KGCI: Real Estate on Air - Holistic Success: Mastering Energy, Vision, and Feminine Leadership with Debrena Jackson Gandy

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Summary:Debrena Jackson Gandy, a bestselling author and transformational speaker, discusses shifting from "hollow success"—the grind of the "rat race"—to "holistic success" rooted in joy, flow, and intention. She explains that true leadership requires increasing one's energetic capacity and moving beyond simple goal-setting to operate at the level of vision. Listeners will learn how to debug "love lies," prioritize sacred self-care for the spirit, and lead with high integrity to eliminate chaos in business and life.

Hi, everyone and welcome to Women Who Rise. I'm your host, Heather Manzi. Today, I'm thrilled to have Debrina Jackson Gandhi, a nationally bestselling author, transformational speaker in one of the country's most respected voices on women's empowerment, sacred self-care, and holistic success. With more than two decades of experience and over 5,000 client coaching hours, she has built a powerful body of work through Mastermind's Unlimited, the Love Academy, the Juicy Woman lifestyle, and her signature, holistic success, and Juicy Woman University programs. She is known for teaching woman how to move from hollow success into lives designed with joy, flow, ease, and intentional abundance, blending spiritual principles with practical business strategy. Her books, sacred pampering principles,

All the joy you can stand and the love lies have impacted audiences worldwide and established her as a leading thought leader on feminine leadership, relationships, and transformation. Welcome to the show, DeBrina. Hello, hello. It's so good to be here, Heather, and see you again. I miss you. I miss you as well. I love that our history goes back a ways. You and I got to be a trustees nominated, or I should say, appointed by the governor of the state of Washington, each to our own individual terms serving on the board of a community college. Yours up in, you know, northern Washington there, mine down in southwestern Washington,

and it just was such an honor. And it's amazing the people that you got to meet doing that. But I was always so incredibly, you know, just taken by what you. were up to, I saw you were publishing books, and it seems you were just absolutely exploding in the last several years. So I'm really excited to dive into this conversation. So one, I just wanted to talk about when you look back at your early kind of formative years, you know, what did maybe your first interaction in the world as a, you know, person on a job or, you know, just interacting with the public, what did it reveal about your gifts, your purpose, or the woman

that you were slowly becoming even before maybe you had specific language for it at that time? Yes. Oh, that's a great question. Well, I would say that probably goes back to about fifth grade, which was about age 10, which is pretty young. But that is when I would say my awareness, my curiosity, my noticing's, my being a much more closer observer of humans and life and how we do life and what shapes how we turn out and what kind of life experience we have. Everyone wants an optimal rewarding experience. Well, why is that not what occurs for everybody? And I started asking myself, you know, even in fifth grade, you know, what are the inputs, the factors, the influence,

that have a person, have a joyful life, that has them feel fulfilled, and what has, you know, what are the inputs and influences and what has a very different experience that may be very painful or pain filled or, you know, avalanched under circumstances. And you can be in the same family because I'm like, wow, you can be on the same street, you can be in the same family and still have very different experiences. What shapes? and influences the experiences we have in our lives. So I would say even in elementary school is when I started, you know, pondering those questions. I would say part of it, too, is my parents who are both political leaders, business leaders, very influential in Thurston County where I grew up, would bring me along to events. And I would meet a lot of amazing people in the political arena, in the educational arena, in the higher ed educational arena, in the community. community. And I think that probably stimulated the questioning. I was just around so many amazing people because of the circles my my mom and dad moved in. I love that. And it's, it's really informative that, you know, you started to create who you were already from this young age and you can actually

look back and kind of see that that, you know, that that was a budding development. And I do think it kind of goes back to this concept of, you know, who you are surrounding yourself, with who, you know, the influences you have, they really do create and help to develop maybe what you find possible for yourself. And you saw that, you know, their ability to be interactive in the community, their ability to make a difference, their ability to use their voices. And I remember you've shared some about that. I've seen posts where you were celebrating what your parents were able to do in and around their community. that is extraordinary. And so just being able to see that that created an opening for you and a way that you could view yourself in the world and start to grow that. Was there a moment when you realized that you were being called into a bigger life, one rooted in purpose, alignment, and impact?

Or did your rise unfold through a series of spiritual or intuitive nudges? I'd say it's both, but I remember, you know, me mentioning, you know, age 10, fifth grade, I started wondering, did other 10-year-olds have the same kinds of thoughts and and ponderings and inquiries, you know, that I was having? And it felt like there was a larger assignment for sure that I could sense in my belly even. then. And it was probably in middle school and then into high school where this whole, what we would now call the human potential movement, if I would have had the language then, I would have known that that's what was awakening in me was curiosity about that. You know, humans and how do we maximize and optimize our potential while we're here on the earth. But the early stirrings were more

so showing up in that my schoolmates would come to me and want advice. And I would share the advice, you know, their peer, 11, 12, 13 years old. And I'd say, come back and let me know how it goes. So they would come back and say, oh my gosh, it worked. It was effective. Thank you so much. And it kept happening over and over. I'm like, wow, these things kind of be working out pretty well here. And I thought, well, maybe it's just middle school because, you know, we have so many questions and it's a transition time. So then I get to high school. And the same thing was happening. And I said, no, there's a perspective I have that I am speaking from. And it doesn't seem to be that common. And it's been very helpful for my high school colleagues and friends. And so those were the stirrings of

there was some gift, you know, kind of emerging and desire to contribute to people. And And it working more times than it didn't, what I was recommending, suggesting, or offering. I love this, that you can see that you really clearly had this sort of creative, intuitive gift for being able to see and perceive the path forward for people that they themselves could not see. This is obviously incredible. Yeah, and this is obviously an incredible thing because, you know, again, if they cannot see it, they cannot enact it. they cannot reap the benefits of that. And so that just clearly shows that, you know, you have this wisdom. If they can, if people can tap into it, then they can gain. So I love, I love hearing this because I know some of what has then happened next in your life. I have seen you just reach

incredible goals as, you know, a real trendmaker and person who is obviously possessing wisdom in our media world. So you teach you. that real transformation requires shedding old beliefs, what was one of the biggest challenges you faced on your rise and what mindset or belief did you have to release in order to move through it? Hmm. I haven't, you know, I am asked the question about your biggest challenge or obstacle you overcame.

Yeah. And I don't have anything that kind of lives in my brain. brain quite that way. But I would say just in general, part of the ongoing journey is, you know, new level, it might be speaking to, you know, 500 people versus 50, okay, new level, okay, contract that's 10,000 versus 1,500, new level. You know, so there's all these new levels that life presents us with, personal life, business career. And at each level, there's like, do I have what it takes? Am I equipped?

Am I ready? You know, can I hang? Can I deliver? But I think those are good. It's not imposter syndrome. It's new level that I haven't been at before. And so now there are some aspects of myself that yet may not have emerged or been tapped on that now get to awaken and activate.

And because it's new and this new, whatever that's showing up, it hasn't. been on the scene before, like, there's a nervousness. It's a newness. So I, so I have all kinds of stories about, you know, those kinds of processes. Um, but that's what- I love that already because you're, you know, by saying it's not imposter syndrome, because this is a major buzzword in, you know, the world of entrepreneurship and growing businesses and, you know, you're constantly really stretching yourself and this, uh, this discomfort that we need to, you know, necessarily move through. A lot of times, I love also that you framed it as nervousness. It can be literally excitement, masquerading as a fear, but the fact that you already have kind of reframed that for me,

just in saying, it's not that you don't necessarily have the attribute, you just may not have tapped that yet. And yes, you're having some discomfort, perhaps, or excitement or anticipation around the idea that you're about to use a new skill or a skill which was latent, but you just haven't been using that yet. I love already just your framing around that. Well, and it's, and there's skills, but then sometimes it's, it requires more of your energy. It requires more of your capacity. It requires more of your heart. So skills is kind of a tactile, um, visible linear. Yeah. And, and, and yes, the skills will often need to up level. as well. But the pieces I think that cause more of the butterflies in the stomach, do I have what it

takes at this new level, I think are the presence and energy and heart and being sight of things. Yeah. And then when there, it becomes your new altitude. But then here we go again. And there goes the cycle again. We keep elevating and elevating. So I remember a time. when I had started my consulting company. I was new to Seattle, grew up in Lacey, closer to you, went to Southern California for college, worked in Southern Cal for a couple years, then came back to Washington State to be an officer in my family business. And after I transitioned out of that position, five years later, I started my own company. I looked at, and this was very nontraditional. Usually we have a degree in a certain area, and that's what our line of work may be.

Well, I looked at my gifts, talent, skills, and abilities and concluded that at that time, 1995, that the way my mind worked and processed that an organizational development consultant was what was the word for my natural gifts and talents. I did not have an OD degree from Pepperdine. I had business administration, but I self-proclaimed, that I was going to be an organizational development consultant. And I was really great at it. And very soon into my new business, I was competing with OD companies that had been around for decades. And I was brand new, still in my 20s.

So that is very counterintuitive to do it that way and against the grain. But I always have tended to think outside of whatever, whatever the traditional norms have been, not because I'm trying to be divergent or a disruptor, none of that. It's just whatever the edges have been, my mind tends to be outside of them in the areas of possibility versus the familiarity. Yes, because you might think of one thing as logic. And in fact, what you did was more logical because even though it wasn't conventional, it was the wisdom that you had. And I'm listening to you thinking, okay, so at, I'm getting this, you know, because at 20-something, mid-20s, early 20s,

you already just staked, you know, staked a claim on, I may not be fully, you know, have the traditional education path for this job, but I'm going to go create this consultancy, which is really a standalone entrepreneurship, and I'm, you know, and I'm going to rock and roll at it. And I can only imagine that that must have set the stage for understanding how well your intuitive wisdom was working in going forward on any other ideas that you might have had later. Because you can see not only did you do that, but in fact, you were describing great success at it. Right. Well, that's why in my second book, you mentioned my books, my second book, I taught quite a bit about what I call G.T.

Gifts, talents, skills, and abilities. Because oftentimes, you know, we have a career or an advocation or profession, and then we fit ourselves into the options available. And I did a reverse engineer

where I said, well, what are my GTSAs? And then now what options out there would be the most accurate language to describe who I am and what I'm bringing? And that's why I think, you know, my life path is unfolded, it unfolded the way it has. So even calling myself a transformational speaker and coach, that goes back to the 90s when people were not using that language. Now, 25, 30 years later,

it's become a buzzword and actually become kind of homogenized from the original potency of it. And as I meant it when I started to use it. But motivational speaker, inspirational speaker was the familiar popular language at the time. And when I looked at my gifts, talent, skills, I said, I really bring a transformational lens to things, like Caterpillar to butterfly kind of lens to things. And motivation really isn't accurate, even though I know that's what everybody, that's the category. And I started to find myself a transformational speaker. Then as I went on, I realized, well, transformational coach.

Because again, that same lens and perspective is in me. And it's a transformational one, not just a motivational or inspirational. although those may be one of the bright products. So that's kind of been, Heather, how I have moved, you know. I remember when I had my direct selling team, and while I had my full company and business, I also became part of a direct selling team and became the leader or was the leader. And instead of calling the women on my team salespeople or consultants, which was their

functional title, they were called CEOs. because you are the head of your business and you've partnered with a company providing product. You've partnered with the company handling distribution and the marketing, but you are a business owner. So totally different mindset and totally different results. Our production was right up there with teams that were three times our size. And they're like, how is it the mindset? It is the mindset. I love that.

And I love that you touched on that as well. we just did some goal setting yesterday for my real estate company. And it is incredible because, you know, five-eighths of what I worked on was really about mindset because it's setting someone up for success in this next year is so much about how they perceive their own selves in relationship to success and their goals and all of that. Who were the leaders, teachers, or spiritual influences who shaped your, approach to feminine leadership and what truths or principles from them still guide you today? Wow. Well, some are from a distance where they would be role models, where they were not up in my life like my

mentor was, who I'll talk about in the moment. But one of the women that was really affected me along those lines was Susan L. Taylor, who when I was in my 20-somethings and had moved back here to Seattle, she was editor-in-chief at Essence Magazine, a Leading Edge magazine for Progressive Black Women. And she had this section in her magazine that became the reason the magazine took off under her leadership. So instead of just being about fashion and celebrities and home decor and recipes, She inserted a section called In the Spirit back in the 90s. So we're not yet in the late 90s and the 2000s yet where now we're talking about yoga and mindfulness. This is pre all of that.

So here comes this woman talking about meditation and talking about self-care, self-care. And the things that she was writing in her article that was always at the beginning of the magazine were very intriguing and very soothing and very enlightening. So from a distance, Susan L. Taylor, who I now know personally, but from a distance, she was one of the people that was a catalyst and a stirer and a stimulant of my spiritual development and my spiritual path. Then up close, starting at age 26, I had a mentor who is someone that was in higher education, Dr. Maxine Mems, who actually was the founder of the Evergreen State College, Tacoma campus. There's also the Olympia camp down there in Thurston County. And she was my mentor until she passed away last October, 28 years. And she was 96.5. So she,

the reason I asked her to be my mentor is because she was the freest and most truth-telling human I'd ever met in my life, in any space I'd been in, and I'd been in many. And because of her spiritual, the force that she represented, the spiritual force that she was, she was one of Maya Angelou's best friends. She was one of Oprah's closest confidants. Tony Morrison, I mean, just the company she ran in, in addition to being my mentor and being executive director of a college for 15 years, she kept challenging and stretching me constantly. There was things she would say to me that I wouldn't get until 10 years later. It was that like ahead of things.

That's incredible. Or thought. So she definitely up close and personal had a lot to do with that. So those are two names that, you know, right off the top kind of come to mind. I'm also a voracious reader. So, you know, I have a. a spiritual library that is near and dear to me, that as I have come across potent spiritual teachers that embody that which they're writing about and talking about, teaching about,

you know, that book gets put in my spiritual library and is treated with the utmost care. Never would it go to a secondhand bookstore for resale or would it be given away or even someone allowed to borrow it. It stays in my spiritual library. And I come back and read it again in different seasons. Because, Now I'm a different person, and what the book set communicates to me is now going to be different. So, yeah. I love that. I love that.

And it speaks to something that I find is such a consistent vein among great leaders is that, and what I would consider great mentors and great teachers, is that they themselves are wonderful students. They never stop participating in learning. And like much to your point, the person that's, learning today is very different even than the person yesterday or a season ago, as you put it with seasons. Yes, because one of my coaches that I adored at one point said, I'm not the same man I was 15 minutes ago. We really do regularly alter ourselves and we're absorbing new information all the time. What an incredible also relationship that you were able to have with someone

who sounds like just a profoundly, you know, amazing human being. And the fact that you had this proximity to her for such a long, almost three decades, such a long period of time is absolutely amazing. And one of the things that you said that I really kind of caught on to was that you said she was constantly stretching you and challenging you. And isn't that really sort of the best of all teachers that she did not allow you to simply be complacently, you know, in one spot. And maybe she just recognized you were a person that would benefit from this or that could

be stretched in that way, but also that she was someone that would call out something greater in you. I wanted to ask you, you often speak about living in flow, ease, and intention. What habits or daily practices helped you shift from striving in a more holistic joy-centered model of success or into? Yes. Well, you mentioned holistic success when you were sharing my bio, and that's actually the name of my signature program, Holistic Success,

and it's a 12-month Whole Life Elevation Program that I debuted last year, and it became the successor to another 12-month program that I was doing for five years. And I contrast hollow success and holistic success. holistic success. And hollow success is what we've been used to when on the hamster wheel of, when we talk about the rat race and we talk about the striving and the chasing and the pursuing, that's all in the hollow success paradigm. And it's what's prevailed in our country. It's what traps us and entraps us that we're always trying to, you know, find peace inside of this paradigm. And really, when I talk about holistic success, I'm going outside of that matrix. I'm going

outside the edges of hollow success to another possibility. And it's actually, you get there by elevating. And so holistic success is where you are first and foremost, among many other things, focusing on managing your energy differently. While in hollow success is very much a focus on time, saving time, making time, time, time, and we can often feel like we're always behind the eight ball. We can often feel like there's never enough time. And that's part of what keeps the scurrying and the chasing and the never just resting and peaceful and content because we always feel like there's never enough time to do all I need to do. So there's this frenetic energy. While in holistic success, we're like, let's take a look at your energy.

How are you using it? Where are you using it? On what are you using it? And is it producing fruit? Is it aligned with what you say, matters most to you. In holistic success, instead of just being goal-driven, which is very much part of the Western American hollow success model, it's about now creating a vivid vision and then coming back to the goals that support that vivid vision. And so we don't start with goals or a plan.

We start with vision, which is a different starting place than most of us have been taught in school and higher ed in the workplace. Also, it honors how you are made as a woman. Our spirit as a woman is different from the spirit of a man. They're different and both beautiful, but they're not the same. So how do I conduct myself during my day? How do I interact? That honors my spirit, honors my intuition, which is a very active part of a lot of the spirit of women. How do I beautify my environment, right? Because my spirit loves beauty and have, you know, my flowers. And so all of those things are part of the consideration.

My relationship with my body and hollow success, you know, body is a thing to care for, take care of workout, dress, and eat, and clothe. While in holistic success, my body is literally, a divine living temple, not because that just sounds really cool, but because one of the books of truth, one that I live by called the Holy Bible, says, do you not know your body is a living temple? So let's align with what's true. And that's part of the holistic success model. So there's all these distinctions and characteristics that are part of that. But there's an unlearning because that hollow success model has prevailed for centuries. And in

our own lives for decades. So there's a detox and a clean out of those old beliefs that have us in that for us to be freed up to now plant and install new programming and new coding and the beliefs that give rise to the holistic success experience of more fulfillment and more spaciousness, more connected to your joy, a full spirit, all. those wonderful byproducts of that framework. That is amazing. I loved how you talked about energy and just this different conversation than time and productivity, but caring for your personal energy. And I think most of us can relate to this idea that if you're at work trying to perform and your energy is lagging, not just in terms of how much energy you have, but the kind

and how you feel and maybe how you perceive yourself in that role, that this could be potentially really a great thing to work on and be able to reframe and change so that you can show up, empowered, you know, desiring to do whatever you're up to as opposed to feeling like a taskmaster or that there's some necessity of how your day is supposed to go. This is amazing, and I know that we're barely scratching the surface to the concept, but this is something new that I'm learning from you, and I love it.

We're known, or sorry, you're known for redefining self-care as sacred. You just talked about that, actually. Min ago your body is a temple and essential. How do you personally honor your well-being? It is something that I ask of all of my guests because of this idea. that you are able to not only have attained some, you know, very unusual and wonderful measure of success, but also that you're holding that. You know, you are still there and you are still growing. And so, you know, what what do you personally do to honor your well-being while leading multiple businesses,

initiatives, and programs? Yeah. Well, my first nationally-firm, published book, Sacred Pembering Principles, actually came out in 1997. And I introduced the notion of sacred self-care, and it took, what, 25 years before it, like, entered into the vernacular of women and became something that was in our daily language. But what I realized in looking at how, excuse me, it was showing up in the contemporary space, was treating self-care more like certain things that you do because you deserve it and you earned it and you're worth it and these activities. And that was never, never, never the intention when I wrote this book. It was about how do you, instead of being caught in the rat race, depletion, getting exhausted, emotionally wiped out,

and all those things that are byproducts of this hollow success model, is there not. another way to live because when I looked around, I saw that happening a lot with people, people feeling overwhelmed and working family households and passing like ships in the night. And I'm like, there's got to be another way. And so what I talked about was sacred self-care, which means care of your spirit, not just your body, not just your mind, but as a tri-dimensional being, mind, body, and spirit. and spirit is something that we don't handle well in this culture because it's a materialism culture, which negate the non-visible, even though that's the source of the visible.

So this notion of sacred self-care is now bringing into the center of the conversation is the spirit as well as the mind and the body. And for most of us, our IQ was pretty low about what care of our spirit requires. So that's what sacred self-care is about. And then as I have continued to grow and develop, which has been one of the themes that we both have been talking about in this awesome podcast, is I realized that it really isn't about just women changing the things they're doing and prioritizing their own needs. instead of being last or least. It really was about helping women step out of an old consciousness of martyrdom, of deferring self, of all those beliefs that fed the behaviors and introducing them into helping them elevate because the holistic success consciousness is higher than the

hollow success consciousness. That really was about a consciousness, a sacred, self-caring consciousness where now the belief system has had an overhaul and the beliefs that we're having us do negative self-sacrifice and all those things have now been cleansed and the viruses have been cleaned out of our inner belief system coding and we're now operating from the beliefs that give us what we call the sacred self-caring consciousness and then out of the consciousness, what naturally happens is the fruit of self-honoring choices. What naturally happens is you have a commitment to your spirit staying full. What naturally happens is you build renewal

into the fabric of your life instead of go, go, go, exhausted, finally take a break three weeks later. That's hollow success. Holistic success says, I'm building renewal and rejuvenation into how I roll on a daily basis, a weekly basis. Let's not wait for vacation and finally my tongue goes out. No, no, no, no. So that is really what I strive to do is be elevating in my sacred self-caring consciousness personally so that when I'm in my classes and cohorts, I'm now able to translate it to my students. But it is a long game. And that's why my transformational programs are 12 months. It is not just a how-to, seven strategies. We're used to the instant. You know, we want the instant gratification. Give me the formula, the recipe, the steps. And transformation doesn't operate on that

kind of timeline. So it takes time to unlearn and clean out and to install and germinate new beliefs. But I really have a vision where in a few years we will have women operating from the sacred self-caring consciousness and no more the martyr, Atlas Syndrome, overwhelmed, overextended, and all the things that, you know, have become too many of the, too much of the patterns we've seen and talked about. So it's an ongoing journey. It's about the consciousness now and creating sacred self-caring women out there in the world and everybody wins when a woman is operating from a sacred self-caring consciousness. I love this. Wow, just absolutely mind-blowing and your framing and how this is explained and how we can understand, I think is so clear and clearly so beneficial to

everyone who has not yet experienced your teaching in this way. What does. What does it? Do you think that, well, and I honestly think you touched on it a bit just now, what do you think that people most misunderstand about women who lead from feminine power, spiritual grounding and intentional joy? And how have you been able to help, you know, others, the world at large, or those you are teaching, navigate those misconceptions? Well, I would just say that, you know, as a culture, the Western American culture that's been built on, you know, three ideologies, not only, but three pillar ideologies of materialism, capitalism, and individualism, those ideologies have often worked against the spirit of humans. And so when we talk about feminine leadership, We're talking about a more recognition of the whole person. We're talking about being present to this human. We're talking about recognizing gifts, talent, skills, and abilities. We're talking about being a listener, not just a talker and a speak-toer.

We're talking about also honoring our intuitive hits that are coming from the energy, our sixth sense that we're also reading. That's collecting data from a different space, but it's as valid as what my five senses are taking in. So it's a win for everybody, but if there's any misconceptions, it's because we are brand new, brand newborns, brand new newborns to this whole space because feminine leadership means you're taking into consideration the spirit, the mind and the body, not just the mind and the intellect and the education and the things that in our culture up to now have been the ones, the things that have defined us. So we're just new on the block to this.

We've got to get our IQ up. We've got to get our spiritual IQ up. We've got to become more intimate with understanding what the spirit in each of us needs and how you care for that. And the difference it makes when you do as a whole being, not just compartmentalizing pieces of your being. And we're seeing the breakdown and collapse and deterioration of that neglect in the mental, the physical, the divorces, the kids. cancers. So it's showing up. And the toll has been great from that IQ being low and the neglect of that very real and causative, you know, level of us. So it's not so much misconceptions. It's more like ignorance or blind spots or absences of understanding. Yes. Which is kind of a little different than just a straight out misconception.

Yeah. Yeah. But men love it. Women love it. It's a win-win. Because feminine... Yeah. So let's tap into that. Do you also have programs for men or couples? I believe you do.

For both, yeah. In my Love Academy, my love relationships pathway, I do work with couples that are either engaged or married. I have love relationship courses for... single and married women. I have a high-level course called preparation for partnership for women who want to be in a juicy covenant marriage in the next one to three years, and it's the preparation program for that. I have a transformational program for men called The Edge, and then I also have a love relationships seminar specifically for men called Mentality. So there's a lot of work for us to do. There's a lot of work for us to do.

among our peers, men among men, women among women. Why? Because so many of the love lies that have infected and influenced how we show up and relate in the love relationship space are along gender lines. And the love lies are along gender lines. There's female love lies and there's male love lies. So that's why in addition to joint spaces, I also have the space. I also have the spaces where I'm working with women, and we're talking about the female love lies and how do we challenge and debunk those, and then what are the love truths? And then the same thing with the men. They are not the same. So they need to be in their own spaces where we can address those very specific untruths that they have had built into their programming. So, yummy stuff.

And, you know, all kinds of new marriages and marriages that were on the rocks that are now renewed and resurrected when they looked like, you know, divorce was the only option. And so just lots of amazing. But that's what transformation makes possible. So, yeah, some powerful stories in those spaces. And yes, I do work with men and I also do coaching with men as well, one-on-one. I love that. So there's so much, I think, really available in this because it's like you said, you know,

there is sort of this, you know, epidemic in a way of divorcing. and of, you know, failed relationships or, you know, people, by the way, seeking love and feeling like they're striking out over and over. They're just not, they're trying, but they're just not attracting or finding the people that they feel will work for them and the relationships that they feel happy. And I've watched numerous friends go through this and just, you know, have a really hard time just constantly going to bat and not for. finding that that relationship will work for them and, you know, only to have one, another, yet another, you know, end in disaster and their hopes are dashed or whatever.

I love that you have ways to address this and that because there is really this gap. None of us are receiving any sort of education on that growing up. We received a lot of linear education. And then like you said, there's this focus on jobs and turned up, you know, in terms of money, exchanging for, you know, or time and productivity exchanging for money, but we're not really doing anything about anything else, and we're kind of just left to wonder. And perhaps if we're attached to either a religion or, you know, some sort of grounding basis, maybe our parents or something, we can pick up a few of these other things. But there is not any sort of regular education around it.

For women who feel called to rise into leadership, what inner work or mindset shifts do you believe they must prioritize before they focus on strategy or execution. Again, just talking about, because our audience is, you know, largely women, entrepreneurs, women in corporate jobs, women who are looking to rise in some way in their lives. You know, and I think we're going to talk about the spiritual in a minute, but, but, you know, how would you approach having them get started in terms of being able to care for themselves in the right way so that, they can maybe grow their business or have that, you know, ability or energy to do this kind of thing. Yes. Well, there's several things that I think if someone, if a woman is interested in rising into

leadership because it does require an elevation and the care of your energy has to elevate because you are as a leader probably generating more output of energy as it goes out to those who you are leading. That's why you might have one leader and 100 followers. That followers focusing on their individual energy and being responsible for that. Well, as a leader, your energy is affecting multitudes or multiples. So care of your energy becomes extra important so you don't get tapped out, depleted, worn out, or resentful for all your giving and offering because it's not going to be an equal,

you know, exact exchange. Number two is increasing one's capacity. So, you know, if I have this container that holds three ounces or two ounces, and then I have this container that holds 16, the capacity of this is different from this. So even if this were filled with water, I could fill up another glass with. two ounces or two one ounce glasses. Here, I could fill up eight two ounce glasses. So my capacity to pour in and contribute is different. So if you are interested in rising as a leader, you want to work on growing your capacity. That's a whole other conversation. My leadership track,

we talk about how do you personally grow your human capacity, right? Your human volume. So, but that is something that often doesn't always expand and then as the energetic requirement, as the leadership requirement changes, as the number of people you're leading, as the demands grow, it's still putting demand on this two ounces and now you're stressed out and you got migraines and you got ulcers because you didn't know that my capacity needs to grow as I elevate and rise in leadership. Also, your communication gets to be more potent and masterful. Every great leader, think about it. They're a great orator.

They may be a great writer, but first and foremost, they're a great orator because their vision and their words are being spoken out to those they're charged with leading. And so building this power center called the throat, which represents power in our energetic body system, you want to develop this throat power, this speak-it-forth power. And it's so interesting when I do forgiveness work with my students, which is an integral part of transformational work, healing work is an integral part of transformational work. I don't treat forgiveness as a religious process. I treat it as a human process and a personal liberation process. And when I'm doing work, with women, their voices have gotten stuck right here. And you have to free up your voice to rise in

leadership because it becomes one of your main instruments of connection. So working on that voice, right, and the bringing it forth, bringing it forth in a way that influences positively influences those who are hearing your voice, your suggestions, your words, your speech, whatever it might be. And you also want to get really good at being able to communicate at the level of vision, which is beyond and higher than the level of goals, beyond and higher than the level of strategy or plan. And the culture parks is pretty much at strategy planning goals. But leaders operate from higher altitude, the vision level, which really comes from the fourth dimension, the not yet manifested level. And that's what vision does. It takes something that hasn't

yet shown up in the three-dimensional physical world, pulls it from the fourth dimension. And then you use this to project it out to those that you are leading. And they say, yet, I want to be a part of it. Yes, count me in. And they're mobilized or motivated based on that. So those are some of the kind of growth areas ongoingly, not just one time, but ongoingly for those of us who want to rise into leadership. It's a privilege. It's an honor. And holding it as a privilege and an honor has it not start to feel like a burden. And part of forgiveness work as well is your compassion needs to increase. So part of increasing capacity is compassion has to increase or you'll get frustrated with people or you'll get irritated with people or you'll get fed up with people, which compromises your

ability to lead them effectively. This is so fascinating and incredible. When you talked about the honor of leadership, it really reminded me of what I've always said is the honor of parenting. It is the greatest honor of mine and my husband's lives. And I do understand and I know and I've heard from people whenever I've spoken about that, that that is something some people find as, you know, or, you know, it sounds pleasant in that way because it's a framing of it that is not perhaps

always spoken out loud, even though parents may feel all the time that it's a huge honor that they get to be in these, you know, people's lives and that they get to be a parent. But it is that capacity, you know, or as you say, that way of thinking about it that allows you in a really hard day when, you know, that kid or child or teenager or whatever is, you know, not forming themselves in the way that you would want in the moment that you can remember, actually, that this entire experiment has been a massive honor. And so talking about leadership in that way, people may go, wow, I'm about to get this increased position on my job. And, of course, the brain just starts running amok and going,

oh my gosh, it's more responsibility. It's all these things. But what you're talking about is creating ways that you can understand it differently and to be able to hold it differently so that you are able to rise to that challenge and not feel the burden and be able to, you know, believe in yourself and the challenge and be able to show up for it. And then also to be able to find that you are capable and to, I love the conversation about capacity.

Because, yes, as a leader, one can feel drained. You can feel, you know, I just did a massive goal training yesterday. I have to say I was exhausted after the four hours of teaching. There are some days, however, I'm totally energized after teaching. So it's really interesting because I've felt both. And I love your conversations around leadership and what you can offer in regard to that. What are your three non-negotiables for, creating sustained holistic growth, both in business and in your own personal evolution?

Non-negotiables? Hmm. Well, I would answer it based on what I'm going to say are my values. Yes, okay. Part of the holistic success framework is your vivid vision and your values are very much. together working as guiding lights that keep you aligned and congruent. And those are two different dimensions of being. And so some of the values that I look to have reflected in whatever I do is one staying connected to my joy. I'm not so much committed to happiness, which can be an emotion dependent upon the circumstances that are going on. But really being in my natural divine state of joy is an ongoing commitment that I have. And so when I'm not in it or something has moved me out of it, like how quickly can I get back reconnected to the state that has been built into my divine

design. So it's not out here to find or I got to find the person to bring me happiness or it's already built into the model. Now let me connect to it. And if I disconnect, how can I get reconnected as fast as possible. Also, integrity, the ability to keep your word and say, do so what you say so, working with people who have high integrity, hiring team members who have high integrity, collaborating with people who have high integrity, and they keep their word. And if they're not able to, they don't just break it and disappear or ghost. They communicate. and we make a new agreement. That keeps a lot of chaos and disorder out of life when you are able to treat your word as a powerful basis of agreement.

And so I have a very high commitment to operating in integrity. And there's three levels, me with myself, me with another self, or me with other selves, plural, called leadership. So at all those levels, moving and operating in integrity, is a really central value for me. And so as order, there was a board that I was, you know, we served on a trustee boards of our respective colleges. And a couple years ago, there was a, I had gone to a fundraiser event. And I wanted to find out more about the board of this organization that I was just getting

acquainted with at their breakfast. And I knew I had a lot of gifts and talents and skills and board experience. and being a pretty influential board member that I could have brought to their board. But as I went to my interview and I was asking very specific kinds of questions, it was obvious to me that there was a lot of chaos, not just transition. I could handle transition and change. That's not inherently bad, but chaos and disorder. And when they said, well, would you like to be a part of this?

I said, well, I'm going to let you all handle some things because I don't want to step into a chaotic situation right now. And they couldn't even argue with me because they're like, dang, you, you've figured that out from how we tried to politically correctly answer, you know. And I said, that's my sense. And they're like, dang, you're right. And I said, so let's move out of chaos and disorder and feel free to circle back to me. And I'm glad to re-entertain the possibility. But knowingly, I don't put myself into chaos and disorder. So, um, So those are some of the values, beauty, there's some other ones as well. But those are some values, because when you're living in accordance with the holistic success framework for life, you are vision led and you're value centered. And you are God-guided. Those are the three dimensions. So that becomes a central consideration, my values. And you're, and you're a value-centered. And you are God-guided. Those are the three dimensions. So that becomes a central consideration, my values. And that. And and my vision. And together, those create, those create a powerful rubric that will keep you on path,

on assignment, on purpose, and aligned. That is amazing. I love it. And such a great way to cap such a great conversation. As we are nearing the end of our time, I want to ask you, as you're stepping into your next chapter, what new impact, expansion, or legacy are you feeling called to create or that you are in the process of, both for women and for the broader business world? And then how can people reach you to access your programs? Yes. Well, it's interesting. As much as someone might, you know, look at my life and say I've done or read my resume and say I've done, I really feel Heather like I am still just getting started. You know, let's say I've got 20 cylinders and whatever people have seen so far has been like 12 of them, me operating on 12.

So, you know, my theme, I have a theme every year of my life, right? Being vision-led is a real important part of this consciousness and this framework I'm talking about. So I have a theme every year. So my theme for 2026 is uninhibited. And this year my theme was let it rip. So when I meet with my mentees, I have 15 of them and we gather them twice a year from around the country and one internationally gathered them here. And I asked them, what is your theme word for 2020 the next successive year? We come back to our next breakfast and say, how did it go in reflection?

So uninhibited is my theme for 2026. And it's not necessarily doing new things, even though, for example, I'm doing a business, cohort for the second year. This year was widely successful. We're going to do it again in our ambitious goal to use your tagline there. Our ambitious goal is 100% increase in the registration. So not that it's a new thing, it was new this year, but in terms of how many businesses come through it, we now have set a very ambitious goal. So that's more so the theme is in my programs, in my cohorts at my live events at my retreats isn't so much new, new, new, but more, more, more in terms of participating in what is already highly effective spaces that are creating some

amazing results in people's lives. So I'll continue my Love Academy. I'll continue my cohort programs for personal transformation and I will continue working more and more with small businesses, especially since the pandemic with so many new small businesses flooding into the market. So how folks can stay connected, I actually have a wonderful gift I would love for your viewers and listeners to access. And it's called the Sacred Self-Caring Woman's Toolkit. And they can get that going to my website, Million Dollar Mentor.net, Million Dollar Mentor.net. And there will be a pop-up that comes. I'm automatically onto the screen a few seconds of being on the site or at the bottom of the very first page, the homepage, you can just go right there and sign up to get your kit and it has three different gifts that are part of it, not one, not two, but three. So that is how to get connected and also by giving us an address to send you your gifts, then we have a way to now stay connected and keep you posted on the different things I'm doing. And on the homepage of my website, there's also,

a lineup of different events that are, you know, hot off the press going on right now. So a lot of ways to stay connected. I have a beautiful website store with all kinds of digital products and audio programs and self-study programs for people as well. So lots of good resources and hopefully would love to stay connected. Fantastic. I love it. Well, DeBrina, it has been such an honor from getting to know you. over the last decade almost to be able to have you here on our show. It has been so, so amazing to

watch your rise, to see the impact you're having, to see the amazing smiles on the faces of your graduates of all your different programs that I've been privy to over the years as I've seen you on socials. And I absolutely encourage everyone to follow, reach out, and we'll attach those links as well for our audience below. I just want to thank you so much. for your time today. What an incredible honor to be able to have you. You are phenomenal, and I know that your gifts are going to share and touch the heart of, you know, people who are watching this show and women who need to find their energy, their, you know, their purpose, their path, their balance, and have that marriage work and all the things. So I just am so excited

for what's possible through what you're up to, and I thank you. Well, thank you so much for remembering me after all the great and amazing people that crossed your path, that you would circle back and say, hey, DeBrina. So thank you for having me on your show. I wish you continued success, all those wonderful things you were sharing with me before the broadcast started. Just so, so, so, so, so happy for you. And I'm just really glad we're staying connected and look forward to us meeting up halfway and having lunch or coffee and being able to hug each other's and do some in-person getting caught up as well. So thank you so much. I love that. You're so welcome. I love it. Well, folks, that's it for today's podcast. Thank you so much for joining us on

Women Who Rise, the Success Podcast for Ambitious Women. Today, DeBrina taught us about living from integrity, the idea that she does not associate or invite into her world, people who are not showing integrity or in the moment when a lack of integrity happens, then that's a, you know, a coaching conversation. But just basically protecting that concept of integrity inside of her business ventures and knowing that things like integrity or getting involved with chaos or whatever are not going to be contributory elements in what she's up to. Number two, cultivating inner joy. She talked about the importance of guarding your own energy, being able to understand and generate and lead from an energy-centric model as opposed to a production-centric or what she calls a

hollow business model in terms of how we lead ourselves, what gets us up every day, what gets us through that day, how we perceive ourselves in the world. And her work around this has put her on numerous TV shows and things like that. As a consultant, it is amazing what she's been able to do. Number three, increasing your capacity as a leader, understanding that there is a concept of capacity there of energy, of ability to perceive yourself or put yourself in the role of leader and being able to have enough capacity to continually give out to others. She talked about if you're talking to 100 people and you're teaching 100 people in a room, you know, each one of those 100 people is only having to think about their own, you know, concept and their own being in that room

and learning. But the leader has to be able to have the capacity to commute. communicate to all 100 to have the energy and growth of that energy to be able to send who they are out and project that knowledge and care and communication to all 100 of those people. So this, as you are growing yourself inside of leadership or your organization or who you're communicating to these concepts, not of the how to, but of the ability to, you know, start from having enough energy capacity and leadership concept inside of your own mind. And then number four, nurturing relationships for sustainability and joy and love. She talked about the epidemic of divorces in just the United States and the fact that you can

nurture those relationships in a different way because we don't necessarily have education around that. So being someone that is a leader in relationships is really phenomenal with regard to DeBrina because she's able to take that intuition on having people be able to create a better symbiotic, joyous, you know, relationship between them. And I know that she's had a tremendous amount of success at having relationships that were thought over turn into something that is thriving and able to create, you know, real joy and happiness for everyone. Her work in that realm is phenomenal. And so again, visit our website to find our episode

guide and worksheet that will help you use these tips to take action in your own life. Like and subscribe and join us everywhere podcasts or streamed. We can't wait to bring you more incredible content every week so that you can rise in your own lives and careers again. Thank you so much. Heather Manzi, signing off.