Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - How To Take Control of Your Hormones

Episode Date: June 24, 2020

This week we’re going full-on health geek and diving into the fascinating world of hormones. Why? Well, because getting to grips with how these little chemical messengers work is integral to achieving so many of the health goals you tell us you want to really nail - whether that’s having more energy, being more productive, or maintaining your happy weight. In this episode, Roisín is joined by GP and integrative medicine specialist Dr Sohere Roked alongside Dr Michael Craig, a consultant psychiatrist at London's Maudsley hospital and a leading PMS researcher. They discuss how hormones actually operate, how to get yours in balance and why, if you’re eating well and working out but still feeling decidedly off, they might be to blame. The doctors also discuss the latest research and treatment options for common hormonal conditions such as Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) and severe PMS. Time to plug in, get to know the inner workings of your body a bit better - and, ultimately, help it work a bit better for you. Join Women's Health on Instagram: @womenshealthuk Join Roisín Dervish-O’Kane on Instagram: @roisin.dervishokane Learn more about Dr Sohere Roked: drsohereroked.co.uk Learn more about Dr Michael Craig: craigclinic.com Topics:  How hormones operate and the key systems for women One simple way to monitor your symptoms  The lowdown on premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD) Natural ways to manage PCOS How stress hormones impede weight loss and maintenance Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Yep, it's the most powerful iPhone ever, plus more peace of mind with your bill over five years. This is big. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro at tellus.com slash iPhone 17 Pro on select plans. Conditions and exclusions apply. And welcome everyone. You're listening to Going for Goal, the weekly Women's Health podcast. My name's Rochene. I'm Senior Editor on Women's Health and this is your weekly chance to plug in, be inspired and get expert advice on how to achieve the health and wellness goals that matter most to you. This week we're going full on health geek and diving into the fascinating world of hormones because getting to grips with how they work and how you can make yours work for you is absolutely integral to achieving so many of the health goals you tell us you want to really nail.

whether that's having more energy and being more productive to maintaining your happy weight. These little chemical messages, whether they're involved in your menstrual cycle, stress response or your appetite, are absolutely fundamental. Especially because if they are out of whack, as you're here in this chat, your well-intentioned nutrition and fitness habits can actually make things worse. We're governed by them, essentially. So in this case, knowledge is definitely power. happily my guests have a ton of the stuff Dr. Sahara Rocket is a conventionally trained GP who practices functional medicine

out of the Omnia Clinic in West London and online she's been prescribing bioidentical hormones for years and believes that hormone balance lies at the foundation of good health then we have Dr Michael Craig a consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley Hospital in South London who also has his head really in the academic research around hormones as he is a reader at the Institute of psychiatry, psychology and neuroscience at King's College London.

They joined me earlier this week to discuss how hormones impact so many areas of our health and how everyone listening can get theirs on side. I hope you enjoy it. Okay, so Dr. Sahar, Rocket and Dr. Michael Craig, welcome to going to Goal. Thank you. Hi. Thank you for inviting us on to the programme. Yeah, good to be with you.

So this episode we are talking about hormones. The science of how they work, the way they can affect everything from your mood. and your energy levels to the way that you hold weight around your middle, basically how they affect everything. We're also going to be talking tactics for how those of you listening can spot if your hormones have got a bit of haywire and how you can manage common conditions that they're involved in. So if you are regularly battling with PMS or one of the millions of women worldwide

with polycystic ovaries, stay tuned because we have some tips from our expert. Now, before we get into all that, I'd love for you both to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your background and how you came to be working within this field. Dr. Sahara Rocket, let's start with you. Sure, so I'm a GP at the moment. Prior to being a GP, I did actually work in psychiatry for three years. And I was always really fascinated between the link between the mind and the body.

And I found when I was doing psychiatry, we kind of really focused on the mind and controlling that and not looking at all the other factors that could also have an influence. on your mental health and well-being. I started to learn more about functional medicine and lifestyle medicine, which is really looking at the root cause of what's going on, and also looking at how we can influence that with things that we do in our lifestyle

and how we look after ourselves, which has always been my sort of innate, natural way of looking after myself anyway. So that kind of came quite naturally to start looking at that for my patients. So I initially became very interested in nutrition and supplements and the way that has an impact on health. And then I started learning about the hormones because I was definitely seeing a cohort of patients who told me they were eating right

and taking their supplements and managing their lifestyle, but they weren't feeling any better. And the sort of, you know, arrogant doctor in me thought, oh, they're probably not doing it right and they're just saying they are. But then when I learned about hormones, I kind of felt that that was the missing link. That's the foundation of your health.

So, you know, if you look at the, you're building a house and hormones are the foundation, where you're putting in all the good bricks, which is your nutrition, exercise, managing your stress. But if the foundations aren't good, your house isn't going to be good, no matter how great your bricks are. So then that really caused me to hone in on focusing on hormones and seeing how that could improve people's health. And I just really like to, I love empowering people just to take control of their health and seeing that, you know, health isn't something that just happens to you. It's your genes or it's not your genes. There's so many things that you can do to influence your health and well-being as well.

Oh, absolutely. And it makes total sense that you came to specialise in helping women with their hormones, given how fascinated you've always been with the interplayed between mind and body that these guys are so fundamental to. Dr. Michael Craig, you work within one of the most trailblazing institutions within female health in the UK. How did you end up there? Well, a very short version of my career

is that I trained originally as an obstetrician and gynecologist and then moved to the Mortally Hospital and the Institute of Psychiatry in South London initially for a brief period or what I thought was going to be a brief period but I subsequently stayed there and completed a full training in psychiatry. and the research that I subsequently developed there has been at the interface between psychiatry and obstetrics and gynecology,

in addition to setting up our specialist clinic, the National Female Hormone Clinic, which aims to try and combine our understanding from these two specialities within a particular clinic. Interesting, interesting, and is there a lot of crossover between the two? The patients that are referred to us clearly do have a crossover, in as much as they are typically people who have severe premenstrual dysphoric symptoms or mood problems around the time of menopause, perimenopause, and to a lesser degree around the time of childbirth, I say to a lesser degree because services within the NHS are far more developed

for perinatal mental health. For people around the time of menstruation or the menopause, they're less well developed, particularly when it comes to mood disorders. So hormones, it's a word that we hear a lot about, and I think increasingly people are aware, especially in the health and wellness space, about how fundamental they are to our health. Dr. Rocket, can you give me a brief working definition of what hormones are and how they function in the body? Hormones are like little chemical messengers that our bodies make to communicate with other parts, of our body and cells and they have biological impacts on things that happen within our bodies

but also have a huge impact on how we feel and as you quite rightly said you know we've often thought about hormones in terms of puberty menopause pregnancy but they're not the only hormones in our body you know we have other hormonal systems such as the thyroid system which can control things like your weight and your energy and your mood and then we have our stress hormones, which are made by the adrenal glands, and there are many other sort of hormonal changes go on in our bodies, looking at things like blood pressure control as well. So it's not just about your female or male reproductive cycle, they're actually really important messengers for lots of different things.

I don't know how Michael would see that. Yeah, I think I would agree with that in as much as there are a number of different hormone systems. I think the other thing that was touched upon is the fact that the effects of hormones on our brains and body are things that occur right from the very, very beginning. And one of the areas that we're learning a lot more about at the moment, for example, are effects of maternal hormones on the developing fetus right at the point where it's in the womb and how that actually contributes to brain development, vulnerability to neurodevelopmental disorders, and perhaps depression later on in life.

And in addition to the times that you've mentioned, we also have, you know, right at the end of life, the effects that hormones are having. So in addition to there being a number of different hormone systems, the important thing to perhaps highlight is the fact that hormones have an effect on all of us right from the very point that we're conceived. Well, that is absolutely fascinating. So pretty much from start to finish then,

And they're all in the background running the show. But I guess you only really think about them when they cause a problem. Yeah, in my practice, that's something that I find, that people tend to come to see you when there's a problem. And also, I think something that's really great that I've noticed over the last five years, is that people are far more aware of their hormones. Because as you've said, before we think, puberty, fertility, menopause. whereas people are kind of more aware now that, oh, actually, I'm in my 30s, I'm maybe not looking at fertility right now, or that's been and gone, but I'm not feeling right, and there could be a hormonal issue, because I'm doing all the other things right in terms of diet, exercise, you know, lifestyle things, so what else could be going on here?

And I think that that's really great that people are becoming more aware. the hormones can govern more than just your fertility and puberty and menopoles. Right. Something we hear a lot about is this concept of hormonal balance and things going wrong when someone's hormones aren't in a state of balance. This is quite an airy-fairy, nebulous sounding word. What does being in a state of hormonal balance actually look like and why does it matter? I would say when I'm seeing a patient who comes to see with me because she feels her hormones aren't in balance, you know, it means different things to different people, exactly like you said. So I try and find out what that individual in front of me means by that. So, you know, it could be that she has some thyroid issues in her family and she's noticed some weight gain and her energy is fluctuating a lot, so we would look at that. It could be that she finds that her energy, varies at different times of the menstrual cycle. And that's actually very common.

And to an extent, one might say, oh, well, isn't that normal? The hormones are varying within your cycles, you're going to feel different. But I think it's the case of when it's interfering with your life. When it's having an impact on the way you relate to other people, when it's having an impact on how well you can do your job, or whether you have to cancel social engagements, then to me that's telling me the hormones aren't in balance because it's having a very big impact on your day-to-day life

and it shouldn't be having such a big impact. So I would look to see how we can regulate this throughout the cycle so that you're having your normal fluctuations but not having a huge impact on day-to-day life. Ontario, the weight is over. The gold standard of online casinos has arrived. Golden Nugget Online Casino is live, bringing Vegas-style excitement and a world-class gaming experience right to your fingertips. Whether you're a seasoned player or just starting, signing up is fast and simple.

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See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Yeah. Yeah. And because energy is something that you, Sirha, you wrote a book, didn't you call The Tadness Cure? I did, yeah. So I wrote that book in 2014 now. And I wrote it when I was mainly just doing NHS GP work. And I wanted to user-friendly guide to people about, you know, nutrition.

What supplements can help with that? How you can boost your immune system. How you can regulate your stress hormone. So things that anybody could do at home, really, with a little bit of time, I guess, but not necessarily huge expense. So if someone is feeling off and then noticing this persistent, low mood, anxiety,

or utter exhaustion, and have a feeling that this may relate to their cycle and with it, their hormones, how would they go about figuring out if it's their hormonal issue that's going on? And how would they then go about getting it sorted? I think one of the key things, as we've already heard,

is that one would, first of all, do some very basic tests to make sure that there are not other things that might be contributing for somebody feeling tired or moodings, such as being anemic or having a problem with their thyroid system. But assuming there is a cyclical variation that matches the menstrual cycle, the diagnosis is made primarily on the history. And typically, we ask people to keep diaries of their mood and try and also keep a diary of their menstrual cycle and see how those things fit together. But it's a misunderstanding that you can do a blood test, for example, to determine whether or not you have a premenstrual dysphoric type of disorder or not. You really are dependent on the history of the person that's sitting in front of you and trying to get some, if you can, quantifiable measures of their mood in relation to the menstrual cycle.

And then you really can go in and start implementing different types of treatments. And those would include the types of functional treatments that we've heard about, so diet, exercise, they do lead to some very significant improvements if people focus on those things. But for the type of people that very often end up in the clinic that we run, those things have generally been dealt with by the referring GP or physician, and we're looking at other types of treatment that can then be implemented. Dr Craig, I want to pick up on something you said there,

where you're talking about premenstrual dysphoric disorders. Our listeners are probably aware of PMDD and the fact that it's sort of colloquially referred to as a really bad form of PMS in which the psychological symptoms in particular are amplified to the extent that it's really hard to regulate your emotions. Is this characterization correct? I'm a trustee of an organisation called the National Institute for Pre-Menstrual Syndrome and we've recently changed our names the National Institute of Pre-Mensual Syndrome because we recognise that there are a variety of different diagnoses out there

that try and encapsulate the difficulties that some women will have premenstrually. Interesting. And the bottom line is, as we've already heard, the importance is how much are these symptoms affecting somebody's life and trying not to get too caught up in a specific diagnostic criteria system and saying that somebody, for example, can't have treatment because they're not ticking all the right boxes. If it's having a profound effect on their life, that's the important thing. PMDDD is a diagnosis that comes from the American diagnostic system. It's called DSM-5, and PMS, I think, in terms of it being something that encapsulates a lot of different syndromes,

maybe a better way of looking at the whole condition. And there's a lot of shame attached to it, right? Because people can have such extreme symptoms. And I guess it's that toxic cocktail of shame and stigma, really. You've got shame about periods and hormones and all of that, coupled them with the shame of being, out of control mentally and emotionally. There must be so much stigma involved. I think over the years that I've been in psychiatry,

I've seen a reduced stigma with regards to people approaching doctors and psychiatrists for mental health problems, but it still remains a very significant one. What I probably notice as well in the clinic is that there are people that will approach a psychiatrist if they recognize a hormonal component, because although you say there is a stigma with hormone problems, I think there's less of a stigma for some women relating their mental health to their hormones

than there is to something that they would consider more psychiatric. So with regards to women that come to our clinic, some are very open to the idea of hormonal therapies but would not take the type of treatment that a psychiatrist would generally prescribe, whereas other women might only accept the type that a psychiatrist would prescribe because they're concerned about things like breast cancer or other negative effects they may get from hormones. And some people will not take either of those

and really just want to know about what the non-pharmacological treatments are, which there are many, including psychological therapies and some of the functional type therapies that we've heard about. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought about it like that at all, but yeah, I guess it all goes back to that whole idea that things do seem less sinister when there's a bodily element as opposed to it being all in the mind. Definitely.

As we said before, hormones are at play all over the body. And something we at women's health get asked about so often is weight loss and weight maintenance. If someone is struggling with being able to stay at their happy weight, how could their hormones be feeding into that? And what might they need to look at? So there's a few different things. There is lifestyle, of course, as we've said, a few times. because things always start with lifestyle.

So that's really important just to find out, you know, what they're eating, how they're eating, how often they're eating, you know, what sort of exercise do they do. All those things are really important. I think stress plays a very big impact, not just on our female hormones, but in general on other things like weight, because the stress hormones are very inflammatory in our system, and then that could make it more difficult to. to lose weight. So, you know, I know it kind of sounds like we've got a tendency just to bring stress for everything. Oh, it must be stress.

But the stress hormones do have a huge impact on all the different systems on our body. So looking at how we can address that and a good stress management program is really important. And that was one of the things I was always very interested in when I did psychiatry, not just the pharmacological side of things, but what else can we do day to day to manage our stress, whether that be talking therapy or, you know, touch therapy, like, you know,

massage or acupuncture and things like that. And how can we get that to fit in with someone's life? Because it has a huge impact across the board. Another really important area, which can also be part of if your female hormones are not in balance, is insulin resistance, or like a pre-diabetic state. where you're not a diabetic, but your body's producing a lot of insulin to keep your blood sugar normal,

and that's going to make it far harder for you to burn fat and control your weight, again, because it puts your body in a state of inflammation. We also know from female hormones, there are certain syndromes like polycystic ovarian syndrome, which makes it harder for you to manage your weight. So I look at those things with the patients I see to try and figure out

where the problem is exactly and where we need to address it. And PCOS, so polycytivoreen syndrome, is something that affects loads of women, right? Isn't it like one in ten? Yeah, I think that's round about the figure. But, yeah, there's the full syndrome, and then there are people that have aspects of it, aren't there? Yeah. But the other important thing about polycystic ovarian syndrome, PCOS, that I always tell people is that it can reduce or go away with certain changes and lifestyle.

So, you know, it can improve. It's not like, because people was worried about fertility long term and things like that. So, again, there are lots of things you can do to have a positive impact there to improve things. Yes, that is such an important message to get out there. So let's talk about what people can do. PCOS is, again, something we're asked about loads. what advice do you have for anyone who is listening who has been diagnosed with PCOS and is struggling with any of the symptoms? So I would always say, right, what's going on diet-wise?

How can we... So, you know, I think the problem is that there's so many different things out there on diet, and, you know, you should be fasting, you should be doing keto, you should be doing 5-2. You know, it's very confusing to know what you should actually be doing. but I like to work with people to find something that works for them because it's not that keto's bad it just might be the keto isn't good for your body

and how you're going to process fats in yourself. So I think it's quite important to listen to the person in front of you and look at what's worked in the past and modify that. Again, I think stress modification is really, really important.

I mean, just all being through a very stressful situation over the last few months. Even if you've been coping with it, well, there is element. of stress there. So looking at what you can build into your routine to manage your stress every day, be that some yoga or some breath work, or looking at doing things like journaling or having a gratitude journal, all these things actually have an impact on health, and that's really beneficial. And again, looking at exercise. And for some people, it could be a case of

doing slightly less exercise than they've been doing could be of more benefit. Because if there's a lot of stress women's in the system and they're doing a lot of very intensive hit type exercise, that might be putting more strain on their body. So for them, it could be a case of slowing it down, doing more yoga, more walking, and that would have more of an impact if there's a lot of stress in their system. Interesting. So then even though they would be thinking, I have stubborn weight or something that I want to shift, therefore I should be working out harder to stop that. That would increase their, is it the cortisol or the adrenaline or is it both? The cortisol response, yeah. Yeah, it's both reasons.

So it increased the cortisol response. And how would you define that cortisol's role in the system? So cortisol is really, really important. It helps you cope with stressed so that, you know, if you're in a stressful situation, like you're being chased down the road at night or, you know, you have to be on high alert or for some reason, cortisol is. You know, great it's very important but a lot of us live our life on overdrive now and we have that stress response to emails coming in you know things we're seeing on social media phone calls are receiving unexpectedly and we're having that same heightened response as if we were being chased in the middle of the night

by a stranger and that's obviously not great because our body doesn't need to be in that level of overdrive all the time so we need to learn to regulate our stress response again so that we're less reactive in that sense to things that don't require us to have such a large stress response and if you're prone to having quite a high stress response definitely doing a lot of vigorous aggressive exercise could be making it worse and then causing your fatigue to be worse or causing some inflammation in your system and some weight gain yeah i think an important point there with the concept that stress itself isn't bad we want an optimum stress.

And then a very interesting thing called the Yerkes-Dogsum curve, which I don't know whether you know about, but it's a psychology plot of performance against stress. And if you have zero stress, your performance is right down at the bottom. And if you have too much stress, your performance is right down at the bottom. But in the middle, your performance is optimum. So you perform your best if you have an optimum amount of stress, but you don't want to go too far one way or the other,

otherwise you end up in difficulty. And that's probably true, not just for cognitive things, but also for other things like those that we're talking about. Yeah. So stress isn't bad, too much is and too little is. Yeah. Again, it's that concept of balance, isn't it? And being at the right set point.

Dr. Cray, do you have anything to add to this conversation about managing PCOS in a healthy way? I think the main thing that I'd probably bring up as a single point. psychiatrist is that mood disorders like depression and anxiety can have effects on people's appetite. Sometimes people will eat too little, sometimes people will comfort it and can put on weight. And therefore, screening people for mood disorders and anxiety disorders when they've got weight problems is very important. Also important with the fact that some psychiatric medications can lead to people putting on weight and they might be better off if they're

switch to a different one. As can be the case, with some hormones. I mean, many people will describe how they put on weight, taking the contraceptive pill, for example, and that's something that also needs to be thought about. It can be something that's very helpful for some women, but very unhelpful for others. So again, it's a case of looking at the individual and seeing how these particular things are affecting or not affecting them. So we've talked about specific hormonal conditions and tips for managing them. And we've But I kind of want to know about the fundamentals of good hormonal maintenance that all women can think about.

You know, whether or not they've had a condition that means they're more aware or attuned to their hormones or not. So some general advice would be brilliant. Obviously, with the massive caveat that, of course, all women are different. There are certain supplements that can help with hormonal balance. So I quite often, from a functional approach, look at, you know, how are they metabolizing their hormones? So I look at B vitamins because that can help with methylation, which helps you process your hormones better, works on certain gene pathways to help that. I also look at other supplements such as zinc and magnesium that can help with your hormone balance.

And that also helps balance your stress hormones. and then I can also look at herbal options, which obviously need to be discussed with your doctor to make sure they don't interview with other medication you're taking or any other underlying issues. So that would be things like Agnescastus, that can help to balance your hormones in the second half of your cycle. And also vitamin D is very important in terms of mood.

We've learned very recently. It's also very important for your immune system. in terms of seeing the outcomes with coronavirus, so vitamin D is a good all-rounder. So they're the sorts of things I would also look at with my patients, as well as the lifestyle things and also prescribing hormones if needed. I think all of those things are really interesting and sources for what is probably needed in terms of more research, because I think the difficulty that we've got with a lot of these things at the moment is the absence of very good evidence-based trials that have actually looked in.

into the relative benefits of various things, from vitamins to minerals, et cetera. Agnes Castas is something that has had some greater support in terms of a randomized controlled trial for things like EMS, but the problem is that there are so many things out there that working out really what does work and what doesn't work is a bit of a minefield for people.

And I'm hoping that there will be more research in that area, carried out. I think the other area that is of particular interest academically at the moment is the microbiome and the impact that your gut flora have on all of these things. And it's likely that what's beneficial for one person may not be beneficial for another, partly because of the microbiome they have. And manipulating the microbiome, I think it would be an important thing that we do in the future. But again, that is another minefield where the assumption that any probiotic is good for you is probably not true but we don't

quite know which probiotic to give to which person quite yet so these are all areas that need further search and I certainly as a doctor wouldn't be poo-pooing them I would just say look at the moment it's very complicated the idea of tailoring treatments to individuals is a great idea and I think something that we're getting much closer to, but we've still had a long way to go. I'm just going to agree with Michael. Definitely, you can't just look at everyone who comes and through the door and go, oh, have this much of this and have a little bit of this, you know, magnesium or agnus castas.

But one of the things I also do with my patients is measure some of these things. So then if they're low, then it shows that there was a need for them in their system. And then we can always re-measure it afterwards. So that's more of a tailored sort of functional approach than just go in. oh here are all these different supplements and away you go sort of things so that's one of the reasons people come to see me as well because that's something I can do for them absolutely like you're able to give them that understanding and help them join the dots because that's the thing with so many hormonal conditions like those we've spoken about and so many more they're so

frustrating because things aren't operating in the desired way you know because there are things going on under the surface that mean, as you say, your healthy habits aren't having the effects that they should do. I know from speaking to so many women over the years about this topic and those surrounding it, that once someone is able to understand what might be going on at a hormonal level, it really helps them make sense of things and shed some of the self-blame over why their health isn't exactly where they want it to be right now. So that's a great point.

right we have gone through loads there and I realize we're almost up to time so before we go we ask this to everyone same question to both of you Dr Crave let's start with you if there is one thing you want people listening to take away from this conversation about understanding and improving their own hormonal health in order to maximize their own sense of well-being what would it be I think as a psychiatrist I would have to say don't be ashamed of coming forwards with the difficulties that you might have because there are good treatments out there that could really help and make a difference. And I think a big obstacle for many people is the shame that they feel that perhaps then as perfect as they should be, and therefore they avoid seeking the kind of help that could really make a difference. Same question to Dr. Rockett, please.

Yes, that's a great point. I think I would add to that to get to know your body better. You know, don't just think, oh, I'm a woman. this is normal that I feel awful for half of the month. You know, just get in tune with your body, speak to your girlfriends. You know, empower yourself. You know, you don't have to feel awful all the time. If you don't feel right, you don't feel right.

I think that's really important to take home. You know, you're not making a fuss about nothing. It's your life. You know, you have to have a quality of life. And the women who come to see me in clinic, that's something that I really try and help them to understand that they don't have to feel this way and there is hope you can definitely feel better than you do.

Absolutely. Don't settle for less. If you think there is something wrong, there almost certainly is, so it's worth investigating if doing so can help you feel and function a whole lot better, right? Right, both of you. Thanks so much for coming on the show and imparting all of your wisdom on all things hormonal health.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having us. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. I so hope you enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Sahara Rocket and Dr. Michael Craig. If you have enjoyed the episode, absolutely. Please do rate and review on Apple Podcasts and remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcast

so you never miss an episode. And as ever, if you've got a goal in mind that you want some help with, it can be anything across the whole spectrum. of health, fitness, wellness, happiness, absolutely get in touch because we'll know someone who will be able to help you get there.

So all that you need to do is message us on Instagram and putting going for goal at the start of your message. Anyway, that is all for me this week. I hope you have a great rest of your week and I will catch you soon. Bye.