Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - Ashley James: Motherhood, Body Image, Birth Trauma & Why Women Need to Stop Shrinking Themselves

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Ashley James joins Gemma Atkinson and Claire Sanderson for a powerful and deeply honest conversation about motherhood, body confidence, women's health and finding your voice. Known for her broadcasting career, activism and new book Bimbo, Ashley reflects on growing up in a world that taught women to take up less space and how she's spent years unlearning those messages. She opens up about the sexualisation she experienced as a teenager, the pressure women face to look a certain way, and why health should never be defined by body size.  Ashley also shares her experience of birth trauma, prolapse, postnatal recovery and the reality of life after having children – highlighting the support she believes women deserve but too often don't receive.  Together, the trio discuss: The pressure to "bounce back" after childbirth Postpartum health, prolapse and recovery Diet culture and the rise of weight-loss injections Raising daughters and sons in today's world Misogyny, social media and modern womanhood Ashley's new book, Bimbo This is a thoughtful, empowering conversation about health, confidence and why women deserve better. If you've ever felt pressured to be smaller, quieter or "less", this episode is for you. Want more from Women’s Health? Join the Women’s Health COLLECTIVE for workouts, exclusive events and expert advice to unlock your fittest self - Train smarter. Live better. Visit www.womenshealthmag.com/uk/wh-podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Gem Atkinson. And I'm Clare Sanderson. We've just recorded an episode of Just As well with the wonderful Ashley James, who was discussing her new book, Bimbo, amongst so many other things.

I mean, she's a women's health cover star. She's done her first cover shoot, which she did yesterday. She's available now, by the way, so please do check it out. She looks fab. But she was brilliant. She spoke very honest and open about her postpartum.

She had a prolapse about her love-hate relationship with a body, why she dropped out of sport in school. It was endless, wasn't it? At the root of this book is an analysis of misogyny and systemic discrimination against women and terminology that we put upon ourselves, like we call ourselves mumsy, or we say we're going to wear our granny pants,

which is that's disparaging towards grannies. What's wrong with grannies? They wear pants. It's a really smart thought through book, part confessional, part societal analysis of the culture that we live in where women are encouraged to shrink and not take up space

and not own the room and not speak up for fear of sounding bossy and not have curves because we seem to all be told that shrinking and becoming smaller, is better with the emergence of GLP1s. It was a really interesting chat actually. She has an awful lot to say.

She was also very honest about her experience. She came out and she says in the book she was actually raped when she was younger. And she explains how she's finally been able to shift the shame onto the man who attacked her and not her. And, you know, so if anyone has experienced anything similar to what Ashley's gone through, and so bravely spoken about,

then, yeah, please, please do speak to someone. That's her message. There's no shame and, you know, you should always, always speak out. So, yeah, please enjoy this episode. And Ashley's book, Bimbo, is now out and her women's health cover is now out. Enjoy. And if you do enjoy this episode,

please like and subscribe and share with your friends so we can grow even bigger. Thank you. Ashley, welcome to Jess as well. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So we are recording this the day after your first woman's health cover shoot, which was yesterday. I can't believe it.

Do you know what? It was such a good day. I feel like everyone there was buzzing and it was just so exciting. I can't believe it. I'm a woman's health cover. And it will be on sale today. So the same day that this podcast is going out, your magazine will be on the new stands and available online.

So for people to go and grab a copy of. So exciting. I'm definitely going to be that person. goes out and buys like 10. Yes. Can you go into like W.H. Smith and reorganise the new stands? Yeah. I'll do that. I promise you, I will do that.

My partner Tommy did say he was like, oh, we're going to have to get another frame. And my house is like slowly just becoming a shrine to my achievements. He works in tech. So he was like, what can I have up in the house? You can just put them up of me. But yeah, congratulations. We've seen some of the pictures, aren't we, on the mood board. And you look amazing.

I mean, you genuinely look so. beautiful and when it comes to women's health obviously the term is the word health have you always felt in a healthy place in terms of your mental and physical well-being or was it like a work in progress i feel like um i mean this is basically the whole premise of my book but i feel like i was definitely born confident um my little girl she's three now but i'd say she is still that confident girl that I think we all are when we're born like the way she looks at herself in the mirror like whether it's her face

her body and I'm always like it's so cool that we literally are born loving ourselves like she zooms in and she like looks at her face and looks at her like tummy and she's always talking about how much she loves my tummy because it's where her home was and I think over the years you just become more aware

of all the like problems and all the things that you perceive as flaws and you gain loads of insecurity And I definitely, I feel lucky to an extent that I think until I was about 14, I didn't have any physical concerns or hang-ups. I always kind of had anxiety, I'd say, from probably about 11. I think I started my period really young at 11, and I remember for getting really, really anxious.

But yeah, I'd say around 14 was when I grew boobs. And that's when I started to feel like my body was no longer just like. like my own and it was kind of like a talking point and a source of shame. You've spoken at length in your book and on other podcasts that you've been on about how your body became sexualised by boys and older men from a very young age. There was one instance that I read that you, a man stopped you in the street when you were about 12 or 13 and asked you if you were a model. and you were a working class girl from up north

and he was this man saying he could make you famous in London and before you knew it he was asking you to take your top, reveal your cleavage and lower and lower. And this was on a backstreet where you grew up. Yeah, so Carlisle is about 20 minutes of my house. I was kind of like banging the middle of Carlisle in Newcastle. And yeah, he came and said, you know, it's like I used to dream about being a model and my auntie lived in London, my cousins.

And so coming down to London was like, the most exciting thing ever. I mean, even knowing that my auntie lived in the same area as blue, that blew my mind. So, yeah, for somebody to come up to me and be like, like with my help, I can help you make it in London, like I'm about to get the train to London. Like, it's so obvious as an adult,

and even as a, I guess, like an older teenager, what that person's motives were. When I look back at so many of the situations that have happened to me, the chapter of my book is called Silly Girl because I think that is the attitude as a society that we always kind of put the blame on the woman or on the girl

of putting themselves in that situation but yeah he basically was taking pictures and then he was like can you put your top a bit lower can you put your top a bit lower yeah the agency is really important for them to see what size your boobs are because that depends on what campaigns you get can you just put it a little bit lower

and I still like shudder at the thought of because obviously he I never heard from him again and I realise as an adult that he probably didn't work for an agency. And yeah, it's just horrible to think that somewhere out there, there is a picture of me with my cleavage out. And you were about 13? Yeah, I feel like I must have been 13, 14. 14 was when I had like double G boobs.

So that was like, but I think I might have been a little bit younger. But there were so many instances that I didn't even write in the book of being sexualized and having quite problematic experiences as a young child navigating. I suppose the body of an adult, but still being a child. And it's funny because for a lot of young girls, like me and my sister used to do, you put tissue in your brow to make your boobs look bigger. But then when you actually do have bigger boobs in real life,

when my boobs grew, I was then in baggy t-shirts because I didn't want the boys to see them. But then as a young woman, I was, making money doing shoots in my lingerie and I absolutely loved it. So for me, it changed at every different life stage. But I think for girls, like you say, 11, 12, 13, 14, more than half of girls drop out of school sports just because of their body changes. You know, like the hips get wider, the boobs get bigger.

And that's the number one reason why girls stop doing something that they're naturally in some cases so good at just because of how they look, which there could be athletes walking around, women who could be athletes walking round, but because of how they look, they've stopped doing what they love. I stopped doing sport at school for a while, and before that I was running county for cross-country and I also did discus until the weights of the discus changed. As a child, I was representing my county with discus and, yeah, when my boobs grew, I also went to an all-boys school, so it was like a particularly horrific environment, I think,

for young women and especially young women with boobs. Some of the things that happened at school like something called de kegging where the rugby boys would run after you and try and pull your pants down. And it would always be the girls that were like told off if we laughed or screamed, that was us seeking attention

as opposed to like dealing with that really problematic behaviour. And I remember being about 14, 15 and the first 15 rugby team seeing me and running after me and I was on my period and I also hadn't shaved, to which back then the thought of having pubic hair, again, something's so weird and problematic that even just as you're getting pubic hair,

you see it as problematic. But I remember thinking, I can't let the boys see me on my period or I didn't know if my tampon string was in or I didn't know if I had like pubic hair. And that felt like social suicide. So rather than me thinking, that's unacceptable behaviour and that should never happen.

And it was more that I was worried about my own, like, survival in a way. But yeah, it was always that we were told off for our reaction. It's horrible. I remember being in the recovery position, but with sport, the boys would always comment on my boobs, and I remember wearing, like, two sports bras,

but I just hated having to walk past them. And, yeah, eventually I quit sport. And I never really got back into it properly because also I lost my confidence with it because I'd had a couple of years out of hockey and netball. I just didn't feel like good enough to go back to it properly. But you say you went to an all-boys school? You went to a predominantly male school.

No, it was an all-boy school. So there were like over 500 boys. It had been a boy school for over 500 years. And then the year that I started when I was 14, they decided to basically like open the door to girls. So I was the year before GCC's. Then there was a year below. There was no year above because that was GCC year.

Then there was a lower six, but not an upper six. So there were 37 of us in total, seven girls in my year. And then, yeah, it's all boys. And also a lot of boys who are angry. that the school's reputation as a boy's school was being ruined by girls. Right, girls. So let's take you back to your childhood. People will assume that you were from London

because you were in Made in Chelsea, which is a reality TV show from the not quite the naughties, the 2010s. Yeah. For posh, rich people who live around Chelsea, you know, the Spencer Matthews of this world was on the Millie Mac. but actually you're from up north and your background is working class. Yeah.

So my dad was a fireman and a farmer. He quit farm when I was about six, but we'd come from a family of farmers. And yeah, he was like a truck driver. So often we run a scholarship to boarding school, which is why my accent changed. But my dad would take me and my brother in his truck before going to work at boarding school.

So I was joke that we were probably the only people in the history of boarding school to ever get dropped off in a wagon. And then my mum had a hairdressers. And then we lived in a bed and breakfast that they owned. So when my dad quit the farm, that's what they did. So, yeah, they always work two jobs. And I think for them, like, their real focus for us was like they wanted us to have the education that they didn't have because of the farm.

So, yeah, I lost my accent because, mainly because I got it semi-bullied out of me when I started school because everyone was like, Have you heard the new Geordie girl? Go on, say something. And I think when you're eight, you just want to fit in and I didn't want to be like the token Geordie girl. But then I think it was weird because at school I was always kind of seen as not quite like them.

But then at home I went back with a posh accent and then I felt like I didn't quite belong in either space. Because you've said you've had experience not feeling enough and the roots of that must be in that experience. to come from this working class world to be put in what is ostensibly an upper class world where you don't belong, but as you say, to then go back to your home environment

where you feel quite removed from your village, your family, because you sound different and maybe behave differently. Yeah, I feel like there's lots of like different elements at play, isn't there? Because there's like, obviously for some people race, for some people class, as a woman, we have also like misogyny and sexism.

So I think so many of us, grow up feeling not enough because of, you know, kind of being made to feel like we have to shrink, whether that's being told that we're too bossy or too loud or too opinionated. And then obviously all the labels, whether it's like you're too slutty or too prudish, like I feel like we're always kind of shrinking ourselves to try and be a good girl and then a good woman. But then I guess like the class element is still not really talked about. But yeah, when I did Maiden Chelsea and I told my parents, my mum was like, but would you not have been better off doing Geordie Shaw?

I was like, I feel like if you watched it, you'd be really glad. But again, it kind of really reinforced that deep down, kind of insecurity of not quite feeling like I belonged or feeling like I almost had to perform in different environments. And I think so many of us in our 20s are like people pleases. And I've also been a really high achiever. Like at school, I always wanted to get the best grades or be the best at anything I did. And when I came into this industry, you know,

I wanted to be like the best and the most successful. And yeah, it was almost like a completely different set of rules suddenly that I was trying to follow. But yeah, it is it's not funny that people have assumptions because I understand why they did because I did the show made in Chelsea. But it's funny to us knowing that our background was so different. And you said that when it obviously you played sport and then you struggled to get back into it because of confidence. So did you then exercise at all? just for health or to, you know, for certain reasons,

it wasn't as a performance as in sport. Yeah, so I think my relationship with exercise, again, like when you look back when you're younger, I still have like so many scars on my chin because I used to love my Pogo stick. Makes me sound like I was born in the Victorian times. But I love my Pogo stick. And that is a form of exercise.

If you think if you were to do it now, it would be pretty tiring. And I'd spend all day, we had like in the bed and breakfast, there was like 56 steps down to the bottom of the guard. And I remember I'd be like going up and down on my Pogo Stick all day long or skipping or like even playing like mams and dads in the school playground. You'd just always be like running around and moving. But you weren't like, oh, better go do my Pogo Stick. It was kind of like intuitive and just like moving for fun. And then obviously at school, sport was just very much part of it.

And I really loved it. Like I loved running for my county. I love doing tennis in the summer and netball and playing all the different matches. And it was just never really something that I've. thought of and I certainly never thought of it as like punishment and then obviously I had the kind of gap because of like my own body confidence struggles I guess with my boobs and um then I think by the time I went to uni and then moved to London the narrative around exercise had really changed I think whether that was like signs outside of gyms like no pain no gain and it was all kind of like very like

punishing and even you know the friends I made at uni like so many people they're amazing amazing people but it would be like oh I ate too much day I'm going to have to go to the gym and so then I kind of yeah no car I mean it was pre no calves four marbles but it was very much that like and so as I moved to London and got into my 20s and live with a group of girls we'd almost like try to go without eating as long as we could throughout the day and then when one of us cracked it would be like oh we're going to have to go to the gym now so I think it was such a toxic attitude. It was just constant, like, restriction and punishment, restriction, punishment.

And obviously, you can't win at that because we know that diets don't work. And also it robbed me of so much other elements. Like I wasn't able to think about anything else because I was A hungry, but also thinking constantly about what I was going to eat. I mean, I was constantly doing like math's equations with calories and I'd not have, like, proper healthy food or nourishing food. but I'd have like a packet of kettle chips and that would be like me for the day. So yeah, it's really sad and then it took me a long time of really hating myself and really feeling unworthy. And I think coming into like the sort of celebrity world,

it did make me feel like if I could be perfect, which I saw perfect as being the smallest version of myself. I remember having Emily Rattajowski on my phone as like, like my thin spote and she is amazing and she has an amazing body but there are so many beautiful amazing women of all shapes and sizes and there's no point wanting someone else's body because you're always going to have your body and um it was yeah it was it was so awful and it affected like my my sense of self like my worth i thought my value my the ability for someone to love me I thought it all depended on me being like this kind of perfect person so any heartbreak a head or any sense of, like, rejection, I'd be like, oh, if I could just look more perfect, then people

would see it. They'd think I was, like, that I was lovable. So then that's when I started to find slowly, very slowly, like, a way back to happiness and confidence. And, like, for me, that was, like, learning to move my body in a much more enjoyable way. I'm listening to you and nodding furiously, because so much of it feels familiar. to me and how I treated my body back when I was younger and the self-criticism, criticism I loaded upon myself. And I feel sorry for young Ashley and who, you know, the person that she's describing,

I think, well, do I feel sorry for young, clear? Because I went through that as well. And there will be so many women listening to this today who beat up on themselves. You use the phrase punched down on you. I've heard you described like women punch. down on each other, but we punch down on ourselves, don't we? And it's tragic and terrible, and we're all mums of girls here now.

So we absolutely do have a responsibility to break that cycle. But I also feel, I feel sorry for my younger self, but I also, like, I understand. And I think that's what we have to remember, like, we are taught to hate ourselves. We are taught, like, even I remember, like, adults saying to me when I was little, like, oh, enjoy eating what you can now. Because when you get to my age, it'll stick to your hips, or, oh what a big portion for really young girl and so we're constantly absorbing

this notion that I remember every year that in my 20s I'd be like I wonder what age it's going to start sticking to my hips and like we're fed all of that and then obviously if you look at like things like Friends, Friends was obviously like such a big part of our upbringing and you had like Monaco with like being

fat shame like Fat Monica and I suppose you still have it now in a way with so many TV shows like you know there's this notion that if you're bigger then you're not lovable And it's really sad. And I think we had like a really beautiful period of body confidence and body diversity. And it felt like there was progress and it felt really exciting to be part of that movement

because it was like maybe it will be different for future generations. And obviously now it feels like so many other things. It's just regressed. Yeah, but we're going the other way. We've spoken to many guests on this podcast about the emergence of GLP1s, which when used properly for some people can be a life save. and absolutely not critical of them as a medication themselves, but they are being misused.

And then you have women on red carpet who are looked up to and worshipped by teenagers, young girls, who are visibly shrinking before our eyes. And the celebration of different body shapes, and by that I mean strong body shapes as well, because there was not so long ago really strong representation of women was being celebrated, did big shoulders, big glutes and stuff,

but that seems to be disappearing and instead replaced by very, very small women. Yeah, I saw an article today. It was an American newspaper, but I can't remember which one now, and it said Demi Moore shows off her toned arms. And, like, Demi Moore is amazing, and I don't even want to talk about her body

because actually everything she's achieved as an actress should be the focal point, but as usual, a woman is always reduced to her body and the way she looks, and it said something about her toned arms. And it's like, but her arms aren't toned. That is not what a toned arm. That is a skinny arm.

And I think it's such a toxic message. And I think, you know, even looking at health, the word health, I would say that so many people associate health with shrinking and with being small. And as I can only speak for myself, but as I know, when I looked to what the outside would call my healthiest, aka my smallest, I was so unhealthy. And I mean that mentally, physically. that I wasn't eating any food that was nourishing.

Like I said, I was in that cycle of trying to restrict myself for as long as possible, then probably binging on something because obviously I was starving and it would be something quick and with no nutritional value, like a packet of kettle chips. And then my alcohol intake was so bad because I was always like so stressed. My obviously mental health was everywhere. And I think for me, having a baby really made me completely look at, I think feel respect for my body and realize that actually I've been trying to love my body for so long.

And I'd say that I did get to a point of like body acceptance long before I had kids. But it made me think like, wow, we do something so incredible. Like our body, it's like it's like a modern day miracle really that we can like grow a life from our body. And yet society views mothers as like their body has been ruined. and for me my body was ruined but not because of how it looked but because of being let down postnatally that I had like piles, prolapse,

incontinence, fecal incontinence because I hadn't been stitched up properly and for me that was what was ruined and it felt like there was no postnatal support but also I just wanted my body to work and so for me health isn't about how it looks it's about how it functions and I think we so often get confused

that health means shrinking or seeing exercise as punishing, whereas actually for me health is like having a balanced and healthy attitude to everything. And I feel so much healthier now, but also my mission is to be strong because I want to like be able to lift my kids and run after them and also keep up with them for as long as I possibly can. And I think how can we possibly lift weights and be strong if we're not nourishing ourselves properly? Because a picture of your post-natal body was used as a before picture for an AI generated weight loss.

That's terrible. I was so furious about this. Number one, because I have always, always spoken up against any form of dieting and the diet industry. And as you say, I understand that those injections can be really beneficial to people. And also, I believe in bodily autonomy. So I'm not, I'm not judgmental of individuals who chose to take it because ultimately we're all kind of victims of the same messaging and societal norms. But for my face voice to be used to promote something that I didn't even know what it is or if it's like safe, but it was said something like how to lose, it was me saying how I lost all this way in a month. Like you should never be able to lose that much weight in a month.

But my before picture was me after I'd had a baby. and it's like how dare you use my body, which had just done this phenomenal thing as this kind of like disgusting before picture. And also what made me really angry was that they used me at this morning with Ben and Kat interviewing me. So it was like they were using the credibility of a show like this morning

and a faces like Kat Dealey and Ben Shepard to almost make it seem more real. So they recreated that video? It was Ben and Kat interviewing me on this morning's sofa. So I had been sitting on the sofa wearing that exact outfit, speaking to Ben and Kat, obviously about news and politics and daily events as I do on this morning. But they had completely changed everything. So Ben was interviewing me about how amazing I look now and could I tell him more about this drug. That's awful.

Yeah, terrible. It's so scary because if it wasn't me, I'd have believed it. It was terrible. Didn't your image get used in some sort of AI? Yeah, mine's been used loads of times for similar things, for marriage stuff, for venues. It's frightening really. It's a really scary time.

Yeah, it is. With your postpartum, you've been really honest about your postpartum journey, which I think has been wonderful because, again, something you're fed, well, we've all fed as women, young women, is that motherhood is blessing, which it absolutely is.

I love my kids more than anything, but we're fed, it's easy, it's shrub, it should be a natural process. It should be... It's our natural calling. Yeah, you should be in a floral dress, baking, baby on your hip, everything's fine. When the reality, like you said for myself as well, I had horrendous piles. I had a postpartum haemorrhage with Mia.

I had to have an emergency C-section. I couldn't wash my own hair. I couldn't open the fridge. I was just like, oh. And I mean, I feel amazing now, but those first few weeks I remember thinking, oh my gosh like what has happened because the picture we were painted and motherhood was completely different

so I think for yourself being so open and honest about your prolapse and you know what you've been through has helped so many others I mean how did you cope with with all of that because it's a lot when you you're a mum as well yeah I think like you said you're kind of fed this idea that you'll feel so whole and complete and you won't know love like it until you have kids.

And then even when I look at my attitude about mums before I became a mum, I had so much internalised misogyny, as I think we all do. So even though we tell women, the most important thing they can do is have kids and we almost dismiss women who want to be child-free because we're like, well, you'll regret it,

who's going to look after you when you're older? But then as a society, we also treat mothers with such disrespect, like, you know, whether that's being like, you don't want to be one of those moms who only talks about her kids. And it's like, but why can't you talk about your kids? If people are allowed to talk about people they've just met,

why can't you talk about the things that you've made? But so I think it was like a real mental awakening to kind of be on the other side of motherhood and being like, oh, moms aren't just negative. They're trying to navigate so many struggles, but also in a system that feels like it wasn't really, really built for them in the modern world. And then with my postnatal physical health,

it really took me by surprise because I've always been quite naturally fit. And, you know, I ran two London marathons with very little training in a really good time. Like I know mentally that I can put my body through physical pain and keep going. So I was kind of like, I'll do all the prep. I did the hypnobirthing course.

I felt excited because that's another thing. They're like, you know, the more scared you are, it can impact your birth, which I feel like is another thing. That feels like you're like gaslighting women. But I was like, I remember being excited to find out what it was actually like because you only ever hear mother and baby doing well, obviously if everything goes well.

But I was like, how could she be doing well? She's either just pushed a baby out of her vagina or she has had one come out of her tummy, like, how can she be well? So I was excited. And, you know, I find it's still really triggering now that people talk about negative birth stories as if it's like an attitude problem or a mindset issue or that you just didn't like do your hypnobirthing course properly or something. Because there's so many factors of why a birth might not go to plan. And I think everybody would love to have a positive birthing experience. And I was really lucky that with my second birth, I had an elected C section, elective C section.

and again something that women even 10 years ago wouldn't have been allowed to do unless there was good reason because it was only since the Ockenden report which was after Alfie was born that they started to allow women to choose to have a C-section without needing like a really strong reason and that was such an amazing experience for me

and I would wish that for everybody for them to have a positive birth and I think we need to stop thinking of like bad experiences as negative and start calling them what they are which is traumatic and you kind of go through this whole experience and then you're just expected to look after a baby. You know, it still blows my mind that visiting hours kick the partner out of the room.

And so you could have just had a C-section and so you can't even lift your baby, but you're meant to just be on your own. And I think it sets this really bad precedent that it's on you to look after the baby and not as like a shared partnership. But for me, in my postnatal experience, what really, really annoyed me was that everyone, like in terms of like, everyone just wanted to know if I wanted to bounce back and when I was going to bounce back and if I was going to try and lose the baby weight. And I felt like I was navigating this complicated, unknown issue of, you know,

whether it's piles, prolapse incontinence, fecal incontinence. And it's like no one, I felt like I couldn't get any support. And, you know, NHS weight times are so long. And I feel so privileged that I was able. to get postnatal support, but it feels like, you know, we deserve dignity after birth as well. In so many other countries like France, Holland, they just have such better postnatal care than what we do. And, you know, we deserve to be healthy in our bodies and not just to be left to figure it out by ourselves. And with that kind of toxic bounce back culture, we're sending

lots of women back to exercise before they're even recovered and before they have been checked and know if they have prolapse because I started running again and it was only because my pelvic health physio who helped treat my pelvic girdle pain was like can you just come and see me before you do the before you start running and she identified that I had rectocil which is a type of prolapse I never would have even known that I could have possibly had a prolapse in my 30s and I also had this condition called vaginismis that I only discovered 22 months postpartum so I was already pregnant with Ada and it basically meant that I couldn't even insert a tampon without extreme pain and again it's something that I feel like nobody even knows about

and I went to go see a gynecologist because I thought maybe my stitching because I was stitched up incorrectly so I thought the pain might be due to the stitching but he was like no it's fine it's just in your head and I was like okay but even if it's in my head how can I get it out of my head because it's impacting my ability to enjoy sex, like use hygiene products or sanitary like tampons. So then it was again my pelvic health physio who like within two minutes identified it as vaginismus and she did this kind of like massage to release the tension. And I just thought how many women aren't able to advocate for themselves or aren't able to like afford to just go see a pelvic health physio. And it's just not good enough if people really want women to keep

having babies then they need to treat us with more respect so that we are able to be healthy and to look after ourselves properly. It saved money down the line as well, wouldn't it? Because the amount of women who have prolapses without knowing, even with the abseparation, I had, it was nearly 10 centimetres after my son. And I went again in the privileged position to go and see a private physio, a women's health physio. And she gave me specific rehab to do, to close it.

And she said the amount of women who have... this gap without knowing that's what it is the diocese I can never say a versus recti and they call it oh I've so got a mum pouch how do I get rid of this mum pouch and they're starving themselves to try and remove something which is a muscular separation that's why it's visible nothing to do with what they're eating or how the training it's literally the tear so it has to be shut again with a specific rehab she gave me an internal she checked my posture and after about six months of me doing this rehab

it went back but had I not known that she said to me you could have gone back to doing your deadlift she squats whatever and it would have gone wider and wider to the point where you you would have been in a really bad way if men were giving birth you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't put up with any of the complications that women put up with we'd all have just one kid each if it was up to men but also I feel like you'd literally be treated like a Greek goddess or like Greek god the fact that not only do women and go through all of that and then straight away it's like when you're getting rid of that baby weight as if you're like disgusting or you know this like this even this notion of if you don't get back

to normal then your husband would be justified to leave you that was another thing that when i wasn't ready to have sex i kept worrying that like Tommy wouldn't want me anymore because i think that's like another narrative that we were fed and i talk about it in bimbo that that notion of lie back and think of england that you should almost like offer a service and it's so awful But if men gave birth, I mean, first of all, maternity services wouldn't be declining. But I feel like they would have like a whole week in a five-star hotel with like a nanny. Everyone has a duel. Everyone will be done.

Yeah, it's bad. But even this idea of like, you know, for me, my birth was traumatic. And yeah, I agree that, of course you can like build the blocks again. But I think as a society dismissing something so traumatic, it's like, well, you're lucky. And yet, of course you're lucky. Yeah, but it still happens. But it happened to you and to not have any support and then to be expected to keep a little person alive,

especially if it's your first and you're like, what am I doing? But then on no sleep. And, you know, I feel like so many, like no wonder so many women experience like poor maternal mental health after because we're almost set up to fail, whereas my sister gave birth in Holland with her second baby and everybody there gets, they're called Kramsborg, but it's essentially like a doula that comes,

and comes every single day for two weeks. And imagine how different. I remember saying to my sister, so what does she do? She was like, by anything like takes bins out, goes to get milk, looks after her toddler,

looks after the baby so I can have a nap. She makes lactation biscuits. She gives lactation support. So my sister couldn't breastfeed with her first baby and she really punished herself. Like she tried and tried and tried to the point that it was like, it's not going to happen, Joe. Like you have to give up.

Whereas with her second birth, like it was so easy for. for her because she had someone talking her through it and also letting her know what was like so tonight when you go to bed you'll probably wake up with these sore boobs that's because your milk's coming in if it gets really uncomfortable this is what you could do warm compress or cold compress whatever it is and it's like imagine if we had that as opposed to being like well what did you expect or like everyone else matters we just get oh my god look at her boobs now we're saggy we stretch my axe on because she's had a baby that's what we get now we like

just about the fact my boobs are saggy because I're breastfed as opposed to how amazing I was able to feed my kids. Yeah. It's bizarre. Actually, your book, Bimbo, which we can see here for those who are watching, it's part confessional, part critique of society and systemic systems that undermine women and ask us to shrink. And you are brutally honest about your experiences,

as you just mentioned about childbirth and what you went through there, but also something that happened to you at university. and for the first time you wrote about the fact that you were raped by a friend and carried that with you almost as a badge of shame for years, blaming yourself at points. What propelled you to come out and speak about that so openly? So I think as I was writing the book, it became very clear that I was writing a book about my own journey

to finding my voice and to almost breaking free of all the, labels and expectations. So I always say it's the book that I wish I'd had as a teenage girl navigating all the double standards and slut shaming. It's the book I wish I had when I was single in my late 20s, you know, feeling like I was like swimming against the tide with everyone making out like I was a failure because, you know, my relationship status. And then obviously as a new mum for all the reasons.

And when I was writing it, I was really mindful of it not just feeling like my own trauma dump. I wanted everything I wrote about to have like a purpose to help women and girls and I want it to be a book that my son and my daughter will read one day as well. And my biggest wish is that people don't take as long as I did to kind of unlearn all that shame and kind of keep small trying to either shrink themselves physically or mentally. And for me, one of the biggest periods of shame of my life was the fact that I was raped. And I think because, was when I was writing it, it was also at a similar time to Ducel Pelico's trial. And I thought she really, I mean, she's just an amazing woman and what she went through to then turn up every single day to that trial with her head held high saying,

it's not my shame, shame must change sides. And I was like, it's such a simple concept, but of course the shame isn't hers. Of course it shouldn't have been her face in every single newspaper. but it should have been the perpetrators. It's that they did that to her. She didn't do anything. And then I was like, but I didn't do anything.

And I think victim blaming is such a big part of our society, but it's also so much deeper than that because it's in like our court systems where often if women do come forward, they're put on trial almost more than the perpetrator. And, you know, even things like their sexual history's brought up to try and paint them as like promiscuous. And I was like, how could I write a book about shame and stigma without also talking about one of the most horrific, shameful experiences that I've had?

And I wanted to almost let go of that secret because I was like, well, it's not my fault. And even though I wasn't like the perfect victim, there aren't perfect victims. And by that, I mean, you know, we always say, well, what was she wearing? Was she drinking alcohol? And I think innocently as parents often we put it on our daughters where we're like, that's not an appropriate thing to wear or make sure you don't drink too much. And we're almost putting the onus on them not to get harmed.

But actually somebody who wants to harm women and girls is going to do that regardless. And we've seen with countless high-profile murders that they were doing everything right. And so I just wanted to let it go for myself, but also for anyone else. And I'm honestly, it's like sad how many people have reached out to me, both in, you know, the celebrity world and also people who've read my book that I think so many of us are hiding those secrets and that shame.

And silence only protects the perpetrators. And it allows this sort of rape culture to continue because we are more worried about what it will do to our reputations. And that's just not good enough. And if God forbid it ever happened, you know, to. one of my children or their friends, I would want them to feel like they could come and talk to me and talk to the justice systems and know that the justice system would have their back.

And, I mean, sadly, I feel like we're still not there yet in society, but the only way we can move forward with anything is for enough voices to come together and say enough. Do you think that you might consider going down the justice route for this or is publicly speaking about it enough for you? you to relinquish that shame and move forward? I think it's something that still, even though such a long time has passed

and I've dealt with it, I wouldn't want to have to re-go over that period of my life. And yeah, I feel like I want to, I wanted to help get rid of the stigma and my own shame. But I think it's really also important to remember that, like, this is such a traumatic thing. to happen to people that for them to have to relive that. I don't even know what the laws are about lengths of time.

Obviously it was such a long time ago now. But yeah, it's not something that I would want to revisit, but I certainly want to focus on making sure that for anyone it happens to moving forward, that they never have to live with it. And also to know that they can deal with it in the way that they want. You don't have to be like a perfect victim. If, you know, it's mentally very taxing to have to go through trying to get justice. And sadly, only 1% or 2% of cases ever go to trial anyway.

So we need to do much better to protect women and girls. Because women are not believed. Well, yeah, well, there's that series out at the minute on ITV. Believe me. And it's, I watched the other day on Netflix, the worst ex ever. And it was, I think he's called Wade Wilson, the guy with the skull tattoos. and he went on to, he committed two murders, he assaulted people and it started with,

he raped his girlfriend in the back of her car and he beat her up and she went to the police and it showed the footage of him being interviewed by the male officer and the male officer was saying she's told me this, I've got to put her first because I'm working for her but I won't send an innocent man to jail. He seemed decent, you tell me, And he's like, I didn't do anything.

She's like, he's like, don't worry about it. I'm not going to send an innocent man to jail. He lets him off. And then down the line, he goes on to murder two women. And this first girlfriend, the ex-girlfriend, he's saying, had that police officer believed me and taken DNA from him and done it properly, he would have been in prison for that. Instead, he let him go free and he killed two women.

Well, look at Wayne Cousins, you know, he was like flashing. And again, if I think he was, if we, violence against women and girls, it's like we only really look at the extreme cases, but actually it's a spectrum and it starts with casual sexism because, you know, that normalises a looking down on women and a feeling entitled to women or of thinking that you're better than women. And in so many cases, like with Wayne Cousins, the conversations that he was having in WhatsApp chats, that should have been enough for it to raise alarm bells. And yet we keep dismissing sexist language as banter and it's not banter.

It's shocking the type of men who engage in this banter as well because it's the ones that you wouldn't expect. I know my husband has had to leave WhatsApp groups with groups of male acquaintances because of the sexist misogynist nonsense although nonsense doesn't seem an adequate word enough to describe it that they're coming out with because a friend of theirs went through a divorce and then they took it upon themselves to use this group to have absolutely punch down, to use your phrase, on women

and spout terrible, misogynistic, um, observations. Yeah, these are all middle class men in really good jobs. So when does it become acceptable, acceptable to talk that way, all of them married, some of them have got daughters. Well, this is it. I guess that's the perfect example that sexism is not a class issue. It's like, you know, from aristocracy to working class,

it doesn't matter who you are. it's like a societal shift needs to happen and fair play to your husband for removing himself from those groups or for speaking up because I think the problem is like we need boys and men to have the confidence to be like you can't speak like that in the same way that I think you know we're there with like we wouldn't allow people to joke about terrorism but yet more men kill women than there have been terrorist attacks but for some reason our attitude towards the two are so different and I you know we saw it with Donald Trump with the men's hockey team, the way that he like totally dismissed the gold medal winning women's team. And imagine if just one of the boys on that team was like, well, they're gold medalist or you can't even just like you can't say that. And that's what we need. We need that kind of locker room banter to change for men to know they can't just get away with it. And actually it might mean that you stop people like in the story that you told of going more extreme because if people know they can get away with something, they become almost like more. and more radicalised or emboldened by that. It's frightening and it's daunting knowing, you know,

we're all raising a daughter and a son. So it's about teaching them both what's right and what's wrong in terms of what they can and can't do and say and what to accept and what not to accept. And like you say, knowing either of them can come and speak to you when they need to. And this is it because I think we talk a lot about raising girls and like the worries about raising girls,

but I'm so worried about raising my son in this world as well. Like, you know, we've all watched adolescence. And I feel like you can do so much as a parent, but especially now in the days of like smartphones, like we can never always know what they're consuming and absorbing and picking up at school. And obviously we can do our best to create an environment where they want to talk to us about it.

But we can't, we can't guarantee. And it's so scary to think that our sons could be radicalised. by, you know, even knowing that, like, in cells kind of infiltrate game, like, you know, video games. Yeah, it's a friendship groups as well in school. They're all. And, like, talk of the Manifere. Like, there was this study that within something like 18 seconds of being on TikTok. I don't know the exact stats, but it's like seconds of being on TikTok. They will receive sexist and misogynistic content or Manusphere content. And that is so scary because obviously it will ultimately impact women and girls. but it also harms them. And, you know, men, we know men's mental health

is something that we have to take really seriously and toxic masculinity, and the manosphere isn't going to help create, I don't want to say soft menly boys, but emotional boys and men who feel comfortable to talk about their emotions with each other and also with us, but it will also harm us. Yeah, my son's 14 and just last night, he said to me, can you persuade Daddy to a land we'd go on TikTok?

And I said, no. Absolutely not. No. He is on Snapchat, but we have access to his Snapchat on our phone so we can see what is being said. But it's a mind-bent. I feel really sorry for you having a, like, a child that age now, because I feel like we're almost in this kind of guinea pig Wild West period where, like, social media is so new in terms of, you know, 10 years ago when Instagram was around,

it wasn't that sort of like extreme content. And I really, I really. hope that they figure it out and figure it out quickly, but it must be so scary to be raising my boy off on now. Twitter or whatever's called. I just had to delete my account because every time

I went on it was stuff that I just didn't want to see or really extreme. Awful. Yeah. Well they're talking about laws aren't they for under 16th. They banned it in Australia and then bills were passed recently that they might follow suit here if it doesn't get

challenged in the Lords but teenagers are clever and they'll find a way around it. I can't see how that can be actioned. My son's school is banning smartphones from September. They're not allowed to take them on to the facility at all. At the moment, they can put them in their lockers, but they're banning them completely. So I think that's a start.

But also I feel like rather than banning things, they should be educating people on how to use technology smartly because I feel like we're already there. Do you know what I mean? Like we're already living in this digital world and kids already know they already want social media. So you can't, as we all know, from being teenagers, you can try and stop someone from doing it,

but they'll find a way. And I feel like we should be teaching them how to navigate it and having conversations about the Manosphere, about the Tried Wife movement, you know, trying to make sure that those conversations stay open. And if they are consuming people like Andrew Tate, where at least having like open conversations about it, you know, could be like, well, what do you think about what he's saying?

and trying not to just shut it down and be judgmental. So at least, but yeah, I just feel like we're already there now and you can ban it, but either they'll find it away. They'll find it even more extreme. Well, no, a more desirable enticing. If something's banned, you want it more. You always want it because you can't have. Like when pogs are banned when I was at school, still wanted those pogs.

Do you remember pogs? Oh, pogs, yeah, and you're queenie. Yeah. What's a pod? So like a little circular plastic thing. Oh, no, I'm a bit. bit older than you guys. They were great.

They always got banned. Anything good, always got banned. Well, it's been lovely speaking to you. Before we go, a question to wrap up everything, how would you describe wellness and health and physical and mental health as a wellness? To not only yourself now, but to your daughter. If she's come up to you and said, Mommy, what would you say health is? What would you, what advice would you give her?

My daughter's three, so I'd obviously speak to her in a very age-appropriate way, but I would say health is when you've got a happy tummy, because I don't think food is good or bad. You know, I think she's not choosing always what she's eating. So I'm like, health is when you've got a happy tummy, and you get to see your friends, and you get to run, and you get to play, and when you don't feel happy, then you come talk to mum and daddy, because that's for me is like wellness.

And I never want to teach them that certain foods are good and bad, I just want to like give them lots of variation. And then to people in general, I don't know. Do you know what? I really struggle with the term wellness because I think of what the industry is and has become. And not to say that that aren't amazing people. And obviously wellness in itself is like, of course we all want wellness.

But I think often it can be a bit toxic and especially as a mom, if I hear one more person preaching about just getting up an hour earlier when my kids Alfie wakes up most days at five and by the time I get all the jobs done at the end of the day it's like midnight and I'm like you want me to get up at four that doesn't seem very well

because rest and recovery I've seen you've got a whoop I've got a whip and I love it but I wish there was a setting that said I cannot control my lia like I cannot sleep any longer because I've got child so I do feel like

moms seem left out of a lot of the wellness conversations sleep where the baby sleep used to make me laugh yeah so what when I'm in the middle of Isle 7 in Morrison? Do you want me to just sleep?

Because she's asleep. I'd respect that. I feel like maybe we should have some pods just dotted around. Just have a sleep when she does. Yeah, I think. But what I would also say to anyone is like, for me, health and wellness is about not shrinking yourself in any way, shape or form. I think you can have a really, a desire to be stronger and have a more balanced life.

I know that I, like, when I'm back to go to Disney, I know that I'll not feel healthy because of the type of food that is on offer to me. And if I eat junk food every day, that's obviously I'll enjoy it. And I'm not ever like, you know, I never see, I never have cheap day. I don't think food is good or bad. But I also love and crave balance. So, and I think we all know, like, it's unrealistic for me to say, I'll never drink alcohol again because I love having a drink with my friends.

But it's knowing that, well, I'm not going to do it every single day. I mean, for so many reasons other than just my physical health. And I think for me, getting out of that sort of diet culture was being a bit more intuitive and like, you know, it doesn't matter if you eat pack a crisp, like, go for it. You deserve it. But just don't constantly be thinking about restricting yourselves all the time and just know that sometimes you need to sleep. Sometimes you need to move your body. Like don't need to do all of those things all the time. Like some weeks I just need sleep so I don't do any exercise. But I'll like walk to nursery. So it's like I'm still getting movement in. and just enjoying life because we're not going to look back and care about what size our clothes were or how much we weighed. That's true.

Well, on that note, we're going to finish with some quickfire questions. Do you want to go first? Yes. I always get nervous doing these. If we're coming to your house for dinner tonight, obviously we can't because you're busy packing. But what are you going to make us?

Maryberry's lasagna, but I'm afraid to say, because I have to hide all the vegetables. There's no vegetables in hers. I put vegetables in. They will be grated. So you won't see it, but what will be in her recipe as a nice little addition will be grated, mushrooms, carrots and also lentils because you can't see them. Tricks the kids.

Can't go on with Mary Berry. That lasagna recipe with my additions is the best lasagna recipe. Try it. What's the one thing that you would take to a desert island for a year? Can't be your kids, though. I mean, it wouldn't be my kids. I don't break. I wasn't thinking that.

No. An iPod. I mean, an old school iPod. Just music. Music on a desert island. An iPod, I was thinking then. That's what I was 10, 15 years ago on iPod. Yeah, just all your music.

Probably SPF as well, to be honest, because me on a desert island did that and the SPF would be problematic. For the rest of your life, you can either drink coffee or wine, but not both. Which one would you pick? That's a very tricky one, but I'd probably keep coffee. Yeah. Same. Same as us.

What's the last thing that made you barely laugh? Probably my son, after my women's hull shoot, obviously you get like, you feel so glamorous. And I was putting him to bed last night, and he asked me to turn the other way because of my jungle mouth. And that's what he said. And I was like, wow, so humbling. So I don't you know I'm a cover girl?

And finally, what's the one thing that someone can do to make themselves feel a bit better today. Where do you start? I think just like a good book, you know? I know it's not like wellness or anything. Like a good mental health walk, good music, music can lift you out of any mood and getting lost in a good book. Sounds good to me.

Well, Ashley, thank you for coming on just as well. If anyone's listening, please go and buy Ashley's cover of Woman's Health. on the knee stands now if you're a keynote and you're listening to this just as it comes out. And yeah, thank you. You'll know if I've been in that store

because it'll be on every, in front of every single magazine on the shelf.