Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - Finding Balance with Fearne Cotton: 'I Oscillate Between Feeling Brilliant and Awful'

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

The wonderful Fearne Cotton joins us to share her experience of balancing wellness, burnout and boundaries - along with the emotional toll of creating content every week for seven years. We talk: ��� Burnout and the myth of balance • What it takes to run a podcast every week • Fearne’s personal wellness rituals • The power of saying no Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.ca. Not everyone's going to like you.

It's just not possible. You don't like everyone. No, correct, exactly. And a lot of the time when we don't like someone, it's based on very little. It's based on our own projection

of the world and how we think everything works. I do think I've come to a place now where I don't really care if you like me or not. That said, if somebody makes a negative comment about my appearance

and social media, it kills me. So there's a contradiction. We've all got these spots, haven't we? These weak spots that we know are there. See, I'm not there yet.

I've been so conditioned. I have to be likable. And if I'm not likable, everything goes. Hello, I'm Gemma Atkinson. And I'm Claire Sanderson, the editor-in-chief of Women's Health. And we've recorded another episode of Just As Well, I say we. I miss this one. You did, sadly.

So Fern Cotton came in to see me last week. She was so disappointed to miss you. Good turn. Because I know that you are speaking at a happy place, her festival, up in Cheshire at the end of August. Yeah. So she was terribly disappointed that you. you weren't able to make it, but you were up in Manchester

because you have another job. Yes. On your radio show. But Fern was, as usual, so open, so honest. It was a really broad, but intimate chat. I'm sure you know Fern talks a lot about her mental health and her OCD and anxiety. And she just went through so much detail with me as a privilege.

And she's obviously a mum as well. So she's working, she's a mum, she's juggling, spinning plates. Yeah, and she admitted that she drops those plates and sometimes she has a little cry. And I just, you know, all those daily goings on that we can all empathise with being working mums and the juggle because she's a powerhouse, Fern. She has a Happy Place podcast.

She has, she's written numerous books. She hosts her Radio 2 show. She has the festival that you're going to be speaking at in Cheshire at the end of the month through. She's just had the one in London. She's a very, very busy woman juggling, but she has two children, the same age as my two, actually. Her eldest is the same age as my son and her daughter is the same age as my daughter. So we were very much on the same journey in terms of the challenges parenting kids those age as well. I'm looking forward to listening because it's actually

refreshing to see, well, hear someone like Fern who you look on the outside, so successful, beautiful, got everything together. So I'm interested to hear about, you know, despite all that, not everyone has all the shit together and that's okay. Yeah, but we don't have all have a shit together. And she says that in her 40s now, you know, we're going into the fluctuating hormone stage of the perimenopause. Sometimes she just wants to have a bath and go to bed early, but she's now actually forcing herself to get out because she sees value in being with friends. So the night we were recording, she was going with her old school friends to watch Craig David.

Oh, that's good. That's nice. Well, yeah, look forward to listening. Here it is Claire's chat with Fern. So Fern, welcome to Jess as well. Oh, thank you very much for having me. You're so, so welcome. So you've come to House of Hearst today, Woman's Health's HQ. You've just told me that you've come hot off reporting your own podcast today. Yeah, Gabby Bernstein today, which was really fun. So we talked about all manner of things. And I have my radio to show before that.

So, yeah, it's been a busy day. Goodness. So I'm getting a little taste of what it's like to host a weekly podcast, but you've been doing it for seven years. So it's quite exhausting, isn't there? A lot goes on that people don't realise. Oh my God, yeah. I mean, it is relentless. I was talking to Elizabeth Day last night because hers is weekly as well. And it is, there's obviously a lot of pre-books to read or films to watch or people to research that you know nothing about or subjects that you need to research that you know nothing about. And it is just that weekly thing of making sure you've got a really good one. one ready to go. And, you know, I think because there are so many podcasts out there, the standards getting higher, so we're all trying to do better. And it is utterly relentless in the best possible way. It's a joy, though, isn't it? It is a joy, though, isn't it?

Apart from that, it's bloody great. Learning, you know, you learn so much. You do. Yeah, it's, I love. You become an expert in something or someone every week, which is quite weird. You know, you do a deep dive and you know more about them than you do like your brother. And then, and then you sort of dispose of that the week. after and then you're on to the next person.

On to the next person. So the last time we saw each other was seven years ago which, yeah, blows my mind absolutely because I feel that you and I are in the same circles and I'm absolutely flabbergasted that we've not seen each other since. So the last time we saw each other

was on the top of the Truman Brewery for those who may not be familiar as an event space in London were actually a disused car park. And we were shooting a woman's health cover and it was seven years ago this summer I cannot believe it. No.

That's mad. It is mad. And it was such a gorgeous shoot. Do you remember it? I do remember it. The skateboard and you were looking so cool. It was great. Well, as I said to you before we started recording,

I remember that shoot so clearly because it was, you know, you get nervous about doing that cover because it's a big deal and you want to look great, you want to feel really good. Wake up in the morning, I'm on my period. Oh. The first day. You're like, why?

Why today? And, you know, you're slightly bloated. little watery on the belly. I was like, this is not what I want for today. Come on. Oh, it is the worst when that happens, but you would never have known on the day. I remember you were scaling steps and... I was climbing all sorts of contractions. I mean, I think if it was now, I would tell everyone on the shoot, by the way, I'm on my period. I think we're talking about this stuff more. Back then I was just like, oh my God, this is so mortifying. Oh, my God, I seem to like cover

my tracks. And do you know what I mean? I was like really secretive about it. Now I'd just be like, guys, I'm on period. I feel like shit. What do we do? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, because it was an almost all-exclusively female crew. Yeah. Even if it wasn't.

Yeah, exactly. Even if it wasn't. They don't get on board with the stuff. They do indeed. But you say, you wouldn't have known. And I was looking at the pictures earlier, actually, in preparation for this. And you haven't changed a bit, but you were... You had your long, flowing blonde hair and you look so cool.

It was a very fern cotton of the time shooter, I think. It was. Yeah, it was. with the skateboard, etc. But so much has happened in the last seven years. So happy place has become a beast. You know, you've got your, the podcast, which is weekly, as we said, and you've had some amazing guests.

Dave Grohl, my life would be made if I had Dave Grohl on a podcast. I wouldn't be able to speak, I don't think, actually. But you get these amazing guests. And then you've got your festival, which you've got two this summer, one in London, one up north. You've got your beautiful children that growing up. You're a mum, you're a great friend. But how are you?

Overwhelmed, actually. I know. Yeah, like I think most of us are, we're just juggling so much. It's so full on. And I'm dropping balls left, right and centre. In all the basic ways, like I had no more, I had nothing the kids liked for breakfast Monday. Nothing.

I had cereal but no milk. I had butter, but no bread. So I'm just dropping lots of balls constantly. I never feeling like I'm doing anything particularly well. but, you know, enjoying most of it, I would say. Enjoying most of it. I feel really lucky that Happy Place is expanding and growing and we've got, we've launched our marketplace this year,

which has been really exciting. And these beautiful little Happy Place edit boxes of products from the small brands that we're supporting. And we're publishing books still. I'm writing another book at the moment. You know, there's always a lot going on. And I'm loving all of it. It's just, again, relentless.

It's just, you know, you finish one thing. You don't get a second. to go, oh, that went quite well. You're just like, what's next, what's next? And obviously, as you know, having kids, it's just constant, again, with like school WhatsApp groups and it's just bloody madness,

the amount of stuff we have to remember every day. Like what uniform? Oh, it's a muffly day. I didn't know it's muffly day. No one told me, like, it's just, it's non-stop. We're all there, all us working homes, and we do drop balls. What coping strategies do you put in place

to try and drop as few balls as possible? List, on my number one. I am old school. It's a pen and a paper on the kitchen counter and it's just full. And every day I try and take a couple of things off of it. Then there's a new list most days of what they need for school or where they're going after school if I can't pick them up, if they're going to someone's house or whatever.

Just if I didn't have those bits of paper, I don't know what I'd do. I would forget everything. I wouldn't have a clue what was going on. So it's very, very paper pen heavy. Bar that, I don't have any strategies. When I drop the balls, I probably have a slight tantrum. Sometimes I have a cry in my car, call one of my best mates and go, are you having a shit show too?

Yeah, okay, few, not just me. Because there is something quite powerful with sharing with friends, isn't it? Because as women, we empathise with each other. But I know I'm guilty of neglecting my female friendships because you get so busy, you forget about them. And before you know it, you haven't spoken for weeks, if not months. I've got a lot better recently with that, because I think I did go through a period of being a real hermit.

I didn't want to go out anywhere. I was so overwhelmed, especially with my old schoolmates. It was still my core friendship group are from school. And we're so, so close. I'm going out with them tonight to see Craig David, which will be, we'll just regress back to being 15, essentially. But we try at least twice a year to all to get together. And actually, I saw two of them last weekend.

So we're doing really well this year. We're like to sing each other a lot. That friendship group feels more important to me today than it ever has. So I am trying to put more time and energy into. that side of my life. Because those friends that you have from childhood are the core friends that I think you'll take through to the grave.

You've got to be too bleak about it. And they're some of them, my two best friends whom I met in school, and we're actually going to a wedding and Ireland together on Friday. We're very different women. You know, one is an army officer. The other one's a head teacher. I'm in the media. Our paths wouldn't have crossed in adulthood.

Yeah, same as my mates. Yeah. Yeah. But we have that bond that is born in childhood because sometimes friends that you make an adulthood can be quite transient and they're friends for a space in time. When you party in, like you partied in your 20s, I partied in the 20s, you had your friends there, but they fall to the wayside a bit, don't they? Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. And I think, you know, you do, you're so right, you do have those friends that come and go. And I've made friends even in the last sort of five years that have come into my life for a certain reason and I'd love them dearly and I'm equally trying to nurture

of those friendships. But I think the ones you have, if you're lucky enough to still have friends from childhood, it is so special. And we've got almost a shorthand, you know, how we talk, we all talk exactly the same. We sound like each other. We're million miles an hour, gathering away. But we know each other's, like, the entirety of our adult life and childhood. You know, we know each other's stories and we know what makes each other tick and laugh. And also, for me, they've known me from way before I started in this career some of them and I definitely need that you know because it is a weird fickle industry so they're not impressed by famous phone you know it's

oh not me no they couldn't give a shit about that they're occasionally impressed if I'm you know like taking them to Craig David tonight or you know I introduce them to someone that they quite like that's famous you know that's that is exciting yeah but me god no absolutely not your friends must have really come to the fall recently as well because you've been through some personal health struggles. Yeah. You were diagnosed with the benign tumour. Yeah.

It was in your jaw. It was my saliva gland. It's called the carotid gland. It was on the side. I still can't feel my ear at all. It's totally dead. So yeah, I had that removed in December. I mean, it wasn't too bad.

It was kind of, the procedure was, you know, relatively straightforward. There's obviously always risks with things like that. And there was, you know, you've got this nerve that runs through your face. And obviously, if there was, trauma to that, you'd lose any facial movement, which I was obviously scared about. But the recovery wasn't too bad. I was sort of out for a month over the course of December. I just sort of saw a few people. I was very, very tired, so we didn't see that many people. But actually, it was quite nice to press pause in a way, because normally December is just...

Mental. Insane. And I literally watched, like, Love Actually and sat on the Sover. There was bits of it that were kind of needed, I would say. I look but one show with a friend you do have is Davina and she came to your rescue your emotional rescue

because she herself has been through a huge health trauma we love Davina at Woman's Health you know she's on our cover of recently those pictures were so hot oh my God she's one of my all time favourite people Devena because she's so positive

and I can imagine having her in your pocket at that time oh my God we spoke a hell of a lot I mean we do speak a hell of a lot anyway but we really did over that period because I'd seen her I think, I don't know when it was, slightly earlier on in the year,

and she told me that she was having her operation. You know, I was like, well, if I can support her in any way I will. And then, I don't know, three, four weeks later, I got my diagnosis and was like, you are not going to believe this. You know, it was just so bizarre, coincidental. And her procedure was before mine. And her partner, Michael, was amazing, staying in touch when she couldn't. And then when I was recovering in December, we spoke, we spoke on.

a lot on the phone actually. And she was just brilliant and lovely and her just usual joyful self. She's just the best. She's as nice as for anyone that hasn't met her. She's like, she's almost better in real life. If that's possible,

she gives the best hugs you've ever had. She listens to everything you're saying. She really cares. She's like deeply caring person. She's just bloody great. Yeah, I would, I would, yeah, a divina hug. I've had one of those and you want you want to let go.

You can't let you. No, no. Not allowed. Sometimes it goes on for an awkward amount of time. It could be like a minute and you think, do I tap her back so we like, we know that it's ended? But you don't, you just think, I'm just going to lean and enjoy every minute of this. Thanks very much. Yeah, it can be quite disarming because we're not a tactile society, aren't it? Oh, the Brits.

No, we're not. Very awkward. But you just have to surrender to it, as you say. It's lovely. And it's not one of those, you know, some people hug you and they take from you. She gifts. She's hugging and she's like depositing energy. onto you. Some people hug you and you're like, oh Christ, I'm drained after that. God, why did you hug me for so long? You just stole all my energy. She's like, giving you something. Oh, it's the best. Because transparency is very important to you. Why did you feel the need to speak publicly about your tumour and the operation that you went through afterwards? I mean, I was sort of dubious whether I should or not because you don't know what's going to happen if it's going to go well or not. And it does sort of feel extra personal, I guess talking about stuff like that. But weirdly, before I went in for the operation, I was chatting to a pretty good friend of mine. And she's a newer friend, but I'm really close to her. And she went, I had that two years ago.

I was like, what? You had this two years? I didn't know that about you. I had no clue because I'd met her after the operation. And I thought, God, you know, I thought it was this really niche thing. But I was like, I'm sure other people have, you know, had this diagnosis or something similar. And, you know, you feel very relieved that it's benign. But there's obviously still risks involved or whatever.

So I just sort of thought, I'd rather talk about it and use it as a hopefully helpful springboard for other people if they've got something a bit nerve-wracking coming up. And I guess also I knew I was going to kind of be off social media and not working for a bit. And without explanation, that could look more sinister than it needs to be. And I guess just sort of normalising this stuff. Like, you know, people go through health stuff. It's pretty common. And I just thought I'd rather people know about it than shy away from it. Because you've always been very open about your health struggles.

Your memoir comes self-help book from 2007, Happy. I think maybe was the first time that you were open about your struggles with depression, anxiety, and OCD. Is that the reason why you've always chosen to be open? Because it can help other people. You're in this privileged position where you are well-known, and therefore you can offer support to women who may be struggling, and have no one to confide in and feel very alone in their journey? Well, I mean, I definitely wasn't honest for years and years

because I didn't say anything about anything until I was, you know, in my 30s, really. I just was a presenter and you just turn up and read AutoQue and go home. And I didn't feel there was any space to say anything other than I like my job, you know, and that's that. But obviously, way before that, I'd had an eating disorder and I felt deeply ashamed about that, actually. I didn't talk about having bulimia until, I don't know, like my mid-30s, late 30s. I don't know how old I was, but I was very uncomfortable talking about that. I had a real thing about it. And then when I sort of first talked about mental health, I was terrified.

I definitely didn't think this is going to help loads of people. I just kind of thought, I'm a bit bored of pretending that I'm happy on the radio when I actually feel like shit. And as I was opening up to friends about it, not very many, you know, like two. Because again, I felt, I guess not, I didn't feel ashamed about the depression I was experiencing. I just felt extremely isolated. Like I thought, no one else is, you know, you get quite narcissistic in that headspace. Like, no one else has ever felt this bad. Like, they can't have felt this bad.

And then, you know, immediately I had a friend who I had no clue had been through panic attacks. And that's why I started to think, all right, this is something that many, many, people are dealing with and I definitely think that talking about it isn't going to be as bad as I'm imagining but I still scared and I didn't think I was going to help anyone. God no, I had no clue that any of this would turn into what I'm doing today. I just thought I'll write a book and see what happens really. I had nothing to lose because I'd sort of started quitting everything I was doing and then it turns out that you know some people that that book deeply resonated with some people and that allowed me to do other stuff so I think that's when I started to realize oh okay maybe

if I talk about bulimia or whatever else is going on for me, that will help other people. But it wasn't, it didn't initiate the conversation for me at all. I didn't assume I'd help anyone whatsoever. So it was a coincidence, a positive coincidence if they can be, a positive outcome that you chose. Because I took over woman's health in 2017 and I remember vividly at the time that the conversation around mental health wasn't what it is today. Because I have a history of depression. and I've been hospitalized in the past in my 20s.

You know, I'm fine now. I don't take medication. I manage it through exercise and nutrition, which we can come on to your coping strategies. But I wrote about it in women's health. I remember in 2017, and I encouraged other women to do so. I remember Frankie Bridge was one of them.

Yeah, she's been brilliant. Yeah, and the impact it had. But I remember at the time being dissuaded by someone senior at hers, who was no longer up with us, around at the company. She's not dead. Yeah. And she said, think carefully before you put this out there because you'll always be known as the editor with mental health issues. Yep, I had the same. And it just goes to show the stigma that exists then. And I remember thinking, well, no, if we're doing a mental health issue, I have a responsibility to be honest about my own struggles.

I'm without doubt. People look to people like you, you know, who have climbed the ladder, top of your game and would assume, oh, I got it all sorted. Your life's absolutely power. And you must just be feeling so great about yourself. And I think to spell that myth is deeply powerful. It doesn't matter who you are. You know, it doesn't discriminate. What's going on in your brain is entirely separate to what other people assume your lifestyle is.

So I think there is something really powerful in dispelling that myth. In my research for this, I've read so many quotes that you have given over the years that I could have written myself. I feel we're very, very similar, Thun. And one of them was, I oscillate between feeling really, quite brilliant and really quite shit and there's very little middle ground and I think that was from your woman's health interview

which is seven years ago is that something you still feel? Yeah I tend to my personality tends to really cling on to the highs and be like euphoric and just flying and I'm quite speedy everything's really quick and I'm talking really quickly and I'm like the energy is there

and I've done a million things and it's only 9 a.m and I'm just like everything's really working and then really plummeting and feeling really quite dreadful and sort of forgetting that I have the propensity to feel anywhere near, brilliant. It's probably to a lesser degree than it was then. And I guess I've got a slightly different mindset in ways. But I think that is probably still my natural inclination is to just really rollercoaster it like this.

Another one that you said more recently, I crave being on my own with nothing to do. But then when I'm in it, I feel a bit lost. So I sort of have to push myself to actually feel great because I actually feel great when I've had a good experience with people. I can't tell you how deeply that resonates with me and it's gotten more intense in my 40s

to the point where I feel quite antisocial. Yeah. And I have to force myself to do things and go out because I convince myself I'm too tired, you know, I want to go to bed. But then once I've forced myself there, I'm very, very pleased that I've done so. Do you think this is something

there is intensifying for you as you head into your 40s. Our hormones are all over the place. The perimenopause. You've got that all to deal with on top of everything else. So many things to look forward to. I think it was probably worse in my 30s. I think I felt utterly overwhelmed. I hadn't done...

I'm in weekly therapy, which I feel very lucky to do. And I was really sketchy with therapy in my 30s. I'd do a bit, then I'd stop. I'd make headway, then I'd regress slightly. And I went very hard. permit like in my 30s because I was just so overwhelmed. But I think what I've recognised more recently in my 40s is that sometimes yes, I'm tired and we should listen to our bodies and say, do you know what, I don't want to go out tonight. But also, I've managed to pinpoint the moments

where I avoid socialising because I know it's more to do with the anxiety around, will I say something stupid? Will people be judging me? Will I be looked at? And it's just all of that noise that comes with being around people, but I only seen in a very negative mindset that makes me think, I'm safer at home. If I stay at home, I don't have to deal with talking to anyone, saying something wrong, doing something wrong, something happening that I don't want to. So if I just stay at home, I'm safe. And actually, that feels more like I'm retreating from life rather than, you know, going out, taking the risk of experiencing whatever is thrown at you socially. But it probably being all right actually because I can catastrophize hugely. And, you know, like tonight, I am actually

retired and I probably could do with the bath and bed. But I know I'm going to be with my old schoolmates and we're going to have a right laugh and we're going to have a bit of a dance. And I'll wake up tomorrow thinking, I'm so, like I might feel a bit tired, but that was so fun. We've made some great memories for the memory bank. We'll talk about this for weeks on end afterwards. It's usually a good idea. So I'm getting better at pushing myself into that and noticing the moments where I know it's based around that interaction rather than being tired. It's more about the paranoia of what people are thinking about me or, you know, they're not. We're all thinking about ourselves. With MX Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only

satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. When the dark thoughts appear that depression and anxiety can throw out of nowhere, because for me, I can feel fine going to bed and then wake up the next day and know that I feel shit. And it can go on for three, four, five days and then disappear. Yeah.

My coping strategies are. to exercise if I can force myself to, because you often, that's the last thing you want to do. And eat well. I now don't drink very often because I can't cope with the following day. But I've worked out strategies that work for me. You know, I know sugar is a demon for me.

So I try and avoid sugar. But also, a coping strategy is a bit to sort of remove myself away from life a little bit, to allow myself space, just to experience what I'm going through. What are your coping strategies when? Because I know you have OCD as well, don't you? Yeah, it comes and goes with anxiety.

So, like, weirdly, actually, last night, I was just talking about this on the podcast earlier. You know, sometimes I forget that it's there. And last night I was playing catch with my son with like a rugby ball in the garden. And in my head I was like, you better catch this next one because if you don't, something that I can't even say out how dreadful is going to happen.

And I dropped the ball and I was like, oh, shh. shit. And I started panicking slightly and I was like, no, no, just keep shit together, keep playing ball. And I was doing it again if you just drop the next one. And I was just lost in the catastrophizing of it and this awful thought loop. And then weirdly, I was interviewing

a comedian this morning, Susie Ruffle and I was talking about OCD. And I was like, in my head it clicked, I was like, oh, last night was OCD, of course it was. I forget. I forget that those little thought loops or those games I play with myself, you know, know, whether it's walking on certain paving stones or having to, you know, get to a green light before it goes red. All of that stuff that is so imbuilt in me, I often forget that it's OCD or like if it's like safety checks in the house.

You know, last night I had to do it. I was obviously a bit of an OCD thing last night and I had to check all the locks on the windows and the doors twice. And normally once is enough and I touch all the hobs. But again, I didn't have that clarity in a moment to go, this is just OCD. It's not real. You don't need to do. bad's going to happen if you don't do this. And I guess, I mean, I try and put things in place.

I don't always manage it. But like you, keeping it simple with trying to exercise, eat well. Is yoga still your thing? Yoga and running, are they still your things? Yeah, yoga is good for a brain like mine because it's just, it flatlines. I can just calm and slow everything. I think also as I'm getting older, strength is obviously something that I want to focus on. and yoga is great for strength.

I think some people just think it's all about being flexible or just lying around, but you've got to be so strong and your core, so I'm really, really honing in on that. And I do love running just for Headspace again. I have good ideas when I'm running. Tend to mix those two things up. I also like this streaming service called The Class,

which is like a New York-based streaming service. It's kind of dance and a bit of yoga, a bit of other thing. Like, weird, it's weird, weird, but great. You make noises. sort of grunting and shouting. And then I guess, yeah, just go, you know what? It's not even practical stuff. It's like going easy on myself.

Like the last two nights, I've slept like shit. And I've eaten badly the last two days. I've not exercised because work's been so busy. And the key to me not spiraling is to be nice to myself. So you've mentioned that sleep is something that you struggle with. Yeah. I think that's our age as well. I think, you know, I'm a little bit older than you.

I'm 47 now. and it just gets a little bit worse. It's just, we've just got to suck it up, I don't know. It's so bad. But one thing I do is I try and track my health data on a wearable. I'm wearing a galaxy ring at the moment. Do you find health data useful in a setting where you're at? The sleep thing for me has been the most fascinating

because sometimes I wake up and I'm like, I haven't slept a wink. I've just been laying there all night with thoughts. So then actually I look on my phone and I'm like, I've done seven hours. And it says like, good, what? So then I've got a spring in my step. And I'm like, actually, this is, I can cope. This is fine. Maybe I was only awake for 45 minutes.

So that's been the biggest surprise for me in terms of the sleep tracking is I'm sleeping better than I'm imagining, which is great. So the sleep tracking, but also for my menstrual cycle because, you know, as we've discussed at this age, all things changing. And my periods are going from like 33 days down to 23 days cycle. back to 30, like it's all over the shop. So again, I didn't use to track them at all back in the day. I just crack on and know they'd be pretty regular 28 days. That for me is imperative that I know what's going on and where I am in my cycle. Because then that's affecting sleep and energy and all sorts.

And also I'm just big on a step count. I love knowing that I've got my steps in, like very basic. But if I've had a day where I can't do a workout or do yoga, just knowing actually, oh, I haven't been that sedentary. I have actually done 6,000 steps just from going up and down the stairs, getting the kids' uniform or whatever it might be. I think that makes me feel better about myself too. It's amazing how many steps you do on a weekend for me,

especially when I'm here there and everywhere, dropping kids off at sport, walking around the fields, up and down the stairs, doing the washing. And you go, oh, I've done 12,000 steps. It's great. I know. You don't have to actually go on a walk. It's just like you being a human.

But it's just nice to know that you've got that there. Like I love, because I'm a list person. I just like anything that is listed and factual at the end of the day, love. And if I haven't tracked it, it hasn't happened. So I have to, even if I'm just walking to the shops. Yeah, it doesn't count it. Yeah, yeah. I know, I'm like that.

Exactly. But walking is so good for you. Across Woman's Health platforms, content on walking, people cannot get enough of it. It's so good for not just low-intention. intensity exercise, which for our age is great for just overall health, but mental health as well. Clarity, clarity of thoughts, just fresh. Yeah. Just like, I can get really, I'm sure you can like stuck on my laptop for hours on end.

And actually to give yourself just a bit of fresh air to break up the day, oh my God, I love going out walking or just like going with a mate. I'd rather go for a walk and a talk rather than a coffee and a chat. So I've been doing walking meetings. So if somebody says, would you like to meet for a coffee from a brand or something? I say, yes, but we can go for a walk down to St. James's Park. Oh, so nice. Around the lake, back. Takes about 45 minutes.

Love that. It's perfect. Otherwise, you just sit and have another coffee. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I've started doing. I love that. So we've talked about you are spinning so many plates.

You are an entrepreneur because you basically launched a startup. Yeah. Happy Place is a startup. And to make it the success that it has become, you have to be a good leader. Yeah. So what are your leadership strategies? I'm still working them out. I think especially with Happy Place, the culture has to match our output.

Otherwise, I'd be seriously jarring. So we hire really nice people that really get it and love it and are equally as invested, especially the podcast team, because, you know, they're sat with me in there having these chats and they need to feel equally as excited and connected to the content as me and the audience, because we know it needs to be edited into a trailer, we need to have the audio edited. It has to be like the subject matters have to be understood. So everyone on the team gets what we're trying to do. They're all really lovely people.

The atmosphere amongst the team is lovely. Like we've got the festival coming up this weekend. And although it is a monster and it's hard work, like the festival team works so hard. we do know that we'll all actually get so much from it and enjoy the whole process. And on the Sunday, I end up crying on the team because I'm sort of overwhelmed and I love them all so deeply. And I just want everyone to be enjoying it as much as possible. It's not always enjoyable, there's bits that are boring, bits that are stressful, problems that occur. I don't know what my leader's strategy is.

I guess I'm trying to just be open and be 100% myself in front of everyone. I don't want there to be this barrier. You know, before we start a podcast, we did one this morning. We'll have a catch-up. What's everyone been up to? What dramas are going on in your life? And, you know, get stuck into these subjects. And, yeah, I just want it to be a nice place to work, really.

I feel it's always good to make sure everyone's got a voice. Yeah. Regardless of their level of seniority. Because sometimes the most valued opinions are actually the most junior members of staff who really are out there with their finger on the pulse. And I've worked at autocratic places. where senior management will only speak to their comrades in arms or just beneath them and don't know the names of people

who are further down the chain. Yeah, that's not good. And it sounds like that's the complete opposite of Happy Place. Yeah, I'd also, there isn't really like any tiers or levels. Like, everyone's just got a job. And we're all just trying to do the same thing. So I've never looked at it as like people are more senior than others. Like we have really regular board meetings.

People from all the different divisions, whether it's the marketing team or the festival team or, audio or whatever it is or social media and our PR everyone chips in and has someone's idea will feed into another project and it's nothing to do with them at all they're just like oh have you thought about this or or i liked when you did this and everyone sort of shares and and discusses everything and and that feels really healthy when we're all together and and all the pieces of the puzzle sort of fit and and i you know brand new ideas have come from those meetings just from one person you know having one thought. And I think it's quite important to constantly press reset, refresh, like,

don't take it for granted that the podcast is doing all right. What are we doing here? Are we up to scratch? You know, and really make sure that we're growing in the right way. It's not about growth for me in terms of we need to be the biggest in the world. It's like, who are we reaching and who are we missing out here in the conversation and how can we be doing better? So that makes it exciting the whole time, I think, as well. So my co-host, Gemma, couldn't be here today and she sends her apologies, but she is going to be at happy place in Tensia. It's going to be so lovely having her there. She is an absolute gem.

She's a... So you're very lucky. I'm very sorry. She was very sorry that she couldn't be here today, but she... Happy to see her then. She hosts her daily show up in Manchester on Hits Radio. I know she's looking forward to seeing you at the end of August. I'm so grateful that she's coming, yeah.

It's going to be really lovely. We have such a nice audience, especially the Northern Festival. Northerners are so nice. And it's just everyone there is so up for it, wanting to learn something, try something new. So she'll get a great reception. What strikes me about you, Fern, is that you seem to have this innate confidence and sense of self. Is that something that's always been there? Because listening to you talk about your 30s, it doesn't sound like it was or your 20s.

But sitting here now, having this lovely intimate conversation, you seem really self-assured. Is that something that's come with age? I think it's come full circle. I think I was like that, you know, as a kid, like all kids, you're just a kid. And then I started in telly when I was 15, 16, and I still felt like that. And I was really lucky I worked with a brilliant team of people who really nurtured, like it was me and Reggie and some other kids. And we're very, very lucky, we were really looked after. And I held that confidence and that sense of self.

I think until I started in adult TV, like doing Top of the Pops or moving to radio, where you haven't got the luxury of a producer checking in that you're feeling okay or that you're managing. It felt like I was in the big wide world and it was all very scary. And I think that's where I started to question myself. And obviously that's, you know, no coincidence. It was then kind of you're open up to an adult audience and then social media comes along and you're getting feedback.

I had no feedback on kids TV. I just went home and was like, that was fun. That was it. I never thought about it again. So I think I started to lose that sense of who I was, especially when I was at radio, you know, you've got like these text screens with just people's messages coming in and it's constant. And then Twitter came about and then it was Twitter and now it's Instagram and all these other things. And I think for a while I really conflated outside opinion with what I believed about myself.

So anything anyone said, I was like, oh yeah, that's true. That must be true. Whereas now I don't do that. I'm like, okay, this person's obviously angry right now, but not about me because I don't even know me or whatever it might be. I can create that division, whereas before it was just, I was an open, open door, bring it all on. Tell me what you think of me. Go for it. I don't care. You know, but then I started to believe it. And that's where my mental health just went so downhill from that point onwards. Because the job you're in, you're, you know, you're putting yourself up a public scrutiny every time you go to work. There's not many industries where you have to deal with that.

And then the emergence of social media would have intensified. matters. Not conducive to good mental health. No, it's absolutely not. Like I'm nowhere near on the same level of being well known as you, but I still, I'm on Instagram and for every 200 positive comments I may receive, if you receive one negative one, you'll focus on it. I know. It's the absolute pits. And I think you do have to learn to just see it as it's somewhat,

it was a thought in someone's head that has now gone. And they decided to write it down for whatever reason. And that's, it's not. nothing more than that. But in the moment, it can feel, especially if you're not in a good headspace, which, you know, back when I was doing Radio One, I wasn't. But I was still receiving a lot of that. And it nearly took me under. You know, I nearly, I didn't nearly quit, but I was very close to questioning everything in my life at that point. Like, why am I doing this to myself? Why don't I just go and have a quiet life somewhere? Yeah. And luckily I didn't, because I love what I do. And I'm glad that I didn't

give up. I'm glad that I do sometimes look back and think, how on earth did I carry on? I think it was just a whole big kind of tumble dryer of stuff going on through my 20s and 30s. And I think something about turning 40, I'm about turning 44, something about turning 40 in quite a cliched way, slightly shifted, it wasn't like an overnight, slightly shifted something. I'll say the last sort of four years, I've just gradually started to feel like, God, I better see. I'm just see. the day a bit more here. Like, what am I doing? You know, and I think, you know, you lose people, people die and that's a cliche wake up call of like, oh, this is all quite fragile, actually, and I can't take any of this for granted. So I better be really leaning into the good bits

and also getting what I can out of the bad bits and learning. And that's really helped me, yeah, live life more fully. And that doesn't mean like, yeah, living life to the max. It means just like experiencing it all and not beating myself up for as badly when things go wrong. And I think, you know, with age you do know yourself better, but I feel like I've gone back to me as a teenager, just feeling like, yeah, I want to do life how I want to do it. You know, say no when it's right and set boundaries when I need to and not be scared to do it. And the big thing for me is, is having this clarity of like, when am I acting from a place of needing to be liked

because my whole career has often hung in the balance of whether I'm likable or not. And if I'm liked, I've got a job and if I'm not, I'm fucked. And I'm still, that is a work in progress. I'm still trying to get my head around that and I'm trying to care less

about being liked by everyone. I think that is something that comes in your 40s because I'm slowly getting to a place where I can't care less if you like me. But I did use, that did use to worry me, even though I work in the catthroat world of the media

where it's very competitive and you have to have sharp elbows. But I do think I've come to a place now where I don't really care if you like me or not. That said, if somebody makes a negative comment about my appearance on social media, it kills me. So there's a contradiction. We've got these spots, haven't we? These like weak spots that we know we know are there. See, I'm not there yet.

I'd like to be where you're at where I'm like, I couldn't give a shit. I'm not there yet. But I think I've been so conditioned that I have to be likable. And if I'm not likable, everything goes. And I've got to just get the perspective on that a bit in a more balanced fashion and go, it's not the end of the world. Not everyone's going to like you. It's just not possible.

You don't like everyone. So not everyone's going to like you. Correct. Exactly. And a lot of the time when we don't like someone, it's based on very little. It's based on our own projection of the world and how we're, we think everything works, it doesn't mean anything necessarily detrimental to that person. It's just our own little weird projection based on our idiosyncrasies and how we see things. But it's hard to remember that when you're on the receiving end.

And I'm really wanting to get to where you are with that one. A little thicker skin. Yeah. Yeah. Sneed. My skin's getting more wrinkly, but thicker. I haven't got a single wrinkle. You're looking, you haven't been bloody change in seven years.

Oh, stop it. We've talked about the menace of social media and the fact that we both have children. We have, I have a teenage boy, you have a boy who's shortly to be a teen and we have tween girls. It's terrifying. And managing it is a constant battle.

For instance, we have relented in our house to allow my eldest to go on Snapchat because we didn't allow him on there, but it became apparent that he was, was being excluded because everyone is on Snapchat and that is how they communicate. So we've given in and allowed him on Snapchat but the agreement is that we have access to his phone. At any time, this chat with a girl at the moment happening, but we're, you know, it's all very

innocent and we, but what particularly worries me is my daughter, Nell and body image. Yeah. And the societal and social media pressures put upon young girls and young women. for body image. And I try my very best to put out a positive representation of feeling happy in oneself, even if it's fake a lot of the time, because my insecurities started when I was about five, generally, an incessant weighing. And you said yourself that you went through an eating disorder. But I try my best to set positive examples for Nell, such as her seeing me lift weights, for instance. So it's like, look at mummy, she's strong. How did you deal with that in your household?

I mean it's definitely all scary And I I guess I sort of sway between Being terrified by it Especially with my daughter Batty queer with my son Because we all know The sort of dangers there

With young boys and whatnot Neither of mine have got phones yet And I'm just dreading the day But I know it's gonna Out of necessity happen for You know he's gonna want to go out on his own For safety he's going to need one Yeah

But it's more the social media aspect I think worries me But then I think I do sway also So to thinking, okay, yes, there are those dangers. But what we didn't have growing up was any positive messaging at all about anything to do with the female body. And that does exist now online. And I love that. I'm here for that.

And I think, I'm hoping that there is more balance today. Whereas we were just bombarded with media. And it was all very controlled. And it was controlled by big companies rather than individuals. And I think now there's more autonomy for people online to go. You can look and be however you want to be. Let's celebrate that. And I really, I'm trying to lean more into that side of it where I can. I think personally in the home, I don't know if I've consciously said or not said anything in front of my kids. I've always been very vocal about periods in front of both kids because I don't want honey to feel like it's some weird thing that happens to women and it's terrifying and scary. And I want Rex to be understanding of what they are. In terms of body image, I think I just always talk about bodies in any shape and size positively because I had such a rough time in my late teens and 20s.

And I love cooking, so I'm constantly cooking. Rex loves cooking, thank goodness. So he's really getting into it. Honey's not quite there yet. So food's a big part of the conversation. I do big lunches often, big dinners, get lots of friends over and family and make food like a real celebration. But yeah, she's yet to say anything about her own body. It's probably around the corner.

She's turning 10 in the summer. And I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. And I just want there to be open dialogue about all subjects in the house, nothing to sort of be off limits, I guess. Because you're right. When you think back to our childhood,

your child of the 80s, early 90s, women were shame for having cellulite. You know, the front of the magazine. Shame for just existing. You'd see these bikini pictures where women badly lit because they're on a beach. Everyone's got cellulite on the beach.

And or the diets, you know, the three cereal bowls a day diets and the shakes. And there's no wonder we are a generation of women who hate our bodies. It's unbelievable. I think our generation had it really hard throughout that era. I mean, I had one of those circles put around me when I was, I'd given birth probably three months before when I was in the sea. And I got out, I'd like a tit hanging out here, obviously, and lactating boobs.

And, you know, I've just had a baby. And I don't know what it's. said I didn't even read it, but I was just like, sure, plastered out on the front of a magazine, me clambering out the sea looking, you know, not my best. I've just had a baby. Do you know what I mean? Of course my body's going to look different. I've just, my stomach's just been stretched out here. I'm breastfeeding. I want to feel proud about that. And I think these days, this was years ago when Honey was born, it's nearly 10 years ago. I think today I'd be like, I'd call them out. And I would celebrate the fact that I've got big old milky tits and be loving it, you know,

but we were so shamed into, yeah, like you say, hating our bodies, just hating them. And I do think we've got something to counterbalance that today, which is really positive. You're absolutely right, because the representation of female bodies is far more diverse. There's a celebration for really strong-looking bodies now. So, you know, women are really proudly owning their glutes and their shoulders, and there's a lot of body acceptance movement. So that imagery is there, but then we're also living in a cultural filters. Yeah.

And the very augmented body shape that is hero worshipped on certain reality TV shows. And it's trying to navigate that and explain to our daughters. And then for young boys, the porn, you know, young boys are consuming more porn that I'm sure our boys are not at their age, but it's coming their way soon. And so you, right, we have to have the open. dialogue between the boys and the girls. We do, we do. And I think all subjects have to cross over. You know, I don't want it to be like, these are issues

for honey to deal with and issues for recs. Like, let's talk about all of it and make sure that they always feel like they can safely come to me and say, I'm a bit worried about or this is bothering me. I think that's the main thing. Because, you know, every kid teen will go through something at some, whether it's bullying or whatever it is,

they'll go through something. So I think knowing you can go to an adult that you trust is so key. And also I think with Instagram, like trends have been around forever. There's always going to be trends. It's, you know, just how the world works, I guess. It's just being able to, I guess, alert your kids or kids in your life to the fact it's a trend. It's not set in stone like this is beauty. This is what you need to look like.

It's like there'll be a new one next year, you know. Make up your own trends. Be you. Fern, you've achieved so much to get to where you are now. If you could speak to Fern, 10, maybe 15 years ago, what would you say to her? I'd definitely say just go easy on yourself. Just, you know, don't believe what everyone else is saying about you.

Don't take on their opinions. That's for them to do. It's nothing to do with you. I guess there's a couple of moments where I really wish I could have stood up for myself or spoken out loud to certain people and told them how I felt, which I didn't do successfully at all. But I don't know because as much as I would love to have erased certain parts of my past or not gone through certain things,

I wouldn't be doing any of what I'm doing today without it. And I probably wouldn't be where I am mentally without having been to some of those places. So I don't know. I think I'd just say, get ready. It's going to be some rough bits. But there's going to be some bloody good bits to. and remember to really lean into them and not feel scared that you don't deserve them or they're going to disappear or that, you know, something bad's going to happen if you really,

really enjoy them. Just really lean into the good bits. Well, I've loved chatting to you today. I'm going to finish up with some quick-fire questions. Okay. And I didn't give you the heads up on these, so you really are answering them. Nothing to worry about. So I've invited myself round your house for dinner for one of these meals that you've mentioned. What are you cooking me?

I'm going for a heavy Mexican period at the moment. So I'm making like a Mexican spread. I love Thomasina Myers' books. They're just fantastic. So I'd make just the wicked Mexican spread. Lovely. A bit of guac. Yeah. Halapino.

I made lovely Mexican fritters the other day. And this gorgeous spring onion souser, like charred spring onion souser. It's making me salivate thinking about it. Nice. Lovely. So you're going on a desert island for the year. What's the one thing that you've

take? Excluding people that I love, it's my pillow, which I can't sleep without. I take it everywhere. It requires half a suitcase. It's a memory phone one and I cannot sleep without it. So if you were going abroad with the kids on a nice beach holiday, you take your pillow. No shit. Yeah. I went to Newcastle for a day last week and I took it in a massive suitcase. Yoga, running or waits forever. You must choose one. I'm going yoga. I thought you would say mad. What's your go-to Sunday evening box set? Ooh.

Oh, God, I've barely watched any telly recently because my kids are going to bed so late. What have I loved? I loved White Lotus, quite cliche. I know I've watched something else. Oh, you know what? I loved last one laughing. I loved it.

I've seen that. for six hours of TV you will ever watch. And what channel is that on? Prime, I believe. Yeah. It's going to be a lot of that for tonight. Well, I think you've answered the next question then. What has given you the biggest belly laugh recently?

It's my friend Rebecca, who I was seeing tonight. She will kill me, saying this, but I had a party at my house. And we all got stuck into the margaritas. And at one point, I caught her singing, fog on the thine to deck off Anton Deck. And I was like, just going to remove you from this situation and bring you over here. And the next day, I mean, we were crying. We were crying with laughter record.

And she was getting the words wrong? And how was Dech responding to being serenaded? Because he's the nicest person ever. He's just laughing. But deep regret from me and Rebecca on that one. So next party can I come? Yeah. I bought a smoke machine and everything.

It was so fun. I love margaritas. I love Anten Deck. So, yeah. I'm there, asking him something Welsh, if you like. What's the one thing you want everyone listening to do today to make themselves feel out a little bit better? Be nice to yourself.

Think about how you talk to your best mate or your kid. You would never be as cruel to your best friend in the world as you are to yourself. Absolutely. Think about that thing that's niggling, that's bugging you that you don't like about yourself or the thing you said a year ago that you're still worrying about. Attack that with compassion.

Stop beating yourself up. because we all do it and it is so unnecessary and it is the thief of joy. Absolutely is. Well, then on that note, thank you so much. It's been a joy. Let's not leave it seven years. No, we mustn't.

Come around for the Mexican and the party. Let's just join, do that all together. Exactly, a Mexican party. But thank you for coming on Jess as well. Thank you, Claire. Thank you. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded.

So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time you. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. Said you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. So update on Dave.

It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great.