Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - Laura Hoggins: Why Pilates Isn’t Enough

Episode Date: May 19, 2026

Laura Hoggins, aka Laura Biceps, joins Gemma Atkinson and Claire Sanderson to talk strength training, Pilates, muscle, midlife fitness and why women need to stop fearing weights. Laura explains why Pilates and yoga have their place, but may not be enough to build and maintain full-body muscle. She also shares practical advice on progressive overload, gym confidence, fuelling your workouts, recovery, training after 40 and building strength for life. Plus, Laura opens up about egg freezing, fertility, hormones and learning to respect her body during a physically and emotionally challenging time. Want more from Women’s Health? Join the Women’s Health COLLECTIVE for workouts, exclusive events and expert advice to unlock your fittest self - Train smarter. Live better. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hi, I'm Gemma Atkinson. And I'm Claire Sanderson. We've just recorded an episode of Just as Well. My goodness, I want to go to the gym. Yes. Yeah, she's an inspiration.

Laura Huggins, also known or better known, possibly, on social media as Laura Biceps. And biceps, the biceps came in the room before Laura did. They did. She's in good nick. I'm not convinced she didn't go in the Lou beforehand and do a cheeky pump and do like 30 precepts to get the blood flowing to them because they were pretty impressive in real life,

weren't they? Very impressive, yeah. And she doesn't just like talk the talk, she walks the walk as well. She's so knowledgeable when it comes to strength training for women. She's very open-minded about everyone doing something rather than nothing. So whether you're a Pilates girl, a yoga girl, strength training, whatever it is you do,

Laura says there is space for it because we need to keep moving and keep going. Because, yeah, she's been a PT, a personal trainer for 11 years. She was late to the fitness industry, which I didn't realise. She was 30 when she left her previous career in corporate marketing. And she transitioned to a PT when she was 30, which was 11 years ago. She's released a book since. She's a best-selling author.

And as we just discussed, a huge advocate for women lifting weight. She's a font of all knowledge. She's very open about the personal struggles she's been through. She spoke about egg freezing as well. She's recently had her eggs frozen. And she spoke about how difficult that transatlantic. was not just hormonally, but physically and mentally and emotionally. So, yeah, it's a really interesting deep dive into female health, female strength training.

But yeah, I want to go gym. Well, in fact, she has written a plan for women's health. Oh, it's on the app, isn't it? It is. It's on the... So if you become a member of the Woman's Health Collective, you get full access to our app, which has an ever-growing library of training plans.

And Laura wrote a build and burn full body training plan. She did, yeah. And it's very simple but effective. So I think I'm going to go to the gym and do Laura's plan. Well, you enjoy. And you guys enjoy this episode. Laura, welcome to Jess as well. Thank you so much for having me.

It's great to be here. So I'm thrilled that you are on here because we have known each other for 10 years now, 10 years. Does that make you feel a bit old? It does a little bit, I'm afraid, but you're always going to be slightly older. I knew you were going to say it. I knew you.

I could see the glint in your eyes. You were about to take the piss out of me. That's not very nice, is it? Well, I think we've, through those years, I think we've evolved and developed, and I think we're at the stage where we can say that, can't we? Yeah. And I bet none of you look 10 years old or whatsoever.

I bet you both still look the same as when you're married. I think we look better, if I say so myself. Yeah. Like fine wine. Well, you and I went into the gym together two weeks ago, didn't me? And she was saying to me, clear, you look the best you've ever looked. I actually did say that, didn't I?

That's nice. Yeah. So she can come back. Yeah. So, Laurie, you are a PT of many, many, many years experience. Yeah. You must have learned, but you've seen it all. You've seen the representation of women's bodies change, how we train,

what women prioritise and what they've deprioritized. Yeah. I think, well, for me, I started my career as a personal trainer. I would say a bit later in life because actually, you know, I'll fess up. I'm 41 this week. I know obviously I don't look at. This week?

This week, yeah, big 41. So I actually made the career change at the ripe old age of 30. Before then I had a previous corporate career. And for me, it was just, I think I'd gone through my own personal journey of finding fitness and how much impacted my life that I thought, actually, if I can be someone that can help guide other women, I really want to do that. And 10 years ago, only 10 years ago, and I think you can probably agree, the fitness industry was a completely different space.

Huge, yeah. And I think even over those 10 years, like you say, there's thousands of people that I've trained, thousands of hours on the gym floor, I think the positive steps that we've made as an industry to be more inclusive, to be more supportive of women. I think, you know, obviously it would be remiss of me, not to mention, you know, as we're here,

representing women's health, we know that there isn't enough research on women. And I think we're still working out as we go. I know I am personally. and professionally, I think, yeah, it's a difficult place for women in particular in the fitness industry. But, yeah, it's nice to witness your journey, I would say, actually, over that time. Maybe you would admit to your goals changing over that time as well. Yeah, no, absolutely.

When I first took over a woman's health, which was 10 years ago this year, the representation of women was so different to what it is now. It was all about shrinking, being smaller, you know, cardio was king. At that point, muscles were not celebrated, strength in women was not celebrated. It was frowned upon to have muscle, wasn't it? Yeah, it wasn't seen as... Yeah, it wasn't attractive at all.

And I think the explosion of CrossFit did wonders for strong women being celebrated and being seen as attractive and not as some sort of fetish. Because I think actually musly women were fetish. a decade ago. And in women's health, we made a concerted effort to broaden

what women look like across our platforms. And now strength is celebrated, isn't it? And I went to the gym on Sunday down near where I live and there was a lot of younger women and I'm talking late teens,

maybe early 20s, lifting heavy weights, you know, trying to get the bigger glutes, trying to get the bigger glute, trying to get the shoulder. that wasn't happening 10 years ago. No, not at all. And I remember when I, I think I sort of first got into strength training. Actually, it was through body pump.

I went to body pump. Body pump. Les Mills. Yeah, but Les Mills. I think it's fantastic because actually it was a gate, it was the first time I touched a barbell. And I felt like, I felt unbelievable. I did about 1,000 reps and I was absolutely battered by the end of it.

I think it's fantastic. But it was the first time I touched a barbell. It was full of women. And it felt so empowering. And from that, like you mentioned around CrossFit, I started going into CrossFit. And at the time, there was hardly any women doing it. And you're right about the aesthetic.

That was a personal sort of journey. But then professionally, I remember when I started off as a PT and I was talking to people in the industry and one man in particular who I think is fantastic and I really rate him. But his advice to me at the time was on social media, don't post sort of your big PB deadlift, so don't post all of this.

You're covered in chalk. It'll put off other women. If that is the client base that you want, And I actually understand what he was saying at the time because actually that was what it was like about 10 years ago. And I kind of took that advice and parked it and carried on as myself. And I'm glad that I did because I think it's attracted, you know, let's say your vibe attracts your tribe. And I think 10 years later it's all far more accessible. And I think at the time, like you say, it was very much tall, long and lean, you know, yoga, Pilates,

women doing strength training or anything of any intensity, just was frowned upon. So it was a difficult journey, I would say, professionally. But I think now where we are, we're really recognising that. And women are now celebrated. And I think we're celebrating it as well, not just for the reason of how we look in a bikini or in prep for a holiday.

It's now the benefits of life, not just longevity, but your quality of life. You know, I think more women are now waking up to the, you know, the fear of all. osteoporosis of dementia and Alzheimer's and we're not saying it's inevitable that it will never come if you strength train, but the odds are much lower in chronic diseases later in life if you put in the training now. And I think because women are more aware of that, it's like sod what we look like. We want to look after our bones and our joints and our brain.

Have you found when women come to you, that's a concern for any of them, like the longevity, not just how they look? Yeah, 100%. And I love this conversation because that is what's really most important. However, what's really difficult, I think, as the fitness industry to sell is that longer term, you know, you've got to work hard consistently for a long period of time. You both have strength trained for many, many years. So you know what you're doing in the gym is pretty repetitive. And actually when you're new to this, either the gym environment or strength training in particular, when you've come from a really hyperactive hips, you know, it's really fun and exciting. and you get that endorphin rush, it can feel very different.

And I think people are now starting to understand, actually, I just need to do the basics really well consistently to enable me to not just next week, but in 10 years' time to reap those benefits. But I think also we are human. We do want to look good naked. So I think there is a part of that that, you know, there is an aesthetic. And I always try and be really honest on my social media

that, like, if I was to ask you the question, if strength training didn't change how you looked, would you still do it? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. And when you think about it, I think I probably would because of all the reasons you described. But actually, we do want to look our best because we'll feel our best.

So I think it has to be a mixture. And I also think for me personally, my view of what looks good as a woman has evolved. I remember I was coaching in a group class in Chelsea many years ago. And I had a woman come up to me. She looked me up and down and she said, oh, it was the start of the class. She went, oh, I don't think this is for me.

and she pointed at me and said, because I don't want to look like you. Oh, wow. And I had to really bite my tongue at the time because I thought, actually, it's not her fault necessarily. It's how she's conditioned. She's afraid of muscle. That's society.

So I think I said something in between and I said, well, if you do look like me in an hour, we'll swap roles because you're not going to. And I think it's sort of this women are scared of looking bulky because society still says bulky isn't bad. There's another thing that also really I've been trying to work it and evolve around is that we always say

strength training won't make you bulky and we all know the reasons why but actually when we're saying that we're also perpetuating the fact that bulky is negative and what I want to really try and reframe is like I might be described as bulky to someone but I've never felt better and as long as I feel good

and I'm in that position where I feel great other women should also celebrate that because I've worked really hard. I've been banging biceps in the gym for about 10 years. So if I didn't look like I'd trained, I'd be upset. That's the thing. And the fear that, because I think women see women who are competing in bodybuilding and think if I go to the gym twice a week, I will look like that.

And it's like they won't. They won't look anything. Like you say, it's taking you 10 years to get those biceps, which are amazing, by the way. I'll keep looking at them thinking that's my goal. I'm not tensing at all. No. But it's just, it's the function of the body that I find so admirable in anyone who trains, because it is hard. And when I look at someone, male or female, and they're in, like, quote, unquote, shape or they have muscle mass, I literally think, I know that you're, you've put in the time, you've put in the effort, you've probably watched what you've eaten. You've, you've done a whole heap of things that are really, really difficult.

And I always applaud them for that because it doesn't happen overnight. and it's the small, consistent changes. You know, a lot, I've heard a woman say, it was on another podcast, she said, I'm terrified of the gym because I've never lifted in my life. And it was Dr. Vonda Wright. She said, do you have kids? And the woman said, yeah.

She said, how do you get your kids about? She said, well, I'll lift them. And she said, how do you put the car seat in the car? She said, well, I lift it. Yeah. She said, right. So you do. She said women lift every day,

either emotionally, physically, mentally, you lift. She said, so we take that, we put it on a gym floor. And the woman, within like two months, was like, I feel the best I've felt in 40 years. And it took eight weeks, twice a week. That was it. I think that's worth hearing and seeing more stories of this. Or especially, you know, I get, as a PT, get asked,

is it too late to start? And it's never too late to start. And I think as we're seeing more of this, people can see, they can relate a bit more. because back in the day, it was very much bro-science, bodybuilders or female bodybuilders at the time. And that's really all fitness looked like. Now we've got social media. We can see that actually, like you say, the rise of functional fitness training that we've seen,

it is for your everyday life. And I think as women, we should really celebrate just feeling really capable. And it's not just about strength training as well. It's also cardiovascular fitness, you know. Being able to run for the bus and actually make it is also a life. life skills. So I think when we look at the lens of the aesthetic of training in the gym is really historically how we've looked at it. You're right. We're looking at, you know, the buzzword, obviously, of the moment is longevity. You know, it's not just about how long you live, but the

quality of the life you live for as long as possible, not just for you, but for your families. So it's an exciting time. Let's take you back to basics. On this podcast, I can't remember which guessed it was, but I said that there are still women, many women, who find the gym floor an intimidating environment, especially where the squat racks tend to be, which tend to attract more men. Yes, there are women going into them, and I'm one of them, but generally, especially if you step outside major cities, they tend to attract more men. And then that, women are then intimidated, they feel like they're being judged. And I'm someone who's trained literally for 30 years and there's certain times a month where

my confidence is a bit low due to hormones and even I find it a bit intimidating and I know what I'm doing. So I can imagine women who have never done it before, have very little experience or even if they're trying to make that step from Les Mills body pump, which we've all done and it is brilliant. But that's very structured, you know, you're guided through every single move. So then have the confidence to go on to a gym floor and start constructing your own program and knowing what you're doing. What advice would you give them?

Yeah, first of all, I completely echo what you're saying. I think it is an intimidating space for everyone and anyone. And like you say, there can be times where you feel more confident in that space and others when you don't. So I just want to sort of share that. That's perfectly normal. I think, you know, I would always advocate if you can. I know it can be, you know, privilege financially. to invest in getting a professional, to get a PT to teach you.

Because I think we forget that it's actually a real skill. Lifting weights, it's not just pick it up and put it back down. Like there is a way of doing it. And I think also, you know, you can learn from a textbook or watch someone else. But if me and you did a squat together, we did a set of back squats, our squats would look completely different because, you know, of our lever lengths, our experience, etc. So I think it can be really challenging to just watch someone else.

And there's lots of advice sort of on the internet. You can follow along programs. But I do really think if you can that in-person feedback, especially when you're starting out, whether that's a strength-specific class. There are many gyms that do genuine strength well these days or a friend that can do it and that you can go and they can help teach you. Because, yeah, like I said, it isn't easy.

It's not just as easy as going in and squatting it. You need to build that confidence to have that reinforcement that what it feels like is correct for you. And are you on the kind of mindset whereby, obviously, strength training is clear you prioritize it and you advocate it for it. But there's lots of women who swear by like Pilates or yoga. And is your approach kind of anything is better than nothing?

Or is it at certain stages you have to, whether you like it or not, you need to strength train. Yeah, I think strength training is, yes, absolutely everyone should be strength training, yes. I think the conversation around yoga and Pilates, do I advocate both of those methods of movement? Absolutely. I think they both have their role. Do I think that something like Pilates, which I think is having its moment, I think people think that that's good enough. And I think Pilates is fantastic. It was sort of invented to help support rehabilitation and core stability and strength.

But on its own is not full body resistance training in the way that, you know, dumbbells, free weights and all the equipment does for you. So I think as a place to start, depending on your experience, Pilates and yoga is great. And if you love it, like I love it. I do Pilates. I've very much been in my Pilates era the last couple of years. But for me, I am experience in strength training. So the stimulus that Pilates would give me is not enough to elicit a positive response in the muscle. Because when we're strength training, what we have to remember, as you know, is we have to apply that progressive overload.

And Pilates as a practice, it's really difficult to apply that constant overload. And you'll get to a point where Pilates just doesn't do it anymore in terms of the strength development. So I think Pilates has its place, but it is not the resistance training that I would advocate for the general population, two, three times a week. Because I've seen a few things on social media recently of women showing pictures of themselves when they lifted weights. And genuinely saying,

I used to look like this. I used to be bulky. They didn't. They just used to look amazing, gorgeous and strong. But now I look like this. And then there's pictures of them doing with former Pilates. Yeah, it's like one to bat. Lean, yeah, barely a muscle perceptible.

And they're applauding this and celebrating this. And I think we are, as a culture, starting to celebrate smaller is better again. You have the emergence of GLP-1s, Hollywood actresses, seemingly disappearing before our eyes in their sizes. And I'm starting to see a worrying trend to smaller being better on social media, which is such a shame because I thought we'd made strides to move away from that. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think if you come back to the example of I used to lift weights and I look like this and now I look long and lean, which really irritates me that.

How do you get longer? I'm just going to say you can't. And I've always been five foot three and I've been doing for ages. So I need my money back from that. I didn't get longer. I think also what we have to remember is strength training is a stress. It can be intense. And I think if there's so much nuance to this.

but if you are strength training and you are, you know, maybe you can attest to this. In the days where you were doing real intense exercise, actually what's maybe not happening, I hear a lot of people talking about inflammation when it comes to going to Pilates and reducing inflammation, you have to enable yourself the time and space to recover from that stress that you're putting upon the body. It's not the stress that's the wrong thing. It's the fact that you haven't enabled yourself to recover from it. And that's due to life stress, your sleep, your nutrition, to enable the body to, I guess, look and feel its best.

And I think now we go to Pilates, yes, you're not stressing the muscle in a way. So maybe you don't have as much muscle mass as before. That's not a positive thing. As we talk earlier about as you age, we're losing muscle mass in our sleep as we get older. So we need to be stressing the body in the right way. But I also think Pilates is less intense. So I think some people are confusing that it's not the Pilates on its own. I think it's just you've given yourself.

a bit of time to recover and maybe you're not doing all the intense stuff. Yeah. Because less is more is working for me. Yes. Absolutely. Because what you alluded to then is that years ago,

eight years ago, nine years ago, I was doing too much. And then I had all the tests that I'm very fortunate enough to experience being the editor-in-chief of women's health. And I was told that my lactic acid levels were through the roof. I was told my inflammation levels were through the roof.

And these were at a medical clinic. and I was told that increased inflammation and latic acid can lead to life-limiting disease, cancer, etc. Because I was training like an athlete almost, but not recovering because it was, you know, I was going to these kind of high-intensity classes where you sprint and then go off and do squats and then get back on and sprint again.

And I used to think it was a badge of honour to almost vomit on the gym floor. And it's like, oh, yeah, I've really pushed myself. then. But actually I look better and feel better for lifting weights three or four times a week and around that doing low intensity. So walking on the stair stepper in the gym with a Netflix documentary on on level four or five, you know, barely, hardly breaking a sweat.

Yeah. But I look and feel better for that. Yeah. And it's just giving myself more rest. It's 100%. It's the recovery. And I love all of the place where we're at in the fitness industry now when we're talking about the everyday athlete and I think one of the things that has evolved so much over the last 10 years is access to training programs and for people to feel like they can train

like a professional athlete and what we must remember is we're not and I it's like yeah we you know that's not to limit anyone because I think you know whatever you want to do but we have to remember that like Usain Bolt isn't doesn't have a full time job and yeah probably as a chef Yeah, exactly.

Massage, physio every week. Exactly. So I think we want to train like a professional athlete. We don't have a life like a professional athlete. And actually when we think about as sort of mere mortals, what we actually need is to go back to the basics. And for general health, as you describe, some resistance training, progressively overloaded,

two or three times a week and some form of, you know, low level intensity for cardiovascular health, that's where it's at really for longevity. And as you describe, for you personally, you look, you feel like you look better. What about you Gemma? What's your training like? You train almost every day

and you say you don't feel yourself unless you train. So what does that look like? Well, I kind of, I don't weight train every day, but I do something every day. So my split at the minute is normally three heavy weight sessions. I've not trained today, but I'll probably do a bit of yoga before bed just because we've been sat a lot all day.

I will go for a nice walk in between tea. The other days, it can be an hour's dog walk As opposed to just half an hour I invested recently in And it was for when I travel the P-Volve Don't know if you've heard of the P-Volve And it's Literally, because I do a lot of travelling

Some hotel gyms, you'll know it's just a treadmill In a room, it's not a lot And it was an American kit And it's just basically It's resistance training But with bands and you have dumbbells and stuff in there and a slant board so you're essentially doing moves.

A lot of body weight stuff, but different angles of the body. So it's all about functional movements that you do day to day but with progressive overload. And I thought, this would be easier for me. And it was little things like working the deep muscle fibre, the ones that I've not worked in a long time. I did a course session the other day and it was a lot of planks because they do a postpartum one.

and I was literally trembling and I was thinking when I'm just knocking out my regular you know bicycle curls or crunches or whatever I'm not targeting these so that's been good and you can do anything

from 10 to 60 minutes you just choose but a bit like Pilates if I was to do that every single day I would eventually plateau I think it's more so in between the heavy sessions when I want to just have a good stretch

like with the Pilates the only time I've done Pilates was when I'm I was pregnant. Yeah. For the last three months of my pregnancy when I was literally,

I couldn't even see the barbell over my, underneath my belly because I got so big. I did some Pilates and I did like it but it was the mental switchoff I struggled with. You know, there was no loud music.

There was no grunting and that's what I realized I do prefer strength training. Yeah. But then when I went back to strength training, it was like being a beginner again after just three, four months of none. Obviously, I'd had a baby,

which is a massive impact on the body. But when I step away from something, in terms of you do need to recover. But if I had two months off strength training, my body would change. And it's the same for anyone listening if they did two months of strength training, the body would change,

which I think is a good thing. It adapts, isn't it, to how you treat it? Yeah. So I'd just like to keep doing something every day. So I don't know if that counts as recovering or not A long dog water It's very rare that I'll do a day where I do nothing at all And maybe that's what the problem is

Maybe I need to What's the problem though? You're in good shape, you feel good How you describe that is how I would relate to Very similar I think what you don't want to be doing Is the same thing every single day I think what you've described

Is a variety of intensities You're focusing on different muscle groups So actually you're enabling The different parts of your body To recover through Pilates is a variety fantastic, it's challenging, it's, you know, and don't get me wrong, Pilates is really hard.

If you're doing it properly, it's really challenging, but it won't develop the muscle mass, you know, full body muscle mass that you need from resistance training. You know, long dog walk, absolutely perfect. You know, hopefully it's a brisk walk and how fast your dog is. And it's up the hills. Yeah, exactly. And that's literally, for general health, that is what we want. And I think it's, when we're, like, focused on performance goals, that's when I think

the work that you need to do becomes a little bit unsustainable, but it sounds like within your life, balance. You've got a good balance. Where do you stand on with, because obviously when you said you see the girls with the image, I used to look like this and now I look like this. Obviously on Instagram this age, just switching from strength training to Pilates, the reality is they were probably eating a lot more when they were strength training because you do need to fuel.

And, you know, like on days today when we're sat back to back, I'm nowhere near as hungry as if I'd gone for a big strength session. Where do you stand on food and fueling? What advice do you give people when it comes to that? Because a lot of, like Claire said, a lot of women think it's eat less, move more, and then Bob's your uncle, you suddenly have the perfect physique. No, and I think within my scope as a personal trainer, you know, obviously my focus is really around, you know,

the appropriate movement, depending on your goals. But I think it is remiss of anyone to ignore probably the bigger impact. Like if someone had a big weight loss goal, I wouldn't be telling them to go and smash it in the gym five or six days a week. Actually, it's addressing your nutrition. So depending on your goal, the nutrition and the sleep and lifestyle element can be more important. I think if you are someone that does have performance goals, your fuel your nutrition is even more important. You know, obviously there's lots of talk around fasted training. If you're training early in the morning, it's so nuanced and circumstantial that you might say,

I can't eat anything in the morning because it makes it feel sick. Okay, don't eat in the morning. But I think we need to make sure that around our training, we need to fuel and be able to recover from it. Because, you know, I've got girlfriends that, you know, I've been doing this a while and they still say to me, oh, I've done this workout class. I'm not going to have any dinner because it'll stop the fat burning effect.

You know, so there is still that thought. And I think it does take a mindset shift to say, actually, I need to fuel. My nutrition is so important. whatever your goals, even if it is you want to be long and lean, which is absolutely fine, nutrition plays a really important part. Otherwise, you're just going to be unsustainable. And you'll either hit a burnout or actually you'll just feel crap in all of your workouts,

which doesn't feel great either. For muscle growth, you do need to have adequate protein, though, don't you? But not at the expense of carbs, which is what I think a lot of people do. I remember not so long ago, well, probably about five, seven years ago, The thing was that you had to drink your protein shake almost immediately have to finish your work. Within like a 10 minute window. You'd literally see people coming off the gym for all drinking their protein shake. That's since been discredited.

Yeah, yeah. You just need to, at some point in your 24 hours, have an adequate amount of protein to build muscle. Absolutely. But I also think, you know, if you've done some intense workout, you've depleted your body, actually, within a relatively close time frame, It is good to take on some carbohydrates and protein to kickstart the repair process. Because if you haven't got any energy or fuel, that's when obviously low energy states can be really detrimental to your progress because it's like we focus so much and putting the work in in the gym.

And then we forget the recovery part afterwards. So I think it is really important. I'm mostly vegetarian. So for me, I have to use a lot of supplementation in the form of protein powder. And yeah, it is really important. know, to get enough protein in our diets. It's got a number of benefits. But yeah, for muscle growth or muscle development, strength development,

and just for general health, you know, even protein helps with, you know, satiety. So like if you're helps your punger signals. So there's many, many reasons why. But no, we can debunk that. You don't have to have it within 10 minutes of your last bicep curl. It's sort of within that 20. Yeah, exactly. It's sort of, you know, I would direct, you know, within a 24-hour window,

as soon as your head hits the pillow, did I have enough fuel today across all the relevant macros? Yeah. We get a lot of questions from listeners about midlife, the midlife stage, strength training in midlife. Midledge spread. Midlet, yeah. Is it inevitable that you're going to gain weight in your 40s beyond?

Is it harder to build muscle at this stage in life? What if you are someone who has a lot? lifted weights before? Can you really action change in your 40s? It's an age group that you're in now as well. I know. It's just out of 30. We're all in it.

We're all in it. I'm really 50, mate, so. Wow. It's never too late. Look at Joan. What's that lady? Oh, Joan. Have you seen lifts?

Yeah. Look at Joan. She started in her 70s. Yeah, she looks incredible. But let's break it down then. So strength training. in your 40s, is it harder to build muscle in your 40s? I think it's harder in the fact that it's harder to recover, I would say.

Your body, you know, sadly as we get older, we know we're at risk of sarcopenia, we do lose muscle mass. So if you've arrived at 40 and your body composition doesn't have a lot of muscle already, yeah, you're starting as a beginner, but it's not impossible. I just think we need to take the mindset of let's not compare. hair, let's start where you're at, get in the gym and find what progressive overload looks like for you. And I do think later in life, it's not just the sort of the genetics. There's lots of things that you can impact later in life and improve, or the epigenetic development

of the training that we do in the gym and outside of the gym, but also the lifestyle of, you know, you've got kids to manage, you know, we can't spend all of our days in the gym, you know, maybe our sleep is impacted. And also, I know, I don't want to talk all about it. It's all about hormones, but yes, especially as women, our hormonal profile is different and it is challenging to be able to get that stimulus and get that response to grow muscle. So, yes, sadly, it probably is a little bit harder, but it's not impossible. And I think you just have to start where you're at and apply the progressive overload. So explain progressive overload. Yeah, so what we want to be seeing is, so in order for, when we're strength training, we're providing a stimulus.

I don't know, I'm pointing at my bicep here. Let's just use this as an example. Let's just use, I just wanted to really ensure that you'd seen them. You didn't tense them, though. No, I'm not tensing, it's embarrassing. You were getting a pump on beforehand, doing you, and the toilet? I did press ups. We did 30 press ups in the bathroom before I came in.

But what we're doing with strength training is, you know, we're contracting the muscle. We've got the eccentric, you know, the lengthening, and we've got the contractual phase. And we're providing a stimulus to that muscle. And what we want to be doing is providing a stimulus that is, challenging because actually we're ripping the muscle fibres and then we want to repair them, look after them to grow back to grow back stronger. So say I can, let's start with, let's take away from the biceps for now. Let's go for squats. Say you are starting out and you've never done

a squat before in your life. I'd like you to try and do three to four sets of just 10 air squats. You might tell me, that was really easy, Laura, come on. So I might add some external load. That external load, say I gave you a five kilo dumbbell. That's progressive. overloading it from the body weight position that we had before. What I'm looking for as a personal trainer from the body weight to the loaded is can you still hit that same range? Because range is really important. You know, you don't have to sit your ass down on the floor, but we know that range is important to recruit as many muscle fibres as possible. Can you still perform that squat with control? You know, does it feel

good? And how easy was it? So I guess from that point, you sort of establish what is your current, what can I do sort of three or four sets for 10 reps? And then over time, the progressive overload, is we want to increase the stimulus of that. And there's many ways we can do that. It doesn't have to just be adding weight. It can be slowing down the rep. You can do a pause at the end,

which we know is really challenging. You could do more reps. You could do more sets. You could do a single leg variation, which if you've ever done a Bulgarian split squat, you'll know they're absolutely bloody awful. But they're really changed. I actually, as I've sort of gone through my career as a piece,

I actually really have quite a strong bias towards single legwork. I think you can load them up much nicer, you know, rather than having the big barbell back squat. And actually, for people that want to do it at home, you can really load up some single legwork. So I think if you can do that with strong intent and then, you know, over time, you want to be increasing that external load because the muscle will adapt. And what it was easy a month ago, you know, you want to be able to give it more stimulus. And that's really what it is. muscle doesn't really know, your body doesn't know what's on that weight. I think also as women, we have to respect that it's not going to be a linear progress. You know, depending on where we're

at in our cycles, if you're a woman that still has a cycle, your hormonal profile will change every single day and you just might not feel very good on one day. It could be psychological. It could be physical. You could be under-recovered. So I think it's just overall, over a longer period of time, you want to try and see, how can I increase the stimulus and the load to progress? If anyone's unclear, a Bulgarian is a single leg lunge with your foot elevated at the back, isn't it, on a bench or a step of some description? Hell on earth is what is. And then you hold a weight in the leg that's elevated. So, yeah. We've put a description. So for anyone listening who says hasn't got the finances

or access to a gym but had a set of 5KGs and were like, I want biceps like you, but all I have is 5KGs. If they got to a point where 10 reps was easy, they could do slow tempo. Absolutely. Or they could do quicker, 20, like more, it could be, it's not just about the weight, is it?

There's things they can do. Exactly. You could do isometric holes. It's really around the mechanical tension of how much stress we're putting the muscle under. You know, the reality is at some point, you will outgrow the weight itself. You know, you can do some variations to make it more challenging

to put the muscle under more load and tension and hopefully we can celebrate, you know, graduating out of weights. But yes, absolutely. There's loads of things, depending on your goal, there's lots of things you could do. That's it with the gym though. I think when people are frightened to go into the gym, everyone's concentrating on themselves.

No one's really looking at you. And I always say to people who tell me they're frightened of the gym, when you go to the hairdressers, everyone in there is having the hair done. when you go to soft play everyone in there is with the kids doing the same thing when you go to the gym everyone's in there working on themselves so no one's really fussed about what it is you're doing

and up until every day up until now every day of our life we've probably done something for the first time be it learn to walk be it speak to someone on a first date be it text someone first you know we've all done that first thing and we've succeeded in it but for some reason when it comes to the gym it's still this element of and that's why I think it's brilliant you've got people like yourself who are

obviously you're an in-person PT but you can also PT from your platform on social media you know women can go to you for advice for help and it's from the comfort of their own living room in a non-threatening non-kind of overpowering way it's just brilliant that there's women like you doing it

and like yourself really because I think you can't be what you can't see And I think, you know, your show casing, you know, as a mother, you know, you juggle so many things in terms of your career, lots of people will look at you and think, well, if she can do it, you know, I can as well. And you said earlier, am I an advocate of something is always better than nothing? Absolutely. And I think you just need to start where you're at and remember, like you said, everyone was a beginner once. And if anyone is truly judging you for being a beginner, honestly, they're not worth your. It's like people who have a comment. in the Daily Mail comments and, you know, trolls, you just think, no, thank you.

Unless you're in the arena doing the same thing as me, you know, failing forward, I don't want to hear your opinion, please. And I know that's difficult to get your head around. But I do think you just put yourself in that environment, make yourself as comfortable as you can. I always say, you know, buy a new pair of trainers. That really helps to make you feel good or, you know, whatever that thing is. It's leggings for me. There you go.

Nice pair of leggings. Nice pair of leggings. There you go. But yeah, I just think genuinely. no one worth considering is actually watching you. Because they'll give you grief for doing it first, but then they'll be asking how you did it. 100%.

I've had that as well in my professional career. I was the only female PT in my gym, and I was filming myself, and I took a lot of flak. You know, what are you filming for? What are you filming yourself? And actually, all I wanted to do was showcase what I was doing because it enabled me to connect with other people because there wasn't a lot of access to women,

at that time. So yeah, I think, you know, we're now in a much more accepting place. And I just think, yeah, you've got to get started. So you wrote a training plan for the Woman's Health Collective app. I did. So for those listening are watching, if you become a member of Women's Health, the Women's Health Collective, you get full access to our app, which has a growing library of training plans.

And Gemma's own training plan is on there that your training. created that was a year ago and I used that a lot and then Laura did one more recently what's the name of your training plan on there so the plan that I created is called build and burn and it's a as we've been talking about progressive overload actually you get the opportunity to progressively overload that plan through the through the weeks I'm very much an advocate of you know making sure that you're nailing the basics so you know we're going to be doing all the different movement patterns that are important a squat pattern a hinge pattern so you're working both anterior, posterior, upper body, lower body.

It's a really well-balanced programme that genuinely I would do myself. And again, it's not a specific movement that's, you know, good for beginners or not necessarily. You select a weight that's right for you. We've got rep ranges in there and it's a really effective workout that I would keep going back to. And it's well thought through, isn't it? Because I've been guilty in the past of doing sporadic strength. training. You know, one week I'll go in and do this and then the follow we're going to do something different and you're not going to make progress with that approach are you? Something more structured is going to achieve results. Absolutely. And I also think from like a mental perspective, we're all so busy. I love having a program to follow because we've got enough decisions to make in our days. So just take that out of the equation and now I've got this program on any given day. You've got the whole plan there and you can go back to it. And also, you know, if these movements are new to you, the first time use this as an opportunity just to learn how does it feel um you know talk to talk to

your friends do it with some friends but yeah just follow the program and and learn and move on with the weights where you can what advice do you give to any of your clients who i get when me message me saying they've started training they've been feeling amazing but something's happened or they've gone through a breakup or you know they've something's happened and they're off the wagon they've They've let it all go and they feel like everything they've done has just been down the drain because of something that's happened in life and then struggling.

Or even like, you remember the term of like a cheat day? I mean, the term cheat day for me, I never, I always used to think that was like giving a recovering alcoholic telling them to get pissed one day a week. If someone's got, you know, issues with food, telling them one day a week to binge on whatever they want is not going to help long term. How do you deal with women who,

beat themselves up for, you know, life getting in the way and them stopping, eating and training how they want to. Yeah, I mean, it happens all the time. I mean, I'm not immune to it as well. I've definitely had periods in my life where I've, I wouldn't necessarily describe it as falling off the wagon, but I completely understand what people are referring to because I think we think psychologically it has to be this all or nothing.

You know, we see social media, oh God, everyone's training all the time. Everyone's P-Bing every weekend. Everyone's in great shape. And I think it's getting better, but people don't really understand. the reality of this has to be sustainable and life's going to happen. From a science perspective, yes, if you stop training and you're not progressively overloading in your strength training or you stop doing, participating in cardiovascular fitness, yes,

you will start to lose some gains. But I think we have to sort of take it as it's just a pause and we can go back and not feeling ashamed or having any, you know, self-confidence issues attached to. maybe I'm not going to be lifting the weight that I was. We talk about it as well and you say, I'm only lifting this now and you sort of frame it negatively. To someone else, back squatting 50 kilos is unbelievable. So I think we'll try not to compare and just always meet yourself where you're at

and just try and be kind to yourself and know that, yeah, of course, if you haven't been training, your body will sort of decondition, but it still will remember the movement patterns. And actually I think you'll get back to where you want to be quicker. than you think. Because is muscle memory a real thing? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And I think, like I said, going back to it, it's like there, lifting is also a skill element and there's a confidence element. And there's sort of the neural connection to being able to lift and recruiting the muscle fibres. And it's almost like you're turning off like a, you know, a set of light switches. You know, let's talk about, I feel's a bit mad to refer to this. But through COVID, a lot of the people that I was training in the gym, they didn't have access to the 100 kilos on the rack.

So yes, over time when they're only working with, you know, less weight at home, they will be slightly deconditioned. But as soon as they're back in the gym, if you can start to over. You'll be back. And yeah, like I say, I'm really open about there's been times in my life where I've gone through things. And I had a bit of a traumatic time a couple of years ago. And my body was so stressed.

I couldn't do any of the intense exercise. I couldn't do it. you know, medically, I was advised just to go for walks and Pilates. So I was having a hot girl summer sort of. I was just doing Pilates and Hot Girl Walk. But for me, that was really difficult because I was used to slinging weights all over the place. But I just had to respect where my body was at, whatever it's happened in life, take a pause and know that you've got the ability to get back there.

It just takes time, unfortunately. You've got a big online presence as Laura Biceps. Yeah. Biceps by name, biceps by nature. And on there, you are also open about other aspects of your personal life. And one of them quite recently was that you chose to go through the egg freezing process. Yeah. How did that impact you emotionally and physically?

Yeah, it's really hard. I've got mad respect for, you know, egg freezing is the first part of obviously an IVF journey. So you go through all of the synthetic hormones and I guess just to take it back to it. Why did I even, why did I even do that? Through a life experience where I think I thought life was going at a different way, it turned out it wasn't, turned out it was the best thing for me anyway, as sometimes we always find out with these things. And I'll be really honest, I've never really wanted to be,

I've never thought about I'm desperate to be a mother. I don't know. Did you think that? No. No, no, definitely not. So it's never been something, I know some of my friends are like, my life's purpose is to be a mother and that's fantastic. I've never felt that way.

But in a relationship, I thought I wanted to be. And then when that wasn't there anymore, I thought, okay, for coming up, you know, time is ticking. And I think that's such a big thing for women, you know, that time is ticking. I think it's, you know, we're in the era where, you know, Courtney Kardashians had a baby. What's she, 45? Yeah. My friends, she's pregnant. I was with yesterday.

She's got five weeks left and she's 42. Yeah. Amazing. So I think, you know, women are having children. They're conceiving later in life. So it's just one of those things that I never really thought about it until one of my close, one of my best girlfriends, she did her egg freezing and it like flicked a switch. I was like, oh my God, I need to do it.

And I didn't really want it for any specific outcome. But so I went through the process and I've trained hundreds of women going through this pre-postnatal. And I thought I knew. But until you actually physically go through it and the process and the hormones and how your body feels and like you were saying mentally, God, I felt awful. Absolutely awful, yeah, because you're injecting yourself. Every day, it's about 14 days until you have the retrieval. And I remember sat in the hospital and the nurse said to me,

there will become a time where you won't want to go to the gym through this process. And I thought, okay, love, you don't know me, but okay, thank you so much. And that time did come. Wow. I felt absolutely crap. And I thought, God, if, you know, yeah, to get me out of the gym, it's really got to take something. So it was an amazing process.

I'm really glad I did it. A hugely empowering. And I think for me, the reasons why I did it was to understand a bit more about my own personal fertility, not because I wanted something immediately, but sort of, I don't know, let's describe it as hedging your bets as a maybe a future option. Because you never know. But what I learned throughout it, you know, no cycle is the same. And the things that impact your fertility as a woman, you know, I think we need to understand more about this. Because the choices that we're making, as we've just talked about nutritionally,

style in the gym, you know, this all has a huge impact on our, on our fertility. So that was, that was a huge learning for me. But also the statistics around it is something like just over 90% of women, they don't regret egg freezing, only around 20% of women actually go on to use them. Right. So I think it's this thing that society sort of perpetuates the biological clock of a woman. We want to feel in control sort of in. It's your choice down the line that's not been taken from you due to perimenopause, menopause. Exactly. It's if you do decide down the line either with someone or on your own, that choice is

yours and it's been done. And if you don't, then that's okay. But it's like you say, being in control rather than someone sitting you down saying, unfortunately there's no eggs left because you're in menopause, you'll be like, oh, okay. Yeah. You know, you've been in control of the situation. Yeah, I think so. I'm really glad I did it.

But yeah, it was an emotional thing to do. And for me personally, like, I'm so, I feel like I'm, you know, a bit invincible physically. And that was probably one of the moments in life where I've never felt so vulnerable because there's nothing you can do. It's not, I can't over, I can't train it to be successful. It just, and that was the one, you know, we talk about being, you know, doing less and reducing inflammation and stress in the body. That was the first time that I really had to, had to do that. And doing nothing was my training for the day, which is really hard. And what made you talk about it so openly on social media?

Yeah, I actually wasn't going to. I was actually going to tell no one because I'll be really honest with you. What I was really worried about, given my age, because you never, obviously I'm geriatric, plus 35, your geriatist class as a geriatric pregnancy or whatever. And, yeah, I've never been told more because of your age, X, Y, Z. So I actually felt, like I said, very vulnerable about it. And I thought, well, the end result could be, I've got nothing. And I think there is a bit of shame attached to that.

You know, if we think about we're living in the times of the manosphere now where apparently the woman's only role is to conceive and clean and do the housework. But it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, if I'd spoken about it, would I then have had to have shared, right, well, I've got no eggs. You know, that's pretty brutal. But then I thought, no, actually, this isn't very Laura Biceps of you because I think if I can share something that is personal to me and if it helps one other person, that's worth it for me.

So then I started talking about it before I'd got to the end. And honestly, I felt it was a bit personally, I felt personally attacked. I got more messages about that than I did about sort of fitness at the time because it's just people don't talk about it, I think. And I think me being open as someone who is in the gym, I try and look after myself, sort of saying, I'm not married, I'm 40, this is really nerve-wracking for me. And actually, it was relatively successful.

So, yeah, I think I should have gone on some sort of fertility affiliate program because I've put a lot of people through it. But, yeah, I think it's just, you know, I love science and data. and I just think the more that I can know about myself, the more informed I am to make choices. So yeah, I just thought it was important for me to share it if I can help someone. I will.

You probably helped loads of people because I think things like egg freezing and perimenopause, it was the fact that it used to be known as the change and women used to hide away and it was like, oh, she's going through the change. I like to call it the transition where nothing's changed. It's just your body's doing something different.

differently now. It's like walking into the same house, but it's got a new floor. That's it. It's just adapting to the next phase of your life. And it shouldn't be something we hide. I mean, men like need to know about these things because they either live with the woman. They've got a more, more a sister or a partner, you know, and ultimately they're affected by it as well. Because it is going to happen. If we're all lucky enough to live that long, we will all get to paramedin. So I think the more people who speak about choices that you make maybe up to that stage for what reasons, you'll be helping loads of women. Yeah. And I think also it's like not a final destination.

You know, we talk about perimenopause and menopause. Yes, it is a transitional phase. But there's so many things if we just understood what we have access to to try and limit some of the symptoms. Because some of the symptoms, you know, you could mistake, you know, for a bad hangover sometimes. or, you know, a hormonal cycle, you know, people suffer in various ways with sort of their periods. So I think it's, yeah, it's just one of those things where it's so individual. But I think, as always, the more we talk about it, the more we understand, the more we advocate for our own personal circumstances, you know,

the less shame that there is attached to all of this. I just blame every ailment on the perimenopause now. Yeah, it's easier, isn't it? Oh, I feel sick as to menopause, yeah. Peres. Yeah, forever fun you do. Yeah. Looking forward, Laura, what do you hope the future conversation around women and strength looks like?

I think, well, as I've seen in the last 10 years, I think women are now more empowered than ever to strength train. I think I guess what I've also seen is there's lots of, I'm talking about social media, there's lots of unqualified sources of information, let's call. call it. And I think sometimes for people, when you have a big following and you say, this works for me, you should, I think sometimes we fall foul to, you know, listening to that advice. So I think the future for strength training, it's, it's about understanding actually what are the basics that we've just described. It's not always sexy and fun and, you know, flying endorphins everywhere. It's about doing the work that's right to enable you to have the best, you know, longevity of

life, quality of life, to have a strong body composition to help us as we age. As we know, it's a real privilege. So I think I would hope, you know, just more information that is of a solid source, because there's a lot of shit out there. And I always try and say to people, when they come to me and they say, I've seen this on the internet, is this good? And I say, do you like it? Does it work? Like, are you enjoying it? Do you feel good? Well, then I can't really tell you stop doing it. So I think it's about finding the right balance between scientifically what we know is right for women's bodies, but also when we talk about evidence-based approaches, evidence of my own personal, how do I feel, is also really important. So I would never,

if I, if I ever hear someone say something is black and white, it's a bit of a red flag for me as a PT because, well, it depends. It depends on the person. It depends on the person. It depends what you're trying to do it depends what the context of your life is so i think the future of of strength training for women is really bright i think it's never it's never been a better time to be a woman in sport and fitness you know if we look about the sporting arena you know everyone watches women's sport now the the ratings are incredible and even in professional sports teams so like i used to play football as a kid when in under 15s um i was in the at chelsea girls we didn't do any strength training. No one talked about it. And, you know, left right and centre in the team,

everyone's ping in their ACLs. So I think it's just, it's not just strength training later in life, but also through like schools. I think we shouldn't be afraid to get our kids moving and training. I know Nell's going to be a future lioness goalkeeper, right? Well, she's actually more of a cricketer these days. Oh, she moved to cricket. Yeah, she's playing for Hampshire cricket now. So, yeah, yeah, but bless her, she does, she uses my weight at home. She picks up the, the little ones, the two's in the fours and copies me. And I know Maya goes in the gym with you, doesn't she? She copies you.

She's obsessed with the gym. But I think for young girls as well, what I love at the minute is the acceptance of different body shapes and different body capabilities. Like we're not all Amazonian. We're not all five foot three. We're not all six foot two. And when we had the privilege of interview in the England rugby girls, didn't we before an England netball game.

and they were all built extremely different. There was one of them, she looked incredible. She was like, she was ripped, massively ripped. And she was like, my job is to stop people running through me. And then, I forgot, I named the lady in the middle, she was ripped, but she was tall. She was more petite. And she was like, my job's to run through. And all different shapes and sizes, but all ways.

working in one team with a different role because of the different shapes and sizes. It wasn't, oh, she's too bulky, she's off the team, she's too small, she's not strong enough. It was regardless of their build, they each had a specific role. And that's what I love about it. Like you can line all the kids up in Mears class and be like, you will all do something incredible because of your body. Regardless of your shape, size, it will be used for something.

And that's what I love about it now. I hope that message they have that, that they don't all have to be, you know, a certain size to achieve what they want. Totally. But I also think like just strength for whatever it is you're going, you know, we're in a time now where running, running clubs everywhere and everyone's getting into running.

It's amazing. But we're forgetting that it's not a, you're either do running or you do strength training. Strength training is the foundation, I believe, for everything. Yeah. That you're doing. So obviously you both love running. No.

We both hate running, don't we? No. I've been told it works. Someone's doing a 10k soon. Yeah. And like you said, Gork and the other half, he keeps telling me my strength training will benefit my running. It will. And my running will in turn help with this,

like they feed each other. It's like, why box yourself into just all I do is strength train? No. You do a lot of functional fitness. It's prioritising strength training, which will filter with everything else. But I won't remember that on Wednesday when I'm running. I'll be cursing him when I'm running.

You've got a casual fire. casual 5K, yeah. Easy, you've got on your plan, isn't it? An easy 5K. Little 5K is easy. Right, before we let you go, Laura, we have some quick fire questions. Ready. So, go on.

Number one, we're coming to your house for tea tonight. Yeah. What are you going to make us? We're going out. Oh, nice. No, I'm terrible cook. You don't want to eat anything I've made. Where are we going then?

Where should we go? Let's go to Dishume. Do you like to show? I do like Dishu. Oh, but a curry, yeah. Let's go for a curry. Love a curry. We'll do some push-ups before.

We'll do a couple of squats and push-ups and we'll go out for dinner. Lovely. I like, is it called Takadal when it's lentils? Lentals and spinach. Nice. Love curry. Sounds good. You go into a desert island for one year.

What are you going to take? One year. Am I with anyone? It's just me? It's just you. Oh, terrible chat for one year. I'm going to take my iPhone so that I can watch, I can just watch various series.

and listen to podcasts for one year. God, that's really a terrible commitment, isn't it? One year? One year? There's a podcast called Just as Well. I'll listen to that for a year. Jesse Jay said she would take a dildo. No, vibrator, she said.

I think a dilder is a different thing to vibrate. She was going to take a vibrator. What's the difference between a dildo vibrating? Isn't it a vibrates? No, a vibrator goes in you, doesn't it? No, a dildo goes in you. Yeah, dildo is like... This has taken a turn.

This is not doesn't move, does it? It's not like battery operated. Why am I holding my hand like that? I don't know. You're holding it like, should I move on? Let's zoom in. For the rest of your life, you can only either have coffee or wine. Which one are you going for?

100% coffee. I don't mean to sound like a, you know, a fitness keynote. But yeah, I don't really drink. So yeah, coffee for me gets me out of bed in the morning. So yeah. What was the last thing that made you barely laugh? What was the last thing? Part of me talking about dildoes and vibrators.

holding in a hand like this. Yeah, the hand motion. It's quite big. That hand motion, crack. I'll never be able to unsee that. Yeah. My, do you know what? I went to see, I went to see my mumsy yesterday.

She's in early 70s and she, she shouldn't really, she's very diabetic, but she ordered a creme brulee from the restaurant and they set it on fire and it took about two minutes. minutes for the fire to, and so I was just sat there, she was watching the fire go out, and she kept trying, she kept trying to blow it out. And it was just one of those moments where, if I'm really honest, without getting too deep, it's one of those moments I was looking over it and I thought, I feel so lucky that I was able. She's, she's so funny. She doesn't realize how funny she is, but she was trying to blow it out and she wasn't allowed

and she looked like a naughty school trial. Yeah, because she's diabetic. She's like, it's her one chance. So, yeah, that was literally yesterday I remember. And lastly, what's the one thing someone can do to make themselves feel a bit better from today? Do you know what? I think we need to as a society, especially as women, we should, and I'm just going to say this to myself, stop being so hard on ourselves.

I think we really always feel like we've got to get things perfect or, you know, comparing, keeping up with the neighbours or whatever that is, whoever that is that you're following. and I think life gets so much more enjoyable when you just do what you're doing and focus on that and try and find the moments of joy because we do a lot, you know, we work hard, we're stressed all the time and I think just to give ourselves a bit of a break sometimes

because actually I think we're doing all right. Oh, that's a good note to end it on. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I enjoy. Thank you. Thank you so much.