Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - Meet the World’s Best Rugby Player – Ellie Kildunne on Changing the Game

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

Ellie Kildunne is officially the best women’s rugby player in the world but her journey from playing with the boys in Yorkshire to leading England’s Red Roses is anything but ordinary. In this inspiring conversation, Ellie opens up about chasing World Cup glory, training around her hormone cycle, smashing stereotypes about women’s strength, and why she believes pressure is a privilege. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can get whatever you want in this world. But if you're a doer, you'll get it. I would like to be known as someone who's a doer. If I want it, I get it. And there's no way that I'm not, because I'll keep on going until I get that thing that I want because you can feel it inside you. There's no failure then, I don't think.

If you have that attitude, there isn't a failure because you just try a different route. Yeah. I think the failure is when you stop trying. Hello, I'm Gemma Hackinson. And I'm Claire Sanderson, the editor-in-chief of woman's health. And welcome to Jess as well. Today we caught up with Ellie Kildun.

And honestly, she's literally the best rugby player in the world. She's been crowned. that title, hasn't she? She has been crowned at 25. And she, it was besposed upon her at a very glamorous ceremony in Monaco last year. So she's 25, she's from Yorkshire, yet she is officially the best rugby player in the world. But you love your rugby, don't you? I do. But you can tell by my accent that Ellie playing for England and the red roses, is this the wrong colour shirt for me. I'm a, I'm a Wales fan, although I passionately support women's

sport because we are knee-deep in the summer of women's sport at the moment. We've had the lionesses, the Euros, we've now got the Women's Rugby World Cup, we've got the cricket next month. And I love the fact that these tournaments and games are attracting packed stadiums. I'm here

for it because it wasn't happening even three, four, five years ago. I've seen a huge change during my time of Women's Health. I've been at the brand for eight years. And when I first joined, women's sport was not on mainstream TV and they were playing in front of middle school crowds. But we're now at a point where many of these athletes are fully professional. Yes, they're not earning the money that their male counterparts are and

hopefully that's something that will even out. But Ellie is lucky because she plays for the Red Roses and they have been fully professional for some time and therefore are the team to beat in this rugby world cap. They narrowly Mr. Winning it four years ago against New Zealand. New Zealand are their main competitors again this year. And dare I say it, I will be cheering on England. But do not tell my family in the South Wales valleys. No, we will. We'll keep that quiet. But she also spoke about the effects training has. She went into the female homo cycle and how, you know, being lucky enough to be a professional. There is funding within her training camp, isn't there? There's nutritionists, there's experts.

and she shared all that with us. She also shared what she likes to do away from rugby. Me and you were quite surprised that it involved tattooing without actually being a tattooist. Yeah, you need to listen to that. It took herself off guard of it, didn't it? Hopefully you guys enjoy this episode.

So our next guest has been crowned the world's best rugby player. She's one of the most decorated players of all time and she is still just only 25. Ellie Kill Dunn is a sporting superstar who's hoping to help England win this month's Women's Rugby World Cup. Come on with the Red Roses. But what does it take to reign supreme?

In a tough sport that takes no prisoners. Let's catch up with Ellie and find out. Ellie, thank you for joining us. Welcome. Let's go back to the beginning. You grew up in Yorkshire. And I believe you started playing rugby when you were six, seven, six. And you played with the lads until you were 12.

Is that right? Yeah, so I played... It was like 12. I'm playing with the boys, absolutely loved it. You know, when you look back on things and you can say, oh, didn't get this, didn't get that. It didn't matter at that point. I just enjoyed having a boy in my hand,

and I was playing with the boys, playing with my friends. But yeah, absolutely loved it as soon as I started. I was playing both codes until about that age. And yeah, it's definitely part of my story now that, you know, I spent a long time in a team full of people that didn't look like me because they were a different gender. And what made you want to, at age six, what made you say, like, I want to play rugby? I mean, I think it's brill for a girl.

You hear about girls now, there's been a big, you know, girls need to play football. We've had the lionesses. So I think it's great, like yourself, for rugby. What made you decide that? It's a funny one because, you know, my household's not a rugby household growing up. I've got a younger brother, but no one played rugby in the house. And where I grew up, I only had two sets of neighbours, so I had two girls who were very girl girls. and then two boys, but naturally having a brother,

we always played out playing football, board dogs charged, tig, whatever. And one day the two boys were going down to rugby training, so my brother was like, oh, I'll tag along with them. And I couldn't really think of any games to play on my own. So I just remember having this toss up in my head of, oh, do I play rugby or do I start the drums? I can confirm I still don't play the drums.

But I don't know why I just had this thing, and I think it's that I just wanted to do something a little bit, different and yeah it just went down with them and I think that was for a league team so this was Keithway Albion and then by the next day I was I joined the union side as well so I was playing both codes within my first weekend of picking up a rugby ball but yeah I just I loved the competitiveness I loved that you know I was just playing out essentially just with more people and and made some really great friends and teammates and memories throughout the years but yeah it was It was like a bit of a love bug.

I'd just got it straight away. I was like, this is where I meant to be now. Probably tell about my accent that I'm a rugby union fan, although it may be a different kind of shirt to what you wear. So when did Dick click, when you think I'm pretty good at this? I can make a go with this and maybe turn it into something more than a hobby?

I think it's weird because as I was growing up, women's rugby wasn't that accessible, so you couldn't really watch it on television. I watched a lot of football. again, the men's football, not the women's, because it wasn't visible. So I never really knew that it was a pathway for me to go down and that it could be my job, essentially, or it could be playing for England that I could dream to do.

I just played it because I just loved doing it. And I was pretty good at it. I scored loads of tries. But it was when I was 15, so I was already part of the pathway playing for my county and my division, but still didn't have a clue where it could go to, just wanted to play for as long as I can. And I got invited to a tournament called Sainsbury School Games was what it was called at the time for like a year above.

And when I went there, it was all girls playing and it was like a multi-sport event. So for me at the time, I remember thinking this is like the Olympics. This is my idea of the Olympics, but I'm 15. And you could go watch the table tennis or the athletics and then you come back and you play the rugby. And the moment it was was I was in the changing rooms and it was in this big marquee. And it was like makeshift rooms with like big curtains and stuff. And we were like competing with the music on speakers, like the different teams who could like outplay the other team.

And then we'd go out and play rugby and these girls were really, really good. And I kept thinking, where do they go? Because there's not that many girls playing up at home. I was struggling to find a women's team. And then the girls' teams, I was part of that we were probably at different levels at that point. because they were just getting into rugby and I'd spent since I was six,

like said, playing and just chucking a ball about. And I kept asking them, like, where do you go? And they all kept on saying, oh, we go to Harpry, we go to Harpry. Oh, hmm, this Harpry place sounds quite good. Where is it? Gloucester. I thought, oh, this is going to be taking some convincing

to tell my mum that at 16, I want to move out and move down to Gloucester. But after, you know, probably many arguments and tears, I managed to get the green light. And I went down to Gloucester. And that was really the first time that I thought, yeah, this could be something now because, I mean, I've committed. I've moved out of the house.

I'm going to have to take it somewhere. And in my first year of Harprey, I kind of got brought in as a development player. It was a bit of a weird because I was going into the England Sevens training, but I wasn't old enough to do all of the training because I was only 16 and you had to be 18 to do contact with women. essentially. And then in my second year of Harbury, I got my first England cap. So it was, yeah, it was super accelerated. And, you know, up until getting my first cap, I didn't know that it could

be like a job, your profession. I didn't know people would turn up to games. I had no idea. It wasn't the reason that I played. The reason I played was because I loved it and being good at something also helps you love something and it brought me a lot of happiness. So, yeah. And with the training at Hartbury, I imagine it. I mean, it's not like this at all, but I imagine it is like a bit like Hogwarts. Everyone's there doing something they love, do you know what I mean? It is like that, yeah.

It's kind of like to be around other women who have the same passion as you, the same, you know, capabilities. Was it not a shock because obviously you're an athlete, but before you became a pro athlete, I imagine the training, the nutrition, the sleep. It all has to be not regulated to the point you have to do this, this and this. But there's a lot to it. isn't there, I assume?

Definitely. I mean, it was a shock because when I went to Hartbury, I was playing for Gloucester, so I straight away was into the senior team. And up until that point, you know, I didn't gym. I just played rugby, played football, did athletics at school. I didn't really gym, and I could get away with it.

But then when I went to, you know, the senior side, I realized I could not get away with it because I was getting hit hard by some of these girls. Oh, God, a dummy and go. do it anymore. Yeah. And I need to build muscle and become, you know, really diligent in the gym and something that I had no idea how to.

I wasn't very good at it either. I wasn't very strong. And, you know, feeding back to what I said about, you do something when you're good at it, you carry on love and it's easy to do. The gym was never easy for me because I was just so much weaker than everyone else. So, yeah, that was kind of a shock to the system. and Hartprey, you're at college essentially. So, you know, pinch yourself with how professional you are.

You get taught, you know, the rights and wrongs, but the end of the day, you're still a teenager and you're still going to have a party with your friends. And I was studying for my A-levels at the same time, so I had to do a lot of study and balance a lot of things, moving away from home relationships and friendships. You know, I had to try balance missing my friends, wanting to see them, but having to sacrifice,

going to see them to do a training. session or a game and I remember going to my prom and I couldn't go to very lakeside a tournament the next day. So that was probably the shock to the system. But the major one was just having to be physically fit because running I was always very good at and that's kind of my thing that I know I'm going to be good at running. But the gym and being strong and getting my nutrition right is something that till the day I retire will have to always be working on it because it's the thing that probably go straight away if I don't put the time into it. By the seven-time world's best leisure airline champions, Air Transat.

Mine's the opposite. Strength training for me, functional fitness. I do it till the cows come on, running. Oh, I hate it. Oh, I hate running. I'd hate running if, I don't get me wrong. There's some running I don't like. I've been, we're home training at the moment this week, and you got to go on a pitch.

And yesterday it was literally 100-meter run, 50-meter walk, 200-meter. It was boring. It was so for about 40 minutes. Put a ball in my hand and get me. I will easily do 10K because I'm just like chucking it, kicking it, doing whatever. You wear the tracker, the one that looks like a sports bra thing. Yeah, sports bra thing. Yeah, sports pride goes in your back. So you have an idea of, you know, how much you're doing, how fast you're going. So they can tell you training going through the week to get it right. But tell you what the thing is, is like with the gym at that age, that was a shock. And I don't. didn't like it, but I've had to learn to love it. And there's certain exercises, I hate, I hate bench press, I hate chin-ups, but there's some exercises I love because I've become really strong in it, and I have to be strong, otherwise essentially I'm going to get hurt. It's a discipline, isn't it, that's required.

We were talking earlier, weren't we? Because there's some days that, even a pro-athlete, you can't be arse. And I think especially for women as well, because we have our hormone cycles, you know, there's some whatever phase you're right in your cycle no matter if you've got to go out and play a game you like I just want to watch Netflix with a chocolate bar it's this time how do you overcome those days like what what happens I suppose it's nice being around other women yeah I think having open conversations firstly um and we have um like a wellness form that we right in the morning when we're in camp and you say if you're menstruating or if you think it's going to impact your

training that day and fortunately I don't really struggle with that type of thing. I might feel a little bit rubbish. But for me, it's more I wouldn't want to miss a day's training because I feel like I want to be in bed and watching Netflix as much so I want to do it. It's not just me that I don't just need to do it. The team needs me to do it. So that mental battle, I have to overcome it.

Because imagine a World Cup final. And I go, I'm on my period actually. I'm going to go. I'll skip it. Yeah, I'm going to. So I might as well, you know, train myself to. to be all right with it, it's not going to stop me training. Of course, there's complications and obviously a lot of research going in with the types of injuries

you can get depending on where you are in your cycle. Yeah, ACLs. And that's really cool that that research is coming in. We're getting taught about it in camp. You know, we've got physios and nutritionists and doctors that come in and teaches about how can you get the best out of your cycle depending on where you are. Because there's certain times that you can actually lift heavier because of where you are. So you might as well go for a P.

you might as well really push yourself in the gym in that time because you'll make the gains that in a week you probably won't be able to make because you're in a different part of your cycle. Which thing's brilliant that it's been recognised that women's genetics, women's bodies are very different to men's, but that doesn't mean that it's any worse just because you've got a time in the month. That means that you actually can benefit in ways that men probably can't and we just need to use that as almost like a super tool

to gain advantages where we can. And that education is very important. important. Yeah, we had Lucy Bronze on the podcast recently and she said exactly that. They're using the health tech data to inform them of when, which, what time of the month she describes as her superpower, that where she can go for it, where she can lift heavy. But as you mentioned, you're part of a team and rugby is the ultimate team sport, I think, far and above other sports that you have to gel as a team. If you understand the game, you were only going to win that game by working as a team. Yes, there's the Stardust who people scored the tries.

But there's so much needs to happen to get the player up to the tri-line. So the fact that you can do things like tracking your health data and have all that information in your arsenal is a privilege that you have now that the game is fully professional, but that wasn't always the case. And fairly recently, female rugby, women's rugby, were having to hold down day jobs and train. But you're lucky now that the Red Roses are fully professional

to allow you to train at your full intensity. Yeah, I mean, there's still a way to go. like you said, a few years ago, it wasn't fully professional. And, you know, you can definitely see the benefits of being in a setup that is professional. There's, you know, internationally, there's still many teams that are semi-professional. And our league in England is semi-professional. So there is girls that are doing a 9-to-5 job and then coming straight to training. We do train, because obviously I'm one of the Red Roses, I'm professional.

But we train from 1 o'clock in the afternoon to 9 o'clock at night so that we can train. around, you know, people that are finishing their nursing job and then come in and getting changing, trying to get a gym session, and again, going back into it, this isn't because people want more money to, you know, go to fancy restaurants or whatever. We want in England, and obviously the other countries that are not professional as well, I don't want one of my teammates to have to finish a teaching job, race over to training, decide whether they should eat their dinner or go to a gym session. to make themselves fitter, healthier, like we've already spoken about,

before doing the team session in the night. They shouldn't have to be like that because we're expected to play high-level sports, contact sports, and to avoid injury, to take the game to the next level to make it professional throughout, to make sure that it's not just the Red Roses that are professional. It is the whole of England, but also the whole of international rugby anyway.

Investment needs to be put into it, and there is still a way to go, but we have opportunity in front of us to keep on pushing for that to show, to showcase what women's rugby is about and what female athletes are about. And hopefully from off the back of a home walk up, that's where people actually see that opportunity and grab it with both hands. Do you feel, obviously, like you said then, the responsibility that you've all got, do you feel, because there'll be so many young girls looking up to you,

inspired by you, wanting to be the next version of you, Do you ever feel, I hate the term role model because that in itself is a pressure but do you ever feel pressure from external you know everyone outside saying you have to be a specific level especially after being the best player in the world, the world, yeah, in the whole world.

I think since getting that award, yeah, it's been something that I'm still trying to navigate because yes there is expectations you know, the type of player that I am Fortunately, I do score a lot of tries, and that's just because of the position and most part of fantastic teams, like said, I wouldn't get across the tri-line if it wasn't for them. But people expect me to score, and if I don't score, people say, you haven't had a good game, not people on my team, externally, you haven't had a good game just because I haven't scored. But I also really love the pressure, try to love the pressure, because I know it's very cliche to say, but pressure is a privilege. if you don't have pressure, firstly you don't care about enough,

but also other people don't care about what you're doing enough. So to be in a position where people have got an expectation on me to, not just me, but as I think the red roses as well, like people expect us to do well. It's only because of the work that we've put in previous to that point. So there's the navigating of the external noise, and I just know that I want to walk into every single room and inspire anybody that I can do.

there, whether that's with a ball in my hand or not, or the way that I talk about playing a sport that I love and being a powerful woman who just does something because I want to do it. And that's, I think, the way to inspire the next generation and to inspire not just the next generation, my generation, the generation that came before me, I just want to do something because I can do it,

not because I'm told otherwise. And being in a place where you are that wrong, as you say, you don't really realise it until you talk to somebody. After a game, we love going on and talking to all the fans. And I cannot believe some of the interactions that I have. It's almost how they've just met Taylor Swift. And I'm not liking myself to Taylor Swift, but I'm like, go, sure. I'm just, I'm just a normal person.

You can be like me. We're the exact same person. I'm probably just got a little bit more years on you now. but to have the ability to do that and I also read my Instagram messages and I get some really lovely messages that sometimes the days I need to hear that and to read the stories

I can't reply to all of them so I'm not going to sit here in line and say I reply to them all but I do engage with looking at them and seeing how much it means them and how what we do has an impact on other people because we're not slowing down

and we're not stopping. So we're only going to start inspiring more people. We start being a role model for more people. And that's kind of the aim really, whether you're successful in a competition or not. You just want to show you can do it. Because you are filling stadiums with the Red Roses, which was unheard of five years ago.

It's really quite incredible. The Red Roses are undefeated for more than 50 games. I listened to another interview you gave where you are so taken aback by sometimes by your fans that somebody asked you to take a picture and you took the camera off them and took a picture of them and handed it back.

Yeah, that was, I don't know, I needed one of you. Yeah, that was my first game. So it was my first cap. And that, after the game, I obviously, I was obviously a rookie. So finished, he went over, like he said, so I said, oh, can I get a picture? I was like, sure, of course, come here,

give me your phone. And their faces was just like, no, with you in it. And I was like, oh, my God, okay. Me? Got a picture, yeah. The next person said, can I have your autograph? And I didn't have an autograph.

I didn't even have a bank card. I was 17, 18. Yeah. So I made it up there and then. So I've got the world's shittiest autograph. You're just a scribble. Yeah, it's just an e-with-a-scrigal. Anyone can forge it.

I shouldn't be saying that on a podcast, but it's easy. And then the next person I saw was my mum who was handing me my A-level biology homework. Wow. Hibing your grand reading. Yeah, and I'm going to back across pictures of those books in my hands. But that memory in itself, I think, shows that we're not too far away from, you know, these young girls and boys who are coming through, who, you know, looking up to us is that we're, like, I remember that like it was last

week and I'm still the same person. Just because more people come to watch, it hasn't changed anything. Yeah, I can do my signature a little bit quick and I don't take pictures just of people, but yeah, we're just people that love a sport. We're not any different to anybody else. So you don't have to call with stars or anything. We're just doing something that we love and people love watching it as well. So I'm grateful for that. But one of the most famous female sports stars in the world is a rugby player at their moment, Ilona Mahe here.

That woman is a powerhouse. Yeah, 5 million followers, front page of Sports Illustrated. I'm desperately trying to get legs like that. I know, like her body is. Desperate for them legs. The representation of female strength that Elona and yourself and other women are putting out there is so, so important to young girls because we've done research on women's health and there's plenty of other research out there about body image and how young girls body image, they struggle with what they look. The reason why the huge percentage of girls drop out of sport in school is because of what they look like in their gym kit and the preconception that muscles are manly. But you're changing that.

and Elona is changing that. And it's absolutely brilliant. But do you have days where you still struggling with your body image and it's something you see amongst your teammates? Yeah, 100%. Everything they just said around, you know, growing up and being in school, like it's very close to me and it's very close to home because that was definitely like how I felt.

You know, it never made me want to drop out of the sport, but I never felt the same as anyone else because I'm not huge. I'm not, you know, I'm quite slim for a rugby player. probably why I play the way I play because I'm not going to run into people. But yeah, I just always remember thinking, oh, I don't look like my friends. I look like a boy. Like, I don't know why I look like a boy.

I'm still in a dress, but I don't want, I remember going to prom and picking my dress, and I didn't want one that my traps were out or my arms out, so I got, like, quite a high-neck dress. And even to, you know, it's a weird one, because I think we're in that transition phase, of, you know, it's so powerful to see strong women. And social media is starting to lean more towards athletic women

as opposed to the runway models that you probably saw a few years ago. It's now... Heroin cheat. Yeah, and it's championing women who are athletic. And that's so inspiring to see because also I see them people that look like me. And now I can go on a clothing website and see a model that actually, that's what I would look like rather than it be someone that I think, oh, I love that, I put it on, I think, I don't know what I've got on right now,

but it's not that. But yeah, there's still days that you have to remember, I've got to remember, because I'm not going to speak on behalf of, you know, my teammates, but body image is such a mental challenge because our body is our tool. My body has made me well play over the year. My body makes me a good rugby player, and it serves myself and my team and the people around me.

People want to come watch me play because of the work that I put in so that I can perform on the pitch. And I've got to remind myself of that. I've also got to remind myself that it takes a lot of hard work to get muscle to, you know, being a place where I'm walking with a strappy top on and people are saying to me, you look really athletic, random people in the street. And where probably my defence mechanism comes into by like,

oh God, does that mean they're actually complimenting me? And I think it's because growing up, I never really saw it as a compliment. I think being part of a male-dominated sport as well was probably directed those thoughts into maybe like a negative reflection as opposed to as a positive one. But that's the type of thing that, you know, with the likes of a loner and other superstars

across the women's sport, this is not just rugby, championing the effort and the work rate that goes into, working hard and training hard for your body to be a tool and for it to be healthy, that, you know, it's, it's cool when people have got muscles, it's attractive when people have got muscles. And when I see someone with muscles, man or woman, I think I respect you. You know what goes into it. I know exactly what goes into that.

I think as well, obviously, what you're doing, I mean, you're a lot younger than myself. But there's research. Not that much, Jenna. Yeah, well, there's research out now. I think people are wising up to the fact, not just aesthetically, But there is research, I think, from like age 35 in females, the muscle mass, the bone density, it all depletes. So the more physical strength we can have now, it sets you up for longevity down the line. You know, like you'll fall over, you won't have a fall.

You know, there's a difference, isn't there, if someone has a fall? And I think people are wising up to that on social media now. They're realising, regardless of what I look like, this is so important for my health, my longevity and my well-being. Yeah. I think we're also close to the days that it's not even about what you look like anymore. That's how you feel, isn't it? Everybody's body's different. I can, I mean, you look across a rugby team.

We do pretty much the same gym program as each other. Depending on forwards and back and your position on the field, you might do it slightly different running, but the body type is different from every single person. And that's the one thing that I love about rugby. People say it is for all shapes and sizes. And I know if I was to go into her school and say that, or if someone was to say that,

you'd probably say, oh yeah, the muscular girls, like, this is for her. She's shot up, like, it can be for her. Yes, there's a space for these guys. There's also a space for, you know, the tiny little girl that, you know, she's not very tall. She's not very strong. There's a place for your own rugby field.

Like, we can work it out. We're looking and diving. Exactly that. Exactly that. And I think that's what's really cool about it, is that it's not about the way. that you look. It's about your health, your fitness, if you can be dedicated, if you can have drive and passion to keep on getting better, getting stronger. And that's the common

denominator between everybody, not the way that you look. And that's, I think, probably the only place in my life that I feel like, wow, I fit here, because no one fits, no one fits. There's not a fit for anybody. So that's where I feel the most safe, because no one's going to say, oh, you look really like this or I hug one of the girls. I can feel the muscles that you've got. Everyone's like perfectly imperfect. And away from rugby, what does a typical day, if you had an off day, what are your hobbies, interest?

What's a typical day for you if you had? No rugby responsibilities, no training responsibilities. You can be at home doing whatever you're like. What is it you're into away from that? Well, I'm really busy at the moment because commercially I've got podcast. In days like to say, I've got a podcast and I've got an appearance later where to say would be an off day and I would probably be trying to get some Washington or something. But I rarely spend that much time at home anymore because I am quite busy in that respect. But also I understand the importance of balance and switching off.

So my go-to has always been creative. So whether that's, I made a bed frame in my room. Have you ever watched Drake and Josh? Yes. You know the big platform that the bed's on? Yes. I made that. Oh my God.

I just decided. I was how I want to do that. I said it did that. Or I'll paint or I'll make videos, but I love taking photos. Right. And that's been my switch off from rugby. So I'll take my camera everywhere I go. And the example, the Olympics, between games because we have the sevens.

So you play three games a day. I'd have one game. And then I'd go off into the stadium and get the... pictures of random people and then I go back and play a game because that was my switch off because as much as you know there's everything going on as soon as the lens is there it's just I'm dialed in and I'm focused but I'm also not even thinking about ruby because I'm thinking what's at the end of that lens um so I like taking photos obviously when I'm sat at the house there's not many things I can take photos of but I like getting outside because of that because also I love taking pictures

of people and telling their story and having a conversation with said people. So if I go to an event, an appearance and I take my camera, I'll take photos of people. And then people, let's say they don't know who I am. They don't know how play rugby. They think I'm the photographer of the event. So then I get at a time, I'm like, oh, excuse me, can you get a photo of us as well, please? Sure, I got it. I take a photo of them and say, oh, is it going to be on the website after?

And I say, I'm not the photographer here. Doing a hobby. Yeah, but then it starts this. it's like the best networking tour I've ever had in my life because then they go, oh wow, what do you do? Can we get it off of, I say, we can get off of Instagram, I can send it to you. They can get my Instagram up and like, shit.

Yes. Right, okay, we got that wrong. You're a big deal. And then we have a conversation, but that's where, you know, we're trying to reach more crowds and more groups of people and it's not just the people that already come to watch because, you know, we know that you're going to be there.

We love that you're there. We've got the opportunity to spread it across so many different cultures, art, music, fashion. I want it to be spread because I think there's a space for everybody in women's sport. It doesn't matter if you're playing or not. To see women doing things that are powerful and it's just cool. I just remember the first time I watched a women's rugby game and I was like, oh my God. And I was like 18.

I was way into my career then. I was like, Jesus Christ, this is cool. and I want people to get that bug because I know how it felt for me when I saw it. Because it might just inspire you just to do something. It doesn't have to be a sport,

but to see people that have probably gone against the odds who will get the critics come in and the stereotypes, but they still do it and they're still body good at it. I think that's the thing that's the most inspiring and that's why I like these conversations. I'll take a photo of you. We have that.

And I say, yeah, come to a game. You've met me now. I won't send you this photo if you don't come to a game. Come on watch what we do. Yeah. Who growing up, mine was Jet from the Gladiators, do you remember Jet? Yes. I used to look like Jet, yeah.

Again, strong athletic gladiator. Who inspired you growing up, like before you became a professional? What type of women did you think I want to be like that when I'm older? Was there any specific or just? Athletically, like in sports, I didn't really. I watch like Jess Ennis and love her. She's so sick. Yeah, yeah.

When, you know, the Olympics were on. or the athletics run I'd switch on. But like I said before, women's team sports definitely at the time wasn't on TV. I couldn't watch it. I didn't even know that there was an England women's team. I watched a lot of football.

I loved Liverpool. So I was like Stephen Gerard, Fernando, sorry, want to be like those. But there was no female role models in that sense. I know that my mum was, and still is a huge role model for, you know, working hard for something and being a successful woman. and in a household and running after two crazy children

that me and my brother are and still keeping your cool and being able to still strive for the best, strive for more. And the amount of work she puts into something when she's got a mind to it, she will make sure that she gets it because she will just put the hours in, she'll put the dedication in. And that's something that I always wanted to be like

that if you want something, you can get it, whatever you want. You can get whatever you want in this world. But if you do it, you'll get it. I would like to be known as someone who's a doer. If I want it, I get it. And there's no way, there's no way that I'm not because I'll keep on going until I get that thing that I want because you can feel it inside you. There's no failure then, I don't think.

If you have that attitude, there isn't a failure because you just try a different route. Yeah. I think the failure is when you stop trying. They say it's a Greek word and I think it's called kinesis. And they say, you know, keep moving, keeping kinesis, never get stagnant. Even if you're going in the wrong direction, you're still more. moving. Yeah.

And I've seen it actually in gyms, kinesis, on some of the equipment. And it is to always, the failure is when you stop, not when you just keep going, which I love. Isn't there a phrase that you use and then there's no point in being lukewarm? Yeah, lukewarm is no good. Yes. It's weird because when I get asked about it, I think over the years, the meaning of it is probably adapted to whatever situation that I'm in.

It's more like a mantra or a value now as opposed to. to a quote that I feel like I have to read and recite. But it's a quote by I rolled down and it's actually a lot longer than that. It's, I'm not going to recite the whole thing, but it's essentially saying that if you're passionate about something, you've got to embrace it, you've got to hug it with both hands and you've got to go for it because, like, lukewarm is no good. And at the time, my mum gave me this, like, little poster with it on. And I was like, wow, I love that.

And then I've kind of adapted that to everything in my life. I am the type of personal, I'm either 0% or I'm 110%. There is no in between. And it is exactly that. The warm is no good. And kind of what I said, like if you want to be a do, if you want to get something, you're going to keep on going to where you need to be to get there. But yeah, I'm passionate about loads of things.

I mean, it might be ADHD for all I know. But I become like super obsessed. So this is a thing that I want now. This is a thing that I want to do. So I'll make sure I do it. in the bed, I decided. So I went to be in Q and got it that afternoon. I'm doing it.

So I did I have no idea? Michael Jordan said, didn't he? When the journalist asked him how he felt to lose, he said, I've never lost the game. You said, I've just ran out of time. I love that. I'm going to use that. I said, I've not lost one game in my life.

We just ran out of time on that one. I love that. What do you want, obviously, you've achieved so much. What do you hope to achieve still moving forward? So much. I don't believe that you can ever get to your best. I don't want to ever get to my best. I want to just keep on getting better in different ways.

And in terms of achievements as such that you could write on a piece of paper, of course I'd love to sit here and say, I want to win a World Cup, I want to win an Olympics, I want to win a premiership. I could sit down and say all these things that you're probably going to be able to read anywhere on Wikipedia. But essentially the thing that I want to achieve is by the time I retire hopefully in a long time because I never want to stop playing rugby, that one, I never lost the drive and the passion, but also I was happy doing it and I made memories.

And I remember someone saying at a dinner once, it might have got it the wrong way around, but make a movement not a moment. And that's the thing that I want that that's when I know, okay, I've done everything I can because I've made a movement. I've not made a moment because the moment passes. You remember moments, but they kind of pass and it's on to the next one. You make a movement and you carry that throughout your life. So that's kind of what I want to do.

The three things, like I said, be happy doing it and not waste any moment. I've been there. I've been there when you get so caught up in how much time there is that you waste it thinking about the end. It's like the World Cup. This is an example. As soon as the last woke up finished, I was like, I want the World Cup to. to be now. We're now at the pre-season. I don't want to work up to be now because as soon as it starts, it stops. So I like, you know, I don't want to miss these moments because I've realized

over time, I mean, I'm speaking as if I'm some wise old woman, but I've realized that all these great memories that I've been part of, and I've already lived a life full of memories that I'm going to one day hopefully write a book and people will love to read it. You've got the photos to prove it while your camera images. That, you know, I'd never thought about the end of it and I was just in the moment with it and I was happy doing it. And other people were happy around me and it's something that is a core memory because of that, not because I was thinking, oh shit, it's nearly the end now. I best rush us and do that.

So that's the second. And like I said, just to, you know, make a movement and take women's sport, this is bigger than women's rugby. Take women's sport to a place that is unimaginable. I don't want to sit here and ever say this is what it's going to look like that's why I can't give you a straight answer about what you want your achievements to be because I want it to go past my imagination

I don't want to be able to sit here and tell you a list of all the things I'm going to do because I want to go further than that I want to do better than that because you'll tick the list off and you get to the end and go oh shit what's next my list has run out

it's like that glass thing that everyone talks about I am a strong believer in that I want whatever's there whatever's there go past that and then see how far it goes from there and yeah that's kind of my goals is to almost like not have a set goal, but just do it because I want to do it.

I watched the final of the last women's rugby world cup and believe it or not, I was supporting England even though I couldn't for the men's game, to be honest, but I was so behind you and really quite devastated when New Zealand beat you because it was such a nail-biting game. I remember it was on a morning because it was over there, it was a morning kickoff. And I remember being quite shocked that you'd lost because I was convinced that you were going to win that game. What's your predictions for this tournament? It's a home tournament as well, which is incredible.

You're going to sell out stadiums. What's your predictions? Is it going to be in New Zealand again? We just ran out of time. They didn't lose. Yeah, yeah, we ran out of time. We just ran out of time. Predictions, I mean, going into any competition,

I think it be, of course I'm going to say, England are going to win. I think you've got to go in with that mentality that we are going to win. That's not ego. That's not being complacent. That's what I'm striving for. So that's what I'm going to say. If you don't verbalise that thing, you're not ever going to do it.

If you talk yourself out of attack and say, I can't talk. You're not going to tackle them. You're not going to tackle them. You still might not tackle them, but you've said it. So, yeah, England's win. But I also think that, you know, Canada, France, New Zealand, they've closed a gap. And what we're working on up until the World Cup now is how do we regain that gap?

Because they're good and they've pushed us pretty close. You know, you look at the France game and the Six Nations Grand Slam Decider, pushed the Red Rose is very close. Canada, when we play them in WXV, pushed us very close. We've had a few very close games against New Zealand, and we all know what they can bring in a World Cup cycle as well. It's very different to the New Zealand that you see throughout the other years. So, you know, you've got to go into competition.

in a World Cup especially with no expectations of them focusing on yourself and what you expect of yourself because you don't know what other teams are going to bring. You have no idea what the crowds are going to bring, having the home support. I don't know how that's going to feel in a World Cup. We know that people come in their numbers and I love that fans come down and it makes a huge difference. Trust me, because doing a World Cup final in New Zealand against New Zealand

was pretty isolating. So it's their home advantage, I don't say home advantage, but the home support will hopefully bring an advantage to us and our beliefs, you know, going to a game and our conference as well. But I think it's going to be tight between all four. I'm obviously going to sit here and say, we are going to work as hard as we can over the next few months to ensure and to make sure, sorry,

that we have given ourselves the best opportunity to win the World Cup because we will be putting in hard work, yes, we have won games where that doesn't mean anything. As soon as you come to a World Cup, it's game by game. It doesn't matter if you've won 50 in a row. It doesn't matter if you've won 100 in a row or if you've never won before. It's a World Cup and anything can happen in a game of rugby.

So you can't really go win with expectations, but that will probably be my top four. It's the matcha or the three ensemble Cadocephora of the fact that I just have been to denishé who energize all the time. It's all overmuffs. The form of standard and mini-regrouped. Hello, Ben.

And the embellage, too beau, who is practically pre-a-doned. And I know that I'd love them offriar. But I guard the Summer Fridays and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. I'm just a good The best ensemble Cado of the Fettes.

Summer Fridays, Rare Beauty, Way, Ciphora Collection and other part of the vite. Procurre you see form of standard and mini, regrouped for a better quality of price on link on Cifora.com or in magazine. Well, thank you for joining us today.

We've got some quick fire questions for you. Short answers. Who are fitter, rugby players or footballers? Footballers. I've seen their running stats. I've seen their running stats. Oh, no. No, I'm going to say rugby players.

You've got to get off and that. I think rugby players, because they, both of them, both teams, it's the switching of the directions, I think, on your hip flexes for both footballers and rugby players. It's tough. But rugby players, in my opinion, spend the whole game pretending not to be injured. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true.

They play two games a week. That's why I'm going off of fitness. Footballers play two games a week. And the amount of running that they do is crazy. But I think rugby players is the strength. and the impact. You wouldn't mask be you're battered. Yeah, true. Fine. Rugby.

Rugby. We'll go with rugby. So I'm coming for dinner at your place. What are you cooking me? Sausage and mash. Sausage and mashed. I love it. Red onion gravy, a bit of red wine. Yeah, nice. Anything with gravy, to be fair.

Chips gravy. Bread and gravy, yeah. Yeah, it's a northern thing. Yeah. What's one thing about you that would surprise us? Oh. God, you've put me on the spot there. I've got a tattoo gun

I've never been taught how to tattoo but I've tattooed about 10 people Right Just really dig a bit deeper there Or I just with pens or No an actual tattoo

I just got it off of Amazon And I was like Does anyone want a tattoo? And a few of the girls Like yeah go on then Why not? So I set up a shop Which we put on some plastic gloves

We get some antiseptive It's like, I'm antiseptic on them And like, what tattoos have they had? They're all very simple. I'm not going to make it sound like it's anything. It's not. I've done like a little camera on someone's ankle. I've done someone's cap number, which is actually very good.

I've done a lightning bolt. They're not very good. They're like... No, but they've been done by you. Yeah. That's the love story there. Like the camera, it was literally like the second tattoo I've ever done. I've never even held a tattoo gun.

And I've only got minimal tattoos on myself anyway. And I'm like, okay, so does anyone else want one, and one of the girls go, I've got it. Bear in mind, the first tattoo was a cross on someone's shoulder. She goes, I've got it. Can I have a camera? And I was like, a camera? I can't even draw house. So why do you want a camera?

She was like, no, I just really want it. But it's because she got a camera as well. And we like going out and taking photos together. And she was like, oh, it's a camera because it's our thing. Oh, that's so sweet. little thing between it. I would love to see this camera, though. It depends where it is.

Yeah. No, it's on my ankle. It's my ankle. Yeah, so there's loads of things like that I just, not just like tattooing people because that's not essentially a hobby. I just like doing something that's like, well, fine. But whenever I get asked random, like a random thing about myself, I'm like, oh, where do I start?

Where do I start? I don't know. And finally, what do you do to give yourself a kick up the ass when you literally cannot be bothered to try? train. Good music. Yeah, put the speaker on. Get some good music going. What's your go-to track? At the moment, I really like, I'm really into Rema. So it's like Afro beats, I'm a piano. I like Yawa by Fireboy DML is like, it's always like, okay, we're going to go now. No idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, it's a good, it's a good chat. I just love, like, music that I can, like, dance to and stuff. So put it on this morning. Yeah, this morning I was like, I cannot be getting in the car at 6.30 a. m. As soon as I work, I'll put the music in, I was like, right, we're up, we can go. Does transform, yeah. I mean, I probably shouldn't say it because it's the New Zealand thing,

but the hacker before a game. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've watched the male, the rugby guys do the hacker. And I literally got goosebumps. It was, it was the, yeah, there was something about it. I was kind of like, oh. No, no. It's a privilege to face a hacker.

It's scary, but it's, I mean, it's only scary because, you know when you're going to an old, like an ancient chapel or something like that, or an old house and there's like those oil paintings, and it feels like wherever you're standing, they're looking at you. I remember, like, facing it and thinking, oh, God, she's looking at me because she wants to smash me. Oh, wait, she's looking at me, she wants to smash me. And I do that the whole team, but they're looking at everybody. And then I learned that it's like a sign of respect.

And that's why the hacker has performed. I don't know if you say performed, but that's why the girls do the hacker. And my whole mindset changed on it. So I don't feel scared anymore. I feel like ready. And then I was speaking to one of the, because it's intense, like you said.

I was speaking to, I think it was Richard McCall. One of the New Zealand, all blacks, like legend to the game. And he was saying that when they were in there, you know, World Cup winning year, they had to have a psychologist come in to try and manage emotions because they found that the first 20 minutes of a game was their worst performance

or the worst part of the performance in the whole game because although people will argue, oh, it's a psychological advantage, it actually became a disadvantage because it became too intense and they got too riled up for it. So that's why I love the story behind all of it. So when I face it, I'm like, yeah, this is intense.

so I'm here. I'm still going to smash you back. Yeah. Catch me first. Yeah, exactly. Oh, thank you for joining us. It's been so lovely getting to know you and you've inspired me literally.

My daughter's five and I'm sure after she watches and listens to this, she'll be like, Mom, can I sort of swap me dance for rugby? Yeah, okay. Absolutely. She can dance around the players. That's what I try to do anyway. But best of luck with everything in the future and we'll have you back probably same time next year when you've won.

Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting

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