KGCI: Real Estate on Air - Probate & Trusts with Attorney Paul Horn

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

probate expert, though today I'm not, I'm the second most expert in LA County in probate on this call. Ask questions. We'll ask you turn on your camera and turn off the mute and make it real and live to learn in a better environment. We're here to all make more money and build more wealth by improving our probate businesses as agents, realtors, investors, wholesalers, or just to learn about the business vendors as well. And I'm really honored. I try to bring in guests to help teach along the way, give us different. perspectives but today we have somebody who's not just a master probate attorney i often say i think

most prolific um probate attorney in los angeles county by number of cases as well as not just an educator but uh the approved uh teacher instructor for the california association realtors certification course c a r um mr paul horn pa thank you so much to joining us today hey bill is my honor thank you bill for having me always glad to talk to you well thanks so let's just just start from the top. I know I've known you for quite a while, but a lot of people on the call maybe haven't. Tell us a little about your background personally. Where did you grow up? And then how did you end up in law as a business or as a practice? Yeah, I grew up in Southern California. I came to the U.S. when I was about, oh, I think 12 or 13 years old. Yeah, I became a CPA first.

And then after that, I went to law school, became an attorney. And I became an attorney in 2006 and got into probate, living trust. And this is all I do is probate and trust. Which, and I say on my call regularly that when we refer cases to somebody, to an attorney or refer clients to somebody, it's really important to have a specialist who specializes in probate and or avoiding probate, which would be trusts or estate planning. But it's just enough to keep you busy. So how did you end up, Paul, in the specialization of probate and estate planning?

Yeah, you know, so very quickly I figure out that I didn't want to spread my brain a little bit to a criminal law, a little bit towards immigration, a little bit, it's just too much. You know, so when you focus on one thing, it just makes you better. And yeah, and I think estate planning probate, I think, is a terrific, it's a terrific part of the law practice. It applies to everybody. You don't need to know about estate planning or trust if you're not going to die. So some of you on the webinar are not going to die.

You can tune me out. But for the rest of you, join us, the immortal. We're all going to die. So when you die, who gets your house? How does your son, your daughter sells this house? How do you do it? Yeah. So that kind of stuff, it's really I dedicate my, you know, professional career to it.

And in addition to that, I should say maybe, a unique angle or twist or part of it for you is you've also been involved with educating real estate agents for a long time how did you decide to do that you know as i mentioned you are the approved instructor for cair and i know you you regularly give talks to various associations of realtors including tomorrow and i'll i'll post that here at the end of our talk but how did you come up with the idea of speaking from a realtor associations and i think also offices i think you came to an office I was at a long time ago. Yeah, you know, you'll be amazed at how many real estate professionals don't know how to deal with

selling a home that where the owner pass away. It's quite amazing. And if you are in the real estate realm, you should have that in your tool bag. because I think one of the most lucrative deal that you get into is possibly a homeowner pass away is in a trust or whatever and maybe it's a good deal. You know, the house is dilapidated. Maybe there's a built-in premium for you to buy it. You can fix it up, flip whatever it is.

So it's, yeah, it's invaluable, you know, and so I was kind of surprised, wow, you know, this knowledge needs to be it needs to get out there and even if you're not interested in flipping houses or doing probate professionally you know going after probate leads what about your own house you know when you die how does it get passed on to your son or daughter you know do you say i'm not going to worry about it now when i die then i figure it up when i die when you die it's too late, you know. Well, and as a lot of people, as a lot of people learned before they die, it might be too late given the circumstances, right? There's a lot of people in COVID who got incapacitated and that might be too late. You know, and right now we're talking at a business

level, but also estate planning has a very real life experience to it because imagine, let's say, let's say Bill as an example. Let's say you you remarry, you have a couple of children from your past relationship, you remarried to a wonderful new woman, you pass away, now she takes over, she takes everything. And so there's a lot of intricate, heartbreaking situation that happens, you know, in this realm. So if we all sort of understand that, hey, none of us are getting out of this alive, you know. And when that day come, have you sort of lay out your path, who's going to get what, and how are we going to protect everybody, you know, all the children.

So it's, yeah, it's a phenomenal feel to get into it. It's only more homeowner are going to die because baby boomers, right? I don't know about you, but those people still die. You know, and it's right, Bill, it's only going to increase. I mean, it's unfortunate. You know, I'm a little older than you. And so I have to say it seems like every day somebody is sick and somebody's dying and that I know. And it's just more and more frequent.

And I thank God today, it's not me. But you're right. It's more and more. And I think the population as it grows, it gets older, more people pass. My wife just asked me, gee, with the real estate market changing, how does it affect probate? And I said, if it really is not, they're going to have to sell their houses, people are still going to die. There might be more realtors getting into probate real estate.

There might be more attorneys getting into probate or estate planning as a legal field rather than some other things, rather than cryptocurrency maybe. But it's going to definitely continue. So let's talk about probate a bit. You really kind of do both parts. You do probate administration, which is filing and kind of an ordinary processing of the paper. can you also handle. Bill Bill, Bill. Just pause one second. Your wife, a very wise woman. Yes. She's right. In a declining market, you know, you, and if it's a probate, you have to figure out, is there enough equity in there to be worth your time? Right. So they owe 550 on it.

Right. And currently the house is worth, you know, 570. Well, in a declining market, you're going to be looking at a short sale. Maybe. So she's right. You know, so all of you out there, if you are right now where there's only 20 grand equity, well, that 20 grand equity, chances are, is not going to become 100, like before, like two years ago, you know, so watch out for those situations where, hey, if you are, if it's only 20 grand equity, that 20 grand more than likely it's going to become zero because as interest rate is increasing

sure looming recession coming you may end up in a short south situation so be mindful that have that built into your contingency sorry bill no the only thing you should apologize for is that my wife was to hear this but fortunately she doesn't watch my show and please nobody in the call tell that my wife that Paul Horn said he was right that she was right and I was wrong please don't get me in trouble just kidding you're absolutely right that this is an area where to watch now you were in probate administration back in 2008 9 to 10 when there were short cells and so you know that's an interesting place to navigate because the equity limitation limits perhaps or puts pressure on the

attorneys fees puts pressure on the commissions put pressure on the deal did you see short sales being done in probate court where there was a nominal amount of money for their families or did you find those too hard to do when you pass i know some were done and i also know the judges hated them because there's a lot of work for very little money for the state yeah so i have done a number of probate short sale okay so in a probate short sale you must get full authority yeah so if you if you have a deal on the table it's going to be a short sale you're sale or you have a deal where there's not too much accurate in it, you must demand that it be full authority. If you don't have full authority, your short cell is not going to go through.

Yeah. And so having said that, when you are doing a probate short sale, you have to make sure that, hey, mom die, there are three children. Make sure that all three of them understand. that this is a short sale and in a short sale the word short really means short you know so the money's going to be short there's nothing going to you it's going to be short maybe the investor who's buying this can say you know what I'm going to be a good guy I'm going to step up I'm going to cover the court filing fees and you know what because I'm a seasoned and investor, maybe I'm going to do this and this. I think I can cover myself. I may give you five grand each, for example, where it makes and pay the attorney's fee. So that this way, the judge can go,

yeah, well, there's some value to this, you know, it would have been lost in foreclosure, except for this season of thus who's picking it up, who knows how maybe this, this investor has done investing for so long. Maybe this, maybe the investor instead of spending $150,000, and fixing it up maybe he's able to do it for 90 because he just thought much more better than yeah yeah you know in every single field there's always 80 the 80 20 rule right you're gonna have 20 of the best out there who you know who makes they're good at it you know so so yeah um if you can structure in such a way where where the judge goes yeah it's going to go out some foreclosure yeah the investor is doing this and an investor is squeezing

you know, actually some juice out of this rock, you know. And so, okay, you know, and so it makes it kind of on up and up. Right. So Tara asked, what's the advantage of a short sale versus foreclosure? And I think Paul answered that, which is, in a short sale, at least the state will end up with some money, $5,000, $10,000. There has to be enough in there for them to, you know, to be worth their time. And also the judge has to see that you're have a tough time getting it through, I think, without that.

So yeah, who asked that question? Tara was her name, I think. Yeah, Tara, yeah. So she's asking what is the advantage and the short-seller's foreclosure, right? Correct. Okay, Tara, you know that the neighborhood so well, Tara. You could do a great thing with that house, you know. Tara, you know, you happens to, because that if a closure, it's going to be up for

auction. You know, it's got auction, the highest bidder gets it. It's, so for probate short sale terror, you love that house. You might pay a little more for it, get the children something, you're going to keep that house long term because it's in a great area, Tara. You know, so, so there's different factor involved, you know, and maybe this particular house means more to you as investor terror than 99 other invest out there. Paul, you said something that's so true that, you know, the 80-20 rule, though I would say it's

more of a 95-5 rule with real estate agents. Half the realtors in the MLS haven't closed anything in a year, let alone a probate. And so you're really talking about 5% who've even done one. I think that's so much with attorneys. When I run the data in Illinois County, 95% of the cases are attorneys who've done one or more in the last 12 months. And maybe 5% to 10% have done at least one or more in the last 12 months. Is that your experience? And I don't want you to, I know you don't want to disparage your colleagues. But the truth is there are attorneys who, like you, this is what they do.

And there's other attorneys who do an occasional probate and may not know what they're doing. Listen, I don't need to discourage any attorney. All I need to ask you is, are every realtor, or every single realtor, with the same capability, you're going to say no, right? There are some relatives that are just flat out better than the other realtor. And that one realtor is part of the 80-20 rule where that 20% makes 80% of the money.

Of course, there's a lot of attorney that does, and Bill is absolutely correct. And Bill, guy, he really knows probate. He really tracks all the data. And yeah, you know, for an attorney that does one probate, year you know you can be sure that that attorney is not going to be up to par to move your transaction as opposed to someone you know who who do a lot of them you know like you're very modest like you paul and i'll tell you haven't been in court um you know two things i noticed about you one is

you were always in both back pre-covid when you had to go to court you'd be in several departments the same day and then the judges accommodate attorneys by letting you go first or last to to try to juggle everybody. And they all knew who you were. So I think, you know, it's obvious after a while that I got dizzy watching a court as you were there. And, you know, you know, you do have home court advantages when a judge knows you. Because the judge knows that, hey, whatever minor issue that appears, Paul Horn's going to fix it.

Because if we don't grant Paul Horan's position now, he's just going to come back and fix it. So why waste everybody's time? You know, so you do have some home court advantages. when the judge has seen your name so many times. And they trust you. They know they can trust you and say, there's a question, was this cleared, was it not cleared? And then you'll say, well, we'll make sure they get told.

And the judge will often say, fine, I'll take you at your word. So it's really important. So just an example, a case that I'm handling right now where another attorney filed this case, mom died, mom has three children. And this attorney who filed this. case only list one children as the heir the other mom has three children um only one living the other two who die has children so you're supposed to list the other two who

pass away when they pass away and all their children and this lawyer only listed the son that's alive in experience like you're saying though they don't know what they're doing right the other thing i would say you i've i've i I know there's law. I mean, there's certain laws like on a limited authority case, the sale can't be less than 90% of the public referee's report. But I've also seen judges agree to less when they're compelling circumstances. I mean, they have some discretion to bend the law a little bit.

Some judges do, some judges don't. And that's the experience that you bring, as you kind of know those areas that you can work for your client that are legal and ethical, but outside. of the book part of it right and that's where people are paying for is that expertise when there's a problem okay couple hands up douglas welcome to our call i see your hand up let me get you on muted and um let's get you on the call how you doing Douglas lee a little high candy for later thanks a lot i just want it i got started because of paulhorn i bought his kit it paid i got

nothing but good things to say he also does litigation a lot of uh probate attorney He don't do both in litigation, but he does. A question for you, Paul. So when I'm working on a lot of these multiple cases, sometimes there's always like a new probate attorney, right? It's kind of like real estate agents. Is there a way that I can check to see how much probate experience? Because I imagine that a lot of the probate attorneys that claim to do probate, they're like

real estate agents. They claim to do probate, but they haven't really done that many probate transactions. So because a lot of times I find because of your training, like, I know the answer is better than the probate attorney. Yeah. I don't know if there's some way that I can check like, hey, here's how many probate cases they've worked on. Like for us, you could just check MLS, see what those listings, how many of them were probate, and then you could just count for the real estate agents. So Paul's modest.

Let me turn. I didn't know if that was it. Let me answer for Paul. I subscribe to probate money, which is a product that Paul has created here in Los Angeles County. and I'll go in and search under the attorney of the last name. I looked it up all the time. Paul, how do you, your attorney, you must have a similar service that you use as attorney.

Yeah, yeah. So first of all, guys, Douglas, Douglas is the real deal. He works hard. He's, when he says it's going to do something, he's going to do it. So that goes, awesome. So the first thing you ought to do, guys, when you check up on attorney, go to that website.

When you go to a website and when you go to a website, and you go to a website and if they list criminal law, harsion injury cases, divorces, forget it, forget it. Right. They don't know probate. When you go to the website, it just should say only estate planning. Estate plan is comprised of living trust and probate.

That's it. You know, you're not gonna, you know, You know, so this is a good example where all you see is estate planning, probate, living trust. That's it. Nothing else. Right. Forget it. Right off the bat, probably, probably not, you know, that's, that's one thing. Go back to my website real fast bill.

The second thing is. I have another question, but I'll wait. I'll wait. Yeah, scroll around to the bottom bill where it says the, I'm sorry, back up just a tiny bit. Okay, stop. Do you see that bear right there, that bear? That bear right there is the state bar of California

certifying lawyer who specialize in probate law. law. I didn't know that. I know that logo for I know there's that is the bragging right. That is the bragging right. Only lawyer who's been certified by the state bar has the right to use that logo. So that logo is another added layer that hey, this guy has took an extra exam and has been vouched by his peers that he really specialized in this type of law. Second of all, does he have that little bear, that little logo? That little logo is breaking right, given out by the State Bar of California that has certified that lawyer specialized in probate law. One question.

Oh, go ahead. That's right. So what you do then, Bill, is that you go into probate money, you type in that attorney's name and it'll show how many times they say, ooh, that's smart. Okay, that's a good one too. Yeah. So my question, follow-up question to what you just said, Paul, is so like, let's suppose that I'm chatting. There's an attorney there. They're not really that good. I can tell just by their knowledge and what they're telling the client. But the thing is that if I wanted to introduce them to you, I guess my question is that I heard rules that like for attorneys, it's a little tougher because once they've signed an agreement, then they're pretty much locked in. And so there's no way they could kind of like an attorney couldn't then consult to help them out or whatever. But I mean, what's an agent like me that I'm like if I'm thinking bluntly, dude, this probate attorney sucks. I want to connect them with my my attorney, Paul Horn, who I know will get the job done.

How do I do that in a way that's professional without stepping on toes and without doing something to break any legal? because I know lawyers have their own set of rules. Got it. Hey, hey, Bill, give me access to, I'm going to answer that good question. All right. There you go. So do you all see my Excel spreadsheet up here? Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. The easiest way, one way you can do it is this. Any cases that are limited authority and for those who are new, In probate, there's only two types of authority, limited authority and full authority. Okay? Right. Limited authority and full authority, the payments, the statutory fee are the same. So let's say, let's say if the house is going to be sold for 500 grand, let's say it's going to be sold for 500 grand.

The attorney's fee are set fee. So for example, it's going to be 4%. it's going to be 4% multiply that by the first 100,000 is 4 grand, okay? And it's going to be 3% multiply that by the next 100 grand. And because the house being sold for 500,000, it's going to be 2% of the remaining 300 grand to bring us up to 500,000. So the fee, the attorney's fee, this 500,000 house is going to be 13,000, whether it's full authority or limited authority. But because it's limited authority, it has to go for court confirmation.

So court confirmation, there has to be, it has to be in a newspaper. And a newspaper might cost 800 bucks, depending on which city you're in. When you go and sell this house, the lawyer has to do court confirmation, which is another court filing fee of 465. That lawyer, no one is going to charge on top of this, on top of the 13 grand, probably another 4,500. Okay. So now, so now this particular probate, limited authority, it's going to cost 18,000. Okay. Now, now, I'm getting some up with this. So for you, Douglas, the easiest way, if you find a limited authority, you can switch it to full authority. Let's say, for example, if they were, if they were come to me, I can switch from limited to full,

limited to full authority, okay? The fee are going to stay the same. The fee is still going to be the 13. The fee is still going to be these charges, okay? And the fee are the same. The fee are going to be the same. The fee are going to be the same. This 18,000 gets split between me and that lawyer.

Now, Douglas, why is this beneficial for the client to switch it from limited to full? Well, you know the answer already. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Because because what limited authority, it takes longer. to sell the house and declining market, good luck with that. Second of all, there isn't that many seller. I mean, that many buyer, when there's not a lot of buy, it declines the price.

So switch switching attorney, go to law that gives you full authority. The portal cost is the same. He's going to give away some of that 18 grand to that first lawyer. But the seller is got to maybe net another 40, 50 grand more bill because it's full authority. Okay, so that's a good, when you find limited authority case, this is a good segment to watch right here. The cost is the same. The new lawyer was split that 18 grand with the new lawyer. So the cost can be the same, except your seller is going to net more because it's full authority.

When there's full authority, there are more buyer. Why more buyer? Because there's less obstacle, right? Less hoops to jump through to get this. this house. Bill, you got anything to add to this? No, I mean, no, I think you, I think he had on the head.

It's not necessarily the fees are that dramatic, but it's just months and months of delays. For example, I have one right now where we got delayed last month because the probate referees report wasn't done right for the last hearing. And here it is a month later, and it's still not done right. The hearing is next week in the probate referee is saying, oh, it's no big deal, but my attorney needs to supplement it. The probate attorney has to review. So it'll end up dealing two months for a probate referee, which is just a drive-by appraisal in the rest of the real estate world.

That's nothing. But in real estate, in probate, it added at least two months to the cell process because there's a limited authority. Yeah, and a decline. Dangerous in this time. Yeah, and a declining market, you're right. It's a dangerous market you're in, you know, when who the heck know, right? And I don't know, September, the Fed's going to increase another 50 basis point. I don't know, you know, they're talking about it.

So, so, so, so, so, so Douglas, that's, ABC limited authority. I think that's a solid, it's solid because it's the truth. They don't have to go to just go to another lawyer and get full authority because it might benefit. that seller at the end. So if the client, if the petitioner or the executor has signed a retainer with an existing lawyer and it's a limited authority, I can actually introduce them if I, you know, to another attorney like you and then there may be a way for you to get in there. Or if that attorney only does the program.

but they don't do litigation, then there is a way that I could just introduce them to you. Right? Yeah. You know, so seller, you're currently as limited authority. I don't know how you got to be limited authority, but listen, limited authority. The buyer's got to put 10% down. It's got to publish in the newspaper. You got to wait for the probor of your value in this house.

The buyer putting 10% down clear all contingency just to go to court. to court and someone I might steal this house away from that, accept that offer, put yourself in the buyer's position, Mr. PR, Mr. Seller, Mr. Personal Representative, would you like it? You're not going to like it. If you're not going to like it, other buyer in the market is not going to like it either. Therefore, if we can switch you to full authority where your legal fee are going to be the same. Because why, because the new lawyer can split his fee, his statutory fee, with the prior attorney? Well, I have often seen attorneys who don't do probate, this specialty, they're concerned so they feel it's safer to have limited authority.

The court will confirm the sale so they can't be sued. They can't be judged. But they're not doing their job. They're hurting their client, costing a lot of money and waste of time. That's the reason why, you know, right away. when they say well they like my attorney suggested it'd be safer but it's not safer you're not doing your job so bill so bill made a good point it's safer for who safe for their attorney it covers his right behind yeah don't hold up paulhorn's cases man do not stand in the way of paulhorn's probate cases he's got

right over Douglas thank you so much man thanks for coming east yeah thanks Okay, John, I see John's hand up patiently waiting. John, what's going on? How can we help you? Hi guys. Nice to meet you all. Nice to meet you Paul. Hi, Bill.

Hey. So to get started with probate, because this is new to me, I need to contact the state attorneys that have full authority. Is that correct? Yeah, so to get started with probate, I would say get educated on the probate process, you know. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But once you make the contact, if you don't know what you're doing, you don't different than full authority, you don't know how the program process starts, you don't

know how long it takes, you don't know when you can take the listing, you know, you know, I would learn first, learn probate first, and then you can talk on the marketing next, then you can call Bill and talk about your bill, you know, I understand the pro pro process now. You know, Bill, help me out, you know, what's the next move? So I would do that first. Learn this stuff first. Yeah.

John, where do you sell real estate? Los Angeles County. West side of LA, we do, we have an escrow closing today. We have another, we do a lot of referrals, expires, cancels, FISBOs, all that in the ladder. I'm just always, you know, with EXP, with real estate, there's always something new to learn. And I know that this is, you know, probate is not something that I know. So I'm just trying to, you know, expand my horizons here. Yeah. Great. See. Okay. So, so, so, so you talked about probate. But the question should be

when a homeowner pass away, the son of daughter comes to see you. What's the first thing you're going to do, John? See if they have a, if they have a trust or not? Yeah, exactly. And don't know what you know how to do. And don't know what you can tell her if you can pull the grandee. So you pull the grandee, the house is in the trust. There's no probate. What's the next step you're going to do, John? You pull the family, the houses in the trust, what's the next step you're going to do?

Mom die with four children. What's the next step you're going to do to get the listing? Not that in the state attorney, correct? No, you just ask for a copy of the trust to see who is the successor trustee. then you let that successive trustees sign your listening agreement voila there's your commission we talk about probate but but but there's a whole side of this trust that you need to learn as well when the homeowner died unless you can go to heaven to have him sign a grand deed to the you better know what to do right yeah you better know the process you know just yeah so don't

just get stuck on probate because that's a ton of people that die that die would a trust. What do you do when they die with a trust? Right? So it's a more holistic. Hey, how to help homeowner who pass away, the errors, the children. Think of the state plan also like a safe. And sometimes they, oh, yeah, there is a safe in the closet. Oh, yeah, we have a state plan. Well, great. Let's look inside the safe and see what's there. Let's look inside the trust and see what's there. It's written in English. And usually you can help them figure out who they may or not know who the successor trustee is and you can help yeah yeah john you're your let's say you know one of your client mom and dad passed away they come to see you you know you pull the grand

deep imagine in that conversation when you meet for the son and daughter how knowledgeable would you be to say hey bring the trust go look for the trust you flip through the trust you find oh sister mary is a success trustee wouldn't you be wouldn't you look so professionally say hey this is the all on the trust the house is the trust the trust shows that mary the daughter is a successor trustee she has the power to sign the agreement sell the house and divide everything by four wow john you are an expert you are half this listing right yeah the expert's just somebody who knows one more step than they do so if you're the xp i run the probate group in the xp we have We have 1,200 members.

I post a lot of good free content there. Come to this call every week. This is free as well. And I have a Facebook group for anybody who's not with the XP, probate experts in Facebook and come there as well for free. And I post a lot of material there as well. Okay, John, nice meeting you. You too, man.

Okay, Matt, love, you've had your hand up. Let's get you, can we get your camera on maybe? Matt, if not, you got a question for us? We've got to get you unmuted out. There you go. So my question is I've heard that a lot of folks are little just turned off from non-agent folks getting involved in probate, just looking at YouTube videos and that there's like a stigma because I'm not a real estate agent. I'm pursuing the wholesale route. And pursuing that route, what do you think is the best way to go about it?

Do you let them know out the gate that you're not an agent? So your question is how do you approach a owner of a house or the era of a house where there's a pro? and you're doing that as a wholesaler. So I actually wrote, I actually posted today, I'll put the chat box a video on the subject, Can You Wholesale Properties and Probate? So I'll put that in the chat box. Paul, what have, can you share with us your experience with wholesalers? What's that like?

And I know there's some good and bad like there was everything else. What's your experience with people looking to wholesale properties in probate? So look, at the end of the day, the son or daughter, they just want to get the most for their profit. You know? And for example, given equal value, let's say the realtor is going to sell up for 500,000. And if you, if you're buying it, because if you sell 500,000, you have to pay 6% commission. You know, maybe you offer something where you buy shirt up without no commission.

That's added value. You know, yeah. So I mean, it's at the day, you know, if you're doing good toward the standard order, you're sincere, you get the best value, you know, that's a good deal is a good deal. It's not going to change. Gotcha. Okay. That's that's right around. I was looking for it because they say the advantage is that the wholesaler isn't looking for a listing fee. They incorporate their fees in the actual sale with the buyer. I'm still learning this stuff, but I'm very much committed to learning it at this point like I shared earlier. I met Bill in person and he said something that clicked a little bit later, but it clicked. So anyway, so I'm ready to like just pursue this and whatever I do with my learning curve.

So that's my little background on that. Great, man. Well, thanks. Glad to have you here. Glad to have you on board. You need to find who the successor trustee is. If there's a trust, same thing. If you find the property, then you discover there's a trust.

You can go to the homeowner and they may not know. Oh, by the way, it shows him a trust. And then they'll find out who the successor trustee is. and then you can talk about wholesale enough from there. So that's some great advice as well, okay? Awesome. Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Okay.

So I think we're up to date with all the people who raised hands in the call, which I tell you give priority to you on the call. In YouTube, a question we got from Vince, does Paul have any problem with a fiduciary who's also an agent purchasing a client's real estate? Can this be seen as a breach of the agent's responsibility? So fiduciary, just for those who don't know, that, you know, when somebody passes, there's various parties. You have a petitioner who could be an error or not, and they're filing to be the administrator or the executor.

Sometimes that person doesn't want to handle the probate themselves, so they have somebody act on their behalf, which is a fiduciary. It could be an attorney or can be a professional fiduciary who is not an attorney. So, Paul, is your, so the question is, how do you feel about fiduciaries? And I guess also, how do you feel about petitioners buying the property? There's multiple errors. Do you see that as a breach of the responsibility? Okay. So if the personal representative is buying the house, the personal representative have to get an okay from the court,

because it is a conflict of interest. I'm so sorry. What is a general name that asked the question? Vince. Vince. Imagine this Vince. Your uncle passed away. Your uncle has no children, no wife.

And you, and let's say you and three other brothers are the heirs, just by being nieces and nephew. Vince, Vince, right? Vince, you are the personal representative and you're going to buy the house. That's fine, Vince. Vince, your name should be Jesus. Because you're so honest. And so the court, you know, the judge. must say, file petition, give notice to all your brothers and sisters that you're buying the house,

and so that no one object, so that the, so it can cleanse you of any appearances of conflict of interest. In Matt says in North Carolina, you have a thing called a petition to partition. If they dispute it, they can ask the judge to force the sale. So I'm not an attorney, I'm not giving legal advice, but, but in my experience, We also have partition actions and that if a party owns half or more, they can force the sale. And it's a process to go through, but eventually they're probably going to win. Paul, do you get involved with partition actions when there's, let's say, two errors, one wants to sell and one dozen? Or do you refer out to another attorney to do the partition portion? Yeah, I don't.

Yeah, I don't get involved in partition. And yeah, so let's say if there's two owners and one owner want to sell, you go to court, and the judge will force the other owner to sell, it's called a partition, okay? And basically a real estate attorney would handle that. And the reason why the judge will grant it is because, you know, the law does not encourage landlock, right? So if you own 50-50 and you want to sell,

the judge is going to allow that property to be sold, you know, versus being a landlock. So, yeah, so, you know, I don't know what Georgia law is, But that's the concept behind a partition. I own 50%, you own 50, I don't want to sell, you want to sell, the court will take over. The court will allow to be sold. I don't know Georgia law, but that's the idea of my partition.

And again, I think Paul's being modest, but I can tell you that he is who he is because he doesn't handle partitions, he handles probate. And he refers that out. And I recently, I actually have a case that was probate resulting in two parties 50-50 partition action that probate attorney referred to an attorney to handle the partition action likewise like Paul a significant probate litigator but they don't do partitions it's a different

court department it doesn't really benefit their probate practice and so that's the kind of attorney ultimately you'd like to work with if we can Ryan asked a proper question going back to the issue of foreclosure versus short sale If there's foreclosure and a shortage, money due, which isn't so common in California, but theoretically possible, can the bank attach other properties? If there's multiple property in the estate or there's bank accounts in the estate and there's deficiency, can a bank, if there's deficiency judgment, which is not true on most mortgages, but theoretically could be true, can they attach the estate for the differences? That's a pretty, that's a pretty deep question. Okay. And I'm a law school question. Yeah, let's let's let's let's let's deal with that. So, so first of all, let's say you lost a house and foreclosure and you're still alive. You're still alive, right? You lost our foreclosure, you're still alive.

And so it's going to depend on, you know, recourse, non-recourse, right? If it's a rental property, it's not your primary. I think California law, there's going to be recourse to it. If it's a rental property, and they can seek judgment from you, this is when you're alive, right? We have to separate the two world. I'm explaining the law to you. If you're alive, if it's a rental property, there may be deficiency, allow in a

rent the property versus primary if you're alive. Now if you're dead, if you're dead, and let's say it is a rental property and let's say it is foreclosed upon. Let's say there's efficiency deficiency. How is that lender going to go to heaven because you're dead? How is you going to go to heaven to find you to give you a judgment? That lender's going to have to sue you. It's going to have to open up a probate because you're dead. The only way when they can sue you is open up the probate. Okay? And so chances are, you know, if it was a rental property, foreclosure, you're dead. Chances are that it's probably going to end there. You know.

Now, if you do have other property, the air is not to open up a probate to get the rest of the property. You know, and, and so maybe that is a situation where, a short sale is could be given some consideration just to avoid any you know just to close and shut the door and any deficiency going after the other property so next question this is a deep question I know you could probably speak for hours on this one and I always tell people I think you are the best teacher of the law and the probate process I don't think your specialty is how to get business as a realtor from attorneys, but you obviously have experience on that.

The question is, what's the best way to develop a relationship with a probate attorney if you're a real estate agent? I've sent them letters, but no response. So I'm curious, Paul, how many unsolicited mailings do you get a day or a week in your office from real estate agents looking to talk to you about listing on property that you're involved with? Yeah, yeah, I do get a fair share, you know. And I think, you know, I think it's no different than any other business. You know, you got to put yourself out there, bring value to the table, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, like for example, I got to be where I am because I did. So, you know, it's not easy. There is no Bible written on how do you. you get through the front interest door our probate attorney. You know, number one is learn the probate process, learn it well. What do you do when a homeowner die out of trust? When there's no trust, I would start with that first. And then after that, you know, talk to Bill.

After that, put on your marketing think cap, you know, after that, pretend you're the probate attorney, you know, why would he or she, why will you talk to a relative? you know reverse the hat around yeah i think that's a good point i think you have to think about what value do you bring uh when's referrals obviously if you're referring clients to an attorney they're going to do business with you if you're and the same attorney does estate planning and i teach every realtor the number one thing you should start with is make sure all your clients have an estate plan if they own a property they all should have an estate plan if they have kids i

thing and refer them to services that you know like and trust and then those people will hopefully refer business back to you because now they know like and trust you you create business for them so paul here he's talking about he also does estate planning and so if i was you know uh looking for paul's business i would make sure that i had you know estate planning clients that would call him and do business with them and then i remind me by the way paul i sent you a couple clients just let you know And we'll do business with me. That's really business has to be, you know, for value for everybody. And so, but it starts, as you said, and this is the step people.

You just want to skip. It starts with knowing the business. No attorney wants to refer business to real business to do. Yeah. And maybe this is a good segment into, there's a service out there that all they do is collect data of deceased homeowners that owns real estate. It's a service out there. I think it's called foreclosure or something.

Daily. Daily. What they do is they specialize in getting the record of people who die that owns real estate. All of you should start there. Contact that company. they're going to give you a list of people who die that owns real estate. So perhaps you get the names and you do your research to see which property they own.

If they own property, the next step you do, you do an air search, hunt. You do an air search. It's very easy. You do an air search to find out John Smith passed away. John Smith owns one property, owns one property, two property, your property. The air search is going to show you all of John Smith, sons and daughters, and so forth. Okay. Contact those people. Because when you contact John's heir, whether, if it's in a trust, great right there, right? You don't need probate. You can buy the house, start the listing right

away. If it's in a probate, then that's a very organic leap. You mean, that's why you even one step before even the probate attorney gets it. Okay, so that's a good way to do it too. You know, for example, if you, perhaps when you do have someone, you know, yeah, when you find a good lead, you know, we can talk about it. If it's, if it's in the trust, I'll walk you through, get the listing. I don't make your money. I don't care.

But if it isn't a probate, I'll do the legal work for you in the probate. You get the listing. Okay. So I think start with that, foreclosuredaily.com, tell them which county you want. You're going to get, I think the data comes out like every week, every two weeks, okay? Decease homeowners that owns real estate.

I put a link in a chat box on my website. I have a list of data sources, including probate money. But one of them is foreclosures daily. It's on there. And I have a coupon code. If you go to them and use it done by a good friend of mine, Kevin Sales. There you go.

Yeah. Kevin Sale, if you listen to this, hello, he's a great guy, honest guy, great title rep. So this for closure daily, you know, this, it's called pre-probe. You know, you might have less competition because once they get into the probate database, there's a lot of competition, you know. But if you are going to pre-probate route, you know, it's diamond in the rough. there before it hits, I guess it's like finding, you know, an off-listing house, I guess, and in your legal jargon.

Yeah. It's off-the-market listing, I guess, you know. Yeah, yeah. And again, they're going to look for your help not just on the house, but on the attorney's fees and the attorney's guidance and the resolution of any conflicts with the parties. So definitely worthwhile. Yeah. And that list is invaluable to investor because if the house is in a trust, it doesn't go into probate because it does not go into probate, how much you buy the house for is none of the court's business.

It's just purely you and it's excessive trustee. Wonderful. Yeah. Beautiful. That's what we want. Learning from you, your classes, you have a class tomorrow. as I mentioned, but I just want to thank you for being, you know, so personally involved with us and sharing. The Island Pirates, the Inland Valley Association of Realtors is a great resource.

If you want Paul Horne's law firm, you go to Paul, and so if you have clients who are looking for estate planning to avoid probate or probate services is a great source there. And then lastly, we don't want to get to talk about much, but Paul has a great class. he is the official teacher or the official program for certification by the California Association of Realtors Learnprobate.com slash CER, and there you'll get a certification that will, I don't know necessarily that the ticket will get you in the door with attorneys, but sometimes I'll ask you're certified, and if you learn the material and Paul covers that material that at least you're at the level. So Paul, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate your help as always. Hey Bill, great time. Thank you for having me on and all of you out there. Thank you so much for

being with us. God bless. Take care guys. Thank you. Thank you. And for the rest of you, thank you. And for the rest of you, this is, if you're with EXP, check out the probate group in the XP workplace. If you're not with the XP, check out the probate experts in Facebook group. It's free. And we get together posts. We've had petitioners looking for leads there. So go ahead and take a look at that as well. If I can help it all. Thank you so much everybody. Have a great week, as always, and we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye, guys.