Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - The New Rules for Better Sleep that Every Woman Needs

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

Sleeping soundly is something that’s become an increasingly elusive goal since the pandemic pressed pause on our daily way of operating. So much so that UCL research out in June revealed two thirds of people surveyed have been experiencing some sort of sleep disturbance in lockdown. Far from ideal when you consider that getting adequate, good quality sleep is a critical factor in us being able to feel and function at our best - and that experts believe we’ll be cycling in and out lockdowns until a Covid-19 vaccine is found. While much of the anxiety and stress of this moment can harm your sleep whatever your gender, as a woman, you’re up against specific slumber saboteurs. From extra caring responsibilities to hormonal gymnastics, women have - as one of today’s guests puts it - ‘really hit the jackpot’. Thankfully today’s guests - both foremost experts in their respective fields within the science of women’s sleep - come armed with tonnes of tips and tactics that we can all use to help us protect our sleep and live better. Joining Roisín this week are Dr Shelby Harris, a NYC-based clinical psychologist and author of The Women’s Guide To Overcoming Insomnia and Dr Katharina Lederle, consultant human sleep and fatigue specialist and author of Sleep Sense. Whether your wake-up-at-3am insomnia has reared it's head in recent weeks; the specific anxieties of the moment mean, for the first time, you’re struggling to nod off; or you’re a late riser who’s thriving on their new set-your-own schedule and worried about returning to the office 9-5, they’ve got you.  Find out more about Dr Katharina Lederle Find out more about Dr Shelby Harris   Follow Women’s Health on Instagram: @womenshealthuk Follow Roisín Dervish-O’Kane on Instagram: @roisin.dervishokane Topics:  Why cycling in and out of lockdown is a sleep saboteur The case for sleep being a feminist issue What to do - and not to do - if you can’t sleep How going to bed later can stop early-hours wake ups  Ways to readjust your schedule if you’re returning to the office 5 doctor-approved better sleep tactics you can try tonight Like what you’re hearing? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, and remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so you’ll never miss an episode. Got a goal in mind? Shoot us a message on Instagram putting ‘Going for Goal’ at the start of your message and our experts could be helping you achieve your health and wellness ambitions in an upcoming episode.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and this is your weekly chance to plug in, be inspired and get expert advice on how to achieve the health and wellness goals that matter most to you. When you consider just how foundational sleeping well is to every element of how we feel and function, it's pretty surprising that we've made it

to nearly 30 episodes of going for goal without ever dedicating a whole episode to it. But today we very much are, since sleeping soundly is something that's become an increasingly elusive goal over the past few months. Loads of you have been in touch to ask for help with everything from drifting off to managing those early hour wake-ups. But this is an issue that extends far beyond our little women's health community.

You'll likely have seen the King's College London survey that found over two-thirds of participants have been experiencing some sort of sleep disturbance in lockdown. So what exactly could be going on? And how do you get your slumber and whole health back? on track if it's out of whack. In today's episode, I'm joined by two women who respectively have a real wealth of knowledge about the psychology and chronobiology of sleep. That last one is all to do with your body's internal clock, by the way, but more on that later. They are Dr. Shelby

Harris, a clinical psychologist and specialist voice in the area of behavioural sleep medicine. She's a practicing clinician in New York, and also author of the Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia. Then there's Dr. Catherine Liedler, who's an expert in huge, human sleep in fatigue with over 10 years of research experience. She's also a sleep consultant who helps people unlock better sleep and with that healthier lives. Her book's Sleep Sense is also out now. Together we cover a lot of ground such as why cycling in and out of lockdown can sabotage our sleep, why some of the old sleep rules need rewriting and why now with an increase of things like childcare, another domestic labour falling disproportionately on women over lockdown.

Women's sleep is under threat and really needs protecting. Ready to build a healthy sleep life in order to feel and function better? Of course you are. Let's go. Okay, so Dr. Catherine Liedeler and Dr. Shelby Harris, welcome both to going for goal. Hello. Hi. Thanks for having me. I cannot wait to get stuck into this topic with you both. But before, I want to be a little bit nosy. How did you guys sleep last night? Because I slept absolutely terribly. I slept okay. I'm sleeping. I'm actually living with. my parents for the next month and a half.

I live in New York City, so I needed some childcare help. So I'm sleeping okay, but I always can hear my kids in the next door room. So I'm just kind of sleeping with one year open, just kind of getting them settled a little bit for the next month or so. Yeah, I bet. What about you, Dr. Kat? I must say, I slept fine. And that's probably because it's been a bit cooler. Last week was quite hot.

So I noticed that. And so, yeah, I felt cool. Yeah, slip quite well, yeah, slip quite well. I'm very envious, but also very happy to hear it. So we're talking all about sleep and how people can get the best night's sleep possible in the face of all the disruptions that we've had in the past few months and that looks set to continue. Starting with Dr. Shelby, can you both explain a little bit about how you came to be working in this field? When I was an undergraduate at Bryan University, they had a really interesting sleep class.

And it was one of the most popular courses by a woman named Mary Karsgaden. And I just fell in love with it then. And then I just started doing some research in addictions and sleep. And we found that when people started sleeping better, an early recovery, it actually reduced their relapse rates. And it started to make me think that when you get people sleeping better, it really does impact so many areas of their lives. And so I just really wanted to be, I always wanted to be a clinical psychologist, but I saw that if we really made that impact on sleep, and focused on sleep, and you can do it for many people in a very short-term way, it can impact so many other areas of their lives, and that's really how I got down that path.

Fascinating. What about you, Dr. Kat? I got into it is a little bit different. I think it, so for me, it started off with chronobiology and circadian rhythm and the timing system that we have, and from there, I sort of entered the sleep field. And for me, it's really the interface of both the sleep and the circadian aspect and how they play together in sleep, but overall for our well-being in life. Before we get into the particulars of this current moment, I think let's clear up some terminology. So when we talk about circadian rhythms, what's a kind of simple explanation for what those actually are and how important a role they play in our lives?

Sure, good question. circadian rhythms relate to your circadian system. And here you can think of you have a body clock that's an area in your brain. And this body clock sets the timing for everything that happens in your body. So it's a bit like the conductor in an orchestra and all the different organs in your body, or different processes and the different cells. They're all the different musicians. And they can all play on their own.

But in order to really play beautifully, that beautiful symphony that we want to hear, you need a conductor and that's your body clock and now your body clock again needs regular light input so that the conductor know where it knows when the concert is starting and when it's ended. I literally just received this email as we got on the call and it was for, it was a lovely email from a listener called Meg and she basically she is really struggling because she wants to be able to get in place these healthy habits but she is, well she's a key worker. she works for the NHS, she works in the ambulance service. And she said something that kind of really gave me pause,

and it was that everything that we say, it kind of comes back to this idea of having a healthy routine and setting in places routines, but obviously that's not something she has the privilege to do. Why can shift work be so disruptive? Because we're working against our internal body clock. The body clock has evolved, our body has evolved to,

function and be active in the daytime when it's light and to rest, to sleep, to slow down when it's dark. And any shift worker, they, for some time when they're working in the day and sleep at night, all is fine, but because that's the nature of shift. It changes. They have to work against what the body clock and what the body wants. And what's really bad is actually the constant shift, that they're always changing when they work after a few days of one shift, you'd go onto another one and maybe even a third one.

It depends. And so the body can never ever really settle. And that's where we then see problems, sleep problems, but other metabolic problems come up as well. Just to bring us back onto something that is probably a near universal experience at the moment, the coronavirus pandemic, lockdown, our adjusted lives and schedules, people are getting really frustrated at the fact that they're not able to sleep properly. Because for people that are able to work from home, who aren't key workers, you're not having to, you probably gain about an extra three hours in your day from not having to commute. And it's like, brilliant, I'll go to sleep earlier.

It'll be a great way to kind of catch up on that. And for loads of people, it just hasn't worked. Dr. Shelby, do you have any idea why this current moment has been so disruptive on people's sleep patterns? From an insomnia perspective, when we think about it, like stress throws everyone off, right? So a few weeks, a month of stress, makes a lot of people, myself included, sleep poorly. So when we're told especially like in New York, just like you guys, stay home, everything has changed, distance learning, all this sort of stuff. Things change. Your stress response happens. And sleep doesn't happen as well.

That's natural. However, for a lot of people, after a few weeks of that, it starts to normalize and you start to almost adjust to the new pattern of what life looks like, but there's still a large subset of people who haven't been sleeping as well. And the reason that we think that is happening is that part of it is that you're having stress still going on. But the other thing is that we've changed some of our habits to try and deal with the fact that we're not sleeping.

So I'm not sleeping well at night. So now I can sleep in a little bit later. I can compensate for the fact that I haven't been sleeping. So maybe I'll go to bed earlier or I'll sleep in or I don't have to do something in the middle of the day. So maybe I'll try and take some naps. I'll drink some extra coffee. People start relying a lot more with the stress and the anxiety and just not sleeping. They're drinking more alcohol, relying on over-the-counter medications.

And people after about a month or two start really worrying about sleep more. So they start focusing on it. I have to sleep tonight. Otherwise, X, Y, Z is going to happen. I'm not going to be able to do this. And what we find is that after about a month or two of not sleeping, for a lot of people, it's those behaviors, the lack of routine, the lack of exercise, things becoming much looser. That actually starts to maintain the insomnia. So it's the things you're trying to do to get more sleep because you didn't sleep as well at the beginning that's actually getting you in hot water.

So I am trying now to focus on those behaviors that people have changed to get them sleeping better because we're not going to be able to change the lockdown issue. we can change how we respond to it from a structure behavioral way and also just limiting news exposure and all that sort of stuff too. You've really focused on women's sleep. Is there an argument that sleep issues and insomnia are, of course they affect men as well, but is there an argument that they are a real issue in particular for women? Oh yeah. So for sure. There's a higher rate of insomnia in women for definitely, even pre-COVID issues. There's hormonal changes. Women are just hit the jackpot.

So when you're talking about even we actually see it's interesting, there's the same rates of sleep issues in boys and girls up until adolescence. And then women, when girls start to get their men'sies, that's when sleep problems actually start to become an issue. So some women start to have higher rates of insomnia just before they get their period. and then you think about pregnancy, pregnancy hormones that can really even throw people off. I know I had a lot of insomnia when I was in my first and third months or third triesters of pregnancy. Then once the baby comes, your hormones are all out of whack.

And then the biggest period that we see a lot of time is perimenopause when there's dropping spikes and drops and testosterone, estrogen, and that can continue for a long time. Hot flashes. The hormones really can throw it. us out of whack a lot more. Interesting. And perimenopause, it's one of those things that people didn't really, I think it was underestimated for quite a long time, but now people know it can hit in your 30s, it can hit much sooner than we would have traditionally thought of. For sure. And there are a number of women in their mid to late 30s who are starting perimenopause who were in shock. But that really can sometimes be the first signal of insomnia for them. Interesting.

Interesting. So something to bear in mind if you are around that kind of age and stage. And what about you, Dr. Kat, what do you think about this moment is kind of feeding into people's struggle to sleep? Obviously, some people will have always had sleep issues and they are reporting that they are experiencing these more severely. But also some people are struggling with sleep who probably haven't even before. What are the defining factors in both of these groups? I think Shelby could summarize it quite well. Well, typically, yeah, there's a stressful situation that sort of resolves, but you've changed. sort of lifestyle and certainly the worry about sleep has said for us what continues is the uncertainty

and that's that's for all of us in one way or another i think some people are more much more directly impacted by by the virus and the pandemic and the lockdown in others but nevertheless we all have that sort of invisible weight on on our shoulders so that's there this this not knowing not knowing really what will happen next and that in it's is a great question for our mind because, you know, then it can come up with planning so many different, you know, virtual scenarios of what might happen. And then also how do I prepare for this best? And so there's a lot of activity, I think, in the brain. I'd be really curious to see, you know, whether anyone is doing studies, whether that is the case. But from what clients

tell me, that's very much sounds like it. And then, certainly the change in routines, and we are having even less natural light than we had before. And lockdown, I do believe, you know, that was the right way to go. But it reduced the amount of us spending outdoors even more. And I think that's another big impact that's coming and related to that. It is the change in routines. And change in routines means, again, for our brain that it becomes unsettles. and maybe a little bit unsafe because it needs routines

and that's where the body clock comes in again to sort of know what's coming next and to prepare us and that's all gone out of the window and we're slowly piecing that back together but whatever we're piecing back together is going to change again. So there's a lot and also you said in the beginning we're not commuting anymore so we have that extra time and that's true but a lot of people I've spoken to they now

solely use that time for work. Whereas before, part of that commute, they would have read or listened to a podcast, but now they already go to their desk at 8 o'clock and come leave their desk at 10 or 11 even. So not everyone can actually use this commute time as a way of letting go or slowly preparing. I think for a lot of people,

it's still into the working day and then sort of out and into sleep. And these changes are happening too quickly, too abruptly, so that the body actually can't really adjust either way. Yeah, that's the whole thing, is it when we talk about sleep hygiene and one of the real like hallmark piece of advice that I'm sure we'll come to later

is this idea of having a, like a pre-bed routine. It's like sleep likes those small built-up transitions, doesn't it? It doesn't like you're doing this activity and now I need you to relax. Personally, I'm not such a fan of the word sort of really, It's very strict. So that's just my personal take on it. I prefer healthy habits or rituals.

It's a bit softer. It's a bit more it can be adapted. Whereas routines and rules, I can break them and then what does it say about me? But fundamentally having a set of habits or rituals are a bit like sign poisting to the body. Hay sleep is on its way. And if you think about driving, anyone who's driving on the motorway, at I don't know, 100 miles an hour or kilometres, you know, you are in the fifth gear and then you want to come off the motorway.

You don't go from the fifth gear and you yank it down straight into gear number one. You would slowly go from fifth into fourth into third into second, right? So it's this slowly changing. And it's important for us as well because we are a human being. We're a biological system. We're not a machine. We can't just change from one motor to the other like we do with a light switch. we need time and that's where the signposting comes in and I think that's where yeah

healthy habits come in or little rituals to help the body the brain get the message okay we're changing over here we're shifting and the same actually goes for the morning as well it's not just about the evening you want to the way you want to detach in the evening you want to reattach in the morning to your day I just thought on what we were saying earlier about almost the gender gap that exists within sleep it's interesting to think how much maybe this might be exacerbated during lockdown. I'm sure you guys will have seen the reports that came out about the people who are taking on like domestic chores and childcare.

And so much of this is falling to women, even more so in lockdown than it was previously. And that just really made me think when you were saying there how important it is to kind of let the brain disengage and re-engage, like turn up to being away to wakefulness and turn down to falling asleep. And I wonder how that's probably going to be even more. of an issue for women. So it's not only the hormonal stuff that's going on, but surely if women's time, women's free time, non-working time is being increasingly encroached upon, this is something that we're going to have to really, really pay attention to. Yeah, this extra labour and the way

the woman has always is taking on. That's affecting sleep, I think, psychologically emotionally, as well as, you know, don't write to not being able to go to bed on time because there's just so much else still to do. And there are differences, and shall be alluded to this early on already, that between the sex is the difference in sleep. And it's also in the chronobiology and the circadian system differences that women, as sort of a general finding, have earlier bedtimes than men. But if we have this long list of things to do, we then pushing back our bedtime. can actually then not only shorten the duration of a sleep, but also have an impact on the quality of the sleep. And then you're adding in the hormonal changes that are there naturally happening or fluctuations. And yeah, you know, it's quite easy to see why more women than men have insomnia.

Yeah. Do you think Dr. Shelby then, is there an argument then that sleep, especially in this era of lockdown? Do you think there is then more so than ever an argument that sleep, could be seen as a feminist issue? I think it's going to be a big issue with women just not getting work done. It's going to be a real domestic and a feminist issue overall with people just not getting, there's going to have to be a divide in the house and people getting things done or it has to be a conversation between whoever lives there that we have to divide things. We have to be equal about it because right now it's falling a lot on the women and it's just

their work is suffering as a result. You can't do it all. You just can't. Absolutely. And moving on then, so Dr. Kat, I love what you were saying about you kind of taking issue with the word sleep routine. Why do you think it's helpful to think about these things in terms of rituals? It sounds a bit more juicy and like wellnessy and self-care off the top of my head, but is there a more solid reason why it's better to think of them as such? I think it's probably personal preference, which words you resonate with. But for me, rituals and habits there is an element of self-care but the other part for me is routines and and rules

is about what if I break them right what how do I treat myself the inner monologue that happens when I'm breaking a rule and that could often be something like oh you're a bad person you're just not good enough why didn't you say no to that second glass of wine right and then you set that this whole inner monologue that then comes the inner critic, basically. That's what I'm getting at. And that means you're harsh on yourself, you're bullying yourself, like other people externally can bully you. And that will lead to a whole lot of so-called negative emotions.

And they are more arousing than calming and relaxing. And so for me, the thought is healthy sleep habits. You can adapt them more. They still have, you know, importance, but isn't this breaking the rules? I agree. I think it's the rigidity. that's the aspect is that some people think that I'm going to like you have to do everything and like you were saying it creates more anxiety if you break some rule but I I like just consistency. I think of it

like a healthy diet and lifestyle right if you do these things as much as you can as consistently as possible you're going to have a healthy sleep but not habits but healthy sleep lifestyle overall but it doesn't mean you have to be perfect you don't have to do things perfectly every single night and it will lessen the anxiety and the pressure you put on yourself. It's just another thing that we need to do just to be healthy overall. But it's that list of things that people say, I have to do X, Y, Z before I go to bed that I think just worsens the problem for some people. Yeah. Especially when we're talking about overwhelmed with tasks. Yeah. And I have some patients that have forms, variations of like obsessive compulsive disorder and they get so obsessive with it that it really if they

don't do all the things that are listed sleep hygiene wise they definitely in their head won't sleep so for some of them i actually have them break a lot of the sleep hygiene kind of rules and habits and things that are set in stone and show them that yes we want to do a lot of these things but it's the anxiety that you place on yourself that actually can make it even worse a lot of the times That's such a good point. What are some of the habits that you would suggest they build into their routine? Dr. Kat, let's start with you. So regularity around bedtime and sleep time is for me key.

And also there will be an exploration what happens, sort of what time is dinner, what happens after dinner before going to bed. So looking at that. But then also specifically, so what happens when you are in bed and to lights go off, sort of, you know, provable head hits the pillow. what happens then. And if not before, that's certainly the moment where the anxiety and sort of the unwanted thoughts come in.

And for me, the first step is to help the client really understand what's going on. Because I believe the better they understand what's going on, there is an element of maybe safeness, certainly not knowing what's happening and feeling out of control and not having any power and, you know, will make us feel unsafe and insecure. And that, again, drives the anxiety that physiologically drives the hyperarousal or arousal. And so the wakefulness continues. So helping them understand what they are experiencing, while it is deeply unpleasant, it's actually very normal. It's the normal biological machinery at work just maybe not really at the right time. And then for me the next step is working with what's so unpleasant, the thoughts, potentially the anxiety, and learning ways of allowing, allowing what's happening.

And by allowing we no longer struggling, and by not struggling anymore, you may not fall asleep immediately, but you're no longer in this aroused or hyper-aroused state. you enter a relaxed a calmer state from which then it's easier for sleep to to emerge. Dr. Shelby, what about you? What are some of the fundamentals that you recommend to your clients? The fundamentals, I think all highlighting the stuff that Dr. Kat was saying, what I tend to do too is I work a lot on right now, especially in the COVID area. I'm trying to figure out not just what they're doing pre-bed time and dinner time. For a lot of patients, I'm trying to figure out, what are you? doing during the day right now. So I work a lot with patients of all ages. I have a lot of older

adults that I work with who are really, they're dozing a lot during the day, napping, and just not active, getting light exposure. So I'm trying to even give a mild routine during the day. So I'm working with that. And then like we were just saying, you know, trying to time bedtime with when you're actually sleepy, not just tired and wanting to put an end to the day because it's a long day and it's feeling kind of boring and you just don't know what else to do. So I'm working with patients understanding the difference between fatigue and sleepiness. And then the other big thing is that like we were just saying is that there's that idea of trying to force yourself to go to sleep. And then you get anxious about it and you get tense and you worry about am I going to sleep tonight.

I have to sleep. Why am I not falling asleep? And the more you get in your head, the more it's not going to happen. So I've been working more with a lot of patients on just building a meditation practice during the day. because, and that can be something as simple as one or two minutes of teaching them to meditate, be aware of their thoughts, let the thoughts go. And there are a million different ways we can do meditation because that helps you, if you practice it during the day, when you get in bed at night, notice those thoughts about trying to force sleep to happen, thinking a lot about sleep, just letting it go and letting the natural

bodies process take place. Because the less you try to force it, the more it's going to happen. So it's not about laying in bed doing meditations. It's more about doing it to the day so you can be more aware of your thoughts and just let them go. So I've been focusing on that a lot. And then the one other big thing that I do a lot too is that when people are in bed, I'm like no tech, nothing like that in bed. I don't want them doing that. If you're laying there tossing and turning, you cannot sleep.

After about a half hour max, I have them just get up, go sit somewhere else, do something quiet, relaxing, relaxing, relaxing, dim light. I don't want them to force sleepiness to happen. Just do something past the time because if you're laying in bed tossing and turning for a long time, you're just going to make the problem worse. Just get out. It'll change the thought process. Do a puzzle.

Do some coloring. Dim light. No screens. When you're actually sleepy, go back to bed. Don't force it. When you're sleepy, go back to bed and try to get up at the same time on a routine basis. That's really the wake time is what I focus on a lot with people too, is trying to get up at the same time every day. Ontario, the weight is over.

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and how long, can you even put a timeline on it for how long they will have to wake up at that week time for it to become a habit? If someone wakes up a lot in the middle of night, I always try to just make sure as well that there's nothing else medically going on. So if they're not snoring, sometimes those things can cause awakenings in the frequent urination. That can be a sign of some mild sleep apnea. Rates are going up.

And you know what, with a lot of people gaining a lot of weight right now from COVID, rates of sleep apnea are going to likely go even higher. So if you're snoring, choking, gasping, even in women, this snoring is not like the loud kind of snoring that we often will see. That's something to consider. But if you wake up in the middle night and hormonal things can also cause people to wake up. But if you wake up, we don't want you sleeping in a lot in the morning. It's not ideal. If you keep the same wake time and you go to bed at the same time, ideally that's going to help compress sleep.

And we have something called sleep restriction. It sounds very severe. but if you spend a little less time in bed, go to bed a little later, but wake up at the same time. For some people, it actually helps consolidate and compress your sleep throughout the night. There are a great way, there are resources. My book has it. I know there are a lot of resources online that teach people how to do it.

You don't want to restrict yourself severely, but a little less time in bed can actually help with the awakenings in the middle of the night. So that's one other way to consider it too. Interesting. Because we kind of think that like the sleep, the sleep halo comes from that, like 10 p.m. bedtime. Yeah, it goes, it goes against common sense. I often think sometimes common sense is what creates a lot of the issues with insomnia, right? I have to go to bed early. I need to sleep in. I need to nap. I need to think a lot about sleep. Take things to make me sleep. And sometimes that's

actually what gets you in trouble. To your point there about people following their body's kind of natural rhythms. Some people having a great time because they're thinking, right, especially people who were, you know, owls as opposed to lark. So more evening people and like to wake up. later. If they were on, you know, they needed to be at their desk for quarter to nine every morning and they're actually able to be more flexible. I think some of those people from stuff I've read, people are getting quite stressed now about the return. Those people are stressing because they're thinking, hang on a minute, I've kind of got myself. The normal, the normal was reworked totally against my body. And now I've kind of got myself into a routine which actually

supports that. How does someone negotiate that about how does someone negotiate that and keep this this routine that supports their own circadian rhythm and their own health when they have to kind of get back on someone else's schedule? So I think that's where it's not just the individual, it's society as a whole. I agree 100%. I'm so glad you're talking about this, but the reality is that I think we also do have to realize that we want things to start later and be more based on a more normal circadian rhythm, but people are going to have to adjust it somehow in the next few months when schools or work reopen. And I'm getting questions about that already. And what I'm recommending to people, it's not ideal, is just slowly start to shift a little bit

earlier. If you're not going back to work for another month or two, just be, try to be consistent as best you can in a bedtime, week time. Try to at least stabilize that. And if you can, just maybe go to bed 15 minutes earlier, wake up 15 minutes earlier every few days so that you can slowly shift your schedule earlier. You just want to do it as gradually as possible so that come workday, it's not like, oh, I've got to wake up two, three hours earlier because that's going to be the harsh reality for you. Yeah, the rude awakening, literally. Right, right. It's just our body, we're not meant to do this. They aren't. But if we can at least gradually try to change ourselves over time, that will be better than that rude awakening you were talking about. Yeah, absolutely. I would like, I would

love to get some tips from both of you, the best ones that you often dole out to people you work with or that you think could help anyone who is listening who's looking to get their sleep in a better place. Dr. Kat, can I have a couple from you, please? Having the regularity of your sleep times, of your light exposure, the morning light exposure. And it's about preparing for your nighttime sleep starts the moment you wake up really. And it's remembering, remembering, that putting in place healthy sleep habits, yeah, that start in the day. And it starts with the regularity and the light exposure in the morning. And what are some other of those, what are some more of those healthy sleep habits that you could put in place in the day? For me, little mini

breaks. And I think that relates to what Dr. Shelvin was talking about, the meditation, using that as an opportunity. But little mini breaks where we just step back for a moment, because we have these incredibly busy, fast-paced days where there is constant demand put towards us and we respond and give, give, give in a way. But there's little time for our brain to really process what's going on and also process what's important for us personally. And that then often happens in the evening or at night when we want to sleep. So having these little mini breaks where we just sort of step back and sort of check in with ourselves, but also realize, okay, I've done this task. I might not have done the entire project, but I've done this. So helping the brain realize things have been achieved.

Again, we have this problem-solving machine, right? So we need to kind of help it in that way. Then I think there's also, I mean, the behavior of watching, you know, what you eat, when you eat, what you drink around caffeine, alcohol, exercise, the healthy diet, the regular meal times, dinner, not too late. That's again important for your body clock to support the metabolic health. and your sleep. Absolutely. Right. Dr. Shelby, what about you? I agree 100% with the daytime.

We have to really try and give ourselves. The day really helps for the night. So one of the things I'm a big fan of is I use something called the meditation bell. And you can do it on anything. You can set an alarm. It doesn't matter. But the meditation bell, you can set to go off at random intervals. Some people love it.

Some people want to chuck their phone out the window. But when the bell goes off, it's like a gong. and it just makes you stop in whatever you're doing and just take a mindful break for a second. And I love it. Some of my patients really find that you can be in the moment doing things and you'll have gone for two hours and not have actually just focused on like the world around you were eaten or anything or stood up. So it makes you just stop, realize what you're doing and just take a pause. I'm also a fan of during the day eating lunch, setting an actual time to eat lunch

and eat lunch away from your desk. That's a huge one for me. When it comes to nighttime, things like screens, I like people to be away from screens. I always tell everyone to just go old school with whatever it is you're doing. So stay away from screens, read an old school book if you can, puzzles, find some coloring, do some meditation, do something that is calming to yourself, your body and your brain. And then consistency with bedtime and wake time. And the last thing like I had mentioned before is if you can't sleep, just get up, go do something

else. Don't force it. But I also don't want you to sit up in the middle of the night, just sitting there, just staring in the dark. Do something to pass the time that's quiet, calm, and relaxing. Get back in bed when you're actually sleepy again. And you might have to do it a few times. But the more you're out of bed, the more you won't train your body that the bed is a place

to be awake, tossing and turning, forcing sleep to happen. And the final thing that I'm having a lot of people do is, limit, I had alluded to this earlier, is limiting news exposure. So we're on our phones a lot, getting email alerts, text alerts of the newest news, whatever it is, really try. At the beginning of this whole thing, I limited it to 30 minutes. I would get my local governor's information, and I would just do it at noon every day because it was pertinent to what I needed to know for where I lived, what the stats were nearby. And that was it. 30 minutes, nothing more. And then after that, I really tried to limit social media too, because sometimes social media

would be a connection with the outside world when you're isolated, but sometimes it can be even just more anxiety arousing. So really be thoughtful about how you use the internet. But news 30 minutes earlier in the day, and that's really it for right now. You've got to cut it off at some point. I love that. So replace that dramatic news alert tone with a lovely gong that you'll have like a healthy Pavlovian response to and just wants to sit and close your eyes and take a nice breath. Okay, both of you, it was so interesting, so interesting to talk to you. If people still aren't prioritizing sleep, so say if it's not necessarily that they are struggling with insomnia or stress, but they're still not prioritizing getting enough sleep, what would be

your cell to them for why sleep is so important? It's such an important thing to prioritize. and Dr. Kak, we start with you. Check in with yourself how you feel and how you are interacting with the world around you, with the people you love, the people you work with, and the wider world. Because if nothing else, sleep's important for our emotional wellbeing

and our interactions with others. And we are social creatures. We need interaction with others. We want healthy working relationships. So if you want to feel good, make sure you'll sleep as healthy. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you.

Dr. Shelby, what about you? You will be way more efficient in your daily life overall. You will find that you will be better at doing the work. You won't have to multitask as much. You will just be efficient. You will be less moody, less irritable. You will just be able to focus in general. And it will overall help your health too.

if you want to benefit all the things you're doing during life, make your sleep better. That's it. That is a good. That is a good pitch. Thank you both of you so much for coming on the show. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much to all of you for listening. If you want to find out more about Dr. Kat and Dr. Shelby, their info and the links to their books are in the show notes.

I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. If you want to share it, do far and wide. and make sure you remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcast to make sure you never miss an episode. And if you have a health goal in mind, get in touch. All you need to do is send us a message on Instagram

with your goal and sticking going for goal at the start of the message so we don't miss it. That's all for me for this time. I'll catch you next week. Bye.