trade not just my own accolades for him, but some of his personal stories of why he made certain decisions in his life. And it was one of my treasured days. It was such a creative writer, but also a scientific force of a guy. But I think the puzzlement over what is death? What does it mean? And it can be so fear-induced. And my best, I've come from a violent professions as a fighter pilot, as a test pilot.

Starting point is 00:51:50 Test pilots die all the time. We just expect it in society. There are some roles that have a high fatality, high mortality rate. And then many of my astronaut friends have died pursuing what they thought was important. And early on, death terrified me and overwhelmed me. And my best friend died in a flying an F-18 on squadron. I did everything I could think of to try and find ways to come to terms with it. But eventually, obviously, I never solved it, but I did find ways to come to terms with it personally.

Starting point is 00:52:22 And it's not scar tissue, but it's sort of like that, you know, where you've been deeply wounded, but you're still alive. And your body develops sort of healing around it. And when it happens the next time, it's not any less poignant. You just have a slightly improved way to deal with it. And it allowed me to readdress life, I think. What should I prioritize? You know, life can be so unforgivingly short. So live your life accordingly.

Starting point is 00:52:52 But hopefully there's a pretty good chance I'll make it all the way up to 90 or 100 and live my life accordingly as well. And honor the memory of so many of my friends that died young in pursuit of the things that I've been pursuing and that they found worthwhile. You know, those folks, if I have any regrets in life or any things that I miss, it's them because they didn't get to live the full life that they deserve. And so I try and lead my life both recognizing that it is finite, and that's okay, but also to honor the men and women that didn't get to lead a full life. To me, that's a really important eternal lesson.

Starting point is 00:53:31 And it drives so much of human behavior is that fundamental unspoken fear of death and how we all manifest our activities to deal with it. It's one worth confronting as early as possible in your life so that then you can live. lead the rest of your life with grace. Commander, thank you for being so honest and vulnerable and just a delight to talk to your hero of many of us here. Happy Thanksgiving to you up there in the 51st state. Just kidding. Just kidding.

Starting point is 00:53:59 We love Canadians. And it's been just a true honor to discuss this wonderful book here in the States. It'll be Halloween soon. So the Apollo murders. Hold it up. Hold it up if you would. Get a copy. You will not regret it.

Starting point is 00:54:12 You won't be able to put it down. or as I found, I had to listen to it over and over again. The audiobook, again, is just a work of art, as is the book. I can't wait for the sequel. If there is a sequel, I hope you'll come back on the show. Commander Chris Hadfield, the one and only, the Space Odyssey. Did you ever, Audity, did you ever meet David Bowie? Last quick question.

Starting point is 00:54:30 Yeah, we chatted back and forth. I never met him in person, unfortunately. Although I have toured with his band and performed in multiple cities. And maybe when COVID truly settles down, I'll have a chance to tour with Bowie's band some more. And that's great because it's like the people that loved him, his family of 40 years. So I got to know him a little bit. And every interaction with him was just as good as you'd hoped it would be. David Bowie's Squadron, that would be wonderful.

Starting point is 00:54:55 Commander, thank you so much. Sorry we went over, but it was too delightful to resist. Have a wonderful day, and best of luck with your wonderful book, sir. Take care and lovely to speak with you. Thanks. And everybody, enjoy the Apollo murders. Enjoy it, you will. Any sufficiently advanced technology,

Starting point is 00:55:11 is indistinguishable from magic. Please support the show by rating, commenting, sharing, and leaving reviews. We appreciate hearing from you, and it really helps keep our universe expanding. Watch our YouTube channel at Dr. Brian Keating. That's DR. Brian Keating, and join our premieres Tuesdays in 8.m. Pacific Time.

Starting point is 00:55:40 Follow Brian on Twitter and Medium and support us on Patreon at Dr. Brian Keating. For exclusive content, visit Brian Keating's website and sign up for his informative newsletter at Brian Keating. Into the Impossible is produced with the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination in the Division of Physical Sciences at the University of California, San Diego. Produced by Stuart Volko and Brian Keating.

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Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - Chris Hadfield: The Apollo MURDERS! (#187)

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