Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - Marilyn Simons: Legion of Honor! ​(#215)

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

Dr. Marilyn Hawrys Simons received a B.A. and Ph.D. in Economics from SUNY, Stony Brook and has volunteered in the non‑profit sector for the last thirty years. In 1994, she co‑founded the Simons Foundation together with her husband, Jim Simons, and served as its President until June 2021. Asteroid 10701 Marilynsimons is named after her! The Simons Foundation is a charitable organization that was founded to fund basic research and educational programs in mathematics, physical and life sciences. The Foundation’s vision and generosity in also underwriting symposia, visiting lectureships and initiating programs at underserved institutions in the United States and abroad has helped to advance knowledge in a diverse spectrum of fields. She recently retired as President of the Simons Foundation and received the Legion d'Honaire, the highest French order of merit, both military and civil. Established in 1802 by Napoleon Bonaparte, it has been retained by all later French governments and régimes. Her primary focus being education, Marilyn has served for the past eight years as the President of the Board of Learning Spring Elementary School, a school for children with autistic spectrum disorders. She also sits on the board of the East Harlem Tutorial Program, an after-school teaching program in East Harlem. In 2008, Dr. Simons joined the Cold Spring Harbor Board of Trustees. At a personal level, Marilyn Simons has supported programs promoting an increased diversity and improved equity in science and economics. In 2013, she was awarded the Carnegie Medal for Philanthropy, for her extraordinary and pre‑eminent role in philanthropy. Marilyn is involved in various education initiatives and serves as a board member for many prestigious scientific institutions, including the American National Museum of Mathematics. Through the Simons Foundation, Marilyn Simons has played an essential role in supporting the Institut des Hautes Études Scientifiques's (IHÉS) ambition to develop greater financial independence. Over the course of two decades, the Simons Foundation has given more than $25 million to both specific projects, such as the building of the conference center that carries the names of Marilyn and Jim Simons, and to the Institute’s endowment, for example for the creation of the Simons Foundation Biology Fund at IHES. The Simons recently pledged an additional €25 million to support the institute over the next ten years. In 2021, in recognition of her contributions and achievements, the French Ambassador to the U.S. Philippe Etienne awarded Marilyn Simons the French Legion of Honor during a special ceremony Watch this fireside chat with Marilyn Simons held at the Institut des Hautes Études Scientifiques (IHÉS) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkfi6ZMMphk Please Visit our Sponsors: LinkedIn: LinkedIn.com/impossible to post a job for FREE Athletic Greens, makers of AG1 which I take every day. Get an exclusive offer when you visit https://athleticgreens.com/impossible AG1 is made from the highest quality ingredients, in accordance with the strictest standards and obsessively improved based on the latest science. All 33 Chairs. My All33 Chair is the ideal chair for all of us ‘knowledge workers’ suffering through unending Zoom calls. Sitting still is bad for you. All33 chairs are my choice because they allow your pelvis to move the way it does while you walk — so all 33 vertebrae align into perfect posture. The result? Better breathing, better blood flow, and relief from pain. It’s crazy what you can do when you set your body to it. To get $100 off your order, visit https://all33.com/impossible Search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, or go to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinction from magic. So everybody, it is a delight to welcome a friend who's known me pretty much my whole life, maybe even before I was born, I don't know. And that's Dr. Marilyn Simons, who is now currently, I think she's unemployed. I mean, you were the president of the Simons Foundation, and we're speaking in December right after you received the highest honor awarded to human beings by the French government called the Lejean, the honor. Now, Marilyn, I got a C-minus in high school French like 30 years ago. So please don't hold me to account. I know you've been practicing. But first of all,

how are you doing today, Marilyn? And congratulations. I'm doing great today. It's great to see you and be here with you, Brian. And one comment, I was never officially employed by the Simon's Foundation as a donor that would kind of make me have a conflict of interest. But I did have the title of president but never received a salary. And now I'm in the same position for our private foundation. So in the same employed, non-employed role. And when I think about you, the first thing that comes to mind is curiosity. When I think about all the different things you're so interested in,

I'll relate a very quick story. When we were in Chile in 2019 to do the groundbreaking for the Simon's Observatory, after we were up at 17,200 feet, you scampered up there almost from sea level. by yourself like a like a lovely mountain goat when you got there you did the groundbreaking better than the strapping young men we were with and then we came down we did some late night observations of the heavens using optical telescopes and it was really delightful for me to get to show you you know everything that's been my childhood passion and i thought i could impress upon you you know how much i know about astronomy since you knew me as a kid and there you are looking at jupiter and telling me all the

names of the moons and all the names of the different objects we were seeing. And I was like, I can't even, I can't even like one up her and this. She has to beat me in crossword puzzles. And it was, it was frustrating. But I do want to commend you on this, this radical curiosity that you have. And I want to start maybe with your beginning, after we get into what the Legion to Honor means. Let's talk about that. It was last given, it has been given to people like Alexander Fleming and Jane Goodall, who's a hero of mine, what is the Lejean d'Han, and what does it mean to you when you won it? Well, the Lejean Donor actually was an award that was started by Napoleon

to recognize people for their service to France. So it's a really high honor, and there are different levels of being recognized. And I found out that I was immediately promoted to level two. So I'm an officer in Malaysia on now. And, well, a funny story about how I first learned about this, Jim and I had a friend, and he was always making up stories and pulling our leg. He came to our house for dinner and over cocktails.

I told him that I thought that the dry cleaning company must have left a staple on his lapel. And he said to me, he explained to me that that was not a staple. It was an award from France, and he was recognized by the as a member of the Legion of the, Bonner. But of course, I thought he was totally pulling my leg. But it turns out it was true. So that's when I first learned about it. And, you know, you might wonder why, what was my service to France? And aside from being a francophile like so many of us around the world, it has been for the work of the Simon's Foundation and our support of basic science research and mathematics. And many of whom are many of our grantees are French citizens. and even many of our researchers at the Flatiron Institute come from France.

They have a remarkable culture and emphasis on research and science and math. So naturally, when you want to find the very best people in fields, many of them are in France. Yes. Yes, very much quite an inspiring country for many reasons. and not the least of which is their dedication to, you know, pure science, which is what I think about, not necessarily applied and looking for things, although something's come from some technological benefits do come from pure research, from fundamental research. But as you got the word of this notification, did you feel any kind of pressure, you know, I only know about losing things like losing the Nobel Prize. Did you feel when you saw the list of people,

including Jane Goodall and Alexander Fleming and Emmanuel Choppintier, were you intimidated at all? Was it sort of nerve-wracking or did you take it with your ordinary, well-known sense of Marilyn Simons-a-plum? One can help a figure assess if you really are deserving. But when I spoke to the people at the Institute desotitudes, Typhique, which we call IHES. One thing that was explained to me is, you know, there are not a lot of women in philanthropy

making big gifts and most especially supporting basic science and mathematics. So they definitely wanted to recognize my role and support of basic science and math. And by the way, Ryan, one thing that I learned going into the award ceremony, talking about French culture, in Paris, there are over 80 streets that are named after mathematicians. We just don't have anything like that in our culture. So I think we could all learn from and try to emulate their respect for the work being done there. Yeah. And even in other countries, much smaller countries take New Zealand.

The New Zealand, I think it's the $5, $5 note or $10 note, has Ernest Rutherford, who did most of his discoveries on the nucleus. well, he was in the UK, but he is on their, you know, one of their most used currency bills. And I think it's quite striking that how prominent other nations make their scientists and so forth. I actually had the honor of presenting an award to Michi Okaku at the French Embassy in Washington, D.C., last month in November for the Arthur C. Clarke Foundation. and I'm affiliated with them. And in the French embassy, I was just blown away on, they had an enormous hall dedicated to Marie Curie

and her amazing discoveries in radium and transformative ideas about science. And it seems to me they were really kind of ahead of the time, both in their science and their promotion of science, but also in women in science. And I think that's a topic that is near and dear to your heart is not only supporting women in science, which you do exceptionally well, but being a role model.

And I want to go back to your upbringing and to your career as an economist and obtaining your PhD. First of all, do you consider economics a science? Is it a science? They call it economic sciences and the Nobel Prize for this field. But do you consider it a type of science or is more like psychology in a sense? Well, it is human related. So it's what's called a social science. It's harder to do experiments the way, you know, when we think of science, we think of empirical observation and rational deduction of to get a better understanding of the world around us.

And I would say that economics is striving to move in that direction. No, but it's clearly there's a difference. It doesn't have that we know fundamental laws that will govern outcome, although probably, you know, there are some. There's fundamentally supply and demand. and but it's a work and progress. Yes, indeed. So talk about your,

I don't think I've ever heard you talk about your thesis work. When you were a graduate student at Stony Brook, what was your title of your thesis and what drew you to economics in the first place? First of all, in the 1970s, it wasn't so common for women to be in that field. It was a very much male-dominated field. In fact, I think it's the least, gender balanced of all the Nobel Prize.

I think only one woman is won the Nobel Prize in economics. I may be mistaken. Of course, it's the newest of all those Nobel Prize. But at any rate, what impelled you to take on this field of interest? And how does it relate to your early childhood kind of upbringing and exposure from a middle-class family in Long Island? How did you go pivot from that upbringing to something so erudite and enticing? But not normally the choice. of a woman in those times, I understand it.

So a couple of things. First, growing up, I grew up in the Cold War. And I was always hearing about communism. I remember playing with all the other kids on my block. And one day, we're all playing in Howie-Darp blends rock pile, smashing rocks, and a plane flew overhead. Oh, Howie Jackson. It was a plane flew overhead.

And somebody looked up and said, I hope that's not a Russian plane. And that's when I learned about the Russians and the cold war from the other kids. So communism always fascinated me. And also, you know, you said I grew up middle class. So I grew up middle, middle class. And everybody in my family was a bricklayer.

My father was a brick subcontractor. And I knew times were good, times were bad. And I remember one day my dad came home from work and he went right to sleep. And I asked my mom, what was the matter with my dad? And she said, oh, he's depressed. business is bad. So I think, you know, just my childhood experiences made me want to understand this part of the world around me, the political threat of communism and the real threat to our family

when times were bad. And, you know, I also went to Catholic girls' school. and I think also the ideals that I learned in Catholicism, I think also made some ideas in socialism very appealing to take care of everyone and think more about equity. And my mom mentioned that you wanted to be a Sarina at one point, is that? I would fit in with the Russians. Well, anyway, I did have a love of Russian culture, too. I was curious. And my own background, and my father said of the family is Polish.

But they spoke Russian because it was controlled by Russia. So anyway, when I went off to college, I started studying, first I took a course in Marxist economics, and then I took a course in microeconomics. But as to the male-female ratio, that to me, I was used to being with all girls. So now when I was with all boys, that was great. I didn't know what boys were like. I'd been in Catholic girls' school since I was eight years old to 18. I'd only had nuns as teachers. So it was pretty interesting to me to have boys in my class and have male teachers. And I remember at one point looking around the class thinking that I wasn't like anybody else in the class, but then having this other thought

that popped into my head, I guess we all love thinking about economics. So that was the end of my worrying about being different. And it was fun to me. So life was averaging out. And I really liked microeconomics. I always liked math when I went to school. My school didn't teach a lot of science. It had the basics for New York State and the basics for math.

But after I finished trigonometry in high school, there was no more math. And so actually, in my senior year, I took a correspondence course with the University of Nebraska. And I'd have to go to study hall and do my problem sets. And they get sent off to Nebraska to be graded. And that was a funny experience. But I'm just sharing that, that I liked math as a kid. And I really liked microeconomics. It was more mathematical.

So when I did my dissertation, I really loved auction theory. And I did my work on optimal bidding strategies. So optimal bidding strategies in multi-object auctions like the Treasury bill auctions. I looked at what was the revenue to the seller, in this case the Treasury, under different gain formulations of the rules. And my husband, Jim, taught me the calculus of variations so that I could derive these. optimal bidding strategies. But, you know, I really haven't continued with that research.

I always say that I went from being a theoretical microeconomist to being a very applied running our foundation. Right. Yeah. It is a full-time job for many people. and just doing it as you did for so long, you know, required these tools, I'm sure, and actual application, as you say, not just theoretically. And when you think about the kind of structure, the relationship between pure math

and connection to a social organization like the foundation, I'm curious in terms of leadership, you might have some ideas grounded in theory, but, you know, as they say, you know, communism works in theory, but not in practice. practice or so. How do you convey that, you know, to an organization that you're the leader of? How do you convey that, you know, there is a better way or perhaps there's a different approach, you know, when everybody's kind of doing everything for the first time. I mean, that was the first time the foundation ever existed and then you were leading it in this capacity. How do you convince people, you know, when you're starting from scratch, it's so hard to begin something anew? How do you

convince them to listen to you to take what you're saying, you know, with the proper amount of attention than it deserves. It's peak pollination season, and my business is scaling fast. To keep the nectar flowing, I need a phone plan with top priority data speeds. That's why I chose GoogleFi wireless. My connections stay strong even when the hive is buzzing. Plus, unlimited plans started $35 a month. Now, that's a deal that doesn't stay. Explore GoogleFi wireless plans today. Plus, taxes and government fees. GoogleFi Wireless is not subject to data traffic deprioritization during times of high network usage. That's a good question, and I'm sure something that you think about with your own work at the

Simon's Observatory. I think having a really strong team around me so that it isn't just what do I say, but also having incredible visionaries and leaders who are working together with me, it's never just one person who makes a difference. It's a team that makes a critical mass. And, you know, getting input from people who are terrific thinkers themselves, you can come up with a plan. And when I talk about our foundation, I always say that we evolved.

You know, it grew, just as you've experienced with your own observatory, right? Your project grew, and you have to grow and adapt and go to the next level. And we were always looking to get to that next level, but I just think it's the critical mass of people that you have around you that builds confidence and you just work so well together.

Yeah, and sometimes I feel like, you know, with folks that are so brilliant in one field, like I work with the most brilliant astrophysicists, scientists, computer scientists, et cetera, et cetera, engineers. And yet we don't spend that much time thinking, about management and organization and principles of a culture of success because it's actually perceived that that's hard. In other words, if I ask a brilliant National Academy member of our team, you know, why doesn't, you know, he or she, you know, like, do they pay any attention to best practices and management leadership? And say, oh, that's really hard. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,

because quantum electrodynamics is so easy. Everybody comes out of the womb and they know, no, though, I had to work on that. And I guess one of the challenges I'm curious of your approach on it, how do you convince somebody who is extremely well developed in one side of the brain? I always forget which side of the brain controls the quantitative side. And I'm sure that makes me the other side of the brain. But how do you convince them to take that side serious? In other words, the interpersonal skills, the persuasion.

There's an awful lot of salesmanship, even in science, to get your papers accepted and do sorts of various things and to champion your brand. How do you cultivate that in an organization? When again, it's ab initio. It's new. No one's ever done what you did before. How do you convince someone who's brilliant, quantitative, that the soft skills are also equally important, if not more important?

You know, that's why you have to have a team approach. I mean, I think, you know, I worked really closely with my husband, Jim. And Jim is very focused on getting the job done. being goal directed. But we also had people on the team who really focused on communication. And, you know, I think we built it in. And when somebody just say that you have a diversity

of needs and voices and messages that you need to deliver, we got everyone to at least accept that there was such a thing as best practices and that we were, that's the direction we were headed. And Brian, I got to hear somebody outstanding that you've added to your project. I think his name is Gary. Yeah. So he, it seems to me that you have a. team member that you added, who's a real voice for culture and communication and strategic

building of your project. And, you know, people will listen when the message is delivered clearly. Yeah, and I think, you know, that comes down to kind of conveying a sense of authority in a good sense, like you're an authority on something not like, you're going to do what I tell you to do. and I always wonder, well, how do you know somebody's an authority? Like, how do you know someone's an expert? You should look, according to Ray Dalio, who's, you know, I know is friendly with Jim. You know, he says, well, an expert is someone who's done a thing three times successfully. You know, it could be a telescope.

It could be starting a company or managing a fund or laboratories, et cetera. They've done it, you know, three different levels. And I kind of see that in our educational system. First, you get your graduate school degree, then you get your, you work as a postdoctoral scholar or fellow, and then you're an young assistant lab leader. And then you kind of establish this pedigree of leadership. But, you know, I always think there's got to be a better way. You know, how do we, you know, how do we inculcate the values and the culture to know, I need a team? And a lot of us are type A.

We want to do it all ourselves and we want to resist that urge. And it's really refreshing to see that you've had these three different careers. And you're probably going to have more careers. And I wonder, I know it's an unfair question, but I have to ask it. Like, do you have a favorite? You know, I always ask my mom, you know, as you know, my mom. And I'll say, you know, who's your favorite kid? Come on.

It's me. That's like asking me, you know, which hand is my favorite, my left or my right? And I say, mom, you are left-handed. You know, it's. So do you have like of the different careers, you know, from economics to philanthropy to, you know, board of directors, cold spring heart, all the things that you've done. Is there one in particular that really just you don't need any additional inspiration? It always excites you.

Or are they truly, like my mom's claim, I don't believe it, but that they're all like your fingers or your hands. They're equally important to you. You know, I think that I've grown and been able to do different things at different points. in my life. And so I feel now that I'm at a place where I get to integrate a lot of the knowledge that I learned previously. So I don't think I could answer that question, but for a different reason, because I couldn't have started out doing what I'm doing now.

I love seeing the whole picture. I'll give you an example. My niece likes acting, and she would talk about liking to be an actress. And I would say, well, what about being the person who pulls it all together, like seeing every role that's going, part of it, you know, the screenwriting, the acting, the selling, and, you know, getting the support for the film. And, you know, I like those kind of questions. I found it interesting as I got

older to be able to see a bigger picture and look at the way all the parts are interacting. I'm sure that's your experience at the Simon's Observatory too. Yeah. Yeah. And learning from the best in the world, the best engineers. And I think it's helped me that I am curious, I think like you, and that I love learning even about learning and I love learning even about management. So I want to use this as an opportunity to pivot to a different direction.

So every day I read a couple of books. I actually read a portion from the Bible. I know that surprises many of my scientists colleagues, the weekly Torah portion. I read that. But I also read ancient, you know, Christian philosophy, you know, stoicism. And I read something about business because, you know, a book by, like I said, Ray Dalio or Gordon Moore or rather Andy Grove, books like that really inspired because it's completely different wiring of the brain and a different way to think about being effective as an executive of this project in my laboratory. I want to ask you, do you have a routine besides, you know, cross-word puzzles, you know, and we'll get to that later. But besides doing the daily mini crossword puzzle, which I think I might have turned you on to, by the way, are you doing wordscapes yet? Have you taken my latest advice? I have not, but I've gotten really good at Spelling Bee. Yes. Oh, spelling V is great. I was a Queen Bee twice this week. Wow. You can add that to your CV because I know you're on the job market. they're looking hard for employment gainfully. Tell me, do you have daily routines, rituals,

habits? Do you think those are important or weekly ones? Obviously, family is first to you. But do you have like a daily routine? I know, I know you exercise a lot. What is your day, like, what does your day look like? I know you're wearing an aura ring like I am. So you must be kind of tracking things, right? Tell me, do you, I was joking to somebody, Marilyn. I said, I got the aura ring and they're like, oh yeah, I just got the new one, the gold one. I said, oh yeah, I got the invisible one. You see that? That's the generation four. But what is your daily routine like if you care to share it? Well, over coffee in the morning. I like to wake up with a spelling bay. I am lately learning French on Duo Lingo. So I try to do that a little bit in the morning

be while I'm brushing my teeth and fixing my hair, I'll do the conversational parts. But then I get to work. And I wish I could tell you that I was read. I had a regular amount that I read. I don't because I have a very bad habit that when I'm really enjoying, when I'm reading, I can't stop. So when I start a book, if I like it, I can't stop. So I really kind of time my personal reading to when I'm taking vacation or I really have the time to lose myself in a book.

So otherwise, it's just the articles. I like reading Quantum Magazine. But I always have a pile of reading that I want to get to. So it's next to my bed. It's on my desk. So I have all my shorter articles on my desk. So when I have a chance to read, I will. So it's, you know, I look forward to vacation.

time so I can immerse myself in something. And so those are- And I like crossword puzzles, as you said. And then in the evening, I can really relax and get competitive with Duolingo and make sure that I get my points for the day so I stay in the diamond league. That's the called gamification. You can turn habits into rewards mechanisms and the human brain releases a little dopamine when you do something good.

And yeah, maybe we can pivot to another topic. This is I asked Jim when he was on last year. And it has to do with maybe, you know, how you spend your time, how you spend your attention. You know, people say the most precious resource is time. And I agree with that. But I asked him, you know, another precious resource is money. And I asked Jim, you know, what is the purpose of wealth? Where do you see wealth as philosophically?

Does it mean anything? Does it mean, you know, oh, money is not important? No, I think it is. And what's your philosophy of philanthropy and of wealth in general? Because as I told Jim, you know, you can have a big boat, but you can only have one of them. You can't water ski behind two yachts at the same. So he said, you know, he definitely appreciates it. He likes the benefits of the wealth.

But for him, it's a type of tool. but I'm curious, what is wealth to you? So I would definitely say it's opportunity. As you're saying, there's only so much you could get. And if I am going out and buying gifts for people or going shopping for a new dress for myself, I make the joke that I'm going out to stimulate the economy. Practical micro-economics.

Yes. But, you know, having wealth, I see the business model. You invest, you earn income, and that's an income stream that you can use to support the things you really care about. So I've tried to really look for impact and evolve in my thinking. But I think that's what it is. the opportunity to have an impact and try to make the world a little bit better. You wish you could make it a lot better. You wish you could make a lot of things a lot better, but to focus and really try to bring

about some positive change. And I want to also extend a commendation to how great you are at getting gifts. And actually, I want to pivot that to a question. some people are curious about. Do you have a specific book? Let's just focus on books that you've given as a gift very frequently in your life and career. Is there one book or maybe a couple of books that you find you want to share so much with other people and that you give it to them as a gift besides my book.

My books. I know you give out those. Well, it's hard for me to tell. Like, I'm older now, so I can most, I can best remember the latest book that really had an impact on me. And that is a book called The Choice. And I'd have to look up the author's name. But it's a woman about a woman who survived Auschwitz. and she came here to the U.S. and became a psychoanalyst and ultimately worked on her whole life in thinking about,

and this is what she's talking about, that things happen in our lives, but we can choose how they impact us and how we move forward through them. And it's a remarkable story of her own resiliency. And it's really inspiring. And I have given that book out in my family. And we're hoping to have a little book club session to talk about that with each other. Oh, wow. That's great.

Yeah, I asked Jim the same question, and he had given me advice a book, his favorite book. Do you know what Jim's favorite book is, by the way, or most gifted book? No. It's called the captain. It's about a sea captain, I think in the early part of World War II, on a transport ship, but it's very, it's semi-fictional, although it's based on this true life story of these transport boats during World War II. Anyway, I found that fascinating because it's really a book about, it's a stealth leadership book. It talks about, you know, leading this, this group under extreme duress and challenges, et cetera. So you've spoken a little bit of mathematics and economics. I want to take just a quick detour to the year. I was born 1971, 50 years ago. You came into

the picture a little bit after that, but at least in my personal history, my universe. But in that year, that was the year the U.S. went off the gold standard. And a lot of it, economists I've listened to correlate that with the necessity, not just the optionality, but the necessity of women entering the workforce in many different fields. And I wonder, you know, is there a perspective on that you can give to young women? I have a lot of young women that listen to the show. You know, how do you balance, how did you balance your careers, plural, and raising your children amidst, you know, all the other activities that you had to do? Obviously, you didn't have to. It wasn't like, you know, inflation caused you to have to, you know, pick up a second job.

Although you weren't, you know, Jim's really financial success didn't take off until much later, I would say. But, you know, how do you balance out? What advice do you give to women that are struggling between, you know, raising a family, doing a job, being, having a life? You know, we always leave that out. You know, they need friends just like anybody else. They need distractions. They need respite and personal. How do you, what advice do you give to women nowadays?

Do you think it's getting better or do you think there's still a lot more we can do, specifically in the sciences? So I can't say that I had a wonderful master plan or that I didn't also struggle and talk with my friends as we struggled to find a reasonable balance between being more. moms and also having the stimulation of being involved in the workforce and being with our peers every day. So I, you know, I responded to the needs of our family, of my family at the time. So I did get my Ph.D. And I did have child care.

And I actually at that time, so I guess I started grad school somewhere around 76 or 78, something like that. I didn't I managed to fill in the form and get a green card for the lady who was working for me because it didn't occur to me to go to a lawyer to ask for help getting a green card

so I actually totally qualified for getting employing somebody who didn't have a green card. So that worked out. That fell into place. And I worked at home on my dissertation. And Yolanda really helped me with child care. But when my daughter was born,

she needed to go to therapy for extra help. And I felt like my family really needed me and that I needed to take her to therapy. And it would be hard to have a part-time job as an economist. And so my life took a different track than I had expected, but there was a need. And it turned out, Jim was very supportive of my getting involved. involved in not-for-profits. He liked the idea that somebody in the family was doing volunteer work, and I went on my first board. And that kind of worked out really well for me because I had time, a block of time,

or I could be project-oriented rather than full-time work. So a couple of boards, I realized I love the budget and finance committee. I really like, you know, thinking about how to make a not-for-profit of successful business, how to raise money for it. So as Jim started to be successful in his business, that's what made me say, hey, why don't we start our own foundation? And we didn't have, we had a lot of money by our standards then. We started with a million dollars.

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So let me give the spoiler alert. The spoiler alert, is I responded to need. Then I was lucky to find opportunities. And as my time allowed, my opportunities kind of evolved into more than I ever imagined. So that's the spoiler alert. So, you know, I said to, I say to people when I talk about our foundation,

Unlike Bill Gates of Warren Buffett, we didn't first make a fortune and then decide to give it away. We started small and it grew. It grew faster than we imagined. And we just kind of adapted and went with the change. And that's how the foundation happened. And it was a surprise. So I was lucky. So I think that bottom line, and maybe this ties back to my school motto from Catholic Girls' School,

just looking for opportunities, taking chances, going to trying out something new, and just making the most of it. So my school motto when I was a kid was, I am only one, but I am one. I can't do everything, but I can do something. And what I can do, I ought to do. And what I ought to do by the grace of God I will do. So, you know, I have, you know, that's, I think,

Something that has guided me. It's a paraphrase of something by someone who's, I think his name is H-A-L-A, maybe his first name is Everett. But, you know, just kind of taught me if I see something that needs to be done, I try to do it. That's wonderful. Yeah. So, yes. It kind of dovetails nicely into our final segments where we do discuss the existential questions of life. We'll get to that in a second.

But the last topic for the main segment of our conversation has to do with philanthropy, specifically in science. And I remember an article in the New York Times, you know, kind of decrying, well, you know, should these billionaires have so much influence in science? scientific funding. And I remember you just stopped that, you know, kind of dead in its tracks. And you stated that what are the unique benefits of private versus public and how private compares to public funding. So maybe you can recapitulate that. What's a response to somebody who says, oh, you know, it's not fair that Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Simon, they have so much

influence on things that should be the purview solely of the U.S. government. How do you respond to that marathon. I think the U.S. government does a great job. The NIH has, you know, really made the U.S. economy and the U.S. research system, the powerhouse that it is. Still, there were niches. There were risks to take. So there's a place for.

philanthropy, for, you know, those out there ideas. When I look at LIGO, I can only admire the National Science Foundation. And it's incredible commitment and vision to make that happen. that's nothing that any private philanthropists could do, but maybe just kind of seeding initial ideas to help them get to the level that they'll be more attractive to the government. You know, there are niches. I've also heard from John Holdren when we went there,

that there are some things that are harder for the government to do, like interdisciplinary research, to bring people in from across fields. And so there's a place to have an impact, but it's small. I mean, private philanthropy will always, hopefully, be dwarfed by what the U.S. government does. But I think that we also try to work with the government. We do have some partnerships at the Simon's Foundation with the National Science Foundation.

So there's also a role to play to supplement their efforts. So I think they like public-private partnerships. I think they do. And now it's not only percolating, you know, from traditional partnerships, you know, faculty, sabbatical to, you know, interdisciplinary collaborations between private and public foundations at the level of NSF, DOE, and beyond. I think you said once, you know, philanthropy should be like venture capital, which does combine your economic kind of background and your scientific philanthropy background. And I think that is a great model. And I heard you say once, you know, that a small foundation can be nimble and as wealthy as the foundation might be or as how many assets.

It's still pitifully small compared to, you know, just what the government spends in a single day. And so if it can be the catalyst, it can nucleate collaborations, it can catalyze things. And then that ultimately, I believe. And you can make a quick decision. Exactly. And that then allows the government to save money, which is what, you know, taxpayers should be most appreciative of that the foundation offsets the initial seed capital that's needed to, in this model, extend to benefits to the taxpayer, of which you know, you and I are both members

of the taxpaying public as well. I want to, you know, conclude with the existential questions that I ask all my guests and Jim, you can go back to, I'll have a link to Jim's interview if you want to see how he answered it. But I always ask what I call the thrilling three final questions that help get to the core of who you are as a kind of a heroine in the journey that you've gone on in your life, the challenges, the action, the epiphanies, the climaxes that you've had in your life, in your career. And I tie them in either philosophically or technically to Arthur C. Clark or the Bible. And so if you're willing, Marilyn, I would love to ask you in the remaining couple of minutes, these thrilling three questions. Would you mind answering and going into the

impossible? Okay. Okay. Let's do it. Okay. The first one is, what would you put in your ethical will, not your material will? Ethical wills are established since the time of, you know, the ancients and the Bible, even Alfred Nobel. And his Nobel Prize will, he had a requirement that the Nobel Prize go to those people who made the world a better place, the bettered mankind. And so I'm asking you, what kind of wisdom or thing knowledge have you learned? that you want to bequeath to your, not just your biological children, but your ideological children. So on my desk at the foundation, I had a sign that I made for myself to look at. And it was actually a quote from Plato. and it was always be kind for everyone is fighting a hard battle. And I like that reminder every day just to, you know, people matter and to really look at every person's humanness and know how we're all struggling.

So I use that as a reminder for myself. So I think I would definitely want to pass that on. Just be kind. We're all having a hard time and struggling. Yeah. Indeed. And the next question now goes a little bit deeper into the future. It goes, let's say, a billion years into the future.

and this is reminiscent of the movie 2001, a space odyssey, where these monoliths, these ominous kinds of structures that seem to be like time capsules or perhaps their warnings or signs of some kind placed by an unseen alien civilization maybe billions of years ago, and they're meant to be discovered maybe as a testimony to what they accomplished. So I want to ask you, in science specifically, and that you've been exposed to everything from the life sciences, autism science, physical sciences, cosmology, quantum mechanical systems, mathematics. Is there anything that you feel best encapsulates the accomplishments that the human species

has accomplished, the most stunning or striking accomplishment or accomplishments that humanity has achieved in just a short few hundred thousand years we've been an impact on the plan. So when you're talking about that, it kind of reminds me of that the movie or the play or story about Camelot. And I know that there was that song, tell everyone that there was once a fleeting wisp of glory. in Camelot. And, you know, Camelot was about trying to live together in perfect harmony. And I guess you talked about all these sciences, but, you know, I can't take credit for this.

I have to say that I heard Jim once say that if there's one science, we haven't made a lot of progress with, It's political science. And I kind of, you know, I think we are striving to learn to live in a world where we could get along together. And dealing with coronavirus or climate change that we're starting to see ourselves more as the biosphere that we are. So I guess just learning to live together in harmony with our planet, with each other, with all the other living things on this planet is something that I don't know how to encapsulate that idea, except to see that we are trying to do that. And science is helping us get there to understand.

understand our role in our biosphere. So I don't know what the short phrase is, if it's learn political science or like you're part of the biosphere and learn how to make this work. I think that's where we have to go. Wonderful. Okay, Marilyn, the last question will take us not to the future, but to your past.

sort of advice to your former self. And it's based on one of Arthur C. Clark's laws. He had all these different laws. And he said, the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. That's the origin and the name of my podcast. So I want to accordingly ask you what mysterious aspect of life perplexed you as a 20-year-old or 30-year-old.

And what kind of lesson would you teach to her? to give her the courage, to do as you've done, to go into the impossible. Is there any advice to your former self you can get? You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost.

Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get this. stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Make a plan, I think. I, um, you know, once I was talking, giving a toast and about a mathematician. And I learned that some, some mathematicians,

are mountains and some are rivers. I think that I've lived my life more as a river, going a little bit this way or that way. But being a mountain, I like climbing to the top and seeing what's up there when you get there. So, you know, a river has a little less of a plan I think I make a plan. So my river took me to some wonderful places.

Indeed. And hopefully you're just getting started in this new chapter in your journey. And I just want to relate a story, you know, possibly how Marilyn caused me to become an astronomer. And it relates back to a time she was with me as a young boy. I think I was four or five. my mom tells this story and I had the croup. And it was very serious back then to have the group. And, you know, every parent knows the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness of a kid that's

sick and how to take care of him. And so my mom was, you know, was busy with my sibling, like brother Kevin. And so you took me out on a very cold night in the middle of winter. And you said to me, according to my mom, that each snowflake was a falling star. And it just mesmerized me. And she credits that with perhaps my interest in astronomy. And I think it's fitting that, as we know, falling stars are fragments of asteroids that fall to Earth. And I want to also remind people that Marilyn Simons is the proprietor of asteroid number 10701, Marilyn Simons, 1981 P.F, discovered at Harvard.

In 1981, it has many, many fascinating characteristics, including the fact that it can orbit inside the orbit of the Earth. And you can find out more information at the Minor Planet Center. It was awarded to Marilyn Simon's American economist and philanthropist. She was, I think you were chair of the board of Cold Spring Harbor. And you founded the Stony Brook Women's Leadership Council, many things, fellowships, and was recently retired as the president of the Simons Foundation. And she supports basic math science and medical research around the world

and is now a member of the Legend of Honor. I want to thank you so much. We love you. We have utmost respect and gratitude for you in this holiday season, but throughout the year as well. I want to thank you for spending so much of your valuable time with myself and my audience today. Well, Brian, thank you. And can I tell a little story about you, though? Of course.

And your family that was like such an important part of my life. and the year I live with you and your mom and your brother, when I was a grad student, I think that was transformative in my life. And I just love the time that we were all together. I just want to say, you know, I spend a lot of time in outreach. And I don't know how you spark curiosity. That was a word you used a lot. And you were such a naturally curious child.

I would be so amazed at things that you knew when there didn't seem to be anybody teaching you these things. But you would just dazzle May with things that you would talk about. I remember one day in particular, though, and that your grandparents, grandfather came to visit. This was your mother's father. And he said to you and Kevin, want to go out on a safari. And we didn't, you didn't live in Africa. You lived on Long Island. And you're, you all got, you and Kevin got all bundled up to go out on a safari with your grandfather. And when you came back, you had walked around the neighborhood and just collected all these things that were natural around. Leave sticks, bugs, I know, whatever you could find. And I, that afternoon just stuck with me about just going on. and exploring your own neighborhood, not to go, you didn't have to fly across the globe.

It was right there. There was so much to explore in your own backyard and your own neighborhood. And you've really held on to a remarkable sense of curiosity and so much more. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, it's funny. You know, my motto on this channel is ABC, always be curious. And I find that is the most important, the most important tool. You know, passion is great.

Passion is kind of the spark that ignites the rocket, but you need that fuel. And I think curiosity can sustain a lifelong passion and hopefully use that to make the world a slightly better place. And you have made my world a better place since I've known you almost all my life. And my mother sends your love. It's mutual. It is. I want to just thank you for.

for sharing your time with us in my audience today. And I wish you the best of health and happiness in 2022, Maryland. All right. Same to you, Brian, and to your whole beautiful family. Thank you. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinctial from magic. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition.

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