Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - How To Have A Better Sex Life – On Your Terms

Episode Date: March 5, 2020

You can read books about female desire on the Tube and buy a vibrator from Boots. But the statistics tell a different story about the sex lives of UK women. We’re having less sex than we were a decade ago, and we’re having less satisfying sex than men. This matters, since the research is clear that regular, satisfying sex has a positive impact on your mental and physical health. With that in mind, we’ve called upon the expertise of a real life sex doctor to tackle the goal of building a more satisfying sex life. This week, Senior Editor Roisín Dervish-O’Kane chats to Dr Karen Gurney, a clinical psychologist, psycho-sexologist and the author of the brand new book .   Join Women’s Health on Instagram: @womenshealthuk Join Roisín Dervish-O’Kane on Instagram: @roisin.dervishokane Join Dr Karen Gurney on Instagram: @thesexdoctor   Have a goal in mind that you want us to put to the experts? Find us on Instagram @womenshealthuk and drop a voice note into our inbox, telling us your name and your goal, and it could be the subject of a future episode.    Topics:  Why good sex is so good for your health How mindfulness can deliver better orgasms How to manage anxiety for better sex The secret to good sex in a long-term relationship PLEASE NOTE: This episode includes a mention of where to buy your tickets for Women's Health Live. Since this episode was recorded, the event has been cancelled, due to the ongoing situation with Covid-19. For full details on this decision, and information on how to get a refund, click here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm usually banging on about fitness routines and productivity hacks and meal prep as opposed to, well, banging. But this week, following on from a cluster of emails, we're homing in on the goal of creating a better, more satisfying sex life. Whatever that might look like for you. Right now, we're at an interesting time. You can read books about female desire on the tube by a non-terrifying-looking vibrator from boots and resit your sex education via Netflix. But population data tells us that people are having less sex than a decade ago, and that women are having significantly less satisfying sex than men.

So, clearly, there's a disconnect, and this matters from a health perspective. There is a ton of research backing up the positive impact that good and regular sex can have on both your physical and mental health, but more on that later. For now, I want to introduce my guest, a woman with knowledge to explain what's going on and how you can turn your sex life up a notch or three. Basically, she could give Gillian Anderson's Dr. Jean F. Milburn a run for her money. Her name's Dr. Karen Gurney, and she's a clinical psychologist and psychosexologist, practicing within the NHS and as director of the Havelot Clinic on Harley Street.

She's author of a new book, Mind a Gap, The Truth About Desire, and How to Future Proof Your Sex Life, which comes out today. Happy Publication Day, Dr. Gernie. Thank you, thank you, and thank you for having me. It's really exciting to be here. So a psychosexologist, great job title. Yes. What does it actually involve?

So basically my job involves translating sex science into meaningful therapy with individuals and couples around improving their sex life. So psychosexologist and clinical psychologist in this field basically means you take all the evidence of what works and how sex happens and you translate it into something useful for people that you work with. Interesting. And how did you get into it? I actually trained as a clinical psychologist a long time ago. So, and when you do your doctorate, it's a bit like a medical doctorate in that you rotate through specialties. And I accidentally ended up doing a specialist year-long placement in sex. And I didn't expect to do it.

And I absolutely loved it. I thought this is where it's at. Because actually, when you work with people around things that they're finding difficult as a clinical psychologist, that's wonderful. It's often the reason you do the job. but when you add in the extra levels of difficulty talking about sex, something that society puts a lot of shame and pressure around, and when you add in all the politics around sex in terms of gender politics and all the other stuff that comes with it,

for me it was like the perfect combination of a dream job and I've been specialising in it since then. And so you're a health professional, as well as a sex expert. So in your line of work, wellness and sex are explicitly linked. I touched on it in the intro, But why does good sex matter when it comes to your health? It matters so much, actually, because we often think about sex as being just a kind of frivolous activity, something that you do with your bodies. And actually, yes, you do often have sex with your body.

But more importantly, sex is really about meeting psychological and relational needs. So it's about how you're feeling about yourself. And it's about how you're relating to somebody else. If you're having sex with one person, sometimes people have sex more than one person. but it's about relational needs as well. And we know that a good sex life is a known buffer against a drop in relationship satisfaction over time. So they are very much linked. So that doesn't mean that you have to be having kind of crazy sex all the time to have a good relationship.

But it does mean that if you're dissatisfied sexually, it can over time start to reduce your relationship satisfaction. And of course people in our society in this day and age often privileged kind of long-term monogamy. That's often the model that people go for. And so neglecting to think about sexual satisfaction is really creating a vulnerability in your relationship. Interesting. And what about some of the, even if someone's not with a partner, what about some of the physiological and psychological benefits that there are to good sex? Yeah. So sex is obviously on a short-term level it produces.

a range of chemicals that travel around our body and make us feel good. But the important thing is the sex has to be good for that to happen. So I'm sure we'll talk about the orgasm gap later. But if we think about the orgasm gap when women have sex with men in casual sex, it's really significant. So only 18% of women regularly orgasm from casual sex compared to 95% of men. So yes, we can think about the short-term physical benefits of sex. sex, but if you're having casual sex and it's not that enjoyable for you on a physical level,

then it must certainly be enjoyable on a psychological level. So you better be getting what you need otherwise, is what I'm saying. You know, good sex is not just all about orgasms, but yes, sex is good for our body and our mind, but only if it's good sex. Great point. And as the person who people tell their sexual problems to, as you touched on earlier, you've got all this unique insight from what you've seen in clinic and all the research that you've done for the book, how healthy would you say the sex lives of women in their 20s and 30s

are right now? That's a really good question. I work with people of all ages, but I see a lot of people in their 20s and a lot of people in their 30s. And one of the things that stands out to me most, I guess, in working with particularly women, particularly heterosexual women in their 20s, is that there is a massive disconnect, as you mentioned in the intro, between what women might want or might need from their sex lives and the type of sex they're actually having. So when I talk with women of that age, particularly in 20s, I'll come on to 30s later on, there tends to be a lot of hesitation about asking for the sex that they want, about feeling comfortable with their body.

And that's something that I think I see an awful lot of. So I think there is a disconnect there. And I see that shift a little bit when women move into the body. their 30s. And I guess, you know, women of all ages can be in long-term relationships, but being in a long-term relationship is often a kind of shift that happens in women's sexual lives. And so more women in their 30s might find themselves in that position. And then we tend to see a different picture, which is increased comfort in themselves and their bodies and less worried about what a partner might think of them naked or whether it's okay to say, actually, I haven't come yet,

that kind of thing. But then we tend to see a kind of dissatisfaction and a loss of interest in sex, which we might come on to later, I think, because it's quite a big topic. Interestingly, and I think this is important for people to hear because it affects all of us, women's sexual lives tend to improve the older they get. So as women move into their 40s and 50s, we actually see that their sexual satisfaction goes up, their sexual confidence goes up, their sexual assertion goes up. So I think we kind of have an idea.

that younger people are having the most sex and the best sex. And what I would say clinically is I think it's the opposite way around. I think that it takes women decades to shake off the shackles of all of the kind of negative media they've been exposed to all of the shuds and musts around how they should be. I think it takes women a long time to break free of that and start bringing that to sex. Yeah. And do you think there are any common factors stopping women having the sex that they want? Yeah.

So one of the things I talk about in the book, is that essentially we're raised in a sex-negative society. And so none of us are that great at talking about sex because we've been socialised not to talk about sex. But then when you add into that the impact of gender, we also know that women aren't really talked to about pleasure at all as being a likely outcome of sex. So we're socialised to think that an outcome of sex that we should expect is risk.

an STI or pregnancy or you know maybe that the person will maybe you'll get a name attached to you or that the person will lose interest so that's often what women are socialised to think that sex is that it will come with a negative outcome and then we've got the added impact of not knowing about genitals

not knowing about the clitoris not knowing about the fact that most women can't orgasm from penitif sex and then we move it into a society that privileges penititive sex as the main course of sex which doesn't suit women's needs as much as men. And then, I guess if you add on to all of that, the kind of wider gender politics of how women are socialised to perhaps not be too assertive

and to put other people's needs before their own, then all of that kind of lends women to start their sexual career, if you like, that's what we call it in the business, to start their sexual career in a position where there's quite a lot up against them. I guess one of the things that we touched on earlier is the orgasm gap. Yeah, tell me about that.

Partly this is the reason for it, all the things I've just mentioned. So the orgasm gap, what we know is that when women and men have sex together, men usually orgasm about 95% of the time, which is similar to what happens for them during masturbation. Women during masturbation also usually orgasm 95% of the time. But as soon as they start having sex with men, that rate of orgasm drops to 65%. So there's an orgasm gap. of about 30% when men and women have sex together, which is not about biology.

Because if you put them in a separate room, they could both do it in less than five minutes, 95% of the time. And when women have sex with other women, there isn't such a big orgasm gap. There is a tiny orgasm gap, and we could put that down to the ways in which women are socialised, as I mentioned earlier. But it's about the way men and women have sex together that causes that problem for women. The assumption that, you know, sex is about a penis in a vagina, which only suits kind of 20% of women in terms of a way to orgasm. Only 20%.

20%. Yeah. So most women, orgasm from clitoral stimulation and perhaps might enjoy penetration as part of that. But as the sole act, it really doesn't do it so much for women. But because we're all sold an idea, that's what sex is, especially heterosexual sex, then we kind of just go along with it. Of course, I'm thinking not even with, obviously, porn's an extreme example, but even in like films. Every film.

Even in normal films, it's always, yeah. I challenge your listeners to kind of notice the next sex scene they see on TV because it very much will be, usually a heterosexual couple and kissing and then kissing going straight into penitative sex and then both orgasming within a couple of minutes. And it just doesn't work for women. And so there are a lot of women who feel that they're broken in that respect when they're not. So it's about educating people more. So it's kind of about it's anatomy. A lot of it's about anatomy. Yeah. And it's also about assertiveness and communication and feeling confident to say,

I don't want the sex to look like that or I don't want it to look like that all the time. You know, it doesn't have to be that that's never involved, but that you should feel able to say, actually, I just want you to give me oral sex and then that's the end of it and not worry about somebody else's pleasure because that's why we have such a big orgasm gap. Because women are so socialised to be thinking what does he want, what does he need? Absolutely. Rather than their own pleasure. Yeah. And I wrote about this in the book because there's some really fascinating research around this and that when women don't orgasm, they worry about their partner's response to their lack of orgasm more than their lack of orgasm themselves. Yeah, we reported on this a couple of years

ago actually in women's health and I spoke to case studies and they were saying that they, we were talking about reasons for faking orgasms, but it was faking an orgasm because if they didn't, then they'd make the person feel bad and then maybe he wouldn't call, he maybe he wouldn't text them the next day. Yeah. And the amount of double think and mental gymnastics that people are going through, that women are going through, it's crazy. Yeah, absolutely. So there's, you know, so many reasons why people fake orgasms and one of them is, um, to protect somebody else's feelings, which, you know, is fine on occasion perhaps. I mean, it doesn't maybe help the whole kind of movement, but, you know, it happens and people do it.

But I think what you said earlier really stands out to me that a big part of it is about knowledge because I suspect that if more women knew, and if more of their partners knew, that they shouldn't be expected to orgasm that way, that might enable them to feel more confident to say, I haven't come, but don't worry, I never come that way. And either let's do something else, or I'm fine with it because actually that wasn't my, that wasn't what I wanted to get out of it anyway. You know, there are many reasons we have sex and experiencing orgasm and pleasure is one of them,

but there are lots and lots of other reasons. So it would be great if we could move to a place of being confident to say that. But to do that, we first need to not feel shame. and a lot of women in my experience feel shame because they think their bodies aren't working the way they should. And I know within the demographic that we're talking about, levels of anxiety and anxiety disorders are disproportionately high. Is there an argument that this is a demographic

that's just too anxious to get off? Or do you think that's a bit simplistic? Anxiety is a block to sexual arousal and it's a block to orgasm and it's a block to desire for all of us and we all have times when we're worried during sex about what we look like, about getting pregnant or not getting pregnant, depending on who you are, about what they're thinking, about all kinds of things,

and that's a normal experience. But for some of us, it gets in the way so much that people can't be in the moment and enjoy the experience and then it does start to really affect sexual function. I would say I see that across ages actually. Interesting. Yeah. It's biochemical as well, isn't it?

if you're stuck in this, if you're stuck in an anxious loop, or is it the, what is it the cortisol or something that you get from that? Does that reduce the impact of all the lovely neurochemicals that you get from pleasure? There's kind of two things that happen with anxiety. It affects us in two processes. One is that it physiologically interrupts sexual arousal because, as you mentioned, the presence of adrenaline and cortisol, there are a direct block to sexual response.

Our body goes, don't have sex. There's bigger things to worry about. and so it turns off the sexual response. So that definitely happens. The other thing that happens, though, is that for sex to go well, our attention needs to be focused on what's happening in the moment because it's kind of hard to explain briefly, but arousal and desire and sexual function are all dependent on our brain processing sexual stimuli. This is getting a bit scientific. No, I love it. Okay, so what happens then is if you imagine your brain as a pie chart of attention, total attention available to you is 100%.

You really want the biggest wedge of that pie focused on what's hot in front of you. So what you feel, what you can see, what you're thinking of the situation, what they're doing. You want your attention to be right there. And that amplifies your arousal and makes it easier for you to come,

makes it easy for you to feel desire, all of that stuff. What happens, though, when our attention is elsewhere, and anxiety is very good at grabbing our attention. So a worry like what are they thinking, of my thighs from that angle, if that's a big worry for you, if it feels really important, that can grab the biggest wedge of the pie. And the problem then is that your brain can't pick up on any of the sexual stimuli. It's looking elsewhere. Because there's a big flashing

siren saying body image alert or whatever. And that's the reason why it almost doesn't matter then how hot the sex is. If your mind isn't in it, then your body won't respond as if it is. Interesting. And I know there's been some quite interesting research on what's been turned to mindful sex. Yes. Do you have any strategies for how women can kind of get out of their heads and into their bodies? Yeah. So there is a tremendous amount of research that mindfulness as a technique is good for sexual function and it's good for all aspects of sex. And we actually know that women who are more naturally mindful in everyday life who have trait mindfulness, we call it, where their instinct is to be quite mindful, experience. more orgasms than women who don't. And let's just say so if someone is mindful in daily life, what would they, what's an example of that?

They might be someone who, for example, as they walk through a park, they find themselves not distracted by thoughts of work, but feeling the wind on their face, thinking, oh, that smells lovely, that tree that I'm walking past, just being in the moment, somebody who's good at being in the moment day to day. And a lot of us are getting very out of practice at that because we're used to constant distraction from smartphones or podcasts or podcasts yes so so yeah being naturally mindful is good but we also know that mindfulness is a skill that can be developed and a lot of the sex research tells us that people practicing mindfulness for a period of six to eight weeks see a difference in their sexual

response so it's a very important tool at our disposal and what I love about mindfulness as a tool for sex is that it's also really accessible it's it's something that people can get into cheaply and easily. So in terms of tips for how to do it, on a very kind of basic level, I would suggest that people download a mindfulness app. I like Budafi. I'm not on commission, but that's

one that I really like. And practice mindfulness every day outside of sex for five or ten minutes. And it's important to do it outside of sex because it's a difficult skill. And you have to be able to get skilled at it outside of sex to then be able to bring it into sex. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course.

And then after that, when people feel confident, being able to move their attention, which is all mindfulness is about. It's about intentionally directing your attention rather than have your attention moved by what's happening in your mind. Once people can do that outside of sex, then I get them to bring that into masturbation first. And if they don't masturbate, some people choose not to, they can be mindful to other things that they do with their body, like showering, like applying body lotion, whatever it might be. And then once they've got skilled at that, and that's more about paying attention to what

happening in your body, which obviously you can see is good for sex, then they can bring those skills into sex. It's a really accessible way for people to improve their sex life. Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, there's so much societal nonsense that we have to kind of wade through as women in order to enjoy sex. So much. That you do almost need to practice at these skills. It's probably not going to come naturally. Absolutely. And we're really up against it. And I think that's something that I feel really passionately about, that It's not sex in itself that's the problem, but all the obstacles that are put in our way from a very young age are the problem. And having to kind of wade through those and step over those obstacles can sometimes take a bit of intentional action.

I like that. Intentional attention and intentional action. Okay, so there's some really good tips on mindful sex there. What about, are there any other things that people can do? You talked about masturbation is if someone isn't really sure. what they like is having solo sex an important step to having better sex overall? Yeah, so there is a correlation between masturbation and having better sex, so we do know that to be the case. I would say that it's a really good thing for people to be doing,

for all the reasons you've mentioned, people need to know what they like, they need to feel less shame about their body, they need to be able to enjoy their sexuality outside of another person because sometimes we think about sex as being something we, our sexuality as being something that, happens with people but actually we all have moments in our day where we're expressing our sexuality whether we're flirting with the barista at pret whether we're masturbating whether we're you know some

people are really into dancing and it connects them with their sexual selves that our sexuality is much more than having sex with another person it's an aspect of our identity our personality and yes masturbation is one part of that and it's a good thing to do but I'm a big fan of getting people to think about that um almost on a wider scale than masturbation so think thinking about when are the times they feel most sexual or sensual, when are the times they feel most sexually confident, and when are the times they feel least? Women often say to me that things like, for example, and this is why it ties in so well with your podcast, what we're talking about today, women say to me that actually their health and when they're exercising,

when they're feeling good about themselves, tend to be times when they feel most sexual. Interesting. And that's an important thing for us to notice, you know, that it's not about weight. It's not about size. It's about feeling confident, feeling strong, feeling capable, feeling well. And that empowered feeling you get after a workout. Yeah. And we also know that exercise actually triggers boost sex drive on a physiological level, but it also boost sex drive on a psychological level. So for me, it's about getting women to think about their sexuality across the day, across the week. And what is it that makes them feel they're investing in that part of themselves and yes solo sex is one part of that but it doesn't have to be the only part of it

no as part of your identity that's such a good point so that's getting to know what kind of turns you on and gets you off um now i guess the next step if someone is having partnered sex is all about communication as we touched on earlier do you have any advice for let's start with um expressing what you want with a new partner so knowing what you want yourself is obviously where you need to start Yeah. With a new partner, I think it can depend on the stage of relationship that you're at and what you want to get out of the experience. So we mentioned earlier about kind of casual sex and if it's that kind of new partner, there might be something quite particular. You might want to get out of it that you don't necessarily need to tell them everything about what you want because actually you're in it for the excitement or you're in it for the connection and that's okay.

If it's somebody you started dating, maybe, so it's somewhere in between a full on relationship. relationship and casual sex, then one of the things that I often talk to women about is feeling able to have a conversation about sex outside of sex, which is a lot harder than we give it credit for, because as we mentioned earlier, we're all socialised not to talk about it. And I think that it's quite useful to pay attention to the other relationship cues that give you an idea that that is possible. So quite often with the women I work with, we talk about, you know, someone they might have started seeing. And I might ask them, how do you know that you can trust them? You know, what indications do they give you that they're interested in, in you and how you feel? And quite often, there are some strong cues that this person is interested in them, that this person wants to, it is putting them in mind, wants to put them first, all of those types of things. And that's a really good indication that this type of conversation will go well and that someone will listen and be open to it.

It can be useful to have a think about what you want to say before you say it, but it could also be useful to have some cues to work from. So an organic way to do that would be if a good sex scene comes on TV or a bad sex scene, you know, then that can be the perfect time to just seize the moment and say, I thought that sex scene was really hot and see what they say. And often they'll say, why or, oh, right, tell me more, something like that. And that provides a really nice way in to say, I really like the way this happened. I really like the way XYZ.

Or equally, if it wasn't great, then it's a good opportunity to say, I thought that was a terrible sex scene, did you? And then, again, we'll start the conversation. And it's just a way in. Or it can be, you know, I listen to this podcast on Women's Health podcast. They said, this, what do you think? Or it could be something you read in a magazine. So sometimes it's just having a way in to the conversation.

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Gambling Problem call Connects Ontario, 1866531-260. 19 and over, physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. I think that's such a good point because it almost diffuses it a little bit because it's not like someone's, because sex is so personal, isn't it? And it's so emotional.

You're taking it away from it being about them. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, there's also a way in is to ask them about their preferences first so that you don't have to talk about you, but you're kind of laying the groundwork for, I want to know what works for you because I'm interested in making you happy. I'm interested in your satisfaction. and it's very difficult for somebody to then not respond with, what about you at the end of that? And if they don't respond with that,

then that's probably a pretty good indication. That's a big red flag. That maybe you're not going to have very much fun. Yeah, time to move on then. But so that could be a way to do it. And I think one of the things I often say when people come to see me in therapy is I talk about sex all day every day. So I'm not at all freaked out about it.

But it isn't easy to talk about and allow yourself to feel a bit uncomfortable with the goal of a greater good of, you know, getting something you might need out of it. Don't expect to feel totally okay. You will feel a bit, ah, as you're raising it. And what about with, so if someone's not having satisfying sex with someone they've been in a relationship with for a while, how do you raise what you want then? Because surely that will present its own issues. So it all kind of becomes quite a different picture in a longer term relationship,

because at this stage communication takes on a slightly different need. So I guess the first thing to say about this is that communication about sex is the strongest predictor of long-term sexual satisfaction. So not frequency, not orgasms, not pleasure, not liking the same things as your partner. None of those things matter as much for sexual satisfaction as being able to talk about sex. So one of the things that I often kind of think about with couples is that relationships are a culture. You know, you create that culture together and we all can change cultures by acting differently within them. So it might be that you start off in that relationship not ever really talking about sex. And that's a culture the two of you have created.

And therefore it becomes difficult to bring it up. And I see this a lot in couples where the sex just works well from the beginning. beginning and in some ways it's kind of a disadvantage for them that the sex has been so good from the beginning because there's not had to talk about it or have a sit down at any point exactly it's just happened and it happens easily and because of that they're not practiced at talking about it and therefore when something happens when they need to talk about it and we'll come on to that in a minute because that's really important things happen all the time that mean we need to talk about it they're a bit out of practice um so some some some

couples start with that kind of culture and other couples are better at talking about it from the outset. What I would say is if people are in new relationships, get that culture started sooner rather than later and we'll talk about how in a minute. If you're in a longer term relationship, you can change that culture just by doing something different and it will feel a bit weird and awkward, but the more you do it, the more you'll create that shift and it will become easier over time. So one of the ways in which I try and encourage couples to do this is by, firstly, knowing how important it is to be able to talk about it. But secondly, creating a kind of regularity about talking about sex

that doesn't mean you have to wait till there's a problem. So the worst case scenario is that you never talk about it and then all of a sudden in the moment you say, I actually hate that you do that and I've not enjoyed sex for years. That's almost the worst way for this to come out. What we want to do instead is to create a culture where sex is something that you talk about doesn't have to be frequently, but just regularly, with an understanding from both of you

that your kind of wants and needs and preferences and your body are always changing because we're all shifting all the time. Everything that we want and need changes. We have different sexual preferences. Our bodies are changing. We have things like work schedules that crop up. We have things like pregnancy.

We have sexual problems that happen from time to time for people. And unless you create a culture of being able to talk, you will find that those things will be obstacles in your sex life. So a way to do that is to think of your sex life as though as you think about all other things in your life. So I guess you might talk with your partner about, you know, where are we going to live next year? Or where should we go on holiday in the next couple of months? And your sex life should really be no different. It's a conversation to have about proactively about where would we like this to be? how would we like this to go in the next six months, year, whatever.

And in the book I talk about, that's one of the kind of keys to future-proofing of sex life actually, is to think about how you can build that kind of conversation into your relationship in a way that doesn't feel problematic. Being able to look back on the year behind and say, these are three things I really loved about our sex life last year. And these are three things that I'd like to do more of this year. that's as simple as it is, you know, as it needs to be.

And the risk for a long-term relationship, if you don't do that, is that things will become predictable and say me is one of the things that could happen. And that's one of the problems of desire in long-term relationships is that desire does not do well with predictability. And the other risk is that one or both of you will undergo a change in what you want or need and the other person won't know. There's so much to discuss it. And I think we're almost out of time.

if there's one thing that you want going for goal listeners to take away what would it be it would be if you want your sex life to be a priority then you must treat it as such and the way of doing to do that is to understand how how your sex life works how desire works what the factors are that will keep sex good for the long term and what the factors are that might actually erode that over the long term and that's why I wrote the book and what I really want for people is to understand exactly how sex works so that they can steer their sex life in a direction they want it to go, not just be at the mercy of all of those factors that we talked about earlier. Because your sex life is always moving in a trajectory whether you like it or not.

The choice you have is do you steer it or do you just let it unfold? And yeah, that there's no reason why people can't have satisfying sex for the rest of their lives with the same person, but it does take some knowledge and some intentional action. Well, thank you ever so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. And congratulations on the book. Thank you. So, yeah, the book covers the topics we've discussed and so much more.

And it's called Mind the Gap, The Truth About Desire, and How to Future Proof Your Sex Life, and it's published by headline and out today. And if you like this episode, we have a podcast recommendation for you. Our sister title, Cosmopolitan, have just launched a brand new podcast called All the Way With. If you're curious to know what life is like in a thruple, that's a three-person couple, FYI, all what the deal is with orgasmic massage, then this is the podcast for you. And if, like me, you could listen to Karen talk about sex all day. We have good news. She will be joining us at Women's Health Live, three days of panel talks, workshops and workouts, brought to you by the women's health team.

For discounted tickets, visitwomenshelthive.com.com. And use the discount, podcast 10 at the checkout. And do keep all your emails, DMs and voice notes telling us about your. your goals coming. Thanks to all of you for listening. I'll be back next week, so be sure to tune in then, but bye for now. Bye-bye.