Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - How To Build A Healthy Social Life

Episode Date: January 16, 2020

The bumper-to-bumper busyness of December feels like a distant memory now we’re all doubling down for the annual January hibernation. But while your body and bank balance will thank you for some quiet time, positive social interactions are vital for your emotional wellbeing. So how can you build a social life that aligns with your health goals? How do you make plans you can’t wait to keep? And how can you make the most of your precious free time? In this episode, Senior Editor Roisín Dervish-O’Kane discusses all this and more, with Dr Jessamy Hibberd, Clinical Psychologist and author of The Imposter Cure (drjessamy.com) and Toni Jones, journalist and founder of Shelf Help, a personal development collective and book club (shelfhelp.club).  Join Women’s Health on Instagram: @womenshealthuk Join Roisín Dervish-O’Kane on Instagram: @roisin.dervishokane Join Dr Jessamy Hibberd on Instagram: @drjessamy Join Toni Jones on Instagram: @ms.toni.jones Have a goal in mind that you want us to put to the experts? Find us on Instagram @womenshealthuk and drop a voice note into our inbox, telling us your name and your goal, and it could be the subject of a future episode.  Topics:  What role do social connections play in supporting your mental health?  What’s a social audit and how can you do one? What are boundaries and how can you set them? What’s intentional drinking and how do you do it?  How do you walk away from a friendship that’s no longer serving you?  Links: Sober Curious by Ruby Warrington (rubywarrington.com/i-am-an-author/) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Why settle for less when you can go for the gold at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call connects Ontario 1866531-260. 19 and over, physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of Going for Goal, the women's health podcast that's here to help you get what you want in 2020. I'm your host, senior editor, Rochine DeVichokein. Today we're looking at the goal of how to strike a balance within the busyness and build a healthy social life.

It's something I imagine will be close to the hearts of many of you right now after the chaos of December's back-to-back, organised fun and January's social hibernation. Are you the type of person who says yes to invite even when you don't want to go? or someone who feels you need to always have a wine because everyone else is. Or maybe your schedule is packed so tightly with work and months in advance social plans that there's no room to actually enjoy yourself. All these topics and more will be covered in today's show. The more I think about it, the more I realise that regaining a sense of control over your free time

lies at the heart of so many common New Year pledges. You know the ones. Stop flaking on your friends, quit drinking and stop wasting money. or in many cases and there's zero judgment here, all of the above. Joining me today to discuss how you can build a healthy social life are Dr. Jessamy Hibbard, clinical psychologist and author of The Imposter Cure. Thank you for having me. And Tony Jones, journalist and founder of shelf help, a personal development collective and book club.

Very happy to be here. Thank you both so much for joining me. Dr. Jessamy, let's start with you. Why is learning to develop a healthy social life such an essential ambition when it comes to building a life you actually enjoy. I think it's incredibly important because like you say, when you're so busy, it makes it hard to enjoy it,

but also because our friendships and our relationships are just so important to our mental health and to our sense of well-being. They're really key to health and happiness. And if you look back at it in evolutionary terms, then to be part of the group meant you survived. If you were cut off from the group, then it probably meant you die.

So we're rewarded by positive social interactions and we feel bad when there's negative social interactions. And I think that sense of belonging is still key to us now. Yeah. And it's still key to us health and happiness. And it's such a big part of purpose and meaning for us. So making time for it is really making time for one of the most important things you could make time for. Very well said.

And is there something in the way that it's framed as well? Like thinking about building a healthy social life. Like to me that feels so much more energizing than telling myself off for being flaky or drinking too much or something. Yeah, I completely agree. It's like having a carrot rather than a stick, you know. And all the research shows that whether it's New Year's resolutions or just generally making a change, if you're really restrictive or really punitive, then you're far less likely to be successful.

And when you think about something like your social life, it's meant to be fun. You know, it's meant to be something that you look forward to and that really is an addition to your life. And so seeing all the gains that you can get is going to make you far more likely to get your social. life sorted and your busyness under control. Yeah. And speaking of busyness, overcommitting comes naturally to so many of us. And I often think that people have the best of intentions when they say yes to everything. But Jessamy, why is this a habit that you think needs to be addressed from a health perspective?

Well, first, actually, when I first spoke to people about it and was kind of researching this, I think the biggest relief was how common it is. And seeing that you're definitely not alone, I'm certainly guilty. of being really excited about planning things and then it comes to it and the week that you've got those things in place you end up feeling anxious I find myself thinking of all different excuses

of how I can get out of it and when it's loads of stuff I really feel a sense of dread and so carrying that with you during your week is the first reason why it's so important to kind of take charge of it yeah absolutely and I don't know if you came across

there's some research that came out last year from Rutgers Business School in New Jersey in the US and researchers were actually able to quantify just how much over-planning our social lives can suck the fun out of them. And it was to such an extent that we'll no longer reap the positive benefits associated with spending time with our friends, such as strengthened bonds and the release of feel-good hormones. I found that so interesting that maybe is it that in trying to be such good and present friends,

we might actually run the risk of weakening those relationships. Yeah, it's so interesting. And when it's, you know, a hundred things on your to-do list and this is one of them, often people find it's much easier to cut out the pleasurable things and the things that they'll enjoy. And yet they stick with the work staff or stick with the kind of chore list and get all of those things done. And yet doing these things is what makes all the rest of it worth it. And working hard is part of the reason that you, you know, do all of those things so that you can enjoy your time outside of work. Exactly. Exactly. It's a great point.

Tony, I want to come to you now. You wrote such a moving piece for a women's health's October issue, which ties in, I think, really neatly with this topic. Would you be able to tell me how, for you, taking control of your social life was such a fundamental turning point in your life? Well, as Jessamy says, it's supposed to be fun, right? It's supposed to be something that nourishes you. There's lots of things in life we have to do,

and the social life should be somewhere that you kind of spend time with people that build you up, have good experiences. And I think for me, and I know for lots of people, my social life was becoming, it was out of control, which is a question that you asked me to think about. It was out of control, but I chose it to be like that at the time because it really served me. And I think if we know anything about habits, they serve us at some point. And then we kind of quite often carry them on when they're not serving us anymore. But I think it's really, we seldom take the time to kind of sit down and look at why we do what we do.

Like I was definitely seeking out people and places and situations that kind of enabled me on this self-destruct mode. And it kind of got to a point where, yeah, I think I was letting down people that were really close to me. I was kind of not really doing my best at work. I mean, when I look back now, I think I could probably be like president or something like that. If I didn't have stopped drinking when I was 25, the amount of time and kind of energy and things I've wasted. But I've learned so much. And it all happened for a reason. But, yeah, really, I think I got to a point where I wanted to start making changes in my life because it just wasn't fun anymore.

And so all that fun wasn't actually fun. So it wasn't serving me. So I think I made changes in me, which kind of changed my social life first. Yeah. And then as a result, my drinking changed even more. And then my social life changed, again, even more. But why I'm really happy to be here today is because I want to kind of talk about the fact that you can ditch the drink and the parties and not lose all your friends. Absolutely.

And you can also value yourself and your time and not lose your friends and not lose your social life. Totally. And just to be clear for listeners. So Tony, am I still right in thinking you would self-describe as sober-ish? Sober-ish, yeah. Some people call it mindful drinking. Which I kind of like that term. I think we should be mindful in everything.

But I call it now, for me, it's intentional drinking. Because I feel like if you're drinking, you want to feel different, right? That's what alcohol does. It makes you feel different. And I used to want to feel different or feel nothing all the time. And now I don't really want to feel different that often. Like if I'm going to a festival, if I'm going to a gig, something, or like a big party. And I want to feel like, I think I said in the piece.

like a bit loose and silly, then I'll intentionally have a drink and know that it's going to make me feel like that. And know that the next day, I might not feel that great, but it's okay because I planned around it. Yes. Whereas before, I would be kind of just go out and it's Wednesday night, so why not go to the pub, you know? So that's a habit that really changed for me. Yeah. And did tweaking your social, well, by the sounds like tweaking your drinking and then thus tweaking your social life, did that have ripple effects in other aspects of your life? Yeah.

So your professional world or elsewhere. It's changed everything. Like it really has changed everything. I mean, I did a 100-day reset. So this was, because I've done before, like the sober October and the dry January. And I'm really good at Willpower and I need to do something. But I used to then have a party on the 1st of February and undo all of the goodness, which I know that so people listening to this now thinking about January and it's kind of, you know, that whole deprivation. So what the 100 days taught me was it just became my new normal to not drink. So you can do anything for 30 days, right? or a month. Yeah. But I think doing something for 100 days meant that I went out to quite a few Friday night drinks and didn't drink. You know, I had, suddenly I found that I had whole weekends back

and quite a few of them. And so I could do it and I enjoyed it. And then with all this extra time in my life, just, I just want to spend time doing good stuff now, like things that make me feel good. Yeah. I think I've interviewed a lot of authors now about habits. Yeah.

And they all say, if you take something out, you have to put something back in. Yeah. So it was something that I was just really kind of aware of was that I needed to start putting some good stuff in as well as just taking out this thing that I thought was this magic, you know, fix everything. And as soon as I started planning good things a Saturday with fun people who didn't go out every Friday night, then I started realizing that's how I want to be spending my time. So I think it's a real, it is a real ripple

effect. Yeah. And there's no, you don't just wake up tomorrow as a different person. Yeah. And I'm not really a different person. I just kind of have, there's all these aspects of my personalities and that personality. And I think before I didn't really appreciate. appreciate the kind of more wholesome side so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe. And if you could almost, if you could almost crystallise what, in a couple of sentences, what readjusting your social life and reorienting it towards your wants and needs now,

what that's brought you, what you've gained through removing alcohol from like an everyday part of your lifestyle, what would it be? Well, better sleep, more money, better skin. Solved. Yeah, exactly. I don't think there's anything. I mean, I think I know that going out for a drink can be really fun. Yeah. I've started this initiative called Mindful Mixers with all my friends,

who was a booze PR when I used to write about booze. And we met on a trip to celebrating vodka. And then we both kind of did this, kind of went on this soberish journey at the same time. But we both really love going out and we both love good drinks and stylish places. So what we realized was missing is events for people that still want to go to a nice bar and have a nice drink and hang out with cool people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want to hang out necessarily with all non-drinkers.

Yeah. Like if you don't want to go to necessarily a vegetarian restaurant just because you want to eat veggie, right? So I think it's brought me just so many benefits. But ultimately it's obviously I read a lot of self-help. I've been doing a lot of work on myself, but just not waking up with that kind of the anxiety and kind of being aware that if I didn't,

if I spoke to somebody last night in a bad way, it's because I wanted to. I can't blame anything else. Yeah, you can stand by everything that you. Yeah. And I spoke to so Ruby Warrington wrote a book called Sober Curious. And I love the part when she says, you realize when you're sober and if the party's rubbish, you just go home. Like whereas when you're drinking, you drink through it. Yeah, this is great. Yeah. And I kind of have really like zero patients now for kind of really average experiences or people or anything, which is, might sound a bit harsh. But from my point of view, I think it's valuing yourself and your time and all of that. And with your relationships, it's having really good relationships and spend. in your time with people you care about. Absolutely. It really enhances all those things.

So quality over quantity, right? Yeah, absolutely. So now let's look at how listeners can regain some control and create a healthy social life that works for them. Dr. Jessamy, big question. Where do we start? I suppose a good place to start is really thinking about what those gains are for you. So in terms of the research or the research shows that social isolation is so negative for you

in terms of it's as bad as smoking. It means you're less likely to live as long and it makes you more likely to experience depression. And on the positive side, good relationships and good time socialising enhances your mental health. It's protective against depression. It's protective against stress. It gives you a great support of love, fun, advice.

You know, the list is just so long and it's really thinking about what you love about your friendships and your relationships and socialising and making sure you choose the right thing for you, Because some people might love those kind of superficial chats where you meet loads of people. Well, for other people, that is like the sign of a really bad evening. And it's just choosing what's most important to you and what you want to gain from it. So you're really clear about that before you start.

And from a starting point then, do you do this kind of social audit in the way that you look at what you've got and work backwards from there? Or do you start off by thinking what you want your social life ideally to look like? I think an audit is a really good place to start. Okay. And in the impostercure, I talk about reclaiming your life. And the audit that I do in that is actually looking at everything you're doing, how much time it takes, how much energy it takes, how you feel afterwards, and looking at how many hours there are in the day,

because most people find the things that they're trying to fit in, there's not even enough hours in the day. And I think the second part of it is valuing your time. You know, the one thing you can't buy is your time. And Oliver Burtman does this brilliant TED talk, which is called the fight against time and he says, you know, your capacity is finite whereas the number of things you can do is infinite

so choose wisely. And I love that because it really makes you stop and think, okay, well, I've got this amount of time, what is most important? And I think as part of that audit is also seeing what gets in the way of you saying no or more saying yes too many times. So things like people pleasing

and being really worried that you'll let someone down and you're thinking about how they're feeling, but you're not thinking about the fact your week has jam-packed already and that probably you're going to let them down worse because you're probably text them that day. You know, technology means that you can text people really easily. It's much harder to phone someone up and say, I'm not going to come tonight.

I think, like you say, the busyness itself. So if you're saying yes to something, wait until you've looked at your week before you actually say yes and thinking about will you want to do it when you're in that situation, when you've already potentially had a really busy time, is it worth it? and is it going to kind of pick you up and really kind of going through all of your reasons so that you're more aware of them and you're not just automatically saying yes.

Yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you. So when, so from a practical level, should people do this on like a Sunday night or where, when's a good place or how's a good way to kind of start this audit? I think it's just finding a good time when you've got the time to go through it. Because actually if you want to audit it properly, it's going to be quite. quite thorough and it's going to take you a bit of time and then that's when you're kind of really proving to yourself that it's not working and I think it's also you know if you want to be

super thorough when you're going out really paying attention to how you feel afterwards and so you know if I think of myself often I think oh I don't know if I want to go and then I go and I'm so happy that I did because I am quite selective about what I say yes to but if you're constantly doing things and feeling bad afterwards or it doesn't feel like it was worth it or like Tony says you lose a whole weekend as a result so it's not just that evening but even more of your time then again it's thinking okay well these are things that I don't want to incorporate so much and when you've got a really clear idea in your head of what you want to do and you don't want to do and particularly if you've written it down it's much easier to stand by it because it's so easy just to say okay I'll be there you know

it comes out of your mouth quicker than you mean it to whereas when you've thought about it so kind of consciously and I love your word Tony of like this kind of mindful approach to things then you're choosing it rather than going along with it. Yeah. I was going to say, Tony, do you have anything else to add? Yeah, just on that point, I think totally, it's about choosing something. And for me, it's really getting intentional. It's not intentional drinking necessarily, but intentional.

What do you want your social life to look like? How do you want to spend your time? Like some of the books we've done, one of them is called Your Dream Life Starts Here, and one of the questions is, how do you want to be celebrating your 80th birthday? And I love that because it makes you think, A, am I going to get to 80, hopefully? But B is like, what kind of people do I want to be around? What do I want to have done in those next 40-odd years to get there? And it's kind of like then shaping your week and your life now around what kind of person you want to be.

So like you would do with work goals or other kind of or financial goals. It's like, who do you want your friends to be? How do you want to spend your time? So, you know, getting yourself, getting quiet, asking yourself those questions. because you are the only person that can direct that because people will always be pulling at you for different things and you have to take responsibility for your own life, right? You can't be crossed that somebody messages you all the time

if you message them back. So kind of talking to, I think an audit is a brilliant idea. I think notifications off immediately from today, everybody, is just the best idea. Just not to be reacting to everyone else's schedule. You know, it's your life, it's your schedule. You have to set the boundaries. Nobody else will do that for you.

And in fact, it's the opposite. there's always going to be things pulling at you. And if you're the kind of person like me, and probably like lots of people listening, if you kind of have quite low self-esteem, then you get into the vicious circle of kind of wanting to say yes to everything because you want to be included

and then it kind of turns into you're always the person organizing or going to things. So, yeah, kind of getting intentional and realizing that when you do make a few changes, people won't always like it, but you have to know your why because it's about your life, right? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I want to go back to something you mentioned there about having boundaries. So we hear the term increasingly. But Dr. Jessamy, what actually are boundaries? What does the term mean and why are they so important? I think a boundary is thinking about how you want to be treated by other people and thinking about your behaviours around other people as well. So like Tony says, if you're constantly available and you constantly get back to people, then when you don't, then they might find it a bit annoying. But if you stick to that, that, then they get used to that new new rule. Whereas if you're always getting back to them, as Tony says, you can't really complain about it. And in terms of what we were talking about before, how do you feel with somebody when you're with them? Do you feel that they give you respect and listen to you and value you and, you know, think about you rather than just talking at you or phoning you when things are bad for them or texting you all the time, particularly things like making you feel guilty if you don't go. you know, a good friend will really understand if you don't go because they get that sometimes things get too much. So I think it's about how you want to be treated, sticking to those things, being able to say no,

and thinking about your behaviours and how people behave to you as well. That's really helpful, thank you. And Tony, as well, you mentioned that when you are making changes in your life, when you start reorienting your social life towards your wants and needs, some things, possibly some people, aren't going to feature as prominently as they once did. Did you ever struggle with putting up boundaries in your social life as you move towards this new normal? Yeah, totally.

And for a while I just kind of was going to be, I'm going to do everything the same as I used to do and just not drink. But it's like it's not fun to go to the pub and watch everyone else get drunk when you're not drinking. It's fun for a little bit. But then, so it's kind of I had to realize

that I might have to change a few things. things and then yes relationships then change as a result and I think when I talk about taking responsibility it's like I'm the one changing the energy in our friendship because I'm the one making changes but I'm making them for the right reasons for me and if I have a if I have friends which I did have and still do have that I drinking wine was what we did together you know I started shelf help because I was just fed up because a lot of my friends have children now and time is really limited and so we would get together we'd manage to get together after a thousand WhatsApp and then we'd all drink too much white wine too quickly, not listen to anybody, nobody

kind of shared anything that was actually important. And then the next day I always felt really kind of flat and kind of dissatisfied. And so I started shelf help as a kind of way to get people to come together and talk about the stuff that mattered without just the kind of, I suppose, my friendships now are a little bit different, but the good friends are still there. And I think doing different things as well. So whether it's talking about self-help, you don't need to go to that extreme, maybe. But like doing brunch instead of drinks after work or doing like i love frame because they do like the disco nights on a six and on friday night after work so i'll go to a class with a friend and then get a juice and then go

home and be home in time for netflix at like 9 30 that's my friday night now ideal ideal um okay and then i guess question to both of you so whoever wants to take it how do you work out if something within your social life needs to go what are the signs i think again it's how you feel afterwards And also, I suppose, coming back to that idea of how does somebody make you feel if you're not doing something? And even in terms of saying yes to things, what I'm thinking of is when I am saying yes to things, I'm really aware of how somebody will feel. And so I'm thinking about, oh, I should just go because it's better for them if I go. And it's really easy for me to go.

But you forget about all that goes into it and how much of an impact that can have. And so then when you are making the effort to do those things and you get there, the really simple answer is if you consistently don't feel good with that person. And again, coming back to that, how much are you talking? Sometimes you'll meet up with somebody and you know everything about their life. But if you ask them, you know, do you know what's going on for me? They probably can't answer. And I guess it's that, you know, like that word of kind of energy vampires or how you feel is a really good check-in with everything, with how much you're doing.

You know, listening to your body and mind, all the answers are there. You can just trust your instincts, I think. But when you're super busy, you haven't even got time for that. So slowing down helps that too. I think getting quiet is so important, isn't it? Because when you don't let yourself get quiet, you don't hear anything, right? So that's how you learn how you feel about things. But I love the idea of like, is somebody a radiator or a drain?

You know, how do you feel when you're with them? Yeah, how do you feel when you're with them? Or some people say tap and drain. So for me, at my school, it was always tap and drain. But for you, it's radiator. Just me, this is the decider. What was it for you? I'm afraid it's radiator.

No. You want to be cozy and warm. You wouldn't be kidding. Yeah, not damp. Yeah, I guess it makes a lot more sense. But I've got like a practical tip on the when should people go or when should you? And it's not even as kind of, it's not cutting them off as it? It's like that's it.

You're dead to me. But it's like you kind of prune friendships or and you let them wither a bit. I have a thing now when if people message me and say, I miss you, when can I see you? If they don't give me a date, I just don't get back to them because it's like it's putting it back on you, which happened to me all the time when people say, when are we seeing each other again? And then they're waiting for me to organize a dinner or me to organize something. And I'll say, when do you want to see me? And quite often that just nothing happens.

And so that's when I know, maybe I don't want to see that person. Because in that relationship, you're the person who is the architect of that friendship. You're the person that's keeping it going. So also, why should you if you're not sure? Yeah. Okay, that's really helpful. And I think alongside that is having the confidence to let go of friendships. Because so often we have a really good friend, but not all friendships are for life.

A bit like you'd split up with a partner. You know, you change, you grow, you do new things. Some people go along for all of that and they're particularly special, but not everybody does and with new life stages or moves, you know, new people come in. But like we said at the beginning, it's quality, not quantity. So it's keeping in mind what's still working. And I think it's really difficult to let go of friendships.

But in the way you described, Tony, it's much more natural. You know, it's just kind of slowly letting go of it rather than constantly doing the meetup because of the duty you feel. So if it's the activity, say, rather than the person themselves, how do you edit the time that you spend with that person to make it more beneficial to you? I think it's talking about it. And again, the other person's response to that is a really good indicator of whether it's worth changing. And so if there's someone who's really up for that and trying new things or like your friends doing the shelf help or having, you know, non-acolic evenings, then they're a keeper.

Whereas if you're suggesting different things and someone's not so into it, again, it's just letting that fade a bit more. And what if it's the person? So, you know, if you're just really not feeling that friendship anymore. Like, how do you let them go? How do you phase them out without being a dick about it? I think relationships are kind of like gardens, right? You need to tend them. If you want them to look gorgeous and be fabulous and flourish,

and it's not easy necessarily, but you can let them wither just by not giving them the same attention, I suppose. And if you're the kind of person that is listening to this and needs to take back their social life, you are probably a giver in a lot of your relationships. So you're giving the time, you're giving the organisation, you're giving the energy when you meet them. I mean, when was the last time you felt properly listened to?

For loads of us, it never happens because maybe we're the listener. So I think as soon as you, yeah, you have to, as soon as you decide to maybe change how you're going to be in a relationship, as Jessamy said, you kind of just see what the reaction is and see whether they're going to come with you on that and whether they're going to kind of reach you back out to you. Because if they're not noticing, then that's one issue, I suppose. And if they're kind of, if people are not responding to you because you're now changing the dynamic a bit, then they're probably not the right people to go on that next stage with.

That's a brilliant point. Thank you. Okay. So now we know how to take stock of your social life and prioritize what's working for you and edit out what's not. So it sounds simple in practice, but how do you keep to these new rules? I'd want your best strategies. I think it's being really clear about what they are and making them small changes. You know, it doesn't have to be a radical overhaul all at once. I think taking it gradually and making kind of small differences initially

and seeing how that feels is much more sustainable and it's more likely to fit with your life. And I think just kind of quietly reinforcing it with people and giving it a go and seeing how it goes and changing things if you need to. And again, just keeping trying to. track of how you're feeling and, you know, how you're responding to all of it as a check-in for it.

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What about the overwhelm? We mentioned turning off WhatsApp notifications. Is there anything else about managing the... Turn off all notifications. All notifications. Yeah, unless you need work, email ones, during work time. But all notifications can be turned off and you can still go into the apps. So that's about not just reacting all the time. And it's you're taking control then, which is a lot more empowering. It's like, I've got 10 minutes, I might go into Facebook rather than I know I've got all these probably not that important. likes or comments. Someone who you haven't spoken to in seven years that you went to school with. But I'm sure this is probably a whole different topic, but about the kind of these things are built to be addictive, right? So the dopamine rush we get when we kind of think there might be a new message or a new like. So we have to, again, we have to take responsibility.

We have to set the boundaries. So, yeah, I would say turn off all notifications. I completely agree. And I think even work, you don't have to have the work email updates either. And I listened to this brilliant thing recently. And she said, you know, if it was a diet, you wouldn't walk around with biscuits in your bag because you're going to eat them. And it's the same with notifications.

As soon as you see them, they're really tempting to check. Just don't have them. And then you're not tempted in the same way. And even in terms of put your phone out of sight, I have all mine off. And all my WhatsApp groups are silent. So I can choose when I look at them. And I make an effort to leave WhatsApp groups when I don't get anything from them. And it feels really awkward.

But actually, if ever I see an unbelieving, I don't think anything of it. And I remind myself of that. I think it feels awkward for the split second and then it's gone because you can't see what everyone's saying anyway and then you forget about it and you roll on right. And I think it's important as well if you're trying to make changes, writing things down is always brilliant and to looking at why you're doing that. So just another kind of audit. I don't know if you've heard of Tim Ferriss. He's kind of a motivational. He's all about that kind of life hacks and productivity.

And at this time of year actually he recommends doing it's a past year review and you look at every month of the last year. and you just look at you highlight anything that made you feel particularly good or particularly bad and that's across the whole year. And then at the end of that you have your 20% of kind of like, I suppose, radiator situations and the 20% of drains. And what you should do is start booking in time with these people. The 20% is the top 20% start booking in those activities that made your year better because you can see then in black and white. And then the things that made it worse or the people or the experiences,

then you make sure that you're not making time for those. Because he also says, the more things you say yes to, that the more kind of like average things you say yes to, when the big things come in, you've ran out of time and money and energy because you're just kind of, you're doing all the stuff out of duty or because, yeah, you kind of into two months' time, you're just like, I don't know what I'm doing. So I suppose I'll come to your baby shower.

But actually, you should save all that energy and time of stuff you really love. So one way is to plan it and get it in the diary. So then you can look at all these things you've got to look forward to. And then, yeah, the bottom 20% is good to write the to don't list. So these are things I should not do. And then just look at that every day until you don't need to look at it anymore. Just because it gives you that reminder. I love that because I guess when you were saying the whole year in review thing,

that you do that at work, you have to do that with your finances. But actually the things that bring you the most joy in life and the things that enrich you most often are your friends and the stuff that you do for fun. And actually, I guess when you think about it, they deserve as much attention and intention as, all the stuff you're obligated to do. Totally. And Jessamy said, it's like we don't make time for the stuff.

Like, why do we work so hard if we're not making money or kind of to then have good experiences of our family and life, right? What's it all about? So, but we don't prioritize those things. So we should, we should kind of get the calendar and kind of make sure, is this a friend who doesn't live near me, but I really love spending time with her. I need to go and see her three weekends this year. When am I going to do it? Because it's not going to just happen by accident. We know that, don't we? Nothing just happens. Nothing just happens, but it's so busy.

We're scheduling everything. Like, I'm good now at scheduling, scheduling in exercise time. I'm good at scheduling in kind of quiet time in the morning. I've got, like, my routine for that. But I need to get better at scheduling in, like, fun time, right? Friends time and social lifetime. But it's actually nourishing, and I know will kind of fill me up and leave me feeling better. Absolutely.

And, Jessamy, speaking of scheduling, I know something that we've spoken about before is the importance of having some empty time. and scheduling time, which is not to be productive, it's not to be useful in any way. It's just to, as you say, let yourself kind of restore and regroup. I find this incredibly difficult to do, and I imagine that lots of our listeners will do as well. How do we go about doing it? I think it's really adonaging that all time does not need to be productive. You know, we're not machines.

And when you get into that over-busy mentality, when you're not doing stuff, it feels like you're being lazy or you're slacking off in some way. And I know it sounds a bit strange But one way I think about it in the book is To think about it in terms of animal cruelty So if you had a race horse Would you race that horse every day And exercise it in between

And never let it out to rest And not give it time to prepare before races No, you're going to have an exhausted racehorse That isn't going to run anymore And it's going to come last in all the races So if it's not okay for an animal Why would it be okay for us? And even in terms of if you imagine

somebody else told you had to do all those things you'd be furious, you know, that they'd be leaving you none of this time. And so leaving some empty time gives you that time to kind of check in with your body and mind, to step back, to see where you are, to see where you want to head. I think of it as like a mini break where you come back with a fresh sense of perspective and a chance to do things in the way you want to. And those breaks actually make you far more productive. They make you far more intentional than what you're doing.

And they make you have time so that you're going. that then you can choose those better choices. And if you're constantly saying to your friends, oh, I'm exhausted, oh, how's your wait? I'm just so busy. Listen to those words. And again, as Tony says, make a choice. Do something about that.

Yeah. Fantastic. Okay. Thank you both so much for coming down to the Women's Health podcast studio and chatting today. I've learned so much. And just for everyone listening, the TED talks and the links that were mentioned earlier

will make sure those are all. in the show notes for you to find as well. Thanks to all of you for listening. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. Also, nothing makes the team at women's health happier

than seeing how our expert-backed advice is helping you be healthier, happier and get more out of life. So keep us posted by sharing your progress with us at Women's Health UK on Instagram using the hashtag going for goal. So it's bye from me. Bye from me.

and good luck from me. Until next time.