Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - How To Set Goals When the World is a Mess

Episode Date: January 12, 2021

It’s natural, at this time of year, to think about what we want to do, achieve and be. Whether in our workouts, our work lives - or just regarding our relationship with ourselves. But with so much uncertainty, national lockdowns and a news cycle that’s enough to make anyone want to retreat back under the duvet, making plans, plotting goals and actually achieving them is tougher than ever. When we polled our audience on Instagram, over half of people said the sheer mental load of 2021 had sapped their motivation to set and strive for their health goals. If you’ve got no time or energy for self-improvement right now, that’s totally understandable. But, if you do, committing to small changes in your own little world could be of real benefit during this wild moment we're living through. But how do you choose goals that you love too much bail on? What can you do to ensure you’re striving for improvement in as kind a way as possible? And how do you keep yourself focused and on-mission, in the midst of…*all this*? These are among the questions we grapple with in today’s conversation, with help from Dr Anita Aitsi-Selmi, a medical doctor and public health expert-turned-transformational coach to leaders in medicine, law and business, and author of The Success Trap. Along with Dr Heather McKee, a psychologist and behaviour change specialist who helps companies and individuals make healthy changes, and make them last, with her Bite Sized Habits course. Topics: Don't set goals until you've done a mental declutter  How to do an energy audit to work out what you need The case for setting intrinsic goals Don’t love goals? Try rituals instead Why self-kindness leads to more success Like what you’re hearing? We'd love if you could rate and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, as it really helps other people find the show. Also, remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so you’ll never miss an episode.  Got a goal in mind? Shoot us a message on Instagram putting ‘Going for Goal’ at the start of your message and our experts could be helping you achieve your health goal in an upcoming episode. Alternatively, you can email us: [e-mail] Please read! Life is hard for many right now. We love sharing ways that you can make yourself feel and function better, but if you're struggling with your mental health please seek support from a GP, therapist or other professional. Charities such as Mind (mind.org.uk) and Rethink (rethink.org) can provide more information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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responsibly. When you support Movember, you're not just fundraising, you're showing up for the men you love. Your dad, your brother, your partner, your friends. It isn't just a men's issue. It's a human one. That's why Movember exists. To change the face of men's health, from mental health and suicide prevention to prostate and testicular cancer research and early detection. Movember is tackling the biggest health issues facing men today. Join the movement and donate now at Movember.com. How do you think about setting goals, one that will support and sustain your well-being this January and beyond, when the world feels like such a mess? That's a question we've been asking ourselves, and since we couldn't come up with any satisfactory answers, decided it was one definitely worth putting to the experts. Hello, I'm Roshin-Dervichael, and this is Going for Goal, the weekly Women's Health podcast.

Week in, week out, we recruit the help of our wide-ranging network of expert contacts to us. arm you with the tools you need to make good on the health goals that matter most to you. And from time to time, we pull our favourite celebrities and wellness heavyweights for a chat about what healthy habits help them feel and function at their best. Now, it's natural at this time of year to set out our aspirations for things we want to do and achieve and be, whether that's in our workouts, our work lives, or just regarding our relationship with ourselves. But with so much uncertainty and a new cycle that's enough to make anyone want to retreat back under the duvet,

making plans, plotting goals and actually achieving them, it's harder than ever. When we polled our audience on Instagram, over half said that the sheer mental load of 2021 had sat their motivation to really go for their goals. While we're not saying that everyone has to create some goals to aim for in January and beyond, there's a real argument that committing to small positive changes in your own little world could be of real benefit during this wild moment that we're living through. But how do you choose goals that you love too much to bail on? And what should you consider to ensure you're striving for improvement in as kind a way as possible?

And how do you keep yourself focused and on mission in the midst of all this? These are among the questions we grapple with in today's conversation. With help from Dr. Anita Aitse Selmy, a medical doctor turned public health expert, turned transformational coach to leaders in medicine, law and business. And Dr. Heather McKee, psychologist and behaviour change specialist, who helps companies and individuals make healthy changes, and, crucially, make them last. Let's get into it.

Dr. Amina Aitse Selmy and Dr. Heather McKee, hello, both of you, and welcome to going for goal. Hi, Rishy. Hello. It's great to have you both here and to talk about the subject that's at the very heart of this show, which is setting and smashing health goals

to ultimately feel and function at your best. Now, this is a very January conversation, but this is no normal January. all of the UK is operating under some form of extreme COVID restriction and the new cycle is intense, to say the least. And it's having an impact on our listeners' abilities to set and achieve their health goals with over half of people we've surveyed saying the intensity of life right now has truly sacked their motivation. And that's why we've got both of you on. So two people who are in the business of helping people to transform and, optimize and be their best selves to help us wrestle back a bit of control of the narrative

of the start of this year. You will introduce yourselves far better than I will. So Dr. Helen McKee, let's start with you. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you do? Yeah, of course. First of all, happy new year. It's a tricky one this year, as you say. So I'm a behaviour change psychologist. So I've spent over 10 years kind of researching, lecturing, speaking on health behavior change psychology. And basically my kind of drive and my mission is to offer a sustainable evidence-based alternative to an industry saturated with quick fixes and health fads. So what I do is I support businesses and designing digital and in-person wellness programs and individuals through my bite-sized healthy habits course. So my big passion is helping people maintain habit changes

long term. And Amina, you've got a wealth of experience from lots of different places. you tell me a little bit about what you do? Yes, I'm saying I'm not sure what to call myself or what title to give myself. So I'll just say that when I was asked what I wanted to do at university, I felt that I wanted to help people. And because I loved science, people plus science equal medicine, and that's what I ended up doing. And at university, you realized that clinical medicine, it just felt like it wasn't enough to help people. And so I went into the idea of doing public health. And so I spent 13 years or so working in clinical medicine first, so understanding how conventional medicine works before then going into public health

and learning about how society impacts our health, how our psychology impacts our health, and looking at what kind of policies and interventions can be made. Even the bigger picture stuff wasn't enough to help people or there was some something about it that felt limiting. And that's when I realized I might need to step out of my previous career in the conventional world and systems and disciplines that I was part of to integrate new modalities and led me to what I do now, which comes under the umbrella of coaching, and you might call me a transformational coach.

And essentially, I work with individuals and groups who were thinking and reassessing where they are in life and thinking maybe of going in a different direction, either through their career or in how they lead in the world. Are you surprised by the fact people seem to feel a little less motivated and a little less energized this January? Heather, let's start with you. No, I'm not surprised. You know, we've all experienced this kind of monumental shift in our role, our place, our purpose. and, you know, we've had all this unprecedented flux in our lives. And I feel like, you know, it's very hard to motivate yourself when you don't see hope in the future. And you, you know, when you're stuck in a particular kind of groundhog day.

But interesting enough, you know, and we can go on to talk about this if you like, but now more than ever is when we need a routine. And if we go through history, you know, anything. time that people were in flux during periods of war. If you go back as far as every Vedic texts, you know, they talk about, well, actually when control or freedom is taken from you, actually going back and working on that certainty of routine, working on your habits, it adds rhythm, it helps you regain control, and it helps you build some structure in your uncertainty. And so I think now more than ever, you know, our habits are so important because

they take the pressure off our thinking mind because they're non-conscious processes. So it's not like, you know, everyone this morning lay in bed kind of weighing up the pros and cons of dental hygiene deciding if they wanted to brush their teeth or not or if they were motivated enough to brush their teeth or they were in that toothbrushing frame of mind. You know, we did it because it was a habit. It's part of our daily routine. And that's what I want people to focus on, not to worry too much about motivation, not to worry too much about setting big audacious goals, but working on those habits that are going to make

us feel best at this time. And I also want to acknowledge this, there's this kind of underground group of people who feel fine, and they feel they can't say that because it goes against maybe what the majority of people are feeling. But I think it's important to acknowledge there are people out there who are okay right now and what can we learn from them. Maybe that is because they are less focused on goals and more focus on habits. Maybe they've kind of set these routines in motion. So there we've established why it's important to focus on these little routines and set in place these healthy habits

because it can make you feel a little bit more in control, which I think everyone could do with a bit of right now. Now, I want to move on to the main part of this podcast where we look at kind of how people can go about setting in place these healthy habits and achievable and achievable goals. Amina, let's start with you. So where I'd suggest my client start normally is with a relaxation and a radical declutter because most people will come and they're overwhelmed.

There's too much going on. They're confused. There's a lot of brain fog. So it doesn't help to add more at that point. So it's a bit counterintuitive because people might come to coaching thinking I'm going to tell them things to do. but it's usually the starting point is the opposite. So it's making space and cutting back on things and focusing on one thing at a time as needed.

And we then take it from there. They usually notice the effects pretty quickly. And then we might be able to start talking about goals or things that want to create proactively. Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense. And that's really interesting because obviously this year we are, living, there's lots of noise. There's lots of noise this year, but there's lots of noise everywhere in the sense that I think we start the new year and there's so much, there's often

so much aspiration in lots of different directions. We want to achieve lots of things and we want to fix lots of things about ourselves. And so what you're saying is that it's actually, it's actually very important to strip that back and choose one kind of direction. Have I understood that correctly? Yes. Or even before choosing any direction, just kind of landing, within themselves and kind of coming home first before trying to go out for a new adventure. Interesting. And how would someone do that? Is that in, like when you're talking about coming home, the way you were saying that, that to me almost sounded like, I don't know, like a relaxation exercise or like a breathing exercise. How would you advise that someone kind of mentally

clears their own decks? There might be some very practical things. Like, well, what do you feel you need to do right now? What is on your to do list? And then does. does it really need to be there? You can do a little audit of things that energize you and things that drain you and then just reduce the things that drain you by 5% and increase the things that energize you by 5%. Interesting. And Heather, what about you? If someone came to you and they want to get out of a habit or, you know, start another good one in a positive direction, what approach would you take? Well, yeah, I love Amina's approach in terms of clearing the decks because it kind of sets up my approach. perfectly in a way that I always say to people, and you've probably heard it before Simon Seneca talks about

how we should start with why. And ultimately, you know, so often when it comes to our habits or our goals, we let the outcome so that number on the scales or the number on our paychecks or how many miles we've clocked in the gym, be that sole indicator of success. And goals that are cent around those external influences, so influences like a performance or appearance, they're known to be in psychology known to be sources of extrinsic motivation. And, Basically, the research has shown that those goals that are extrinsically driven, they're unsustainable long term, in particular when it comes to forming healthy habits. These goals, they need external validation, they need others to say you're doing well, they need the scales to tell you the right

number, they need the social media likes. And when you focus all your attention on a numbers-based goal, you can start to obsess over that number. But on the other hand, goals that are formed for personal significance because they mean something to you. These goals, like their goals that reflect who you are and what you wish to represent as a person, they're much more what I like to call sticky in a good way. And they're known as intrinsic goals because they're intrinsically or internally motivating for you. And intrinsic is a lovely word. It comes from the Latin word for inward, which means goods for the soul. So examples of these would be, you know, being healthy is important to you because you want to be the best you can be in every aspect of your life. You want to have more energy. You want to feel more vital. You want to be able to focus

with your work. You want to be a positive role model for your children. And because these intrinsic goals are linked to your values, in other words, the things that matter most to you, they're much more motivating than extrinsic goals. And ultimately when it comes to staying on track with your healthy habits, it's not your willpower to resist temptation that leads to long-term success. It's knowing what you're pursuing is part of who you are, has a higher purpose, and it's intrinsically motivating. That's what keeps you going in the trenches. And so what I would say to people is, ask yourself, you know, this year when you're setting resolutions, when you're setting goals, you know, by improving my health habits, you know, how do I want to feel? What does it help me achieve? What type of person

does it make me? And instead of feeling frustrated at chasing this short-term snapshot, fleeting dream, you actually become more focused and you give yourself the space and compassion to experiment to find things that you enjoy and then your ability to stay on track long term is enhanced. Now streaming on Paramount Plus is the epic return of mayor of Kingston. Warden? You know who I am. Starring Academy Award nominee Jeremy Renner. I swear in these walls. Emmy Award winner Edie Falco.

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earlier and it's almost like this year, extrinsic goals are probably, they're probably even harder to get to. Do you know what I mean? If lots of companies have pay freezes, hiring freezes, there's going to be lots of, unfortunately we're entering recession. There's going to be job insecurity. People can't even go out and date.

So you're probably not going to get like the rush of exciting new love. You can't go on, well, the moment you can't go on an amazing new holiday. I feel like lots of the, kind of outward things that you might usually use to define success or enjoyment and fulfillment, they're probably not going to be there this year. So I think there's a real argument for focusing on the intrinsic, the intrinsic stuff. When an exercise, you know, I would say to people, particularly in this time, is, you know, when you're starting off and you're thinking about news resolutions or goals or habits, you know, ask yourself, you know, similarly to, I mean,

is, you know, de-clutter, ask yourself, like, what brings me joy when it comes to my health habits? You know, what is it that I actually enjoy? Do I enjoy the refreshing feeling that a walk gives me? Do I enjoy the buzz I get after a workout? Do I enjoy, you know, the energy I get from eating, you know, a really fulfilling and nutritious breakfast? You know, instead of kind of pursuing those activities that we feel we have to do, why not proceed those activities that we feel we want to do? And so I would say, you know, you could start even before you set your goals by asking yourself, you know, what are those health-giving activities I actually enjoy? And, you know, the women we need in our life right now is a little bit more joy. And so if we can bring in more joy and savor more joys and actually

tie those joys to our goals, then it's much more like, you know, we'll have a more enjoyable year and a more successful year. I love that. Let's pivot towards joy. Yeah, I think Heather and I are on the same page in that it's really about what's important to you. You know, who do you choose to be as a person. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does. And there's something really empowering in the word choice and in choosing what's important to you, especially, especially at a time now, where I think people feel like they are not particularly empowered. I've been talking to friends over the last couple weeks because I always do a lot of reflecting around the new year. And we talked about what were our peak experiences, what were our challenges this year. And, you know, some people

got put on furloughs, some people lost jobs, some people lost relatives. But interestingly enough, a lot of people have said that they've never in their lives fostered a better relationship with themselves. And, you know, they've gotten to know themselves more and they feel more in tune away from all of the distractions about what does and doesn't work for them. So it's interesting. It's a very privileged position to be able to come from the position of, oh, let's use this time to understand ourselves better. But if you do have that privilege, you know, it might be worth before we even set any new goals for the new year, stepping back and asking yourself, what were your peak moments of last year? What were the key challenges that you faced? How did you show resilience in overcoming them?

And one exercise that I love to get people to do, and I do it on my course is a strengths exercise. I ask people, you know, what are strengths that you have? What are strengths that you show? Maybe the strange you've shown in the last week, in the last month, in the last year, maybe it's strength over your life. Maybe, you know, you went traveling, you secured a job, maybe, you know, you're a parent, whatever it is, you know, maybe it's resilience, creativity, friendship, caring. I get people to draw those strengths as leaves on a tree and I ask them to contribute one extra strength each week. So by the end of the year, they've got this beautiful tree that's full of reminders of how they have strength because so often we spend so much time focusing

on our own personal weaknesses on what we're inadequate about you know are we kind of feel like we need to self-critique our way through life but ultimately if we focus on our strengths and we put our strengths into focus and that's why it get people to do to draw it so it becomes a visual thing that actually it can help really empower people to focus on everything that they have learned everything all the strengths that they have grown throughout this time you know know, another thing to look at this time of year, and especially now, you know, a lot of people are in a new lockdown is our environment that we're in because it's nearly impossible to change our habits in an environment that doesn't support change. And what I mean by your environment is,

like, anything in the world surrounding you, you know, for example, we make 250 food choices a day and each time you're exposed to a food, you need to make decision whether or not to eat it. We get, you know, multiple phone notifications a day. you know, computer notifications, all of these things. And, you know, ultimately, you know, willpower is like a muscle, you know, and if we overuse it, if I go to the gym seven days for the next, you know, lift weights on my right bicep for the next seven days. By the time I get to Sunday, I won't even be able to lift up a glass of water. But if I do an adequate amount over time, you know, I'll get stronger. And the thing is, the research shows that those are the strongest

willpower are those that use at least. And so it's nearly impossible to eat healthy all the time if you're living and working in an environment that's full of unhealthy foods. It's nearly impossible to stay on task or manage our anxiety if our phone or a computer is constantly notifying us. So what I say to people is like, you know, instead of critiquing yourself or beating yourself all but your inability to stick to your goals, have a look at your environment. Have a look at rearranging your environment. And a really interesting concept of behavioral science. is friction. So we want to increase friction for unhelpful behaviors and decrease friction for helpful behaviors. And so what do I mean by that? So Netflix is a great example of this. You know,

they decrease friction to binge watch, you know, the latest series because they preload it for us. And so what we want to do is we want to increase barriers to actually engaging in those habits that we find are unhelpful right now. So, you know, can we hide away the unhealthy foods? Can we get out of our house altogether. Can we decrease friction to exercise by putting our yoga mat out, by having our runners by the door, by having the notifications we have around exercise,

around meditation, around gratitude, whatever our goal is. And basically, you know, what they found time, time again, the research is that if we can reduce the friction to our helpful habits, habit formation becomes easier. So if you want to have it to form part of your life,

you need to have it in your environment. So, Amina, what would you what tips do you have on fostering accountability with an intrinsic goal specifically? Yeah. So I want to acknowledge that a lot of the people I work with, they're pretty good. They're high performance. They know what to do. They've got everything set up. They've got all the latest, whatever. Everything is optimized. And they're good at discipline and keeping themselves accountable. So it's not something that I have to, you know, address a lot. It's more, understanding and changing a relationship to themselves or how they see themselves,

how they relate to their experience, so that it's more compassionate, for example, rather than that constant high performance mode. If accountability ever comes in, then it's like anything else. You just need to put things in your schedule. You need to show up. And if you don't show up, you need to explain why and say what you're going to do about it. And then that awareness develops and the muscle develops over time. and if you can front load as Heather was saying,

so your environment's helpful, the people around you are helpful, and you know, you've got what I might call a set of rituals, borrowing something from more, that's a bit more religious or spiritual, so that it doesn't have that harshness of accountability and goals, then it can be something fun, you know,

something that you do that's a bit more creative, a bit more artistic, rather than just around, and sort of has that quality of discipline and structure. And Amina, you were saying there about self-compassion. And actually, so you work with these ridiculously qualified super alpha people at the top of lots of lots and lots of different disciplines. But what they need in order to really get the best out of themselves

is more self-compassion. Now, that may seem counterintuitive to some people. Can you make the case for why self-compassion is so important when it comes to not only success, but enjoying your success and having fun with it. Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think it's a growing area of interest in the more recent research and psychology, but bringing more compassion as a sense of kindness certainly seems to take them to another dimension or level of performance that's a bit more fulfilling.

And I think that's really interesting. and so timely now, when you're saying, we're talking about self-compassion, you mention self-kindness. Because this is a quite, you know, people are operating under quite tense conditions at the moment. Actually, Heather, that's something that I want to ask you about. Obviously, there is a lot of threat around.

How is that going to be affecting people's kind of psychological functioning in their productivity? and how should they bear this in mind when they are looking at, when they're setting goals, but also when it comes to monitoring their success? Yeah, it's such a great question because, you know, we all have a whole new pressure in our lives, so many little micro pressures that we've never had before. And the interesting thing is for often many of us, when we're under pressure, our critical self-talk or our inner voices actually become more critical and less helpful.

The interesting thing was actually one of our past research studies, we found that those who were unsuccessful at sticking to their goals. They often abandoned their goal because they felt so bad about, you know, not doing it perfectly. They basically felt like if they didn't implement, you know, their health habits perfectly, why would they bother at all? And this old or nothing mindset is something that a lot of people are experiencing now while they're trying to set up new habits. And it's important at this time keeping in mind all of these threats, you know, to let go of this idea. a perfection. In particular, it's important that we let go of the negative feelings associated with trying to do things perfectly, trying to manage everything, trying to keep all the plates spinning. It doesn't lead to long-term success and actually it enhances the likelihood that you're being

unsuccessful. Whereas in the same research, we found that those who were who were most successful at sticking into their healthy habits, they had a different outlook on failure. Once they did something that was contradictory to your goals, instead of beating themselves up about it, they looked to learn from it, if they gave into temptation, if they strayed, if they weren't able to manage everything at once, they became curious as to why this happened. And rather than berate themselves for lack of willpower or motivation, they understood that, you know, what was going on for them was temporary. And after examining maybe why they lapsed or why they strayed or why they couldn't manage it all, they looked to learn from that situation and move on. And I think

that's an important thing for people to think about right now is we need to look at things with a curiosity rather than a critique. We need to look at things like this is a new situation for many of us and we're doing the best that we can and we need to say that to ourselves many times a day. And it's a beautiful piece that a compassion researcher called Chris Neff does where it's called a self-care check-in where she says throughout your day, you know, stop, take a moment to stop and maybe you want to anchor this into a habit that you have. So maybe it's every time you boil the kettle. and just put your hand on your heart and ask yourself, what do I need in this moment to feel nourished?

What do I need in this moment to take care of myself? And it might be, you know, as you guys said earlier, it might be that you just need a glass of water or something to eat. Or it might be that you need to connect with someone. You need to feel socially validated. And this is actually a really interesting technique because it helps us understand the drivers of our own helpful habits because so often we kind of, you know, plow on through our day

with our coffees and our sugar and our alcohol to help us get through. But actually, if we stop and truly ask ourselves, you know, what do I need for nourishment right now? You know, what's driving me right now? You know, is it that I feel lonely? Is it that I feel anxious? And, you know, is this hunger, you know, an emotional hunger rather than a physical hunger? And actually taking the time to check in with ourselves and asking ourselves, well, what do I need right now to manage this? can really help us tune in to the fact that we're all human and we're all just trying to do the best that we come or what we've been given right now.

So when you take that moment of pause and you speak to yourself and how you're illustrated as well, Roshin, you're being compassionate towards yourself. You're choosing a more compassionate approach or action. And coming back to what you said earlier about the threat, the sense of threat that the pandemics triggered, you know, clearly recognizing what's going on, saying, okay, this is going on. It's not my fault.

There's not much I can do in many ways. And that's okay. It's not all on me. It's not my fault. And what I can do is to try and care for myself and the people around me. And I truly believe that when human beings are cared for, you know, not taunted and not traumatized, they naturally know what's good for them. You know to eat this and not that.

You know it's good to sleep and you know what people are bad for you and what people aren't. So if we can bring a sense of compassion and that creates a sense of inner safety, if you like, it tames that inner critic that's the source of so much psychological suffering. Then naturally we know what to do. We can set goals and we can follow through. Because we're not constantly looking out for the next danger or the next threat. So clear the decks mentally. Focus on.

Think about what it is that you want to, that you want to be and that you want to choose to do. Get your environment in a supportive place. And then remember to keep it kind and keep it compassionate and to not berate yourself over stuff. And what about in terms of reviewing where they're at and how can they monitor? to their growth. Heather, what do you think about this? Yeah. So one question that I tend to ask people is when and where will you perform this habit this week. And basically that takes the goals or the resolutions or anything out of the clouds and into the real world. And they found in studies, you know, that they showed people information that motivated them to exercise. And then they ask

the other group, you know, when and where are you going to exercise this week? And the when and where group in 91% more likely to actually execute on their goals. So one thing everyone can ask themselves is when and where do I want to perform my goal? Visualizing, allowing your imagination to show you a fun, joyful goal or just a goal or whatever it is. And then allowing your flexibility in your identities. Like, I'm not a fixed set of habits. Research has shown we can change until we die. We can learn and unlearn until we die. Otherwise, what's the point of science? clinical psychology and coaching. There's no point if it's not true. We know about brain plasticity now. So you're not fixed. You're not a fixed entity. You can change over time and you can

bring your awareness and consciousness and make choices that are supportive moment to moment. Yeah. I love that you say that, I mean, because again, that kind of reflects on the situation that everyone's in right now as well. This situation is temporary and things will get better and it is not fixed. And so all we can do right now is focus on how to stay as well and as happy as we can in this situation and be as compassionate and be as kind to ourselves in this situation because this two shall pass. And right now we need to just, you know, be as kind and find as much joy as we can in the current situation because we will get through this. That sounds like a really wonderful place to end. So Dr. Amina Aitse Selmy and Dr. Heather

McKee. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. That was great. Thank you. So foreground joy, keep it kind and really take time to work out what goals are going to be meaningful for you. Great advice there from transformational coach Dr. Anita Aitze Selmy and behaviour change psychologist Dr Heather McKee. As ever, if you want to comment on anything that we've raised in the episode, get in touch. All the details of how to do so are in the show notes. As are some resources and contacts that may help if you're struggling with your mental health right now. And if you've listened to this episode and come away all fired up about a goal you want to achieve and want expert advice on how, let us know. And we could be helping you realize that ambition

in an upcoming episode. That's all from going for goal this week. We'll be back next Tuesday. Take care of yourselves. Bye.