KGCI: Real Estate on Air - Transformational Leadership and the Real Estate Evolution with Scott Brown

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

I think your mindset's really important, but I think the state of your heart is equally important. And I said, I think you're underrated as a carer, caring for other people. And the guy looked at me and he went, thank you. That is who I am. So I'm attracting people to me who want to grow, who want to learn, who can admit their struggles, who can be vulnerable. But ultimately, I think the commonality is that maybe all of us that are at least the people I come in contract, the desire to transform. I used to chase the RLI all the time, return on investment. And over the course of time, that is evolved into what I call return on life.

Welcome to the Return on Life podcast where it's not about the ROI. It's about the what? Return on life. And I've got a great guest with me today. This guest, this guest, man, we just talked before we jumped on here about our past. And believe it or not, we both spent time in Saskatchewan. He spent many of his years there. I went to school just north of Saskatoon, and so some great, great thoughts and memories of that.

But Scott Brown is my guest, and we've gone through a lot of work together because he's been in the real estate business for years and years. That's where I met Scott. But today he is doing something so much more than just the real estate game. He is involved in leadership at so many levels. And I'm going to let him share with us where. he is leading people and how he's changing business owners, entrepreneurs, and of course creating exceptional leaders. Welcome to the show, Scott. You know, Randy, I was looking forward to this. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. I'm thrilled to talk to you anytime. So there's some

other people going to sit in and one of our good conversations. Oh, well, that's great. And we've been getting to know each other a little bit more on a deeper level through McKay, CEO form. And that's been a lot of fun. Share with our viewers, our listeners, that transition because a lot of people are going to know you from Fifth Avenue, but you've transitioned and now you've kind of expanded everything you're doing. Maybe share with our viewers with what you're doing. We'll probably go into some of my background through the time together, but I'll kind of bring it up to the current. When I first started at Fifth Avenue, I remember about six months in or so. And my job was there to help the founders transition out.

They weren't ready to sell, but they were going to sell over time. And they hadn't trusted somebody with their baby to grow it up and help some new ownership come in. And I remember sitting there and it was the weirdest performance review and the only one I had there. The whole 11 years I was there, the only one. One performance review in 11 years. Yeah. The first one went that well that we didn't have anymore. So the one founder sitting at the end and this wasn't any.

anywhere near COVID. It's like 2013, but he's got a cold. So he's the way at the end of the boardroom. And he's quite an intense person. Love him to death. We're still friends. But he is intense. And his wife is sitting next to me. She's this, he's, he's now the CEO. She's the president. Because part of me going in there, I said, if you're not interested in restructuring, you're on your fourth general manager. I'm not coming in as your general manager. So, uh, so he says to me, you know, something funny. And I challenge him. And he says, well, a problem with you is that the only two people in the world who tell me no, most of the life are sitting at that end of the table.

And then his wife goes, her opening comment to me was, I don't get you. She says, this is good or bad. She goes, don't get me wrong. You're very good at real estate. You understand it. But I don't think that's what drives you. And I said, well, what do you think drives me? She scratched her head for a bit.

And she said, developing people. And I said, yeah. So for me, fast forward, I've always been doing that inside Fifth Avenue. and a number of people who are leaders in the industry were also working with me and other companies when we were international and always helping them develop, right, as opposed to me developing them. It's helping them develop. But my business was developing people. It happened to be in a real estate context that I understood and mastered and did love.

But what I was happening recently the last few years was there were a number of sort of traumatic things in the business. I had to step in for one of our partners in one of the business. who passed away and he's 54 years old and he has a three-year-old. So we did an ambulance chase. So we took the business on and ran it for a buck for six months. And then his wife finally said to me, no, I do need to sell this. So we bought it. But I was really good at suffering and taking on these responsibilities.

But the biggest secret inside the business and even inside me was while I was very competent, I wasn't happy. And I remember going for a walk and, from my faith hearing the voice I hear often. It's not a crazy voice telling me to kill my neighbor or anything. It's always kind and funny. And it said, you know, it's a suffering voice. Yes, you suffer really well.

And I'm like, okay, that's fine. I said, I don't think you want me to be happy. Or I don't think I want you to be happy. And I was like, wow, I scratched my head. And then about two days later, I was out for a walk around the neighborhood. And I was realizing I wasn't happy. And so I hear this voice again say, I have three sons, 28, 26, 22, like, those are my people, okay?

Like, far and away, my wife and them are my people. And so I hear this, your sons, yes, paying attention. You want them to be happy? Of course. But they're going to suffer sometimes. And I said, yep. And what will you do when they suffer? And I said, I'll be with the minute.

And all I heard the voice say was exactly. So I said, so you do want me to be happy? So then I was lost, right? So I'm sitting here, operating in a business, bringing clarity and direction to clients and everything. And I am lost. I'm sitting in the driveway. You're chasing the R.O.I. And I'm 58 years old.

Like, is this the time to be lost and changed? Like, and I'm not looking to retire. I mean, I can, I've got 12 years or more in me of. But so what I did was I've kept a journal since I was 23. And I have lots of my stuff electronic. The journal is still paper. Like this morning I was up at 10 to 5 a.m. And I'm in that journal for anywhere from 30 minutes to 45 minutes.

It's kind of prayer, kind of conversation, kind of things I learn. But every day. And I rarely miss, but I'm not guilty if I miss. It's just as I get older, I need it more. I thought I would need it less. I don't. But in there, I wrote a little box and I put T-I-D-L-Y. Things I did love yesterday.

Okay. Right? And so I wrote down every day at work was where was my joy? What did I love doing? And what kept coming literally over a year was coaching, helping a client with their business, helping a client with a tough employee, right? Helping a client think through a strategy, right? Coaching, you know, giving a speech, right, doing things. And it really came back to the fact that the things I was loving the most and was great at, I was not doing enough. And I was spending too much of my energy on time and things I'm really

good at that I don't like. So that became this thing. And then I also wanted to understand that one of the things that I've learned in leadership is, and I say this to people all the time, and they think it's kind of funny, but I said, look, Randy, don't feel sorry for yourself about this truth, okay? But no one is really ever, really, truly going to understand you. Okay? but I hope in your life people like me stay curious the whole way.

But you can understand you. And what I'm learning is self-leadership and developing the self-understanding and self-appreciation and self-value is very, very powerful. And around that, what I learned was that I'm really good at a bunch of stuff that I assume everybody else is. And they're not. Each one of us is unique. And when we talk about teams and work settings, I always say give a little talk and I say there is no I, in team, everybody knows that, and every realtor goes, yeah, but there's one in commission. And then, but I said, did you know, there should be a you in team?

That a team, in the Aztec way of the team, is that each person's bringing their unique self and contribution to the collective and therefore making the collective stronger. It honors the uniqueness of each team member. Right. Right. One of the CEOs I was coaching today, we do movie unpacking, and he was in Heroes Journey Work, and I've made this stuff up, but it's quite profound. And so he was talking about Oceans 11.

And we used it as a metaphor for incredible team building. And the U's, that each U is unique and had a different role to play in that. So some of this self-leadership and doing that, what I started to understand with the things I did love yesterday was really getting clear on, and I kept another little grid for a while, great and love at. And love is in the activity, not the outcome. If you love real estate because you like the deal, right, or you really like the outcome, you probably don't. The people who truly love it, they love the activity.

No matter what in the market, they love whether it's the activity of meeting someone new, assessing something, seeing opportunity. Love is in the activities. If you love what you do, you love the activities and the outcomes happen, right? Sometimes great, sometimes not, but the love is in the activity. So I started to pay attention to those activities, and then I took a risk. and was vulnerable. And I wrote down what I thought I was unique at, my ability. And I wrote down what I thought my three core strengths were.

Right. And I sent it to clients. And I sent it to staff. And I sent it to peers and other, I sent it to competitors. And I said, I don't want affirmation. That's not why I'm sending it to you. I think this is what I'm learning about myself. What is your reaction to it?

And so some of my staff were that's spot on, but you missed this and you edited that, and edited and crafted it. And over the course of a year, I created one piece of paper that I always glue inside any folder I have with files in it. And every now and then, I take time every day and just look at, this is me. Am I being this? Because if I'm being this, it's incredibly encouraging and powerful. And if I'm not. And so long story short, when I looked at that and saw that the umbrella I wanted to finish my life,

with was back kind of where I started, but not in circles, at another level of it, up climbing a mountain, but going concentrically around the mountain, was I wanted to focus on advancing leaders and their leadership teams with a particular heart for entrepreneurs, which realtors are, they forget, right? And entrepreneurial leadership teams. And so then when I looked at that and thought what I could do is I'd been a big believer of peer learning, and I was a member of an organization called McKayson. CEO forms where you get together with 10 to 12 or 14 CEOs confidentially non-competitive.

And you deal with the fact that it's very alone. When I took over as president, the thing that shocked me was, I'm there for everybody. No one's there for me. The shareholder is not there for me. You can't be vulnerable with them. You can be honest, but you can't be vulnerable. So I found my people. So then with that, I decided I wanted to spend a portion of my time, right, bringing other

leaders together, not just in the development construction and real estate industry, but also in other industries for a diversity of perspective, which is where I started my career. I was as much in financial services as I was real estate. I also think real estate is financial services. We'll talk about more about that later maybe. So that idea that I help this group called McKay-C. Co. Forms is Canadian, BC founded, about 1,200 CEOs across Canada. And so I have three groups that I kind of shepherd and care for of CEOs. And I love all these people. And I'm there to support them. And I bring them together and they have a speaker and then they bring business issues and personal issues. And they connect and help each other. So today I had, you know, breakfast with one

CEO and lunch with another. And they can be completely, I have no horse in the game. I have no agenda other than to be present with them and help them. So, so, so, Which is a true shepherd. Yeah. Which is a true shepherd. That's the really cool thing. I love that word that used. I get the shepherd.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, being a courger, a coach, sometimes a challenger. Yeah. And so I spent a good portion of my time doing that. Then also in the businesses I was in, I used to work to help big time developers and companies going through high growth, structure for that growth, mission, purpose, value, strategy, business plan. and the sales process marketing departments build them up. So we brought a system in called the entrepreneurial operating system.

There's about 250,000 companies in the world using it right now. They want to get a million. About 20,000 of them have an implementer at one time. So they actually hire someone to come in and help them, but it's an implementer. Not a consultant with reports. Somebody comes along and says, here's how you use the tool. Watch me use the tool. Yeah, that's right.

See you, go play with these tools. bring your business forward. I'll see again in 90 days, right? And then you'll graduate at some point. So we'd brought that into all of the three businesses I was CEO or four at one time. I was CEO of four related businesses. And we ran fifth of one of them. But we ran all our core services like finance and HR out of our fifth office. We were on the island, Colona, downtown Vancouver with a different brand and fifth. And so we'd brought that system in. I'd referred several clients to it. So I decided that at the encouragement of a couple of these implementers to get certified in that. So I have development construction clients that I help their leaders and leadership team

actually operate their business as a business accelerator. I come in, coach, challenge support, go away, check in, and then I'm there, call away again. So shepherding the CEOs, shepherding the actual business and leadership teams. And then there's some advising I do that's very specific to CEOs when they're really struggling with bigger issues because of the, of the matters I've been. Can I just stop there? So your shepherding, leading, guiding, individuals, high net worth, big bucks, like tens to hundreds

of millions of dollars. Human behavior drives decisions in so many ways, and emotion gets in the way of those decisions. are all people the same when the stuff hits the fan or have you noticed that there's different different people react differently or different human behaviors react differently when the stuff hits the fan or is it all the same because you've you've been in some high pressure big dollar big ego rooms is it all the same or is it different well it's a good question Because I think one of the things we may underestimate in each one of us is our attraction skills or abilities.

I think I attract people to me who want to be genuine, who want to be real, who want to be vulnerable and want to lead better. So those people that are attracted to me that want to work with me and engage with me are very similar. And what they're going through at that state is oftentimes struggling with figuring out how to balance an abundance mindset. But also, I like another term. So today I'm talking to somebody and they're like they've got the trifecta money, right, and their health. And they had one other, right? And I said, I think you're, oh, mindset. And then I said, you're missing one.

What's that? I said, I think your mindset's really important, but I think the state of your heart is equally important. And I said, I think you're underrated as a carer, caring for other people. And the guy looked at me and he went, thank you. That is who I am. So I'm attracting people to me who want to grow, who want to learn, who can admit their struggles, who can be vulnerable. But ultimately, I think the commonality is that maybe all of us that are at least the people I come in contract, the desire to transform, right?

Not out of resolving a problem, I'm not good enough, but out of a discovery like hunting their true selves, that I became my true self and then the world tried to shut it down. And the rest of my life, I'm trying to rediscover my true self. So most of the people I attract to want to transform themselves first and then influence their world. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's the commonality.

And that requires an honesty, a vulnerability, caring for others. And the balance of this idea of I need to focus on myself to make sure myself can give off good to other people. But I can't be so self-absorbed that I forget about the other people. So I'm attracting people who generally want to give as much as they get. Right. So that's been exciting. But, yeah, I've met a bunch of ego people that, that, you know, if it's all about them, right, I'm either not their cup of tea or they're not my cup of tea.

You know, something I've been really working on myself and creating some content around is the chosen versus the chump. And knowing early on, if you're chosen or you're chump, and chump really is somebody that's played and taken advantage of. And I've added up all of those meetings that I ended up being chumps. And you try so hard to connect and make work and do the best for them, and you just end up feeling like you've been used.

Yeah. Well, put it this way. What we're both saying is that we operate our best in the spirit of mutuality, right? That if I'm looking out for your best interest and your value in appreciating me back, we can have a powerful relationship. If it's all your way, those people, you can never really please them. No. Right?

But also, we've all had painful stories where, I've made people a lot of money. And I've been taking advantage a couple times very seriously. And a lot of that has been not being valued and appreciated for how I made them a lot of money. So even recently. So what my goal is not out of pain or disappointment or I'll stick it to them, but I'm like, one of the things I love to do is I tell people all the time, if I took my shirt off right now, there's a lot of business, deep scars on my back because I'm weathered from experience.

but as much as I like to encourage them and help them have glorious successes, if any one of my failures or shortcomings at 58 now, and they're 42, if they can avoid that, I get a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction of saying, well, at least there was a greater good in that than just me being taken advantage. Right. And that is true leadership. That is true leadership. When you can give everything that you've done and say, listen, I've been through this, You can have all this. I'll give this all to you.

And then you can go and create legacy yet. That is true leadership. That's authentic true leadership. And you're such an authentic connector as well. Yeah, I learned that. How do you learn that? How did you foster that within yourself? Well, my wife last when we first got married, she said a couple things.

She said, you do realize you're a bit of a natural leader. I said, what do you mean? We were on vacation to Barbados, but our plane had to land prematurely because of somebody had a heart attack. And when we landed, we landed hard. So they have to fix the airport. So we're sitting in an airport, firewalled off because we're in the U.S. So we're not, we're no man's land, no food or anything. And she says, and so what happens?

She goes, next thing, 15 people are surrounded you, and you don't know any of them. And they're all saying, what do you think we should do? She goes, it's just like, she goes, it's just bizarre. She goes, you're a magnet for this stuff. It was kind of funny. And so... How old were you then? 33.

Not even, no. We were just married. I was like, we just had our first son, 30. And these people had no idea who you were, but they just... Wow. But then I looked back and I was in grade 8 and this in Saskatoon where I went to school in the winters and they had this future scam. They had people from all over the world envisioning the future 23rds.

And there was a handful of high school kids invited and there was a special school. and there was a special leadership summit at it. And I just randomly, my principal comes in and says, you're going to this. So I was like, you know, there was only four other people in there 18 or 16. Right. So those kind of things started to happen. Now I look back on it and I go, okay, kind of makes sense that I've been on a path to kind of develop leaders my whole life and I've gotten lost and done different things.

So that's been interesting. So when you meet people now or what could we tell our, listener, if there's something that is kind of like bubbling to the surface, what is that one thing that we could share with them that, gosh, I am a leader, because a lot of us don't recognize it. You maybe didn't recognize that. And if we can help future leaders see themselves as leaders before they understand it, is there something that we could share?

Well, I'd say there's probably, that's a great question. There's probably a couple of things. I always refer to also leadership as large L leadership and small. leadership, right? Large L leadership is when you have a formal title like president or director and you have to do certain things. Small L is, I believe everyone in an organization possesses an ability to lead in the area of expertise, speciality. And so when you master something and you're serving, right, so that's one hint. If you really find that you're somebody that naturally wants to serve other people, pay attention, you're a leader, right? You're not a

manager, you're not a power figure. That first, that desire to serve is a fundamental aspect of leadership. So just pay attention when you see that. The other one is great leaders are actually really good followers. So if you follow people well, you might really be a good leader. In my experience, my favorite type of leader initially is reluctant ones. When people want leadership too quick, I'm very suspicious. Because usually, and I spent years in one company, We took it from $250 million in sales and resort real estate to $2 billion in sales. Quite a leadership stunt. And so I worked with our, like the top agents that work for us were making a million dollars.

Wow. Like after taxes. So they made more than I made, right? Because I could go sell if I wanted to, but they were like the typical fee for a salesperson where you're selling international resort real estate net to them was 1%. Right. There's firms that don't make 1% on the whole tower. So we would sit there, but I would often talk our best person who wanted to become a sales leader, right, out of being a sales L leader, I said, do you need to be valued and appreciated differently involved as a strategic partner in that?

Because if you really want to be a sales leader, like the functional leader, it's not about you. You better get ready for that. And you've got to really enjoy developing and coaching people. And so I probably talked more people out of staying in sales, but making sure they got valued and appreciated, and were able to lead by their contribution but not lead other people. So you could be a leader, you can be an influencer, or you can be a leader of people.

And if you're a leader of people, you better like serving. By I say reluctant, you better understand the huge responsibility that is to actually, when you enter into somebody's life as a leader or a coach, I take that responsibility and privilege and honor very, very seriously. If you don't take that seriously, then you have no business being a formal leader. So that service heart, that curiosity generally about people, that belief that everybody can be better at things they're meant to be better at. Not everybody can be better at everything.

Because like, you know, if you're a thumb, right, you're not going to make a very. very good toe. So let's just be a great thumb. Okay. So it is nature or is it nurture or both? I think it's a both. I think that there's a birthing or in some people there's an innate ability, but I do think that leadership, like, here's a good question. I read this the other day. My leadership changed significantly in two ways. In 2016, when I realized leadership mattered to me greatly and pissed me off when I saw it poor in organizations or politics. And my wife said to me, I think you have a new personal value. And so that became daring leadership, right? Daring, was courageous, vulnerable, real. And the other one is one of my sons was going through a form

of trauma. And he put me on to, he was learning, and I follow him. He taught me more about vulnerability as a leader by introducing me to Bray Brown in her content. And I was like, yeah, that's the right way to lead. which these days especially if you want to transform people, you better be empathetic. And she said empathetic can be developed as a skill. If you have an innate ability, you'll just be better at it. But you can do it. So I think that there's a portion of leadership that can be taught, right?

But I also think that those who are willing to let circumstances shape them can master leadership without necessarily a ton of innate ability. And it's not nurture. That's the wrong word, okay? It's probably, because I didn't feel very nurtured as I was developing as a leader. No? No, challenged.

Challenge. Right? Yeah. So what I'd say is it's circumstantial, right? And internal. Internally, this desire to develop. The circumstantial is you want to be a great leader, right? Stuff's going to come in your life that's going to challenge you, right?

And so it didn't feel very nurturing. It wasn't a little mother and giving me milk. It was, nope, life just got real hard. Shit just got real. Pardon my expression. And so I think that circumstances can help shape a leader. And you can learn a lot from other leaders who've been through. I would never follow a leader who hasn't failed enough.

And I wouldn't follow a leader who's not genuine about those failings. And that isn't always still curious in learning. Is that skill better nurtured on a personal level? So personal being our own internal, personal stuff that we've got going on, or personal relationships, or in a work setting. Where do we get more value? I met another president who's thinking about being in McKay today. We had a chat on the phone this afternoon or a Zoom call before I came here.

And we had the same question. It's yes and. Okay. I don't think you can't be a great. So I look at it a little bit differently. I don't think you can be a great leader if you can't lead yourself. And if you can't lead yourself, it means you have to be looking internally. You have to be your own coach sometimes, but you also have to be your own challenger.

And you have to be dealing with your stuff and emotionally intelligent and empathetic, but also supportive of yourself, not a hard ass. So leading self is part of it, right? And loving self. Okay. The other part is then leading team. teams, leading other individuals, what I'd say direct reports and leading teams. And that's different.

And then the other level of it is if you desire it is leading organizations. So the leading self and others is really important. Some get into the leading teams and some get into leading organizations and there's different skills and there's common skills and attitudes. But probably the commonality is if your heart's right, you can do all four. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Love it. Let's bounce out of leadership a little bit, and let's go into maybe just a little bit about real estate, because you know real estate so well, and a lot of our listeners are realtors. I remember you're on one of my stages on Realtor Collective, and I asked you this question. I think this is really, really good right now for the time we're in. And I talked about the cycle of real estate. And we can talk about the cycle of what Gina Wickman thinks as well. He talks about 10-year cycle.

We used to often think about seven-year cycles in real estate. And I asked you that question. He said, no, no, there's a different cycle happening. And you mentioned three-year cycles. Well, the whole world's speeding up. So there's times where I think there's all these cycles occurring at once, kind of like the universe and the planets, but there's super cycles that come along. So 20, 21, 20.

2020, 2021, 2022 was a super cycle. Yes. Everything that happens in a 10-year cycle, like you go rapid to boom, bust price appreciation, you go to that sort of hit the ceiling acceleration, you go to deep decline. We bottomed out probably in 2022 or so. And so, but that all happened in a condensed period of time. And, yeah, Gino's thing I do agree with the real estate is that, you know, I always used to tell people in a good market, I'd say things to the Fifth Avenue staff like,

save some money. this doesn't last forever. Don't start adjusting your lifestyle to how the market is in 2021. And we all do, though. I know. At least I told them. It's so hard. It's kind of like when my kids are each born.

My wife didn't like the fact that I sort of muttered in the maternity room. Life's not fair. Don't say it didn't tell you. That's one of the first things I said to my kids. Weird. So that whole idea that saved some money, but also tell them, and it's probably good for realtors to know, is that as well, when the market's that bad and you can get down on yourself,

you need to tell yourself, I'm not as bad as I think I am. And when the market's hot, you have to remind yourself, you're not as good as you think you are. Yes. Right. And so those little checks and you're not as bad as other people will tell you when it's hot. But the other super cycle we're going through is think about the government an intervention in this industry, which is driving the super cycle.

Wow. Like, you know, in BC in particular, right? Like the common conversation, and maybe it's good that we're not having it anymore, but, you know, 10 years ago, if we did a drinking game every time somebody said double end in a realtor meeting here, we'd have a problem. You don't hear that anymore. No. Right?

It's like, who do you represent now? Yes. So some of that's not bad, but now I wonder about, like, is it? government going to take away, like, are the boards even going to have a usefulness in the future? Is the government going to just basically overrule them? I've said this before. We have ICBC. Yeah.

We're going to have RCBC, Real State Corporation of British Columbia, and they're going to eliminate maybe even brokerages. Like, I'm wondering about it. Yeah. This is that crazy. You know, you never know. So, again, the long-term cycle, the super cycle is this government intervention and the things we've been through.

So you just have to be so much more adaptable these days. And we actually don't know how long the next cycle will work. Right. Right. Like one of the things that we have not enjoyed is any kind of stability. Like when the market, 2016 to 17, when it's awful for purchasers too. Right. And like when we're all doing well and the seller's feeling like he got it,

but the seller's not the next guy down the street's not always trying to get 50 grand more. When the buyer has a bit of time to make a decision. when we're all getting paid and we're all happy, but we can still take a vacation. 15 to halfway through 18 felt like that. And then as soon as it speeds up, the faster it goes up, the faster get ready for it to fall. That's the super cycle now,

is these accelerated kind of waves and get ready. When it starts going up like that, right? It's almost like I have somebody very dear to me in my life who is bipolar. And as they've learned to identify it, and study it and not hate it, but kind of embrace it. They've learned the power of understanding it and how it manages. But one thing that he used to say is that they pay attention to not getting too high, right, because then they crash and not getting too low, right,

because then they can't get out of it. So they stay in there. I think that's a good metaphor for if it starts getting too hot. Like we all kind of knew at the end of 2021, even though our business plans didn't reflect it for 22, this is not sustainable. No. No. And I mean, I've been a little over three decades now, so I've seen a number of cycles.

But every cycle seems to be more of a super cycle. It's almost turbocharged. Yeah. And, you know, gosh, in the early 2000s, when the market kind of took off there, I remember multiple offers. But a multiple offer was a full price offer, and it had only a couple of subjects. Yet. Today, or, you know, in the 2021, you know, multiple offers situation was 10, 15, 20 offers at 10% over list and no subjects. Like it was, it's just. See, we like it in the moment, but we didn't realize that each one of those transactions was breeding the last two years. And what I find is those up cycles, right? They're three times as short as the down. cycle. Yes. Right? Like look at like I don't think we expected 2022 to be as bad as it was.

No. And then we didn't expect 2023 to be worse. This year ain't much better, but there's a little bit of hope on it. But the last time we probably had a three year down cycle like that was probably 10, 11, 12. Yeah. Maybe our end of 10 post-Olympic euphoria. So it was probably closer to 11, 12, 13. And mid-90s was pretty tough too. Now how are you doing though with that is like do you find as you get older, this is my third or fourth one, including global. Did they wear on your soul more each time? No. Good.

Not for me anyways. No, but, okay, but that's important because you're doing something to internally resource yourself to remain resilient. But there are a number of agents probably questioning whether they should continue because they're exhausting themselves in it versus changing that mindset to. Well, yeah, that's a great question. I think it's mindset. It's also understanding that these cycles will come and preparing your financial livelihood for that too.

So whether that's creating other income sources, other income streams, or just knowing that there's a day that's coming that's going to be reckoning and you better be prepared for it. Do you have enough put away to weather it? Now, I've also got some more stories of watching other managing brokers, not mine, but others, that were kind of like old Xerox sales managers. they wanted all their agents heavy in debt because they had to grind it out. Have you ever seen that? Yes, I have. You better go buy something. You need some debt because I need to get motivated.

Yep. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't fit into return on life. That doesn't, no, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. It's true, yeah, but it's, yeah. So do I think my outlook for the real estate market, at least the resale market, as I think we're going to, I think we're going to get in another period again.

of three or four years where it's going to be relatively stable and hopefully there's enough new supply that we don't see again that short-term acceleration of price appreciation and everybody hits the ceiling and then we're all stuck again. But I do have a more positive outlook today of the next three years, even though most of my income isn't going to come from per transaction

is going to come from helping people build organizations that do transactions. Yeah. Fantastic. Let's skip over now to return on life. When you hear return on life, what comes to your mind? What does that mean to you? And has, I think it's changed probably significantly in the last year to two years what that means to you.

Yeah, it hasn't. It hasn't. So when I heard the term, I love it first of all. And it reminds me a couple of things. And knowing we were going to talk this week, I was thinking we had our adult children away for the weekend with their part. And I was thinking a lot about that when we were having a chat around dinner one night. And our kids were talking about this or that. And then they all just kind of said they're all in their 20s that,

that it's really about people, isn't it? Like about our family and other people. And that's the only thing that's not empty and meaningless. Because even if you make money, you can be empty and meaningless. Mark Belling used to say that to me all the time. I said, for a guy who's never read the Bible, you sure quote ecclesiastes a lot. Because he'd always say, it's empty and meaningless, little Scott. The other day, we're not curing cancer.

and cancer. We're not, you know, we're making burgers. So, but it was funny. So return on life. One of the things, though, that it does remind me of is the importance of significance versus success. But I remember people getting to their 50s and preaching this to me when I was in the 30s. And the part that I didn't like about it was, there's no guarantee I'm going to get to my 50s or 60s. So I've actually believed in the importance of return on life since I was in my 30s. So because I said, like, there's no guarantee. Like if I do all this work to then help other people and give in my 50s and 60s, that's better than not.

But I wanted to do it along the way because I never assumed I was going to see my 50s or 60s. So it's not a new concept, but it's an affirmation, but there is a new part of it that is changed. So love return on life over ROI. That doesn't mean ROI is not important. But it's perspective, right? the other one that the L means life for you but what is the L means life for you but what it's meant for me the last couple years and it's one of my values and I think it's underused in business and I don't mean used in a negative way but I actually think about that as return on love or return of love right so to me when I hear that

I think of love and I think that's a very interesting way to show up every day. Right? Like if you show up every day for your client that you've listed their home or for that and you just decide at the doorway that you're going to show up in love for these people, I don't mean romantic or creepy love. I mean genuine, right, love and care for the well-being of the person. It's transformative. A, it accelerates the trust level because they can actually sense it on you.

Yes. When you show up in love. And by the way, that doesn't mean that you have to go coast to coast. with a puck either. No. It's you start it and you pass it off to somebody else that can then take it the next level for them. It's just bringing a group of people together to help them.

Right. But exponentially, imagine in an office if five or six people show up and come back to the office, right? And they show up in love. The broker starts to feel it, right? And so to me, that return on life is the transformative effect of creating business relationships and communities and families that are more.

loving because that stuff is a legacy that will live way beyond. Yeah, I still want money because I'd like to leave each of my kids. Return on life is giving each of my kids an opportunity to own a home and maybe not have debt I had. I have to be careful, though. Okay? Because the chicken story, I've given a few of my rich clients. They said, well, how come your kids still have a work ethic even though you've done reasonably well? And I said, because I understood that when the chicken is breaking out of the shell,

if you try to help it, its lungs don't fully form. So you have a deformed chicken now. Now, it might be driving a range rover or something, but it's still a deformed chicken. So in other words, a lot of people came here, struggled, became successful, and want to spare their kids all the struggle, and they don't realize that it was the struggle

that actually made their good character. So we have to give our children things, but not take away opportunity for them to develop their character. And usually that's through struggle. That's the immigrant mentality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But we, you know, if you, like I want my kids to not have to worry about, like, if I could do it, but they're set up. They don't need it. Like, they'll figure it out without it or they'll reduce what they want. But that return on the ROI part for me is not about me, right? It's about leaving enough money behind and for some charitable things. But the ROI for me is also, I've got to be doing that now and we've been doing that my wife and I since we were first married. that's always a priority for us to give in different ways.

And we don't talk about it a lot. But I think it's important just to know that that's, but. I love that. I love that. Yeah. That's really nice. Really appreciate that. We do struggle, though.

I mean, we as humans do struggle with balancing that all and finding either the balance of enough money or not enough money, enough time, and not enough time, enough love, enough time with our loved ones and all that. Has there been anybody in your life that has mentored that? Because I see this in you. I see this you. Is there anybody that you would say you've got a mentor, a coach, somebody that's really helped you with that?

I have done a lot of coaching over the years. I have had a therapist a couple critical times that, yes, I would say that that person came along at the right time. Thanks for sharing that because a lot of people, wouldn't go there, right? I'm glad that people are starting to see it more like coaching with mental health coming out of that because I probably had to keep that pretty quiet

the first time I went so people wouldn't think that I was off or crazy or all those hurtful words. But I have had that in my mind. I thought you're crazy, but yeah, but that's crazy, crazy good thing. But my point is I still have, I still study a lot about that and understand how to heal from trauma and stuff.

So, so some, of the people I've written around that, but I have had a therapist. But the funny thing is, only recently do I, did I have actually had a coach? And I have a gentleman that somebody offered me when I went to McKay, they said, would you like a coach? We'd like to, for fun part of your coaching. So I said, well, yeah. So I have a coach who's in London, England, who zooms with me once a month, and it's just about me. And it's been fantastic. And so I was feeling crappy this week and really discouraged and I couldn't figure it out and feeling a lot of pressure. And as much as I know mindset and heart state, sometimes it's hard to get out of it.

Even though I know. It's still, I was just in a funk. And so I met with him this and he just showed up and he helped me understood that there's this fine line of performance, okay? And tension. Okay. And so you need a certain amount of tension or stress to generate optimal performance. But there's a point where that line crosses. And in my life, I call it self-generated pressure where there's diminishing return. And what he helped me realize was I have put myself under too much pressure. And that's why I'm not happy that I'm expecting to be ahead of where I am. And I haven't given myself permission again to be new at something and to learn.

Like, why do I need to be, have three years of expertise when I'm four months into something? Like, one of the things I'm doing is new to me, not totally new. But that took the pressure off. So some of it, having a coach like that to just, he didn't say it straight up, but he asked enough questions that he helped me do the right conclusion that, why am I putting myself under pressure? Like, I want to perform. I don't mind that stress.

But this is not healthy for me. Like, so I don't know if other agents do that too. It's that you're a hardest on yourself, right? It's not a managing broker expecting you do more, but you're showing up every day grinding through it when maybe you need to relax a little bit. Well, and that reminds me, the Olympics start next tomorrow. They kick off tomorrow.

And these athletes spend four years training, doing everything in their power to get on the podium four years. And we're not prepared to put four years to get on the podium. We want it today. then sometimes they have to do the hardest part is they put four years in and they get in the boat and they start rowing and they pull their shoulder and they're out, they're injured and they have to learn to live with that kind of disappointment. That's not a bad thing.

It's just not what they expected. So that's the other thing is trying to learn how to, from coaching that I've received. Now I've also had some really bad examples and I won't get into those, right? But I've been able to say, okay, we'll do the opposite. Yeah. Right. So, so, but I think that, like, for instance, I didn't grow up really with a day-to-day father. So that's been tough. So because, as I said to my son sometimes, I'm making it up as I go. There was no man in the house. Right. I don't have a frame of reference. Like, and my frame of reference of original, like Bill Cosby, well, that didn't work out so well right now. So it's kind of disappointing. We were joking about that in the pool and the weekend. It was like, yeah.

Yeah, that kind of, you know, like your hero let you down there. Okay. But a lot of people today, a lot of young people, don't have a father figure or a mother figure. Like something, you know, that's just common. You know, 50% of marriages end in failure. If you put it out there, you're looking at. That's when I wanted our listeners here. There's always somebody that can be that father figure, that mother figure.

And that's the kind of stuff that I think sometimes we don't understand that it wasn't meant to be that way. And it was that way. and, you know, I'm working a lot on healing from that stuff, right? Like, just processing that, you know, okay. Like, my father and I have a good relationship right now, although he's 84, and I feel like more like I'm the dad and he's the son now. But, yeah, like, so, but I wonder now, what will that be like for my sons? Yeah.

Because they had a father, right? And I remember one time, like one of these little habits I love in the journal is periodically, We talked about 10-year thinking, but I've been doing this before, didn't know it until I read it now. But I will write on my journal, right, the people that I love, like the closest to me, and I'll write their age today, and I'll write their age 10 years from today. So the first time I wrote 75 next to my dad, we booked a trip to St. Andrews to go play golf. And I said, changing in the guard, I'm paying for everything, okay? And we're bringing my half-brothers 40, okay? Fantastic trip.

Wow. Okay. The first time I wrote 22 next to my oldest boy, 12, and I was traveling a lot. I was living in Dubai a week a month. I was on planes a lot. And I remember sitting on a plane. And of course, when you work for those companies, you're treated well, but you work your butt off. So you fly business class, big deal. You get off the plane and you go to work. It doesn't matter whether you've been up 14 hours, right? But I wrote 12 and 22 next to him, and I knew within months I needed to quit that job. And so from 12, to 22 or four, well, the next 10 or 11 years, I wasn't, I hardly traveled. I was home more. I was there. I was managing our hockey teams or baseball. I was doing that while I was away, but I was probably more present with them the last decade. Could we have made a lot more money? Yep. Could we, they all have houses and cars right now, yeah, but they wouldn't know their father. Right. And they wouldn't have been fathered. And my job was to bless my kids. And I don't mean just with stuff. I mean with affirming who they are as men.

Yeah. This has been a really good exercise for me too. I've just gone, okay, I'm going to be 61 in fall. The average age, let's call it, ramp up a little bit. I'm going to live to probably 90 anyways. Maybe. Yeah, with the extent, yeah. Whatever. But I have basically 30 more Christmases.

Yep. 30 more child birthdays. What am I going to do with those? It's only 30. That is fantastic that you do that. I've learned that with my parents aging, that every time I see them, it might be the last. time and that I think over the, if I see them twice a year, I got six more times.

So when I'm there, I better be present. Yes. I can't be there all the time. I get it. But when I am there, at least be present. That's awesome. Hey, let's finish this off with the speed round. Okay.

A little bit of a speed round. So, first question, text, talk, email, or in person? In person, then text. Okay. Because usually my in person, I'm pretty intense and pretty focused on the other person. So I got no words left, so the text will help me because I can answer that. The voicemail phone thing is kind of draining to me. So it's either text me or let's sit down.

Okay. And Zoom's kind of faced, little in person. Yeah, yeah. For me it is. I don't mind it. I'm good with it. Yeah. Okay.

Audible or book? Audible, and if it's really good, I buy the book. And then I do that too. I do that too. Yeah, start with an audible. Oh, man, I've got to get the book. Yeah. Yeah.

Home-cooked meal, Uber Eats, fine dining, or picnic on the beach. Oh, I know what my wife had answered to that. Picnic on the beach? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I love that that she has that in her and playfulness, and I'm hoping, I married her,

hoping I'd kind of get that. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will. But I'm actually, my first answer to that, strangely, is change. It would be home-cooked meal. because of what that, but I want to help with that and be part of that. So that's, and we're all like my wife's and a couple of my sons are amazing cooks. So our home cooked meals are pretty good, right?

If they were crappy, I'd probably say fine dining. Plus, I find, I don't know. Maybe we're spoiled, but I find fine dining is kind of overrated. It's overrated. Yeah, it's like, man, like how many times you go to a restaurant, maybe all those years of business travel, you could have what you ever want. It's like, bar's pretty high if we're going to do it. I still like to go to Gotham once in a while and have nice wine and steak, but also I'm not cheap, but I go, I could have the same bottle of wine at home and a bigger steak and I get to cook it and I don't have to take it Uber home.

That's right. Yeah, so. Okay. Are you into music? Yes. Who's your favorite band? Do you have a favorite band? That's a really good question because I don't.

But music for me is very much a memory-based thing, but I can tell you one who became one. who became one of my favorites that surprises the hell out of my kids. It was a rapper who, a young guy, super talented since he was in his teens, and he had, you know, essentially he passed away at an unexpected age. And a lot of the NFL's, and I'm big into NFL fans were into him. And when my, for some reason, when my buddy passed away, this rapper's music was just, like speaking to me.

And so it was a young guy named Mac Miller. And so I still listen to him all the time. And so old guy sitting there listening to Mac Miller or Logic and stuff. And so, you know, it shocks the younger staff sometimes when they put something on. I know what it is, right? I like to mess with him. Awesome. Last question.

Bit of a trick question. If you were a scratch and sniff sticker and I rubbed your shoulders, scratch your shoulder, what would I smell? That question changes over time, doesn't it? It does. Probably a time where to have been Captain Morgan Spice rum, but I don't think that's the answer today. What would you smell?

It's a really good question. I think you'd probably smell home. I like that. I've never had that answer before. That's an awesome answer, home. And our homes all have that unique smell. Yeah. Love it.

Scott, what a great interview. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for watching. I know, by the way, last thing, Marcus Buckingham's love and work, one of his indicators is you know when you're doing something

you are great at and you love what you are great at this and you love it when the time goes by fast. Did this feel like five minutes? It did. It did to me too. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for that.

Thanks, Scott. Thank you for watching. Return on Life. We've got this great, great guest that you've just had the privilege of learning so much from. Stay tuned for other great episodes. Thank you, Scott. My pleasure.