Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - Emma Barnett on the agony of endometriosis: 'It’s like a drilling sensation in my whole body’

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Broadcaster and author Emma Barnett joins Just As Well with her trainer Frankie Holah to speak candidly about living with endometriosis and adenomyosis, enduring 30 years of chronic pain, and the impact of IVF. Emma shares the reality of working in high-pressure live broadcasting while coping with debilitating symptoms, and explains how she reframed her body from enemy to ally. Frankie offers practical advice on movement, training, and supporting women through endometriosis and postpartum recovery. This is a powerful conversation about resilience, women’s health, and why female pain should never be ignored. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Amex Platinum, you have access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. So your experience before takeoff is a taste of what's to come. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights,

and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence, while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross-training Treadplus at OnePeloton.ca. Hello, I'm Gemma Atkinson. And I'm Claire Sanderson, the editor-in-chief of Women's Health.

We've just recorded another brilliant episode of Just As Well. We spoke to incredibly famous, amazing journalist Emma Barnett. and her personal trainer, trainer Frankie Holer. Yes. I didn't realize until meeting Emma today, I've met her a few times, that she suffers with endometriosis. Something that she's spoken about quite a lot in the past.

And when you read and listen to how she describes the debilitating pain that comes with endometriosis, yet she hosts the Today program on Radio 4, interviewing politicians, prime ministers, the pressure of live broadcasting. You have a taste of that doing your drive time show with hits radio. Imagine hosting that in what she describes as bone grinding pain. She's described it as a drill going from the centre of our body down to her legs

that is so severe she physically can't lift up her legs. And she was very honest and open about having six failed IVF attempts. In fact, she told us, The last injection she had to do for IVF, she did it at Downing Street, minutes before going to interview the Prime Minister. It's really quite incredible. When I was doing the research for our interview, I actually messaged my husband and said, this woman is remarkable. Women are remarkable. We are remarkable. We manage to juggle and put our best foot forward in the face of often much adversity. but what she manages to achieve despite 30 years, and she describes it as 30 years of living with this pain,

it's mind-blowing. I didn't even, like I said, I'd met her previously, I had no idea she had it because she just masked it so well. Yeah. And she brought her trainer Frankie with her. Frankie specialises in pre-imposed partum training, but also helps women train with endometriosis. And she gave really great advice and tips and things you can.

can do if you are suffering. It won't be the same for everybody, obviously. And Emma was very, very honest about that. But things that have helped her feel better in terms of movement. So it's going to be a really good listen, I think, for anyone diagnosed. Because again, she said one in seven. One in seven women have this. And I didn't realize, again, me and my naivety, I assumed endometriosis was just on the reproductive organs. Emma's was actually on her. bowel. So she told us about that as well. I didn't realize it can go on different organs. Yeah, she said one of the most commonly believed treatments for endometriosis is a hysterectomy, but that wouldn't work for her. It's not on her reproductive organs. It's on her bowel and

elsewhere in her body. It's, yeah, and I didn't even know that. And I thought I knew a lot of endometriosis. I assumed that it was on the reproductive organs and it could spread. I didn't realize that it didn't necessarily need to be there. And she spoke about how when she was pregnant, Again, I assumed it in fluctuating pregnancy because she's not having a cycle because obviously you're not having any periods that was the best time for her. Pain-wise, there wasn't any pain.

And when she's breastfeeding. And so you can imagine, she described it as the gremlin coming back when she was easing out of breastfeeding as you have to do if you're a career woman it's very hard to continue breastfeeding when you're in the office. And for her, you know,

hosting live national radio programs. You can't pop off and breastfeed in the middle of that, can you? So she obviously had to end her breastfeeding journey. And as she was doing it, she could feel what she described as the gremlin returning and the pain. Can you imagine that time when you're going back to work after maternity leave is an emotional time anyway.

Yeah. And imagine knowing that not only are you going through that transition, you're doing it with a reintroduction of debilitating pain into your life. Yeah. She was remarkable. Well, she is remarkable. So for anyone who has a similar condition or who knows, someone who does. This episode is for you. We hope you enjoy it. Welcome to another episode of

Just as Well. Today we are joined by two ladies. Emma Barnett is an award-winning broadcaster, journalist and author. She's the host of Radio 4's flagship the Today program, the UK's most popular breakfast news program. She was previously the chief host of Women's Hour. She's hosted Newsnight and her award-winning mid-morning program on BBC 5 Live. She's also a selling author and most importantly, she's a mother. She has two children. Her second child, the daughter, was born after six rounds of IBF and one miscarriage. And she's since become very passionate and an advocate for women's health. And you're joined today by your personal trainer, who you've credited as helping you both mentally and physically. This is Frankie Hola,

who's looked in incredible shape. Yes. A highly experienced personal trainer with 11 years of experience. and Frankie specialises in women's health pre and postnatal training, which we're all for because we're all mums. You're also a mum to a six-year-old daughter, and Frankie's really passionate about the next generation and their relationship to movement, which, again, we're all for here at women's health. She qualified in pre-impulsed natal in 2015 to better enable her to support her female client base. So it's safe to say we're in good company. Now, I wanted to start, Emma. I was telling Claire earlier that we've met before we did a TV show together, didn't we? Not Hollywood.

Not Hollywood. Not Hollywood. No. It was one where we could eat and drink. Yeah, it was amazing. Sunday morning. I had no idea of your diagnosis, which I think is testament to, first of all, how well you cope, how well you mask. Can you just explain to everyone listening what it is you are living with and your journey to diagnosis?

No, I'm very happy to. I've enjoyed being on a Sunday morning program where we got to eat and drink together enormously. Anything where you sit down, I'm very good at it. Yes. Which is why Frankie's had a world. cut out for her. I have two conditions. One's called endometriosis, which is where tissue that's similar to the womb lining that's meant to leave your body doesn't. So builds up, causes all sorts of issues. Largely the hallmark of it for a lot of people as well as many other things is pain,

a great deal of pain. And it's a very much a hormonally driven condition, which I didn't understand four years, but I wasn't diagnosed for 21 years. So I started bleeding at the age of 10 and my diagnosis came at 31. And then a few years after the diagnosis, which came about because we couldn't get pregnant naturally, I was diagnosed with something called adenomiosis, which even less is known about and is even harder to say. So I make lots of dark jokes, which is part of coping,

because it's a very unknown territory, despite, especially with endo, we think one in seven women have it the world over. It could be one in 10, might be one in seven. I can't now remember, because probably we don't know. But it's at least the same number as type 2 diabetes. Wow. Because on women's health, and we're not a big team at all, but there's two of my staff hiring endometriosis, and one of them had an operation before Christmas. And then the lovely lady used denial makeup today. She's got endometriosis. Oh gosh, okay. is maybe having an operation to remove

European tubes or ovaries sooner or harder because she's had her children. So just in that small circle, there's three women have told me that they also suffer with it. That's a lot. Yeah, it gives you an insight into, and that's if you know, you know, it's the point that diagnosis takes the best part of a decade.

And with diagnosis, again, I love the makeup party. She said she didn't get diagnosed. She had a C-section with her second child, and that's when they discovered she had it. So it took that to realize. That's a lot of information. You just had a child. Yeah.

And by the way, you have this. One of the symptoms you know you've described is the horrendous pain. Is that something you deal with day to day? And how does that impact you? Obviously with your training with Frankie, obviously you have to be aware of your client's needs. Well, yeah, you could definitely talk to that. But if I perhaps just say, when I went to Frankie after having our daughter, and I'm quite a determined person and I said I really need to change the game with my body.

You know, I've been through all this IVF. I haven't taken my body seriously as an ally for a long time. It's been an enemy. And that's certainly how I was thinking about it. And I'd read some of Frankie's columns in the local newspaper. I love a local paper. Brixton Bugle. And I knew that she obviously had this specialism,

But I also kind of knew from a friend who'd worked with her for years that she had maybe the vibe to cope with training a woman like me. And, you know, I said to Frankie, I will always turn up. I don't know how I'll be on the mat, but I will arrive for the appointment. And that's a massive part of trying to cope with what can be thrown at you on a day-to-day basis. So just to answer your question, and then I'll let you bit on the pain, one of the things when you're asked about what it feels like, which is sort of what you've asked, I think, is pain's really hard to describe. They've done studies on language to do with pain,

which is one of the reasons women and men, but in this particular context, women find it hard to articulate and be listened to by professionals. Because how do you describe and how do you delineate as a woman between what is normal pain and what is, as I would now describe it, like a drilling sensation from my pelvis that goes all the way down my legs,

makes my legs feel like I can't lift them to go up the stairs, although I physically can, like there's nothing, my nerves aren't damaged, but it feels like they are. And then you get it all down your arms. Sometimes I feel like it's in my chest. And, you know, it's just, it's a whole body experience endometriosis,

coupled with adeniosis. And I also get nausea. I don't want to eat. and now I get post our daughter, my body, as many women's do, changes after having a baby. I get ovulation, I get like a double whammy. So I used to just get just sort of seven to ten days before a period, a lot of those symptoms. I've not described all of them, but you get the gist. But now I get ovulation as well.

So they're halfway through the month in the run up to it as well. So I do turn up. You do? But it's hard for you sometimes as well as me. I think with some sessions, it's about dealing with the person who walks through the door. You can have every plan in the book. It would be like, this is what we're working on today. And Emma might walk in as a four out of ten in energy and just be like, it's not a good day.

That's sometimes a line, it's not a good day. And so you have to deal with the client and the person who walks in on you that day. Yeah. And a lot of the time, that's a bit of intuitive coaching so that Emma can, cope with what we're doing. It might be stuff that you're really familiar with that we've done a lot. You like a good line on the floor.

Love a lying on the floor. Love a lying on the floor. But a lot of it is keeping it a bit simpler. It might be taking load away a little bit. It might be less reps. It might be just starting really low to the ground. It's kind of serving the Emma who walks through the door

and not trying to just push through what might be in the plan. And I think... Although when I am having a good day... When you're on a good day... You are me. I mean. No, you're still really lovely to be with.

But gauging whether you can push it or not. You exploit in a good way that day. Make the most of the energy. Yeah, if she walks in and she's pinging, which also does happen. And that's great, like that high energy. It's being able to say, right, we've got this today. So let's make the most of that. Yeah.

And some days knowing whether the pain that you're experiencing is something that you can work with or whether we do need to tone it back a little. And I don't think if I didn't have someone who was intuitive and also a woman. who's had some of the changes that comes with having a child especially, like especially in the early days, you know, because I'm also like every other woman post a baby, like thinking about diastasis recti, thinking about like how I'm healing,

how I'm growing back together again to C-sections. You know, I don't think I could have described, like it's hard to describe, isn't it, how you feel? No, I understand that. I've said it in another episode. When I was in labour, I've got two children, both emergency C-sections. Oh gosh.

With the midwife, before I knew it was going to be a C-section, when she was telling me you'll be okay, what you're experiencing now. I said to her, do you have children? I said, because if you haven't, you don't know what I'm experiencing. And she had, she was like, I have, I know that pain. The pain, yeah. But with your condition, is it a case of, I mean, you described them as a flare-up? Is there anything you know specifically either food or exercise?

If someone has a period pains, they'll say, pop a hot water bottle on the tummy, have a few paracetamol. Is there anything new found? specifically that helps with your symptoms, with movement, or is it just, it can be different every single month? It's the matchat or the three ensemble Ciceroa of the FACETs that I just niche, who energize all over?

Mm, it's all the ensemble. The format standard and mini, regrouped, what old are, well. And, the embellage, too beau, who is practically pre to donate. And I know that I'd love these summer Fridays and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. I'm, I'm just the most ensemble

the Codes of CETO of Cephora. Summer Friday's Rare Beauty, Way, SIFARA collection and other part of Vite. Procurre you see form of standard and mini, regrouped for a better quality price. On link on CIFRAP.C or in magazine. So flare-ups are actually like, I would say flare-ups are slightly different where,

because it's quite constant, I've got like a level of what I'm dealing with. I'm actually having quite a good day today, so thanks everyone, good vibes. But I, a flare-ups really bad. Like a flare-up, you're not, the only thing that helps, like a really serious one is like sitting in a bath of scalding hot water. And it doesn't matter if you're in the middle of a heat wave, which a lot of women with this sort of issue or these sorts of pains,

we talk about how hard it is in the heat because what you need is heat. Heat calms you, you know, allegedly reducing inflammation. I'm not sure it can. I feel like I'm completely inflamed when it's happening. But that's very helpful. So heat generally is good, flare-up or regular. but movement-wise, I actually really like, Frankie's taught me loads about lifting. I hadn't done any lifting, really.

And I do quite like even one of a bad day, don't we? Yeah, we'll scale it to make sure that you can deal with the capacity that you have. And working with, as you all know from training, like your good compound movements, as well as I love a juice bit of mobility as well, kind of combined. I think some of those movements really help you and starting low from the ground. And if you come in on a pain day, I just think starting low to the ground with them are is just perfect because it makes your nervous system feel. Yeah.

A bit of calming. Mentally makes you feel better as well. Yeah. So just starting with mobility and just to get into the body a little bit more and then go into some lifting from there for you has kind of worked as a, just our little structure procession. Yeah. And listen, I'm not shy about talking about this.

I think it's really important, especially with the platform I'm afforded to be graphic. Okay. My endos on my bowel. Some women it's on their fallopian tubes. Some women, it... But that's the last check, if you like, when I was opened up for an operation. That's where it was seen, shall I say. Last spotted.

And that means I can have a really loose tummy. So, you know, lots of women, when they have a period, have a loose tummy because of the... There's technical terms around that. Can't I remember any of them. So that's normal for a lot of women anyway. But I have it quite a lot in the run-up. So you were saying, like, what do I feel like?

The reality is I don't feel like doing anything. You know, it's not always that way, but if I have that symptom and pain, you just want to lie on the sofa and watch stacks in the city, even if the latest series isn't very good. But you go to, and I know I'm in a very privileged position to spend the money on a trainer and invest in specialism and invest in the best. But having an appointment has been mentally also really helpful on those days.

helpful on those days because obviously I have my work and I have my role as a mother and a wife and a friend and but you can if you're not well that day those roles can reduce because I have a partner and you know we're a team but if you are have an appointment to move I do feel held to account yeah so accountability to the mental thing as well yeah yeah and like and we talk and we have a relationship and I think that relationship's really special and you can have that if you're going to a class regularly of course as well yeah not just one-to-one but one-to-one's been really special do you think they're showing up like you said the first phone call we had it was I will be there I'm not going to cancel only because of my endo that

was literally one of the first things yeah I have a few times we've had a cup of time but that was severe yeah yeah so the advice is rest but how do you you host the today program yeah there is that which you know you're interviewing prime ministers politicians dealing with the news of the day, you need to be on it and alert. How do you cope if you are in pain? Because pain mentally drains you, not just physically drains you. It takes up your mental capacity. Yes, it does. And I cannot, for the life of me, imagine how that you can host a flagship program to millions and millions of listeners if you are going through what you go through. It's a great question. It's the question, really. So as someone normally interviews, you know, it's a bull's eye in many ways, as is how does it feel? You know, and these are the things that people are very interested in, especially women who have endo and I am part of that community. I really want to talk not for them, but with them about this. I really love the fact that my brain will still work even when my body is against me.

And I can struggle really through that as well like you're describing. But I find it's a displacement theory. So, you know, it's a bit like with a child if they've hurt themselves and then you distract them, it's really good. You know, it's helpful. It soothes them. I'm not saying reading about the water policy of Britain soothes me in the same way as giving a child their comforter and a cuddle does. but I find focusing on something really, really hard when I'm in pain, a bit like lifting a difficult weight,

I find it a challenge, and I want to rise to the challenge, and I want to do what I have committed to doing, which is being a good journalist and solid in my commitment and my work. So I have to sometimes walk through fire to do my job, but that is how I've always had to do it, I was working with on the age of 21. Because your alarm must go off at someone godly hour. 321.

Oh, goodness me. So that's hard enough anyway, getting up. You know what? I actually find going to sleep harder. I don't find getting up hard. I don't know why. Sometimes if you're at that moment where you're really deep, you know, when you, like if your child wakes you up

and you're in that deep pit of sleep, like there's different times when you can be, you're still crawling sometimes. Yes, yeah. I'm like, with my job, I'm like, if any, Anyone comes anywhere near the bed. Away. You're all in trouble.

But, yes, sometimes waking up is hard. Of course it is. But I actually find the pressure to go to sleep early harder. Especially in the summer months. When it's light, it's like you want to be. I've got blackouts. And you've obviously mentioned children then coming in the room and stuff. You've been very open, which I think is brilliant in your fertility struggles.

Yes. You've successfully had two happy, healthy children now. Very lucky. Was that part of your condition that was stopping, the fertility. Yeah, right. I think so. We don't ever, we haven't got like a definitive answer.

But the thing I said before, and we've talked a lot about this, is endometriosis is also a disease of hormones. So a lot of the time we think physically about fertility. So for years I would be thinking, what's blocking me physically inside from getting pregnant? You know, I don't know about how your mind works, but me as a sort of bit of a problem solver,

I'd be like, what, what is it? But actually, it might have been that I didn't have enough estrogen. I didn't make enough, you know what I mean? Like it could have been, I needed more hormones. And then what is IVF? It's a shit ton of hormones.

So, and actually the very first time I did it, I didn't know how lucky this was, it worked. So after two and a half years of banging my head against the Brit Wall, getting diagnosed with endo, having a laparoscopy, finding out it's all over my bowel and my organs. It wasn't actually, in my ovaries. It wasn't in my...

You know, some women who were trying for a child with endometriosis, it is physically they can see in the way, so then they can try and take things, move things. But it was in my case, I needed some hormones, it seemed. I can look back and see that now. But for a long time, I had no idea. I used to just say to me, Gemma, we don't know. It's got unexplained infertility.

Which is so frustrating when the one thing you're trying for is a baby, and it's like... It's a lack of, like you say, the awareness around it. I mean, I had no idea. Even when we filmed the other episodes, what we make a artist, it's incredible how women just, and men, just get on with it because you've got other things to do.

But when it comes to something such as IVF, which really you have no control over, you do what you're told, you take what you take, and then it's just, okay, the waiting game. And you had, was it six rounds? So then the next, a sequel was bad. Yes, the next round, the next attempt, to have a second child was horrific.

Yeah, it was in the end six rounds. So seven in total, but six to have our daughter, and we hit the pandemic as we began that process, and I stayed in the NHS hospital in London. A lot of people don't know you can have IVF. If you've used your NHS round up, if you're lucky enough to have an NHS round, because some people don't.

If you've used it up, you can still stay in the hospital, but you can pay. And it is, it's not cheap. but it's a lot cheaper than Harley Street and a lot of other places. And what I love about doing IVF and the NHS, and this is just a great public health platform that you've got here, so this is why I'm saying this, is they don't do add-ons, really.

You know all these extra bits that you get told might help. They don't do any of that. The NHS's version of IVF is like a massive medical Chinese takeout. It's really basic, does the job, and it does the job as far as it can do, and then it's a waiting gate. So I stayed with the same doctor, Tarrick, and I was with him in the pandemic. My husband was never allowed to come.

So I did it on my own with a man called Tarrick. And he was amazing. And he wore a mask. I didn't see his face till the penultimate round. So it was very intense. And does IVF exasperate or ease the endometriosis? It's not good. I mean, I have to laugh because it's so bad.

I'm sorry, that's just like a nervous thing. maybe, but it's not good generally to put your body through highs of estrogen, loads of progesterone, and then it doesn't work, and then you come out the other end of that spin cycle, and you've got to have a period. And that first period post-IVF each time for me was, I mean, I was actually trying to train still a bit, not, we haven't met yet. Lovely trainer called Jeremy, who looks after my husband, who's also called Jeremy. And poor jazz. No, poor trainer jazz, because I was just on the mat, like, you know, IVF training, bloated, not caring about my body.

My body had become, you know, which is really interesting to read a magazine like Women's Health for me, is that my body had just become a pincusher. It had become a tool to try and achieve what other women could do without what I seemingly had to do. and obviously other women do have to do facility treatment. And the endo was very aggravated by it, very. It was angry. And what made you keep going then for six rounds? I had a best friend who I grew to be a best friend with through the IVF. I believe in life generally you need fairies.

You need endo fairies, IVF fairies, people who are your team, whatever you want to call them, your squad to get, who have the exact same problem as you. So your actual mates who you love, you can't all have the same problems, but you find people to be with you on particular roads. And it's a crazy tale. I think we should make it into Hollywood film, me and her one day. But Dr. Katie, as I call her, because she's a doctor,

lived down my street, already had a boy like me. And for my six rounds, she did eight. Goodness. And we were doing them at the same time. And when COVID restrictions lifted and it kept failing, we'd march out in our coats and go for angry walks with little tinnies of gin or beer, you know, between us. And the last round before the successful round for our daughter,

which I get quite emotional about, I had a miscarriage. And I didn't think that could happen. I was like, how could I have finally got pregnant only to lose the baby nine weeks in? And I said, I'm done. You know, to your point, why would anyone keep doing this to themselves?

Like, I was just like, see ya. This is like being in a casino where you never, ever beat the dealer. You know, it's just... And Katie said to me, in a true medical, doctory way, she had a miscarriage the same round. This was what was the weirdness, like it gives me tingles. She said, this is great. You got pregnant. That was her view on my miscarriage.

You know, not great that you had lost, but it worked. You got to seize the evidence, Emma. Go back to being a journalist. I was like, I don't want to be a journalist. journalist. I just want to be a woman in this scenario and she was like, well I'm a doctor and you're a journalist and we've got to encourage each other. I said, I'm not doing it. Anyway, I went for a walk and I came back and my husband was like, oh my God, you're getting back in the ring. I was like, I'm doing one more time, one more time and that's our daughter and she had a boy three days

after me. We both went one more time. She did. She's your twin flame. She's a nice phrase. She is. She is a nice phrase. She is. We all have them. I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, I believe that, anyway. I've had twin flame, I thought. She's a twin flame. It's just basically someone who's twinning, as they say. Someone who's going through the same things, the same emotion. It could be someone in a completely different country. Could be someone down the street. We all have a twin flame. And they kind of pick you up when you need it

without sometimes you're even knowing. That's so idling, yeah. See, Jo sometimes you have a feeling of, oh, I feel. It's your twin flame saying, come on. Get your ass back in the ring. You've got one more in you. So I believe in guardian angels, which I've been similar to your fairies. So we've done fairies, twin flames. Yeah, pretty similar to North Stars. North Stars. Okay.

We've all got our... My husband would be really cross and I've admitted to having a guardian angel. So you actually believe there's a... I genuinely believe I've got a guardian angel. I know what that person is. Yeah. Oh my God, you know who they are? Yeah, I think it's my grandmother.

And I have evidence, but I'm not going to go into that evidence because they make me sound even more ridiculous. That's for another one. We do need to do an F on this. Obviously, the journalist to me now wants to ask about 19 questions, but I'm going to resist. We'll do it off camera. There you go, Twin Flames, Fairy, Sparys Rhees, Guardian Angels.

This is the woo-woo part of the podcast. I'm so not woo-woo. Neither are I. The least woo-woo, but I believe these women have come into my life. Yeah. So help. And me to help them, I hope, you know. So did you have pregnancies together then?

Yeah. And how did, because obviously, we've all had babies. My first pregnancy, I, I was like, oh, I'm fine. It was like, this is a breeze, apart from a physical bump. My little girl, my first one, my son, wow. That was a difficult pregnancy for me in terms of eight pains, but I'm assuming for you, well, I know for you,

did it accelerate your symptoms during pregnancy? I was carrying. Carrying was amazing because you don't have your endo. So it gets rid of it during? Because you're not cycling. And when you breastfeed, you don't have a period, so there's no pain. So it literally is only when you have a cycle.

When your cycle turns back on. So when I stopped breastfeeding, week to the day with our daughter, for instance, because that's the more recent one. I've breastfed for about six or seven months. I was like, no, I could feel it's like a gremlin just starting up again. So yeah, no pregnancies. Like I had some of the nauseous, like some of the unpleasant, regular.

And is there no treatment? With endometriosis, it's just something you have to live with. Is that what you've been told? There's no groundbreaking research that can stop it or prevent it? No. I mean, there'll be doctors shouting at this listening, saying various elements. But I'm confident having seen many, many doctors in the last few years that combine, the best you can come up with is a vague fix for you in the sense of maybe it's a mixture of hormones.

I would say try and do bioidentical, not synthetic if you can, as you get older some people say the coil helps a bit but as you get towards perimenopause that can become complicated because you might not tolerate it as well you need other hormones

and so a mixture of that some people always wear by hysterexomy but that is not a cure you have it on your bowel how does a hysterectomy help so I always try to stress that movement you know I do think like

and diet we can get into that as well you know there are I've had to develop a multifaceted mindset and approach to how I can live best with it. But no, Gemma, for a disease that destroys women from the inside out, there is no groundbreaking research. And it's hard, isn't it? It's horrific.

I think it's... I think it's... I think it's... I think it's... I think it's... Bordering on criminal. Yeah. But I even think post...

I mean, obviously, Frankie, you know, I think pre-imposed natal with... I, for my NHS checkup with my kids, the doctor was lovely. but it was a case of, are you feeling you good? Yeah, all good. Fine. They didn't check my seat, my scar or anything.

So I went and had a mummy MOT and I didn't realize they gave me, they checked me internally, they checked my scar, they checked my posture post-pregnancy. Right, aren't they? The balance,

and I had no, I think the women's health after a baby, I don't think there's enough for it available for women. No, you know, not at all. No, I totally agree. When I have my six-week check

after my daughter. I even asked a question, do you need to like look at me more? Yeah. And it's someone who's in that field anyway and they're like, was something that you're concerned about? I was like, well, no, but I kind of am aware of what my body's doing to some level. But I said to my doctor, if I didn't know, then I wouldn't know to ask. Like I just, it doesn't go far enough to help women feel supported enough at that time unless obviously you can afford to go and pay for women's health physio, which can be expensive. Yeah. I see maybe 50 mums a week coming into my classes, some who have been to see physios.

And when they say that, I'm like, oh, that's great. I love to hear that. You know, I'm seeing a physio. They've told me this. And it means I can work as a coach to moms, postpartum. You're kind of in a real sort of nuanced space because I can't, I can't. I can't internally check anybody. I'm kind of working to the best of my ability.

And some moms don't understand what's happening to themselves. They're not been for a women's health physiotech. They might not have any clue. Some people have no idea that they have a prolapse, for example, and they're working with their body the best they can, but might be in pain or experience a heaviness, and I don't know what it is. And then they also can be scared to move, can't they?

Of course, yeah. There's so much fear still. And it's not to say there's not more in the, In the 11 years I've been doing it, there is more good information for mums, but it's still got a long way to go. A lady message me. She sent me a picture on Instagram and she said, I've had my first baby. She said, I really love training. I'm trying so hard.

I'm eating well. I still can't get rid of this stomach. She said, what can I do? And obviously, I'm not a physio at all. But I knew from my trick. When I saw the picture, I said to her, have you had that check? Because it looked to me that you've got your ab separation. still your diastasis. I can never say it, diastasis. It was like a turtle shell. I said,

that's nothing to do with what you're eating and how you're moving. I said, that's your muscles post having a baby. I said, can you get access to a physio? Anyway, she didn't, she messaged me back and she said, I had like a six centimeter. So this poor woman is mentally beating herself up thinking, I can't do it. And it was physical abs had separated. So she was then given a rehab program with planks and stuff to try and tighten it and you know you can close it back but if she hadn't had that information she would do me would have been more missing about yeah a mum who my least favorite yeah he's a lot of mom pooch I can't stand it oh yeah they say it's a poohed with your mom tom and I'm just like oh can we stop yeah

we stop with that it's also like unempowering for like part of our work that isn't endo hasn't been sort of endo influence is talking about you know body after those babies. And we've talked, haven't we quite a lot about not just me, but women generally and like they have a bit of a grief, don't they, about what it was like before? Yeah, of course. And I'd say that for myself as well, that you might look back and be like, I used to be able to do, I used to look like this, I used to do. And then your body's done this incredible thing and feels so alien after. I remember looking at myself in the mirror going, I do not recognize. I did the same. Yeah. And it feels it's kind of honouring, trying to help women in, whether it's one to one or in classes, to kind of honour what season they're in, rather than kind of thinking, oh, I need to go back. There's a lot of get your body back.

Back. Back. Can we kind of, I try and try my best to help and drop it. Like, we need to kind of go onwards. And you can build so much strength postpartum. You know, like the woman who messaged you, like, you know, I hope her training has been bab since she's. kind of helped kind of men that diastasis but you can train so well after having a baby if you know what you're dealing with and as you get old you're meant to do weight training as well aren't you as a as a woman heading towards 40 50 yeah yeah yeah oh sure all helps it's absolutely the the most important type of training if we can talk about your particular trainer then is it focused on on weight with emma with with weight training she has a notebook and everything and I don't know what's going on a lot of the time I'm just enduring No, go on, what are we doing?

I don't like to feel, just tell me what I'm doing. Yeah, I do say that. I'm like, I don't want to feel it, let's just do it. Yeah, strength training is my love. Yeah. So, yeah, focusing on like we said earlier, a big kind of compound movement, spema, functional movement,

stuff that helps her get through her day, lift her children, all those kind of movements. You're dead lift, your over-head presses, your rows, trying to have full body strength that you can take into your everyday life and not leave you feeling completely destroyed. The training and the weight training like Gemma and I are massive, massive

advocates for weight training as much for the mental benefits it gives us because I love feeling strong. Does this actually physically ease the pain that you might have been and entering that studio or is it actually is the mental benefit of doing it eases the symptoms?

It's a good question. We've talked a little bit about that at times. You've had some sessions where you've We've made adaptations when you've walked to and said it's, I'm suddenly, it's hard to. Pain started on the way or it's, it's hard. But I talk about it like a weird weather forecast.

Like pain's coming in from the east. Starting to build. There's going to be a storm. But we, I don't think it does help the pain. I think it helps your head. I just, this is why like I've had reflexology. I've had acupuncture. I've had lots of things.

And I have a physical condition. One of my least favorite. things and you know I'm going to cause some controversy with people in the endo community some of them perhaps but one of my least favorite things that is said to women with my condition is to try and unpack your trauma now listen your face says it all fellow northerner right so so there is some work done on this and I am pulling a deliberately skeptical face I do not think there is ever any negativity to having therapy or

unpacking your trauma. Let's just be completely clear. We all have a whole heap of work, I'm sure, to do. And you might not actually have trauma. You might just have had some things in your life that you probably need to address. Yeah. Let's just put that there. But when people link endometriosis to a deep trauma in your past, I don't buy that. So that is my personal. So there is a school of thought that if you heal psychologically, one can heal physiologically. And I do not doubt that if you feel better in yourself, you're not stressed, of course you can feel, but endos a physical condition. It's not psychological. Yeah, if it's hormonal, how's that going to, you need to do both. And so I am a fan. We've talked about fairies and, you know,

you can see I'm not someone who's against things that make you feel nice. Like, I believe in dancing, you know, but when I was having IVF, if I was to use a different example that might be relatable to other women and maybe even more to you guys, when I had IVF, I used to also go to a dance class. I used to also go to reflexology, which I do love. You know, there's an amazing woman locally. She's such a great person. I went and did some weird stuff too, drank some brown herbs.

Like, you know, you do things. Nothing worked until I had IVF. So all the people who are like, what got you pregnant? I'm like, hard medicine. Yeah. Right? And then people used to say to me, and people still write to me to this day,

Emma, I've been told by my doctor, like, you know, IVF doctor and people around, don't do anything stressful during IVF. I again, I'm going to say, I have to. You're working news. I did my last injection to have our son in Downing Street before I interviewed Theresa May. I can tell you, having covered elections and been on election night while doing IVF and run up to, I think if the body responds to the hormones, there is something called biology. And if an embryo is viable to use scientific terms, it will stick around.

Because I tell you, the one before the miscarriage, I did nothing. It wasn't my fault. That embryo wasn't okay, you know. So you have to, it works both ways. Like if you can accept something's not your fault when it's bad, You also have to be okay with stressing your body out and it's still being okay. Do you see what I mean? So there's a lot of blame and like cocooning of women that goes on around, for instance, IVF.

It will work or it won't. And I also, the brown herbs did nothing. I like that approach to it. A friend of mine, she's been trying to have a baby for a while and it's just not happened. And the amount of shame and guilt she has on herself. And like you say, it's not your fault. It's, it does or it doesn't. 51% of miscarriages down to the sperm.

But yeah, everyone else thinks it's the woman. Or not even be higher. Yeah. But it's more than 50. What would your message and advice be for anyone who's perhaps not got the mental strength you have to deal with it yet? A lot of women are not well enough to trade. And I just got to say that.

Like, and there are days I haven't shown up. And there are days where it's not very much that we can do. We've had some hard. So I just want to be. Yeah. Be really honest about that. If you are able to go somewhere and move, I would recommend that. And whatever you need to be able to do that, if a trainer is not near you or you don't

know how to get one or you can't afford one or all three of those things, if you can get a friend to regularly briskly walk with you, I would recommend it on the many, on the levels we've talked about. I just think moving, and Frankie's taught me so much about movement. is key, like for what we thought about. I'm surprisingly, I agree with moving. And like you said, not everyone might be able to access a PT, but with animal flow, like we were saying,

you can do stuff at home or you can get to the park and use space around you if you feel confident with that. But I think meet yourself, the same message would be to mum's postpartum especially, or pregnancy as well. It's to meet yourself where you're at, rather than trying to be anywhere else or further on than you might be as to honour where you are, and if you're experiencing a lot of pain is to move within the capacity you have,

so that whatever you're doing, you leave what you're doing feeling hopefully a little bit better, rather than thinking, I've got to go into a massive training session and load my body a whole ton and feel worse. So it might be something you do for 10 minutes. it might be a walk, it might be with a friend, you might go and do a little train session apart, but my hope is that you would feel better from that. My hope is when your day is that you leave feeling a little bore able to cope.

Yeah, and I do, and that's why I wanted to, like, I think our, you know, your relationship you have with someone who helps you, get fit or learn about things is always really special. You know, I'm like a student of Frankie's as well as like a friend now, but I feel, you know, I've got no disservice of it. when it comes to this. I am really ill-educated about my body to do good things. I've got to work with it and against it a lot of the time.

And I love, but I do love dancing. So I do put on music in the kitchen with the kids and shake myself all about quite regularly. And that does really invigorate me and I have playlists for all occasions. What's the top track? Well, I always write, in a work mode, which I sort of even now, everything's faithless.

It's like hardcore music, so I write all my scripts. You're an old clever ever. It was coming out. And there's indie, there's a lot of indie Mancunian vibes. There's a lot of like house and all sorts in there. Miloko was on last night. I don't know, there's a lot. Were you chuffed about the recent Mancena reunion at Heat and Park?

I would have loved to have gone to eat here too, Peter Park reunion. You know, I'm not going to any way, so I'm bloody gutted about it. I feel I was there. I was original. Could you? Yeah, we could hear it, which was good. but yeah. We have a tradition at the end of this podcast,

which we do with all our guests. We've got some quick fire questions that Claire will go through with you. And then I've got some hack or hate questions. Okay. Where I just ask you something and you both say whether it's a hack and you're all for it or whether it's a hate and you will never do that. Okay. You can both answer.

You do the quick fire one out of us. So Gemma and I have invited ourselves to your houses for dinner. What are you cooking for us? Oh, I know what you're perfect. Go on. Steak. Steak. Do you eat meat?

I do eat meat. You do. I don't eat red meat very often, but I would eat a steak if it's very good quality. So I'm assuming you're only going to serve you up the best. Probably some eggs and veg. Probably some avocado. She's proteining you. I would probably do like a big roast chicken, roast potatoes.

It's how much to be you, is it? I love why you said she's proteining you. Yeah, she is. She is. Red meat. She's good quality, good quality. Right. So you'll go into a day.

Desert Island for 12 months, what's the one thing that you would take? Tweezers. Tweeders. Sorry, that's a new one. Well, we've had some answers to that. Because I forgot them last week in Spain and it was not. Yeah. After the Desert Island, I do so I've listened to and I just think, what on earth would I take?

Well, don't take a piano. Some people really regret that. No. Probably a notebook so I can write down all the things I'm thinking and then tell my crew about it when I get home. Do you do it? Yes. I can I get to go home after the 12 months. Yeah.

Okay, so I can draw things and tell my daughter about what I got up to and my does that. That's a really wordy answer, isn't it? Yeah. You can see a picture of her in there as well. Yes, a little harsh. It's a good one, this one. Right, what is the last thing that made you have a good old belly laugh?

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to eat. We were in the airport and, you know, there's not very much going on there. And he's like, like what? And I went, I just like some meat or something. And he went, mate! And he just kept saying the word meat. And he tries to do a northern accent and it's not going very well. And they just crack me up. It properly cracked me up. So that is the one that came to mind. We watched some good comedy at the weekend. That might be a really easy one. But it was actually with some friends and it became clear that it was incredibly inappropriate comedy to be watching with my friend and her 18-year-old son. And we were all in fits of laughing. But it was awkward.

It was like, no, at least don't. That's not the best ones. Bill Burr, which is always a risky. I don't know. Bill Bill Bill. You maybe, yeah, go and have a little watch. I don't know.

But if you're watching it with, don't watch you with your kids. Don't watch for kids, okay. And maybe not your parents. Okay. My uncle took me years and years ago. I think I was only about 10. You told me to watch the South Park cartoon at the cinema

because he said it's a cartoon you'd like it. All story lies, I'm trying to locate the clitoris. That's the basest, and you didn't realize. It was only when he said it started. He said, like, what I know?

I was sat there, like, thinking, what's going on here? Did he said, you know where it is? He was just, yeah, he always says that's my biggest regret. But that's brilliant. Belly laugh. Taking you to watch South Park, the movie. Brilliant. There's so many things that you think are really quite innocent and once you watch them with your children next

you, you realise Gavin and Stacey is not suitable. No, it actually wouldn't be. It's really not. But then you're like forwarding, fast forwarding. Missing everything. Wine or coffee. Coffee. No drink coffee, never have. Wine all the way.

Wine all the way. No coffee. Oh, I'm a coffee. And you sort of have answered this already, but if there was one thing you want our listeners to do today to make themselves be a little bit better, what would it be? Go for a walk. Yeah.

And don't go with any phone. Just go for a walk. Listen to the sounds around you. And it will, I guarantee walks with me, you feel better. I think I have a kitchen disco. Have a kitchen disc. And then head to yours. Yeah, okay, fine.

Walk to the list. Walk to your house. Yeah. These are your hack or hate, so it's literally whether you're a hater of this or whether it's a hack, you would use it. Getting up at 5am. Hate. Because I have to do it. I'm not doing my job. I wouldn't do it on a regular basis, so a bit of both, really.

I can hate. Drinking lemon water in the morning. Yeah, hack. It's all right. I start with a hot water, I don't like the lemon flavor. Yeah, I just plain water for me, but always water. Yeah, it's good. Yeah.

Had daily meditation. I can't do it. Not a lot of people can. We've had a few guests who've said the trial. I don't hate it. I just let's not in their head. No. I think we're very similar because I can't do it.

I can't. No. My mum would always say if you haven't got time, you probably need to do it. It's not, I think it takes practice, isn't it? Yeah.

So I would say for people to like feel better, it's probably a good hack. But maybe it's not always sitting still. People do it when they're running or walk. Yeah. Because that's meditation. of your body, isn't it? Okay.

Yeah. We've found the way to hack it. I know the answer for em for this. And I probably know yours as well, Frankie. No caffeine after 2 o'clock. Yeah, I'd be flying at all had caffeine. Well, I do still sometimes have a cheeky brute for. Too much for me.

Always doing 10,000 steps a date? I think I do because of the buggy and life. I think it ends up happening. But I haven't stuck to it. I don't check. no screens an hour before bed I think we probably need to have less screens before I'll say it is a hack but I probably don't do an hour before bed

so I've compromised because I like watching telly in bed but I got them you know the blue light blue light blue glasses at Geoffrey Dammer when I wear them but I wear them so I think I'm watching my screen but I'm hacking because it's not affecting my eyes that's where I like it carries the blue light yeah I've got a fair day

Cold showers. I do like cold showers sometimes. I went through a real phase of doing them. I kind of get used to them. People do. It's annoying. It's a good shower. Yeah, I want to be as hot as possible at all times.

Journaling. You're doing it on your Desert Island, aren't you? The desert island. Yeah, I found writing stuff down very helpful. Yeah, I do also like it. And lastly, matcha-flavored everything. Hate. Why is everything?

Well, that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for both coming in. It's been lovely, and I've genuinely learned a lot about, I mean, like I said, I had no idea. When we were on Sunday brunch, scoffing food and alcohol at 10 in the morning, you didn't eat, you didn't drink that much. I definitely had yours, I was pregnant, wasn't I? You were.

But it wasn't announced. Because I was, it passed me 12 weeks. And it was... How old your old baby now? He's just turned two. That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, that's... Because she gave me a colouring book for Mia.

I did. And it was Simon Rimmer because Simon, we did Strictly together and he said to me, why aren't you having a gym? What's wrong with you? Because we used to go out every Wednesday during Strictly. So, oh, it's just a bit early for me.

Yeah, so Simon, it's 90-clock on Sunday morning. I was thinking, I've got a child making me feel like shite, Simon, get that gin away from me. Well, it's very nice to be on your podcast. Yeah, after that. Thank you for having her. Thank you so much. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door,

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