Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - How To Quit Perfectionism - And Why It's Holding You Back

Episode Date: February 27, 2020

It's the personality trait that comes with a cultural stamp of approval. Working hard, striving for better results, never settling - these qualities aren't just socially acceptable, they're actively encouraged. But while your perfectionism can indeed reward you with success, it can also compromise your emotional wellbeing. Research has linked perfectionism with a whole host of health issues, from raising your risk of anxiety and depression, to putting you on a path to burnout. This week, Senior Editor Roisín Dervish O’Kane hears from one of the foremost researchers on perfectionism, Dr Thomas Curran, Professor of Psychological and Behavioural Science at London School of Economics, and Clinical Psychologist Dr Jessamy Hibberd, author of The Imposter Cure, to find out why perfectionism can be so damaging, and how to manage it for the sake of your wellbeing.  Join Women’s Health on Instagram: @womenshealthuk Join Roisín Dervish-O’Kane on Instagram: @roisin.dervishokane Join Dr Jessamy Hibberd on Instagram: @drjessamy Join Dr Thomas Curran on Twitter: @thom_curran Have a goal in mind that you want us to put to the experts? Find us on Instagram @womenshealthuk and drop a voice note into our inbox, telling us your name and your goal, and it could be the subject of a future episode.  Topics:  What are the different kinds of perfectionism?  How does perfectionism hold you back?  How do you know if your perfectionism is unhealthy?  What’s the 80% rule and how can it help you? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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the Women's Health podcast with me, Rochene DeVisiercane. Not listened to us before? Here's the deal. Every week we arm you with the know-how you need to hit the health goals that you've told us matter most to you. Now, learning how to quit perfectionism might sound at odds with the aim of this podcast. After all, society rewards flawlessness

in everything from appearance to work performance. But the truth is, perfectionism is more likely to sabotage. your success and strengthen it. Scientific researchers link the personality trait with everything from burnout to depression. Singer Demi Lovato, whose mental health struggles are well documented, has opened up about her battle with perfectionism. So has Zendaya, star of HBO series, Euphoria. And the data suggests it's on the rise for women like you too.

Our features director, Nikki Osmond, who puts together this show with me, shared a properly moving personal account of how perfectionism has impacted her mental health and happiness. You can read it in our April issue, which is out next week. The expert's advice in this piece was so on point that we wanted to share it with all of you. So, joining me today is Tom Curran, Professor of Psychological and Behavioral Science at London School of Economics, and Clinical Psychologist Dr. Jessamy Hibbard, author of The Imposter Cure. Welcome, guys. Thank you for having me. Thanks a lot.

Pleasure to be here. Great to have you. Tom, so just briefly, how did you come to be researching perfectionism? Oh gosh, I'm going to give you the very, very abridged version. Yeah, go. So I started out as someone that was interested in health and physical activities. That's where my interest in psychology started around how we can get people more physically active and engaging in healthier lifestyles. Around about the time I was finishing my PhD, this variable, this personality characteristics sort of popped into a research paper that I was.

was reading and it really jumped out of me. It was perfectionism and it kind of struck a chord with myself. It was something that I related to and then I thought was really interesting but there wasn't a great deal of research that had been done on it. So really I did a couple of early, very basic research papers, looking at relationships between perfectionism and certain outcomes in health contexts and from there I did work on the growth and explode. of perfectionism in recent years, doing some more recent cohort analyses, looking at how it's increased over time. And that's where we are today. So that's the bridge version. Thank you. And Jessamy, how have you encountered perfectionism in your work? It's something that comes up in my

clinical work a lot, generally as a symptom of other disorders. So it can be a coping strategy that also causes people problems. And in my work, I've often kind of called it the problem that pretend not to be. And I did a lot more research on it when I wrote the imposter cure and there's a whole chapter on it in there which really made me look closely at it and actually looked at Tom's research as part of that as well. And it was there that I started to think about how it functions and how problematic it is because the person who's got it doesn't tend to see it as a problem, even though it causes all these problems because they look at the gains rather than the costs and it just really intrigued me. And like Tom and like Nikki, it's something that I then realized

I identified with too. Interesting. So it seems like perfectionism's got a bit of an image problem. It seems like there's a disconnect between people's perception of perfectionism versus what it actually is. Tom, would you agree? Absolutely. The amount of times I go to dinner parties or social events

and I talk about my researches on perfectionism, everybody almost is like, oh, I really relate to that. I'm totally a perfectionist. I see those sort of tendencies in the way that I go about. things in work or sport or leisure, even leisure activities, particularly things like baking, have become very competitive these days. And lots of people are really perfectionistic about even those activities. So it's definitely something is very popular. It's definitely something that people relate to, but the research is pretty conclusive that despite the energy that goes

underneath it and the amount of work and effort that we put in, there's a lot of baggage. and that baggage is tied up in things like mental health, difficulties, lots of worry, brooding, net-s, self-conscious emotion, shame and guilt, particularly when things haven't gone well, and that can contribute to quite significant psychological pain and things like burnout and exhaustion, if it's left unchecked. Put simply then, perfectionism, what is the definition of it? It's a personality trait, right? The academic definition is, it's kind of two-pronged.

excessively high standards and self-set goals and standards, but in combination with excessively harsh and punitive self-criticism. So yes, there's a behavioural component that drives us forward, and I suppose in some ways you could argue that that's positive, although the evidence for the success of perfectionist is limited. But there is a lot of, as I said, baggage that's associated with that high level of energy, and that comes with negative thought processes and patterns, particularly worry about how we appear and how we are performing relative to other people. And when things don't go well, when let's say we've encountered setbacks or we feel like we're rejected in some context, then that's an indictment on ourself.

That's not just an indictment of the activity, but it's indictment on the self. We feel we take it very personally, we take it on board as a weakness or a frailty that we've exposed, and therefore we self-castigate ourselves, how can we be so stupid, how could we have messed up, why do I look this way, behaviour this way, etc, etc, etc, and you can begin to see how that can have some really significant mental health complications. Yeah, even as you're talking, I'm just imagining this whirring of like a cycle, isn't it, of just beating yourself up and these impossible standards. Jessamy, how can, how does perfectionism hold people back? I suppose that you're valuing yourself based on what you do rather than who you are.

And so it's always about the achievements you've got. And achievements are really tantalising because they tell you, you know, when you reach this goal, everything's going to be different and better and your life's going to be more settled. And it undermines where you are now. So you devalue what you've got. And when you're feeling dissatisfied, instead of seeing the perfectionism is at work, you imagine that it's because you haven't reached that goal yet. And as Tom says, it's those really high standards.

And by everybody else's standards, even when you don't reach them, They think you're doing brilliantly, but you've set yourself these standards. And because it's entwined with your sense of self and with how you value yourself, then brings in that shame that Tom's talking about and those recriminations and the self-criticism. And it's tied up with so many other things because it brings fear of failure. You know, it stops you going for the things that you really want to go for. Procrastination tends to be tied to perfectionism. So you want to do these brilliant things.

But if you start, there might be a chance of failure. so you just don't start and you do loads of research and loads of preparation but potentially you never put it out there because you're not happy with the final part. So despite feeling like it's motivating you, actually it can do the opposite and the self-criticism also can be paralysing

as you just weigh yourself down and down. Yeah. And with the procrastination thing, then surely that will be another almost stick to beat yourself with if you're then saying, oh, I've worked so hard, but now I'm procrastinated

and now you're mad at yourself because you've been procrastinated. Exactly, and the solution to not feeling good enough is perfectionism and then perfectionism causes you not to feel good enough so it's like this vicious cycle. Wow, so it's one, it doesn't sound like a particularly happy place to be. Tom, am I right in thinking there's more than we spoke about some celebrities that have spoken about dealing with perfectionism in the intro?

But am I right in thinking there's more than anecdotal evidence to support the idea that it's on the rise? I did a big piece of work, 28 years worth of data retrieval, around about 41,000 college students across a 28 year period. And what we found was perfectionism was increasing over time. And there are three main elements. One is called self-oriented. That's a self-set perfectionism.

So I expect myself to be perfect. Another is other-oriented. So that's outward direction of perfection. So I expect you to be perfect. But the third one, and this is the one that undertook the largest increase, was called socially prescribed perfectionism, and that's the sense that the social environment and others expect me to be perfect. And that undertook a dramatic rise. It basically doubled from 1989 to 2017. And that's particularly worrying because socially prescribed perfectionism,

the sense that everyone expects me to be perfect is most strongly correlated with significant psychological problems, things like depression, anxiety. I guess that's the one you can't, you can't have a word with yourself. Like if it's coming from you, you could maybe work to try and, I don't know, lower your own standards. It'll be a bit kinder to yourself. If it's coming from someone else, you could have a conversation with them. But if you feel like it's coming from society. Yeah.

And that one's very much rooted in a desire for other's approval for self-validation so that I need other people to tell me that I'm performing well or that I'm appearing beautiful or I am in some way accepted by other people. And of course, that's exceptionally draining, emotionally. cognitively draining and also very, very damaging for our mental health because when things are going well, it's okay. But as I talked about when things don't go well, when we feel rejected, when we maybe haven't got as many likes or as followers or we haven't been, we haven't received that positive feedback for the performance that we need for our self-esteem, then we begin to see a lot

of depression, worry, shame, guilt and things arise which create a lot of psychological problem. And I think that one's so much harder to see as well, because it's like in your surroundings, in your environment. It's not you saying it to yourself, like you say, or somebody else saying it's you. It's so much more subtle than that. Yeah. Because it's, you just see it as reality. Yeah. Exactly.

And that's the thing. Like, we can have this argument about whether pressure in the objective outside environment is increasing, and I think it is. But it doesn't necessarily matter too much because this is a worldview. This is the way that I see the world. This is a lens through which I see the world. And irrespective of what's actually going. on, I perceive that other people are judgmental, they expect excessively high standards of me and a highly critical, particularly when I feel like I haven't performed.

And so it's about disguising what they feel as inner frailty from others and trying on a day-to-day basis to receive other people's approval. Interesting. And we're going to come on to some practical tips in a bit, but before we do, I found a really interesting point in the piece was saying that it's not something, because we think of perfectionists. and we often think of, I don't know, like an anxious school girl before GCSEs, or it's very highly strong Taipei.

But actually, it's not something you grow out of. Is there evidence that it can increase the older you get? Yeah, that's a really interesting study by Martin Smith, who's in York St. John University, suggests that actually perfectionism can increase over time with age. Like most personalities characteristics stay stable. They embed themselves within sort of mid-to-late adolescence. and they stay relatively stable over the lifespan.

But there's evidence that perfectionism can actually increase. And its perniciousness and its impact on mental health can increase throughout the lifespan. So that's a really concerning finding. And one, particularly in the light of the work that we've done, that's showing that it's increasing over time, has potential implications later down the road. So obviously the millennial generation has been increased, but it's not that suddenly they're going to grow out of it

when they hit their mid-30s. there's potential that if it goes unchecked, it could get worse? Potentially, we don't know, but that's a potential implication and one we should be aware of. But, I mean, it's going back to that cycle, right? Once you begin on this road, it's very difficult to step off, and it amplifies and accelerates. It's kind of like a self-perpetuating cycle, and then we think that might be one of the reasons why it tends to increase. And I think you get better practiced at it.

So it is addictive because you get these positive effects from it, that you're focusing on like praise or affirmation or approval or completing your goals. And then you get better and better at having strict rules around that. And you get more and more productive. And then when you're not productive, you're like, oh, this doesn't feel good. So you work more. And because your standards increase, then your drive increases too. And the kind of pressure you're putting on yourself increases.

So I can see that it approaches with age, you know, in my clinic. I could see that it started with me, not when I was young. when I was older. Yeah, tell me a bit more about that. So I, if you'd looked at me at school, I definitely wasn't the anxious school girl worried about her exams. I was the girl not working very hard. And then I did my university and it wasn't that different, my master's, but then when

I did my doctorate in clinical psychology, I found something that I loved and that I was good at. And it started in a really healthy way doing that. You know, I'd just met my now husband, so there was loads of time for fun. but when I was at work, I really kind of focused on it and did my best there. And then it wasn't until after I had my son that suddenly I had less time, but also I wanted to do really well in work. I didn't want to lose any time with him.

And so I felt like I had to make every moment count. And that if I was going to be away from him for work, then that work had to really matter. And it was then that I got my first book deal for the This Book Will series. So I got this deal to write four books, which was obviously an amazing thing for me. and, you know, thinking about it in terms of this endpoint I could get to and work really hard. But my life started to narrow.

And I didn't really have much time left over for myself. But it wasn't really until I wrote the imposter cure and was writing this chapter on perfectionism that I saw it. Because I saw it and I thought, well, and part-time, I work three days a week. I have lots of time with my kids, which I never kind of let my boundaries from work intrude on. But I was getting up earlier and earlier to write the book, so I didn't miss time with my kids. I wasn't going to the gym ever, or doing the things I enjoyed. In the evenings, I was too tired to see my friends.

And suddenly I was writing this chapter, and it talks about how your life narrows. And it talks about how you're striving to do enough, but it's never enough. And that that amount is, like, not even an amount you've got in your head. And I could see how my goalpost had shifted from the first lot of books,

which I was like, woohoo, you know, I've written some books to now the next book's got to be really good. And I think the biggest thing was to say to myself, well, if it's never enough, why don't I pick the bits that I like best? And seeing the costs of how it was affecting me was what really kind of opened my eyes and made me make big changes about how I did things. And how was it affecting you?

My rules just got stricter and stricter, and my life was squeezed into these kind of fast-paced, but narrow things that I was doing. So when I was working, I was working really hard and working really long days. When I was with the kids, I was totally with the kids. But all the things that I used to enjoy and that were just a natural part of my week, they weren't really there anymore.

So your identity then not as Jessamy the mom and not as Jessamy the psychologist is just kind of pushed out. Yeah. And that the biggest thing was that you know, I reached the goal of the first books but I wasn't like, okay, well done me. I was like, what's next? And that I didn't take it on board in any way.

I was just pushing forward to the next thing. So I wasn't even stopping to enjoy those things. And what, you know, the first book started as an idea of something that I just thought, I wonder if this would be helpful to people. I wonder, you know, something really nice and really exciting. And it changed almost like this stick approach of

that I had to work really hard all the time. And I just didn't really see it. Interesting. So not only can perfectionism hold you back so you can have almost the procrastination side, it can make you overthink things so you don't do them. But it can also hold you back in that once you have achieved that thing, there's no back patting, there's no self-congratulation.

It's just like, okay, right, the next rung on the endless ladder upwards. Yeah, and that you imagine achievement as a point where you stop and enjoy it. That's why I've kind of gone for those things and as sharing your ideas with other people. Yeah, I wasn't doing any of that when I got there. Unlearning those beliefs and habits must be really tricky if you connected them with how you've achieved all these things and how you've built up success. If someone wants to wrestle back a little bit of control, if they're kind of cringing in recognition here, where do they start, Jessamy? I think it's acknowledging it and seeing it like I did and actually stopping and questioning yourself

and seeing, okay, there's some good things that are coming here but what is the cost of this to my health and happiness? Something that I think of as well as, you know, imagine if you had a boss who was telling you to do all these things, how that would feel and that you would probably push back against it and yet when it's your own voice, you don't hear it in the same way, so externalising it in some way too. And I think it's also thinking,

am I managing to fit in all the things that I care about, as well as the things that I want to be good at or achieve in, because that's part of a healthy and balanced life? And it's not that I don't work hard now, because I enjoy working hard, but being conscientious and working hard, you know, you can still get the same highs without the sacrifice that perfectionism brings. Interesting. Do you have anything else to add, Tom? I think that's a really, really important point about identifying and being aware that actually, yes, there's. there might be some positive outcomes associated with this high level of, I guess, work and dedication, but it does come at a cost and at what point do you say that that cost is too high? There's an analogy of diminishing returns that are quite like on, as regards to perfectionism, where you have a point at which any further effort beyond a certain threshold becomes, you know,

the returns to that effort become lower and lower and so you hit an inflection point, at which point you actually find diminishing returns because you've compromised other areas of your life, social relationships, health, sleep, whatever it might be. And if you feel like that starting to creep in, then that's the point at which you have to step back and recognise that perhaps it's better to focus on some of the other aspects of your life outside of those performance contingencies

that you feel like you need to engage in because you will do better in that domain if you look after yourself in those other domains. Interesting. So I think, as just recently said, I think it's really important to recognize when perfectionism is beginning to take over and having a negative impact on your mental health

and then take actionable steps to try and address it. But it's a really difficult cycle to step off. And there's no sort of, I guess, hard and fast rule. And I'm not a clinician, so it's very difficult for me to provide any tangible advice. But that has certainly been something that's helped in my life to just reflect and think, okay, if things starting to take over and if they are, let's try and prioritize other things.

And giving yourself more a break, more sleep, better diet can help you actually perform better. So they're not mutually exclusive. Interesting. And I guess, Jess me, to your point earlier, there's, you can be perfectionist. It's not just about work, is it? You can be perfectionist about your fitness routine. You can be a perfectionist about being a mother. You can be a perfectionist.

So it sounds like from what you were saying, Tom, people need to almost, I don't know, find out their other values and their other interests that can kind of get lost along the way. How would you recommend people go about that? I suppose, again, it comes back to this idea of unhealthy perfectionism and healthy conscientiousness. So the type of people who are more likely to be perfectionists are hard workers. They're not doing well because of the perfectionism. They're doing well because they care about things and they're good at what they do. So when it comes to pulling back, it's almost seeing it as saying, okay, I'm going to put it.

in 80% and probably most people put in 60%. So you're doing more still than them. And I also think about three things as really important to have in your life, which is empty time. So time to switch off, reflect, you know, not do much. And for me, it's in my empty time that I tend to come up with my best ideas. And when you have that empty time and when I kind of prescribe that to patients and say, right, you've got to do a bit less. What they find is they tend to be more efficient in work. So like Tom says, they get back that what they've been losing through the exhaustion of overworking, they get back and it enhances how they're doing, whether it's at work, you know, like Tom said, in the baking or going to the gym or doing the things you enjoy.

And the second thing is to slow down so that you can take it all in a bit more. And when you slow down, you have a chance to feel gratitude for what you've already got and to focus on living your daily life and all of the richness that brings. And the third part is the natural highs, which again get cut out, and that's things like your relationship, like Tom says, things like running, you know, going to the gym or yoga, having a giggle, giving back to other people, you know, time with family or friends. And when you've got those natural highs in, too, you have a chance to kind of do all the things that you value and really feel yourself, and you're spreading what matters to you over a much

wider surface, so it's not just about how work's going. It's about your life in general and how you're living it And you're not measuring yourself just by achievement You're measuring yourself by who you are And the relationships you've got and the things that are important to you And that's so much nicer And it brings a much greater sense of contentment And it's not this like constant pushing forward

And I think what has to underpin all of that is compassion So getting rid of self-criticism And instead bringing a compassionate approach And that's not slacking off or not caring if you're do badly, it's coming to it in a way that you would for a friend or, you know, that you'd hope somebody would speak to you about it in terms of encouraging you to move forward, looking at what's not working, but really praising the things that are and seeing the whole picture of your life rather than this five or 10% that you're unhappy with.

If something does go wrong at work, say you lose your job or, I don't know, you get passed over for a promotion, then all your self-esteem, your eggs aren't all in one basket, are they, it's put in multiple places. So if one thing goes wrong, then that's not your entire identity. Exactly. And I think it's also, you know, if I think about the people that I love or my greatest friends, I don't love them or really like them because they achieve loads of things. I don't really care about their achievements. You know, I'll be impressed with them and I'll support them. But what I love about them is the person they are and the fun that we have together and the support they give me and the range of things that you gain from a friendship. And yet we think

that's important to other people. And I think it's turning it on its head and saying these things don't matter as much as you think. I love that. So almost reprogramming or changing the actor of that internal voice from the horrible boss to the good friend. Yeah. When you're talking to yourself. I like it. I think an important thing to say is we kind of know this. I mean, if you go on Instagram, you see a lot of mems that you be you, the offending self, self compassion. And they're shared very widely shooting style background or whatever But, you know, on this story. Swirly fun.

Yeah, exactly. But what's interesting is that culture pushes against those practices and processes. We're in this world where everything, it's an individualistic culture. It's very competitive. And social media can be a very positive thing in some ways. But it also can amplify some of the more negative tendencies around social evaluation and social comparison that are antithetical to some of the things that we've been talking about around self-compassion. and being content with how we appear and how we perform. These are really, really important practical, tangible steps,

but I would also say that as a society, I think we also have a shared and collective responsibility to actually push back against some of those themes, particularly around competition and social comparisons in social media, because I think they can be particularly toxic for people who have underlying vulnerabilities. And so as well as this being a personal issue and something that each of us we can make practical steps to change, I would also suggest that there is a broader context to this.

And I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I think it's important for us to recognize that it's not necessarily something that is within our full control because this is much broader. And the way that we feel is actually mandated by much broader factors in wider culture. and sometimes that's helped me anyway take a lot of pressure off myself to say that this is just the world I live in and the way that I feel and behave is often impacted by those broader things and even just recognising that can help take a lot of the weight off.

It's helped for me anyway. I completely agree. And I think one way that people can do that more widely is to show more of the failures and more of the times when you're doubting yourself and to speak up a bit more, and rather than showing the polished side, you know, opening up a bit more about the difficult days or what's not been so good and you can do that, you know, between friendships. And again, that's some change I made, just being a bit more open about everything that was going on rather than just the good bits. But I completely agree with Tom from society. It's about changing our definition of what success is because we're sold this idea that success is achievement. But in my experience, you know, in my clinical practice, achievement isn't what brings happiness. It's having this more kind of broad view of what is important in life and that's different for everybody and goals are a part of that you know approached in the correct way but it's breaking down the

idea of you know us as humans never needing to make mistakes and being able to find the perfect route through life and being able to do everything brilliantly and recognizing what it really means to be human and all the flaws and difficulties and vulnerabilities that brings with it Because people can make brands out of themselves, do you think we almost hold ourselves to the same standards that a brand would need to, i.e. these ideas of consistency and perfection and flawlessness. There's a conflict between what we're sold as ideal and the reality. And too many of us have internalized the ideal as something that's not just desirable, but obtainable. And of course, it isn't. It isn't. We're all. Like just me said, we're all flawed.

We're all imperfect. But that's what makes us, us, right? Like, that's who we are. That's our identity. And if we were perfect, we would be robots, right? We would be exactly the same. There would be nothing unique or individual or special about us. And I think it's about time we take ownership, actually, of those parts,

those imperfections and those flaws that make us us and celebrate them and embrace them. And I know that's easier said than done. And I know we're pushing against a tide of so many different forces. But I honestly think that opening up, being vulnerable, being happy to accept and share times when things haven't gone quite so well, it's really, really, really healthy. And as a society, if we can begin to do that together and share those types of experiences and those vulnerabilities, and I really think we can begin to break down some of those wider trends. But it isn't easy. No, of course. Final question to each of you, a quick one.

If anyone's still struggling to even want to shake off their perfectionist tendencies, what's better than being perfect? How would you sell it to them? I suppose that it's being realistic about the change. So it takes practice and getting into making time for those things. Like Tom says, you know, if I think about when I first started incorporating yoga into my working from home day, I felt like I was truanting and that I was being a bit naughty by going and doing that because I was doing something just for me. But I think it's seeing that how you're living isn't working for you.

And you know that deep down when you really look at it. So isn't it just worth trying it this other way when it offers so much more in terms of long-term happiness? And, you know, it's giving you benefits against all of those things like anxiety, low mood and all of the other costs that Tom's mentioned. And so isn't it worth a try? Great answer. What about you, Tom? Every single time we hit a setback or we don't feel like we've performed particularly well, of course, that's going to be disappointing. and no one's saying that you should be totally immune to that disappointment.

But the crucial thing is to not let it take over and overspill into disappointment with the self. And that's where, for me, it steps into perfectionism. When you're castigating the self, rather than trying to fine-tune the performance or how we can improve or grow, that for me is where perfectionism begins to become problematic. So I would definitely say, yes, always strive. It's really important. conscientiousness is good, flexibility, perseverance, diligence. These are all very, very positive traits.

But when we hit setbacks, when we hit bumps in the road, just take a set back and be compassionate on ourselves, look at where we can learn, look at where we can grow, and try to move forward. So that would be my advice. That's a brilliant place to end on. Great advice. Thank you both so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me. That's almost all from me. But just to remind you that as a listener of Going for Goal, you have an exclusive discount to Women's Health Live. That's our three-day health, fitness and wellness festival taking place from the third to the fifth of April. You'll be able to catch some of the world's biggest fitness stars, including Kayla at Senors, Gillian Michaels and Anna Victoria, as well as have the chance to work out with the likes of Kelly Homes and Alice Living. For the full line-up, visitwomen'shealthlive.com.com. And for 10% off your ticket, enter Podcast 10 at the checkout. It's going to be a ton of fun.

to see you there. Thanks for listening everyone and until next time.