KGCI: Real Estate on Air - Probate Bonds with Phil Pavarini

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Welcome to probate weekly.com. I'm Bill Gross at Bill Gross Probate and social media, or Bill Grossprobate.com as our website with all our links. And we do this every Thursday. I record live on a Zoom call at 9 a.m. Pacific time, 12 noon, Eastern Time. And we broadcast this to various social media. I'm a real estate broker in LA, California. And the goal of this is a couplefold, one to educate myself and all of us together.

being better at our business, whether a real estate agent or an attorney in the probate real estate space, we want to learn how to be more effective, creating more value for our customers, the way we create more revenue for ourselves. Second, networking, meeting each other, sharing ideas, sharing business as I build a national platform of real estate agents, we're in the probate space. We want to do that as well. And the third, hear from other successful business people how they're building their business and we can learn from them. So on today's episode, we're going to learn from a vendor, somebody who I describe as they're not a realtor, they're not an attorney, but somebody who services the same business we do,

and in many ways is attacking some of the same market we are to learn how they do it successfully, how we can work with them and their like, as well as copy their best practices and bring that to our business. So you're going to learn a lot about how to build your business. These are some of the principles I've used. And Phil in particular, this is his second time on. He gets the very valued second time guest cup for the probate weekly. We'll talk about that in just a second.

Okay, just a couple highlights. Before we jump into the details of the program, I'm back for the Jewish holidays, and I just want to say that I've been off a bit, you know, being a religious Jew, we've had literally off six working days of about a three-week period. So it's kind of crazy how much time I've had off from the business. But I do want to say that as a result,

I think I've come back more focused and clear on my vision of where I would have to build my business and how I'd like to include you in that path. And so forgive me for the time off. We did a couple of prerecords. I thought I'd be doing this one while traveling, but we got back in time. And so thank you for your patience during the last couple of weeks. Look forward to adding some great episodes and working together going forward.

Second, I just got back from the EXP Con. I'm with the XP Real Team. We had our national convention in Miami Beach, Florida. It was a lot of fun. And I definitely am still crystallizing my thoughts to take away from that. But one of the things that I take, I want to share and hopefully we'll come across today, is the importance of working with other people leveraging systems, procedures and people in order to build a business rather than just chasing commission checks.

And so I think you're going to see more and more of that as you go forward on how we can work together and leverage and I want to share that with you. And then the other big news is, of course, the Dodgers won the World Series last night beating the hated Yankees. Everybody hates the Yankees, other Yankee fans. And the thing that struck me, I've watched baseball, you know, my whole life as a kid. And I want to say one of the things that really struck me about that team in particular, just was striking.

And I see this message regularly. I'm just sorry, I brought to my phone on to mute. I'm doing that here as we talk. What struck me is how they work as a team. They seem to take more pride in each other's success and their own individual success knowing that's the goal. And I think that's true for all of us. And the grit, how even New York while they were down 3-0,

came back and won a game, and that was very motivating. And then the Dodgers last night being down 5-0 in the fifth inning, coming back, tying the game and winning the game. I think that's a lesson for all of us that if you want to be a champion, you can't give it, but you've got to keep grinding. So hopefully we'll all do that. Okay, so our guest today, Phil Pavarini Jr. is an expert in probate bonds. Virtually every one of our customers has to get a probate bond.

Virtually every one of the attorneys you work with has to answer the question where we get the bond from. They either defer to somebody else or make that decision. And Phil is one of those people who makes us, is the solution to people, in Ohio, I believe, yes, in Cleveland, Ohio, but also servicing markets across the country. Phil's been here before. Phil, thank you so much for coming back to Probate Weekly. Well, thanks for having me, Bill. I appreciate you having me back on. Excited to be here. So when you were a young kid while the rest of us were playing G.I. Joe's and playing football,

were you off playing the probate bond expert? How did you get in this business? Well, I started in Shirtie Bonds in particular as I was doing Shurdy Bail Bonds, which is definitely a different market than probate. That's where it led me here, is working with many attorneys and legal professionals doing surety bonds and private investigations. And here I am today. And all we pretty much do is the probate end of it.

We also do some other surety bonds, but primarily probate related. So if an eight-year-old child came up here and said, what is a probate bond? How would you answer them? Well, it's essentially in a nutshell. I describe it as a insurance company, is basically cosigning to guarantee whatever obligations your principal or your fiduciary has to the

estate. So that's in a nutshell. That's what's happening is in the instance of a claim with a surety bond, the insurance company is not just going to pay that. They're going to pay it and then they're going to come back after the fiduciary. So it's essentially a cosigner in a matter speaking. And I think this is a misnomer. It's not so clearly understood because bonds are required. I think we always resist things are required. But one reason why it's required is the judge and giving authority to somebody is now comfortable that somebody's insuring case source claims. But as a fiduciary, you also are insured against claims things that may happen. As long as you're not friding the court, you're insured against things that may happen as well, shortages or problems or

whatever based on the type of bond that you get, correct? Well, you're, you're not exactly insured and it's not for anything. It's only when the court determines that bond is payable due to some violation or some malfeasance or, you know, the court has to to order that is number one. And number two, it's definitely not insurance. So if there is anything paid out on that bond, the bonding company is going to come back after the principal to recover those losses. So that's important distinction is there is no, you know, just there are no bond claims that are just paid and not recovered. Uh-huh. So give me an example or two of what are bond claims that typically get issued and are, you know, approved and or that the money is reclaimed. Sure. Well, a few great examples actually recently and more often. We're running into families with some.

sort of disputes were multiple fiduciaries attempt to apply for that. Multiple fiduciaries attempt to apply for that bond and there may be disputes. One fiduciary may have had access to bank accounts and they go ahead and spend that money and sometimes it's considerable amounts and they could even spend it in good faith with the assumption that that expenditure is permitted. and it may end up not being permitted. So that bond is going to, could be, become payable by the court. So all the time we run into instances where, especially with folks that don't have an attorney,

they say, well, I don't have an attorney. It's a small bond amount. Why can't you approve the bond? And, you know, our best explanation is that the layperson generally is not going to be familiar with all the intricacies of what's allowed, what needs court approval, what doesn't, and that sort of thing. So, you know, all the time we have folks that, you know, are in that situation. The court orders the bond to be paid and, and then everyone's in a pickle.

So we try to avoid that. Can you give me an example of one or two of those types of situations? So many pay, you know, as a fiduciary, makes what they think is a reasonable judgment, but it turns out the court says, no, no, no, you should have spent money on that? You know, I personally, as the agent, I'm not involved with a whole lot of claims. as far as when there's an issue that comes up, that gets reported to the claims department. And the only time I generally get involved

is when we look at our loss reports or if a customer needs assistance with something, they'll reach out to me. And then I'll generally just redirect them back to someone in the claims area. But as far as the common claims are, another area is a lot of times is in guardianships where we have someone

that may have had a power of attorney and especially then they may be making expenditures that might now need court approval where maybe they were managing that estate as a guardian for 10 years and then all of a sudden or as a power of attorney for 10 years and then it turns into a guardianship and they continue writing those expenses and the court the attorney says hold on you need to get approval for that or you know that sort of thing you know in general i asked as a fiduciary for some estates recently on a couple. And I can't give legal advice, but business advice I would always give somebody is if you're spending money on behalf of an estate assuming it'll be approved, you better be

willing to eat that money if not. I mean, if you're protecting assets that you think and the long run are important, that's great. But, you know, things like changing locks I've done without knowing if I'm getting approved or not or, you know, but you really have to be very careful about spending money on behalf of somebody else because especially if there's other parties, other errors who object, sometimes they just want the cash and they can't see spending money on anything. And guardianship's another example where, you know, constantly ask for receipts of all those lunches. They took the kid on and gee, you spent too much or, you know, gee, how do they order three-quarter

pounders? You know, the kid's only 12 years old. You know, I've seen those arguments in court and they become very expensive battles. So, okay, good. So let's talk about one of the basic parts is, you know, um, you know, the kids. that the bond is many times required in order to get the letters of authority to get the probate process started. And this is often a hang-up because people feel like they file the petition, at least in California, and they submit it, and that might be done right away, or it might take several iterations and court hearings and months,

and they get approved in court, just okay, I'll approve it, subject to a $20,000 minimum bond or a million-dollar bond, or whatever the assets are. And the reaction of the customer is always bond. I had nothing about a bond. And they have to begin the process. So let's talk about most commonly, when do you get involved in the bond application process? At what stage is the customer when somebody is reaching out to you? And that's going to vary based on jurisdiction.

In a lot of respects, some courts require a bond before a case is filed. other courts will only accept it after the case is filed and the bond ordered. A lot of times we run into folks who they call us where they've been self-administering in a state. The court has allowed them to file the estate and then they come to us as the bonds people. And that's when we get them after the case has been filed. The bond has already been ordered. And what we run into is unfortunately we have to tell the majority of the majority of folks that, you know, your next step is to get an attorney rather than the bond. So, you know,

it varies based on that time spectrum when we get them in the door as far as when we're involved. So a lot of times we'll just defer them to an attorney and wait to apply for that bond until they've secured the attorney. What's the time period from when somebody applies for a bond to get at? How long does they actually get the bond issued? Well, that's one of the things I ran out to grab my notes for, Bill, is we've got some exciting new products. I have three different storefront, sort of speak, for bonds, and each one has a little bit different of an offering, so we can customize clients' bonding needs. On one of those platforms, we can do instant issue estate bonds now.

So in certain courts, if the applicant qualifies, so there are requirements there to get the instant issue. if it's under a certain dollar amount, their credit score is above a certain amount, then they're able to apply for that bond, pay for the bond, and immediately get the bond for printing. So that's, you know, the quickest we can do it is as fast as you can type in an application. Wow. So, and that's also based on states.

So that is primarily in right now in our in-house states, which are Arizona, Florida, Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio. So out of those five states, we're doing a pilot project and can do those instant bonds. So just stop for a second. For those, just, you know, help me, the audience here, if you're a real estate agent in those states, he just told you that they can get to bond instantly versus virtually every other company and even fill up until this time with this product, a bond would take it a minimum. They fill an application.

The customer sends it in. Somebody has to review it. In my experience, it was always a couple days minimum, two or three days by time you got the whole thing done where somebody highly motivated can get it done right away. And so this is the kind of thing that you can bring to your attorneys, you can bring to your fiduciaries, you can ask them how they applied for a bond, and they go, oh, yeah, I applied, and they want this, and again, he mentioned certain credit requirements, certain dollar amounts, so you'll be knowledgeable about this product. Now, this isn't, I'm in California, so it doesn't really apply directly to me.

But if you're in those states, he mentioned, and again, it was Texas, Florida, Arizona, Ohio, and where's your fifth state, Phil? Let me, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, Bill, but I just wanted to kind of off topic for 30 seconds here, if that's okay. Yeah, sure. In my announcing this event, I let everyone know I was going to buy them lunch. So, and I told them after 15 minutes. So this is the 15 minute mark. I just wanted to tell everyone how you can get that. And you can go to any of our websites and send us a message in the message content.

Just put free lunch. Send that to us and the first 20 folks that send that to me within the next hour. We'll send them a gift card for lunch. So that's my only diversion real quick, Bill, just because I said after 15 minutes. Oh, okay. No problem. So if folks want a free lunch. And so how would you get that again?

If you go to any of the websites, there's a QR code there. or if you go to the website, we talked about the website being probatecourtbond.com and you go there and message you put in the word free lunch. They'll get a free lunch. So there is a free lunch. I didn't know there wasn't for such a free lunch.

Absolutely. What will happen is you get a gift card in the email within a day or two. But yes, sir. But back to the states. We do in-house. We do Arizona, Florida, Indiana, Michigan. Yeah, we've worked in Texas, but for right now it's those five.

And Michigan is another big state. So in those five states, I would learn this product backwards and forwards. I mean, I'm not, again, I'm not in those five states, but I want to promote that to you as a competitive, compelling advantage. What an excuse to call your local attorney and say, hey, do you ever have customers who have difficulty getting bonds, or you're in a rush to get a bond right away? And look, if they're active, they may say, yes,

they might just appreciate hearing from you the information as a fantastic tool. So the bond process can be as quickly as online in other states or the people who don't meet the credit. And that's a very common thing of probate, that an error doesn't, you know, there might be an estate worth a million dollars, but the error just, you know, doesn't have, you know, a nickel and maybe have bad credit or maybe has a living in the house for free and never really launched. So for people with other than that, what's the process look like and when do they typically get in touch with you to apply for a bond? Sure, and then other states and in cases where we don't do the instant bond program, we are now able to issue bonds in all 50 states. So we have agreements with other licensed agents in all states.

And whether it's handled in-house within our agency or we submit that to an agent license in those areas, typically we'll have a reply and acknowledgement to applications within a couple of hours. and if everything checks out, there are no underwriting flags. We usually have that bond issued and sent to them either by email or overnight, you know, however they request that bond, usually within 24 hours or less, and often within a couple of hours. So you mentioned a couple of days earlier. A couple of days is really an unusual, very unusual for our agency,

unless there's some really strange issues or underwriting issues. You know, a couple of days is like worst case for us. You know, in California, I tell you, there's a bond company that really dominates L.A. and I think Orange County, and I think goes back to the days, well, a number of reasons why. They do a lot of marketing, and it goes back to the days when everybody went to court every day and they met people, create relationships. They did a good job. I mean, they really did a good job. I had good sales reps. But as a result, I feel like their service is just a notch below, you know, keeping up with what the best practices are. And so, again, I've used that to my advantage to say no training, we don't need to wait

two or three days. There's another vendor I use outside, besides foot, because they can do the California in-house. But again, I think for all of you, you should all find the right bond tool for that proposal and find some advantage to working with them. I've sold that bond company that would call inferior service in a case where I needed a large bond for somebody who was very creditworthy. And because I knew the relationship with the bank they worked with and we're able to get the bond approved that otherwise might not have been. So again, this is a tool in your toolbox for you to use this appropriate for your customers and your attorneys.

I'm not saying it's one size fits all. I'm not an affiliate of fills anyway. I'm not getting any money for this. I just really want to myself learn the tools, learn from him, and share with you guys the opportunities that we have in front of us. So the bond is, it seems to me most commonly the bond's issued for a year and then gets renewed. is that the standard practice and then the entire fee, if the probate goes 13 months, it becomes a two-year bond.

Is that common practice or is that just particular companies, particular underwriters? Well, with most bonds, they all renew annually until the court discharges that bond. So that's most bonds. We do have a few companies with a few offerings for minimum penalty bonds that are one-time payment. And those are an excellent resource for attorneys. that might be prosecuting a wrongful death case.

A lot of times they'll have to file a probate in order to prosecute that wrongful death. Well, that could go on for multiple years. If they could get the court to accept that minimum bond, it's only a one time. So that is another option that saves a whole lot of money. If you're, you know, if the anticipated settlement and you try to bond, you know, $2 million because that's what your anticipated settlement is, you could be saving, you know, thousands of dollars and just give you. that minimum penalty bond, which is a one-time payment until the court orders a higher bond.

And that's an interesting point you make, again, just to kind of put in context for real estate agents, soliciting online, looking to expand their business with attorneys, is that there's multiple attorneys that kind of play in the bond space backwards. And one is a wrongful death or any kind of civil attorney, because the client may have died or may have been alive when they started and died during the course of the legal matter. And so while they're not a probate attorney, now they are suing on behalf of an estate. While the state only exists if you file and get court approval to manage the estate. And so this is another reason why for any real estate agent to share this good information with your COI, your CIRB influence, which includes multiple

types of attorneys that will help you stand out as an expert. That's why learning these things are so important. So some bond products, you know, and I say the standard, under probate bond seems to renew every year. So you want to pay attention if your bond, if you're probate supposed to close within a year and it's going to go 14 months, it's going to cost them some extra money and all the reason why we want to, you know, shorten the time period if you can't, but let your customer know ahead time, that process exists. The paying of the bond is in advance of the bond being issued, right? You'll get the bond unless you make the payment. So let's talk a little bit about how would somebody know what the cost is of a bond. I know you

represent multiple lines and shop, therefore, for a competitive. product. How would a consumer or an attorney or a fiduciary know they're getting a good price on the bond? And how can they, you know, budget that before the process starts? Well, a couple of things to mention to you, Bill, is the first, as you mentioned, if the case goes 14 months, another important benefit that we have, we do have a few bonding companies that gives up to a 60-day grace period. So that means even if the bond is discharged, as long as it's within 14, not 12 months, but as they give you an extra 60 days, there's zero due on that extra for 60 days.

There's no renewal due. And that's really a big lot savings. Again, if you have a large bond, it's a $2 million bond, and it could be another $1,500, well, just get it discharged within that 60 days and we'll forgive the entire bond amount. And what was your question there, Bill? I'm sorry. How would one understand what the price is going to be?

Is there an estimating tool or do you have a general rule of thumb on the cost of bonds or how does that work? Sure, and we have over 16 different bonding companies rate sheets. So some attorneys or clients will call and they'll assume there's a certain percentage. And it really isn't that simple across the board because every company, they have a tiered system of percentages. So they might charge a different rate from, you know, 100,000 to 500,000 and then a different rate in several tiers. To address that, if anybody ever gets a bond and applies on our. probate court bond website. Those bonds are personally underwritten either by myself or one of our other

agents, and we always start with the lowest cost company. So a lot of agencies we see, they don't do that. They start with whatever is easiest for them to process or all sorts of other criteria. But we always start with the lowest price company based on the application. And that's where we get into underwriter and agent familiarity with the different bonding companies. Some companies don't like to see folks with felonies. Others are a little more lax on credit disputes. There's a whole plethora of things that you just have to know going into it who's going to accept what. And at the end of the day, if an attorney needs a price, they're welcome to either call us or send us an email and we'll give them a range of prices, you know, usually within a few minutes. I put the,

a website link into the chat box as well. And I think that this is, again, an opportunity that he just extended. You can contact him for a quote on a bond price. And this is the case where if you're talking to a fiduciary or an attorney, you might just ask, you know, do they feel like they're getting good pricing on their probate bonds? And what if I could save you a couple hundred dollars, would that be important to you? And so just by getting a second, knowing there's a second quote, because I think most

attorneys only know of one bond company, the one that somebody referred them to, or the one that they saw in court back pre-COVID when they went to court every day here in L.A. And having a second chance, you're talking about a bond, well, let me ask you this. In your business, are you able to share what's your average bond amount and what's the average annual premium for a bond? Just as a, just as a ballpark number, what are we talking about? Well, that's really hard to say because that's so dependent on the case. So it's like, what your electric cost is every month.

I don't know if you keep your thermostat on 60 or 85. Sure. But our minimum penalty bonds are probably by far, at least half more of our bonds. And those started $100. They typically go up to $40,000 in penalty. And that's just by the nature of many cases just require a minimum bond.

And there may not be any liquid assets. But, you know, bond prices go up from there. And, you know, we have, you know, a few insurance companies are the rates. I'm surprised at how low their rates are now. We just did a one and a half million bond in it. It was, I don't remember the specific fee, but it was at least 40% lower cost than our next lowest company. So, you know, it's also that comes into play. But it can add up.

It can be hundreds of dollars. It could be a couple thousand dollars. And I think if you can save three, four hundred dollars, you know, as a real estate agent, you know, I work with actual company that saves my seller, you know, $500 here and a bond company, a couple hundred dollars here and this, a couple hundred dollars. That's what our job is to create value for our customers. And it's not just the lower price. It's hopefully lower price for the same more superior service and a personal connection. And I do know that most attorneys have never talked to the bond company. They have some person and an email, they send their request to, and they just

assume it comes back. You're giving them a chance to save some money, hopefully. And tailor the bond to the customer in a way that makes a lot of sense. Hey, we are doing this live on Zoom. For those you who are on, you're welcome to ask questions. I know we've got one question, which was the URL of Phil's company, and it's probatecourtbond.com, probatecourtbond.com, and that's in the chat box. And you can go on there and you can do the application align for the autoply bonds. If you're in the state, say he does that. You also can reach out to him to send an email request for a quote on a bond, and he's more glad to do that as well. Be be given with the questions.

And then when we rebroadcast this onto LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube, you're welcome to ask questions. I check those as well regularly, and we'll come back with any questions. Just a little bit of housekeeping real quick, so I kind of catch us up on where we are. This is probateweekly.com. We do this every Thursday at 9 a.m. We don't live on Zoom calls. So if you register at probateweekly.com for your email address in, you'll get a link with

the Zoom contact. And if you scroll down, you can also subscribe to us or hear us on the various audio version, Spotify, Apple, and such. And then if you like the video version, YouTube, we can get all the past episodes here by clicking on the YouTube link. We continue the conversation on Facebook at Probate Weekly. It's a probate a group we have in Facebook with a couple thousand real estate agents. Go for it to go there and post your content. You know, it's one way to get more views and likes is to go in. Mostly this is mine by office.

Here you go. Rehn Kessler puts his probate health desk videos in there. And here is Bernie Stefan who does his. His video was a great video, by the way. And he has a great website for resources, by the way. So great resources. You want to learn. Great resources if you want to share your business. I also am really excited to share that I am on now KGCI Real Estate on the air. K is the kind of the traditional real estate call letter for west of the Mississippi versus East, I think was W. And GCI Gross Commission income, obviously. is an allusion to realtors making more money. This is a 24-7 online radio station.

I'm on once a week on Wednesdays at 3 o'clock, but there's great contests. I kind of think I play at my desk to listen to motivation and insights on real estate, so feel free to join in there. Our guest today is, again, Phil, Pavarini Jr., who is a probate-assurity bond expert and has insurance company. More importantly, you can see him in his business

at probatecourtbond.com. He really is a marketing genius, And so I'm really excited to have mine share kind of his mindset and how he approaches these things and can help us. So let's talk a little bit, Philip Franklin County Pib, a little bit about from what probably bonds are. And, you know, one thing about you that has always impressed me is you're always doing something of marketing. I think that, you know, cure code up there. You've got the freelance shop promo. I know you're always changing the websites and the domain names and such.

Kind of give me an overview. How do you approach the marketing part of your business? I think the first thing folks need to realize is you have to be hungry. So if you're doing good and you're busy and you have some extra time, I don't have a whole lot of hobbies. I like to try to age productivity. And I almost call it a shotgun approach where I try to do as many different marketing things as we can. And hopefully enough of it sticks that someday whenever you see some of that slowdown or stop, you know I made it big.

So that's what I think happened. Some of these other companies are agencies that might not give as high of service or personal service or a lot of agencies won't necessarily put a bond with the lowest price or whatever it is just because they don't need to. They have enough business coming in the door that they could really, and not for better or worse, it doesn't matter if they give that extra 10 minutes of attention. So, you know, as long as I'm in business, I'm here to help folks. And even to my own detriment, I mean, I've, on a regular basis, I try to tell folks, you know, let's get you approved for a hundred thousand bond.

But let's issue it for the 20, just so you pay the flat rate until the court orders it higher. And then, you know, we know that you're approved for the higher amount. You don't have to worry about that. But, you know, we're going to save you money on the front. So the best I can tell you, Bill, is I just try to approach everything we do as if I was the customer. you know, I've been on that customer end a lot of times, and it's really shocking to see how many businesses now in all industries just don't, they don't seem to know right from wrong anymore for a lack of a better way to describe things. So in my opinion, I try to reflect that and just show

that, you know, I care about your business and I care about each individual when they call me as if they were my own family, you know, that was looking for a bond. And anymore, it's It's really far in between where I run across other vendors in any industry like that. So, yeah, I do my best and hope for the best. You know, it's funny to say that because I feel the same way. And about you, I mean, I get that about you. And that's what attracted me from the beginning. And even though, you know, we haven't done a lot of business together, I've certainly learned

a lot from you. And I really do try to pay attention to what you do to learn and improve my business. There's a saying I've always gone by, which is hungry dogs hunt best. and I think that when you're, you know, when you really love the business, you want to do well, not because you need it to pay your rent or for food, but you do it because you just love the hunt. You love the competition. You love helping people. You're going to do a better job.

I think that's reflected in your marketing efforts and activities. So talk a little bit about, you know, do you work with any particular real estate agents? Are there people who bring you business that are realtors? And if no, what do you think that is? I mean, obviously, we all have the same customers at some point. Why is it that more real estate agents aren't learning about probate bonds, sharing with their fiduciaries and their attorneys' information? Well, Bill, I guess I have to lend you a compliment on that, to answer that question,

is most real estate agents are not involved with probate as often or as in detailed amounts as some agents might be, like you do a lot. I guess probably the majority of your clients might involve probate in some way. And from what I've run across, most agents are real estate agents are not really focusing on probate. It might be something incidental that they run across a couple times a year, but they're not dealing with folks day in and day out. So I think that's a big reason that, you know, is far away from real estate.

I just think the time that the real estate agent is involved versus when a bond is needed, it just doesn't always, you know, usually your real estate agent is going to come well after a case has even been filed in court, you know, until families start to think about selling. They're not even talking to a realtor. Right. And yet when they, when they decide they want to get approved, they're going to need a bond, right? You can't sell the house in many cases without the letters. You can't get the letters in most cases about the bond. And so, you know, they can think they're going to do what they're going to do. And they often get tripped up by the little things and one of the little things can be the bond process. And so if you can help unlock that early, that creates, rather than just telling people how you're the expert, you can actually show them just by asking a couple questions about the bond.

And then turning them over to you, I guess, if they have any real questions on how they actually turn it into business. So let me, I'll put you on the spot a little bit, but I want you to be honest. I want you feel free to say no. if a real estate agent in another state, you know, particularly the states that you're home in, again, Ohio, Indiana, Arizona, Florida, and I forget the fifth. Michigan and Ohio. Yeah. Michigan.

Michigan, Ohio are rivals and then Indiana's nearby there. And then Arizona and Florida is my home away from home. I just got back from it. So if you're in those states in particular, if a real estate agent called you, say, hey, I'd like to just do a short interview with you about the bonds to share with my attorneys or my future perspective personal reps. Is that something that you would do?

Or have you done that before? Is anybody called you to do that before? And specifically to help? I'm sorry, just recap. Just to interview you about it. And just talk like we did here. If a real estate agent called you wanted to do a, I mean, I know you've been very gracious to come on here.

And for those who are listening, I'm not paying Phil. I'm getting money from him. I'm not paying him beyond. He's just a nice guy. And I called him a couple years ago. And he said yes. And I called back because I think he's just a great guy. I want to share. But if a real estate agent called you wanted to do a similar five or 10 minute

video interview about bonds and maybe more a deep dive on their particular state, what requirements and what offerings you have, is that something that you'd be able to do? Oh, absolutely. And I'll extend that beyond our five states. I'm happy to have a conversation with any realtor or attorney or bond principal or fiduciary in any state. They're welcome to call and I'm happy to give them my opinions. A lot of times I'm going to pre-qualify myself when I'm having those conversations and let you know these are my opinions. So I'm not an attorney. I can't give you financial advice or real estate advice, but I'm happy to share what my experiences have been in probate or bonds or that sort of thing. Absolutely. And I think for those, and I point is to those you're listening

on the call or listening to replay, this is an opportunity. You know, we all, as real estate agents know, we need to reach out to our customers. They're all star for content. What do I do? What kind of content? Well, here's one. Phil's the easy guy I talk to, as you can see. And I would just urge you all to help promote your business by asking questions and then get very

specific in your state about what offerings he has and doesn't have, leave those out and focus on ones that he does have. So you can really be a value to your attorneys. And that way, when you make the referral, you can also send the video and say, hey, I also did an interview with him where he talks about these and details. And it's going to help pre-sell. and pre-sell bill as a vendor in those cases. So I would urge everybody to try to take advantage of that and his generosity.

Okay, so how has the real estate market overall, you know, is off, you know, in sales by 30% or more, which means overall there's less business for real estate agents. Some are doing well, some are not doing well. The average is off by 30% obviously. in my case, I think I'm doing it the same as I did last year. I'm tracking on kind of the same numbers. How does the change in the real estate market affect your business or does it affect your business as far as the probate specifically? Well, a few things there to comment, Bill, and we're back to how dedicated you are and how much you care. And I can see that as well. So I would venture to

say that your sales are not going to go down. They're going to go up even in a climate where others are going down because not, again, many vendors just don't quite get it. They don't know right from wrong in my opinion. And you do. So congratulations on that. But directly, other than the thing that affects our business more than that would be the aging population. So it's not necessarily real estate market, good or bad. It's, you know, when we're dealing with probate, it's when folks pass away or they need guardians or that sort of thing. And for better or worse, that's only going to get more busy in the next 20, 30 years as our population ages. including myself. So it'll be me sooner or later or everyone that will have to deal with that.

Yeah. And the way I did thank you for the answer. And I think the Simmons of mine, I would say, I would describe it as it's, you know, my wife one day said, well, you're really lucky that in a declining market, your business isn't dropping because people are dying at increasing numbers, not lower numbers. The downside is that it's an attractive mark niche that's attracting a lot of new competitors. And what I find are people who jump in and spend a dare to trying it and they realize it's hard. And I will say, I do feel like I work maybe twice as hard for the same business, twice as hard

for maybe a little more business, knowing that in the long run, when the market turns around, I'll benefit from it. So I don't mind it. And I think that if you enjoy what you do, then working harder isn't a bad thing. It just is what is. You know, imagine, you know, the Yankees or Dodgers last night, you know, is it harder to strike the guy out? Is it harder to get the hit?

Yeah. I bet you're still playing the game. You might as well play and play hard. And that's how I feel about our real estate. And obviously meeting vendors and talking and learning about their business and then bringing that back to my clients is really what I do. And I would urge everybody on this call to do as well. Okay.

So last thing I wanted to kind of cover is just as a general business practice, I think that you do as, oh, I've got a hand up there. Let me get Bernie first. I'll go back to my question. Bernie, let's bring you in. How can we help you? What do you got going on? Yeah, thank you, Bill and Phil. Phil, I would like a little more help and understanding

when are the bonds required in a probate? Always, or when there's contentiousness amongst potential beneficiaries? Or in California, of course, we have limited and full authority. Is it more in limited authority? Just some guidance on when does the judge decide a bond is required? Sure, happy to answer you, Bernie. Thank you for the question. And that's going to be so state-specific and jurisdiction-specific that it would be really hard to answer.

I'm happy to answer in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with. But California has a lot of very different procedures that most states don't have. No way. No way. There's many things in California that are just so off the different than what I might be familiar with. No, tell me it's not true. Yeah, for better or worse, right?

No, that might be a different podcast. I'm happy to join you. I do that one too, by the way. I have that podcast too, but that's another one. Yes, thank you. Good. I might join you. Let me know.

We'll talk politics. I'm not here, though. But as far as the bonds go, in our state, the bond is set by court rule. So the bond specifies if the estate meets certain criteria, that's going to require a bond of two times the value of the estate. And that is just right in the court rules. Now, the caveat to that is in some of the larger counties, like our home county, we might have 30 different magistrates. and each one of those magistrates, they are legally allowed to make orders,

and they vary from what the court rules say. So even though the court rules say that, you know, under these circumstances, you need a bond, we very often have magistrates order bonds in excess of what's required, or sometimes they'll waive a bond when I would think it would be needed. So that's, you know, so specific.

Now, you mentioned disputes. we've had more and more disputes lately. It's been probably going up to about one a week I'm getting now, is estates with disputes are almost impossible to bond. So once any member in that estate is, you know, disputes something and it's on the record, a bonding company is almost always going to require a waiver from all the people in the estate before they'll issue that bond. So then a lot of times folks ask, well, you know, why does the bonding company get to decide who qualifies?

You know, the court just ordered this bond. Why isn't why isn't the bonding company issuing the bond? The court ordered it. And that's when we go back to qualifications and risk of being payable on the bond. So when there are disputes, it's almost like buying a claim. You know, you know that there's a good, much better. possibility of a bond claim coming in when you're working on an estate with a dispute. So I don't know if that answered your question.

Well, that's very helpful, Phil. It does. I thought the bonds came into play when it was a dispute. Now you're letting me know that it's really almost impossible to get a bond when there's a dispute. So that really does answer my question. Thank you. Since so much of our audience is California-based, let me give a little more specific California information as well. Again, not legal advice, but business advice, which is if you read the probate code, you're going to find and hear the judges say that there are cases where the bond can be waived if it's waived in the will. So wills are properly written. We'll say that they'll allow, you know, the bond be waived. And if it's there and it's, and the bond, the will

appears to be in good order. Oftentimes, the judge will accept that as a way to waive a bond because they've already identified who they want to manage the will, this state, and the will anticipated that properly. Absent that, I think almost every case in California, a filibular to the minimum, and in California, it's a $20,000 minimum, which costs $100 or $200, whatever. But there's the paperwork involved, and some people don't qualify. And so sometimes we need the attorney to sign on the bond to get it approved

or other issues or multiple. underwriters, take it back to, you know, the bond company rejects it. Well, that's when you could call Phil and say, hey, this one was rejected. Can you help us out? Maybe a second set of eyes on it. We'll get a minimum approved. And then in California, we often, the standard bond is for the estimated amount of the assets based on the application of the petition. And so, you know, if you have a house in California, that could be, you know, half a million dollars or a million dollars. That gets to be a fairly expensive bond for somebody who may not be credit worthy. And that's really where this comes in in California is an issue. And even though the court will say, well, you know, you want to apply

for full authority, fine, require a bond. And the judge says they have to have a bond. But as Phil said, that doesn't mean the bond companies will bond it. They'll tell you go find another bond company. We don't want to do it. And so that's where sometimes cases come back as needing full authority because either the petitioner isn't bondable and they don't know. away around that, which is our job. Or second, there's an objection filed, in which case you can't get the bond and the court authority in California

would be limited authority. So instead of needing a bond, the court's going to is going to, you know, monitor every check, basically, so there's nothing happening without money. So that's got beef over in California. Thank you, Bill. Thanks, Bernie. Thanks so much for jumping in

and being a sport. Appreciate it. Sure. Okay. So the last thing I wanted to ask you about, because I do know your homestead was Ohio. I know that you've pushed a little bit more of your business by percentage out. One of the things I've noticed to go back to the issue of market maybe, even though it's growing, being more competitive, one answer to that is expanding your geographical base. I know a lot of businesses that have done that.

I know in California, so many of our businesses in California have to operate their states because it's so hard to operate in California. I know as a real estate agent, I've really built a national platform. I get referrals from my network across the country. Talk a little bit about where are you on that process? Are you looking to grow geographically? Is that a key part of your business?

Is that just something that organically happens for you? Is that something that you're pushing? Definitely looking to grow in ad states and jurisdictions where we can write bonds. I'd say the most bonding agents and insurance agencies, are geographical in nature. So when they're marketing, they're marketing to California or L.A. or that sort of thing. And those companies, they offer a wide plethora of different products. So I've taken a little different approach and where I like to concentrate and probate. We will do all sorts of surety bonds, any fidelity or surety bond available that you need in

the United States we have. We have special products for like Florida has a professional guardian program. We have the lowest price on those bonds. And adding those additional states allows me to continue focusing on the specific probate market. So that's why we're looking to add more states and why we've built the partnerships with, for instance, the national referral bonding that we can do. And again, I know, again, for those listening, I want you to think about this for your business. Here's a successful business person who's done well for a period of time, who's telling you that he's pushing out geographically as a way to expand his opportunities. I think it's where his realtors have to think about that as well, whether you're

just in your local market, how to expand within the state you're licensed in, how do you do business in multiple states. I'm with the XP Realty. We can do business nationally through referrals and a commercial business. We can do business nationally as well. So this is something we need to be thinking about how do you, and that's why I built my probate business. To be honest, the way I did was because I realized that many agents can't do probate effectively because it's so spread out geographically compared to regular real estate. You have somebody who died in L.A., but you own property in Orange County, maybe in Northern California, maybe Nevada, how do I create value?

And then how do I get paid for as much of that as possible? And the answer is to think about building your business. And Phil's been a great example of that. I've kind of watched what he's done and try to copy some of those best practices. So thanks so much. Okay. Well, I think we're kind of at the end here, Phil. Just a real quick recap.

This is Probate Weekly. We do this every Thursday at 9 a.m. Pacific Time, 12 noon live on a Zoom call. Love to have you join us. Register at Probat Weekly.com. All you need is your email address. You'll get an email with a Zoom link every week. If you scroll down, you can also subscribe on the various audio format, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and such. And you can see the past episodes on YouTube if you're interested.

We continue the conversation on Facebook. Our Facebook group is Probate Weekly. You can go there and join that group, put your email address, and then you can post your content. So, way to get more views, more likes, more engagement, as well as to learn. Other content is focused there. I am now approved and a regular on KGCI Radio on the Air. You can go to KGCI Radio on the Air, either online on your browser, or they have now an Apple and Google application.

You can go search for KGCI Real State on the Air, download the app, and you can listen to great content 24-7. Our guest today is Phil Pavarini. He is an expert in ProPibon's. I was scoring down his content while I was talking to him because he has some really good post. He has kind of an interesting sense of humor as well. But definitely go there and meet, a link up with him, but also take a look at his content

that you can repurpose for your business. And lastly, our guest, Phil Pavarini, is at Probatecourtbine.com. And he offered, if you reach out to him through the very social media channels and put the word in free lunch, for those you don't believe it, you can get a freelance, right, Phil? That's right. And right on that page you just had up, there's a button in the middle of that screen where it says send a message. And that's right where you have to go or any of our websites. We do have America's surety bonds.com, find surety bond.com, and then the probate

court bond.com. And each one of those websites, it is a different offering. So you will access a different market, sort of speak, if you're looking for instant bonds or nationwide bonds or that sort of thing. Just reach out to me and I'll let you know where the best to apply is. But absolutely, I would love to send everyone who sends me that, send secure message there and then puts in free lunch in the content. And we will send you a gift card within a day or two. Fantastic. Well, Phyllis, always a pleasure, chat with you. Appreciate seeing all the progress you've made since the last time we talked. Thanks for all you do for the industry and for probate weekly and for our participants. Thanks so much for being on again today.

And thank you so much for having me, Bill, and I'll look forward to next time. And I'll look forward to that invite on the political discussion. Okay, yeah, I'll send you to link to that. I do a weekly podcast on the real estate market. And inevitably, in California, real estate is very political, whether it be our government helping squatters destroy real estate value or limiting building new homes or just in general attacking real estate agents in favor of online services. It's a regular topic I talk about, so I'll seem to link to that as well.

So thanks so thanks so much, appreciate it. For the rest of you, thank you so much for being on today. Probate Weekly, I'm Bill Gross at Bill Gross Probate, or Bill Grossprobate.com as the website. I'd love to help you if I can reach out, ask questions. If you go to that link down below, you can book a call whether you're an agent looking for coaching. I don't sell coaching. I'd be glad to help you, give you some advice. If you're an attorney or personal representative with some questions, feel free to reach out. Have a great week, everybody. Thank you so much. And thanks again, Bray, for your support.