KGCI: Real Estate on Air - The Probate Advantage: How to Build Your Business with a Niche

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

Summary:Andre Desir provides an in-depth look at the probate niche in real estate. He discusses the unique opportunities and challenges of working with clients in this specific market. The episode provides clear, actionable advice on how to get started in probate, including strategies for finding leads, building trust with families, and navigating the legal processes. Desir emphasizes the importance of empathy and becoming a trusted resource, positioning this niche as a powerful way to build a sustainable and rewarding business.

Welcome to Probate Weekly. I'm Bill Gross, and this is our weekly, probate weekly episode. We get together every minute. It's a new time, Thursday at 9 a.m. Pacific, which is 12 noon, Eastern Time. Now, we do record it, and we'll put it on YouTube, like LinkedIn, Facebook, and such. But we've moved the time slot to get more participants to come in alive using the Zoom format, which I think is more common for people come in and ask questions. Really, and the reason we move this is really you took a back to the reason why create a podcast in the first place. I really had three goals. One is to learn about probate. And so by having guests on who can teach us, explain to the process, we can all learn.

I can learn. Second is build relationships and you're going to learn about the relationship I built with this guest. This is his third time on the show. But also how he's changed his career each of the three episodes. And the third, I think, to go back then, so those relationships are for us to learn, watch, and grow, and approve. And the third is referral sources. We now have an attorney here who's practicing probate

and estate planning in Philadelphia. And so if you have anybody in that area, here's a great person you can refer your attorneys to or real estate agents to. I'm Bill Gross at Bill Gross Probate on social media or Bill Grossprobate.com. I'm really excited to have a guest here today. Andre DeSere is an attorney in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which I guess you can say by coincidence

is my parents' hometown. My approach born in Philly. Both my parents went to college in Philly. My dad went to law school in Penn, which is in downtown Philadelphia as well. So I'm well partial to the city of Brotherly Love. And if you followed him before this episode, the first one we had him, he was working for the court. We'll talk about that. the second time he had left

and was working for a wealth management company as an attorney and then now he actually is an attorney in private practice so his law firm is vexolum law.com we'll put the link in the show notes

you scroll down you'll see if you have questions you can set a consult with them and again what I always look for in attorneys that are probate experts is practice areas are probate and rules and trust which is really avoiding probate so you don't see driving and criminal.

Not those things are good areas for attorneys, but we always want to refer and work with people for experts in that field. So we're really excited to have back on third time guests, Andre, thanks so much to come back. Bill, thank you for having me. Thank you for doing this. The fact that I am here for the third time

is a testament to your consistency, right? So, you know, it's been over three years since we've initiated our relationship and you've kept plugging away and keep doing the good work that you were doing. So it's a testament to you more so than me. Thanks, thanks. That's very nice to say. Thanks so much.

So let's go back in time because I think that I always talk to agents about learn your state laws, learn your county procedures, layout facilities, go to your county's courthouse because everyone's a little different. and if you can let's go back in time and kind of give people some insight and do back when you work for the court. So your official title when I talked to you were working for the judge was what? Law clerk. So Locklerc is a term that you used in L.A.

the term we would use as probate attorney. It's the same exact job. And I think that depending on who you are, one sounds more impressive than the other, but also what could be confusing. Law clerk could sound like to an initiated kind of some volunteer position. because there are clerks who are maybe clerking in law school or whatever. But in Philadelphia, the lot clerk is an attorney, correct? Remember the bar?

Absolutely. And so he's doing the same thing that the probate attorney in L.A. In L.A., we have probate attorneys who represent petitioners and parties. But the probate attorney describes the law clerk equivalent in L.A. who works for the judge and his job or her job is to review the matters, research the matters, prepare the matters for the judge to help leverage the judge's time. And so describe a little bit as a lot cook. What were your responsibilities in the Philadelphia court?

So every matter that came before the judge, you know, petitions were filed, things were initiated, lawsuits were started, anything that came before the judge, I was their first line of defense, so to speak. Right. So I received all files. I prep them for the judge and what I mean is prepping them, right, making sure they,

meet rules and requirements and that I'm not giving the judge something that isn't ready for his attention because they forgot to file this additional paperwork that was necessary or that their pleading is insufficient for whatever reason. And so I would prepare the file, make sure it's ready for the judge. I would also have a sense of the case. And so I would review it and understand what the parties are asking for. I would do the preliminary research and pull up any cases of note or important, say, okay, judge, this is what I believe is a central issue here. Here are the cases on point for that central issue. This is how, you know, what you have to decide and rule on.

And based upon my knowledge and expertise, this is how I believe it should come out. So I would make a recommendation. Now, you know, the judges are free to not. They don't follow most, you know, seven, tens out of time. They don't follow my recommendation or they have, there's something that, you know, I've missed or didn't take into consideration. or they have a different idea about something. And so, you know, final decision is always theirs.

I would prep the case, make a recommendation. I would also write all their opinions. And so the first drafts, once they said, Andre, we're going to do X, Y, and Z on this case. I would have to come up with the written explanation on why we have ruled or decided a certain way in many rounds of edits because it's supposed to be in the voice's tone

and the judge's tone and voice. And so I would have to read their other opinions and figure out how they write and write like them. In Philadelphia, do you have a, in LA, there's a concept of probate notes where the probate attorney in your case, the law clerk, would review the file and then publish electronically deficiencies or their recommendations based on that.

Were those in Philadelphia, are those notes published or made available to attorneys or to parties? No, but there is a informal system for doing So, right, if there's something that's missing, I would reach out to counsel and say, you forgot, you know, maybe your printer ate up this last piece of paper that was supposed to be here. Can you make sure you get that over? Right. And so trying to say, you know, the number one rule and the federal rules, the civil procedure is the expeditious deliverance of justice. And so part of that is making sure, you know, if it's just a piece of one thing that's missing, right, making sure instead of,

of having a sitting out an order and having a 20-day waiting period just to get this thing, sometimes you could look for ways to make things move quicker. But no, to answer your question, things aren't our, the law clerk's notes are not published. The only things that would be published is if something was rejected, say, for instance, it was missing and something was rejected, then it would be published. So rejected because it's missing, X, Y, and Z, file again, pay the filing fee again. And that's really what would be at issue is that every time you file something in court, every single piece of paper, you have to pay money to do that. Like every paper you file. Some are more expensive than others, initiating a lawsuit is somewhere in a

ballpark of $300 to $500 depending on your jurisdiction, right? So just to initiate a lawsuit costs money. Every time you file something, if there's a filing fee. And so when you're making errors and making mistakes, now, and things have to be refiled, let's say, three, four, five times, it's $100, $200 from the client's money. So, yeah, that's why it's important to know what you're doing you get things right. And so for those you watch around the country, I want you to pay attention that if I referred, if I talked to an attorney in Philadelphia and referred to

the probate attorney, they're going to be confused. If I refer to the law clerk, the probate law clerk, or the judge's probate law clerk, they're going to know exactly talking about as to show some sense of understanding. Similarly, in Los Angeles, if you use the word law clerk, not going to know what you're talking about. I've used the word probate attorney

they are. And also as far as notes, it's interesting that where there are online published electronic notes. The judges and the staff assume the attorneys are know the rules and are following them. So in LA, you would be expected to have reviewed them before the court date. In Philadelphia, not, but maybe a relationship,

some like Andre, that maybe he's called, or you call him, my guess is. Or you read court and you drop me in and say hi and ask about that. And so each court is different. and our job as professionals and experts is to learn how that particular court works. The other thing that just pay attention to what he said was that just because he filed something, doesn't mean the judge ever sees it.

It first has to be it. So oftentimes you'll see people say, well, I filed it yesterday. And the judge will say, well, we haven't reviewed it yet. What he means is his law clerk or his probate attorney hasn't reviewed it. And the judge typically won't spend the time doing it themselves. It's just not productive that way. They have other people to do that. So in Philadelphia, you know, you obviously are now an attorney practicing before the same bar that you supported.

So without naming names or causing problems, what were some of the common mistakes that attorneys made? You know, as a realtor, I want to say 9% of my customers are unhappy with the legal representation, typically because they hired an attorney who's not a probate expert. And my experience is those who do get experts are happy to the service. So as the law clerk in Philadelphia, what are some of those common mistakes you would see attorneys make or pro per or pro se filing on their own that they would make? So for the pro se people, I would probate is a, it's like two layers down after regular law. So there's just regular law and then adding them two layers of complications is probate because it uses a lot of archaic terms, things that aren't. used in everyday parlance and are hard to come, like kind of sort of comprehend and understand words

like executor or administrator or personal representative. There is decedent, right? There is intestate. There's testes. There's the beneficiary. There's the fiduciary. There's all these terms that aren't normal or common and each one of them have very particular meanings and matter and are very important in the case. And so to answer your question, the number one issue pro se individuals make is that they confuse. You could, you could, and a lot of pro se people are, a lot of pro se people are very successful in civil court, just by themselves, no attorney,

filing things and doing things in civil court, right? Criminal court would not recommend, right? Your freedom is on the line, or much greater harm. It can be resulted in for a mistake is made, as opposed to civil, it's usually a money damage or some kind of injunction. In probate court, I would say the biggest issue for pro se

individuals is that not understanding, not nomadiculture, not understanding the right terms and getting things mistaken because they, because this world is very idiosyncratic, it's very unique and not knowing this world is a big issue for pro-sate people who otherwise, you know, have PhDs and what have been successful in civil court, they can read, they can reading comprehension, critical thinking, but they just, it's too, it's too unique for people who aren't trained as attorneys and it's especially attorneys in this field handle, right? That's on a pro se. For actual attorneys, the biggest issue I see they make is expectations. Each bar, each bar, criminal bar, civil bar and probate bar, bankruptcy bar, all of the

bars, they have their own individual procedures, things that are full pause or ways that they interact and deal with each other, right? The criminal bar, the defense attorneys and the prosecutors, they have their set of rules and regulations, like unwritten, of course, right? But these are how we operate in this space. The same is true with probate. And so a lot of people who do, who attorneys who dip their toes in probate, the biggest thing they get wrong is the tone, the tenant, right? You're supposed to have a particular tone. When you write a Supreme Court brief to the United States, there's an expectation unwritten on things that you're supposed to do boxes, you're supposed to check. The same is true in probate in that we have

ways that we do business and we can easily quickly identify people who don't, or attorneys that typically don't work in this space because they've approached with a long tone. And for those you're listening to it's such good information because it applies, these prisoners apply throughout the process. You know, I've gone to probate court as a real estate agent and had disagreement with other agent for the judge. And because I watched so many cases by going to court, I've learned how to be laurelily in the way I addressed the judge. You know, it's always with your honor first, and then you make your point. And then you really only answer questions.

So the judge asks, you assume the judge knows everything. If they don't, they'll ask you a question. And so commonly real estate agents in court will just berate the judge with their points and they'll repeat the points. And I can just see the judge being frustrated because they don't get treated that way normally. Attorneys would never treat them that way. But for some real reason, a real estate agent might repeat three times why their commission should be at. And I just know the judges, the more they talk to,

the less the judge respects him. And so we would to learn how to the words he used, the nomenclature, the proper procedures, the proper words, becomes really important to us. So, you know, great insight on that. And for those you want more on this topic, again, I interviewed Andre two times previously once,

the first time in 2002, while he was a member of the courts, I recommend you watch that because there we really went into a whole hour on court procedures and terminology and forms and such. It was a great insight. So, And for those you're watching on this, this is a Zoom format now.

We've moved to. So we'd love to have you come in live. You can, this is Probate Weekly. You can register at probate Weekly.com. You'll get reminders with a Zoom link to come in, as well as links to replay. If you're watching this live today, you're welcome to raise your hand, put a comment in chat box if you want to ask a question. And part of the process of this format is that you should get used to talking to

attorneys in an appropriate way, asking questions. I encourage all my agents I work with to do interviews and video, go to lunch, coffee, and learn from attorneys. Obviously, we want to give them in value as well, but here's your chance to ask Andre some questions if you have any particular. So let's move a little bit to the next stage of your career, and I think it's also an interest to all of us, is you became a probate attorney in a related field with a wealth management company. So I'm talking a little bit about, you know, your decision to make that transition. And obviously, as a real estate agent, if I had a population of people like that, that could be a separate source of business for me. I'm talking about that role and what you did for the firm and what you did for the customers of the firm. So I decided to leave the court about after a year.

That is the typical somewhere between a year, year and a half of the typical timeline for clerking. It's a very, the relationship is very sacred. It's a very special time, right? Like the judge is training up the next generation of attorney. You're also getting to help people, and it's a real public service role, right? But you can't talk to anyone about the work that you do. It's like a cone of silence, very secret. You and the judge, right, the secret sauce to come up on on how to rule and decide on cases.

It's very lonely in a sense that I can't come home and talk to my partner. about these, like, where we're going back and forth with things. So I can't call it my friends from law school and ask their opinion about things, you know, because of the sensitivity and the secrecy of the work that we did. And, you know, so while I, it was, I got to touch my hand on a vast variety of topics, like from, I didn't even know this, that cemeteries, they have these, in Pennsylvania, cemeteries of bian, accountings they have to file because, you know, they hold the public trust, things like that.

And so I learned that they have to, you know, there's an attorney out there who works on just doing accountings for attorneys, right? So I got to touch and learn all these interesting different aspects and areas of the law, but I really wanted to represent clients or deal with people or stand on my own two feet, so to speak, right? Like I went to school for four years and I went to law school for three years. And I passed the law, right? So it's almost eight years of preparing to represent people.

And so I wanted to go out and do that. And so that is when I left the court where I only worked very close to the judge, I went into a private wealth management firm called EP wealth advisors. I work there in their state planning department. And so they offer a service to their clients who pay a fee for their services. They're, you know, it's a registered investment advisor. And so they are fiduciary. They can't churn or they can't take actions on an account if they aren't beneficial for the client.

And the client will pay a fee based upon their total holdings in exchange for this service. So it's not based upon performance. It's just based upon the total net value. And the reason that's important is because if it's based upon performance, then it incentivizes folks or you investment advisors are incentivized to make a lot of transactions or do things that may not be in the best interest for the client, whereas in registered investment, advisors have to take a whole picture into account. Oh, you have deferred comp. So this year you're going to have a much higher tax basis than the previous year. So we have to do things differently this year than we did the last year. You take an account the whole financial picture as opposed to, you know, what makes sense for your bottom line.

It's what makes sense for the client's bottom line. So they paid my firm a fee and in exchange for that, one of the services they provided was access to me and my suite of six or seven attorneys. And so I worked, I had six or seven other in-house council that I work with and all of the clients of the EP wealth who had a certain amount of money and had estate planning issues with set of meetings with us and we worked with them to improve or identify issues or change their state. So for instance, for high net worth individuals got divorced and we have to change their state plan because they no longer want. want their ex-wife to inherit everything, right? And so making sure you just got diverse, have you thought about creating a new will? Oh, I didn't even think about that.

I didn't know what I need to. I thought she ought to know my wife automatically gets removed. No, we have to create new documents, we have to do new things. We have to change a lot of things. And so I did that for another year. I was very intentional about all my jobs and things that I've done.

It's all been geared towards state rules and trust, but some different perspectives, right? One was litigation in the courthouse. Everyday people have disputes and they're looking to come resolve their disputes. Working for EP, I'm dealing with very high networked individuals and learning and talking and figuring out how they take it and what's important to them when they're dealing with an estate planner, when they're thinking about probate and seeing that perspective. It was another add another tool in my tool belt to be what I consider the ultimate estate planning professional. So I like litigation.

I do litigation. I've read and reviewed 100 or 200 or 300 trust and had meetings regarding those trust with individuals. and so I feel very confident in my ability to do different trust, whether it's a qualified terminal interest, right, trust or a key tip for a married couple or insurance, eye lit insurance trust, all of these different trusts. And a fun fact, and a shout out to California, and they are the number one jurisdiction in America for pet trust, because people in California love their pets.

And it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy because so many people in California have pets and create these pet trust for them, there's all this litigation that has happened. And so the law is very developed when it comes to pet trust because of California. And so that is your claim to fame in the state world and trust world. Yeah, I'm not sure if that's a good or bad one. So there's a lot of impact there for those watching. So let me kind of go back a little bit.

First, the clerk position is very prestigious. It's not a career path typically. It's like an honor on your resume. You went to college, went to law school, pass the bar and then had the opportunity to clerk for a judge which is a in the legal world is a sign of excellence a sign of beyond excellence um um um you kind of unique skill and then that volume of value while on one hand it wasn't is not as pleasant working for a for a judge the volume of cases to make him an expert in one year's time he had more experience that he might have worked at a firm

for five or 10 years. In just in terms of numbers of cases, the complexity of cases, you can go work for a firm, a probate firm, they may never see the complicated trust cases that are going through the courterhouse

that Andre had to review on a regular basis. And so it's in common that these companies are a lot of money. EP advisors is interesting. I had met a great probate attorney from a probate law from San Diego, reached out to her,

and before we finalized her appearance of my podcast, she got hired by the same firm, by coincidence, Zendigo, EP wealth advisors. So these large companies who have high net worth individuals, they're charging large fees, they need to give them the best legal help they can. And so they're going to hire amongst the best talent. And, you know, I think you would think of Andre as like first strong draft pick out of the, out of a, you know, out of Notre Dame or Alabama or USC into the NFL. He came from a good school, but he also was a clerk.

That's the kind of guy that won. he had the volume of knowledge. And so, again, as we look at people's resumes, we want to pick up on those clues as you're dealing with. So let's talk a little bit about your work while you're there. Just because, again, our ideas of so much real estate agents looking to build a business, how often do you get involved in decisions regarding real estate with customers while you're at EP wealth, meaning customers have estates, they have questions on plans.

I know like I have a large case where seen past and they had to sell property to where to pay for estate taxes. How often you involved in that process and there's an opportunity for a real estate agent to get involved with you in that case. Absolutely. So one of the things I learned in EP there, not directly hands-on substantive work, was the connections, right? So many, so much of the work, we referred so much work out. And there were firms that had partnership agreements if EP like, you know, we'll be. provide the service that a discount to people you come from that come from you because you refer us so much. So other people don't get access to this because we have this good relationship.

You might handle the finances for the firm itself, like EP has an account with the firm on an investment level. And so they just have a really good relationship. And so I learned about them, I really truly learned about a relationship building and how it can lead to successful practice because there's there are a couple firms that work with with EP and other companies like them that do no other work, but the work provided to them from this financial institution. So, right, he has several billion dollars under assets in the management, right? They are referring 100, 200 cases a month to law firms and right, people, their high-knit-worth individual, I need a lawyer, I'm getting divorced. Or I need a lawyer. I'm buying a company. I need a lawyer right there.

You know, you look, you talk to the people that you know, and you ask for recommendations or referrals. And so I learned, you know, from not a substantive, but from a procedural standpoint, I learned so much my time there about how, you know, reaching out to investment advisors, making those relationships, getting them to know they can trust you that you do good work, that they can refer your clients to them, that you won't, that you'll take your client seriously, how important that it is and how lucrative it can be. Now, for real estate standpoint, absolutely. A lot of the times, a lot of high-neathletuals own a lot of properties and they own a lot of real estate. And real estate was a big issue as far as thinking about how to hand or manage an estate,

whether or not you want the real estate to be sold and you want it to continue to stay in the family to be productive, right? There was a member, there was a rancher in Texas like over my dead body that we saw one parcel of like one inch of land, right? That was like, you know, it's very important to him.

His values was that no land ever gets sold, right? And so making sure that his plan allows or meets his expectations of no land ever get sold. And so that was dealt with real estate a lot. In California, we dealt with a lot. I dealt with a lot of clients in California. So I have a lot of, from my work that I did with the EP, I have a lot of insight into the California system.

And I know you had a proposition recently that changed some of the taxation. And that was a big worry for clients. And that's another thing that the job allowed me to do is that be very reactive to laws. Because when that proposition, was it seven or nine, I forget what proposition it was, the real estate. That couple. You're talking about the changing. in the passing between generations, the property tax? Yeah. I remember what the name of it was,

but I want to say 19, but it was nine, but it used to be an automatic pass down of the valuation property tax assessment, and that's no longer the case. And for some people, that's a big ad expense. Absolutely. And so one of the real key jobs was learning some of these local rules and changes big picture items and then explaining them to clients. And so that was one for that proposition and really having conversations with folks who are concerned about that and figuring out plans and strategies to minimize its impact. Another one is the Trump's Tax, Cuts and Job Act, right? In the end of this year, the estate threshold is set to expire.

Right. And now currently, I believe it's $13 million that is roughly or somewhere around there is the exemption amount on a federal level, meaning. that if you're a state in that value that's under $13 million, you are not subject to the federal estate tax. Tax cuts and job act gave us this very high exemption amount. The highest it's ever been just for some history in 2006 or 2008. It was roughly $1 million or $2 million for a married couple was the exemption. Now we got $13 million, and that is going to expire. And, you know, there are some folks that are going to, you know, be subject to a much higher tax bill because of

this expiration. And, you know, you might want to plan around. that you might want to do things. And so that was a lot of the work that I dealt with. It was a lot of, instead of being reactive, it was very proactive. What is your situation? What are you looking to accomplish? How can we get that done for you? And property is the number one asset most folks held or that we dealt with. I think as a real estate agent, that business is like the cream of the cream of the cream of the crop. However, it's the most challenging to get to because you made the point how deep those relationships are and how important those relationships are to the people who control them. And my experience is when I get

involved with those wealth management, they kind of let me in. I do my piece. And they polite me, let me at the door and close up behind me because they are rightfully concerned about those relationships. And I think we as realtors have to really understand how valuable they are and reaffirm that in our building relationship with our contact, the We appreciate that. We include the information. We keep them up to date. We're proactive on that.

And so those relationships are really critical for us going forward. So I have one, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. There's one point for your audience and everyone listening that is so important that anybody comes across this. If you think you own property, go and get a copy of your deed. Every deed, the recorder of deeds in every jurisdiction all over America, every deed is open to the public. It is public, it's in a public sphere. It is public record. You can walk into any recorder of deeds office, pay the $1, $2 printing fee, whatever it is,

and get a copy of the most recent deed for your property. I cannot stress to folks how much tangled titles, how much not being clear and understanding what deed is most recent, right? People, this is how your home gets thrown. Someone goes and records a deed that you didn't sign, but you had no idea it was there, right? Or you thought you recorded the deed and you get it, maybe. there was an error and you thought that it meant was recorded it wasn't. So for 20 years,

your home, your deed for your home hasn't been recorded. I just, that is one of the biggest areas of conflict is property ownership and understanding your property ownership. Go and get a copy of your deed. Go and get a copy of your Pants' deed. Get a copy of the neighbor's deed. You know what I mean? It's open. It's public record.

Go and get the deeds, have them and keep them in your record and files and know what's going on with your stuff. There's no reason not to. Great advice. You know, this actually goes back. This is biblical. If you go like the story of Abraham, when he bought the place where he went to bury his wife, Sarah,

he bought the property from the public square in a sense of those days and kind of made a public declaration. It was a first recorded document in a sense. And as realtors, we all have access to that data, usually for free. This is what we should be offering to our attorneys. We should be offering to our wealth management clients and our clients that we can check for free annually. to see, you know, they did an estate plan. Did the deed get deed deed into the estate plan? Or as Andre suggested, is there some wild deed that came on afterwards that doesn't belong there?

You could, you know, copy the whole chain and send that to your customer annually as a service you want to do. There's a lot of different ways you can work with this. But we're realtor's access to information for free. Also, I think that when attorneys do estate plans, what I try to tell them is, look, let me pull the deeds for free on the current property. And then let me schedule 90 days after. I'll check the public records and verify that it was recorded in the way you wanted it.

It's just one more service we can provide, and most realtors subscribe to public records for free. In L.A. Our MLS, we have the access through the realist tax service, but as part of our package realtors are great, great suggestion there. Okay, let me just do some real quick housekeeping, and then we'll launch you into kind of the third area. Today, this is probate weekly. It's a get-together every Thursday. New time is at 9 a.m. Pacific time, 12 noon on the East Coast. And we have a Facebook group to continue the conversation, probateweekly.com, I'm sorry, Primate Weekly in Facebook.

And you can go there and post your content to get more views, likes, whatever, as well as ask questions, make referrals and such. If you want to subscribe, go to probateweekly.com, put your email address in, hit subscribe to register. You get the link for the Zoom call and come in live, as well as you can see in other audio formats in past episodes on YouTube.

Our guest today is Andre DeSere, who is the founder and the magic attorney of vexulimlaw.com, V-E-X-I-L-U-M-L-L-U-M-L-L-A-L-L-L-A-L-L-L-A-L-L-L-A-T-R. You'll see, again, he's an expert in probate states from Wills and Trust. If you're a client, make an appointment to see him, you do that right there on the website.

And really glad to have Mrs. Third Time here, and a reminder, we had him when he was a moment. work for the court. We had him when he worked for a wealth magic company. And so he's a third time gasp. It's a third time third angle of the of the diamond, so speak. So let's talk about now the

most current, the current iteration, Andre DeSere 3.0, business owner and attorney. What was it the prompt you to leave the corporate world of EP and to go out hanging on shingle, so speak? I really

enjoyed my time at EP. Was it wonderful. opportunity. I learned from that lawyer that you spoke about, who she, part of the impetus for me taking that job, when I had left the court, I had a bunch of options to be a deputy attorney general of Pennsylvania, was one of them. I looked at that option, working for UPenn. There were a bunch of options on the table. And this one, this woman, April, she made the most sense and I connected with her. I was like, I want to learn from her. I wanted to be a better attorney by shadowing and watching how she did it. And so that was, and, you know, just so serendipitous that you also came into contact with her. So you made such a good point about the business owner aspect.

And that is one of the things. So my firm is about three or four months old. And, you know, there's as a single shingle, as you pointed out, there are a lot of things I have to think about. So I wear a lot of different hats. One of the hats is business owner, right? So filing my taxes, keeping the records, having a business development plan, a succession plan, all of the things that go to operating and doing and running good business, that's something, one thing, like, all on me, I have to do that.

Another aspect is I'm also an attorney, right? So my clients, I actually have to think about their complex legal issues and take off my business, thinking about what makes sense for my business, as opposed to what makes sense for me as an attorney, what makes sense for the client looking to hire an attorney. And then, you know, I also have to think about ethical considerations and all of these other things that go into it. And I think when I was so gung-ho on starting my own firm, I didn't really take into consideration the scope of what that means of, you know,

I spend, let's say I work nine hours a day. I spend six hours a day doing non-law stuff and three hours a day doing law stuff, right? So the marketing aspect, right, my firm website design, scheduling headshots, all of the things that go into being a business owner, right? I spend a lot of time doing them and then, you know, three hours doing legal stuff because there's only nine hours I can work in a day. But what made me decided, I always wanted to open up my own shop. Ever since I was little, I always wanted to be my own boss, so to speak.

I've realized and watched other people make a lot of money for other folks, and I love that, and that's, you know, you need the safety of employment, but I am, I've always wanted to own my own thing and work for myself and take a gamble and a risk on myself because no one else is going to, I have to be, I always thought of like, I have to be, I have to be the one to make something in this world of myself. And so that's part of my impetus and my reason for starting my own firm. And obviously, based on your experience, you chose to focus in on probate and what I call

voided probate, wills and trust, which means experience. So unquestionably, you have tremendous experience background, probably connections in the court, in the court system that would be a great value to customers. The challenge is how to get customers to appreciate that, right? And it's so funny, the reason we're on the call today, for those of you're watching, I'm a little embarrassed in that I have a national platform of companies that work nationally who call me and say, hey, we need a realtor in this location, that location. Sometimes I need attorneys. So I needed a realtor in Philadelphia and I posted on Facebook or LinkedIn and I said, hey, how about me? Now, it turns out we didn't need an attorney, so I thought.

but here's what I knew. I knew that whoever my platform was using his attorney was as good as Andre would be. How do I know that? Because I know his background. I know his experience level. Now, has he developed that yet as a private practitioner? No, he's kind of launched a few months ago. But, you know, I know that hungry dogs hunt best.

And not to say Andre's a hungry dog, but mean to say that those of us who are motivated to build our business are always going to give better service than those who are content to somewhat lazy. When we all have met a lot of attorneys or other business people who are content with the business people, who are content with the business. And we wonder why they don't give us a better service. And the answer is it's not that boring to him. And so Andre right away responded. I said, hey, hold on.

I didn't really think about you, but you're a perfect fit for this client. Let me make an introduction. I know the client was really happy. I'm not sure what has led to in terms of billable hours yet. but I know there was a great connection. The client is actually from Philadelphia, so I know we're going to do some business there, it turns out. And more importantly, it kind of requited me,

put me back on this radar screen to get him on the call today. So let's talk about what do you do in those nine hours a day, three hours as in doing legal work, six hours as a businessman. What are some of the activities you do as a business development? And then second, and that would be work kind of a real estate agent who wants to help you to build their business and build a relationship. where can they be assistance to you?

So I think the business development part is so marketing, making sure, you know, Google ads, your Facebook ads, you're making sure you have a good marketing team and campaign. So hiring a good marketing firm or figuring out getting a good social media marketing person is very important, right? And so I do have a team that I'm working with and figuring out what clientele and target market I'm looking for and how that, where they are, where it's going to be my client and the people that I'm looking to work with and how to,

I get the message to them that I'm available and looking for clients, right? So that is one of the things that I'm currently working on and figuring out another thing. So I have, when I left, you know, I've done a lot of pro bono work. I've done a lot of consulting. I've talked and spoken with folks and, you know, I always pick up my phone call, my phone. I get people my cell phone number. You know, maybe in a few years I won't do that. Maybe that practice will, will be one of the first to go. But as it stands now and for ever since I've done. been barred, I've always given folks my number, and I received calls, and, you know, there was one client I helped with a free pro bono matter two years ago. She's referred to me at least six or seven

people, right there. So I believe doing good and putting it out there in the universe, reaching out to your clients, treating people who are connected with from your friends. Like, anybody that Bill puts me in contact with, I never delay sending them, you know, right? So I don't, like, oh, I'll get to that later. And I'm like, oh, this is the bill. contact, I need to show extra professionalism because I value my relationship with Bill, and I won't build them until I value anybody he puts me in front of me in. So, right, that little will respect it. It goes a long way and it matters. Day to day, I'm currently doing a lot of the state litigation. I actually just received my first paid scrivener or

drafting client. I'm trying to to dial back on the litigation, so to speak, and that I don't I don't want to be pigeonholed is just a litigator. I don't want to be stuck doing the only one thing. I'd like to write some trust and some drafts and wills and some state plans for folks. And so I just landed my first actual will client. So I would be creating a will for someone. I just did my first court appearance yet on Monday in Orphins Court, the court I used to work in. And it was not with my judge retired, has since retired since I've left.

But the judge before that, one of the things that we had to do in the first thing that It was on the record point that we, when I worked there, we occasioned upon each other, right? Like, I don't have to work for her, but we would have a holiday party, her and I interacted. And so we had to disclose our relationship. The first thing that happened on court Monday, we disclosed that we had a prior work, sort of working relationship. And, you know, the opposing party didn't object. There was no need of refusal motion filed. So I just recently appeared in my court system.

And relationships matter, right? I know the clerk on the matter because when I was a clerk, me and that clerk, we knew each other. And so relationships matter, very important, your reputation. I think I've said this before, and I'll say it again, you cannot, once you've tarnished it, it is impossible to fix that or remove that same. You might, you know, be able to continue to do other things, but your reputation is important. You have to protect it. You have to guard it with your life.

You have to be very intentional about who you are, how people perceive. you and is it what you want to be happening? And so making sure I always put my best foot forward. People know who I am and what I stand for. I'm doing a lot of litigation. I need to look into to do a little less litigation, just because I want to continue honing those skills and you only do that by practice.

So a lot to impact there. I'm just a fountain. Let me make sure a couple terms he used, that went by real fast, make sure you pick up. And he used the term barred. He didn't mean he was barred as in a can't practice. He meant when he passed the bar exam and was admitted to practice a lot at the bar association.

When he refers to bars, he doesn't mean he's bar hopping down Philadelphia. I don't know Philadelphia has much of a bar scene or not, but in terms, he means attorney organizations. He used a term orphans court. And this is interesting because so many jurisdictions have different terms. In L.A., we call probate court, and that covers probates as well as conservators.

which is where orphans might go, as well as, I'm sorry, adults who are conserved, who are incapacitated as well as guardianships, which is where children and maybe orphans go. But we call all that probate court in Philadelphia, all that's called orphans court. And New York surrogates court is another big one. Surrogates court is another very popular name

for this section or area of the court where these matters particularly are handled. Orphans court, probate court, surrogate court, they're all courts of what's called equity. And so the relief that you're looking for The things that the judge is going to do are going to be equitable release, right? I'm looking for equity.

I'm looking for fairness. I want to write a wrong or fix something that is wrong as opposed to I'm looking for money damages. I'm looking for transfers to property. While there's a lot of that happening, but it is first and foremost court of equity. So make sure of all those watching that you know the right term in your court. It doesn't matter when it is in LA.

It matters where it is where you practice. And the last one he mentioned was the power of networking. And I just don't think that non-attorneys understand how important is the attorneys. The Bar Association in particular has networking events, you know, Christmas Party or Holiday Party or get together with the judges or whatever. And while online is great, I found just like he mentioned, Andre was there. He, his capacity, worked for one judge. He met another clerk. He made another judge.

He became the judge. Those relationships are so powerful. and attorneys use those. And so I really urge all agents to find if you are local bar association, in L.A. We have multiple. If they have an affiliate relationship, you can join as an affiliate and go to events to learn as well as to network. And those relationships are worth staying in touch with over a long period of time. So today as an entrepreneur in the field of law, you get business.

obviously I'm somebody who's, you know, purge some leaves and such. You know, how do you maintain those relationships? I mean, I know obviously you're a call with me here today. People reach out to you. You mentioned Facebook ads. Are you more using paid marketing?

Are you also networking in advance? Do you get the chance to speak at real estate advance or financial planning events or things like that? No, I haven't. And there are, you know, you and I are in a couple of, there's a bunch of Facebook groups for state planning professionals. There's a bunch of just these like hyper centralized or focused on this area of the law and then all the practitioners from all over the country, right? Well, they're all in these groups and these think tanks or organizations. And so I can go on in any of these forums and just like looking for, you know, looking for an attorney in Pennsylvania.

And then, you know, because I'm part of this group organization, hey, I'm here, here's my email, and I'll just receive email to folks who might have an issue. That is one way, you know, finding my local groups and letting them know I'm available. And I participate in those groups. So I'm not just looking for business. I'm also posting interesting probate content. I'm also participating. And this, that concept leads frog into what I think it goes at the heart of your question is about these relationships, not you maintain that. It's not about just taking. You have to give to in those relationships. And so you have to think about that person and provide them an opportunity and show them that you value the relationship. It's not a one-way street. You're not just receiving clients from them. You're also either sending them clients or business, right? Or you're asking or you're including them and the things that you do. Hey, I'm writing this thing, this white paper. I'd love it if you partnered or joined them, showing them that I value them. And so that is one of the ways that you can maintain those relationships, showing the people that you work with that you value and sending them a card. on a holiday or if you, when I launched my, you know, law firm, just, hey, every, my few

the people I'm really close with, hey, I launched my website, do you have any criticism or critiques? Do you anything you think I can prove? Or what do you think about this, right? Just asking for their opinion shows them that you value them, that you value the relationship, that you're thinking of them. And that is what I found to be a successful two-way street relationship. And folks will think of you in the future and you will think of them in the future.

thinking about not just yourself but your colleagues, how likely are you if I called you out of the blue and said, hey, Andre, I saw you in court, I saw you on a matter, or I know you have a probate and will practice. I specialize in a real estate in the area. I'd love to meet you. You would be available to go out to lunch.

How likely are you, if I sound professional, it sound interesting, is that likely to, some of you never met before? And then second, if I did bump into you at a networking event, let's say a bar association or similar professional event, same question, how likely, how comfortable are you meeting people for coffee or lunch or something like that? 10 out of 10. I'm at a point in my career where I'm very liberal with my time. Like I told you about, you know, picking up and giving out my cell phone numbers on my website,

literally go on my website and see myself phone number and call me. I'm similar with my time currently that if somebody reaches out, somebody asks, I will meet with them. I will give them my time. You know what I mean? Like I think that's important, even if nothing. nothing comes from it, just showing people that you are available, that, you know, it, before I became an attorney, I cannot think of a time that I met and rub shoulders with an attorney, right? Like, I can't think of a time. It never happened.

And I was late, I was late, boom, I didn't go to law school until 27. So for, you know, I had a good five or six years in the professional field. I never sat down and had lunch with an attorney, right? That wasn't, and so I am also cognizant of my position in society in that not only only am I looking for business and those business relationships, but I'm also, you know, exposing folks to a profession that, that for the most part, has been very opaque and guarded and private, right? Attorneys, we walk by all their offices because of our, we have to keep information, we have

a duty to keep information discrete. You see all the shades and the blinds, and it looks really intimidating that you can't look into an attorney's office. It's very, there's a mystique around it, and I'm trying to demystify it. And so on a personal level, yeah, I want business, but I also, want people to sit down and have lunch with attorneys because they may never have been able to. And I think that's generally true. It's real true.

We don't appreciate that most attorneys I find are open to a reasonable approach like that. Maybe cold, maybe at a networking event, for sure, a networking event. Anytime you meet an attorney, you should say, hey, I'd love to go out to lunch. You can give you a call next week and work that out because, or coffee. Or you stop by their office with coffee. but I just find, of all professionals, the attorneys are most open to that format, the nature of their business lends itself to it.

So I encourage all of you to do that. I know when I called you, you were working in for the court the first time, how likely are if I call you the blue and said, hey, I'm a realtor working in probate or estate planning or wealth management, how likely do you think you're, not you, because obviously we have a relationship,

but how likely you think your colleagues are to say, yeah, I do an interview or I go on your podcast, how likely you think attorneys are in that field to say yes. I don't think so. I think a lot of my colleagues are very protective of their time. They are not very liberal with it. And that's why there's that always the, whenever I get a call or that, you know, someone's like, oh, thank you for your time. And I'm just like, you know, I think there's a, in the zeitgeist attorneys are very protective of their time. And they don't, they don't share with folks liberally. So I would say that my colleagues, my approach and mindset is very different from, I think, what is standard in my industry. They're not going to be rude or mean to. They just won't make themselves available. It's, you know, it's a trick and skill that they've taught us on how to do is to make ourselves unavailable. I know how to make it so people cannot get a hold of me or in contact with me because, you know, they've taught us how to do that. And so I will think that my colleagues are not, them going to lunch with non-attorneys doesn't happen too often. Most of it, there's

several reasons, right, right? Like, we've heard all the horror stories of giving someone advice and they think that they're your client and when things go wrong, just because off the cuff, I gave you opinion and now I'm responsible for that and to just avoid that altogether you know they avoid lay people right like we we just typically avoid lay people because they don't want to accidentally say something that might come off across as advice and then listen to it and all of a sudden there might be an ethical issue there interesting and so I think a part of the solution for us as real state agencies find those attorneys in your market that are open that are open and they're evidenced by posting videos posting online posting blog posts

participating in Facebook groups, they're almost saying, hey, I'm available to talk. And those are the ones that's how I found, Andreas, I found, I find the other attorneys I work with in a interview. I never really thought about that way that you're right. I think generally, you're right, they're hesitant, but I'm also self-selecting amongst those who are, you know, on a mission to get their message out. And those are ones who want to talk, other ones I want to talk to as well. Yeah. And I think I've mentioned it before, and I, how I, this area of the law is very, when I was thinking about preparing for this meeting and what the things I wanted to get across, there was one point, particularly substantive point I wanted to get across. What I am

noticing in my litigation practice, and if this message got out more, I think it would happen less or occur less, are folks waiting so long to get other professionals involved? There is something about like, you know, going out of the loan or suffering silence or, you know, waiting until things get catastrophic before people reach out and look for help. I would encourage folks, right, Because a lot of the time, people coming after me, their parent died in two years ago, 2022. And their sibling has for the last, you know, 18 months ignored them and siphoned all the mom's accounts and done X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, why we come in 18, 19 months after the fact, why didn't you come on four or five when you ask your sister what's going on with Mama State and she blocked you on Facebook? Right.

Why didn't you come at that point as opposed to coming two years later, right? because, you know, and it's tough because I have to establish rapport. I have to make it feel good. I have to get relevant information. So I can't try to, it's harder for me to try to ascertain what made them wait so long because, you know, I have to have other things I need to accomplish. And I can't spend time and energy and effort trying to figure out something that's important to me, but may not be important in this representation.

Well, I think I can everything in life. The early you get on things and the more preparation you do, the better result you have. And if you don't, you'll pay the price at some point. in the future. So just to wrap up, thank you so much, Andre, just always appreciate your time, your instruction. You've been just a great resource to me personally as well as to my channel. So thank you for your mission, continued success as your career path and for anybody looking for an attorney in the field of probate trusts or avoiding probate through proper planning with wills and trust in Philadelphia and greater Philadelphia area, Andre DeSere,

Vexulim law, V-E-X-I-L-L-U-M-L-L-L-M law. lot.com is the website. Go there and he has a whole, you know, especially who he is, what he does, as well as if you have a legal matter, you can book right on there, a legal consult right on his website. Again, I always look for this. His practice areas of probate and avoiding probate. What we don't want to do is start working too much with somebody who's not an expert in the field who's going to help us. So again, Ida, thank you so much for your time. Remind you, this is probate weekly. We get together every Thursday 9 a.m. New time, 9 a.m. Pacific time, 12 noon, and then we'll post it on YouTube,

Facebook, and LinkedIn as recorded version later. You can join the Facebook group, probateweekly.com. I'm sorry, probate weekly is the Facebook group of about 4,000 members, post your content, questions, looking for referrals, looking for an attorney or realtor in other states. That's, you know, what I requited me with Andre was posting that in my own group. And then if you want to join the program, probateweekly.com is the website. You can register, you'll get links for Zoom call, come in live, ask questions, as well as scroll down, and you can get audio formats as well as past episodes on YouTube. So again, Andre, again, thank you so much.

Congratulations on your launch and continued success. I know I personally look forward to work with you as well personally. Bill, thank you for having me. Thank you for hosting this. Thank you for the work that you do in this space. I've come across so many folks individually, independently in this area, and I'm like, you know, Bill goes. And then you are every, tons of people know you,

you are well respected and well liked. And so, you know, somebody has to give you your flowers when you're alive to receive them. So well done, Bill. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for me. We'll see you guys next week.

Thank you so much.