Just As Well, The Women's Health Podcast - Trolls Broke My Confidence - Strictly Is Helping Me Get It Back | Karen Carney

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Karen Carney has already changed women’s football forever - 144 England caps, an OBE, and a government review that’s reshaping the future of the game. But now, she’s stepping into something completely different: Strictly Come Dancing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Hi, I'm Jim Harkinson. I'm Claire Sanderson, the editor-in-chief of Women's Head. We have just done our Just As Well podcast And we spoke to Karen Carney Who is just the cutest

She's like a little pocket rocket, ain't she? I wasn't expected to be that petite I don't know why But I loved her She was very, very sweet Wonderful, she's tiny physically tiny but mentally a powerhouse She's an incredible athlete

She was it 144 caps for England So she's the third most capped England player ever So for those who may not be aware she played women's football, she played for Arsenal, Chelsea, she played in the US for Chicago Red Bulls, and now she's a leading pundit for TNT and ITV. But most excitingly, for me, most excitingly, she's on Strickley. She's on Strictly. We need to start a petition to get Claire on Strictly.

She's desperate to do it. Every opportunity. Every opportunity to get me on Strictly. She, how Cameron spoke to us about, she was saying about a confidence actually for Strictly. she spoke really openly about the backlash she received and becoming a pundit in male football because that's just the narrow-minded world we're living in and she said how the effect from that

has knocked a confidence for strictly because of that. People don't realise how powerful their words are in the longevity of how long it can take someone to recover from. She was really open about that. It actually made me quite emotional. She spoke about being partnered with Carlos and how that's going so far and how they're literally complete opposite.

and what she hopes to change for the future of female sports, not just women's football, but female sports as a whole. Yeah, she's a true inspiration and a pioneer, although when I called her a pioneer to girls like my daughter, Nell and your daughter, Mia, who both play football, she didn't like being labelled that, but she absolutely is because she comes from a time when women's football wasn't professional,

and she describes a scenario where she would be training for England in the local park, and dogs would run off with the cone and the water bottles, you know, you just can't really imagine it when you look at how far the lionesses have come now and they're filling stadiums and winning international trophies and awards, etc. And our global superstars

and she comes from a time when they maybe weren't as recognised and had to really hassle and really graft to achieve recognition for the talent that they have. So I just thoroughly enjoyed speaking to her. I thought she was truly inspirational. She was. Hopefully you enjoy this episode as well. Welcome back to another episode of Just as well.

We're very excited because we've got an amazing guest today. This lady's rap sheet is putting everyone to shame. Karen Carney, O-V-E, a former England footballer with 144 caps, making her the third most cap player in English football history. Her career spans some of the world's top clubs including Arsenal and Chelsea and she also played in the US for Chicago Red Bulls and she represented

Team GB at the 2012 Olympics. So just a little bit of a sporting career. Since retiring from the game in 2019 she has led a landmark government review into women's football which continues to shape the future of sport. She's also a leading sports pundit and she co-hosts Long Story Short,

the podcast with Jill Scott. And finally, just as she's not got enough on a plate, she's signed up to strictly come down. Welcome, Karen. Thanks having me. Thank you for being here. It's a real honour, isn't it? It is.

And I'm most excited about the Strickley. I don't know what that says about me, but I am such a Strickley fan. Yeah. Yeah, I went to watch it when the Erema did it. I absolutely love it. Yeah. How are you finding it?

Overwhelming, but absolutely loved it. We did the launch show yesterday. Like, you could see all my fake act. Yeah. I didn't follow the guidelines of not share. and yeah and you smell a digestive bit like

yeah I smell like a cup of biscuit yeah you came in and I said you both smell lovely and I smell a biscuit

so sorry about that but yeah honestly absolutely loving it it's um honestly I've just got a massive smile on my face

it's like such an honour and privilege to be on the show like I've watched it for so long and you like follow it every week

fall in love with it and yeah I can't believe I'm actually on it it's bizarre like you'll be brutal because

when I did strictly I did in 2016 17, something that I had in my favour was because I'd trained, you have a certain baseline of fitness. I struggled with things like Quick Step in the Jive because it's a lot of cardio. Things like boring where you have to hold yourself. I was like, okay, I've got the muscle strength. When it comes to the cardio, the Latin dances, you will fly through because your baseline level of fitness, I mean, all the football games you've played, you've got a really great level of fitness, aren't you? I hope so. I hope so, but my posture's not great. So like where you've probably

said you had the strength but i think that's where i'm really going to struggle just like because i'm a bit like waiting for the boss you know like so i think that's where i'm like straight away i'm already been told like stand up and i'm like god that's and you don't really know you think you're doing something bigger and better and you when i'm a visual learner so i look at it i was really trying to be bigger then i'm like oh no i really wasn't big enough and you got to go again and um but yeah i think hopefully my fitness will come through but like i'm not going to put myself under too much pressure. Like, genuinely, I love the show, and I'm just so happy to be part of it.

And no matter how short or longer it is, I just want to really enjoy it. And honestly, like, I went to a live show last year. I followed it for years and years. And, yeah, it's just an honour. It's brilliant. And before, strictly before any of this, obviously, your career began in football. How did you get into football? Talk us about how it all started for you.

Well, my family's a massive, like, footballing family, huge Bowling the City fans. I was told to support Birmingham. There's no real choice in that. And, yeah, my elder sister, sorry I was saying, she was 12 years older than me, she loved football, but just didn't have the opportunities to play. It was a time where women weren't really encouraged and didn't have the chance to play.

She told me a story once where she was at school and they said to, okay, who in the girls' team, who plays football? And she was like, this is a chance we're going to get a women's team. And she put her hand up and they went, you'll be good in goal at hockey. And like, but she, she loved it. So she didn't have the opportunities,

but she became a referee and a grassroots coach. So she kind of like got me involved in her a footballing family and just started playing really when I was eight. And but luckily my mum and dad were like, we've got to fight. We can't have another kid that just doesn't get the opportunities. We've got to find a way. So I feel very indebted to my elder sister, really,

because like if I was older, I wouldn't have had any of the opportunity. be doing this now. So I feel like really indebted her and to give it everything because she couldn't do it. So, and that's why hopefully I do what I do now is, is that I don't want anyone to ever have those lack of opportunities that my sister didn't have. So yeah. Were you playing at a time when it was fully professional for women? No. No. No. I was, there's so many told stories with me down my local park and, um, a dog wean on my bottle, Nikki McCones and I'm like chasing down and I'm like training for like London 2012 and it's like a dog,

Nicky McCones and like so many, there's this local part where I trained at and they, you know, like dog walkers, they like go at the same time, didn't they? Yeah. And every day I'd have a conversation.

I'm like, I'm mid-session here and I don't want to upset the dog water. I'm like, can you go to the other part of the field? But no, it wasn't fully pro until America. I had the opportunity to go pro when I was like 21, but then I came back and then it wasn't until I went to Chelsea that

here in the UK, it was like fully pro at like 27. So yeah, it came a little bit later to me. Of course, you were training for 2012 with dogs knocking your cones and your water bottle. It just goes to show the inequity between male and female sport at the time because, you know, the male footballers would have been earning a fortune

and you guys were having to hassle. But you'd managed to go fully pro and what difference did that make? I think like anything, if you're given the resources, the structure, you can really kick on. So it's easy analogy is like vicious cycle, really. If you can break the vicious cycle, you make it virtuous. And I think for us, just becoming professional, it just gives the opportunity.

You're not training at 8 o'clock at night. I mean, some of the stories, like we used to train at 8 o'clock at night, and the lights would go off at like 10, and the coach would be like, I want to do a little bit more and put the car lights on. Wow. Yeah, it was mad to put the car lights on. All the parents put the car lights on and just give us an extra 15, 20 minutes. because we loved it.

Yeah. And, you know, people coming in coming from work and they're tired, you know, not undernourished and fatigue and stuff like, you're never going to get the best product. So if you can just give people the right resources and opportunities and I think I was speaking to some of the dance pros the other day, imagine if they didn't have the right dance floor, the right dance shoes, the right nutrition, the right training environment, the right S&C, would they be the best dance pros? No, they wouldn't.

So for us, that's really, really important to get the bug. basics and you know and then kick on from there really and look what's happened now with the women's football you've seen now that give the right opportunities you know you're double European champions and the league's going from strength to shrimp so it really isn't rocket science it took the ladies to do the men's job didn't it in the end um we had um Ellie Kildoon on um club on the said her name on didn't I care and she was obviously she's fantastic with rugby so good she was saying the same thing to us in like I mean she's She plays for the roses now, so she's pro-bably.

She was saying a lot of the women used to have to come off like a nursing shift and train 9 o'clock at night, having to eat the food in the car on the way to training. And obviously, she's fortunate, she's pro now, a lot of the rugby isn't. Why do you think it is with football? It's got a lot more media attention in terms of the female aspect. It's doing a lot. It's growing rapidly, isn't it, compared to other sports? Do you think that's part to do with the media?

I think maybe football has its advantage because of how big it is. You know, it's huge, isn't it? And I think maybe we were just a little bit further ahead in the development, maybe compared to other female sports. But certainly with the review that I did, I know it was around women's football, but my mentality was to create a blueprint for all women's sports because we're all probably feeling the same.

It might be just you're at different points. And football might be further ahead, then it might be rugby. And then, you know, all the sports in women's sports. might be a little bit at different timing, but we'll all be feeling like not being given the minimum standards, you know, not being given the right resources, the marketing, the sponsorships.

So it was a bit of a blueprint, but I think maybe football just had that little bit of a kickstart, maybe because of how big it is from the men's side, and actually we've kind of the brands and the badges that we wear, might have given us that little bit more of a push. But going back to the roses, I think they're incredible. I used to train with quite a few of them. And yeah, and like Emily Scara and Mo, she's incredible Mo, I love her.

And honestly, they used to come in and you could see and they were exhausted from like doing their previous stuff and they'd come in and they trained like warriors. Literally they were like incredible. But, you know, to get them pro as well, like that taking away the fatigue, the pressures of doing everything else. Just focus on what they're amazing at and give them an opportunity and they're incredible people but incredible athletes. But what you need is democracy across all women's sports because the Red Roses are winning everything Because they are fully pro and they have been for some time But they look at the Wales rugby team

And I think they went fully pro last year But they're very early on in the professional journey And they can't compare in performance And then you've got other women's sport It's just not professional at all Yeah, it's frustrating Like can't sit in as women and go And unfortunately

like it's the most frustrating thing when you say you've got to give time time and it's part unfortunately it's part of a journey for women's sports that we're behind and we're trying to catch up and you know the aim is that we all stick together as women in sport and we all try and champion each other

and hopefully keep pushing and elevating each other to get to the point where everyone's pro and we will get there I mean I was at the men's and women's 100 last week and that was phenomenal seeing that I know a few the cricket girls as well. But we're getting there, but unfortunately, it's just taking time.

And for not everyone, people like my sister didn't have the time and maybe other people that didn't as well. But we just got to stick together as one big team. It's that even in school, like there's my daughter, she loves football, and they have options at school or, you know, some of the mates birthday parties would be at soccer clubs and stuff. We didn't have that in that. When I was in school, there was no option for girls to play football.

And even I wanted to play rugby, and it was tag rugby for us. We had to have a little thing around our waist and they had to pull it off. You weren't allowed to be tackled and rest. And you think, why? You know, it's just, it was like they're trying to put people, like you say, in different boxes for different things.

But it's changing now. And people like yourself, like Ellie, like Jill Scott, you've changed that massively. And you now have a platform to inspire other women and, you know, other parents who have little girls who want to get into sport. What would your advice be to any young girls listening and you think, I would like to try football?

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Literally, I know it sounds really cheesy, but I said to my mum, when I was 11, mum, I'm going to play for England. I literally remember it. And I remember my mum just saying, like, she never put any barriers in front of me. Everybody else might have. But she said, if you want it, work hard for it.

So follow your passion and just surround yourself by really good people. And I genuinely believe, if you do that, I think you can get to anything, you can achieve anything that you want. It might be difficult. You might have to build that resilience. But I think that's a good thing as well. Life isn't easy.

It's going to throw challenges at you. But I definitely go after your passion. If you love something and you're obsessed with it, just keep doing it. Honestly, it's amazing. Because it has changed, doesn't it, society? My daughter's nine, and she's a goalkeeper. And she played in a football tournament on Saturday. And there were hundreds of girls there.

And it was an all-age group one, and it was on playing fields where we live in Winchester, and there was matches going on all day, and there was like a two-minute break, and then the next game was going on. And they were coming away with their medals at the end. I think it's non-competitive at that age, so there's not actually a winner of the tournament.

They're just going to win their groups and they get medals. But I did take a step back and look around at this glorious sunny day and think, wow, this wouldn't have happened even five years ago. Even in the last five years, hit has evolved. It's such a rapid... bid rate. And the same goes to rugby actually, because my eldest, he's 13, he plays rugby on a Sunday morning in Winchester, but there's loads of girls' teams down there. So that's growing as well. So it must make you so proud to feel that you were a pioneer in what is now

of... No, I don't see myself as that. I just literally see myself as someone in the ecosystem, part of the team that I think we all have signed up for it in women's sport to try and leave it a better place than when you found it and make it easy for the next person. Genuinely, that's kind of all our jobs. Like, we signed up for probably, I say this, we signed up for women's football for me since I was eight and it's my kind of my contract to make it better for somebody else, make it easy for somebody else. And I get so much joy, even when I see a little girl wearing a football kit, like that,

I got bullied for that. That's success for me, seeing a little girl walk down the street in a football kit. or as you mentioned, going to football camps or going to a football school or a tournament, that's success for me. So we all signed up to it and we just got to keep making it better and better and better. And we're all just one big team, that's how I see it.

Yeah. I saw a little boy, eight, maybe, nine, walking down the high street a couple of weeks ago with Tooney on the Lappishers and I thought that was success. Yeah, I think, you know what, breaking the playground chat up is really important. So I know we're talking about like little girls,

but for me as well, it's boys. you know, they're our future generation as well and to educate and it's incredible. And that is where it stops. I think this generation doesn't see gender, gender, gen Z. No. Well, we watched the football over the summer with my kids and my son celebrated when they won

as loudly and enthusiastically as if it had been the men playing. And he's an ardent Spurs supporter. You know, he sports spurs for the men team. But when he was watching England women's, It genuinely meant as much to him as if he was watching the men's game. It's amazing. I took a step back and thought, well, that's progress. That is.

My husband is still a little bit, you know, in his 40s, a bit. Like, he sort of wanted to celebrate but didn't really. He's still, you know. But that's a great to you, though. Yeah, yeah. You have to raise your kids to, you know, that that success doesn't matter who it is. And that's why I don't think Gen Z, Gen.A, our future, don't see gender. They're just like, that's amazing.

about who it is. Yeah. And we're going to support it. And like that is just so good. So that's great to you though for raising your kids to be like that. We have, when England were playing Spain, so it was it last year the year before? And Mia came down.

She had the England shorts on, but the Spanish top. How did you feel? Yeah, I was a bit like, ooh. And Gorka was like, she's half a gemma. Come on. So yeah, she's, any Spain or England, she's obsessed. Was she really supporting?

I made her support England. Oh, yeah. Love that. I said we can cheer for Spain, but cheer louder for England. Did you enjoy every aspect of training? We've had a lot of athletes on, and they've all said the same in that. Yeah, it was motivations never, it's more discipline you have to have. Yeah.

So it's the same for you. It wasn't always enjoyable. No, hated it. I just loved playing. So any time someone was like, do this, do that. I'm like, oh, so boring. Honestly, it's just the best part was just playing games. Everyone was the same.

We knew what we had to do. You're right, that's discipline. It doesn't mean it's always fun. Like, I don't want to do any defending. You know, I want to do all the attacking fun stuff, the creative stuff. But you're part of the team and you've got to do it. But honestly, I like, didn't, did I like gym stuff? Took me a while to enjoy the gym.

Wow. Yeah, it took me a while to enjoy the gym. And then I really got into it. So I started Olympic lifting when I was 13. I was on quite little. And, yeah, I used to get pushed around quite a lot. So then they took me to rugby training. And they, like, used to just put me on the pads and I'd have a football

and they'd make me run through the rugby pads and just hit me with them. Oh, gosh, just to try and get you bigger. To get stronger and everything like that. So that stuff was quite fun, actually. I like doing that. But sometimes the drills, I was really bored. And I was like counting pigeons or whatever. So, yeah.

It's really interesting. They've all said the same. Every athlete. I've not met one, we've not had a chat with one athlete who's said, oh, my God, I love it. Every day. I wake up and I'm ready to go. They've all been like, oh.

But then when you get there with the team, the camaraderie and you think, I've got to put in the effort, I've got to show up because this person depends on me, they're doing it. It's kind of the team that gets you through, I suppose. The thing that I did enjoy, though, was when we did play the small-sided games

and my coach at the time was Emma Hayes, and she used to let it get really spicy on purpose. She used to, like, really, like, wind you up and say, like, say if one team is losing, she'd go, like, she'd get in your head about losing, and then all of a sudden, someone just gets smashed, and then it would, like, training would just go, like, and then she'd,

like let a dodgy decision go like no foul and it was blatantly like knee high yeah and she'd like no play on and so everyone then was just getting angry and angry and angry and then that's when it got really good fun because you'd like then the heat you and the tails and the training the intensity that was that was good fun though and I guess that's what I actually miss and enjoy that part now I'm out of it and I wish I could do that stuff again were you able to just walk off the picture and forget about the fact that you really hated that person two minutes ago it took about an hour yeah I was listening He lunch was a bit frosty. Men can just switch out of that, can't they?

But us girls. No, I remember stuff from 2019. That's pissed me off. Yeah, off it. I can remember. I'm going to make with the last. I wake up and think he did that in August 2019. I'm going to give him shit for it in the morning.

Yeah. He's like, what? Yeah, he doesn't remember. He's just like, whatever. And then obviously, you don't know your football. Tell us about your approach to lead, you know, this government review. That was mad. How did that come about and how did that make you feel?

It's an amazing achievement and responsibility. Yeah, it's the responsibility part. No, the government rang me up and they were like, oh, Karen, do you fancy chairing a review into future women's football? And I was like, huh? Like, genuinely, I was like, I have no idea what you're on about. Like, they kind of called me up and I was like, I said to my age, I was like, what's all this about?

Like, and they're like, no, no, no, like, it's really serious. And I had the chat with them and I actually said, no, I didn't want to do it. Because it was a big responsibility. Yeah, but massive. And I was like, what do I know? And my family then, like, just humbled me and outed me. They're like, look, you're on TV and you're saying you want to help women's sports, you want to help women's football, but you're not doing this.

They're like proper outed me and come after me a little bit. And they're like, you say you sign up to this, so you've got to do it. And I was like, yeah, but it's a lot. It's a lot of pressure. And I'm working all the time as well. And we're like, no, you signed up to this. You've got to do it. So eventually went back to them and I was like, yeah, I'd love to do it.

I don't know what I was thinking before. And then that was it really. I got this amazing team that they gave me from the DCMS. And basically for about a year, just went and interviewed and spoke to everyone possible within women's football and other sports. And I said to the team, I didn't want to ignore anyone,

give everyone the opportunities to speak to us. And then we put forward some recommendations at the end and it was like this massive dossier. And we kind of, in the end, I made it as quite as simple as possible. Like I said to you guys, I want you to make a blueprint not just for women's football, but for women's sports. And all the recommendations are accepted

and we're still like talking them off as we speak now and it's been a long process and it was, I have to say it's the hardest thing we've ever done. Hardest thing like mentally, because it can also be quite triggering like as well. So, but it was the best thing but the hardest thing I've ever done. I love that it was your family who helped. to get through that as well though.

Like, someone of your calibre and your experience and, you know, your skill within such knowledge of that, you know, subject to still be like, oh, no, no, no, no. And then it's family roots that are like, come on, squat yourself out, you can do it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And to be fair, though, a lot of people, like, I have an MBA and I've, like, studied business and my dissertation was around, like, footballing business and kind of, like, and I've worked in a marketing team for five years that people don't know. I literally had a proper job.

So I did have that background as well to try and really understand it. And then working in the broadcast field, I understood the broadcasting side of the business. So yeah, it was just, but all I did was I just put my sport hat on. I was like, I've got a team. I've got to inspire them. We've got to make change. We've got to make this better. So I was just like, come on team.

And, you know, there's people in the team that had children. And you say to them, do you want your daughter to feel like we did? Do you want your daughter to feel like who we've just spoke to? can we make this better? And they were like, yeah, we can. I was like, okay, let's do it. And so there were some difficult conversations. There was definitely people that were not supportive of the women's game.

And to hear that was pretty tough. But what I've learned is that you can't bring everyone on board. You just got to go with the people that are ready to come with the journey and go with them. And that was pretty cool to see the people that really want to support the women's game and women's sport. So what were the key recommendations for two or three that you made that you feel have been acted upon and have created an impact? Well, one that's recently come out in the press actually is about the salary floor, the minimum standards that I think a women's football player should be paid.

I'm not saying that of a cap, that was never my mantra. But certainly there should be a minimum floor in which a woman should be paid to play sport. Otherwise then they're getting other jobs. They're malnourished. They're coming in and they're for teens. You know, it's in every other business side. but my biggest one was those minimum standards particularly after winning the euros there was this massive hype

and it was fantastic and everyone was going so far forward but I'm like we're still getting changed in toilets but still like I haven't got the right training facilities so it was all the minimum standards that I really went hard on because I was like let's build the sport on solid foundations then when people want a layer on top and really go for it were solid like it's no good building it unsanned like let's get those minimum standards in place that, you know, everyone's good to go then.

And that's what I really push for. So it wasn't an overcomplicated in the end, even that was like 500 pages. A lot of kind of really stripped it back. And that's what I went with. And how have the FA responded? Are they? Everyone, you know what? The last year, we've seen really, really good progress from everybody.

You know, we have task force quite regularly and coming together and, you know, the government holds people accountable. and everyone's been really supportive. And at the end of the day, like, we've seen evidence of what the women's game looks like. So, come on now, like, let's get there. And the stuff that I'm suggesting is the minimum standards. So everyone's been really, really good.

And those layers now are getting built on top of. And, you know, where the game might be in the next 10, 15, 20 years is so exciting to see. But, you know, sometimes I forget I was part of that and led that. Like such as massive achievement. Yeah. There'll be kids that aren't even born yet who will have an well easier ride into a career or a sport, you know, because of what you're doing now. And it's funny when you were saying, you know, making the changes, I was thinking, I mean, I'm 40 now.

When I was 16, I did Holly Oaks, didn't I? And some of the other cast members had kids. And I remember them juggling some single parents, juggling around their kids, having to make a choice of coming in after maternity leave or needing more time. I went back recently just for one app and there was a crash on site. That's amazing.

And I said to the makeup staff, I said, it's a crash, is it like an external one? And she said, no, it's for all of us who have kids. So people could come to work, drop the kids off on the crash. Because I think a lot of employees assume that it's 2.4 children in every household.

There's no single moms, there's no single dads, there's no. But I just thought, how amazing they can come in, drop the kid off, go and do the day's work, pick the kid up. There's not, you don't have to have that choice of all kids or career. They're now trying to blend so you can have both. I think it's brill.

Well, there's a few professional sportsmen who do have children. Abby Ward, one of the Red Roses. She takes her baby onto the pitch after games. I mean, the juggle of being a professional sportsman and having kids must be intense. Just even just taking the time off and then getting your body back to... Yeah. I bumped into, this is a proper name job, I genuinely don't know,

but we were training the head of the World Cup in France. And it was a kid's toy in the corridor. I was like, oh, someone's like dropped their little toy. And then I could hear the kids so I like ran up and like chased this person down. It was Serena Williams with her oldest daughter, Olympia. Yeah, yeah. And Serena was like just trained, like all in her gear. had the baby in her arm and I was like gave her a toy back and you know you're like

I'm like training you've got your she was doing about two like exhausted holding this two year old and like trying to come back from having the I think she was her combat was coming ahead of Wimbledon and I was just like wow like even like she probably had all the money in the world to go and get a nanny and do what she's doing she was doing it on her own and I was like wow what and there's been so many as well like when I played in America it was actually quite common for a lot of the players to have children, but they fought a lot earlier from 1999 to have creches and nannies to come and support them whilst they played.

So it was very common in America, but not so much here. But we're starting to change that now, which is really good. It shouldn't be a choice. It should be embraced and we should be championed everyone else's journeys and supporting them. Especially as it's like the future generation, you want to be a role model to your kids. And if they see you doing something,

Or even like if you're an auntie or an uncle or godparent and they see what you're doing, it's a real confidence boost for them. Is that one day I could do this, you know? I found a video on my phone when my daughter showed me this week. And it was her when she was little, three or four. And it's her on a laptop pretending to type. And then you can hear my voice in the background saying, what are you doing now?

And she's saying, I'm the editor of Woman's Health. Wow. That's what I mean. They see it. and it gives them a visualisation of what they could achieve. Definitely. I'd agree with that. But there can only be what you can see that year.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. 100%. So you, after you retired in 2019, and then you transitioned to be a pundit. Yeah. And you're a leading pundit for TNT and ITV. Yeah.

Tell us a bit about that. It's an intense, a competitive world, actually. There's only so many pundit spots. So even secure one is a dream. Honestly, and to be working with those two is incredible. so I'm really, really lucky. Yeah, it's been a bit of a journey, not going to lie. But I guess when you come out of playing football,

the next best thing is, you know, to try and stay in the game as best as possible. And my route was to talk about the game, really. So, yeah, it's been interesting, though. What's it like, and I asked you this, because Claire's the editor of men and women's health. And when you were announced as the editor of men's health, there was a few.

Yeah. Like, does she know about men's sport? Have you, well, I'm assuming you will have had a few backlash. as every female pundit has. How have you handled that, like mentally? Yeah, I think I had it quite bad about four years ago. That was very, very challenging. But then since then, whether you like it or not,

you have to build resilience. And I think for me, my attitude, again, put my athlete hat on is to be the best version of myself, work as hard as I can, be a great team player. And actually what we learned in football was never to impress your manager or his impress your teammates. So for me, if I'm next to someone like a Roy Keene or an Ian Wright or, you know, whoever it might be, if they're happy with me and they know I worked hard, they know I've done my research,

they know I've done my prep, then that's all that matters to me is my teammates. And that's what I do. The rest, I can't control what people think about me. I genuinely can't. And I've had to just go with that mindset. But Jesus Christ, it has knocked more than anything that's why I wanted to do strictly as well to rebuild my confidence again because of the negativity has, you know, crushed me. I'd be brutally honest. But yeah, I think I love football.

Sorry. So qualified, though, overly qualified. Yeah, no, I don't know. You can always get better. But I love football so much. And it's, I love doing it. It's just for me, such a narrow mind. It's like saying you can't be a gynecologist if you're a male.

Do you know what I mean? When you go, the last smear I had, it was by a man. I'm just putting it out there. No, I imagine if I had to said to him, legs in stirrups. Are you qualified because you've not got to, you know what I mean? It's just so narrow-minded and I really feel, I mean, I'm grateful that you're doing things like that. I really am because, again, growing up, you never saw it. No.

And it's just, I find it really narrow-minded. And like you say, a friend of mine used to play football. a long time ago and he said similar that he said the coach, the captain, the captain I always used to say the small badge on the front is more important than your name on the back and it's about sticking with your team

as opposed to thinking it's all on you because it's not, you're all in a group, you're all doing it together and your teammates will have your back and they will support you and like you just said as long as you're all happy collectively that's all that matters.

Yeah, because if we trust each other we'll have better on-screen chemistry and we'll have fun and you feel safe and you know each other's personalities but also it's very similar to sport when you're doing the punditry you've got to know each other's strengths you know if you're more visual or you're more analytical or if you're more one-liner and you've got to give each other time and space to do that when there's one minute 30 and you've got to go through three goals and you've got to get everybody in and it's you've got to be fair and then you've got to be able to do it to the audience you have to be a team player if you're not it's a you know that's where you it's not good and you want to be that and you want to have fun with your

team mate so I do take I treat everything like sport if I'm honest but I am lucky I work with some amazing people that's where then and amazing people that I work with and it's a joy so when there's difficult moments they would have been through it as well whether that's gender specific or not you know male pundits get hit you know with a lot of abuse as well so we're all in it together I mean, if we're one family, and then we're stronger together. I don't know anyone in this business who hasn't. You've got it with men's health, didn't you?

Yeah. I've found people trolling me and, yeah. If you put yourself out there on a public platform, there are idiots who are going to entertain themselves because they've got nothing else in their shit lives and just go out and criticize people and try and take people around. The first time I heard you swear on that. Well, you know.

You've got to be like them cars. Yes. But he did it with a smile as well, which is funny. Like, you had a lovely smile and so, so he's quite endearing. Yeah. But because the way you described panditry to me then was stressing me out. Like, oh, you've got 90 seconds and there's all three, you've got to talk and you've got three goals. Yeah.

How much preparation must you do to be as clued up as you need to be to come up to produce those salient points off the top of your head? The analysis part at half time for me, any like visual stuff, analytical stuff, is my favourite. Like, there's, there's a, I mean, it's probably not rocket science. I like patterns and there's probably a certain neurodiversity towards me. So I like the patterns. I like the analysis. That's, that's actually easy to me.

Yeah. I can see it. I can see things. I can read a game so quick. And that's a, that takes a lot for me to say that with confidence. But it's taking me a while. I can read a game ridiculously well. So that actually is fine.

Seeing a goal, I can break it down like that. I guess it's the stuff beforehand. and the topics around it where I'm like, I don't really enjoy that. I don't really enjoy, like, talking about the managers and whether they've done things well or not. I just want to do the game, talk about the game, break it down. That's my favourite part. So at half time, then, that's okay. I don't mind that.

It's just about being really concise so that you guys get in as well and also getting your strengths in. But that's fun, that's live TV. That's where you get your adrenaline. That's similar to sport. And that's probably the bit that you kind of love the most. So talking about live TV, I do want to talk about Strictly. Do it? Because you love Spilly, though.

I do, I do. I want to be on there. I'm just putting it out there. I want to be on there. We'll get you on. Yeah, we'll get them on. I just love it. Yeah, I'd love to.

Yeah, I'd love to. How it started for me, I went to their live show and then it just kind of snowballed. So, yeah, come along. Yeah, I'd love to. We'll see you next year. We'll get your campaign in. I went, I went and watched Gemma, and it was a long old night. And I had my biscuit bar to keep me.

going. But I just love it because there's, there's not many shows on TV at the moment which are truly family viewing. And, you know, there are certain TV shows that you think are family viewing. And then when you actually watch them with the nine-year-old sat next year, you realise actually it absolutely isn't. And you realise there's more sex and swearing. But there's just none of that on strictly. It's just joyous or family fun. Well, they may be behind the scenes. I'm sure there's a lot of bad behaviour. But there might have been an enormous amount of pressure. Like you're someone who's used to dealing with performance pressure.

But goodness me. But not dancing. Not dancing on live TV. Before I did it, I don't really wear heels a lot. You know, the whole dress and heels for me, I remember saying to Ali Ash, I wouldn't even be able to walk down these stairs. I used to dread the other wave at the top. Oh, yeah.

And you're thinking, please don't fall, please don't fall. But what I realise from it is, you've no pressure. because when you, the judge, you'll know when you meet the judges off camera, they're in the slippers, they're so chilled, they're so relaxed. Everything on the Saturday night, it's a performance from everybody. Yeah. You know, I went in week one, terrified of Craig. He gave me a four.

We did the tour with him in the new year. He was a hoot. He was such a laid back, chilled, and you think, ah, okay. So I think if you have that mindset of, it's just to dance. And it's, and Aliash used to say to me, it's three minutes. That's it. Three minutes. It's done.

Just focus on me. Let's have a laugh. And it was from like week three, you kind of think, this is just fun. I shouldn't enjoy it. Is that when it clicked for you? Yeah, because you're never going to do that dance again. No. So once you've done it, you think, on the live show, you used to say to me, partner, this is the last time we're going to do this dance together.

All the week we've had training, all the fun we've had, it ends after this three minutes. So let's, and I'd be like, oh my God, yeah. And you just have a laugh with it. And I wished I hadn't had to put as much pressure on myself. So genuinely, don't have any pressure. Every viewer at home, especially Claire. Yeah. Like that we go to it.

Loving it. Everyone wants people to do well. Yeah. That's what I realised. It was. The Rassel. It has to do well. Like, genuinely.

Like a little click going in a good way. Yes. And do you have a group WhatsApp with them all as well? Yeah. I'm still on mine. That's amazing. Yeah. It's, yeah.

Like, even, we did the show last night. And even like this morning, we were, oh, we had so much fun. Like, and everyone's just so. Because we're all feeling the same. Yeah. We're all like brick in it. And, you know, you're all in it.

And like you said, you just got to rip the band-aid off and just go for it and enjoy it. Like, genuinely, like I say, it's how many millions of people would love to be in the position of being on Strictly? Or even to be able to go to watch it in the live audience. I saw someone yesterday on the show and I said, oh, you look amazing. They were so, they were dressed beautifully. And I've waited 10 years to come to this show. And I was like, wow, like, I owe it to that person to. put on a smile and enjoy it and own it because she's waited 10 years to come to this and I've got

put on a show for her. Yeah. It's like... It's an institution that show, isn't it? It's a situation. Yeah, it's like, I've been a massive fan for it for so long because I'm like, even after games, I'd get in the car and I put the iPad on and I'd watch it the live show. I'm like, can we, can a hotspot someone's internet? Like, I'd rinse mine already. And I was like, oh, can I watch it? And on the journey home, I'd be like, they're going, Craig, why have you given them that score? I'd be kicking off Massively. And, but it's so joyous. It's like it's dark.

It's cold, you know, for the winter and you're like, what's my happy place and it's strictly? Countdown to Christmas. Exactly, yeah. You're like, oh, Halloween or musical or, you know, you're like, this is awesome. So even the theme to when it comes on, just makes you smile.

Yeah. It's just, it is just fun. It's happy. Yeah. It's, I love it. It's a beautiful show. So which dance are you most looking forward to doing? Couple's choice.

I was like, can I do it week one? No, like, no, because I don't want to do the others. It's the one when you kind of hope that they try and put it towards your strengths in the avenue. And you've got Carlos, haven't you? So you're safe with Carlos. He's lovely. He is lovely.

We're so different though. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I think so. Because you know how you were saying there like about heels and my sexie is like scoring a half volley? He's sexy, like obviously he's very... Very blamboyant, isn't it? He is and he's like so...

He's like, we were laughing. Like he like watches downtown Abbey and I'm like and he speaks like and I'm like I watch Peaky Blinders and like I level and like I said to him can you can you try and do a key pop like keep the ball like because I take a mini ball with us as my calming mechanism and he literally it was like a trampoline it hit him and he went bang over there nearly broke something and I was like oh my goodness so you've got to get to at least 10 we're going to get you to 10 key pops and then you know if I've got to learn eight hours of dancing every day you can't at least learn to try and kick the ball properly.

And it was the most beautiful kick I've ever seen in my life. It was pointed. It was an leg stretch. I was like, oh my God, we're so different. But when you put it like that, that's another thing you have to remember when you do your dances. Because you're not a professional dancer, none of the celebs are.

No one expects them to do incredible, the same way you wouldn't expect Carlos to go and play football. It's kind of like, that's the pressure I think you take off yourself as well. It's that you've had essentially five days. is to learn a routine and be critiqued on it. No one's going to expect, you know, top. We couldn't do any lifts in our dances.

Alias couldn't really lift me because I was like, so... You're supposed to try and lift yourself onto them. Okay. And I used to just throw myself there. Catch me. So I think we had about two lifts throughout the whole series and we'd watch all the other couples do these like incredible spins. But I just, I had a fear of being dropped.

I mean, it's a really bad fear, yeah. It's a legit. Yeah. But you'll be fine. You'll be, because you're like, you're strong as in you'll be able to push yourself off. I'm so, yeah. I'm excited.

I'll be rooting for you. Thank you. We will. It was the goals in, aren't we? Yes. We definitely will. Yeah. We're Diane Buswell fans in our house because we put Diane on the cover of

a woman's health years ago. Not four years ago. My daughter fell in love with her. So we always vote for Diane, but we'll be voting for you as well. Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Before you go, we can't not ask you. You have a hugely successful podcast.

with Jill Scott. That's brilliant. Yeah. What's the dynamic like between you two? Again, we're so different. I'm so awkward. And like, she's just the most beautiful, funniest person you'll ever meet.

And you guys have met her, I'm sure. But she's so funny. Like, she'll always be, like, I'm usually on time and know how to get there. She's always running late. But then comes in and gives you a coffee, and you're like, oh, it's all confused. And then, like, she kind of, like, takes control.

And you're like, okay, Jill's in. China so I just usually sit back and we just take the mick out of each of all mainly Jill takes the mic out of me but she's like I've known since I was 14 and she's the most loyal person I've ever met I'd never want to let her down and I know she'd never let me down and you know like the greatest thing from football is is when you play football with your team but they're your mates and like literally I know 38 so Jill's been in my life for how long and like I'd do anything for us. I'm really lucky that football's given me my mates as well.

I've got to travel with them. So absolutely bitty bonus. It's the matcha or the three ensemble Cicephora that I just need to denichy who energize so much. It's the ensemble. The form of standard and mini-regrouped. Hello, Ben. And the embellage, too beau,

who is practically pre to donate. And I know that I'd love these offrary. But I guard the summer Fridays and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. I'm just the most beautiful ensemble the Cado of the Feds. It's at this is Shephora.

Summer Fridays, Rare Beauty, Way, Cifara collection, and other, part of the vits. Procurrevee you form and mini, regrouped for a better quality of pre. On link on Cifara.com or in magazine. Look where you meet? Your vest.

Honestly, it's in Atlanta. Yeah, and because we live, like, she's in Manchester and I'm in London. Like, when we do the podcast, I forget this camera zone. It's just like catching up with my mate. So it's actually really nice because if we scheduled to catch up as mates,

it just wouldn't happen. So we have to do it through work, but it's wicked, so I'm buzzing. It's great that the two of you have got such. I mean it's not pressure for you but as far as we go you're just literally changing things for so many women and girls

pundits, podcasts professionalism you've genuinely done it all you should be so so so so proud yeah well we keep going though don't we so yeah we keep making things better and keep that's the motivation

yeah but we keep on meeting women on this podcast that make us feel quite inadequate don't we? No, I was reading the intros are like oh well look what they've achieved I found out that the day Jewelieper's just turned 30. Oh, and I thought, oh, Christ, she's done all of that.

She's just turned 30. Right. Oh, okay. But one last question, because I'm interested, if you could see women's football 10 years from now, what top three changes would you want? Oh, top three. It's weird.

I do think about that a lot. If I was to tell you three things now, but I think they could be done quicker. Oh, okay. So I'd never ever say where I want women's football to go because I don't want to put a ceiling on it too early because I think we can get there even quicker and even better. So I never want to say, oh, in 10 years I'd like it to be here

because I'm already putting a limiter on it. I think we could get there and do it. I like that analogy. So I'm like, I don't know, if we all do it together tomorrow. Yeah, we can, who knows where it could be in 10 years? Because if you asked me 10 years ago, would I have said it where it is now? so why would I put a limiter on it or box it already? No, hell no.

So, yeah, let's keep it open and just every day we keep making it better, right? Chipping away? Yeah, 100%. Oh, well, thank you so so much. Thanks for having us. Pleasure. And I'm a sick of fans of you both, so thanks for having me on. It's a bit of a pleasure.

And you got here in the midst of a tube strike as well. We found away. And you found away. A bit late. Sorry about it. I know, I was as well. It's only you on time. I know, I know.

Even though I lived the furthest away as well. So good for me We've got some quick fire question Oh right, okay These are a little These are fun aren't they Okay So don't me to do that

Yeah So these are questions That we ask every guest At the end So Jamer and I Are stacking up our dinner invites Because we're cutting to your house for dinner Okay

So what are you going to cook for us Oh Well I'm vegan So it won't be meat Fish or dairy I'm done it Yeah

You're okay I would probably You know what though? I'd probably just take you to Giggling Squid. Nice. What I'd take you out? Hi. Yeah.

They do like these amazing starters. Like I'm the terrible cooks. I think I'd just take you out and we're just chatting. I have fun and no stress about cooking. So it'd be like spring rolls, the sweet corn fritters and then any type of main that you wanted and I'd get you some ice cream on the way home. Lovely. How are you for hot food? I'd have spicy.

Medium. Medium. I'll take that. I'll take. Yeah. I'll take it. What about you? Oh, I love it really spicy.

Okay. Yeah, you can have your own dish. Do you get that when you have too much chili sometimes? It makes you hiccup. Yeah, you can have your own dish then. Yeah, we'll stick to mild. What's the last thing that made you belly laugh? The last thing that made me belly laugh.

It's got to be Jill, hasn't it? Something she said. I probably won't say it on here. Yeah, she makes your belly laugh. So you go on to a desert island for a year, and you can only take one thing. What would it be? Football. Football. That's the first time we've had that, didn't we?

Yeah, we've had... Probably call Wilson. Yeah, you could draw a little face on it. You can choose one type of exercise to do forever more. What is it? Running. Running. Yeah.

Coffee or wine? Oh, I would go coffee now because wine's amazing, but I feel terrible the next day. So I'd rather feel better. I mean, if I could drink wine and then have coffee the next day, that would be the ultimate. But isn't Jill a coffee for shenada as well? It's so annoying going for coffee for her because you have to have a certain app which tells you what coffee machine and she'll only go to certain places that has a certain coffee machine and a certain and like I will just drink anything. It's like rocket fuel for me. If I'm tired, just get me a coffee.

She won't know and we'll walk miles to find the right coffee. And I don't know the difference. What is difference? She'll go in and then the one time I've been with her, went to this coffee place and the guy was, literally like this giving her the coffee because he knew she was like into coffee and he was petrified to give her a coffee and she was brilliant, she diffused it.

She said, oh, this is amazing, you know, Jill's like but he was literally like that, like bricking it, giving it to her, I was barely laughing. But yeah, she's a coffee snub, I'd say. Because someone was telling me recently that they have like coffee world championships, like barista world championships where they have competitions on the designs and the foam and the texture.

I mean, there's a real art form. It is. He's on to something. I'm not you. Just give me a filter. Filter from Pratt, 99pence. Exactly. That'll do me.

And finally, what's the one thing someone listening today could do to make themselves feel better? Go and have a coffee with a friend. But not Jill Scott. Not doing. Yeah, or a water. No, not deal.

No, go and just like, I think we can all be there for each other. And I think that's really nice in just sharing and checking on everybody. Like, just go and do that and just have some time away. I think that's how I just I would just go and have a coffee with you and that makes me happier so maybe someone else can do that

and it's good coffee well thank you so much for joining us we've loved that and good luck on strictly we will be watching it go out of it thanks so much for coming too thank you thank you so much rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door expertly cleaned and folded so you could take the time once Spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time you.

Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. Said you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rince, it's time to be great.