Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - The Scientists BONUS EPISODE: The Giving Valve (inspired by Richard Dawkins' Selfish Gene)

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Starting point is 00:01:00 Hey, everybody. It is your fearful host, Professor Brian Keating. And you are listening to an audio essay. I haven't done one of these in a long time, maybe six months since I had on renowned consciousness expert, the Malibu Meditator. My sort of friend, I would say, Sam Harris, he and I have spoken a bunch since his episode. I don't think he was as upset as some of you were with that episode. But that was the last time I did one of these audio episodes, audio essays, rather. And I thought it would be kind of fun to reestablish these, maybe make it a regular segment. And the occasion of this one is the hosting of Richard Dawkins. My hosting of Richard Dawkins this past weekend in Vancouver, Canada.

Starting point is 00:02:06 and Richard is the only other living member of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I had on Corr's Dan Neal Dennett. I never had on Christopher Hitchens, although I spoke with Richard about that in Vancouver. And I spoke about Sam and Dan Dennett on my first of the two episodes I've done with Richard Dawkins so far. And, you know, he must have been rather pleased with those

Starting point is 00:02:32 because he did invite me to be his host. in Vancouver. They flew me up there first class all the way and put me up in a wonderful hotel and all expenses paid from here in San Diego all the way up to Vancouver. And I hadn't been to Vancouver in a long time. It's a beautiful city. I posted some pictures of the event, my time there on X. And I was privileged to be able to introduce him and speak in front of about 1,200 people live on a Sunday night in the middle of fall in Vancouver. It was quite a mind-blowing, experience for me. He's had on many other great hosts at live events. This is his final tour. And in fact, my event on Sunday, the 6th of October was the last event he ever will do

Starting point is 00:03:21 like this in North America. And it was the only one in Canada. So it was quite a privilege, as I said. And, you know, I love talking with him. I love debating. We don't agree on everything. We spent a couple hours together before the show, schmoozing him and his co-author slash partner, Yana Lanzova, who did the illustrations for his flights of fancy book and also for this book, which is quite wonderful, the genetic book of the dead. And he did enjoy it, and he did have on many other, you know, he had many people to choose from, including local Canadians who were probably myth that a San Diego flew up from the farthest possible point on the West Coast to Vancouver to do it, I took jobs away from Canadians, which is something I love to do.

Starting point is 00:04:11 But this episode is with Spencer Claven, and I thought it would be kind of interesting to compare and contrast my experience with Richard Dawkins and that of Spencer Clavin. Spencer is also unique. He's a gay conservative, an openly gay conservative, and he is quite erudite. and just a lovely scholar to talk to. But he's a believing Christian. Actually, his father was a convert to Christianity, so-called messianic Jew. He is Andrew Claven, who I've been on his podcast. And I met him, Andrew, two years ago in Italy,

Starting point is 00:04:48 and I met Spencer just this past year in Italy when I was an attendee at a conference sponsored by Peter Thiel. So Peter loves to bring together people from all different backgrounds, including atheists and secular people, Jews Christians, Christian Jews, Jewish Christians, all sorts of people. And he's had on many, as I said, non-believers, Heather McDonald, Michael Schumer, and many others. But, you know, sort of we practicing Jews and slash secular Jews were vastly numbered

Starting point is 00:05:23 at those conferences. But I have used it as an opportunity to consult and converse with people. and I actually was able to record an episode of the Hoover Institution's podcast Uncommon Knowledge with Peter Robinson and Luke Barnes and Jay Richards. And that was a wonderful experience for me and got over 100,000 views immediately on YouTube. They have a million subscriber channel

Starting point is 00:05:46 and great reach and hoping to do another episode with them in the future as well. So these conferences, Peter Thiel puts on completely his own expense. These are quite expensive. Many, many dozens of people come to Italy for a week at a sumptuous hotel in Florence, and that is just one of the best experiences that an intellectual can have. Find food, fine wine, find discussions in sumptuous

Starting point is 00:06:12 surroundings. I'll tell you more about that in the future if you're interested in learning more about those things that Peter Thiel also speaks at these conferences, and I enjoy them greatly, and again, we're surrounded by great intellects, and it's just a wonderful experience. But this audio essay is not about any of those people, no far from it. It is inspired by my new friend Professor Dawkins, who I've come to know over the past few months since I received his latest book, The Genetic Book of the Dead, and then had this wonderful, unique opportunity to be the last person to host him on his final tour in North America. And at age 83, I have to say, I hope that good looking and his face is like.

Starting point is 00:06:58 like a 25-year-old, you know, Scandinavian, you know, face cream model. It's just amazing. He's so well preserved for an 83-year-old. And he is also incredibly energetic. He had a very bad cold, which I've developed a little bit of it. You could probably hear. But he still did the tour anyway after just arriving the day before from Portland, the day before that, hosted by Michael Shermer in San Francisco and soon to be hosted by my good friend Peter Bogassian in Europe and many other people. And he's also had a great time in Austin, Texas. He was hosted by Chris Williamson. And he's really just a renowned individual, just intellect combined with this incredible energy,

Starting point is 00:07:46 something like 20 tour dates and 30 days in America and then an equal amount coming up in the UK and Europe. He'll be in Belgium with Peter Bogosian. find out more information on his website, Richard Dawkins Tour.net, something like that. So I wanted to have a discussion with you or maybe a monologue with you about my thoughts on something that Richard inspired me to

Starting point is 00:08:14 after preparing for the episodes. You know, I'm not good at a lot of things, I think. You know, my day job is a cosmologist. I think I'm pretty good as a professor, but very good at preparing for these interviews, and I do enjoy it. Maybe I'm not the greatest at being a podcast host, but I think my record kind of speaks for itself

Starting point is 00:08:36 in terms of getting the most out of my conversations in a unique way and bringing a unique angle as an experimental physicist. It's very rare. He's had people, again, hosting him like Michael Shermer and Chris Williamson and Colin Wright and many others, Kamel, as well as friends, hosted him in Newark, New Jersey,

Starting point is 00:08:57 in front of 5,000 people. But I think I bring a different perspective as a real professor operating every day. You know, this podcast is more of a hobby and a side hustle, not a source of income or, you know, aspirations to be in the memosphere and just wanting to share my thoughts that I've gleaned from reading 500 books

Starting point is 00:09:18 in the past four years and doing that number of episodes on the Into the Impossible Podcast. So I think I'm not. I prepare really well. In the preparation, I came upon his book, The Selfish Gene, which appeared almost 50 years ago. It's incredible just after I was born in the 1970s, 1976. And that was kind of a revolutionary book. It wasn't necessarily postulating, you know, unknown theories of biology or evolution. He's a zoologist, after all. But in that book, he did propose that

Starting point is 00:09:54 genes are the fundamental units of natural selection, and that they act selfishly in their own interest to ensure their own survival and propagate into future generations. And this is not at the DNA level. This is a more holistic encapsulation of the genetic legacy, if you will, of the organism. So a lot of his books deal with genetics, not necessarily at the, you know, psychological level or what have you, but the impetus and why different aspects of the gene and our genotypes manifest in what he calls the extended phenotype. And that is another thing he's known for. And by the way, he coined, I think, in that same book, the concept of the meme, a cultural

Starting point is 00:10:43 element, a nugget like a gene that propagates and spreads. It could be spread virally. And so that was a great contribution to culture. And obviously, if you've ever shared a photograph of the bad boyfriend or Drake. And as I said in my introduction to Richard in Vancouver, you know, Elon Musk owes him not an insignificant amount of meme coins, of doge coin. And I hope that will receive it. So I want to talk about a related thought that I had upon rereading and re-encountering the selfish gene. And that was maybe in contrast, not to disagree, but to provide what I think is more valuable to all of us than genes. And I want to explain it, and something I call the giving valve, hopefully that'll be made more apparent.

Starting point is 00:11:35 Originally, I thought of it as calling it the altruistic valve, but I think the giving valve makes a little bit more sense. I fundamentally think that what's important to us is the only really conscious in the way that we are individuals, Richard and I, both deride concepts like panpsychism and so forth. But what really matters is not your genetic material being, you know, sprayed into the future so that future generations can propagate some sequences of a quaterniary code. But rather, what matters to each of us is actually that our values get propagated. That's our legacy. In other words, it sort of parallels this wisdom versus knowledge dichotomy that I always try to

Starting point is 00:12:19 explore. You know, I've interviewed 21 Nobel Prize winners coming up soon as Catalan Carrico, my most recent interview with the Nobel laureate, inventor of the COVID-19 vaccine co-inventor. And I often want to explore for my own benefit, if not for your benefit, as the audience, the notion of whether or not a sufficient amount of knowledge can equal wisdom. In other words, if you just have enough knowledge, are you functionally equivalent to something with wisdom. You know, will chat GPT-5-0 strawberry preview, whatever, will that eventually become not only artificial general intelligence, but artificial general wisdom? And I think not, as I've explained in many conversations that I've had with leading consciousness thinkers, but I'll save that,

Starting point is 00:13:12 you know, kind of conjecture for another audio essay perhaps, but I want to focus on what I believe is more significant, and that's the transmission of our values. So to recap some from the selfish gene, you know, humans share over 50% of our genetic material with fruit flies and not too dissimilar amount with bananas. So when you consider that, and then you consider furthermore, the 99% similarity with chimpanzees, there's something special about that minuscule, you know, 1% difference. If you shared 99% of your net worth with Elon Musk, that wouldn't be much of a difference between 99% of Elon. Study and play.

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Starting point is 00:14:25 ends June 30th, turns at AKA.m.m.S. slash college PC. And your wealth, or, you know, and his wealth. But that minuscule 1% difference accounts for the remarkable distinction in our own, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:40 phenotype, genotype, that makes us distinct. And that's that 1% is by itself equal to, an entire universe, if you think about it. It accounts for our language, our social structure, cooperation, science, development of science, technological innovation, or memory. I don't believe we share the same memory capacity as a chimpanzee. All these things that are so different,

Starting point is 00:15:07 and not just pure intelligence that were more raw intelligence or brain size. Richard, you know, talked about the concept that you've all know a Harari, who has, I've invited on, but has not replied yet, but, you know, join the club, you know, suggests that in 100 or 200 years, homo sapiens will be subservient to a new genus of homo of hominid that comes around. And Richard thinks that's likely to be true, that these augmented humans or these AI-enabled, you know, transmetah humans will really supersede homo sapiens and will be left in the dust. Now, what does homo sapien mean? It means man who knows. It's not homociencia, which means a man who has knowledge, homo sapiens.

Starting point is 00:15:54 It means a hominid that is sapient, that is wise, not one that is pure knowledge. That would be homociences. So it does raise the question of this 1% difference, this one critical percent. Where does it reside? And what does it manifest itself in? I'd like to think that it manifests itself in those very distinct capabilities, language, complex social structures, technological innovation,

Starting point is 00:16:20 those are all shared by other animals, but not at the level that we have, but there's one thing that no animal has, and that's a value system. And so if that's tiny genetic variation leads to such profound differences in our social structures, language, cooperation, science, shouldn't we also kind of treasure

Starting point is 00:16:40 and maximize the unique 1% difference in the ways that truly matter, which is in our value system? So I want to talk about this, this difference in what humans can achieve, not just in terms of those three, you know, properties I talked about thinking, problem solving, and language and science, etc. But those are important. They enable us to, you know, decode the mysteries of the cosmos in my case and study subatomic particles and understand, you know, how biological systems work and all the incredible discoveries that science. has provided. But, you know, kind of the ultimate and intellectual curiosity still is important, but it's not really at the level of something of crucial importance to you or me. And I'll explain

Starting point is 00:17:31 that. Yes, it's true, and we're proud of it as a species, but on a daily basis or even in a lifetime, your legacy is not really what you did. You talk about famous book by David Brooks, I think in The Road to Character, he talks about these two different types of virtues, resume virtues, you know, things you brag about, what college you went to, where you're a professor, if you want a Nobel Prize. And then there's eulogy virtues where somebody bespeaks of what you meant as a husband, father, wife, sister, daughter, etc. And that's what people really care about. By the way, that comes from Rabbi Salavichik's concept of Adam 1 and Adam 2 and the Torah and the Old Testament and Genesis, beginning of Genesis. There are two almost identical descriptions of Adam, the first human being.

Starting point is 00:18:26 And again, this is not a science topic, but it's a question of morality and wisdom connected to our values. And in that duplicative discussion of Adam, which many atheists and skeptics used to point out the fallibility and the falsehood of the Bible of the Torah, they say, oh, there's two different descriptions and they disagree. That's not really the message. The message is to, and I'm not being an apologeticist, I'm just explaining how at an advance level, and I studied the Torah, the Old Testament, and the original Hebrew and Aramaic. So I can hold my own with people like Spencer. Even though I'm a scientist and my day-to-day life is to study the 14 billion-year-old universe,

Starting point is 00:19:12 not believe that it is 5,785 years old, literally, and I do want to wish you all a happy new year, Shana Tauva. But when we think about these two different atoms in the Torah, there's a type of atom that plows the fields and makes a living and has a wife and has kids, and then there's the one who prays to God and supplicates and make sacrifices.

Starting point is 00:19:37 And that is sort of the eulogy virtue versus the resume virtue. You know, on Adam's tombstone, it says, you know, he plowed the fields for a couple hundred years. No, it doesn't say that. It says he was a father. And he also, you know, he has one fewer rib and then his wife, for reasons we're not going to get into.

Starting point is 00:19:53 But the point is that we're made up of these two diametrically opposed sorts of aspects in that, on your eulogy, no one's going to say, you know, Brian Keating went to brink. went to Brown University for his PhD. Nobody cares. They're going to care I was as a father, a son, a brother, a friend, husband. Hopefully I said that at least once for my wife, who's listening.

Starting point is 00:20:15 So it's not just our capabilities, not just our knowledge, it's not just our genes. You know, he was healthy. He ran a five-minute mile, which I couldn't aspire to. Someday or, you know, I played tennis in high school. No, nobody cares about my genetics. That won't matter. and no one will remember, as it's often said, a man dies twice once when he physically departs

Starting point is 00:20:37 and the last time his name has ever said. I don't know if I really believe that. There's some people that never die then. And they're not undead because they live forever genetically or biologically. They're undead and they live on because their contributions to the world

Starting point is 00:20:55 made a big difference. So I explore this concept and contradistinction to the selfish gene, and I call it the giving valve, where a valve, instead of being a gene, the gene is the unit of genetic and physical, biological encapsulation, encoding the uniqueness of the chromosomes and the genetic makeup of an individual. And those, I agree with Richard, they have a desire in a categorical imperative to move into the future and lodge themselves and spray themselves out

Starting point is 00:21:29 into posterity. But that's not what matters to us. It's our values. It's our values. that we choose to pass down. That's what matters. And you don't have to have kids, by the way. I do think it's important for people to have children if they can or raise children, adopt children. I'm adopted. And because of that, you know, there are different kind of perspectives than I have.

Starting point is 00:21:48 So not just biological, but you can influence people ideologically. And I often talk about that when I discuss the ethical will, the Zava Ah, in Hebrew, that I often ask every Nobel laureate that comes on the podcast. So let me ask you a question. you a question to illustrate this. What would you prefer to have? Would you like to have 10 children? It would be a lot except if your name is Musk, who has at least two more. We don't know exactly there are Poisson uncertainties and how many kids he has. But would you like to have 10 children who are, you know, which is an enormous number, it's five standard deviations in America

Starting point is 00:22:22 from the average. Would you rather have 10 children who are your political opposites, your religious opposites converted to different religions? Maybe they became atheists or maybe you're an atheist. and they became religious. My father used to feel that way too. He'd say, I don't believe in God, but I believe in the devil because he made you become more spiritually active in Judaism. Or would you rather have one child? Just one.

Starting point is 00:22:46 Who shares and upholds your deepest values. It's amazing. Our genes, as Richard says, I agree 100%. They ensure our biological survival, but our values ensure the survival of meaning. And this perspective shift from genetic legacy to a legacy, to a legacy of values is the essence of what I call the giving valve, the giving being an altruistic act,

Starting point is 00:23:06 giving by its nature, without any expectation thereof. So it kind of flips the script where genes operate on survival, competition, and have to be possessed as virtue of selfishness, valves, as I call them, represent the flow of values, wisdom, ethics, compassion, not for your individual gain, but for the collective good of future generation.

Starting point is 00:23:29 To me, that's about instilling ethical frameworks that will guide society many, many generations after we're gone. Again, you don't think about someone's genetics. We don't know anything about Moses's genetics or Jesus' genetics. And similarly, we don't know much about Galileo's genetics. People like Isaac Newton didn't have any children. But we can see it manifested in many cultural and religious practices. In my religion, I just mentioned, ethical wills or Zaba-A, these appear in Orthodox Judaism.

Starting point is 00:24:02 In the Torah, Jacob blesses his children with a blessing of wisdom, how they should act. Again, I'm not taking it literally, but just when you take it seriously, you look at how unlike a legal will that bequeaths material possessions and ethical will passes down your values,

Starting point is 00:24:19 your moral guidance, and your spiritual beliefs, if any. And it could be atheist. Moses did the same thing at the end of Deuteronomy. And I know my Mormon friends have a problem, a family ceiling, I believe it's called, where family members are bound together eternally. It goes beyond the spiritual beliefs. It's a moral commitment to uphold a set of values

Starting point is 00:24:39 that transcend individual lifetimes. Genealogical work and baptisms for the dead as they practice it reflect a deep commitment to ancestors and descendants. And that's what I'm emphasizing. Your legacy is of your shared values, not your genetic chemical makeup of GATC's, and G's and A's and T's and C's.

Starting point is 00:25:03 So in both these faith traditions, the focus isn't on being perpetuating sacks of chromosomes, but on transmitting values. And that's the heart of what I call the giving valve. While our biological makeup certainly is significant, it's the ethical and moral compass we leave behind that really will be your legacy, your eulogy, if you will. So with the rise of AI and large language models,

Starting point is 00:25:27 concerns about existential threats are numerous, and I worry about those too, but I take comfort in the fact that these systems of large language models have no values whatsoever. That's way more than a 1% difference. It's not just the realm of bits and atoms that I study, but it's the values that make us human, and no AI can replicate that. So how do we maximize this distinction? I say, you know, take on descendants, either biological or ideal. prioritize how you can cultivate your ideology to be helpful to future generations. Remember, Homo sapient, wisdom, man. That's what we are, men and women. By focusing like this, we can enhance our lives and really enrich the things that are most valuable. The giving valve is a conduit

Starting point is 00:26:17 through which our most cherished values can flow into the future, shaping humanity in ways that genes alone cannot. Like genetics, it's a one way of It's a one-way street. You can't be influenced from the future, not yet at least. But in our world, we're so obsessed with genetic legacy, survival, procreation, just spraying genes out. I know for a fact. Elon Musk said that one of his kids is dead to him. That's an awful thing to say, by the way, and I hope to someday get him to flesh out that concept that he talked about with Jordan Peterson. Jordan's a friend. I've had Elon's, you know, intention on the podcast earlier this year for 15. minutes. I hope to get him back on. I do want to talk to him about that respectfully. What does that mean?

Starting point is 00:27:02 Does it mean that he regrets another human being? As a father, it's hard for me to hear that. It makes me emotional. So in a world of success with genetic legacy and survival, let's look at the things that we care about. And that to me is transmitting our values and doing so. We can embrace the giving valve and make a conscious effort to pass down not just our genes, but the very best of what and who we are, what makes us human. Anyway, that's it. Now on to the interview with Spencer Claven, we'll turn it over to my introduction

Starting point is 00:27:36 that I made for that episode. I hope you enjoy it. And let me know in a review what you thought of this audio essay. You can leave a review. It's only on audio you're not going to see on the podcast. On Apple podcast, an audible podcast,

Starting point is 00:27:49 and on Spotify, you can leave feedback. And leave a rating, if you would as well. Don't forget to follow, even if it's a hate follow. I appreciate all of you. Happy New Year to those that observe and talk to you on the flip side of this introduction. Bye-bye.

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Into the Impossible With Brian Keating - The Scientists BONUS EPISODE: The Giving Valve (inspired by Richard Dawkins' Selfish Gene)

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