KGCI: Real Estate on Air - Probate Litigation Attorney Mina Sirkin

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Our guest is an attorney. She's ringing a little late in Southern California, but she's a great guest. I've done a lot of business with and really want to share her insights to you guys. I think she'll be very, very valuable for you if you're looking to build your business as a real estate practitioner or investor in the space. Let me just go real quick, answer some questions up front, and then feel free to ask any other questions in the chat box while we get started. Eva asks, is important of the case number when you write up the listing agreement. F. Are you in California? I'm going to assume the answer is from Lancaster. Yeah. So in California, we have the California Association Realtors. We use now the regular residential purchase agreement with a probate addendum. We used to have a separate probate purchase agreement. We don't have that anymore for residential property.

In the probate addendum, it will ask you for the case number. It will also ask you when you have a signer, who's an entity signer on a purchase contract, you want the case number as well. But is it essential to you have the case number? I don't think you have to have it when you sign the listing. I don't think your listing isn't valid without it. I would say ask your broker how they manage that. But I would say at our company, I believe, if you have a listing agreement and left off the case number, it's still a valid listing contract, but it's more precise.

I think one of the things that I try to teach on this call is there's a right way to do everything, and you want to do the right way. And one right way is have the case number and have it on the form and maybe even look up the file or have information from your client about the case. So I would say it's the right way to do business is to have the case number of the document. Why not? But I would definitely not listing the property until I have it. Right. That's a personal decision you can make. And I would urge you talk to your particular broker on how they hold on this. Okay, so we're going to turn off, unmute themselves. We're going to let people do that. Okay, good. So if they answer is your question,

Eva, but again, I think it depends on your broker. I'm with the XP RELT. T. and we could take the listing, but I would say it's not the right way to do it, and we're going to get amended at some point when we're there. Saunders says hi from Burbank, hey from Burbank. Kelly Conley from Long Beach, down the 562, Kelly, always great to have you on board. Feel free anybody who wants to put your information in chat box. It's meant to be referrals. It's meant to be helping each other.

If you're a vendor as well, if you're a lender or title rep, feel free to reach out for your information in as well. Karen's amazing from the OC. I grew up in the OC, so I'm definitely all for that. A question for attorney gets, what authority, if any, does the order for probate provide? They're not provided by the letters of administration. Wow. So I think you're going to find that the letters administration document the authority,

and on the order that the judge signs, it's going to say limited or full. They're just going to check the box. And then from there, you're going to have to understand what the law means for your particular client. But we'll ask me, you know, when she's online, to give more detailed. But I would say that the letters of authority are more of a form. And on the actual probate order, it has the checkbox for full or limited. And then those are the two types of, as far as we're mostly concerned with as real estate agents to sell the real property, the full authority generally means you don't need to have court approval,

though that can change if there's objections. And limit authority almost always means you need court approval of the sale of property. And so that will determine there the type of authority that the court grants you. they answer to your question, but we'll ask again when me and so on. Alex asked, what's the most effective way to prospect probates? So Alex, where do you do business, Alex? Because I would say the answer to that, having done this myself for a while now, LA County, okay, so you're a neighbor of mine.

I would say that having done this for a while, it varies based on where you are. It varies based on your market. And I'd also say it varies based on your business. meaning, I say when you start out in real estate, you need to talk to a lot of people. Generally, you need to call three hours a day and talk to as many people as you can. And by doing that, you'll learn how to convert the leads you do get into business. So I would always urge somebody who's new into business to start with the phone calling. Or emails.

I would say the emails are probably of limited value because the few that have emails get so much attention that they're going to probably disregard or go to junk. And by definition, you're spamming people because you don't have permission to email them. So I would say I'm not aware of anybody who's built their business emailing probate attorneys or probate petitioners via email. I do know several based on phone calls.

I've done it myself and done well with it. So I definitely recommend making phone calls. I might add to that that you might set up postcards but my rule would be not to postcard anybody that I'm not also in contact on the phone with. I would never mail something to somebody that I couldn't also call them back. Okay, Eva says, I have four. I remember what four is. What is that in answer to?

Eva from Lancaster. Oh, you have four listings or four properties? Is that what you're referring to? You know, we've got a lot of questions, so I'm going to, it's kind of hard to keep up with her. Eva, I'm not sure what your four has to do with, but, oh, for that case numbers, you have four listings. Okay, got it. So, yeah, I don't think you need the listing. But what I will say is that, technically speaking, a listing is not binding on the signer until not only they have a case number filed, but the court gives them the authority to sign the contract.

Just think about it, the person's owned by, let's say, Joe Smith and he passes away. If Joe Smith passes away, he can't sell his own house. That's the definition of probate is you need the court. And there's our guest, me, by definition, they can't sell their own house. So if you haven't filed probate yet, it's difficult because the person who owns a property is passed. They file the probate, and then they are able to seek authority from the court. Once they have the authority, they're then able to sign up. a binding contract.

And so there's a question. In fact, that's one question I'm going to ask Mina about signing when you don't have the contract. Mina, welcome to our call. Hi, thank you for having me, and I apologize for being late. That's okay. Well, we know you're busy. I'm not paying your full billable rate.

I'm not paying your normal state of rate or whatever you call it. So I can't afford to be too particular. It's always great to see you. Meena, how are you doing? Well, how about you? Yeah. You travel quite a lot. a bit. You had some COVID stuff. He had some good family stuff going on. We've been talking a long time.

So I'm really excited to have you on and we started kind of answering some questions up front. But let's kind of go back to the beginning here and start with you. Can you give us a little background? Where did you grow up? And then how did you get into law? And then how do you get into probate specifically? So I'm originally Iranian. I lived in Iran until about when I was 12 years old. Wow. Then my family moved to the United States after the Iranian Revolution and at some point my father got a job in Los Angeles so we ended up here in Los Angeles. Now that was many many many years ago but that's sort of how things started with me

you know being here. And what else did I want to tell you what was the next question you had? I'm sorry. Well let's talk about how you got in the law. I mean I think every Persian family you have to be a doctor or a dentist or attorney is that the rule yes yes they don't want to do anything else actually that that's sort of true um i couldn't be a dentist my mother was a dentist all the way till she turned 85 years old she practiced wow i couldn't take it i couldn't stand blood so that was not the career for me and i had a couple cousins who were lawyers so i decided to try to see if that was something that was suitable for me. But I originally wanted to actually become an architect,

and my father wouldn't have it. So that's how I ended up in law. Wow. And then how did you end up in probate? Because you are what I always describe as the type of attorney that we want or for business to, that you specialize, in your case, even specialize, specialize. You're in probate. And then within probate, your husband does more administration,

and you focus more litigation, how did you end up in probate specifically? When I was in law school, I went to school at night and I worked during the day, so I worked for a gentleman who did estate planning and probate, so that's all I learned how to do. And when I was looking for a job, you know, just after I passed the bar, people wanted to give me a job where workers' comp lawyers or PI lawyers, and that was not something that I was interested in. So I decided to give it a shot.

And against my husband's former boss's advice, I decided to set up shop. And after about a year, things were working, and I was getting clients and my husband then left that firm and joined me. So that's how things got started. Well, uh-oh, is there some relation to you between the two attorneys there?

Be careful. Sexual harassment, you know how those laws are today. Be very careful. Well, we were already married by that time, so it was a little too late for that. Well, it's not too late for that, actually. You're married, so hopefully it's a good thing for you guys to play in the office or something. So good. So, and then I think I had that correct, right?

You guys, as a law firm, when I go to your website, it just says Los Angeles probate a circling law that you guys are firmly in that niche. And I think as a real estate agent, there's nothing worse than having a client who calls me up and says they want me to list the house, they're in probate, they have an attorney already, they're already filed. I search them online, and I see. that that attorney specializes in DWI's family law, probate law, criminal law, 15 other things they never even heard it before.

And what I came to learn in my experience in the court was that the best attorney is the ones really specialized in a niche. So you've gotten all in on this. Was that a business decision? I just worked that way for you or how did you end up? It just worked out that way. It wasn't anything that we could say was intentional, but we both sort of, My husband came from a real estate and business background.

And when he joined my firm, he was at the same, at the time he was involved in that sort of thing. But quickly everything sort of shifted into planning and administration. And with planning and administration always comes probate. So it was a very quick shift in terms of, you know, what we were doing. But, you know, his practice started with another firm. So his, you know, he brings with him some of that experience as well as trust the state's litigation. And I also think I ever told you this, but I really learned a lot from you about networking at the court because I noticed how you have relationships, deep relationships, pre-COVID with the other attorneys in the probate bar. And as a result, got referrals from them, gave referrals to them, like things that you didn't do, things that they don't.

do I just noticed that was a but it was really natural it wasn't like you were on the hunt for business you were just developing relationships can you talk a little bit about that process was it natural was it was it was very natural some of it is obviously you know conscious but I think most of it is natural I think you have to like to make friends in whatever area you practice then whether it's real estate whether it's law or any other business and figure out who's doing what that you're not doing or what complementary businesses are sort of on the side of what you do that you can help other people. And, you know, over time, you know, those people will refer back to you.

And I don't think one can expect an immediate return from networking. If you're expecting that it be immediate, that's not how it works. At least not, that hasn't been my experience. My experience has been that it takes two to three years to build these relationships. During COVID, it was kind of hard because, you know, I haven't been to the courthouse since COVID started. But I have to still maintain the same relationships with the same, you know, set of people so that they benefit from my services and over time, perhaps they refer back to us.

So you have to find other ways to network. Some of the networking comes by, you know, picking up the phone and calling is always a good way and trying to figure out how you can be of service to the other folks is really the key. But Bill's a master at networking. I've watched him at the courthouse. I know how he does it. He does it with intention. I'm more like on the periphery of intention, but Bill's got an agenda. He's got a plan. of action he's got a list so if you're a realtor in the real estate business follow what he says what he says works i've watched i was one of his victims as as he would call it so i actually met i met bill at the courthouse when he was doing his networking and um that's how i was able to do business with bill but um i joke with him and i say you know one of his victims but i think he's that I benefited from his service to my client.

And my client was very happy with his services. In fact, that case just went into, you know, basically went into probate today after, you know, three years of mitigation. But one of the things that I watched Bill do is I watched him figure out how to deal with a possible foreclosure. That's something that we were facing. And he came in and rescued that case

from an inevitable foreclosure and got things wrapped up so that we were able to sell it while in probate, while the two people were actually fighting with each other. So that was a crazy one. Still is a crazy one, I guess it's still ongoing. Well, yes, it is ongoing, unfortunately, because sometimes people just can't agree with anything, even if the judge orders them.

one or another. One thing amazes me, I'm sorry. One thing amazes about you in, in attorneys in general, I think that you're very good at this, you're a master at this, is that on one case, you're litigating against somebody, right? So here you're the higher gun to financially maybe ruin the other side

or cause them harm from their perspective. In your case, enforce the rights for your client and get your client what's fair and just. and you do it, you have to do in a way that you and the, you know, you do your job professionally. You can't, you know, you have to have the proper lurly to demeanor in court and in the process whilst the judge is going to get on you. But you also in a way that the other attorney seems to appreciate and respect you more, not less at the end of the deal.

I think of the realtor's, the nature of real estate agencies, we go so quickly to emotions and so quickly to fighting, and it just seems that it's more common amongst attorneys in particular to kind of hold on to that or not show it to each other somehow. And in your case, to build a relationship. So that attorney down the road says, hey, I mean, you know, I don't really litigate. Can you help me with this client? And that becomes a business for you.

What does that come from? Or how does that happen? Or is that just something you develop over time? Well, first of all, I think there is a sense of respect that goes on, you know, with the other parties, you know, with the other opposing counsel. I think you have to have some respect for what they do. We are hired guns. Everybody that represents somebody is hired to accomplish a particular end.

Nobody really wants to destroy the other side. I think that that's a perception from a client's perspective, but that really isn't the way that things work in real life, is that if you go all the way out to destroy somebody, you know, deals don't get made. cases don't get settled you end up in trials unfortunately sometimes that happens anyway but um i think that if you have a rapport with the other side and you can help settle the case number one a settlement gets your client what they need faster okay and at a lesser cost i and i think

those are forgotten things sometimes in the midst of emotions clients forget that And they want to go all the way to trial, not knowing how much that trial is going to cost. But from an attorney's perspective, you know, we're here to close the case. We're here to get everybody. Nobody likes exactly what happens in a settlement. Nobody is happy with the exact amount of the settlement, but it's something everybody can live with. So we encourage people to go to mediation. And often enough, it is a subtle.

art of rapport but a forceful representation along with rapport. So it's kind of a mixed bag of things. That's why it's called settlement. It's not win-ment because both sides don't win. Both sides have to settle to get to the middle at some point. One question I love to ask attorneys, have you seen the movie, My Cousin Vinnie? What are you thoughts of that movie? I love the movie. I thought it was great. I really enjoyed it. I think I've seen it more than one time, actually. To your recollection, is that a fair way, at least the judge is trying to enforce a certain lawyerly demeanor? I try to tell real estate agents, when you go in court, you want to act like an attorney, you want to dress like an attorney, you want to act like an attorney, you want to know the rules.

Is that fair representation of that? I know it's comedy, but do you see it that way? It is a fair representation. I think no matter where you are, I think whether or not you're in court or you're in any kind of business, you want to blend in with the rest of the folks. So if the judges are used to seeing you with a jacket on, although now the requirements is somewhat looser, they prefer that because it's also a sign of respect to the court that, you know, you put a jacket on today. That means that you went that, you know, you put that extra effort. So if you're a realtor going to court, I think that would be helpful to you, you know, doing that.

You know, I was on the case I did with you that you talked about where I think technically it was the temporary administrator, so it was technically representing both sides as the realtor. I was called as a witness. At that time, I was in Florida on vacation with my wife, and I packed a suit in a white shirt and a silk tie so that when I was called in and it was brief and it wasn't a big deal. But to go in front of the judge, I wanted to look appropriate because, the judges remember you. And I think one of the things, you know, at a small level, I've had judges I've been through several times and I've earned a certain amount of respect and appreciation. And I know you as well. You've been in front of judges and I've seen them say because of who you

are, they'll make an agreement or they'll make a concession or they'll trust you for something. So talk about the value of the reputation that you have with the judges. Now it's more difficult, obviously, with the video versus being in court, but I'm sure it's still a important to your practice, isn't it? It is important. I think that there is a sense of trust that comes with many years of practice. I've been doing probate for 30 years.

So I have seen most of the judges at least several times. And we have 10 of 10 probate judges in LA just in the downtown LA and not counting any of the periphery, the outer courts and Antelope Valley. So you know, you come across the same people over and over and over again. There is a sense of comfort knowing that, you know, sometimes they've seen my papers go through before and they realize that, you know, I, you know, these are standard things for us.

Just like anything else. I mean, if you went to the dentist and you went to the same dentist for 30 years, there is a level of trust between you and the dentist. You know, that's another professional. But, you know, it would be. be somewhat the same concept because the judges look at us as people who are professionals in their courtroom. So I think, yeah, there is a sense of trust that, you know, I'm certainly not one of those people who would be trying to do anything. Most of what I do is pretty, you know, simple and straightforward.

And what isn't simple and straightforward has to be put in papers based on some law. something out there right but I mean I've seen I've seen judges I think there's a little bit of discretion I'm sorry I'm sorry I lost you for a second you're saying that I would appreciate I think you you would appreciate being in front of the same set of people yourself because there there is a level of comfort when you appeared in front of the same judge let's say ten times you kind of know they're demeanor. You know what they expect. Right. So now

this is a little sensitive. So if you want to bow out of this question, I get it, but I have to ask it, at least try. So, you know, having gone to court quite a bit and also having watched video now you can see the whole now you can see the whole case being called more easily.

I recognize attorneys like you who are knowledgeable and experienced and know the flow and know the procedure and follow the procedure. And I'm sure like me, again, if you're not comfortable, you also see those that aren't. You see the attorney who might be one of the world's great attorneys and one of the great legal minds, but maybe has never done a probate case in La San Gis County ever before

and is stunned when the judge asks things like, have you checked the notes? And they go, well, what are the notes? I've seen that happen. That's like the classic. So you see, you see that what, taking off your hat as a businesswoman, but maybe just talking to families that are considering hiring an attorney, what should go into? How do they evaluate from the outside, the right attorney, and what should they do to avoid what I see is it could be a great attorney. It could be a great human being. They just don't know what they're doing a probate,

and it affects their outcome. I see that all the time. I think there's about three different levels of experience in any field, given whether it be law or anything else. And I think you have to ask yourself the question of, Does the person have their requisite experience I need? Sometimes people come into a, whether it be a probate case or any kind of case, believing that they can use this lawyer to accomplish a limited end of things, for example.

And sometimes people will select a younger lawyer because they, you know, they tend to charge less, etc. With that, of course, there's, you know, experience has a value. So sometimes you get a young lawyer, maybe they'll charge you, you know, X dollars per hour, but you may pay for the learning over time. Sometimes you go with a middle of the road lawyer with, you know, relevant experience. And, you know, depending on clients' willingness to pay, they may or may not be willing to pay. And then you have the third level, which is, you know, hiring a specialist, hiring especially is expensive in any field but you don't pay them to learn you that that has been

done before so you are getting the benefit of their experience in exchange for their hourly rate whatever that be but i think a good question in any field would be you know where where are you in this specific experience that i need how many probates have you done for for example, to completion, not just the beginning. How many sales have you done to completion? Those are two different things. I can do many different probates and not do a single sale.

That's sometimes a large possibility. And then depending on whether or not you have a case that has a simple litigation, that's another set of requirements, and then one that a complex litigation it has the different set of requirements but sometimes you have to pick and choose between a a small firm and a large firm and those two also have different uh requirements so sometimes you know if i am going to bring somebody uh a case i'm going to have to evaluate whether or not my small firm is going to be able to do all the

the things that this particular client needs in a case. So that is one set of questions that I would ask myself. And then I would ask myself, if I send this, for example, to a 50% law firm, is the client going to get the service that they're going to need? Because the 50% law firm may charge $750 an hour, or $8.50 an hour. These are all different possibilities.

So it's a. it's a balance of experience versus hourly rate versus size of the firm. I think those three things are the ones that I would look for. Great. So talk a little bit about the difference between a probate administration attorney, which I think is your husband and a probate litigation attorney, which is you, as I understand it. what there are people who meet somebody but they need litigation and they hire maybe one person

firmly does one of those what's somebody what's the difference that you see as the litigator versus really doing administration okay so when you do administration whether it be in trusts or probate you are following just just a set of procedures when you're doing litigation it's dynamic it changes from day to day what you need need to prepare for what motions are going to be coming your way are different in every case. And it may vary 100% in even in one case. So the people who do administration, they deal with just a set of tasks and getting the people through that the process to the end.

people who do the litigation they have to be prepared there's a lot of adrenaline involved in litigation so a lot of sleepless nights so if you have a case that requires you know motions or you know being being able to be able to be prepared for things on the fly that's what litigation involves most people who do administration don't have any of that So oftentimes people call or I'll see on the chat that people say, well, I need a probate attorney and you dig a little deeper and find out, well, I need a probate attorney because there's five siblings and they're all killing each other. They're all shooting each other and stabbing each other with knives. And so they need an attorney to get them through. Well, that's not just an attorney.

That's by definition litigation. If they're fighting legally, that's what litigation really is. At what point do you see it kind of crossing the line of it being on your desk versus maybe your husband's desk? at what point or on the intake of a case, what's the kind of the criteria we say, well, that's a litigation. Everybody hopes their case is easy. Everybody thinks their case is easy when they start, I think, or most people do. But what's your experience on that? When does that cross the line and become litigation? I think we can tell within the first 10 minutes when we speak with somebody, whether or not that case is going to be just administration or if it's going to result in people

fighting with each other. Dynamics of litigation are usually who the parties are. Okay, are there, for example, siblings that have had a history of not getting along? That's one. Are there children from a first marriage and a second wife who have not gotten along? That's always, that's always a clue. Those are, and there's standard types of cases that that, that, in in litigation but children who often are trying to take that in conservatorships children are competing with each other to take care of the parents and sometimes that becomes a battleground but we could tell i mean i just just because we've heard the patterns so many times i think within 10 15 minutes of a call with somebody we can tell what we can expect at least on our end

it must be difficult to be in litigation and not bring a home with you i know you have kids you have a husband, so just speak as a businesswoman. How do you manage your health? I know it's an issue. I'm a member of the, an affiliate member of the bar and I see a lot of classes on, you know, mental health and balance of life and such. You have any particular tips that you give? Because of the same ones for us as real estate agents. Any particular tips on how to manage your mental health and physical health and all that family life as well? Well, as far as family life is concerned, it's become more difficult since, you know, know, many of us work from home now.

So that, you know, it used to be easy. You know, you'd go to the office and then you'd clock out and then you go to the grocery store and buy your groceries for the rest of the day and come and cook. So that was, that used to be my routine. But now it's kind of like it's now, it mixes itself in. So I have to at some point go to the office and then come back to the computer here. And this is my kitchen right here. So it has changed.

One thing that works for me, and I'm not sure if it works for everybody else, is gardening. Gardening really, really suits you. I mean, if you go out in nature and do anything around anything that's great, it really changes the way you look at the world, and it takes down the adrenaline quite a bit. That would be my recommendation. If somebody may do yoga, I do watercoloring, and that, that would be. would be my son who just passed behind me to buy the version of by the way but in in terms of whatever works for you anything that just takes your mind away you garden and you have to water the

plants or flip the plants it you know it helps you kind of get out of your own head so to speak i agree being outside and doing something vigorous i i do a power walk for about an hour every day get sunshine get some fresh air and move around quite a bit and uh definitely helps me keep my sanity. So, Colleen notes, I'm in California. Do we need to research your own state's procedures and processes? I'd say, Colleen, every state has different laws, and then every county has different procedures or rules. And so to extent you want to be an expert in your market area, I would definitely encourage you to learn the state laws as best you can and the local procedures in your county and follow those. You're licensed in California. Do you practice just L.A. County,

California, other counties, any other states? I mainly work in LA County. I can work in all of California. Probate is pretty fungible, but most of my life experience has been here. I've appeared in San Francisco County, San Diego County, Orange County before, but my preference is for L.A. County, mainly because, you know, if you're familiar with the judges, it gives you an advantage in court. Yeah, and I've seen that about you.

I think, again, that's one of those things that you can't put that in your business car to your website that you've practiced before all of or almost all the probate judges, and they know you like you and respect you. But I see that, and I've seen the value of that for you personally as well as, you know, on the cases we're involved with. It's just interesting for me who's listening. I was thinking, you know, as I was preparing for this, I've been both represented your client.

I've also represented the buyer who bought a proper client's where they went to litigation or threat litigation or ever conflict of some sort. So I was on with you. We were kind of against her on the other side. And then you referred me to somebody who's down the road, a past client who I'm working with as well. So I've really seen you from all three angles. I feel like I have a unique perspective of you. I'm not just the happy client. I'm not just the upset party on the other end.

I've actually seen it all the side. So I feel qualified to psychoanalyze you, I think, more than anybody else other than your husband or your kids. If you psychoanalize me, I'm going to say. Okay. So let's get some procedural questions. One of the questions I got asked earlier was the difference. How would you summarize if you're talking, of course, you don't do administration, you do more litigation, but I'm sure at some point you talk to clients, how do you describe the difference between full authority and limited authority?

I understand from the real estate sale, court confirmation or not, but what else is involved in the process that's different between full authority and limited authority? So usually when you have limited authority, it implies that certain types of real estate transactions that you need to do, for example, exchanges, sales, etc. require a court to bless that transaction. And what the difference between the two sometimes are is the level of bond that a person posts. So if I have full authority, it's pretty much a simple transaction because I give what's called a notice of proposed action to the beneficiaries. I, you know, give them some time to let us know if they're going to object or not. And then if they consent or if they don't object, one of the other, then the transaction goes pretty much like a regular sale, very similar to a regular sale.

But if somebody comes and objects, then I have to, I'm required to then take that to the court and say to the court, you know, this person objects, but these are the terms. think it's better for the estate to sell this property, for example, at these defined terms. And then the court can decide whether or not that's really in the best interest of the estate. And that beneficiary who objects gets an opportunity to come to the judge and say, hey, I don't agree with this. I think, you know, they're underselling the property or the terms are no good. Sometimes, you know, beneficiaries have different expectations. But most of these cases are well supported by appraisals by a probate referee who's the courts appraiser.

And then by the marketing efforts of the realtor who is actually selling the property. So it's a mix of where those lines cross. You know, have you done enough marketing? Sometimes a beneficiary may have a point. We'll say, well, you know, you sold this to the first. person who came that was an adequate marketing that wasn't put on the MLS long enough you know those are sometimes issues that come about or sometimes there's a beneficiary that lives in the property and wants to delay that sale as long as they can so what they do is they object

and then we go in front of the judge and that's a couple more months and then sometimes there's another couple more months so that's sometimes how beneficiaries manipulate the situation in whether or not it's limited authority or full authority, that can still happen. But the differences between the two are if people don't object or if they consent, that a full authority case ends up selling much faster and getting closed much faster so people can get their money. Right. And that's why we encourage the attorney to follow the notice of proposed action. away once we have the terms ready to go and then be ready to close right after that because

the longer it sits out there, the more likely somebody comes to the brother and says, hey, they sold it too cheap and gives them more time to object, whereas there's a statutory limit. You have to give them notice. And at that point, they've kind of given up their right if they don't object. So I think speed is really important in those cases. Next question is when it's interesting. So I don't know that you know this, but I do know that you know Paul Horn, who is an attorney in LA County. And I don't know if you know, he teaches a class for the California Association of Realtors to certify agents. I'm not sure what the certification.

It's not required. It's nice to have. And I think he has a good job of explaining the probate process. In that class, he teaches that while you can't sign a binding contract until the letters of authority are issued to the estate, that one can sign a non-binding listing agreement, as long as you disclose to all the parties, that's not binding. So if I had a family member who's filed a petition to be an administrator or executor, he would say you can sign a listing agreement that says, oh, by the way, this isn't binding, this is just more advisory. Once you get the letters, we have to get everything reassigned.

Some companies allow that, some don't. So it varies on your broker and your company policy and such. As an attorney, how would you advise a client who was anxious, they want to get started, they're nervous, maybe there's a foreclosure, they're not paying the mortgage, it's vacant, they've problems with squatters, they want to get it done quickly but you got to get done legally would you would you advise and author approve them or encourage them to do a contract with those disclosures to get the process started or you think that's just too aggressive and you should wait to letters are approved i i don't do it that way everybody you know has their own way and the reason why i don't agree with that is this let's just say that bill uh you came to me and you said um i want to sign

non-binding contract to be a my client who is the hasn't become the administrator yet, doesn't have any authority to bind the estate. So that's one. Number two is, you know, let's just say you sign a contract with somebody who would be administrator. How would either party enforce that contract by its sense non-binding means it's not really a contract? Right. So that and I know realtors often like to help and I know they want to help with the cleanup of the property, etc., etc. But how do you, how do you achieve the result that you want and not have any risk?

As a realtor, let's say you advance the cost of junk removal, okay, before the administrator is appointed. Isn't there something that the administration can, the day after they're appointed, can't they actually change their mind and say, you know what? My next door neighbor said he's going to come and haul everything away. Meanwhile, you've paid a junk removal company. How do you enforce that? It's a non-binding agreement. How do you go about doing that? So, you know, it gets kind of murky.

you know everybody has their own comfort level of advising people my advice is just you know have the relationship with the prospective client in the sense that they will trust you and sign with you as soon as letters are issued and i think that's the i think paul probably is encouraging you to develop that yes for sure yeah he was just he just lained out the process and of course real estate agents here oh, I could get a listing, I'll do it right away. And I think sometimes we have to think through the whole, like you just point out, if you think through the whole process, does that really make sense? And maybe it does in a rare case, but generally speaking, it can be difficult.

It depends on the circumstances. That would think. So when you sign the listing agreement, and I'm assuming that your listing agreement usually requires the person who signs it to be the administrator of the estate of the decedent. Correct. And when they're not appointed yet, when letters have not issued, they don't have that title. Correct. They don't own the property that you're trying to list, right?

Correct. So it could create a lot of problems. It's like you sign an agreement with me to sell my next door neighbor's property. I don't own that property, right? Well, there's another issue with it too also, which is if an agent, does sign the listing agreement and puts in the MLS, which I guess, again, legal, the MLS will allow it as long you disclose to not just on your listing, but to prospective agents. By the way, this listing is a binding. It's pending, you know, letters of authorization. There's nothing to venting a realtor from calling the client directly because technically you don't have a binding contract so they could call the attorney or call the client and say, hey, your listing's not binding. I'll do it for less or I'll do it better. And you kind of put a tariff. maybe on your back if you had the right relationship. I think it creates an ethical issue too, because yeah, the other

the realtors can pick up the phone. You don't represent the administrator. You represent the person as an individual. So isn't there something that I know realtors have these rules of ethics that you're not going to go after somebody else's client, but those are two different capacities. You coming to me to sell my house is different. is different than you coming to sell a house where I'm named as an administrator. Those are.

You know, it's a comp, it's very, it's not simple for sure. And I think, again, he describes legally, could you do that? I guess you could do it. But I think there's complications and risks and something you have to kind of think through. Okay. So just to kind of go back a little bit, Chris for asking a question, what's a usual probate litigation matter? I think the answer is going to be none are usual.

That's the nature of why you do it. They're all a little different. They're all a little wacky and have their own unique twists on it. But you tell me, if somebody said, what's the usual probate litigation matter that you handle, what is the most common? Most common. Most common is an undue influence case. Second most common is a forger case. Oh, well, okay.

Hold on. This is interesting now. There's a lack of capacity case. Oh, I didn't realize. Those are I don't see many of those as an agent. So let's talk about that. So undue influence, let's talk about that. What does that look like?

And how would maybe a realtor notice that and maybe flag that to the family or flag that to an attorney? So an undue influence case is one where someone has, on a repeated basis, try to get someone to take a particular course of action. In wills and trust, it's fairly common, either to sign a will a trust the codicile or an or an amendment um it's on honestly it's a psychological game where people try to be kind to somebody uh and try to get them to take a certain action or they badger them in order to get them to you know take care of something or um they control their food their right to sleep sometimes it's caregivers, sometimes it's family members. 90% are family members. 90% influence, yeah, comes from

relatives. Sometimes they're from girlfriends. It varies from case to case. And so the girlfriend or caregiver or family member who's living in the house with the person who ends up passing at some point brings them a will or a change to their trust. And instead of giving everything equally to five siblings, give everything to my favorite sibling, Joe, who happens to be the caregiver or give everything to my caregiver, Marianne, or my girlfriend, so-and-so. Is that what we're talking about? Sometimes, sometimes a child lives with the parent. Sometimes a child doesn't live with a parent, but is the main caregiver. Right. Comes to parent's house every day. And the parents see that child as sort of their lifeline. And so the child, you know,

know, gets to be in the position of power. I hate to say that, but that's really a truth. Power over the parents so that they can overpower their own judgment, essentially. Right. So there's probably some cases where that's a reasonable transaction, in a sense, right? You're taking care of anything in my life. My other kids abandoned me. You know, I can only live really with your help.

And as a result of that, I want you to have this. I can imagine somebody of full mind might make that decision in certain circumstances. But I think what you're talking about is when it's not the case and they're putting under influence, hey, you need to sign this if you want me to continue. How do you prove that? What does that, what's that look like as a legal matter? Undue influence is a very difficult thing to prove, but there are methods of proving them up.

They are never proven by direct evidence. are always proven by what's called circumstantial evidence, evidence that's surrounding a particular set of facts, not the facts themselves. So it could be that, for example, mom had the beginnings of dementia and was becoming more dependent on child number one, for example, or some of those circumstances. and did the child, for example, accompany them to an attorney's office, did they make the appointment? Did they pay for the appointment? There's a lot of things around the actual change of the document that are more relevant than the actual document themselves.

But they're not easy cases to prove, but they are doable. They go to court often. Sometimes they're combined with lack of capacity. Sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're just straight undue influence. Sometimes they're mixed with elder abuse. Elder abuse often comes in on the side of undue influence where a child was isolating a parent

or the person who benefited from the circumstance, isolate them. Sometimes the isolation is so subtle that you have to kind of put together the facts of, you know, who saw the person. Did anybody see this person or was the person who passed away? Someone who didn't have any friends. Sometimes people who don't have many friends are easier to influence. Of course. And those are indicators that the judges look for. But in California, we have some really terrific. case law that tells a story of undue influence of how these people, you know, influence this person. One was they influenced them in all aspects of their life, trying to get them to sign a promissory note.

If that didn't work, they try to take them on lavish vacations and hopes of getting them to agree to sign something. But those are the things that you'd look for. I mean, and it's hard for realtors to get that. Get that, but you know, if you've seen it a few times, you will know how it works. It's subtle and that's why it's litigation. It's not a filing. It's not a form. It's a process of litigation that you involve with.

The other one that we deal with and come across from time to time, I know, we have about five minutes left here. I'm going to be sensitive to your time and I appreciate your time. I really enjoyed this. One of the things we come across with as well as realtors is diminished capacity, right? At what point is somebody signing something? something that they they don't really even maybe with good intentions they don't really understand what they're signing. Tell me about that is that is that more

common now I would imagine there's more people with memory issues and Alzheimer's and ever before is that is there more litigation in that area as well or how does that get handled? Yes lack of competency is a big issue it's not just specific to wills and trust but it also goes to other contracts contracts for sale and the listing so you have to start when you list a property you want to make sure that the person you're actually signing the contract with knows the consequences of that agreement and could repeat it back to you and communicate it back to you if you have doubts don't do it if you have doubts go to your broker

and say hey i have an issue with this one what do you think i should do um but it's fairly common that a person signs a listing agreement and they don't understand it. I had this case actually go to litigation where a woman who had Alzheimer's disease had signed a real estate agreement. The person who was buying the property from her had essentially tried to undo the influence her by offering to give her $100,000 outside of escrow. He did. He actually paid her $100,000 outside of escrow. And he basically had said, you move out and you've got this 100,000.

When she received the 100,000 but didn't move out, she wasn't there. She wasn't altogether there. And then about a year later, when she couldn't perform, she wasn't able to really carry out the transaction in any way. He sued her. And when my client came, my client was a professional conservator who came in, I was handed a lawsuit that said, go. He's getting a default. So the actual buyer was in the process, had already gotten a default.

And I had to go in and set aside the default, explaining to the court that she was incompetent, essentially. So it did end up settling, but it was a very difficult. go, okay, stressful because, you know, she could have lost everything. Wow. But, but. Well, I mean, one of the first listings, I was so excited. I call a guy on the phone and, you know, just as we practiced it, he agreed everything, agreed to the appointment.

I went out there. I went to the presentation. I was taught to get in and out at the ready to sign, get them to sign. And I got a phone call from a real estate agent who was working with the attorney. He said, you didn't you realize that he was just, you know, overly agreeable? I said, well, now that you mentioned, I mean, I was excited to go out there, and that's my job. But now that you say that, you know, he said, well, you're probably about the eighth or ninth realtor he signed it with.

He just likes talking to people on the phone. He's lonely. And if you after come to his house, he's glad to meet with you. And if he likes you, he'll sign whatever papers you give him. But he hasn't always doing, and there's a litigation going on. And just so you know, that contract's probably not binding, but you can do whatever you want with it. And I ended up walking away from it.

But I learned a lesson, which was slow down and pay attention, because, you know, I wasn't aware, but these issues, I think, are becoming more regular for us as realtors, and we have to make sure that we're on board. What we don't only do is get a listing and then have family members call us and accuse us of elder abuse or taking advantage of their clients. And we have a sense of those questions. You have a question sometimes that we ask our clients is, have you met with many other attorneys before you talk to me today? And that answer actually makes us think more about whether or not we want to take on this case.

Sometimes clients have gone to six attorneys and it didn't work out for whatever reason. And I think realtors could do the same thing. I think you could ask the client, you know, A, have you signed any agreements with any other realtors about its property? and how many realtors have you engaged with respect to this property? That will give you a good frame of mind as to, you know, whether or not, you know, you want to take on that case or whether or not you should that take that case, depending on other circumstances. I know, I know you guys are laughing because you think, you know,

realtor is, you know, when I go to hire realtor, I might meet with five. you know when I go to hire a lawyer I might meet with three or two however but those facts that that come out of that answer lead you to other questions that you may want to consider before you take the case on I think the other thing is networking in your in your case knowing the other attorney is if somebody comes to you and they've talked to somebody else you you kind of know who they are and if they're somebody who's solid that's going to be a big red flag if they describe what sounds like incompetence and it's somebody you notice they don't know what they're doing. I've seen cases where the attorney is older than me and I can

search the probate case files and he hasn't done one in five years. Okay, I'm inclined to listen to the client a little bit more than somebody who, if he calls and says you're the attorney, I'd call you up and see what the problem was and see if I could help somehow. So it's different. Look, we're over time. I just, I could talk to you for hours. I still remember going to lunch with you pre-COVID and you introduced me one of the great restaurants in the valley but I really appreciate our time so much I appreciate the work we've done thanks for having me let's do a quick commercial though someone wants to get hold of you your best place circunlog group.com is that the best way to reach you yes that's the

best place and on the website yeah and they are and there's a phone number there 818-340-4-479 and she's got a crack team I called today. That's the most number to read. Good, okay, good. And you'll notice, I think one of the things I would say, when I go to the attorney's website, and here's a case, perfect one, what do they do? They do probate, if you hit practice areas, they do probate, trust litigation, wills, contests, and salary probate, foreign wills.

Basically, it's all related to this area. This is why she and her husband are experts in this field, and that's, kind of attorney that you want to work with with the administration, you'll kind of get pushed to her husband, Evan, and if it's a trust litigation, unfortunately, but the good news is you'll work with Mina. Mina, thank you so much for time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me. Appreciate it. And for the rest of you, you got some thank you. For the rest of you, this is probate weekly. We do it every Thursday, 4 p.m. Pacific, 7 p.m. Eastern. We do it. We live stream as well to YouTube and Facebook. We had a ton of questions today

that I couldn't get to because I got caught up. I tried to answer some of them as we went through with her and and rephrase some of them.