KGCI: Real Estate on Air - How Interest Rates Influence Buyers and Sellers in Real Estate

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Summary:This episode provides a clear explanation of how interest rate fluctuations impact the real estate market, offering a valuable guide for both agents and their clients. The discussion breaks down the direct relationship between interest rates and mortgage payments, explaining how changes affect buyer affordability and seller motivation. It offers practical insights on how to navigate different market conditions, emphasizing the importance of a strategic, informed approach rather than a reactive one.

Right, a warm welcome, everybody. It's so nice to have you part of today's session. Today, it's Elite Masterminds, and I'm going to be talking about something that has affected so many buyers and sellers over the years. It's something that can almost influence the way people think when they're wanting to buy or sell. But does it really make a big difference in their life? And that's what I want to uncover into today's session. Now, I typically do have one of our top agents. Unfortunately, due to a technical glitch, not having audio, I will run through the session. But within EXB, I always like to recognize the multi-levels of agents that we actually have with us.

And the multi-level of agents, I normally look at it as four different levels of agents that come into EXB. Now, for many people, they look at this and they say, but, Stuart, I only know of two. What are the four? Is there something new that's being uncovered? covered? Well, no, it's not something that's been new and uncovered. It's something that I like to recognize. The first level that I recognize is when somebody joins EXB, when they join the actual company itself. Why? Because you've actually made that little step into a new area of your life. And it's that new area that you're actually stepping into that, well, it needs to be recognized. Why? Well,

you're starting on a new journey. And that's something that can feel a lot of overwhelming. So, It's always nice to get that recognition when you actually step into the world. The second is when you actually do a transaction. I remember ringing that bell every time I did a transaction and that used to give me chills. So having a recognition is what I refer to as a second level. As soon as you're doing any of your particular deals, being recognized for doing the hard work is so important for you and your business. Now, once you start getting into a high level of production, you actually get into what I referred to as the level three.

And this becomes more familiar when you start searching about EXP. And that's becoming a cap agent. You see, once you get to that level of production where you've actually hit a cap status, ultimately what happens is it starts to jump forward. So hitting that high level of productivity and becoming a cap agent, is where you really want to be. Why? Well, as a cap agent, you start earning 96% commission. And that can start changing your life. This is when you start living a life by design. This is when you start to actually expand and grow. You have more money, not only for yourself, but for your business to start expanding. So that's at a level three. But then you get to the level four. And a level four is

the highest level within EXP, and that's obviously my level scale. At the highest, it's an icon agent. You see, as an icon agent, you have really excelled in your productivity. And as a company, they reward you for that. So what does it take to become an icon agent? Well, you would obviously become a cap agent because you would have surpassed the level three. But as an icon agent, you've concluded 35 or more transactions in your anniversary year, or you have exceeded 3 million rand in gross commission. Now, getting to that icon status, what does that mean for you? Well, as a cap agent, you'd have to pay over, it's roughly 150,000 rand of your commission

to the company that gets split in various ways. Well, when you achieve icon status, the company gives you. back that 150,000 RAND in EXPI shares. Now, that's something that's absolutely amazing, because if you get to an ICON agent every single year, when you're doing the calculations, you're actually running as 100% every year. And that just makes you think, how do I get to that level? Well, it's all about productivity. Now, today I want to talk about something that really influences buyers as well as sellers when they come into this particular market. You see, we all know that when we're looking at properties, and this is from the buyers,

they start looking at the location. They want to make sure that the location suits them, whether it's close to schools, whether it's in that particular area that they're looking for a secured estate, on the beachfront, on a golf course, etc. The second, well, that's the condition of the property. Is it a property that they need to put in work? Is it a property that it's literally you bring your suitcases and put them down and away you go? What is that condition of the property?

Now, those two factors together can influence the price. And it's the price that our buyers will then say, hey, I've got the power because I'm going to put in a price and put in an offer. However, when we start looking at that price, there are buyers that will then start looking at the interest rates and it's the interest rates that either can affect a buyer's decision to put in an offer or a seller's decision to sell and that's what I want to uncover today now in South Africa we have two types of caller terms that get thrown around when we're starting to look at interest rates now the first interest rate is what we refer to as the prime lending rate And the prime lending rate is what the banks typically offer to their best customers.

So it's from the bank themselves. They go to the market with a prime lending rate. Now, to some of their clients, they might go a percent or a point or two below the prime lending rate or for clients that have a little bit of a higher risk. They might go one or two points above. So they might be going in at a much higher percentage rate. Now, currently, as I'm doing the recording, The prime lending rate in South Africa is currently at 11%.

So if you're a really good client, maybe you can get it down to about 10%. And that can influence a buyer to a certain point. Now, that's the first term that gets circled around is the prime lending rate. The second is what they're referred to as the repo rates. Now, the repo rate is something that when I first heard it, I thought this was something of a negative. Hey, repo, kind of like the first. word or first letters of repossession? Well, no. The repo rate is the rate that the actual reserve bank lends money to the commercial banks. So this is actually coming from the actual

reserve bank. They have funds. They're obviously getting funds internationally investments, bonds and all that type of thing. And they are then lending money through to the commercial banks. So that rate currently is sitting at 7.5%. So there's a bit of a gap, 7.5% up to 11%. And I've always asked the question, why does the banks not just go in at repo rate? Well, they've got to make a profit. So that's just giving you a bit of a background between the two rates, because so too often when we hear these terms, we misunderstand them. So prime lending rate, it goes from bank to customer repo rate. It's from the reserve bank to the commercial banks.

So that I just wanted to highlight so that you have a bit of understanding. But the big question is, when interest rates go up, what actually happens to the actual buyers and sellers? And when the interest rates go down, what actually happens to the buyers or sellers? But more importantly, once the interest rate changes, as an answer, agent, what should you be doing to educate your clients? And that's a part that is so important. If I reflect back during COVID 2020, interest rates in South Africa was sitting around about 11%, where it is right now. And it dropped all the way down to 7.5%. It would be down a whole long way. Now, that was a huge drop in the actual interest rates. Now I might stand to correct these interests

that I've given there might be a half a percent or a percent out. But interest rates dropped. And ultimately what happened thereafter, buyers saw this interest rate drop and thought, this is fantastic. It means that I've got more affordability. And they started to put in offers. Now, this is what actually happens.

When interest rates drop, buyers feel like they have more money, which means their affordability goes up slightly. Let me break that down for you. Affordability, a typical buyer might be able, at an 11% be able to afford a property of $1 million. But if that interest rate, and this is with the same income, if that interest rate drops to say 5%, that same buyer would be able to afford a property of nearly $1.1 million, giving them a little bit more buying power. So what actually happened after COVID?

interest rates dropped, buyers saw this opportunity that they could then start to put in a little bit of a higher price and pick up properties. So there was an absolute run on properties. But as we all know, anything that goes down will go up and anything that goes up will go down. And ultimately what's happened, if we looked over the last five years, as interest rates have started to climb. And ultimately, it's now put a lot of stress on those buyers. And ultimately, it's now put a lot of stress on those buyers. that bought those properties with it overexposed themselves. So as an agent, when you're seeing interest rates going down, it really does open the market. You'll find that more and more of the actual buyers are going to say, hey, I can afford more. But be very cautious because when they actually do put in that offer, do raise the note. What if that interest rate goes up to 11. What happens if it goes up to 15? Or like it did in the 80s, it went above 20%. Hopefully never to happen ever again. But in interest rates go that high, suddenly your buyer is now looking at this property that they've purchased through you in a negative way. So you've got to be very careful

when you're starting to work with it. But now does it really create a huge amount of interest for the buyers when the interest rates goes down. Now I've experienced this speaking with buyers. I've always asked them the question and this is a question that you can ask your particular buyers. What is the interest rate? And you're going to find that 90% of your clients have no idea what the interest rate is. They will throw a number like oh I think it's about 10 or 12 or 11 about they don't have an exact. And if somebody does come back and say, well, it's at 11%. And you say, well, do you know what the actual repo rate is at the moment? And they might say, well, it's at 7.5% or they might even get them confused. And it's important to make sure that you do unravel that confusion because

I've had it where I've always asked the question to a buyer. Hey, do you know what the interest rate is? And they say, oh, yes, it's sitting at 7.5%. Now, their mind is saying, what, seven a half percent, That means my affordability can really be pushed. But the truth of the matter is it's not at 7.5%. It's 11%. And that is something that you have to explain through to your clients. So the reason why I share this is the question I asked, does the interest rate have an effect on the buyers when they're putting in offers?

And you'll find that the interest in the beginning does not. Because they're not aware of that actual interest rate, unless they've done some extensive homework around it. What they're looking for is the location. They're looking at the condition. And they're looking at that price to make sure that it has value in the property. And is their growth in that area? Interest rate only comes in once they start talking about those financials.

Now, this might always sound like something that's a little bit on the boring side because, well, you're not going to go up to a buyer and say, hey, do you know what the interest rate is? Do you know if it goes up? It's going to affect your actual affordability in two to three, four years time. That could actually retract a buyer at all. What you really need to start doing is only ask them the question, educate and the difference, and then start looking at where they are in their business. Where do they foresee themselves in the future?

because I've just had it with a particular buyer that I'd been working with who suddenly got a promotion, their affordability went up. Interest rate for them doesn't actually make a difference and they're able to offer more on a particular property. Did the interest rate come into that conversation all? Absolutely not. So on a buyer's, the simple answer to it is does the interest rate have that immediate effect? And in my personal opinion, it doesn't until it gets to the numbers, those financial, and that goes on to their affordability.

Because in all honesty, a small percentage change only makes a couple of hundred-rand difference. But now let's talk about the sellers. You see, the sellers has a different perspective when it actually comes to the interest rates. You see, once you're into a particular problem, property, you're fixed and locked into a particular term with that financial institution. And ultimately, when interest rates goes up, suddenly your disposable income goes down and it does start to affect you. But really where it starts to affect the actual sellers is when they've bought the property at a very low interest rate, they bought it at the max of their affordabilities.

And now the interest rates has corrected and gone back up. they're now sitting in a very uncomfortable position. What do they do? If they sell the property, they're going to lose money. Do they hang on to the property? They're going to lose money. Why? Because they've now exceeded.

And these are the conversations that becomes quite tricky, especially if you were the agent that sold them these particular properties. Because it was a great deal, maybe four or five years ago, but now it's actually gone beyond. It's gone to a point where they just cannot afford. that things have changed in their actual life. What do they do? Well, in those particular circumstances,

they need to make the decision of either making a loss, if they're looking at selling or holding it out or getting it refinanced because that's something where they move through to banks. But now the question that comes in, does the interest rate have an effect on a seller to make their decision to sell the property? Or with what I've just shared with,

you, it absolutely can. And this is something that we've used in the past. When we know that the interest rates were starting to climb in 2021, 2022, we started to notice that interest rates were going to start climbing. And those interest rates gave an opportunity for us to sit down with our particular sellers and actually say to them, hey, by the way, you know that every single year, your property is going to become that much more expensive for our. a buyer. Now remember, I'm only speaking to a seller. It's the mindset to a seller. And from that, if we start putting your property on the market now, it means that we're hitting a wider audience. But if we hold on and the interest rate shoots up to 15, well, then the actual buyers are not going

to be into that pocket where we're not going to find the affordability factors that come in. So talking to sellers, does the interest rate affect a seller's decision to mark? market and sell a property. And it absolutely can. It's something that we use the interest rates as that favorable condition to bring in buyers. So don't fall into that trap of thinking an interest rate, well, it's going to affect everybody. Because ultimately, the interest rates is not aware until you're actually in the hot seat and you're feeling the effect of those interest rates on a monthly basis. So the impact that can actually happen, well, when we reflect back onto COVID, sales went through the roof. They are record sales. When we look at the third and fourth quarter of

2020 and the first quarter of 2021, it went through the roof. You'd put your property on the markets and people were going and buying. That process was triggered by the interest rates. But what we found is the spending spree from buyers was more of an excitement. Hey, we can actually afford to buy something more. We can actually get into this particular market. But for the sellers, they actually were the ones that suddenly said, hey, at a low interest rate, by putting onto the market at a higher price, they were making more money. It became an investment decision for them that actually worked in their favor.

So when it comes to interest rates, when the interest rates go down, you can see that it works in favor of sellers to start pushing the prices up. When the interest rates go up, it works in favor of the actual buyers because they use the power of saying, well, we can't afford that. We want to put in a lower price. So this is where you start to get into this little bit of a situation. What is the ultimate interest rate? Well, there isn't the ultimate interest rates. If there was the ultimate interest rate, we'd all love it to be 0%. But then ultimately, you're going to be sitting in a situation where properties would just be going up and down all the place and you don't have anything to actually substantiate the reasons why.

So when you're working with your actual buyers, have conversations with them and ask them that simple question. Hey, do you know what the interest rate is? because if they are unaware and they just throw a random number and most of the time they'll tell you the repo rate because that's typically what we hear when it comes out on the media, you know that they're not influenced and they are just going to be looking at the properties based on the emotionals,

based on, hey, the location, based on the condition. When we start looking at those interest rates with sellers, well now we're looking at their financial current situation because they're in that hot seat. And they're the ones where you can start to look and say you are at the limits. We know that you haven't been able to pay your mortgage or bond. What is the situation for you and for the next six months? Can you withstand it? Can you continue to pay the actual amounts every month? Or is it that we need to list and start getting into the market now?

Because if interest rates start going up, the buyers are going to put pressure on you to push your prices down. On the reverse, if the interest rate starts going down, well then your seller might be going I have a little bit of relief. I don't have to now sell my property. I can actually hang on to it. And that happened to me just before COVID. I remember having a listing that ultimately the seller could not afford their property. And because of COVID and the interest rates drop, it changes a situation where he could then afford his actual property.

So with interest rates going down, it has that effect that you may. may not start losing the stock because people are going, well, now I can afford it. Why do I need to sell? So there's a huge talk around it. Now, everything that I've shared, yes, it is from my own personal opinion and my own personal experience of what I've experienced. But I actually encourage you to have these type of conversations with your buyers, very like level, with your sellers that are looking to go to markets. Because understanding the actual interest rates actually levels you up to a professional level. It helps you to understand the market at a level that most people don't understand. And using what I've shared from my own personal

experience and your personal experiences, you can have these conversations to actually help buyers to make the informed and the correct decisions and help sellers to do the same. Because at the end of the day, whether the interest rate is selling at 0% or 20% people are still buying people are still selling that is one truth the numbers may alter but people are still buying and people are still selling it does not shut down the actual markets everything still goes forward so don't fall into that trap of thinking oh my gosh interest rates are gone up everything is negative Don't always look at that. Or when interest rates go down, you suddenly say, this is fantastic news. Because in either sense, it could actually be a positive or a negative. For myself, I just say that's the markets. That's the interest rates.

And that's what you're going to get with the bank. And you fight the banks to get a better rate? Absolutely. Most of the banks they can negotiate with. And that actually helps to move deals going forward. So I know this was a session that was really starting to look at interest rates. You can't make this into a session that makes everybody excited about interest rates. But it was definitely something that had to be noted from experience that the interest rate is not always that factor that has people to make a decision.

In fact, it's an afterthought for buyers. But for a seller, it can be sitting on the front of their minds because they've still got to pay those bonds and mortgages. So I want to jump into the actual chat box just to go through a couple of questions. And I do apologize. I know these sessions can go in all different directions. So David, I do apologize for your mic. It would have been absolutely great to have you onto this particular session. But it's not going through on there.

All right. So I have actually, I'd actually muted the microphones because when you're going through sessions, if I've got people turning on microphones and talking in the background, it does actually come to quite a confusing, especially because this is a recorded session. So having all of that, Johan, if we look at the situation in the world today, especially between South African governments and the USA, do you think that will have an effect on the interest rates? And I think in a way it will have an effect on the actual interest rates, but not in the way that everybody is thinking about. one thing that I found that most people get confused is tariff increases. So tariff as you sell a good and when it lands on the other side, you pay a tariff or a duty. Those jump all over the way, which does have an effect on the economy, but it does not have an immediate effect on the actual interest rates themselves.

If suddenly everybody had sanctions against us, if you actually recall and you can do the research into the late 80s. There were sanctions against South Africa. Interest rates went up to nearly 25 percent or three others around about 25 percent. And I got David nodding, which he's obviously concurring with that. And at that point, because of the sanctions, it had an effect. But it was not something that just say, hey, let's put up the interest rates because of the sanctions and duties. It's something that is a slow progression. So with governments, international governments, changing the different tariffs, does it have a direct? Not in the short term, only in the long term will we actually see the effect. Remember, interest rates is what we pay to the bank to keep

the bank profitable. It's what the bank pays to the reserve bank or any of the investors to keep them profitable and that helps to keep the country profitable. So that's why we have those interest rates and it actually helps out. So would it happen? It should be all done. Let's just have a look here. David, you said possibly resolved. Sorry, I'm just going through the actual messages. Let me see. I'll see if it has been resolved. I can then do

that. So, we'll see if it actually resolved. You should have the right to unmute yourself. No, we've seen the mouth. We're not seeing the words. Unfortunately. All right. So, still going on that from there. Yahan, look what EXP realties now in the US,

number one in sales in the first quarter of 2025. That didn't have any effect. on the actual um as the the interest rates that just had an effect on productive agents people being focused and getting into the mindset it's one of the bigs can you divulge which situation can affect the inflation rates going up so inflation rates is all connected to what happens in our economy so for instance inflation is worked out and i'm just going to use a loaf of bread as an example If a loaf of bread was one ran now and then next year, it's now one ran three cents. It's gone up by three percent.

So inflation is just the cost of goods and how they've actually started to either increase or decrease. When we started looking inflation rates of around, I think they want to hit a target of about 3.6 under the 4% mark. It just means our life as human beings in this economy, in this little bubble in South Africa, it's becoming 3% more expensive. When inflation rates start hitting 20%, 30%, or like it did in some of our neighboring countries, 200, 300%, then you can just see the cost of living goes through the roof. And the way that the government will actually resolve that is they start to depreciate the value of the actual economies, Rand, if you want to call it, and that then starts to have this expansion

side. So inflation, it's all related to, if you want to call it the cost of goods. And it's actually quite interesting because they pick up the raw material, if you want to say the raw items, your bread, your milk, your sugar and so forth. And they actually do a comparison of all of these goods to see where they're at is their price. Has it gone up? Has it gone down? And that's how they calculate on the actual inflation rates. So how does it affect the inflation rates? Well, what can affect the inflation rate is imported goods.

So if we're importing a lot of goods and ultimately, suddenly the tariffs are going up where we're paying more for those particular goods. So maybe it was duty free and now we're paying a duty. So something that costs one rands now costing two rand, you can see how the cost of those goods starts to rise and that can then start having effects. So because a lot of what we do as far as importing is based on the US dollar, now we're starting to really get into economy. So hopefully I don't put anybody asleep. But ultimately, what's happening with the tariffs, what's happening, it weakens the rent. The dollar becomes more stronger. It means that what we buy from the outside world becomes more expensive. When that becomes more expensive, inflation will start to rise. And ultimately, we get to a point where we don't want to be importing every. We want to try and keep as much as we can in South Africa or with countries that we can trade outside of the US dollar so that we can actually have that effect of just balancing it as we're going through. So I know that we've got some very good allies of different countries and we import from and that's where we try and maintain it. And that's why it's so important for our government to actually go out. And I don't really want to go into too much of the politics of the economy because I know this was kind of like one of those topics that I could see would go down a particular rabbit hole.

Nigel, can you talk about the VAT increase? Well, the VAT increase is kind of like, what do we do? Half a percent going up on the 1st of May and then in a year's time it's going up by another half percent. And ultimately, with that VAT going up, it's going to have a bit of an effect on inflation. because there are VAT items out there that's now going to become a half a percent through VAT. Remember, it's 15.5 percent of the value. It's going to go up. So it's not like it's going up by half a percent.

It's a very, very small margin that it will be increasing by. So that will have an effect. But where does that money actually go through to? Well, it goes into the government because we've got a lot of loans. And I'm sure that they want to do what they do with those particular loans out there. So is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? It's going to have a small effect on what we do here in the property industry. You will only start to feel very small things because we have a lot of our basic goods in South Africa are VAT exempt. So there is no VAT on it. So your bread and so forth. So those goods are VAT exempt. But what you will find is goods that do have VAT that's imposed on it, you'll find that they become a little bit more expensive. And like here with the EXP, we as a company have apps have actually, we're going to be absorbing that half a percent when it comes to the cloud monthly fees. So you're not going to fee it.

You're still going to pay 900. All we're going to do is we're absorbing that and we'll pay in the difference through to the actual SARS so that you don't have any effect on that. So last question from your hunt. If tariffs are increased via USA on South Africa, what do we do as agents? to discuss with sellers. How do we console them and how we'd be able to sell their property to make the tariff rise? So tariffs is only importing and exporting. It's goods that are outside.

It's not actually in the property industry. So when they start bringing up tariffs, the easiest thing is, and I've got a very standard saying, when somebody's having a conversation with me that is totally unrelated to the property itself, I'll say that is very interesting. I am going to look into it. and then I immediately divert into the property itself. So that particular little phrase, that is very interesting. I'm going to look into it.

And I divert into the actual property itself. If there's anything that comes in front of your path and you find that they're starting to have conversations about politics, about economy, about race, anything of those natures, you can actually just respond in a very neutral way, say that you're going to look into it and divert back into the actual property itself. tariffs is not going to have a direct impact into the actual properties. We will still find sales will happen unless it is a company that the owner of that particular house or that particular buyer, 100% of their business is exporting through to the actual US and the tariffs are starting to hurt their business. But ultimately what you must remember, when they increase the tariffs, it's not us that actually pays for it.

It means that it's the US citizens that when the product lands there, they are the ones. going to pay the higher price. It just means that the volumes of orders may become slightly lower because we become that much more expensive. That's all that's going to happen. Business will still continue. The tariffs will have no effect as it stands on the actual economy of South Africa. All right. So does the transfer duty also get affected? So transfer duty, it's just actually increased to 1.210, go figure the numbers, is now up to that amount is now duty-free. So that was announced about a month ago. I think I was in Durbin when it actually came out. So at that particular amount, anything below that, it's duty-free. So it's actually been working in our favor. Got nothing

to do with any of the tariffs. However, there is a VAT implication that goes into, for instance, our commissions. Our commissions is 6% plus VATs. So that obviously will come through. The actual legal fees from the attorneys, the bond attorneys, etc., their fee is plus VAT. So yes, there's going to be a small when it comes through to doing transfers. But remember, the actual transfer duty itself is not VAT imposed. It's basically a flat fee. If it is a company selling the property, and the company that's selling is VAT registered, then there is a bit of an effect because the VAT has actually increased. There's no transfer duty.

There's a VAT that's imposed on the actual sale of the property. And also bearing in mind, if you sell the property for $600,000, you're still going to pay the VAT. You don't get that benefit of the actual $1.21 million on the no transfer duty, anything underneath all of that. So thank you for all of these questions, Elida, a very informative session. How do you make? And this is a question that I want to ask you.

How do you make one of the most interesting topics in the world? Interest rates, so interesting. Well, the only way that you can do it is interesting has the word interest in it. And that's the only way that you can make interest interesting. It's just add an I-N-G at the end. And that's what you need to do when you're starting to go through. So if there's anything out there and you think that's bore, well, it's I-N-G, borring.

Well, let's make it positive. Let's make it into something. It's boring, ring. And then it just sounds so cool as you're going through all of that. Right. Perfect. Thank you, Lurik. I know there was a huge amount.

And full disclosure, I did have to double check what the actual prime lending rate percentages was. I know that there was some adjustments. So that is at 11%. the repo rate is at 7.5%. There's also, and I was quite interested, I know this is totally off topic, but the interbank rate is sitting at 7.36%. And this is the rate that banks lend money to each other. So when you've got Absa Bank lending money to Standard Bank, does it happen?

Absolutely. They actually charge each other 7.36%. How amazing is that? And then for those of you that have been interested in, obviously maybe you've done one or two deals where you're clients have got bonds through SA home loans. They've been using the Java rate, which is the Johannesburg Interbank offered rate. So it's actually a benchmark for short-term lending, and that sits at 7.54%. Obviously, they put their profit on top of all of that, and that's actually recalculated every

three months. So something, if you're not aware of it, clients that are with SA home loans, If the interest rate goes up, all the other banks suddenly send out a notice and everything gets amended. With SA home loans, it actually sticks on that and they have dates that they do a review. And on that particular review, that's when the interest rate actually changes. So it could go up, down, left, right, but it's only every three months. So it's a nice little sales pitch from there. Not selling SA home loans, but it was a nice sales pitch. It's how they got me onto all of that.

Right, that was a huge amount of information. I've actually gone out. I don't know how I'm still standing with all that information that actually came three. Guys, for me, and let me just be full 100% disclosure, I don't like economics. I really don't like economics, but you're going to have clients that are going to talk the language of economics and you need to know all these little things, what's happening. Is it interesting to sit down and read what's happening with the tariffs between the U.S. and South Africa and the U.S. in China, the US in Canada, the US, it's always US as the common element. Is it, well, it's actually totally boring, but it's one article in a business tech or a financial, just get you

up to speed so that you can fill in the gaps in the conversation. That's something big that's coming through. Just read up and get that information that comes through interest rates, understand it because this is definitely going to be part of your particular business. From ourselves, Stuart, I want to thank all of you for coming on to this particular call. I wish you all a fantastic day forward. Remember, stay productive. Stay true to yourself. So from myself, Stuart, cheers for now.