Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - JOANN ROBERTS Poetry for Physicists (#200)

Starting point is 00:00:02 Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Into the Impossible podcast featuring myself, Brian Keating, and someone I've known for over a year, and I've been trying so desperately to get on the podcast because she shares so many interests with me. She's got the three P's. She's got the three P's. She's got my interest in poetry, physics, and she's a pilot. And we're going to talk about all those things today and what makes her tick. It's Joanne Roberts. But we're going to call her paradigm, a fourth P in the universe.

Starting point is 00:00:48 And that goes along with polarization, which is how I came to meet her through the Simon's Observatory program that she participated in last summer. Joanne, how are you doing? Welcome to the West Coast. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I love California. I'm doing quite well. Not so great with the wildfire season, but, you know, hoping it gets better as the years come.

Starting point is 00:01:09 Let me read Paradigm's biography. She's a native of the universe. Paradigm, Joanne Roberts, the Jovian. That I want to get into as well. How many nicknames can we get into? She was born and raised in Chicago. She's a poet and MC, musician and producer. I just had on Stefan Alexander, was the president of the National Society of Black Fethicist, is still.

Starting point is 00:01:31 And his book, Fear of a Black Universe was, endorsed by none other than Chuck D, a public enemy, and your book is endorsed by none other than Cornell West. It's that Sister Joanne will cause trouble in the corporate world. She knows and speaks the truth. So she obtained a bachelors of science and engineering physics with a philosophy minor at Chicago State University, and she earned her private pilot license at SIU, Southern Illinois, carbon dam.

Starting point is 00:02:01 And she's now an astrophysics in the UC system. So we're in the same university. So Paradigm, we always start off. Every author that comes on the show has to confront the advice that you're given to never judge a book by its cover. But I want to ask you, since a lot of my listenership may not know about you, how did you get the name of this wonderful new book of poems called Continuum? And how did you come up with the cover art or the cover design? What motivated you to do those two things? Well, first I'll talk a little bit about the cover. I love astronomy and astrophysics, and that is one of my favorite photos. It was the deep space photo taken by the Hubble telescope. So I thought that that would be a good reference to the title continuum in the sense of it being something that is ongoing and that, you know, that there are.

Starting point is 00:03:02 many layers and levels to our existence and to us. So I just figured that would be, you know, a good reflection of where I was going with the poetry, but also a good reflection of my love for the wonders of the universe. And it is a delightful collection. And I found it, you know, really refreshing because, you know, there is that kind of a notion. I don't know if you've ever heard it. Paul Dirac, who is one of the founders of quantum theory, he was no fan of poetry. And he used to say stuff that I would quote in my poetry for physicist class,

Starting point is 00:03:49 which I taught with Professor Ray Armantrout, who won the Pulitzer Prize from President Obama back in 2011, I think. She and I co-taught a class. And I said, I always wanted to teach, you know, you always hear about, you know, physics for poets, but we wanted to do poetry for physicists. And I started off that class, my lecture, we shared it together with Dirac's quote. He said, and I quote, in science, one tries to tell people in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in the case of poetry, it's the exact opposite. In other words, it's poetry is like intentionally confused. How do you react to this, to this

Starting point is 00:04:30 Dirac's quote, this disparagement of poetry? Is that warranted? Just so I'm clear, he's arguing that poetry is intentionally confusing. Correct. I feel that poetry is a reflection of life.

Starting point is 00:04:48 So if the poetry is confusing, then it's just maneuvering through the existence of our confusing lives, which could be very confusing at times. So, I mean, I just write through my life experiences. There are many things in life that have confused me that I've gotten clarity by writing about it. So I guess that would be my take on that. I mean, life is a little confusing. You know, it's a little confusing for everyone.

Starting point is 00:05:21 We reach points in our lives where we're confused by things or confused about which way to turn. I feel that poetry helps me to figure all of that out. So I would slightly disagree. I would only agree that poetry can be reflective of life's confusion, but I think that it can be a tool to help us get through that confusion. Yeah, I can't disagree with that. I think, you know, Dirac, by the way, his own brother-in-law said that Paul never uses two words when zero will do.

Starting point is 00:05:57 But I actually think he was a deeply closeted poet because in his work, he made use of fundamentals of verse, of economy, of parsimony, of this notion of symmetry and structure. And I think poetry has a lot to teach physicists. And I think physicists have a lot to teach poets. What do you think about those, the intermingling of the two disciplines that you engage in? Well, I was asked a question before. How do you bridge the expressive arts with the sciences? And my answer to that was, well, I am the bridge.

Starting point is 00:06:36 So the way that I maneuver through this is to just trust that everything I'm about as a poet and everything I'm about as a physicist will always be in balance. and even through the contradictions, there are still compliments, right? They still compliment each other in a lot of different ways. And I always find ways to bring poetry into my physics, and I always find ways to bring physics into my poetry. So it's just very natural for me. I don't even really think about it, to be honest. It's just reflective of my love for the two fields.

Starting point is 00:07:17 And do you attribute that to natural gift, hard work, struggle that you've had. In other words, why aren't more of our physics colleagues more conversant with the expressive arts? I think they don't know that they're artists. And deep down, they really are. That's the way that I look at that. I spent some years teaching high school students how to rap, how to write poetry about

Starting point is 00:07:51 stage etiquette recording, self-reflection, using art as a therapeutic tool. And what I've found is that a lot of the students that would come to me in the beginning and say, hey, I'm not doing this. I can't rap. I can't write poetry. I can't even perform. And it gives me a lot of gratification by the time I'm done with them. And we're rounding up the program. They're rapping. They're writing poetry. They're performing in slams, winning slams. They're making songs, making videos. And this all stemmed from them just not knowing that there is an artist within them. So I would apply that same thing to scientists. And I know that there can be a lot of pushback with that. but I feel that that's part of the reason that steam is becoming more prevalent as we maneuver

Starting point is 00:08:52 through the arts and sciences as well. So a lot of my research and a lot of my focus will be in steam, which is, you know, the STEM plus the arts. I think that's the best way that I can answer that because I truly believe that everyone is an artist deep down in some way. Yeah. Yeah, and it sort of gets taken out of them. And I feel everyone's a scientist, or at least all kids start off as scientists. They're curious. They're playful. They're imaginative. They're inquisitive. Then they don't play well with others. They're selfish. They're jealous. You know, all the bad traits of scientists or all the good traits of scientists, there's no such thing as a single-edged sword. And, you know, when I'm trying to develop in my students is an appreciation for what, you know, people call the two cultures. And, you know, but make it a third culture that the arts are to be integrated. And I think the best physicists are artists in a way.

Starting point is 00:09:50 And it may be orators. It may be speakers. And your victoriousness in slams. Talk about slams. Talk about freestyle. How do those do things like square that circle to me? Because I think, you know, there's an old Jerry Seinfeld joke. And he says, more people are scared of public speaking than of death.

Starting point is 00:10:11 So you'd rather be in the coffee. than delivering the eulogy. So that's the way most people are. How did you, did you have an, you know, an obstacle to that path? Or did it always come natural to you, the slams, the freestyle? How did that integrate into your persona? Well, first I want to say, I like your emphasis on how you believe that everyone is a scientist deep down. Because I can see a lot of parallels with what you were saying about the imagination and the creativity and things like that.

Starting point is 00:10:43 Never looked at it that way. So appreciate that. As far as how I've moved through public performance and public speaking, I still experience stage fright, believe it or not. I've learned to appreciate it over time, and that's something that I've instilled in my students. like, hey, look, stage fright isn't something that's just going to miraculously disappear someday. I mean, even Beyonce, who is probably one of the greatest performers of all time and of our generation, has admitted to experiencing stage right. Still to this day, it's very normal. And what I do is, I just... Have you ever rearranged your furniture and discovered the carpet underneath looks brand new, while the rest of it looks, well, not so new? It's time for...

Starting point is 00:11:40 for a carpet upgrade. At the Home Depot, we have stylish choices at simple prices from all the top brands. Best of all, we can install it for you, starting at only 49 cents per square foot, so all you have to do is pick your perfect floor. Start your carpet project today at the Home Depot, how doers get more done. Exclusions apply for licenses, see Home Depot.com slash license numbers. It's peak pollination season, and my business is scaling fast. To keep the nectar flowing, I need a phone plan with top priority data. That's why I chose GoogleFi wireless. My connections stay strong even when the hive is buzzing.

Starting point is 00:12:15 Plus, unlimited plans started $35 a month. Now that's a deal that doesn't stay. Explore GoogleFi Wireless plans today. Plus taxes and government fees. Google Fi Wireless is not subject to data traffic deprioritization during times of high network usage. Allow it to give me that adrenaline that I need, and it reminds me that I care about what I'm doing.

Starting point is 00:12:38 I care about what I'm saying. about what I'm saying, right? And it helps me to really give my all when I'm on stage and really just trust in my art and trust in the message and trust that people will be able to receive it. And it always goes well, right? When I get off the stage, I'm always like, I should have said that differently or I messed up that word or I stuttered here or all just because I stuttered this one word, now the entire performance is mute, right? But the kind of feedback that I get lets me know that people don't even pay attention to the things that we pay attention to. We're our own worst critics, you know.

Starting point is 00:13:19 So it's just something that I've grown through, appreciating that stage fright does not go away, but, you know, seeing it as a tool that I can utilize to really give my all and remind me that I care about what I'm doing. And it also keeps me humble. when we think about you know kind of these these notions of what we're good at what we're not good at people what are people going to think about me i'm reminded of two different biases that people have one is the imposter syndrome like i'm not good enough i'm not strong enough whatever i'm not meant to be here i'm inadequate and another one is the spotlight effect that you were just talking about like oh like literally you feel like there's a spotlight on you 24-7 and the truth is nobody cares

Starting point is 00:14:06 about you. I'm not, I don't mean you personally, but like people, you know who most people care about themselves, right? So most people are 100% focused on themselves. And okay, every now and then they might be snarky or something else. But the doing of it, the attempting of a great thing is in itself kind of a character, you know, reformation that I think is missing in most of my undergraduate students. You know, I meet them in there, they might say to me, oh, it's hard. Like, I can't do that, Professor Keating. Like, I can't do that, Professor Keating. Like, I can't speak in front of people. I couldn't do like freestyle.

Starting point is 00:14:40 Some of my students are foreign students. I say, oh, yeah, you know, I guess you were born knowing, I guess you were born knowing advanced quantum mechanics. Like, I guess you were just like really good at Lagrangian dynamic. Like you were born, no, you had to work at it. And nothing worth having comes for free. And I think what I think my audience would be really interested in is kind of hearing your your so-called heroine's journey, like how you got here.

Starting point is 00:15:06 the world line that you took, were there any, you know, like moments in time that were critical points, as we say in thermodynamics, where there were their phase transitions? Because the name paradigm really evoked something central in science. And I'm curious, if you can take us up, was there a paradigm shift where you became the identity that you are now in all its wonderful facets? Was it slow? Was it punctuated equilibrium? How did you get talk us through your world line from Chicago to Davis and into the universe. Oh, man. How much time do you have?

Starting point is 00:15:48 Well, first I want to say that as an artist, I'll just elaborate on that a little bit. The first time I ever performed in public was at S.I.U. Carbondale when I was training to be a pilot. And I had joined this organization called VE. what is it, underground arts. And it's just a student organization on campus for students that were different variations of artists and they would put on open mics and things like that.

Starting point is 00:16:20 And I performed a piece that I had written. And I was so overwhelmed that I stopped midpiece because I just had to regather myself and catch my breath. I kept forgetting my next lines. I mean, to me, it was like just a horrible performance. But the kind of reception, you know, the kind of feedback that I got when I was finished, let me know that I had something going for myself, right? And it wasn't until I moved to New York because I've done a lot of traveling.

Starting point is 00:16:56 I lived in New York for a few years where I began to perform more. and I began to realize that I truly had some sort of gift for the art of words. And I decided to dive into it further and published my first book in 2012. And that was something I never thought I would see. I didn't even know how to do that. But I found someone who was able to help me with it. Coming years later, I published two more books. Up until now, we have continuum, which is a combination of those first three books with some of my latest poetry.

Starting point is 00:17:38 I just combined it all into a collection or an anthology of sorts. But, you know, my journey as an artist has been just believing in myself. And the name Paradine was given to me. I don't remember who gave it to me, but I know that when they, it was 2007 or 2006, I believe. believe, they were just like, you're a paradigm. And I was like, oh, I think that's my name. And it just stuck. Even with that name, you know, where it's defined as something that serves as a pattern or a model, it's really allowed me to really see my place as an artist in society in the ways in which we contribute. Not sure. Have you seen the Dead Poets Society with Robin Williams?

Starting point is 00:18:31 I don't. What is it? Hmm. Okay. Any relations? But I mean, that one scene where he was in the class breaking down to the students, you know, engineering, law, you know, medicine, these are noble pursuits, but poetry, you know, the things that artists contribute to life. You know, that is really what creates that balance between the creatives and the ones that contribute to pushing us forward technologically.

Starting point is 00:19:12 And I really appreciated him saying that so much that I featured it on one of my spoken word albums. But that's kind of led up to where I am now, where I'm pursuing a PhD in physics. And, you know, as an artist, I feel like it's always been polarized. I feel like there's just been this dichotomy of science versus the arts. You can't be both. You have to choose one or the other, right? And that's the kind of household I grew up in as well. I had the kind of father that was like, you know, if you want to play guitar, I mean, that's fine, but you're not going to get anywhere with that.

Starting point is 00:19:54 You know, this is the real world. You have to work. You have to make money. You have to go to school for something. You have to do something that's lucrative, you know. And I believe that for a long time. But I think in recent years, I just got to a point where I was just, I just decided I don't want to choose between one or the other anymore. I'm going to create a bridge, be a bridge, and have the balance of these two beautiful fields in my life.

Starting point is 00:20:23 And that is how I got here today, where I am in Davis, getting ready to start grad school, which I never thought I would be doing for, astrophysics at that, you know. As much as I love this field, there was a time I didn't think I was smart enough to even finish an undergrad degree in STEM, you know, but here I am and I'm very happy about it, and I'm happy to be bringing my artistic endeavors along with me. So, It's truly, truly inspirational. Talk about yourself as an aviator, as a pilot. I started, I thought aviation at an immature age or a younger age than most people in graduate school. You did it, you know, even younger and earlier.

Starting point is 00:21:15 Talk about that. What is aviation? How does that tie into your persona, who you are, your identity? Because I've heard it said by, I don't know, are you from? familiar with John and Martha King, the King schools. They do like videos on flight training and stuff like that. I'm not familiar with that. Yeah, they're actually here in San Diego and I met him once, the husband John, and he said like being a pilot is an identity. Even if you stop flying, you never fly again, you're always a pilot for the rest of your life. All those who have slipped

Starting point is 00:21:50 the surly bonds of earth have become pilots and that's part of who you are. Talk about what does aviation mean to you, John? The first time I flew solo, I mean, that's something you never forget, right? Because that entire time, with flight training, with my instructor in the seat next to me, you really notice the weight difference when you take off by yourself. So I noticed that firsthand. But, I mean, ever since I was about six years old, I knew I wanted to be an accident. astronaut, engineer, something of that nature. By the time I was in high school, I brought that down

Starting point is 00:22:32 a few hundred thousand feet to being a pilot. But I mean, I was afraid to fly at first. You know, I was terrified of flying. I was convinced the first time that I got on an airplane that that was going to be the end of me. I was 11 years old. I embarrassed my sister. You know, we were flying down to Houston to visit my grandparents from Chicago, and it was my first time flying. I think this was in about 96 or 97. So to make matters worse, it was just me and my sister. I didn't have the comfort of my parents on the plane with me or anything like that. And I remember just bawling, like just being a hysterical mess because I was just convinced, like, this plane is going down.

Starting point is 00:23:21 Like, there's no way we're making it to Houston safely. But once I experienced what it felt like to take off and once we actually did make it to Houston and we landed, there was a slight fascination that grew from that. So out of that fear came intrigue. And that is how I became interested in aviation. And once I learned how to fly and I learned how airplanes work and I felt what it feels like to be in the cockpit, to be in control, to be pilot and command, it was life-changing. I'm no longer afraid to fly, needless to say. Usually when I do fly, I'm just going through my head, everything the pilots are doing as we're taking off, everything they're doing as we're landing. you know, things like that.

Starting point is 00:24:19 And I just love planes now. Just, you know, it's space shuttles, planes, you name it, anything with wings. I love it. And it's just a funny story to tell because it just goes back to me just being terrified and thinking that I was going to die the first time I flew. I want to read a Palmer if you could read it. Well, you don't have a, your book is sold out. I got my copy delivered.

Starting point is 00:24:46 It's the courtesy of you, but I also got the Kindle version online, and everybody should do that. I'll put a link in the show notes. I love this poem, Black Aviator. I'm happy to read. Yeah, could you please do me the honor of reading that wonderful poem, Black Aviator, page 146 in the hard copy and the paperback if you're playing along at home? Absolutely. So this poem, just to give a little background, it gives a little more.

Starting point is 00:25:16 insight into my journey into aviation and my background growing up on the south side of Chicago where there aren't many pilots, you know. But I was that kid that was, you know, six years old, infatuated with the universe, infatuated with space. And, you know, that's how this came to be. So I'll just get into the piece. On the city's south side, there is only one way. Monday through Sunday, you must be weary of gunplay, where some lack an education but dream to make it out someday,

Starting point is 00:25:57 where you don't see blacks in aviation, still I chose life on the runway. Every time I'd board a plane, my kind was not in the captain's seat, and because of that I figured there were other things I'd have to be. But when I looked into our history, I questioned all I was made to believe. leave. I read up on Bessie Coleman and realized there is nothing I can achieve. I felt so weightless and free the first time I ever flew solo. It was like the sky was made just for me, and God gave me a deal on the low low. I'm paving roads for the no names with payback and such incentives, spent all my

Starting point is 00:26:36 parents' money with no shame because, you know, flight training is expensive. But no matter how hollow my means. I pursued and followed my dreams, finding light and the darkness I come from and sharing it with other Chicago teams. Today I go full throttle, rotate before the runways finish. With cloud nine at my wingtips, I now know the sky truly has no limit. So on the south side of Chicago, where many feel they have no options, trailblazers emerge from struggle, and I'm here, a black woman in the cockpit. That's their piece. I love that poem. It's always interesting.

Starting point is 00:27:16 And you know, Joanne, because we talked earlier, you know, we're trying to coordinate this interview for months now with our hectic schedules and your move to become a grad student. And then we decided we would do it on the day between our two birthdays, mine September 9th and your September 11. I want to ask you about September 11 as a pilot, as an aviator. How did that day affect you? Let's see, that was my, hoping no one does the math here. But that was my 15th birthday in 2001. It was a rough day for me. It was, you know, I think everyone remembers where they were,

Starting point is 00:28:01 what they were doing when they started hearing the news reports, if you weren't in New York City already. I was in Chicago. I was in high school. I was a, I was turning 15, so I was a sophomore. I was in my Spanish class that morning. And I remember just having an eerie feeling, you know, just I'm excited about my birthday and everything. But, you know, later on I read about this some years later that it was kind of a collective conscious kind of a feeling that was felt globally by everyone before everything started happening, that something just wasn't right that morning.

Starting point is 00:28:40 So I was feeling that. And the day transpired, how it transpired. And, you know, my, my birthdays ever since have not been the same. You know, the first few years were very, very hard. I even made the mistake of spending one of those years in New York City for my birthday. And that was a very, very dreary day, needless to say. But, You know, I just make it a point to, especially these days, I just kind of have to just stay away from the media. You know, I stay away from the news, things like that. I mean, of course, I keep an ear out to what's going on because there's also just a slight paranoia that something can happen again on that day, right? And I've come to find over the years that a lot of people that share my birthday, we deal with a lot of this minor PTSD that we experienced on that day and that we got from that day. And with that being our birthday, so I wouldn't say it changed how I approach aviation. but it did make me appreciate why I love airplanes and why I love aviation because for a while a lot of people didn't want to fly anymore, myself included, but I really had to rekindle that within myself

Starting point is 00:30:20 and, you know, allow that love for aviation to, you know, continue on even through all of that. So that's the best way I can answer that question. But even 20 years later, don't do the math, 20 years later, you know, it's still, it's a lot better these days, but, you know, there's still a flight. And I feel like everyone feels it. It's not just people that have birthdays, but I feel for those of us that do have a birthday on this day, it's a little heavy for us as well in a different kind of way because there have been some times where I felt bad for celebrating,

Starting point is 00:31:10 but I'm like, this is my day, you know. It's the day I was born. I should be able to celebrate it. The 15 years prior to that, everything was great, right? So I've made it a point to continue that on for the rest of my life. I think that's a beautiful. Yeah, I hope that answers your question. Yeah, it's a beautiful approach to it.

Starting point is 00:31:32 Yeah, it was my parents' anniversary, but they got divorced before it happened. So it has a dual significance in some ways for them. But, you know, when I think about airplanes, which I associate with joy, with liberation, with freedom and then being used as weapons, of course, with the innocent souls that we lost. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's still hurts me. I was much older. Actually, I was flying to Chicago on that day from L.A. And, uh, obviously everything got canceled. But it was a, it was a, a truly, truly, you know, see change in my viewpoint of the world. And, um, you know, I, I can't, uh, truly appreciate the significance of having a birthday on that day. But, uh, I, uh, I can't, I can't, uh, truly appreciate the

Starting point is 00:32:15 significance of having a birthday on that day. But I do want to, you know, obviously, certainly wish you a happy birthday. We'll conclude with that later on. But before we do that, I want to talk about some of my other favorite poems that revolve around physics. So, I mean, you and I are kindred spirits. Like I said, physics, you're a poet. I love poetry. And you're a pilot. And I want to get in the physics domain of your 10-dimensional personality. So there's two poems that I love. They're in succession. There is, you know, kind of always throughout the book, there is issues of race do appear. And obviously, that is something that we should touch upon. But I want to ask you about to read these two poems, black energy and black matter. Those are, those are so, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:09 joy. It's almost like an equation and some of the E.E. Cummings like layout, I don't know if you, if you did all the layout and everything, but it kind of reminded me of like the way when you look at Einstein's equations, the structure of the equations tells you how to do the math. And in your poetry, the structure of the verses is evocative. And I think, I think it's beautiful. But anyway, for readers that don't have it or listeners don't have it, would you do me in the honor of reading those two Black Matter, Black Energy? Yes. First, I want to give a little background for those two pieces because we're talking about race a little bit here. And I do want to say that those poems were inspired by the experience of being a black woman.

Starting point is 00:34:01 right? So I wrote the poems as a using the concept of dark energy and dark matter as a metaphor for the life experience of a black woman such as myself. So without further ado, I'll just get into them. The first one is called black energy. Sixty eight percent of the universe. She rises, overcoming gravity. accelerating expansion of the cosmos, unsure of how she operates, unsure of what it all means, she outlines the emptiness of space,

Starting point is 00:34:43 weak and strong forces of nature, carrying electromagnetic shields. As more space emerges, so does dark energy, and she dominates. And this next piece along those same lines is called Black Matter. 27% of the universe, 80% of its matter.

Starting point is 00:35:10 Light from her stars not yet arriving to Earth. Dark and seen, but unseen. Unnoticed, unobeserved. Yet she holds the elements of the universe together. Groups of objects function together through her explanations. She rotates galaxies, filling them with her mass. where her stars orbit faster. Holes in black serve as gravity lenses in bin light.

Starting point is 00:35:42 Not normal matter, not anti-matter. She is dark matter, the invisible hand of the Big Bang. Those are those two pieces. I can't help but escape the notion that you use the feminine. Talk about what is that. How is it in the, in the, in the, this, you know, kind of universe associated with a female that resonates throughout the book. Talk about that. And also this notion that, you know, the word cosmos, you know, I always put

Starting point is 00:36:16 out cosmos and cosmology, they have the same root and that's like beauty. And then verse is like verse. And it's like the word spoken by God or whoever you want, the multiverse, Alan Gooth, Andre, Linda. Talk about the feminine in the universe. And, and, and, and this notion of blackness and what does that mean? My friend Stefan's book is called an outsider's guide. How do you react to that? I mean, that's a very layered question. I mean, I simply talk about my experiences through race and the universe through the lens of the feminine.

Starting point is 00:37:05 because it reflects on my life experiences, and it is a way for me to, I guess, maybe approach it in a therapeutic sense. And I think my poem, which I want to read when we're wrapping up here, Dark Matters definitely reflects on that as well. And I have a spiritual relationship. with the universe as well. And I don't feel that science acknowledges spirituality in the sense that it should.

Starting point is 00:37:52 And I truly believe that balance exists everywhere and that parallels exist everywhere. And there are many, many parallels between science and spirituality. So my spiritual approach to seeing the universe through a feminine and lens is also reflected in me explaining it in a scientific sense through my poetry. And that's the best way that I can answer that question. But then we'd have to dig into what is this concept of spirit science, right? And the debate of whether or not spirituality is relevant to science.

Starting point is 00:38:35 To me it is, you know, but I totally respect people that think it is. isn't. And it's the same approach that I have with philosophy, which I feel is the godfather of science. But even today, as much as I appreciate philosophy, I don't feel that science appreciates philosophy, at least like it used to. So these are things that I dance around in my art, creating these parallels, creating these bridges, seeing these things in balance and creating this balance through my artwork. Does that answer? Yeah, it definitely does. I mean, we're always perceiving things, you know, as you know, looking through the atmosphere, looking through the universe, it's seeing it through a dark vision or obscured. But our job as scientists, especially in my field,

Starting point is 00:39:27 experimental scientist, is to design the perceptions that you can use to overcome your biases, to overcome and see things, as I say, you know, sensors and sensibility, not just the pure sense, not just the pure sensitivity, maybe not just the pure materialism. There has to be some notion that we are human beings. And some believe we are endowed by a creator, some force, some spirit, some don't, some find that anathema to science. I think that I agree. if you had a more kind of balanced exposure to philosophy, you'd see it's the root grounding of all science, philosophy, and mathematics. And I just think that truly resonates with me as well. I want to ask you to read maybe one more of your favorite poems, help us deconstruct it,

Starting point is 00:40:18 maybe with a physics poet kind of take, like how to inculcate a notion of affection for poetry. and some of our colleagues who may not be, you know, might be a little more reluctant to drop that stoic analytic sense. Can you take one of your poems and walk us through it and see how we can do it analytically, not to deconstruct it for deconstruction sake, but what do you think about when you're constructing such a thing? Hmm. Okay. What comes to mind is a short poem I wrote titled Space Time. And this, And this poem incorporates everything that we just talked about, right? A little bit of metaphysics, a little bit of philosophy, some physics, and also love, right? And the spiritual

Starting point is 00:41:12 association through love that I have. And I'll just read it and then we can kind of deconstructed. it's very short. It just goes, you say anything is possible, but you need space and time. Given the space and time, we will transcend space and time. Traveling at speeds faster than life, immeasurable to man in his physics, for you and I have no space or time for impossibilities. And that's that piece. So walk us through. What is the cosmic genesis of that? What does it mean to you?

Starting point is 00:42:02 How should we approach it and think about it? Is it multi-layered as it sounds? Or is it more kind of could be understood in many levels? Or is it more properly understood in a superficial way? For me, it's very multi-layered. When I'm in love, I feel that that transcends space and time, right? The act of being in love is, is quote-unquote, godly, right? So when I think of this godly experience of being in love, I think of the universe and the

Starting point is 00:42:40 experiences that it gives us and what we understand about it. And that goes way back to Einstein with his approach to space time and understanding of space time. So I play on that a little bit in the physics sense, but I also throw that metaphysical, spiritual sense in there as well, like, hey, given that space and time, we will transcend space and time. Traveling at, traveling at speeds faster than light immeasurable to man in his physics, because we technically can't travel faster than the speed of light, at least not yet. Right. And so I play on that as well. Like with love, this is possible, right?

Starting point is 00:43:25 This is something that we can do. We don't have space or time for impossibilities in this space time. So that's where I'm going with that. Because, you know, as it said, and this is why I'm kind of more optimistic about artificial intelligence and things. People say, I was going to take over everything. I say, well, Einstein used to do what are called Godunken experiment. As you know, thought experiments. And these thought experiments were ways to approach a reality that he couldn't access.

Starting point is 00:43:55 Like, what if I raced alongside a light beam or what he called the happiest thought of his life was when he realized if I was falling through space, I couldn't distinguish that from being, you know, a free fall from zero G acceleration and the weak equivalence principle. And because of that, he called that the happiest thought of his life. Now, I can't imagine a computer, A, knowing what? free fall is like and be knowing like what's what's happiness for a computer and i think physics and poetry will always be things that only a human mind and a soul perhaps as you have can illuminate and uh and i and i think that's that is um part of what it means to be a complete human being i see you

Starting point is 00:44:37 as a renaissance mind as a scholar and and that you can approach things with courage i think that is the fundamental trait you overcome your fear of flying you overcome you know these obstacles in your path as a youngster going to now going to graduate school. I want to just close with that. What do you look forward to most about graduate school? Obviously, you know, you're just starting out, don't know exactly where your world line's going to go, you know, and most people change their minds a couple times even in graduate school. What are you most hoping, big picture, to emerge, whenever you emerge with whatever, you know, degree, subspecialty you get? What are you hoping most to achieve? Well, for one, I am first generation. So I come from a very large family,

Starting point is 00:45:26 and I am the youngest, and I am the second to complete a bachelor's degree, the first to complete a degree in STEM, and also the first to be pursuing a PhD. So there's a lot of pressure, right? But it's also very, very beautiful. And it's something to look forward to because I feel like I'm carrying the torch for my family, for my ancestor, for the generations that I come from and the ones that will come after me. And I'm very grateful for that feeling because, like I was saying earlier, I never thought grad school was not even in my considerations, right? Let alone finishing an undergrad degree in engineering physics at that. So, I mean, even just thinking about it now, because it's still fresh, I graduated in May, and it's still very surreal to me that I actually completed that. I look forward

Starting point is 00:46:36 to more of that feeling, just going further because I can. And in a sense, I'm supposed to because this isn't just about me. This is pushing forward for, you know, those before me that did not have these opportunities. And, you know, understanding that I am their wildest dreams, right? So in that sense, I'm greatly looking forward to grad school. in another sense, I look forward to giving back because, like I danced around this a little earlier, but I was not the greatest student growing up. I'm just being honest.

Starting point is 00:47:23 I was not good at math. I was not good at science. You know, I struggled with these subjects immensely, right? to the point that I thought, you know, going to school for physics, I mean, who am I kidding? You know, I would talk myself out of it. Then there's that imposter syndrome that we spoke about, right? Which I still struggle with to this day. And I think about everything that I'm going through and what I'm accomplishing and the obstacles that I've overcome.

Starting point is 00:47:54 And I think about kids that are back home in Chicago going to these schools that are you know, underfunded. They don't have proper resources. You know, these are the kind of schools that I went to. And I want to give back in the sense of finding those kids like me who don't think that they are any good at physics and math or any STEM subjects who may have interest and fascinations in these subjects, right? Be it by way of anime or comic books or what. whatever, because you get that a lot, but then there's like a hard stop with them pursuing it at an academic or professional level. And I just want to be there to do what I can to show them that they can, right? I would love to teach math. I would love to teach physics in inner city high schools, inner city middle schools. I would love to start STEM programs that use the arts or the expressive arts as pedagogy to teach some of these subjects, which I think will catapult the interest in these subjects as well,

Starting point is 00:49:04 such as using hip-hop as pedagogy to teach physics, for instance. And that's something I'm building on. That's something I look to do more research on in grad school. And so, I mean, those are the main two things, like just carrying the torch, knowing that I've been past a torch and I'm moving forward and also not getting so far ahead that I can't turn around and, you know, give back and understand that I'm blazing these trails for many to come after me in the same way that those before me blazed trails to give me the opportunity to even do this. So I'm grateful. That's so so delightful to hear reminds me of famous, physical. Jacob Zeldovich, who was in the Soviet Union, a Jew, he was oppressed and struggled,

Starting point is 00:50:01 but he communicated to his student, Alexander Polnerov, who became my mentor. He said the word scientist in Russian means someone who was taught. And that's a translation. And to me, that evokes an obligation that we have a scientist to repay, you know, pay it back, but also pay it forwards. And I'm just so delighted that you exist, Joanna. Because you really are this, you know, when I first heard you and you read this one of your poems last year on the closing ceremony for the Simons and this BP program, you know, I was just like riveted. I got my kids all to shut up for a couple minutes while you read it so I could give it the attention it deserved.

Starting point is 00:50:43 And there's so many poems in this book that are, they're heart wrenching. I mean, you got to have, you know, a box of a Kleenex nearby when you talk about, you know, quantum mechanics, love mechanics. There's heart wrenching stuff in here. There's deep stuff. There's fun stuff. There's, you know, I don't want to call it frivolous, but it's delightful. And I just want to thank you for this book.

Starting point is 00:51:05 I want to thank you for your mind and your contributions. And that I have no doubt you're going to be a supernova in this field and whatever you do. And I hope you'll stay in touch and come back on whenever you have a new project or something that you want to share with the universe. because you're the reason in a large way. You're the reason that I started this mission that I'm on to connect the multiverse's greatest minds and people that inspire me. So I want to thank you for inspiring me. I want to wish you joined a very, very special birthday.

Starting point is 00:51:37 I'm not going to say what it is. I can't do the math in real time. But I want to miss you a special birthday, September 11th. Now I will say it has at least one very positive connotation. Absolutely. Thank you. And I would love to close with a poem if we have time. for that. Because we were talking earlier about why I named the book Continuum, and I was kind of

Starting point is 00:51:58 thinking about that a little more throughout the interview, because we understand a continuum to be defined as something that keeps going and changing over time, right? That explains my poetry, that explains me, that explains you, that explains life, existence, that explains the universe. And in that sense, I think this poem that I wrote is a very liberating and healing piece for us, especially in these times. And when we met last year, via the NSBP program with Simon's Observatory at Princeton, I was a part of a very, very, very interesting, intriguing, beautiful research that I was just having a great time being a part of. But we all know that outside of our doors, there were some very, very energetic, chaotic things happening in the world. So this piece is bittersweet because I wrote it in that sense of why I love astronomy, why I love astrophysics,

Starting point is 00:53:16 why I love the universe, why I love space, because it gives me perspective about our experiences here on Earth and as human beings sharing this life experience on this planet. And I think that we get so lost and so divided at times just by our little differences, you know, I think I read somewhere, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure how true this is, but we're 99% the same. Oh, more, yeah. We're 99% the same. But we're so divided by that 1% of differences that we have.

Starting point is 00:54:02 So dark matters brings in that spirituality, brings in that philosophy, brings in that metaphysics, brings in that science, and also brings in that art of everything that makes me me and why I love this work. So without further ado, I'll get into this piece. At the event horizon of a black hole, there's been a rising of black souls. We arrived in time capsules. We are the masterminds. Ford fast rewind, viewing stars from past design.

Starting point is 00:54:41 We are the last to shine, a mysterious class divine. These dark matters have beginnings and the origins of originality. We are just now earning our winnings, but we were here before the galaxies. An argument full of fallacy, but what you believe becomes reality. And what's in us is in the stars, so I view our history through this analogy. All that is old is new, and all that is new is old. Our son has told the truth, reflecting. seas like blue to gold. We are neglected as a collective, yet we possess these star qualities.

Starting point is 00:55:23 I'm so invested in this perspective, earthed at center like Ptolemy. With silent Big Bangs preferred, like when the Big Bang occurred, these are times of civil unrest where now Big Bangs are heard. From that of the celestial sphere, we are the extraterrestrials here. We arrived from frozen suns. blaze resilient, the chosen ones. Among wildfires burning slow, we're enduring constant struggle. Turning hole via wormholes, we expand like constant Hubble.

Starting point is 00:56:00 We are infinite yet finite, bringers of dawn in twilight, sparking bright like pyrite, we were alive when we arrived. A monolith of afterthoughts, but we're layered like Earth's core. Take off, explore like astronauts. We are truly before, before.

Starting point is 00:56:22 Without our dark energy, the universe would collapse into itself. We are the entities of that chemistry, bodies holding place like the Kuiper Belt. The distinction between you and I remains to be a false dichotomy, for at the heart of of Pyrrith's life lies a sacred and beautiful geometry. Through devastation comes celebration, for our true wealth lies in astronomy, yet many beings look down at night, aligned with man's unbroken economy. A virus claiming its older victims, I must look to the sky for solace, for we are all of the solar system. We are earthly flawed, yet cosmically flawless. Are we nearing our 11th hour?

Starting point is 00:57:10 Will we fold under this pressure? With nature fueling our powers, we can change the world like that of Tesla. Make a life but one can take it. Bullets fly, but we're the matrix. This is scientific but also sacred, as no one ever truly dies. Through portals, we become immortal. I know now what my calling is. I look to the stars for reminders.

Starting point is 00:57:36 We're survivors, and we come from something so much greater than all of this. that's their piece i love it it's uh it's touching it's moving it's inspiring and it's also mind expanding i i like to think of you as uh an experimentalist in any way and a godanken experiment a thought experimentalist of the highest caliber and joanne paradigm thank you i want to thank you so much for for being who you are and i hope someday we can fly together and i hope someday we can do some poetry slams together and I hope we can do some physics together. I'm so glad you're in the University of California system. We didn't lose you back to those Illinois folks again or whatever. I hope we can have many strong interactions in the future. Thank you so much and happy,

Starting point is 00:58:27 happy birthday, Joanne. And please go to my website, www.meteparadime.com. For more information on everything that I do, if you're interested in my book, you can purchase it there. You can read more of my poetry. You can hear some of my music and just see what I'm up to. And my links to my social media accounts are also on my website. And I just want to say that if you fly with me, Brian, you got to make sure you got a strong stomach. I like to have fun. I don't know. It could be a smooth landing. Who knows? I'll have links to all your stuff in the show notes and in the text box and YouTube. And again, once again, thank you for sharing this slice of the spacetime continuum with me and my listeners. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Starting point is 00:59:26 Please support the show by rating, commenting, sharing, and leaving reviews. We appreciate hearing from you, and it really helps keep our universe expanding. Watch our YouTube channel at Dr. Brian Keating. That's DR. Brian Keating and join our premieres Tuesdays at 8 a.m. Pacific Time. Follow Brian on Twitter and Medium and support us on Patreon at Dr. Brian Keating. For exclusive content, visit Brian Keating's website and sign. sign up for his informative newsletter at brian keating.com. Into the Impossible is produced with the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination in the Division of Physical Sciences at the University of California, San Diego.

Starting point is 01:00:01 Produced by Stuart Volko and Brian Keating. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals, because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition, First Citizens Bank.

Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - JOANN ROBERTS Poetry for Physicists (#200)

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.