Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - How To Build A Healthy Dating Life

Episode Date: February 13, 2020

It’s Valentine’s Day - three words guaranteed to trigger an emotional reaction, be it a warm fuzzy feeling, an eye roll, or something in between the two. So this week, we’re talking about a goal that will feel pertinent to many at the moment, that is, building a healthy dating life. On paper, it’s never been easier to meet someone, but digital dating and mental health don’t always go hand in hand. How do you deal with rejection in a world of blue-tick politics? How do you know when it’s time to stop swiping? And how can you put your mental health front and centre of your dating strategy? Joining Senior Editor Roisín Dervish-O’Kane to discuss all this and more are Dr Sophie Mort, a former NHS Clinical Psychologist who now has her own private practice, and Louise Troen, a brand consultant and former International Vice President of Marketing at the dating app Bumble.  Join Women’s Health on Instagram: @womenshealthuk Join Roisín Dervish-O’Kane on Instagram: @roisin.dervishokane Join Dr Sophie Mort on Instagram: @_drsoph Join Louise Troen on Instagram: @louisetroen Have a goal in mind that you want us to put to the experts? Find us on Instagram @womenshealthuk and drop a voice note into our inbox, telling us your name and your goal, and it could be the subject of a future episode.  Topics:  The evolutionary psychology of dating  The gamification of dating apps and the impact on the brain  Boundary-setting - and holding yourself to account Dating with intention Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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responsibly. Now streaming on Paramount Plus. It's the epic return of Mayor of Kingstown. Warden? You know who I am? Starring Academy Award nominee Jeremy Runner. I swear in these walls. Emmy Award winner Eidie Falco. You're an ex-con who ran this place for years.

And now, now you can't do that. And Bafto Award winner Lenny James. You're about to have a plague of outsiders descend on your town? Let me tell you this. It's got to be consequences. Mayor of Kingstown. New season now streaming on Paramount Plus. Hello, welcome to Going for Goal, the new women's health podcast.

I'm your host, Senior Editor Roshin Dervishokane. Thousands more of you are discovering the show each week, and we couldn't be happier that you're with us. If you're new to Going for Goal, welcome. Each week, I'll be joined by members of our esteemed gang of health experts and cultural insiders, and together we'll explain how you can hit a health, wellness or life goal. It's Valentine's Week, should you have missed the love hearts everywhere you look. So we're looking at a goal that's an amalgamation of a few emails and DMs.

It's the goal of learning how to date in a way that works for your health and happiness, not against it. Basically, to build a healthy dating life. Having a goal to do with relationships is tricky. And when those relationships are with people whom you're dating, sleeping with and possibly auditioning for the plum role of your partner, the trickiness increases exponentially. But sometimes what we most want does involve other people. Joining me to talk looking for love whilst preserving your sanity are two women who, from quite different professional vantage points, have gained up close and personal insight into the minds and behaviours of the dating lives of women like you. Dr Sophie Mort, a former NHS clinical psychologist who now has her own private practice, and Louise Troen, a brand consultant and former international vice president of marketing at Dating at Bumble.

Welcome both of you. Hi. Very quick one to each for you to start. What have your professional perspectives taught you about why women, professionals in their 20s and 30s particularly, find dating so emotionally wearing? Sophie, let's start with you. I'm glad that you went with professional rather than personal. It's the first thing. I was like, well, this is going to be a lot to start with.

Okay, professional opinion on this. I think that dating makes you feel incredibly vulnerable. It's a space in which you have to expose parts of yourself that, perhaps you don't want to, aren't ready to. And I think that's particularly true in this modern world where dating isn't just meeting someone through a friend of a friend. It's a world in which you put pictures of yourself on apps and you swipe and people choose based on your appearance whether they want to go on dates with you.

I think right now dating is really enjoyable. I want to start with the positives, enjoyable, potentially fun, but also rife. with disappointment, disillusionment, and a sense that maybe people can be thrown away quite quickly, which obviously isn't good for any of our self-esteem. And I think a lot of people, based on that, are focusing more and more on their appearance, and wondering whether they're enough, whether they look enough, whether their social skills are enough, whether their personality is enough.

That is actually a personal and a professional opinion on why dating can be so tough at any age, not just in your 20s and 30s. Louise, a lot about you? Yeah, I think to your point, a lot of it is down to the expectations that both society and our friends and ourselves put on each other. I think if I'd think about when I was younger and I started dating, and I think it's the same for all of us. And I speak on both a profession and a personal level. So much of your success as a woman or as an individual is based on the acquisition of certain things in your life. Have you got a boyfriend? Did you find a good job?

Have you got a good group of friends? And suddenly when you fall short of those categories, to your point, you feel like you're lacking and you're not fulfilled in a certain way. And actually that conditioning of what success is is completely archaic and unrealistic. And it's based on a perfection model that is wholly unreachable. So we're all, if we follow that model just destined to fail and feel unfulfilled and unsuccessful. And so what we really found working at Bumble when I worked there and also in my personal dating life is that just, as it was stitched up through cinematography and literature and history that we should fill these certain models of being a woman or being a business woman or in a relationship, we have to start

to unstitch that and re-piece together what it means to be successful and that means also looking at our mental success first and foremost. Absolutely. So putting self-care at the front of whatever you're going through. So be that you're aiming for a dating goal or it's something to do with fitness or it's something to do with professional life. Always thinking about where you are with it first. Yeah. Okay. And then so we've talked about, so if you talked about the kind of modern realities of dating

and how it can make people feel a bit indispensable, not indispensable. Oh, I wish indispensable. Oh, I wish indispensable. Oh, I wish indispensable. Yeah. But dating has always been hard, right? I think as Louise said, it involves vulnerability. What are the more kind of ancient long-demeanor?

standing mechanisms at play here. Okay, I love that you're talking about this because, yes, dating has always been hard because of the way that we've evolved as a species. Okay, so if you think about the fact that thousands of years ago, maybe millennia ago, early humans to survive needed to be in communities, they needed to be in tribes. If you were inside of a community, you had access to resources, access to safety, and access to sex, right? So, the in-group had it all.

If you did something that led you to be outside of the group, it meant almost certain death. So your brain, whenever, well, your brain is negatively skewed, right? It's kept you safe by continuously scanning the environment for anything that could go wrong, including looking for any kind of width of rejection, any sign of rejection. And when it finds anything that looks like that, it activates its only threat response that it has this fight or flight response and causes a physical change that's anything from uncomfortable to extradement. extremely painful in order for you to recognize something is happening so that you will change your behavior. So early human would have then hopefully gone and made amends. Whatever had gone wrong,

they would try and fix it so they could stay within the group. Thousands of years ago, amazing. Nowadays, we're looking, we're seeing rejection absolutely everywhere. You know, not talking about dating, but if you think about when you scroll on Instagram, you could see a party where you don't even know the people in the picture. And suddenly you're like, why wasn't I invited to that party? You kind of cast yourself in the out group. Yes, because you're not in that picture that looks really fun. Even though you don't know those humans.

So that's when you're not emotionally invested. So now imagine what it's like in the dating world. The faintest hint that you're going to be rejected and you experience this strong physical response. And there's actually this piece of research that I think is fascinating. It's kind of cruel. they got participants and gave them fake dating profiles and asked them to go, they knew they were fake, asked them to go through each of the dating profiles and say, hmm, I would date that person, like,

ooh, I'd like them as a potential suitor. They put them in a scanner to see what happened in their brains and then told them that the people that they fancied didn't fancy them back. And what they saw was the brain started releasing its natural painkillers. This is fascinating because it means that your brain processes rejection, in a very similar way as it does to processing physical pain. Interesting. Yeah, so actually, dating's always been fraught with actual physical pain, not just emotional pain.

But now thinking about modern world, every time you pick up the phone, there's a potential right for rejection or for someone saying, yes, I like you, it's a match. So something that helped us thousands of years ago is actually really now keeping us stuck in a cycle of anxiety. Yeah. And yeah, emotional danger. Yay.

Yay. Thanks, Brain. I feel like a lot of that emotional anxiety from my experience is also built around the gamification of these apps. And actually, if you think about any other game that you play in your life, it's filled with adrenaline and angst and excitement. And when you win, you feel great. And when you lose, it also evokes an emotional reaction. And what technology has done is, you know, it's enabled us to have access. to so many new people, which is brilliant for so many ways.

I think there's a lot of negative talk around the tech space and, you know, brands like Instagram, but actually they also democratize access to information and knowledge and people and friends and communities, especially in minority communities. I know lots of people that have found, you know, contacts with people that typically they didn't have access to. So I think that's the benefit of it. But the gamification of match and swipe and contact. we have to find a way to find a balance between that and giving people access to people,

but also managing to your point the potential of rejection through that gamification. And you see a lot of new apps, whether it's connectivity apps or dating apps, really trying to navigate that space of how can we keep the connections meaningful whilst also ensuring that the immediacy of what we were looking for is still at the forefront. Because it's tricky, isn't it? I guess there's always going to be some level of rejection, because even on a dating app in the same way that you'd be in a bar, you are still kind of judging someone on whether you think they're fit or not.

Yes. So it's probably important. Like it's kind of how do you, as you say, to your point, how do you remove that? I think it's a language thing from my point of view. Maybe rejection is such a savage, heavy word that if someone doesn't match with me, I'm like, I'm rejected or perhaps they were just swiping too quickly. Yeah. Because we're great.

And they probably should have wiped in the right direction. But it's the same way as if, you know, we would go into a bar tonight. Do you expect every man to stop drinking their drink and look at us? Yes, absolutely. No, I'm joking. I mean, in an idea world, yes, but they might be distracted in like football chat. But I think it's just interesting when you take it into the real life world and actually your expectations on an app are so much higher to be liked.

And we really need to start dismantling that because it is impossible for you to feel loved in that way online. And it just, the tech doesn't serve that type of feeling. It's interesting, isn't it? And I wonder if it's got anything to do with the way that we kind of make ourselves into brands online. And we almost kind of, we put up an avatar. And, of course, on any platform, whether it's dating or whatever, and we put so much into that, into that performance of who we are. So that maybe when someone doesn't go, oh, my God, that's everything I want more.

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Conditions and exclusions apply. We're like, but that's the best. Shit. If you don't want that, then, oh my goodness. There's nothing behind the shell. Yeah. Okay, I feel like, as you said, there is so much negative talk around. this and there doesn't need to be because, well, there doesn't need to be some negative talk,

but dating doesn't have to be negative. So I think firstly if you understand the gamification of apps and how a lot of it are based on slot machines, right? So you love the flashing lights, the intermittent reinforcement. You're more likely to become addicted to something and lean into it if you get the hits that you want occasionally, not all the time. So firstly, you want to understand that the apps work on you not feeling great all the time. You want to understand that that feeling of rejection that you have goes back millennia

and has nothing to do with you per se being a failure in that moment or not being able to manage your emotions. And you want to learn, I think knowledge is power as well in terms of understanding the psychology of dating. So like a simple thing, for example, is most of us date based on our childhood experiences. When someone looks at you on a dating app, yes, they're going off physical appearance, but they're also looking for something deeper than that, even though it's happening in a split seconds, something that's familiar. So if someone rejects you, for example, that's a big word, someone decides not to match with you. It's possible that it's because you don't activate a familiar circuit in their mind. You don't remind them as something of their childhood, something of a parent,

for example. And if you know that people are making their judgments not based on whether they think your brand is good enough for them, but based on during my childhood, this thing made me feel good or made me feel anxious and that's what I need, then you can actually conceptualise your experience of the dating game quite differently. I could go on, but can you see? There's lots of different things you can learn about that just help you show up in this space in a calmer, more centred way. And what about the idea of understanding where, because I think so much with dating, we put so much emphasis on the other person, where they are, what they're thinking. What about, how do we kind of bring it back to us and where we are in that moment and how does that help us to

kind of build a healthy dating life? Question to either of you. I mean, I think it comes down to recognizing and knowing that you are in control and you also have a choice. So often I hear my girlfriends and actually I've said this as well, you know, he doesn't like me for these reasons. And I turn around to them and I'm like, but you also have a choice because he's behaving in a certain way that isn't adhering by your behavioral standards and it's making you feel certain ways. So we have a choice in this situation to feel empowered and say that is not something that I would like to stand for so I'm going to walk away from it. And I think because we feel so vulnerable in relationships and because we are so desperate to be loved as individuals that if somebody says,

I'm not going to call you back and I don't want to take you Virginia, we immediately say, I am not loved or wanted. Instead of saying, I'm going to make a concerted choice right now that that sort of person isn't worthy of my time. And when you move your brain to thinking like that, I mean, you can talk of us too much more about this. I'm not a psychologist. No, I'm loving what you're saying. Carry on. I'm just like copying her language.

When you move your thought process to that space, you shift from being disempowered to being really empowered. And I think we are always going to face moments where people do not choose us in work, in relationships, in friendships. And if we can say I'm walking away from that because it doesn't serve me for whatever reasons. And it is about that person and what they're going through as opposed to personal to me. To your point, you end up in a much more, yes, safe environment with yourself. And I've had to do that numerous times. And it's a really empowering feeling to know where your boundaries are and why you set them and why you won't settle for less. Yeah.

And on the subject of boundaries, then what are some of the most important? It's so important in dating. Bloody little boundary. Yeah. You're a psychologist. Of course you do. What are some of the most important ones? I feel like I need to book in a session with you by the way.

I know. Well, we can use it as this. Group therapy. Perfect. But what are some of the most important boundaries to set when it comes to dating? And how do people go about doing it? It's a bit of a buzzword, isn't it? What are they?

Do you know what a boundary is? Why do you explain? Okay. Just because I think lots of people hear it, they're like, oh, good loads, I lead boundaries, but I don't know what they are. Yeah. Okay, so boundary is the line where you end and someone else begin. and they're kind of these rules, I suppose, or guides that you decide on that allow other people to know how you want to be treated.

And we need them in all aspects of our lives. I think lots of people think they're dirty words because one of the first boundaries that normally comes to mind is the word no. And I think a lot of us, I'm going to dare say, I think particularly women, feel like if we tell someone that we care about, know that we're doing something offensive or hurtful. So I think a lot of us don't realize how important it is that we need to decide what's important to us in life and create rules around it to protect ourselves. So I'm going to go straight in with learning how to say no. Just because someone wants to date you, just because someone wants to talk to you doesn't mean that you have to go along with it. Right. So if someone asks you out and you don't want to, you're allowed to say, no, thank you.

And you don't even have to give a reason why, right? A lot of us feel like we have to explain ourselves. Another really important thing about saying no is I think we're getting into a culture of ghosting which I think is really harmful so ghosting you know you think the relationship's building up you're like oh they're texting me it's so wonderful and then they disappear totally

and it's oh my word you don't know what you've done it feels deeply personal actually it's often because the other person doesn't want to say no to you and doesn't know how to bear your pain so they can just walk away so no boundarying your time in terms of how you how long you spend on a date someone, how long you spend, like messaging them? All of the things. I mean, specifically

thinking about apps, they found that most of us spend about 90 plus minutes per day on dating apps. That's over 20 hours a week. So, boundarying the time you spend searching, boundarying the time that you're going to offer to people in terms of texting before meeting, making sure that dates, for example, aren't too long but aren't too short. So you've got a good sense of each other, but maybe leave each other wanting more. But I think in terms of boundaries, what a lot of us do, and I think this speaks to your point is we go on these dates feeling like we have to prove ourselves

to the other person. We kind of lose sight of what's important to us and what we want. So what I would do initially, and you don't have to stick to this, but is think, okay, what is important to me in a relationship? What do I want?

What do I value? Okay, I want someone who has similar interests to me or I want someone who has different interests to me. And you kind of rank them in order of importance and then you think, what is an absolute no? So for me, someone who messes, with my time, right? Someone who doesn't, makes me feel like they don't value my time. If you

cancel one meeting, fine. I'm using meeting instead of dates, so I don't feel vulnerable when I say about it. The reality, I mean, if you cancel one date, maybe it'll be fine. But if you do it twice, then I'm going to probably say, um, you know what, my time's really important. After the first date, my time's really important to me. In the future, I really just need a little bit more notice with that work. Next time, they're out. That's a hard rule for me. So thinking about what's non-negotiable and practicing saying those things out loud. Yeah. And then when you feel really anxious because you've said no to someone, then tolerating your own distress around that. And I realize I'm whittling on, but final thing is turn your notifications off. That is a major

hard boundary for me, right? Yeah, yeah. I have all of mine off. All of them. Me too. Not one thing on. No. Does that help in the way then in terms of this, in terms of your dating life, being healthy then, that when you engage, it's like you choose. Yes. You choose. It's like the equivalent of like you choose to step into what's being called like a singles

bar. Yeah. You choose to, like you're going looking for it rather than it being you've woken up and someone's not texted you or someone else. Or not even, you know, if you're so your phone's on the table right now, for example, if you had your notifications turned off, part of your brain is constantly thinking, someone might merge with me. someone might message me or why has there been such a long gap?

You're constantly emotionally responding at the unconscious level to what your phone's doing. If your notifications are turned off, you've got a bit of a break. I think you're so right about time and I don't think we put enough pressure on it. And I think it's really powerful to remember how precious it is. And our mental health is all based on how we structure our time. I actually have my phone on aeroplane when I'm in any meeting and it's out here so I can look at my notes. but that is a way of me saying I'm respecting this time. And if there is an emergency, it can wait until the end of the meeting.

And typically, you know, to your point about swiping and investing time in dating, I would encourage people to say, okay, we know statistically that the majority of people are using dating apps between 5 and 8 p.m. on a Sunday evening. Fun fact, did not know. Fun fact for the fans out there. Coming through with the dating. I'll say it again for the people in the map. but we know that there are more people on there. So we know the algorithm is being fed more,

which means that you're more likely to be seen if you're more active, which means you're more likely to get more matches. So number one, we would encourage people to use that time and say, okay, once a week, why would I not encourage my chances of finding more people and focus on it at a time that is probably going to be more likely for me to match with someone? And then throughout the week, spend your time with your friends on yourself,

exercising, building out the value, that then when you go on the date on Saturday lunchtime, or the following Monday, you've actually felt empowered by discipline. And I think discipline is really important because it enables you to feel like you have some control. And whenever we lose control, that's when we feel anxious. That's when we start to doubt ourselves. And we lack that sort of understanding of why. And so structuring, to your point, your time really carefully, enables us to really focus on that.

But I agree with you that this ghosting phenomenon is really dangerous. And as much as it is a buzzword and, you know, there are so many different terms. that we're coming up with. Now, Submarining, have you heard of that? No, breadcrumbing. Bread crumbing. Tell me about submarining. Submarining is when they're like,

you're really fit, and I fancy you and you go on a date, and then they disappear, and you think they've ghosted you, and then they put their heads up. Oh, this is so, okay, so like breadcrumbing, where they just like deliver you the little crumb just as you're disappearing. Breadcrumbing is a little bit more, is a little longer. Yeah.

It's like almost love bombing. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, at this point, there are so many terms that it's like, did he breadcrumb me, then submarine me, or maybe he ghosted me at the same time. Also, is it better to be submarine because at least they thought I was hot in the first place. Unless I've understood it wrong.

It's funny, isn't it, with ghosting. I think, I know Louise, we've spoken about this briefly before. It's tricky. What we let really affect us. And because I've had conversations with friends as well. And it's like, oh, I've been ghosted by this guy. But then when you dig down into it, they hadn't actually met. So they'd just been messaging.

And it's hard because I'm like, well, were you really ghosted? because he hasn't met you. At this point, you're just six of your best photos and a cute little bio. But it's really hard. Like, how do we, are there rules? Do we have to slightly toughen up when we haven't engaged with someone personally?

What do you guys think? I think that the difficult word here is let, okay? So the idea that we're letting ourselves get, like, feel a certain way. I think what's easier is to recognize that certain emotional responses we have happen, beyond our control. Where we have choice is what we do with those emotions, right? So, for example, your friend may never have met this person, but it might be incredibly painful for them that that person's disappeared. That's not them letting themselves get into that scenario. That's just what

your brain does to you when your attachment system is activated, right? That part of you that worries about connection. So I think the way that we toughen up in inverted comments is firstly by softening up, so as in compassion. So I recognize that right now I'm hurting. And that's probably something to do with evolution. It's probably something to do with my childhood. It's probably something to do with how I feel right now. So we honor that part of ourselves. We ask ourselves, okay, what do I need right now to self-soothe? And then we choose how we wish to proceed. So it's about both making space for the emotion and deciding how to move forward. So a little bit like, you know, mindfulness is the idea that you create a gap between your knee jerk response and what

you actually do. And that's kind of what I'm talking about here. We toughen up by deciding to act in a way that soothes ourselves and move forward. And part of that might be having a little word with yourself or with your friends where you go, oh yeah, hang on, I didn't even meet that person. And in reality, I'm not even invested in them at all. And probably if I did X and Y and Z and you joke with your friends and you get this lovely endorphin kick because you're with your pals. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of different to toughening up. That's such a good point. And much kinder and more empathetic take than mine so thank you for you oh no don't worry I used to be ruthless with myself as well like cold and hard oh sorry I've done enough mate get a grip what's wrong with you I actually think

there's somewhere in the middle so I agree that you have to meet certain experiences with such compassion and that actually is a much more powerful way for yourself to heal but I also think there's a point to be argued around the expectations of these apps and it's not necessarily about I don't know if toughen is the right word but I think it's more be really realistic. I agree with that. When we're entering into the world of online dating in particular, that we have realistic expectations that these terms that have been coined like ghosting are there because they are

trendy and their buzzwords and their clickbait. And so we have to be careful not to fall into the traps of saying we had a, you know, five minute back and forth and then he ghosted me. I've talked to men, women at bars for five minutes and then they've gone, you know, then they've gotten a cab and left and never say goodbye to them. So I think just having a little bit of a reality check with yourself sometimes. and not indulging too much in the kind of victimization of he didn't respond. And also allowing ourselves to go through it, right?

So whether we use the word rejection or ghosting, actually what you realize is a lot of us are so afraid of it happening that we kind of create a lot more anxiety in ourselves around it to. What would happen if I was ghosted? What would happen if I'm rejected? Well, the reality is you'd move through it. Yeah. So actually putting yourself out there and experiencing anything from what feels like a micro-rejection

to something much bigger, the more and more you do it, actually the more you can tolerate it, as long as you have the right structures around yourself. To your point about kind of nurturing yourself during the week, that will make us so much more, that nurtures often gives us the resource then to be a little bit more hardy when we do face the inevitable rejection or ghosting

or when someone not choosing you. When someone doesn't choose you. It also feels really good. to stand up for your values. Yes. Like being able to... Way too excited. I love the word value.

Honestly, there is nothing that has empowered me more than to stand up for things that I think have gone wrong, whether it's in a situation that I don't know the people or a work situation that I was in. Being able to go, that is not what I stand for. And I'm going to question that and I'm going to stand by it. There's something really powerful and enlightening about doing that. And I think it's really important to kind of... point your negotiables and non-negotiables, I have written down what I want from a relationship and what I need from a relationship and the things that I need are non-negotiable.

Perfect. Yes. And the things that I want, I will compromise on through a conversation with the person that I'm with. And I think, you know, more than three things, it kind of gets a little bit out of control. Also, it's unrealistic. Totally. But then you can be really disciplined and say, okay, you are disrespectful of my time. That's one of my things I really need. Or you haven't introduced me to any of your friends and it's been a year and that kind of community collective is something that's really empowering to me and I really need it. Whereas if you want them to be more fun on a night out but you can probably handle if they're not. You know, it's much easier to go, okay, now I can recognize the things that make me feel good and step away or step into them. That's great

advice. So basically we're thinking spend as much so be disciplined. Yeah. With how you're spending your time and how you're looking for love. Yeah. With your weak. And then nurture yourself, do the things that make you feel good. Um, um, And then what's your point, Louise? Identify the three things that you want. Identify the things that you want and that you need. I love that. And what about, is there a good or a bad time to date?

Like how do we work out if we're, because sometimes, you know, if you're not feeling great, like maybe it isn't the best time to put yourself worth on the line. Because as we've discussed it, you can take that really badly. Yeah, is there a good or bad time? Louise, what do you think? I'm a bit of a hopeless, romantic at heart. So I'm a little bit like everything. is meant for you will come to you at the right time. So on the kind of left side, I'm like,

keep doing what you're doing and try not to over-program what you're looking for, because often then it doesn't happen naturally and organically and won't serve you in the best way. But then on the other side, you know, when I joined Bumble, I made a decision that I wanted to be, I just came out of a relationship, a long relationship, and I decided that I really wanted to commit to my job and being good at my job and building the business was something that was really important to me. And so I was single for the entire time, you know, with a few deliances here and there. For the entire time I was there. And that was a really conscious decision because I know myself well enough to know that the energy that I needed to put into it

couldn't have been stretched across that period of time. And then I left. And now I'm dating someone, which is so ironic because it was two days after I left. Loll. But yeah, so I think there's kind of two parts. The first is like the right person will find you even if you're at your weakest. And I know lots of people that have fallen in love when they have felt so vulnerable. And that person has really helped them through that vulnerable position.

A friend of mine was very depressed and she met this amazing guy at a course that she did and now they're getting married. And I think you shouldn't just restrict yourself or block yourself off from love because you're feeling mentally challenged, but also be mindful not to put yourself in situations, i.e. on a dating app, if you know that that feeling of rejection is going to cause more pain for you. Yeah. So it sort of depends where you are. I love this because something that really makes me quite mad is this notion of if you can't love yourself, who's going to love you? I totally agree. Oh my word, whenever I read it, I just, I don't even have words for the feeling. Have a go.

Okay. I mean, the reality is humans are meant to exist in partnership. I don't mean just one-on-one. I mean in community, right? And the reality is that, yes, a lot of damage is done in relationship, but also that's where we find healing. So point to me someone, I'm hoping maybe you will say yourselves, but point to me someone who loves themselves.

There's very few people now, I believe, who could confidently say that. So what? We're meant to wait and deny ourselves the very thing that might make us feel like we can heal? no way. Like I could spend my days just going through Instagram posts just, I don't troll, but you know,

maybe just trolling these people who say these things. Because it's holding yourself to a standard of emotional perfection until you allow yourself to, yeah, bond with someone else. Yeah, so you're already feeling insecure and then you read something that says,

oh, well, until you're not insecure, don't go looking for love. And you're like, oh, that's another failure of mine. And there's a real trend right now of people posting on Instagram, you know, I'm choosing to be single because I'm working through this pain. Instead of being like, I'm really distracted and focused on this,

if the right person came along when I was working at Bumble, of course I would have entertained it, but it just didn't happen. And I think you're so right that actually we need to lean into a space of being like, the more vulnerable I am, the more open I am, the more I'm going to grow and actually the more lovable you probably will be. 100%. And I think there is such thing as a really empowered choice as in I choose this time to be single, whether it's because I'm healing, whether it's because I'm working.

but that's the choice of the individual rather than don't go there because you're not ready yeah I think that's a really good point so yeah and build yourself up to allow yourself to be vulnerable because that's where it's where the good stuff happens right

there's huge strength in it being able to sit and say I'm sitting in my vulnerability and these are the things that I'm not doing so well at but these are the things that I'm also doing really really good at because by the way the times that we feel terrible there is a suite of things that we're also doing brilliantly.

And we're so distracted by the pain that we forget that there's some of greatness next to us, whether it is in our professional life or our mental health is good, but our relationships are bad. There's always a ying to the yang. And I think we need to recognise that more instead of indulging too much in the negative space. We're nearly at the end now, but if there's any, like it's Valentine's Week when this is going out, it can be quite a tricky time if you're not feeling great. if there's one piece of advice

for anyone that's feeling a bit disheartened what would it be? Connect to the other people you love, your friends. I really hate Valentine's Day so it's a day when I go out with my mates and we go to Weather Spoons. Oh, nice. Top romance. Nice, I like it. I like spoons because I'll come and join you.

Mainly stokey. Oh, nice. Yeah, I was going to say exactly the same. Spend time with the people that make you feel good. Thank you very much everyone for listening. Whatever you're doing on Valentine's Day, we hope you have a wonderful time. So thank you so much to my guests, Sophie and Louise. It's been a lot of fun.

It really has. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, and thanks for listening. If you have enjoyed it, please rate or leave a review on Apple Podcasts because that really helps other people find us. And I'll be back next week. Have a good one. Bye.

Bye.