KGCI: Real Estate on Air - Navigating the Tension Between KPI Results and Human-Centric Leadership Excellence

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Summary:In this episode, hosts Chris Angel and Aaron Hinton sit down with leadership coach Erin Treacy to discuss the critical balance between driving business results and nurturing the people who produce them. Treacy explores how "soft skills"—originally a military term for interpersonal relationships—are actually the most challenging and essential "critical skills" in modern business. The conversation highlights how "hustle culture" often kills effective communication and creativity. Treacy provides tactical advice on "managing time" by creating space for spontaneity and connection, arguing that when leaders prioritize people over dashboards, the metrics take care of themselves.

Hello, friends. Welcome back. It's another episode of The Mindful CEO. I'm your co-host, Chris Angel. And I'm joined by the handsome double Aeron Hendon. Nice. You don't like calling me handsome because we look exactly the same. Yeah, it's a passive way to compliment myself.

It really is. Not fooling anyone. It's good to be here, my friend. It's good to be here with our guest, Aaron Tracy. We just were having a really cool conversation before the show. I'll let Aaron introduce herself. It's a little bit about her background, and then we'll jump in because we really are diving into that tension between results and what it takes to actually nurture people into producing those kind of results. So, Erin, welcome.

It's good to see you. Thanks. Thank you for having me. A little about yourself. So I am in the Appalachian region in West Virginia, born and raised in a family business. So conference rooms were the family dinner table at every dinner table. So leadership was very much part of something I saw every single day and business ownership and leadership and grew up in that. And I've worked kind of across different industries, news, hospitality, and learned a lot nonprofits along the way and really how I was successful in leading the people around me and have turned that into real life practices to be able to.

to do that for other folks who are looking to expand and grow in their different areas. Great. Very cool. And what are you doing now, Erin? Yeah. What are you doing now? So I have a coaching business now. So I work with a lot of clients on that, you know, how to find their own skills to be able to grow as a leader and into those roles because leadership has changed so much.

You know, it used to be I put my fancy suit on and I thought, you know, you spoke in a certain way. You carried certain authority. and really we're finding that leadership is not any of those things. So people are trying to really understand it and figure it out and grow because we don't teach it. We call it a soft skill, but it is all of the hard stuff that really makes up the interworks of a business of any kind. Yeah, you know, that thing about soft skills is a really, you know, it's funny because it was, do you know the origin of it? I don't think I do. No.

Oh, you don't. No, I don't think so. Yeah, it's an Army term. So when the Army in the 70s was going through the skills that it would take for leader, you know, for people to lead, the Army's deeply involved in the hierarchy hierarchy of leadership. It was dividing the skills that people need, you know, they can develop themselves into hard and soft, hard. are the skills that involve tanks and guns and things of physical nature. They're the hard skills.

They're the skills of dealing with things that are physically hard. And then there's the skills that are of the skills that are things that are physically soft, interpersonal relationships, communication, all that valid to soft skills. It's just a very simple way to divide it between hard and soft. Do you have the hard skill? Can you fix this tank? Do you have a soft skill? Do you know how to communicate?

And then over time, even the people that developed that have expressed deep regret for the way that gets communicated because soft, it's so funny because it only shows up as something to say it's where you have to add on to it's critical. inside the frame of hustle culture. Yeah. If you're not in, if you're in the East, soft skills would sound totally different. You wouldn't have to apologize for it. Yeah. You would say soft skills.

Oh, the skill that it takes to ease into the moment and to be in the present. Oh, that's obviously the most important skill to develop because we're, you know, born afraid and alone and ready to hunt. And, you know, all that kind of stuff. So developing skills that would have you be soft in nature would be appropriate. But it's funny, I never even heard of. What makes that something you need to apologize for is the framing, the culture that it lives in. Yes.

Yeah. And they've renamed those now in the Army. Those are now critical skills or critical thinking skills, something like that has been redeveloped inside that. If more people would call it critical thinking and human. and it because they are in the real the real part of what's happening. It's the only feel that you get anyone to fix a tank. Yeah. I mean, really, you know, it's not, I don't, I don't, now that's just the means all the.

And there's a right way and a wrong way to fix a tank. There's not a right way and I mean, I guess there is sort of a wrong way to show up as a leader or an ineffective way, but not really a wrong way. It's way less binary. Yeah. You know, it's not a binary choice. It's much more fluid. But having skills with the fluidity. is critical.

That's, you know, so yeah. So that it's interesting that, you know, we started with, you know, just in real time what it looks like to be a soft skill apologist. But where, you know, that's everything. I mean, you know, I teach mindfulness and it's the same. I mean, you know, people think mindfulness is, I'm going on a leadership podcast on Friday. And they gave me a little questionnaire of,

you know, to prepare, which we don't do on the show. And one of them was, you know, what do you say? How can a leader, how can a manager or a CEO or someone introduce mindfulness to people that are skeptical or think it's too soft or woo-woo? Because soft has now fallen into the woo-woo category. Yes. And woo-woo is not something that we use in business. business and we can't reconcile all that.

And, you know, I wrote about this. I think it's definitely worth writing about it, is that we have in business and again, in the context of fossil culture, we hate the gray. We just hate gray. We want black or white. We don't want something in the middle. We don't want anything that's,

because that just feels not leadership. I know that's a term that you must use all the time in your coaching leadership. I love leadership. I also, you're the first person outside of myself who says the woo-hoo or the fee-fi, as I call it. Oh, the fee-fi. The fee-fi. I call it the fee-fi. It's in the fee-fi world of it.

You know, it's the fee-fi. So I like the woo-hoo or the fee-fi of it because it does kind of explain where that is. And a leader shouldn't be those things according to, you know, again, that playbook of this is a picture perfect leader and this is the things they're supposed to do. And yeah. So, Aaron, walk us through how you, like, you have this whole thought around leadership. I mean, I know you spent a lot of time in your own life, but then also in your work, you know, in the spaces of leadership and the conversations.

What, like, where is your view of leadership? Like, how do you view it? What is, and what's the tension of it? So I approach leadership as the people. it is the people part. It's it's your critical thinking, your soft skills and the tension becomes we don't want to hurt somebody else's feelings. We don't

and it gets into those emotional parts. That's where the tension hits. By giving feedback, am I being mean by you know co-in coaching or sitting with an employee, do they feel like I'm you know, helicoptering over them? And those where the tension points are. It's in those people parts of leadership. You know how to read a dashboard probably of KPI's and ROIs and increased percentages,

and we know those things because that's what they taught us when we went to school or that's what we've learned through the course of our job. Those are things that we know how to metric on. There's an actual number that can be assigned to this box. I would make the joke a lot. My parents and I were in our family restaurant business for years together and we owned them together. And so to try to explain to my accounting mother.

and my business and engineer father how advertising works, which, yes, there's ROI, but it's, it's really hard to measure. It's not a, this is the line on the ledger and this is the box and this is the number and it's a very black and white. It's all of those, like he said, it's the gray areas that become the challenge because we let our, even our own brain give us an idea of what the other person's thinking. We don't know, but our brain's going to tell us what it says, but it's telling us our perception of it, not the reality of it. And so we play all of these things in our head.

And that's where the tension point comes. The tension is always among the people, right? It's not in the work. We understand how to do accounting. We understand how to be a nurse. We understand how to do these elements of our job. The tension is in those human, connections of it. So good. Why don't, why aren't we, why don't we know how to do that? It seems so

human to have a conversation with people. Like, why are we not better at leading the way you've described it? We're not better because we're holding our own selves, right? Like if, and I had this conversation today with one of my kids. She's 24. So she's an adult and her, you know, her grown-up job. and she's having attention with one of her bosses. But I don't want to point out my struggle over here because this is how he usually comes to me with this question. And it's like, but that's an assumption. You assume that's why he's asking the question.

You don't know that's why he's asking the question. You are playing that in your own mind. So if you want to move forward or to understand or to get clarity, you can either keep assuming it and get more. more and more frustrated and more and more down this road. He doesn't know there's attention. He's asking questions that make total sense to him as your leader, as your boss, as the person who's supervising you. But you don't know what the reason is. So it's safe to say or it should be safe to say, hey, I'm not understanding where this is going or what kind of information you want

or whatever that clarifying question is in a way that doesn't also feel like you're pushing them into uncomfortable. Well, I don't want to make them uncomfortable. I mean, is it uncomfortable to ask a clarifying question? He was pissing in my weaies this morning. It was, yeah. But really, it was just whatever that was right there. I put up on Facebook three different book covers ideas that I'm looking for for, new book. And Chris didn't like any of them, but didn't want to say that on the Facebook page

because he didn't want to pee in your Wheaties. P in my Wheaties. But that's, I'm asking for it. Yeah. So there's this. I was just looking at people are still like, well, I mean, yeah, it's, they're all, they're all great. Like, I mean, that's what everybody has told you. They're all great. It's because they're your friends. So they don't want to hurt you or disconnect from you. And it's like, you know, just I was really looking for a very honest. answer. I'm not going to be upset or offended. I just wanted an honest answer. And then people are still like, no, they're still all great. You know, I was just looking up that phenomena, Chris, why we're like that, right? Like there's projection bias that we think everyone thinks the way we think.

Yep. So if I'm, because I already know what you think because you think like I think. And if you see this situation that if you see this situation you obviously see it the way i see it that's the bias that's the heuristic that's how you come about it and unless you slow down you're never going to take it apart and it's yeah you know this is the again this is the frame of hustle culture where hustle culture kills communication or the possibility of communication is that we're too fast. We're too fast with an answer. We don't think things through.

We don't approach it with curiosity and wonder. You know, we've stopped approaching like, I mean, you know, a little kid is taught really young. Stop asking questions. They all ask questions until they're told to stop asking questions. Aren't they? Yeah. Why is this this way?

And they will keep whying it until you say, because shut the fuck up. You know? And they're trained to not ask questions anymore. And we don't want to look stupid, you know? So there's two, I found there's two places where we don't ask questions.

And one is when we are afraid asking the question is going to make us look stupid. Like they think we're supposed to know the answer. And they think I'm supposed to know the answer. then I can't ask the question. And the other place this comes up is when I already know the answer. If I think I already know the answer, I don't ask the question. So if I think you think, so example, this is, this came up with my wife and I. This is actually, I wrote up that.

This is my first book. The mechanic tells me we're going to, I forget, I forget what it was, but we're all, we're going to need a new serpentine belt. I don't know what a serpentine belt is, but I can't ask him because I'm a guy and in this culture I'm supposed to know. And I can't look bad for the mechanic. But I know I'm going to go home and tell kale, tell my wife that we need a new serpentine belt. It's going to cost $1,500. And she has no such limitation.

She's a woman in this culture. And there's no expectation that she's supposed to know what it is. So she would have no problem asking what it is. I was like, that is really, that's a real life constraint that I, that's my problem, not her problem. You know, so, but that's why we don't ask those. That's, you know, all into the mix of what passes for communications. Why there's no communication. Yeah.

Because, I mean, those are just two projection bias, consensus bias. We overestimate our ability. to judge the situation. And slowing down takes apart all those biases. How do you, Aaron, I know I checked out your website a bit and you mentioned slowing down and pausing. Like what are some of the things in your own experience that have been helpful for you or that you use with clients to slow down or to pause? Like, what does that look like in a leadership context? Well, and Aaron was talking so well to that hustle culture.

We have to fill the calendar. It has to be full. I was working with a client. She's like, no, I feel my calendar and I organized my time. And I'm like, but what does that look like? And she literally, every 10 minutes of her day, she has slotted to whatever. And so if there's a wind, if this is a meeting that's an hour, that's that's an hour. And then every 10 minutes in between those meetings, there are 15 minutes.

She has allotted to exactly what she wants to do in that 10 or 15 minutes. Because of that mentality of hustle culture, the calendar must be full. So she has managed her time because those are the words we use. We've managed our time. And she says, but I get so frustrated and I'm so annoyed because I never get any of it done. And because somebody walked into her office and asked a question. So instead of spending this 10 minutes on whatever she had allotted to in her calendar, she's now thrown off for the whole day because it's not on the calendar.

And it's not that strict in that hustle mentality. And so I pointed out to her, so how do you find the ideas to present in this meeting if all of your time is blocked? And she says, I don't know, I just wing it. But again, that's the problem. If your brain isn't resting or thinking or just has a few minutes and you're in hustle culture, so we work to change her calendar, if this is the two-hour window in which you want to do emails, return phone calls, write a blog, whatever those things are, you've got a to-do list of, you've got a do-do list of, five or six things. Let's make it a two-hour block and then let's leave the rest of this time

open. That's the time we leave the door open for people to come into the office and ask the question. That's the time we make sure we get out of our chair and we're out in the office communicating with the people on our team and the people that we report to, but also the people who report to us. We're making sure we're having those connections because you know what it is. It doesn't have to be on the calendar, but you have to also have those, I mean, even it and you may be super busy, you know, CEOs, executive suite, business owners, small business owner, a large business, it doesn't matter. Your calendar has a lot of things.

But if you make even two minutes of going, you know what, I'm going to just take a walk around the block. I mean, I don't know if I do it, you know, in the middle of January. If you're in Seattle, it might not be super fun in January in Seattle. But maybe it's a walk around the building of just, you know, separating your you're still at work and you're thinking through ideas, concepts, things that you want so that you can come back and ask those insightful questions because we're so busy. We don't even take the time to even what is the question I should have asked back in that meeting, you know, this morning and it's

now afternoon. So it's finding even a couple of minutes that separate you and you put it down. You're not on a computer. You're not on your phone. You're not on the things. You're you're actually able to go, so what do I need to kind of think about before this meeting or after this meeting? How should I have engaged and asked a better question? Maybe that's where I need to go. Maybe I'm on my walk and I'm thinking about it and the question pops up. So I'm going to stop in Bob's office because I should have followed up with Bob in this way. Now I'm going to do that and engage in that question that I should have asked for better understanding, better clarity. Maybe it might even motivate him because you've shown your engagement, your curiosity into what it is.

But if we're in constant go, we never have that moment. One of the things that I had to do for my own sanity, I had to stop wearing a smartwatch. Yeah, it was the thing that it's supposed to be a tool of helpfulness, allegedly. That's what other people tell me. I took off the smart watch and I leave the phone in the other room. Or, you know, we always, when I think when I was younger in business, it was take the cell phone and put it to the side when you're engaging with somebody. So you're not looking. Well, now we have it on our wrist.

So every buzz of alert from Facebook and Instagram and a text message and the text message that does not need to be answered right now or an email that does not need to be answered in this one-on-one conversation or in this meeting, we're constantly distracted, right? There's that constant buzz on our wrist taking us out of those meaningful. conversation and engagements that move us. So it's finding what that thing is that gets in your way. Is it finding two minutes on your calendar? For me, it was, there will be no more smart watches in my life because it takes me away from my kids. It takes me away from my husband. It takes me away from my business, from my clients. All it did was get in the way. And it cost a lot of money to be in the way. So it has to go. There's a couple of things. Double A, Ron, I. heard in that one was just the the story we tell ourselves, I don't have time, well, in Aaron's

case, I don't have time to think. And maybe in your case, I don't have time to meditate. I think they come from the same place. They came from this thing like, my internal chatter is, I got to go, I got to go. And we tell ourselves these stories, like we don't have time to do that. And then I think the second piece of that that I hear is the Daniel Kahneman stuff. Like, you know, system two thinking is slower thinking. If you're going to get to design thinking, systems thinking, you've got to slow it down in order to be effective. I would say effective because otherwise you're just reacting or responding to everything that's coming up in your space. Yeah, I think the thing that made the biggest difference for me in that, in the scheduling, in that world of that whole thing,

was the course I did called Mission Control, which is a time. basically time management course. I don't like the words time management. And it starts with the acknowledgement that you're never going to get it all done. And has you deal with, I mean, if you do the full course, it's like a day of just dealing with,

you writing down everything you think you need to get done, which includes the movies that you're going to watch and the books you're going to read and the trips you're going to take and everything like that stuff unsaid un-examined colors and shapes everything you're never going to get it all done it's never going to go and you've just got to keep saying that to yourself until you get oh wait a minute it is never going to get done there are more things that are never going to get done then things I am going to get done.

In my life, between now and the time I die, I am never getting it all done. And until you can actually get that, you're sort of fucked because then you're supposed to get it done. And then you're left with the experience that Aaron was talking about, where you know, you always feel like you're behind.

And that's just not, I mean, sure, if you want to make up that you're supposed to get it all done, knock yourself out. But in reality, in the real world, in this thing that starts with the first breath and ends with the last breath, you're never going to get everything that you want to get done done. So then you're left with, okay, what am I going to do today? And those things go on my calendar.

What am I not, what am I going to get done, but I'm not willing to schedule it right now? So these are things that I'm going to get done at some point, but they're not in my calendar, but at least they're written down. And then there's a list of things that I'm never going to do. So they're written down. They don't live for me like burdens. They're just like, those are things I'm never going to do. I am never going to read Moby Dick.

I'm just never going to read Moby Dick. It's just not going to happen. I'm never going to see Titanic. It's not going to happen. Come on. I mean, I don't have any commitment to it, you know? Right, right, right. And that's just, I'm probably never going to see close encounters of the third kind at the point.

I know. I was with you on Titanic, although I've seen it. Okay, fine, but you know, closing counters is good. I'm not going to make the time for it. People say we should do lunch, and I'll always say, that sounds lovely, but I'm not writing it down. So you can't count on it because I'm just not going to write it down to something. If you want to follow up with me about it, you can do that.

But I'm not putting in it. I'm not going to put it in existence. I'm not taking care of that. So you should know that. And it just keeps it super clean. So then what I, then I can go to my list. every week and things that I want to do that aren't scheduled yet. And I can start putting them in my calendar.

And then that hand that, but you got to get that first piece. You're never going to get all done. And those executives and leaders that we're talking about, Aaron, live in a world where they're supposed to get it all done. And they have to get it all done. And it's a failure if they don't get it done. And it's like a character flaw.

Yeah. Well, they live in that failure. Like, oh, I failed. I didn't get it all done today. I'm going to do it tomorrow. I didn't get it all. And so they're in this constant. cycle. They're in a marathon, but they're sprinting in the marathon. Like, you know,

they're at full pace, but if you're running a marathon, you don't have enough gas. Nobody has enough gas to run it like your 100-0-yard dash. And that's the problem. What's the goal, Aaron, what's the goal of leadership then? I mean, you know, because you could say, oh, leadership is about getting us to the KPIs. Like, we need to hit our numbers. But there's a, there's another view of that, like from where you sit, what is the role, goal of leadership? The role and the goal, I mean, we're going to be held to the metrics we can see, right? You know, that's, as the leader, it's my job to see the metrics. I see them, I understand them.

But again, to ask more questions about what am I not measuring? What's not on this paper that I need to see? and we're not going to see unmotivated employees. We're not going to see disengaged employees. We're not going to see the people who are working under us who are running the marathon at a full sprint.

The KPI isn't going to tell us that. So that's why we have to work on getting out of the desk and the computer and looking at a dashboard of numbers and getting in with our people because people who are engaged are 30% more likely to bring better information to the table, to do better work. If my boss is engaged with me, I understand why we do this work.

I understand why the company has this mission. If I understand what's going on around me, it engages all of those people. So we have to get out of those chairs. So if we start talking about scoreboards, I love Nick Saban, West Virginia, fellow West Virginia and greatest football coach of, I don't know, I won't say of all time. I'll let other people argue. But, I mean, you know, a few national championships. It's a conversation worth having.

It's certainly arguably the greatest coach of all that. Absolutely. Like, other people will argue, you argue, but we'll let definitely amazing coach. So there is something there. But what he talks about a lot and, you know, when you hear him on interviews, he's great. He's like the Yogi Berra of this generation, only it makes way more sense than Yogi Berra ever did. It's like actual, you don't have to put it all together. It's the actual sentence because he just says it.

It's very plain spoken. It's very this is what it is. And it's like we don't focus on outcomes. We focus on execution. We focus on each play. We drill a play over and over and over again so that in practice it's as close to perfect as we can get it. So that when we go to the feet, we know which plays are at 98% perfection so that when we execute it, it's going to have a 70%

chance of being executed at near perfection. We're going to learn from what we did wrong. We're probably going to move the ball down the field and ultimately we stack a few of those up to the end zone, which is where our metrics are. Our metrics are in the end zone. But if we can't move the ball up the field, you know, not every play can be a Hail Mary. But if we're living in a world of constantly hell marrying every decision that we make, how many opportunities to mess up do we have versus living in a world and working in a world that we have created that is we're going to execute. I'm going to sit with my team, much like you see a video of Nick Sabin when he was coaching. He's on the field with the team. He's standing beside the guys on the line,

showing them how to execute this play. He's with a quarterback. This is how your body should be. This is how you should be thinking. This is what I want you to learn to see so that you can read what's happening across the field. He's giving all of those insights beside that player. And he's doing it with every single player. And that's what we have to take from this. Our leadership role is not in the office at the desk. Our leadership role is with our people executing and rehearsing plays because the outcome will take care of itself. Engaged people that know what they're doing that can make decisions in calm spaces aren't throwing Hail Mary's every 10 seconds. And they understand their why. It's a great question. I teach my what are the whys? Why do we do it this way?

why is this important? Why do we need to? And I will tell new employees in our businesses, if somebody can't explain why we do A, B, and C, then find someone else to teach you or come and find me if you can't, because if they don't know the why, I don't want them teaching you. That's the person who knows the why is who the teacher should be. That's your person that trains, coaches, leads. That's your person. And the KPI's the scoreboard. the touchdowns, those all take care of themselves, which is why you see a couple of national titles here and there over the years in different spaces.

But that's where our focus is. We're constantly focused on touchdowns, because that's the fun part. It's where the celebration is. It's where the adrenaline is, right? Yeah, it's, you know, look, I mean, so good. I mean, I'm big sports metaphor guy too. And it's, you know, the winners will tell you,

process over results. You measure process. Really interesting interview with just brought up this Mike McDonald, the coach of the Seahawks, who I'm a fan of. And so I listen. I'm nerdy enough to listen to the interviews of the coach because I like it enough. And one of the things he was talking about was some question a reporter asked about what are you going to do in this circumstance? And he said, well, this is sort of a long answer and it maybe doesn't directly answer your question. But I don't really train the guys and if this happens, do this. I train them in, I'd rather have them get the general idea and then be able and then train them to do the actions really well and have them choose the actions to take.

you know, it's really cognitive flexibility. He didn't say that, but that's what we're talking about, is cognitive flexibility, is the ability to dance in the moment with the circumstances because the circumstances are not predictable. You know, if we're talking about football, it's really, everything's going to happen within a eight-second window. And there's far too many variables for you to be able to plot anything out.

You know, I could, I could get super nerdy about specific plays where this happened. But the point is to really get that that's the job of leadership is to get interested in each individual on the team and find out what matters to them. Why are they here? And then putting those players in there, and I know this is Nick Saban and I know this is every great coach, is my job is to put that person in the position that's going to best utilize. their skill set. And that's the skill of leadership, as far as I'm concerned.

I know, Aaron, that's totally your position on that. I can tell because that's the game. Totally. Well, and it also lets you find out if, you know, this person, they are a wide receiver, right? But we learned that they actually would be a really good running back. And that's actually what they love. But we've got them tied up over here because we don't, we just know they have great numbers over there, right? All of his numbers are great in this vein, which limits us into thinking

or we limit ourselves. It's just easier for me to leave this person in role X when, because it's inconvenient to me to move them to this other. And so if we're engaged like you're talking about with our people and our role is not, how do I make my team better? My eye and all of those, How do I make the people around me better, which then will bring me up. Now I've got way more investment from the people around me, and all of the people are in the spaces where they're going to do far better. This person may be great at, and we hear about it all the time, like, oh, they, you know, they played quarterback their entire life, but went to college and started to be a receiver. Well, because that's the role maybe he was actually better at, but his team needed him to be a quarterback over here. but we need him as a receiver over there.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's the most, you know, important, that all spells out or it requires a basic level of curiosity, a basic level of openness, a cognitive flexibility, willingness to, you know, shift our perspective based on the circumstances. and part of the circumstances are what people are good at, what motivates them, what they're interested in.

You know, it's, there's just so much that you could fold in here, you know, I mean, from the mindful perspective. And this is the tension between mindfulness and the CEO-ness, which is also leadership-y. So, C-O-ness is one of our trademark words around here. We now have to trademark leadershipy. you know but that space of giving yourself enough space giving yourself enough room to look to ask

you know you said that thing about why and I we talked about it but I do think we train our human beings to stop saying why at a very young age you know there's that whole the most popular TED talk ever was this one about how school kills creativity. The way we school people kills their creativity. Because we don't school them to ask questions. No matter what you say about it, we train to the test. And training to the test is not an answer

because there is no fucking great, there's no real test. There's no right answer, you know. there's no right way to do it. And that tension between there's no right way to do it and training people on the process is things that we hate. At best, you could say, this is what worked last time. And if you approached best practices from that space,

which is really different than this is how we do it around here. This is how we do it around here, shuts down conversation, shuts down openness. This is what's worked in the past, and we're going to train you in that. Let's see how that goes. And then learn that. And then from there,

if you got a better way to do it, we're all years. But this is what's worked in the past. And until you master what's worked in the past, you probably don't have a lot to say about this yet because you haven't at least gotten up to speed on the way we know works, or no has worked in the past.

I think that's just, radical. That that's radical is I guess why we have jobs because that's still nothing. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of jobs, I just, I know Aaron that you have, I mean, I think it's pretty sweet to have a coach who has so many different experiences and angles in business. I know you've had a lot of different experiences in business, which makes that even more valuable when you can work with businesses in their own, you know, ventures, what they're up to create in the world. How do people learn more about? the kind of work that you do, where can they go to check out Aaron Tracy's coaching? So I'm easy to find on the web, coach Aaron Tracy.com. It's Irish Tracy, so T-R-E-A-C-Y-A-C-Y. So that happens a lot. You know, you see the Google things and it's like, oh, they spell my name wrong. Cool. It happens all the time because it is a little different. So coach Aaron Tracy.com and to keep it simple on Facebook, Instagram, and the tiki talk for the kids.

kids. I keep it all like Coach Aaron Tracy just to keep it simple. And then for anybody who wants to look on LinkedIn, it's just under my personal name there to find me and catch up there. There's a newsletter I do every week. So there's all these different fun kind of real world, take it today, do it tomorrow, starting point conversations to have because I think that's what's really important is to not put it pie in the sky. And it's this image board that you created. But you know, is there something I can really do tomorrow to start? So good. I think the more people who are having these conversations in the world,

the more we can actually create a new conversation for pausing, thinking, slowing down, getting to the soft skills, you know, like let's get to those places where we can actually work with other human beings. So, well, thanks for being on the show, Aaron. Double A, Ron, always great to have our conversations. Yeah, it's always fun. Yeah. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thank you so much. Thank you guys. I so appreciate it. This was awesome. See you next time. Bye, everybody.