Know Thyself - E107 - Swami Chidananda: “I Quit Wall Street, Became A Monk & Found The Key To Happiness”

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Swami Chidananda, a Vedic monk, shares his insights on the secrets to finding happiness and discovering one's spiritual purpose. He describes how he made the decision to become a monk, how it changed him, and advice he has for anyone questioning their own path. He creates a distinction between monk-hood and being a householder, revealing that inner-renunciation and spiritual purity are not limited to ashram life. Throughout the episode, Swami Chidananda discusses the importance of aligning one's thoughts, emotions, and actions with the higher purpose of existence. He emphasizes the need to cultivate inner peace, self-awareness, and and a life that reflects your true dharma. He also shares practical tips and insights that you can apply in your daily lives to enhance your overall well-being and spiritual growth. By drawing from the rich heritage of Vedic wisdom, this video offers a unique perspective on the path to happiness and self-realization. André's Book Recommendations: https://www.knowthyself.one/books ___________ 0:00 Intro 1:31 The True Path of Spirituality 6:52 Is Suffering Necessary to Wake Up? 9:55 Finding True Happiness Through Acceptance 13:47 Cultivating Clarity of Mind to See the Truth of Reality 19:12 Importance of Like-Minded Community 23:12 From Businessman to Monk 26:52 Being a Householder vs Monk 29:49 The Reality of Renunciation  33:51 Finding Our Own Unique Spiritual Path 36:58 How One Small Act of Love Changes the World 41:24 Discovering & Living Your Dharma 52:50 Navigating the Material World: The 3 Gunas 1:03:01 Awakening Spiritual Siddhis 1:07:17 His Lineage: Cultivating Sincerity Over Dogma 1:24:28 What Happens to Us After Death 1:31:00 Essence of Enlightenment 1:38:38 Where Most Get Stuck in Spirituality 1:48:10 Pitfalls of the Spiritual Path & Ego  1:59:50 Conclusion ___________ Swami Chidananda, holding the distinguished title of Swami, was initiated in the Hari Bhakta Vedic Lineage by his Guru, Paramahamsa Vishwananda. Before entering the spiritual path, Swami Chidananda had a successful career as an investment banker and entrepreneur. Now, he uses his experiences to convey the ancient Yoga Systems in a relatable and accessible way for those seeking to reconcile Western and Eastern philosophies.  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swami_chidananda/?hl=en Podcast: https://www.swami.love/pathofaswami 2025 India Pilgrimage: https://www.justlovepilgrimage.com ___________ Know Thyself Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ Website: https://www.knowthyself.one Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKg Listen to all episodes on Audio:  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927 André Duqum Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/

At the end of the day, you can win the rat race, but you'll still be a rat. I was very much materially oriented. I was becoming more successful, but I was not tangibly becoming happier. See, this is the issue. Success does not breed happiness when we're in the state of the ego. And so then that whole process made me go on a journey. I went to India, and I met my spiritual teacher. So many people think being spiritual means you have to be a monk or a nun.

No, there's such a beauty. of living in the world and doing your duty, but doing it from love. Dharma protects those who protect it. And so I tell people, if you want to be successful, there's three things that I would recommend. You never know what your potential is, because the mind, unfortunately, limits your greatness. Our greatness comes when we are attuned to the will of the divine.

If you live a life of love, life will always make sure everything's taking care for you. Hey everyone, welcome back to know thyself. Today, I am excited to be sitting down with a spiritual educator and monk, who has really devoted his life to the study of spiritual scripture, the embodiment of that their wisdom, and supporting others on their inward journey. Ever since we connected, just a few months back, I've just really loved our conversations, and I'm just excited to share a recorded one with you all today.

So Swami Chittanah, thank you for being here. Thank you, Andre, for having me. Looking forward to our conversation. Yeah. I like to dive right in, actually, with just like a high-level, simple, question, which is, what is spirituality? Well, you know, spirituality is really helping us to understand who we are and to really unlock our full potential. Because a lot of times, you know, people will talk about spirituality as becoming enlightened or feeling unconditional love or being at peace. But see, these are very sort of abstract viewpoints. What is enlightenment? It's hard for our minds to even understand what that

means. And so for me, whenever I speak with people, whenever I give talks, I always say there's one thing that we've all felt, and that is actually fear. We've all felt fear in our lives, and we can all understand that feeling in our body when it arises. And so when we're in that fearful state, we're overcome with emotions, and then we become confused about how to do our duty. And so we take an action based on, let's say, a limited gratification, which will over the long term bring more suffering in our lives. So we're very afraid. We want to remove that fear, so we take a very hastful decision. Or we freeze. We become like an ostrich when being attacked takes their head and puts it in the sand, that in hopes that nothing attacks it.

That's hilarious. You know, that's usually how we operate when we're in fear. And so the real thing about spirituality is about becoming fearless. Because when we become fearless, we have more clarity. When we have clarity, we take better decisions in our life. So all of that other stuff, enlightenment, love, those things will come. But if there's anybody out there who's saying, you know what, I want to. operate from a space of fearlessness and spirituality is for them.

So what do you feel it really takes for somebody to decide they want to devote themselves to going on a spiritual path? Because like you said, we all do experience fear. I feel like a lot of times this notion of spirituality or spiritual people is kind of like for just quiet renunciates who don't have this really tasteful experience of life and their humanity and I've come to experience spirituality as a means as the path for becoming on fire for life. And so, yeah, when you look at the spiritual path and someone's shift to be able to go and walk on that path, what do you see is what ignites that for most people?

So, you know, we say that spirituality, there's only really two ways to walk the spiritual path. It's either grace or suffering. So we've suffered so much in our lives where we look at ourselves and we see. say, you know what, I have to change. I have to do something different. I can't continue to live this way. So unfortunately, 99% of people take that path of suffering. They've gone through some really intense moments in their lives and they want to look at life in a different way. Then there's a few that come to it because of grace. So in Sanskrit, grace is called Crippa. So the literal translation means just to inspire.

So grace is anything that inspires us to transform, to be lit on fire, as you put it. And so I found that it's either grace or suffering. And grace comes in many forms. It can come in the form of a book, of a teacher, of listening to a podcast. There's so many different ways that grace can come in our lives that inspires us.

So I'm sure there's so many people that listen to your podcast and say, you know what, I want to change. That's grace. That's that catalyst. So for me, it's either grace or suffering. Obviously, grace is a better way, and that's why we're here, right? To give modalities that helps people to transform without going through that avenue of suffering.

But either way we get to that goal or to that, I would say, starting point of wanting to walk the spiritual path, of wanting to become fearless. I find that in my own journey and yours and many people who start to walk on the spiritual path that usually originates in some sort of inspiration, whether it's through their own experience or watching the experience of others. Oftentimes our own experience where the second one where it's suffering, born out of realizing that whatever is happening within me mentally, physically, spiritually is not a pleasurable experience of life. and the myriad of different ways in which life shows us that we are not living in alignment with our Dharma, with our purpose, with how we can be vibrant. And the other option is, like you said, the grace where we, you know, meet individuals

that hold a certain level of light within them that I know in my path has been so inspiring to realize what's possible. It's like a reference point for somebody's happiness, fulfillment, presence, that maybe you didn't have the experience of otherwise and didn't know was really possible. And so when we look at both

and you see the suffering part of things, in many ways do you feel like it is necessary and it is part of life that many individuals will have to suffer to come to the realization that they do need to go on a different path? So I would say it's not necessary, but unfortunately that's the path most of us take. Because you see, when everything is going well for you,

what happens is that the ego believes I am the doer. I am doing this. I am responsible for all of these great things that are happening to me. So we put the ego on a pedestal. And so when the ego is on the pedestal, it's all about gratification of the senses, all about attachments and expectations. And real spirituality can't root in that. There needs to be a sense of humility. There needs to be a sense of we're all connected. There needs to be a sense of this deeper feeling that there's actually no difference between me and you. In the Bhagavid Gita, Krishna says there's no difference between a dog, a dog eater, a priest, and a person who's just working on the street. Inside, the Atma exists eternally for all of us.

But the ego does not allow us to perceive that, especially when things are going well. And so when things start to break down, what happens is that there's a feeling of humility and understanding, you know what? Maybe I cannot control everything in my life because we know. We walk out on the street. You could be hit by a bus. Tomorrow we can have cancer. Who can control that?

And so when that ego is hit, when things go out of our scope of control, we start to awaken to maybe there's something higher than just my limited understanding of this reality. So many people, they're not able to free themselves from that ego when everything is going great. A little bit of suffering has to sort of jolt them. So I've noticed that most people take that path. Very few have that humility, have that presence of oneness and unity without that suffering coming into their life. So I think when many people come to that realization, in some ways it's the journey of

purification and to develop clarity of mind. Because when you can see clearly and you can feel deeply, a whole new experience of life is born out of that. And as our sensitivity raises internally, I really do feel we need less stimulation and fulfillment from the things we're attached to in the physical material world. Not that the material, the material, not that the material world, these sensory pleasures aren't beautiful and to be experienced, but there is a transcendent, expanded version that includes that and is inherently filled with joy and pleasure and pleasantness from just your own being. And so what do you see the shift is there on the path of purification as you raise our sensitivity? And suddenly happiness doesn't become this thing we need to fight for,

but it becomes kind of the baseline experience of our life. I would say the shift is acceptance. Because when we are in, let's say, the ego state of mind, what happens is that even when we get everything in this world, we're not happy. See, this is the issue. Success does not breed happiness when we're in the state of the ego. Because the ego has a tendency to always want more and more and more. Because ultimately, what we're searching for, as you put it, is happiness. But we're not looking for, you know, my teacher would always say ice cream happiness, which is

sort of it comes and goes, right? It's in the strawberry ice cream. It's in chocolate ice cream. If I don't have chocolate ice cream, then I'm going to get sad. So we're not looking for ice cream happiness. We're looking for eternal happiness. So when we're in the ego, what happens is I find my happiness in things of the world. But what do we know about the nature of this world? It's impermanent. So every time I gain something that I find to be happy, two things will happen. Either I'll lose it because of the impermanence of reality, or I'll start to not receive the same amount of happiness that I once derived from it. And then I will search for something else. So there's never an acceptance of the moment. There's always a search for the next thing that will

make me happy. But when we're in that state of connecting with our higher self, like you said, we enjoy the world, right? It's not that we shouldn't be successful. We're successful. We have all of the things of the world. But we also find an acceptance. And if this is all that life wants to give me, I'm okay with that. If life wants to give me more, I'm also okay with that. See, so it's just a shift in the understanding rather than the reality. I love that shift of the insight into the acceptance of the impermanent nature of reality. That word tan ha, which refers to the Buddhist term that refers to the clinging, which is a more accurate description of like attachment or desire bringing suffering from the First Noble Truth is really, it's insightful to just examine inner life how

when we get things we don't want, it tortures us on the way in, but then when the things we want we have then leave us, they torture us on the way out. Yes, it's actually, there's a term. We say that when we are in the ego and we are going after material gratification, there's two things how we operate. One is called Raga or attraction. So I desire something I'm attracted to. And I strive to go and get it.

The other is called Dwayshah, where I'm averse to something and I desire not to have it. So for example, I get on a plane and it's a seven-hour plane and I'm sitting next to somebody who's snoring. So the Dwayshah is I desire to not sit next to them. So I want to go away. So for most of us, when we operate from the ego, it's Raga and Dwayiaa. It's attraction and aversion. I'm always trying to get what I find attractive and I'm always trying to run away from things I don't like.

And for most of us, we live in that cycle. And whenever it goes against what we desire, we suffer. One of my favorite texts, the first line, is a great way is not difficult for those with no preferences. and that shift, like when you're in one of those two states, you're clinging or you're averse two, you can't perceive clearly. You can't see reality as it is.

You're seeing it as you wish it to be one way or the other positively or negatively. And so the clarity of mind, any insight or tools to be able to consistently cultivate that in our life so that we're not just ping ponging between our likes and our dislikes in life, but we can arrive at the place where we perceive with clarity of mind, like the mirror of our consciousness can be a clear reflection as to the nature of the world around us, which then alleviates a lot of that suffering. Yeah, there's some tools. And, you know, you're just reminding me, it's a funny story about preference. So actually in spirituality, we say that preferences

are okay, but desires is something that we need to overcome. So the difference between the two I'll give you a very simple example. Let's say your favorite cereal is fruit loops. So you go to sleep in the night and you're thinking, I can't wait to wake up and have fruit loops. So I wake up in the morning, I go to the cupboard, and I see the fruit loops are not there. And I look and my significant other has eaten all the fruit loops.

So in that moment, I feel angry and emotion arises. There we know that that is a desire but not a preference. So a preference is I come down and I see that the fruit loops are not there. So I look, they're eating. I'm happy for them. Like, oh, I'm happy they're enjoying the fruit loops. And I just go and I take cinnamon toast crunch. So I prefer to have fruit loops.

But if I don't have it, I'm okay with going with something else. And the reason why we make that clarity is that if we don't have any preferences, then life is not fun. Right? It's good to have preferences. I like certain things. you like certain things. It's okay, but just don't become attached to it. And so I was sharing this story, and I was in Mexico.

And I was saying, you know, takis are like this really spicy food. And I really like takis. But takis is, for me, a preference, not a desire. So I was just saying that. And so people were listening, and I had like three or four continuous workshops. So he was like, oh, Swami likes takis. So every day, people would bring me bags of tachis. Next thing you know, I had like 50 bags of tachies.

And then we were going to another city. So the lady that was organizing was like, Swami, what do we do with all of these tachies? I said, I'll bring them to the next city. So we go to the next city and I go to the hotel. And I told the lady, keep the tachis at your home. Because we're speaking there tomorrow. We'll have it there.

So the next morning I wake up, I come to her home. and I'm really hungry and I look I'm like hey where are the where are the tachis and she's like oh you know my husband last night he had a big party

and you told me how tachis are a preference and not a desire so we started to serve all of the tachis and now they're all gone so in this moment I got super angry and so I knew the tachis were a desire and not a preference so that's usually how

we make the difference between the two yeah I feel like we really can't come to know what's the difference between the two until the absence of it is really there, right? It's easy to assert when you're in an abundance of things. Exactly. But when it's difficult, you know, when things aren't there, you really have to declare who you're going to be in that moment. Yes.

And so based on that story, I would say that the tools that I usually tell people to cultivate to help us to have that acceptance is firstly something called saddam, which is a daily spiritual practice. It doesn't matter what it is, right? Because there's so many different paths, so many different ways. But for 10 minutes a day, do something that centers you, that allows you to become an alignment with your higher nature. So that daily sadhana helps to transform our desires into preferences.

The other is called SEVA, which is selfless service. So every once in a while, do something where you don't expect anything in return. Because so many of us, our minds are situated in a way where I do something for you and I expect something in return. Not just, let's say, monetarily or not just something external, but even an emotional thing. I thank you or you're so great or so sweet. So we always expect something. So when you do save them, you don't expect anything in return. So every once in a while, try and do some selfless service.

And the third is called Sangha or community. Surround yourself with the right community that helps you to transform. Because if you don't have that community, it's very, very difficult to try and walk the path alone. So for example, the know thyself, that's a Sangha, that's a community. People can come on, watch your guest speakers, and be inspired by that.

So if you do some daily saddana, some little bit of sava, and be part of a Sangha, those three things will help us to transform those desires. I love those three and have found them immensely transformational in my own life. And I just reflect on how our culture is so absent from having those as regular parts of our daily life. I do feel like Sanga is such an important one that is often overlooked because there's a difference between friends that are drinking buddies. or you have these, you know, you're essentially keeping each other company based off your own feeling of loneliness, right? And it's just kind of more surface level versus the individuals that

you can share intimate space with that are in alignment with your values, whether it's through spiritual conversation or various different aspects of your life that you find in alignment with. How has that been important for you on your journey? This is a really, really difficult one, to be honest. Because when I first went on the spiritual path, I lived for almost eight years with my spiritual teacher in Germany. And so during this time, I was very much cut off to the world. And so all of my friends that I had before the spiritual path, they kept trying to reach out to me. They're like, oh, we're getting married, Swami.

Come be my best man. Do this, do that. And it was so hard for me to say, no. Because when we're monks, when we're sannyasi's, for the first part of our life as a monk, we need to live in an ashrum and not travel so we can become centered in who we are. So I couldn't go to weddings. I couldn't go be the best man of these people. And it was something that was really difficult. But I had to stay true to myself. And what happened was after all of these years, when I came back to the United States, I reached out to them. I said, hey, I'm back now. Let's meet. So they're like, yeah, I would love to meet you.

So we arranged some time together. And we had a great time. And they're like, Swami, we'd love to see you again next week. And so I said, you know, I'm here in this place. I was in Cleveland, actually. That's where I grew up. I said, I'm there for a little while. So I'll meet you next week.

So we planned, they're like, let's take you to a baseball game. I was like, okay, fine. You know, I don't really care, but, okay, I'll go to a game. So we had planned this trip to a game. the day of the game came, they called me. They said, Swami, we're going to pick you up. Before we go to the game, we're just going to go to the casino. We're just going to gamble very quickly, have some beers, and then go to the game.

And I'm like, no, I'm not going to come. I'm like, what do you mean? You can't go to the casino because you're a monk. I said, no, there's nothing to do with being a monk or not monk. I just don't want to do that. And they're like, well, okay. And I said, if you want to go, I'm not coming. If you don't go, then I'll come with you the game.

and they thought for a little while and then they're like, well, you know what? Maybe we'll just see you another time. So for eight years, they were, Swami, when are you coming back? When will you be my best man? When will you do all of those things? But when the moment came,

they could not spend one day without going to the casino and getting drunk. And so this reminded me because so many people in the world, they have friends, right? And they're afraid to be themselves because they're like, well, if I'm myself, then maybe these friends won't

like me. If I'm myself and tell them I'm not going to drink, maybe I seem like a black sheep. But I always tell people, be yourself, because that will empower others to be inspired by you and then also transform. It might not be your significant people around you, but others will hear of your story and they'll say, well, if Andre is himself, I can also be myself. I don't have to give into that. And so that's one of the things that I found is when you're in these situations, don't be afraid to be yourself. And the right sangha and community will come that's meant to be in alignment with you. I love that. And it rings so true that you do have to, in a way, be in defiance to what has been comfortable and known to you for a new path to unfold, for you to attract new kinds

of friendships where there is that alignment. And And I would just like to back up a little bit about, you know, just with your story and your background of how you arrived at this place, what, now, how you decided to become a monk. So could you just give some context of your story and then we'll go into many other aspects? Yeah, I'll give you a Reader's Digest version. So I grew up in the, I was born in India, but I grew up in the States. And so for the longest time, I wasn't very spiritual. I was very much materially oriented.

and I graduated at the top of my university and I started to go work in finance and mergers and acquisitions. And so as I was working in this field, I became quite successful. But there's a saying, at the end of the day, you can win the rat race, but you'll still be a rat.

And so for me, when I was reflecting on my life, I was becoming more successful, but I was not tangibly becoming happier. And so that had a real big shift in me. And I tried to find that happiness in alcohol, in drugs, in various types of relationships. And none of these things really satisfied that deeper longing. And so many of us have that longing. Actually, every one of us has that longing.

But for so many of us, we don't answer that call. We sort of put all of these material things on top of it and we suppress it. And so for me, I was the same way. But a moment of grace came into my life where a cousin came and visited me and saw how I was living. And he looked at me, he said, you have to change. I said, okay, what do I do?

I said, here, read this book. And he gave me the book, autobiography of a yogi. And I read that book about this great saint named Yogananda who came to the United States about Mavitar Babaji. And it completely changed my life. because what happened was I'd still go out and get drunk, but I would just not find it enjoyable.

And ironically, I would come home drunk, and I would turn off the lights, and I would just sit at the corner of my room with my eyes closed, like feeling or trying to do some meditation. I had no idea about any type of practices. But just the feeling of this got to be more. And so then that whole process made me go on a journey where I went to India,

and I met my spiritual teacher whose name is Parma Hamza Swami Mishananda. You had him on your podcast. And being in a presence of an enlightened master, it really changes your view on life. And in that moment, I started to say to myself, I really want to become fearless. I want to really reach my potential.

I want to love. And so I set these things to my guru. And he said, well, come and, live with me and learn. And so directly from India, I went to Germany and I lived with them for almost eight years. And I never went back to the United States. I never met my family or my friends. And then after those eight years, it's when I came back to New York in the middle of COVID and started to teach. And I had some crazy stories in New York, which I'm sure we'll can discuss as we move forward. So there's got to be, I mean, when you make the big life decision, whether or not you knew it was going to unfold the way it did, you know, a decade later.

But that decision to completely switch life paths is such a courageous one. And I would love for you to just reflect on the different paths between being what is called the householder or monk life on the path to self-realization. and then we can go into some of the interesting dynamics of renunciation. Sure. So, you know, the first thing I want to say is we always say to walk the spiritual path, you have to be a gambler, not a business person. Because a business person does something, and they get something in return. I give you some money, I get something in return.

Transactional. That's it, transactional. So when you're on the spiritual path, you have to be a gambler. You have to put your chips in, and you have no idea what the divine. is going to give back, right? There's no way of understanding with the mind. It's a feeling. A gambler's like, okay, I've seen the situation.

I'm going to put my chips in, and we'll see what happens. And even if that gambler fails, they have the mentality, I'm going to go back and put my chips in again. And that's how it is with spirituality. Sometimes you put all of your chips in, you might fail, it might not work out,

but you've got to keep doing that. And then eventually it pays off. And so for me, I really took a gambler, mentality when I said, you know what, I'm going to just go for it. So that's one thing that's really interesting. And when it came a point where I had to decide, am I going to either walk this path as a householder or as a renunciate, an external renunciate, the feeling in me was I want to walk this path as a sannyasi. So sanyasi means monk in Sanskrit. And that was just a feeling, right?

But it's for everybody to choose which path works for them. Because I've met many, many monks that are completely in the material reality. Phone, nice things, all of this. So externally you're renounced, but what have you actually given up? And I've met many, many householders were way more spiritual than renunciates. Because they live in the world. They do their duty. But they have this perfect acceptance of the will of the divine.

And so, and you know, there's so many great householders, even in the Vedic tradition, Lahra, Maasaya was a great disciple of Mavatar Babaji, the first person to disseminate Korea yoga to the world. And he was an householder. And so it's really about your natural feeling and disposition. And for the longest time in my life, my disposition was, I want to take the external renunciate route. that shift between perceiving renunciation as an internal phenomenon not just an external appearance

which can be an appeal to superiority oftentimes or you know have many different flavors and contrast of experience there in the gita I believe it also says detachment is not having no things but no things having you exactly and so how has that been on your journey of deciding to okay renunciate, but then like the cultivating the sincerity to actually let go of things internally. That's tough. That's really tough. Because, you know, a lot of people, they get actually fed up of the world and they want to run away from the world. And they think going to an ashrum is going to be the solution. And when you have that mentality, you never make it. 99% of monks that take the vows, they don't make it past the first three years

because it's really difficult. And so, you know, I can't reiterate this enough. So many people think being spiritual means you have to be a monk or a nun. No, being spiritual is exactly what you said in the Gita, having this internal state of renunciation, not allowing anything to touch you. The analogy we gave of a lotus in the mud.

So when the lotus grows in the mud, the lotus petals, they're not affected by the mud. The mud easily goes off and it shines. And the beauty of it is because it's in the mud. And so there's such a beauty of living in the world like a lotus and doing your duty, but doing it from love.

So that's a really important distinction to make for people that might be thinking if this is the way or not. So when you become a monk, of course there's so many tests, right? And for me, there's so many, many tests. So one is that I had an infatuation with my hair. I don't know why I just like my hair. And so when I became a monk, I started to lose my hair. You get older, you lose your hair. And of course when we take these vows, we don't care about these things, right? I mean, it's nice,

but it's not something we become attached to. So somebody, someone was like, you know, if you fast for five days, all of your hair grows back. So I'm like, you know what, I'm going to do that. I'm going to grow back my hair. So I start fasting. And then one day my guru invites me for lunch. And I come and I'm eating. I come to lunch with him. And I'm not eating.

So he looks at me. He says, why are you not eating? And I said, oh, Guruji, I'm fasting. And he's like, wow, that's so beautiful that you're fasting. And you're really going into the path. I'm like, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm fasting so my hair grows back. And he just looks at me.

He's like, really? you give up the world and now you're fasting for your hair. He said, if you thought about God as much as you did your hair, you'd be enlightened by now. And so in that way, it's so important on this sannyasi path to always go back to, why am I doing that? So we should not have one foot in both worlds. If you want to be a householder, do that. Focus.

Sometimes it's good to be looking well to have nice hair. to be fit. Also as monks, we try our best to be healthy, but don't get so much into that. So like this, I've had so many tests as a monk to really keep going back to that sincerity. I really think of, and I know I've mentioned to you,

the novel short book, Sir Darthah, which kind of illustrates this man's journey on the path of self-realization and the pull for the world externally, but this inner calling from his heart. and you're speaking to, whether it's gambling or transactional, it's like the difference between the heart and the mind. And you listen to your heart and had faith and trust that this was the path for you.

As we start to listen internally as to what is going to be our path, because for some, a minority, but for some it will be to explore the path of monkhood. The majority will be probably that are listening to this on the path of being in the world as a householder. and can you speak to how it's important not to logistically, transactionally think of what is going to be the right one, but by discovering internally through our heart and listening through that process,

what is going to be our path. Then the, like you said, great sages have lived in the past that have been in the world and been a householder and have large businesses or play sports or in music or whatever it is that they're here to do darmically. But the path for truth and self-realization can be very much so alive. And so how we can stay in the listening of that and then fully commit to whatever path is calling us. So, you know, a lot of it is self-analysis to really look at ourselves and say, hey, why is it that I want to become a monk or a nun?

I keep saying monk. That's synonymous either if you're a woman or a man. So why is it that I want to become a monk? And that has to really resound. If it's more of life is tough, life is hard, I can't live in the world. And that's why I'm doing it. That's not a good place to be. And, you know, we have a saying, especially my guru, he says, when people say, I want to be a monk. And he says, why?

Well, because I don't like being an accountant. And he says, okay, I'll make a deal with you. when you love being an accountant, then you can become a monk. So it's this idea that first love and accept where the divine has put you, because there's something to be learned from that. There's so many beautiful lessons to be learned living in the world that you're not going to get as a monk. And at the same time, there's so many beautiful lessons as a monk,

you're not going to get in the world. So you have to realize, what am I here to learn? What am I here to experience? And from that space, you make a decision. But if you take a hasteful decision, if you take one of emotion, then whatever path that you take, it's not going to last. That's one thing. Another is also destiny.

A lot of times you're meant to walk the path that you're meant to walk. You can download Tinder, Bumble, whatever else. You can swipe through a thousand people. But if you're meant to be a monk or a nun, you're not going to get any yeses. I have no idea how Tinder works, but not going to get any matches or whatever it's called. So in that way, I've also found when it's not meant for you to live in the world,

it's never going to work out. And if it's not meant for you to be a monk or a nun, you will inevitably meet somebody that will make you not want to be a monk or a nun. So it's a combination of self-inquiry, of acceptance, and also understanding the deeper destiny of the Atma and what it's come here to experience.

it really does feel the more that I have conversations on the show and in my own study that there are just many rivers leading to the same body of ocean of our truth and to reflect on what is our own individual path and discovering the authenticity and sincerity of that, you know, and when you look at the many different paths that lead you to the same place and the different types of yoga that we can incorporate, I'd love for you to reflect on that. And, you know, alongside this realization that it's not just what we do in the world, but how we infuse love into our actions and how that can actually transform what we do. And the consciousness in which we do things actually is oftentimes much more important than just what the action is that we're doing. Yes, you know, there's a saying that even one small act of love can have a cosmic impact on this reality. And so many times when we start to go on the spiritual path, we start to think, oh, I need to reach as many people as possible. And that's actually not the best way to move forward. It's more how can I give the most amount of love in whatever way that I'm capable of? And if that means if your Dharma is to be a mother or a father and to raise a child that grows up with these spiritual values, you've changed the world.

And if that means that it's meant for you to be a singer or an actor and to help people in that way, you've changed the world. So one is not greater than the other. It's more just about the sincerity of the action. Even some of the greatest saints, if you see how they grew up, their life, it's not a life where you can say, ah, they did amazing things in the world. For example, Ramakrishna, he's a great Kali Bhaktah or devotee. At the time of his death, no one knew of him. He was just a saint in Calcutta, India, with a few disciples, and nobody knew of. But then as time went on, his disciples, whose name is Swami Vivekananda.

He came to the United States, started to teach. And now most people that follow spirituality have heard of Ramakrishna. So it's not about doing great things externally. it's about doing the small things with love and you'll see how that will have huge reverberating impacts on this reality. Yeah, it's so easy in this culture

to have the Amazon one-day shipping mentality of everything in our life, you know, and you're inviting a deeper trust, faith and patience into how our path will unfold in the way that it will. And yeah, I think we oftentimes, and I've fallen in the trap of this, measuring harmonically my impact in the world with numbers or, you know, how big something is.

And yet, like, you're inviting us to reflect on how it's impossible to envision the ripple effect that can happen when you transform and impact one person deeply. And what that can go on and do for the world is, like you said, it has cosmic consequences. You hit the nail on the head, right? One small act. You never know where that's going to go. And, you know, people listening don't feel like, don't take it that. I also had those moments, especially when I came from Germany to the United States.

I had nothing. And all that my guru said was go. And he said, if you stay clear in what you want, in two years' time, everything will work out for you. If you lose that clarity, you would have just wasted 10 years of your life with me. And so for me, when I came here, it kept going back to my focus on what is it that I'm trying to do here. It's to help people develop a deeper relationship with the divine. And that helped me to make every action that I did. And sometimes those actions were maybe not what somebody in the world would say is the best way to reach the most people and grow.

Right. But it was a feeling. And over time, it worked out. And so when we have that clarity and focus as to why, what we want in this life, and we just keep moving forward, that ripple effect will then maybe, if it's meant to be, reach millions of people.

And if it's not, it's also fine, because either way, you're going to be happy, you're gonna be content. I'm happy either way. If somehow this reaches a lot of people, great. If not, it's also fine. Whoever it needs to reach, it will reach. It really seems though,

as you start to open yourself up to that path, that possibility and trusting in the process of listening to your heart in many ways you could just be explained and distill down to that, you start to get reflections and signals from the world and to like continue to go down on that path. And so when you reflect on what Dharma is and that Gita phrase, which is like when you protect your Dharma as unfolds, it protects you, I really love that because it's like there's a momentum that starts to build towards the light of who you are and what you're here to do just as it can spiral downwards as it does for many. Yeah, it's such, I love that verse. It's in the Upanishads as well. It's, Dharma protects those who protect it. And it's

this idea that if you live a life of love, life will always make sure that everything's taken care for you. And this is something that, you know, I've really tried to live by. For example, I came to the United States and I didn't really know what to do. And so I was looking around and I realized it was the middle of COVID and there's a lot of homeless people that didn't have food, didn't have much. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to make chai. I'm going to make chai. I'm going to take it. I'm going to serve the people. It was like super cold wintertime. So I go to this part of New York City. It's not so good. And I start serving people shy. And all of a sudden, as I'm doing this, this guy comes. And he's like, what are you doing here?

I said, I'm just serving. He said, get out. You're causing too much disturbance here for me. He was a drug dealer. And so he showed his gun. And he said, get out. And so I was like, okay, okay. So I leave next week.

I'm like, you know what? I'm going to go back. So I go back, new fresh pot of chai. And rather go to the homeless people, I go to him, I say, hey, it's cold. You want some chai? He's like, what is chai? And it's like Indian tea. He's like, all right, give me some.

So I gave him some chai and he drinks like, hey, this is pretty good. And then he looks and he's like, who are you? What are you doing here? Like, you know, I'm just a monk. I'm just trying to help some people. And he's like, you know what? From now on, you can do whatever you want here. I got your back.

And so it goes from him threatening my life to essentially saying, serve and I'll protect you. And so that for me is the essence of Dharma. protects those who protect it. Life will always find a way to help us to do what we need to, if we do it from love. It's beautiful. I love that.

That's wild, man. Crazy stories in New York. Yeah. So for people that aren't familiar with Dharma and the way that it's used in these ancient scriptures and how it reflects to how we live in modern life now, what is Dharma if you have to distill it down? So the word karma is very complicated

because it has so many different, let's say, translations depending on context. So there isn't really one way to look at Dharma. Even when you speak about Dharma from a Buddhist lens or a lens of Hinduism, so many different ways. So I'll give you one interpretation of one way that we can contextualize it. And for me, Dharma is whatever we're doing

that is being done without the same thing, coming from the ego. So when we do our Dharma, we're living in the present moment and we're acting from a space of love rather than a space of attachment. So when we do that, what happens is that we don't entangle ourselves with this reality. Because when you do something and you are from the ego, you entangle, right? You find ways where you go into fear or emotions and you're you're going to fear or emotions and you don't do it properly. That's not Dharma. Dharma is I have something I have to do.

I do it from love, and if I do it, it will help a lot of people. So I'll give you an example. Let's take Justin Bieber, right? His duty is to be a singer. Now, if he does it from a space of the ego, he can create a bunch of entanglement and karma. He could maybe inspire people to go get drunk or do drugs.

Or Justin Bieber is doing it, so I'm going to do it. Entanglement, right? But if he shifts it and say, you know what, I'm going to embrace this duty and turn it into my Dharma, then he starts doing it and saying, hey, maybe do some meditation. Hey, go and do this. I don't know if you would say that, but go and do this. We'll help you with your relationship with yourself. Now you're unentangling.

Now you're giving love to this world. So that's how I would define Dharma, anything that we do from the space of the heart. So action that's coming from a place internally that isn't just preoccupied with self-personal gain. And, you know, I think a lot of people think, oh, somebody who has a lot of success or has a huge podcast or is really impacting a lot of people, they're really in their Dharma. Whereas somebody who maybe was in a position they were 10 years ago, which was studying spiritual scriptures, just meditating in the room 30 minutes a day, connecting, networking, meeting people, expanding. They're also in their Dharma at a different stage of development in their own process and journey.

So any thoughts you have on how Dharma evolves as we evolve? And it's, again, that quality of what we're doing, not necessarily the scale of it. Yes. So there's a beautiful verse in the Bhagavit Gita that says, Krishna says, it's better to do one's Dharma imperfectly than to do the Dharma of another perfectly.

Because the Dharma of another, is filled with danger. So what he's saying here is that life has put you where you need to be. And Dharma means be in the present moment. Whatever life gives you, try your best to do it. Even if it's not the best, even if externally you're not so great at it, that's where you're at. And so try it to do it with love. And then through time, it will evolve.

But if I sit here and I say, you know what, I can do what Andre does so much better. I can do it much better than he can. And I'm thinking about you, rather than accepting my Dharma as a Swami, then two things happen. One is I'm not in the present moment. I don't learn to understand what I need to do. And I'm not able to grow, right? And so many people do that. They look at others and say, I should be doing what they're doing.

But in reality, if it's meant to be, it will be. Focus on your life now. Try your best to do your Dharma now. and then life will show you and open up so many doors for you. But if you don't embrace it now, you'll never be ready for your other Dharma when it comes into your life. I think at this time where comparison is so heavy throughout society, it's easy to see somebody at the top of their mountain and be like, I'm going to start climbing that mountain or even at times on the other side being paralyzed

because of how far in the journey they are ahead of you comparatively, whereas you're inviting the reflection to know, just you don't know what your mountain's going to look like, but there is a path where you can take one step in a direction. And I've always loved that analogy of like a car driving from Los Angeles to New York at the nighttime. You can't see the full distance. You can see where the headlights illuminate, which is like 100 or 200 feet ahead of you.

And then as you get further, you see further. Yeah, and you never know what your potential is, right? Because the mind unfortunately limits your greatness. The greatness comes, our greatness does not come in the ego. Our greatness comes when we are attuned to the will of the divine. Things that you can never imagine will open up for you if you have that acceptance and that consistency of moving forward. Things that you couldn't even dream of 10 years ago.

And so I tell people if you want to be successful, there's three things that I would recommend. And these are kind of paradoxical to how the world teaches it. So if you want to be successful, the first thing I would share is be happy when others succeed. Because when you're happy, what are you telling the universe? I'm happy for them and I'm also open to receiving the same. But if I'm not happy for them, internally I'm saying, I don't want that. universe whatever they have don't give me because I'm not happy for them right so try to be

happy when others succeed the second is accept and enjoy what you're doing now right so that is really important it's this idea of don't think about the future don't think about what's coming learn from where your life has put you now learn to love it and then other things will open so accept and enjoy where you're at. And the third is help others to succeed. And this is the most difficult thing for people. Because when we're in the ego, we have a lack of scarcity. If they succeed, that means I'm going to fail.

So immediately I put my mind in that lack of scarcity, and I'm not open to the abundance of what the divine can do for me. And so when you help others to succeed, you are literally tapping into that eternal abundance, allowing you to, whatever you help somebody with, you get 10 times back. And that's why I always found really, that's why I felt a strong connection with you because from the day that I met you, the question you always asked is, hey, how can this help you? How can this reach more people?

How can I help you to reach more people? And that feeling of how can I help others succeed, that's the secret source of being successful ourselves. That's beautiful. Those are really simple things that we could assert and oftentimes challenge the things to embody. But, you know, I just, I really think that we're so limited in our scope of understanding when we're just operating from the mind. it's like sometimes the greatest blessing would be that your wildest dreams do not come true because our dreams are a recombination of our prior memory and limited if life is going to unfold in a way we can't even imagine that is more beautiful than we conceive of than by nature it has to

come as a surprise it has to come in something that is in the unknown and i think leaving space for that grace leaving space for the openness and mystery is is it really important? And we can still make plans. We can still have a vision of a future that excites us. And then we move in that direction and hold it loosely to where we don't completely abandon any idea of what might come, but we're also holding it loosely to the point where we can be surprised of what may.

Perfectly put. So as we keep diving deeper, what are the three guna's? Because a big theme of this conversation so far is not just what we do, but how we do it, right? and there are certain qualities that we can infuse into any action that we perform in our life. And so I think this is really important for a lot of people to gain awareness and insight on if people don't already know

because it can transform the trajectory of your life goes on by the simple awareness. So to understand the Guna's, first let's define this reality that we live in. So this reality in Sanskrit is called prakriti, or what we refer to as the material universe. And it's made up of the five, elements. So everything in this world is a composition of the five elements. By itself, they have

no energy to it. It's just these five elements that come to life and then turn to dust. Now there is an underlying energy which is called Maya. Maya is an illusionary energy that gives life to this material creation. So almost look at it like a painter who's using the the paint the substance, and then puts together a painting. So the painting gives you a feeling, but the actual substance themselves don't give any feeling. It's only when they're all put together, do you have a feeling towards the painting?

So in that way, it's said that as long as we're in this reality and we don't understand our true self, we're in something called a vidya or spiritual ignorance. And that's because the energy of Maya, as enveloped us, has shrouded our Atma and we're not able to see clearly. So that energy of Maya

then projects out how we interact and perceive things around us. So that interaction and perception is based on three levels. So when we are very much in Maya, very much in the mind, we see reality

in a very gross way, in a very lethargic way. So this is going to be when somebody is very, very violent, when somebody is very, very lazy. And so these types of places are going to be, let's say, like, I would say, war zones, right? So that's a very tamasic energy, a very lethargic energy. The second is called Rajasic. So Rajasic is very active. So you're very passionate. And so these are these. are places like Wall Street where there's a lot of action happening, but all for material gain. So that example would be, I'm walking and I see a homeless person. If I'm Tamaic, I'm going to

try and take the money that the homeless person already has. So I'm trying to do harm to him. Well, the Rajasic person walks by and looks and says, I don't care about you. I don't care if you have money or if you don't have money, I'm going to do my own thing and keep walking. And then the third is called satva. So satva is when we see things in a more peaceful state. So that's like the studio. That's like being in an ashram. That's where you are more calm. You're more peaceful. And you're ready and open to help others. So I walk by, I see this man and I give him some money. So that's more of a satvik reality. So each one of us sees this world in the lens of one of these three energies.

And just to wrap it up in a more, like a story way, imagine a man. And he is going home. And one day he decides to take a shortcut to the forest. So he goes to the forest and it's night and he comes across three robbers. So the first robber goes and says, let's kill him and take his money. The second robber says, let's not kill him. Let's bind him, take his wallet, and throw him in a ditch.

And the third one says, let's not do any of that. We have enough money, let's just let him go. So they have a conversation and they say, okay, let's listen to the second, bind him, throw him in a ditch, take his money. They do that. Then the robbers go their way. A little bit later, the third robber comes back, and I'm so sorry that my brothers did this to you. unbinds him, gives him back the wallet, takes him by the hand, and goes to the exit of the forest and says,

that is your way home. And so the man looks and says, come with me. You are a good person. Why are you in the forest? Come with me to where I'm going. And the robber says, no, no, no, I need to be here with my brothers. I can't go where you're going, but I'm showing you the way. And so that's how we can look at the Guna's, is that we're striving to be spiritual, we should strive to be in a more sattvic energy. Our practices should be sattvic. Our community should be sattvic. Our spaces should be sattvic. And as we do that, we start to purify the mind. And then eventually, we get to a point of enlightenment where we transcend all three qualities and we connect to the pure essence of sat, chit ananda, truth, consciousness, and bliss. This is called Shudda

Satva. That's the purity beyond the guna's. So you use the satva guna to take you out of the forest. And once you do that, you reside in pure, truth, consciousness, and bliss. I love the way you broke that down. Thank you, man. Yeah, the, so the sadvik energy, I think it's important to reflect on how these three qualities are not just, uh, mindsets and ways of operating within life, but are infused into everything within the Maya, within the forests, you know, is the food that we eat and et cetera. So could you give a couple more examples how Thomas, Rajas, and Satva are infused into how we relate and connect with many different aspects of life? So there's two ways that we can look at the gunas. One is fixed,

and one is, let's say, constantly transforming. So as long as prakriti, or material universe exists, everything has a fixed composition and a fixed guna related to it. Okay? That has nothing to do with your external perception. It's just the inherent nature of that particular object in this world. So for example, when you look at the ocean or the mountains, it already has a natural satanic composition. If you go to, let's say, a bar or alcohol, it already has a natural composition. It's not how you reflect to it. It carries that.

So as long as we live in this world of duality, by nature, everything has to have one of these guna's. If it doesn't, then everything would be just stale, right? Yeah, it's like the quality of anything that, like, water has the quality of wetness. Exactly. Anything, any other thing could have a quality of one of these three. And that's what brings variation. Because if everything had the same guna, there's no variation.

What would be the point of this material reality? So by nature, everything has a guna associated with it. Now, when you interact with that guna, two things can happen. If that guna is strong enough, or let's say the object. So let's say alcohol has the object of tamasi guna. Now, when I interact with it, depending on my own natural composition, because each one of us also has a certain composition that we embody. some are more satvic, some are more tamasic, right?

So when I interact with alcohol, that either reinforces my tamasic energy if I'm tamasic, or it brings me down from satva to thomas. So my interaction has an influence on my internal state and framework. So that's why I said we should surround ourselves with satvic things, because that keeps us in a satvic state. Now, every once in a while, if you are very spiritually powerful, you have the ability to transform something that has an inherent guna.

So an enlightened master can take alcohol and turn it to satva guna. But that's only if you've transcended all three gunas. I cannot do that. I cannot transform alcohol into a sattva guna. But an enlightened being can. So in that way, everything has a natural call. composition and our interaction with it will affect our guna's. And every once in a while, an enlightened master can change the very basis of an object

if they have reached a certain enlightened state. So, yeah, I think that's a really important understanding as we can look at the various different things in our life, from the food that we're eating, to how we engage with the marketplace and being a consumer in this world, to the relationships that we have. to see what is the choice that brings more well-being? What is the Satvik choice in this path? And then as you were talking, it brings you to the place that encompasses

and transcends all three. And I met a couple individuals earlier in my path that were extremely Satvic that really exudiate that sense of vibrancy and was very inspiring to me to see what's possible within human consciousness if you purify yourself enough because not many of us,

especially in Western culture, have reference points for what's truly possible within the human experience. Like how blissful, beautiful, poet, spiritual gifts that are just laying latent within your potential, all these things we just are oblivious to, right? We're in that ignorant state. And as we start to go on that path of satva and explore those, how that changes our behavior in the world,

how have you seen it transform your own, personal life and what do you see it unlocks as we start to go on the path and what it reveals to us. Yes, as we start to live a more satvic lifestyle, we access that which is beyond the three gunas. And when you access that which is beyond the three guna's, you have control over this material reality. That's why enlightened beings can manipulate this reality, right? They can manifest things. They can display certain cities or spiritual gifts.

that science or people in the world would not be able to comprehend or even understand. And I've seen with my own eyes people that just don't eat, right? One of the people that I live with for many years in the ashram, he reached to such a level that he just didn't eat food. And he didn't eat for seven years. I never saw me eat any food. I mean, he would drink water. Did you check in on him at 2 a.m.?

Yeah, I would actually, just to reconfirm my own bias. but yeah he never ate and this is possible when you unlock the potential of your mind Krishna says in the Gita the mind can be your best friend or your worst enemy

so the more and more you embody a sattvic lifestyle the more and more you unlock the potential of your mind because when you're Tamasic you're very limited when you're satvic you're open you start to see things differently

and that's based on the choice of food that you eat the relationships that you spiritual practices that you do. And so what happens is that cities start to awaken. But here it's very important to understand. And my teacher told us this. He said many Siddi's will awaken inside of you. But I will keep them locked till the time is correct.

Because if they unlock and you're not fully transcended the three guna's, that will bring up a lot of pride and ego. And we have to be careful about that. Because these cities, while very, very beautiful, they also make us feel great. And they can be distractions. And they can be distractions. And so I've noticed in my life that the greatest city that I have received is just the ability to have a soft heart. Because if you don't have a soft heart, then it doesn't, matter if you can walk on water, if you can move a coconut left to right. None of these things matter if your heart doesn't, it does not become softened. And there's a feeling of feeling the love

of the divine in everything that we're doing. And I go back to Ramakrishna, where he would just speak about that. He said, don't worry about the cities. Soften your heart. Love, experience the divine. If you do that, everything else will be given. So you would teach this all the time. And there was a yogi, let's say a renunciate, he comes. And he looks at Ramakrishna and he says, ah, you speak about love. What is that? You sit and you just speak about love all day.

Look at me. I've worked on myself. I've chanted the mantras. I can walk on water. What can you do? And he looks and he says, and he calls over the maid who has the milk. And he said, hey, how did you get here? And the maid said, oh, I crossed the river.

I live on the other side. He said, how did you get across the river? And she said, I took a boat. So how much did you pay for the boat? And the maid said, a dollar. And Ramakrishna looks and says, you see, what took you 30 years? She did for $1.

So what uses the city if you don't have a soft heart? So yes, things unlock, things open, but people should continue to stay focused on the ultimate goal, which is to realize who you are. not that you can move a coconut left or right. I'd love for you to share, like, what is your specific lineage, and what does that kind of encompass in terms of the path? So the thing is, you know, in the, first of all,

I don't even like using the word Hinduism, because that term almost, when the moment you say it, it becomes almost dogmatic, and it's very much in this day and age based on ritual. So I think when people think Hinduism, they think temple worship, going to and praying to a deity. And that's actually like 1% of this path.

The actual path is called Sanatun Dharma, which means the path towards the eternal truth. And it's also called the Vedic tradition because we follow the tenets of the Vedic teachings. And so in Sanatan Dharma, it is what we call a rhodic tradition. realization model. And so I'll break down what that means. So most of us in the Western world, we follow something called a salvation model. And this has its roots in something called

exclusivity of truth. All the Abrahamic religions are this. Exactly. Exactly. So it's this idea, I have exclusive possession of truth. And if you follow it, you will go to heaven. And if you don't, you will go to hell, right? And you have one life. So choose wisely. So this is salvation model. No pressure. No pressure.

So this is salvation model or exclusivity of truth? And so I always find it funny, right? Because the thing is, if you follow this model, it's not that you're a bad person. It's not that you're trying to convert anybody. But there's literally a feeling inside of you.

If I don't convert you and I love you, you're going to spend the rest of your life if your existence in hell. So imagine that, right? So if I love you, I'm trying to convert to you if I follow salvation model. Because not that I'm a bad person,

because I truly care for you. And inherently infusing that is everyone who doesn't believe what I believe is indeed going to burn in hell for eternity. Yeah, so it's crazy how like you can sit next to somebody who follows this model. And deep inside, they believe you will be in hell eternally.

And they're like, how's your day? Everything good? Do you have a good drive here? You know, so it's such an interesting way of approaching it. Yeah, and I mean, I think within the Abrahamic religions, like there's a lot of people who really follow Christ in a beautiful way that transforms them. And there's oftentimes the biggest thing with Christianity is the Christians, because a lot of them have that salvation mentality where it's, by believing this,

it's like my green card to the afterlife. Exactly. And it's kind of like, okay, my job is done by asserting this belief in a way. Yeah, and that's, thank you for that. The caveat is I've met so many people that have such a deep love for these masters and these beings in these Abrahamic religions

that don't follow necessarily a salvation model. They follow a realization model. But for them, they believe Christ, is the way. And that to me is very beautiful. Right, because he is a way, right? But to say it is the way, you know, it's just challenging. And I invite anybody who is in that position, you know, we've had conversations on exploring the Gnostic origins of a lot of these religions before institutions, kings, individuals have really shifted spirituality into a religion to be able to control people with fear because the most controlling aspect of being able to change someone's, uh,

and how they operate in the world as if they think they're going to burn in hell for all of eternity. Fear. Fear. Controls. That's why from the beginning it was all about fearlessness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Side note. That's the caveat is, you know, in Sanatina Dharma, I can love Krishna and Jesus. In a salvation model, I can love Jesus, but I can't love Krishna.

So people can choose what they want. Who knows? It doesn't matter. So anyway, Sanatan Dharma are our tradition. is there's no exclusivity on truth, and it's a realization model. And the realized model also stems in Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism. They're all following that same sort of umbrella.

And that's why for me, you know, I personally believe when we start saying Hinduism and Buddhism, we separate. When we start saying Sanatan Dharma, we can come together. Because if you read the teachings of the Buddha, nowhere in it did he ever say, I want to create a religion. He was a reformer, right?

And his teachings are beautiful. So I think there's always ways to come together. So within Sanat and Dharma, there's many, many different ways of how we perceive the truth. Some might perceive the truth as having a form and having a dynamic relationship. So the essence has a dynamic relationship with us. Others will say it's formless. It's a void. And the goal is to go into that oneness.

So it's so many different traditions. So I follow a very specific tradition called Vashishtad Veta. It's actually a slight offshoot of Vashitaad Veta, which has been given by my spiritual teacher, Parma Hamsa Swami Vishwananda. And in that tradition, we have this idea that the divine is one and also dynamic. And maybe we can break it down now or later

whatever you feel is best, but that's the tradition that we follow. Yeah, break it down. You want to break it down? Why not? Yeah, sure. Well, so if we want to break it down, then I think there's three components

that we need to focus on. So the first, let's call it Ishvara. So Ishvara is that first principle. It's that first cause. So in the universe, we know that everything is cause and effect. So I do something, it has an effect. That then has a cause, which then creates an effect. So the first cause, the cause of all effects, the first principle, the eternal essence, we call Ishvara.

In other traditions, they might call it Hari or Shiva or Kali or Devi. It doesn't matter. And Ishvra possesses three qualities. Sat, which is truth, chit with this consciousness, and ananda, which is bliss. So it has these three things that it possesses. In the materialist view, would you say those qualities are imbued from the beginning of the Big Bang, for example? Would you say that to start? So the moment the Big Bang happens, all those qualities are hidden.

Maya comes and hides it. But all of those qualities are actually the essence of this reality. And in the essence is only truth consciousness and this. But because of ignorance or avidia, we have forgotten that. So that's Ishfaham. And we say that Ishwar is like an ocean. Okay, so if I were to ask you, does the ocean have form or is it formless? I would say that some people will say it has form and some will say it's formless.

If you go to the edge of Miami or Florida, it takes a form. If you go a bit further, it loses its form. So it's beyond comprehension. It's form and form. That's very important. Also, the ocean is not just water. The ocean is full of life. It's full of these fishes, right? So these fishes make up the entirety of the ocean. So it would not be right to say the ocean is void of life and it's just water. The ocean is defined by its qualities. And those qualities are the fishes. the corals, and so forth. And so Ishfara is defined by its qualities, which is the Atmas.

It says you, me, everybody around, we're all these individual fishes in the entirety of the ocean. So the fish cannot say, I am the ocean. But it can say all there is is the ocean. So you see the slight distinction between the two? I'm not the ocean, but all there is is the ocean.

And the example that we give is of a body. A body is composed of its various qualities. And these qualities are the individual cells. You remove the cells, the body doesn't exist. Without the body, the cells can't exist. So they're codependent. So the Ishvara, the ultimate reality, is codependent with the fish, which is each one of us. And we have an eternal relationship between us and Ishvara.

I hope that's making sense so far for the people that are listening. So now that we've established that, another way to look at it, look at Ishfara and the Atmas, the ocean and the fish, like a red rose. So the red rose,

the quality of the rose is its redness. That's what makes the rose. It's the redness of it. Now, can I remove the redness from the rose? No, it's impossible. If I give you a rose and say remove the red, you could not do it. So in the same way, the red rose is like Ishvara and the Atmas. We're together, you cannot remove one from the other.

And because Ishvah possesses truth, consciousness, and bliss, we as the fish is also possessing. Like you gave an example earlier, you cannot remove the wetness. from the water, in the same way, we can't remove truth, consciousness, and bliss from who we are. Because that's our very nature. That's what we come from. That's what we are a part of, is truth, consciousness and bliss. Imagine that we are eternally in this ocean, having this beautiful relationship with Ishvara, and we're having a great time. But all of a sudden, in this ocean, arises an air bubble. Okay? So the air bubble is part of the ocean. It's not outside of the ocean.

And at some point, the air bubble will pop. It's not going to forever stay. But when you go into the air bubble, what you are perceiving is a lack of water. When you go into that air bubble, what you are perceiving is a lack of truth, consciousness, and bliss. All around you is the water. But for a moment in time, you forget that is the eternal existence, is only true. consciousness and bliss. So the fishes that are in that ocean get drawn into the air bubble. Through the energy we call Maya. So Maya is that illusionary energy that draws the fish into the air bubble. So I go

into that air bubble and for a moment in time, I forget that I am in the ocean and I completely identify with the air bubble. And the qualities of the air bubble are impermanence and duality. Okay? And the example that we spoke about earlier before the podcast was the idea of a virtual reality headset, right? So I'm at home.

Somebody gives me a virtual reality headset. I put it on. What happens? I don't see my surroundings. And then a new reality is projected. So Maya has two qualities to it. One is called concealing and the other is called projecting.

So Maya conceals that we are part of Ishfara. We are part of this oneness. And it projects the air bubble. It projects this alternative reality. Now, if I want to go back to Ishvara, do I need to take a flight from L.A. to India? You just remove the headset. The headset.

Same way, right now we're in Ishwara. Right now, we possess all those qualities of Satshedanaana. right now we're in that ocean. All we need to do is remove the goggles. All we need to do is remove or pop that air bubble. So all of the spiritual practices that we teach and we give is all designed to help us pop that air bubble. And each practice is unique.

Some perceive it more from a devotional standpoint. They'll say, I can't pop the air bubble by myself. I need external grace. So then they go to the form. They'll go to the forms of Jesus or Krishna or whoever and say, please help me to pop the air bubble. And others will say, I possess such a danaana inside of me.

I don't need external grace. Through my own self-inquiry, I will pop that air bubble. That's more Buddhism and Adventism. So we follow a combination of two. We say effort and grace. I have to make my effort. I have to do my self-inquency. and everything that I need is inside of me.

And at the same time, I am reaching out to that eternal essence of Ishvara to come in and help me a little bit. An example that we give is of the Gita, where Krishna is giving Arjuna all of these yoga techniques. You have to do Bhakti yoga, Ghana yoga, you have to do this. And Arjuna is looking, it's like, okay, okay. So Krishna, what are you going to do? You're telling me to do all of this. What are you going to do? And Krishna looks and he says, I'll do the one thing you can't do.

I'll calm the wind. So when you fire the arrow, it will hit the target. So there's parts of things in our life. We can't do ourselves. We cannot do it through self-inquiry. It has to be something greater than ourselves that takes us the final way. So this Veshthhveta is what we call qualified non-dual, which means that Ishvara is all that exists.

and at the same time I'm a part of Ishvara and I have a unique relationship to Ishvara. I cannot say I'm the ocean. I can say all there exists is the ocean. So those three things, Ishvara, Atmas and Prokriti make up the essence of all Sanat and Dharma. And how I relate to these three will be the Vedantic philosophy I follow.

So if I believe that when I pop, the bubble, the fish dissolves into the ocean, the fish was a salt fish. It was made up of salt. So when it goes back into the ocean, the fish dissolves. That's adveeta. That's oneness. I lose all sense of identity, and I'm back into the oneness. Dwayta is when I pop the bubble and I say, I am the fish and there is the ocean. And I have a relationship. with the two, but I am separate from the ocean. So this is Dueta. And then the third is Vishushita, which is like a sponge. So a sponge takes up all of the water, it immerses itself in the water, but also retains identity. Why? For personal relationship. So it says, I am

full of the water, but I retain identity so I could have a dynamic relationship with the divine. I don't want to dissolve. I want to have a play. I want to continue to play with Ishfara. So those are in the simplest terms how we can look at these three. I love all that, man. Thank you.

Thank you for diving into it. It's so fascinating, and I just love understanding the Vedantic philosophy side of all this, that our individuality is encompassed and included by a much vaster consciousness or field of awareness that we're a part of. and that we can very easily become enchanted

in our own air bubble of sensory stimulation in the world that are imbued with the qualities of duality and impermanence like you were saying. And I think we all have moments in our lives where our air bubble gets popped a little bit and we see deeper into the true nature of reality and it's a reference point. It's like I got a little bit of taste of water

and I realized how damn thirsty I was. that's a great way to put it and you're like you know what I want more of that water and you start to become one with that experience in that understanding of Vivista

then what happens as if we are these fishes in these oceans and the illusion of the air bubble pops at the moment of death what happens to who we are in our true nature what qualities do you feel like

if any of our individuality are carried over into another existence, or do we merely drop into the flow of the ocean? And yeah, so what happens when we die, bro? Let's look at the air bubble. Okay, so the air bubble, when you die and you've not transcended Maya, you don't go back to the ocean. You just go to an alternative reality that's in the air bubble. So the air bubble has many different realities that is not the ocean.

So the one that we live in, this is called Boo Loka, which means the material plane. But look at Prokraty almost like an egg, which has parallel realities above and below. So if you don't have a lot of karma, if you've tried really hard to pop the bubble, but you haven't quite succeeded, you go to a higher reality. where you meet ethereal beings that help you, that guide you, and prepare you to come back into Buluoka to finish it out. So you go to higher realities.

This is what we call like heaven. So this is where we meet the mermaids and the celestial beings and the angels and all of those. They're not Ishvara. They're still part of Prakriti, but just at a higher realm. Now, if you lived a really terrible life and very Tamaic,

then what happens is you go to a lower reality. And here, this is what we call like the ghosts or dark spirits or entities. You go there to work through some things and you come back to this reality. So you can go to one of those places, but it's like a vacation. It's like if you go to Bali, you go and hang out in a hotel. After you run out of money, it says you got to go home now. So to work through your stuff, you do it in this reality. But the higher and lower planes help us in a more subtle way. So when you leave this body, if you are not enlightened, then you go to one of these realms,

you learn and you reincarnate back into this reality to work through what you need to. And at some point in this reality as a living being, you pop the bubble. When you pop the bubble, you see both together. You see the entire ocean of Ishvara and you see this material universe, and they're kind of overlaid with each other.

So the enlightened beings, they see everything, but behind that, all they see is truth, consciousness, and bliss. So people make the mistake. Don't wait till you die to pop the bubble. When you die, you're not going to pop the bubble. You're just going to a higher, lower realm and coming right back. When you're in this body, in this reality, pop the bubble. Because this is where you get to do it.

To be born as a human and have the potential to become enlightened, it's the most amazing gift that you can ever imagine. My guru told me there's billions of Atmas in the other realms waiting in line to incarnate as a human in Buluoka in this material plane. And he's saying, and then he's like, look at you guys. You're not even taking, there's billions, there's only seven billion and you spend your time watching Netflix. You have a chance to transform to change.

take it because you never know when you're going to be back into this plane with the human body to transform and so just on that so when people see like ghosts or mermaids or realities

whatever it might be they're just having the subtle essence of tapping into one of these realities they're not that doesn't mean they're enlightened that's a very important thing to understand they just have a more subtle perception of property Yeah, I also, the last conversation that came out in the podcast with Donald Hoffman speaks very much so to the headset analogy that I think if you let people listen to both episodes, it'll really tie in cohesively and find the conciliance between the Western scientific understanding and the Eastern view that we're exploring here and how they tie in together. You could have, you could perceive some of these more subtle realms and energies like you're talking to and mistake it for the absolute reality.

but you're still within the headset. Exactly. Exactly. Perfectly put. And even this idea of, there are clairvoyance that can tell you a past life, right? And because they're able to access

sort of like the more subtle components. Which sounds for people that are more than materialistic understanding sounds very wild and I'm somebody that I think is inherently pretty skeptical and doesn't believe anything. But I have had experiences where people have said things to me

that there is no possible way they would have known otherwise. and that I think starts to crack at our little concrete intellectual mind a little bit. Yeah, and to be honest, there is, I truly believe that people are capable of that. And at the same time, just be aware because as long as you're not enlightened, the moment I start to look at you, you walk into the door, I've already created a mental impression of you. So that's going to affect my reading.

So I might give you some clarity, but I might also tell you things that are way off. off base. Right? So be like a swan. Take the milk and don't drink, take, take, take the water. And it can be dangerous too because if somebody, you place somebody in a position of authority where they clearly see something true about you, then you will often take anything that they say as absolute truth and it could lead you astray. So it's very, I think you have to be very careful with engaging in that way. And also, you know, it's in their best interest to tell you that you were a great person in the last life. Right. They'll probably tell you like, you're Cleopatra. Of course, that's going to make you want to be more connected to them.

But it might not be the case either, right? So we have to have that humility and that understanding and take some useful components of it, but not get too carried away with that. So then on this path of work going, how do you describe the moment and the reality someone experiences as enlightenment? Because it's a term that has become, I think, really bastardized and tainted with so many different understandings. What is the essence of enlightenment? Perfect acceptance of the will of the divine. So it's this idea where all the three guna's are transcended.

All a vidya or spiritual ignorance is transcended. And you see that ultimately all there exists is truth, consciousness, and bliss. And this life is just the play. Because you see people listening, they might say, well, if you have existed, existed in Ishvara eternally, why did Ishvara create an air bubble? Why did I have to be covered in Avidya or Maya and go into this air bubble and identify with this air bubble? Why couldn't I just hang

out outside of the air bubble the whole time? So to understand that, this goes into the sort of of R-Vishishita Veta philosophy. And just to build in context, it's a variation of this with Shishah Dveta. It's very close, but it's not the same if people are listening. So in this variation that our guru teaches, we talk about it in terms of Ishfara is love. It's another way. It's love. And love possesses three qualities. One is that it is eternal, which we already addressed. The other is when you experience it, there's nothing higher. So you had mentioned when in moments where we have that taste of water, you realize there's nothing comparable to that. No chocolate cake, khakis or anything else.

Well, it's comparable to that. And the third, the most important is that it's constantly looking to experience itself. That's very important because Ishra is not confined. Ishra is constantly expanding. It's eternal. So it's expanding. So how does it expand by experiencing itself? But to experience what you need.

You need an experiencer and you need an object. To love what you need. You need a lover and you need a beloved. How could you experience who you are without having the contrast of who you're not? Exactly. And also how can you experience yourself without necessarily having some context of who you are? Right. So that's why Ishvara coexist with the Atmas.

That's why the ocean coexists with the fish. Because the ocean experiences itself to the fish. And the fish experiences itself to the ocean. So we experience Ishfara and Ishfara experiences us and that experience allows the entirety of the ocean to continue to expand. So it's all about experience. So now, if I'm Ishvara and I'm the fish

and we're eternally together and I'm looking to have a deeper experience with you, I'm like, Andre, I've been with you eternally. I'm kind of getting sick of you. Like I don't want to see you, man. Like, you know, can you go do something else because you're always next to me. So, let's create separation.

Air bubble creates separation. So when I love somebody and I take a break, what inevitably happens? It creates longing. So separation brings longing. That longing intensifies to such a point where your Atma is like, I am tired of this reality. I need water.

and that longing pops the bubble and now I'm back with Ishvara. So separation, longing, unity. Having then added more to the collective by that virtue of separation. Exactly. That virtue of air bubble creates the third component, which is the ability to experience itself and expand more. So we say that this whole thing is just a game. and the game

is an God's favorite game which is hiding and go seek Ishvvah says hey I'm going to go

hide myself in the air bubble you go in there and try and find me just overcome Maya and then you'll see that I'm actually everywhere

so it's an eternal game of hiding go seek between the lover and the beloved between the fish and the ocean and so

in that game of hiding go seek the stage is Procratic. The actors are you and me. And then the play is Maya making us believe that we are these actors. But eventually when we realize

that I am an actor, what happens? I continue to play, but now I do it with more fun and joy. Because if I'm acting as Romeo and I truly identify with Romeo and I forget that I'm an actor, I am dreading the moment of my death because I know I'm going to die.

So it's not enjoyable at all. But if I know, I'm not Romeo, it's a role. If I die, I go back to being an actor. What do I do? I enjoy it much more. So in the same way, this reality, enjoy. It's not meant to be a miserable existence. Just understand you're an actor in a play.

And to embrace that role, a friend Emily Fletcher, mine, meditation teacher, studies the Vedas also and I heard her say once that to summarize the Vedas in a sentence is in a way the one became two for the joy of becoming one again. Perfect. And it's exactly what you're saying here. There is a data collection mission that the one consciousness does when it's playing hide and seek. Yes, exactly. I like how you put it. It's just like the mother. If you go to a mother and say and you see a mother playing hiding go seek with her child. And you say, hey, why are you playing hiding and go seek?

You should be doing math or social studies. Mother will say, mind your own business. I'm having a fun time with my child. We're having this unique experience. And I like it because it's enjoyable. And so that's how we should look at life, right? And it's important caveat, because many people, they'll look at life and almost like a robot

and they see suffering. and I'll say, this is not real. Why are you suffering? Understand that you're not in this air bubble. That's not correct. Because if I'm Romeo and I'm playing that role, even though I know that I'm not going to die, I'm still going to experience the emotions.

That's what makes me a great actor. Because even though I am completely identified, a part of my subconscious knows I am not Romeo. but I am fully involved in the game. So a true spiritual being is fully empathetic, fully compassionate, fully in the mode of service and love,

and in that subtle understanding, realizing this is all just the game as well. That it is real, but it's not true. It can get into the very spiritually bypassy thing when you start to say, oh, okay, I have this new level of awareness. Everything is just an illusion.

and it can, that's not quite it. It might be a step, you know, as the spiritual pride or ego builds as a new level of awareness is attained and then we come back to our center. You know, I think that's part of so much of our path, which we can dive into more. But I do want to reflect on how

we have this inner yearning and longing that you're speaking to that not many people in the world has identified as to what really is that longing for. because in the material world, we're constantly seeking for things that give us a sense of satisfaction or momentary pleasure

through material gains, through success, through sex, through the myriad of things that can give us that momentary reduction of tension that we have of self, that it gives us the experience of oneness. But the spiritual path is to decide, okay, I'm not going to just search for

that infinite, boundless experience through the boundary existence. To have a true boundless experience, then you have to go towards the infinite. What is truly boundless in nature? And so in a way, it could be described, we're not searching for some, we're searching for all.

And we can experience the all in some things, but to exist in all, we must become one with all. And so that's the spiritual shift that we kind of started this conversation of enjoying the sensory pleasure. of the world and yet still acknowledging that we can have those and it can be beautiful, but there is a bliss of self that that fulfillment will never leave us in a way.

Yeah, so what we are searching for is Ananda. So as I said, that's our inherent nature. Just like you cannot remove the wetness from water, you cannot remove that inherent nature of bliss within us. It's just been covered through ignorance. So even though we are identifying with this world, as you rightly put it, inside some part of it's always trying to find that bliss in the things of the world. And the way that we describe it is it's like trying to see the rays of the sun reflected through broken glass. So I'm seeing through broken glass.

I'm perceiving some rays, but it's not the fullness. I'm not turning towards the actual sun. I'm just trying to absorb it through these broken pieces of glasses. And that's exactly what we're doing when we're operating in this world. We're just going and feeling this desire and we're getting momentary pleasure, but we're not turning towards that bliss that is there underlying this Maya or this spiritual ignorance. It's not that I can't derive bliss from this, but what is the intention? It's all about intention.

If I have the intention, I could feel full. full ananda when I drink this tea. I can go into Samadhi when I drink this tea. But what is the intention behind it? Yeah. That's the main point. So as we go on the spiritual path, wherever we're at on our journey, which I think can be dangerous to quantify, you know,

very easily is like, where am I on the scale of enlightenment? You know, we like to have a reference point for that, which I'm sure we could talk about. But as we decide and we make a declaration, that we want to become one with the water, or at least we want to have more water in our life, then ironically, we can experience a lot more difficulties at first on the path. And I've heard you talk about how oftentimes the material experience

of being in the world is filled, is very tasteful up front, but then it's poisonous on the other end, whereas the spiritual path, there is poison in the beginning, but it ends in sweetness. Yeah, I'd love to take credit for that, but that was in the Gita. Yeah, yeah, I've heard you shit. Chris says in the chapter 18

exactly what you just said. And yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy, right? Because the best way that I can explain to you is that we have an analogy. It's called Cafe on the Cliff. And so essentially what that means is there's a moment where I say,

I want to change. I want to change. So for me to change, what do I need to do? I need to dip, not dip, but dive into the ocean of Ishwara. So I go to the edge of the cliff. I look down and I try and I'm ready to jump. But the thing is to dive into Ishvara, what needs to happen?

You need to let go of your identity. This whole Swami identity has to be completely let go of. And that's extremely scary. It's not an easy thing. That's what we see with Arjuna when he's taken to the middle of the battlefield. and he sees the people he has to overcome. Initially, he wants to run away, right? But before he wanted to fight.

The whole battle, he was like, I'm ready to go, Krishna, I'm ready to fight. The moment it happens, the moment he's confronted, he wants to run away. So the moment we get onto that edge of the cliff, and it's time to jump, and we say, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, I don't see the bottom. I say to myself, okay, before I jump, let me have a try. So long ways up here I'm tired I just need a chai I drink a chai

I tell I'm going to jump guys I promise you I will jump but let me just have a chai so as I'm drinking the chai I get hungry so I have a croissant so I'm eating a croissant drinking a chai

it's sunny so then I said can we please organize a chair for me and my legs are tired the chair is created a table so now I put my chai and my croissant on the table

I'm sitting I'm at the edge of the cliff I'm like don't you worry I am jumping I told you I'm going to change, I'm going to do it. And then other people come. They see you sitting there. I go, before I jump, let me also have a chai and croissant.

Then they pull up a chair. Next thing you know, you created this whole cafe on the cliff where everybody's eating croissant, everybody's drinking chai, chilling, and nobody's actually jumping. Everybody's talking about it, but nobody's actually doing it. And that to me is where most people end up when they decide I want to. change because the moment we say that immediately all of that negativity that we've suppressed comes to the surface because we need to look at it to change it's not a it's not a pleasant thing like real spirituality

is also very uncomfortable so the moment you utter that word I want to change the divine's like okay this is what do you have to change the moment you see it oh let me have a chai let me have a croissant wait a second. So that's what I see. Are people ready to embrace the uncomfortable essence of what needs to happen if you really want to move forward? Such a good analogy. I haven't heard that before.

And it rings true because this world is so alluring. And in that book, Sadartha, very much is exactly this. You know, we have this inner longing that, like, we feel that, you know, is more natural to us as, I think, earlier on in life when there's less conditioning. And we kind of put a lot of those things to the side as we're like, you know, because the world is beautiful to enjoy. And opening a cafe sounds nice. I can, you know, provide a lot of pleasure to people. This isn't so bad, you know.

Long, having spent decades into that, we forget that there is a more deeper, richer possibility and experience of life that we've settled for comfort when we could have it all in a way. That's it. That's why most people, they don't make it past chapter one of the Bhagavid Gita. Because chapter one is as since the cafe on the cliff. Chapter 2 is when Krishna says, comes to the cafe, he takes the croissant from Arjuna's hand, he knocks the chai off of his mouth, he drags him to the edge of the cliff, and he kicks him off. That's how chapter 2 begins. So if we don't have something like that in our life, right?

or suffering, we're just going to always be on the edge of the cliff. And that's what I see with so many people, especially in modern day spirituality, is it's not that they don't want to change. There's a sincerity in change, but they found themselves on this edge, and they're unwilling to let go of the chai and croissant. It's more comfortable to talk about jumping than actually jumping. Yeah. Listen, I get it. I enjoy my croissants and chai, you know. I don't actually eat but the analogy of, you know, it's understandable and it is part of the game here to kind of play hide and seek in a way. And so it brings compassion and patience into our path. But I do want to talk about the difficulties of like what start to occur as you start to go on this path because

there are these memories, these some scars that come up to the surface. And what you spoke to earlier with our sadna, our spiritual practice, our sava, our selfless service, and our sangha, our community that can really lubricate and make the journey more joyful as we start to face these things that can be kind of guiding points to help us. As you start to sit with yourself, most people haven't sat with themselves for a single day just to sit, I'm going to sit in my room for a day

and not speak and just sit down. And immediately you see how you've been in horrible company your whole life. You know, it's very difficult. All these things start coming up that you didn't even realize we're there that are controlling you, these subconscious mechanisms that are happening beneath the field of awareness that are really controlling your destiny. Young is famously quoted as,

until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule you and you will call it fate. Beautiful. And so as we start to go on that journey of making things unconscious, conscious, all these difficulties start to come up. And so as you decided to be a monk, I start to face those. as everybody who's listening to this, whether they're a monk or not, if they make that declaration,

they're going to face those things. So talk about that a little bit and the importance of it. Yeah, I mean, I tell people, if your practice is not bringing these things up, look for another practice, right? Because the thing is, that's the whole goal,

is to make you uncomfortable. I remember when a person met my spiritual teacher, and when you're around, like real spiritually evolved beings, they do that for you. They bring it up to the surface without you having to do anything. And so she came up to you,

and she had the chance to sit next to him while he was eating. And she said, Swami, I've never thought, I've thought of the most disgusting and worst things sitting next to him. I did not know I was capable of thinking these things.

I am so embarrassed. And so, this is the thing. So for most of us we suppress it. So that practice, teacher, grace, whatever, brings this up. And the thing is, you know, I go back to it. I might sound like a broken drum, but it is that daily spiritual practice. It is that constant saba. It is that sanga, which ultimately helps us to overcome it. Because even now, on the path, there are days where things come up that I'm like, where is this coming from? And the deeper you go on the spiritual path, the more you uncover. And there's some beasts in that deepness of that subconscious where

you look and you're like, wow, this is going to take a long time for me to work through. And so that's why we always say effort and grace. Because there's some beasts in that subconscious, no matter how much effort you make, you're not going to be able to overcome in this life. And so when you have that grace of a mantra practice, of a sadana, of a teacher, that will take you over. But without that, I found it to be very difficult. Very, very difficult. So that's wonderful. And as we start to go on this path, like you spoke to when we're on the edge of the cliff,

the most difficult thing to let go and then transform is our identity. And the ego is so slippery. and as we go on the spiritual path, it quickly will find any increase in knowledge as a means to enhance our superiority. And so there can be the futility and the dangerous part of going on the spiritual path is your consciousness can easily fracture

and your ego can grab a hold of these concepts to create more separation, which is ironically can happen. And, you know, this, this impacts us all on our journey. And so when you look at the spiritual pride or ego that comes into the picture, I would just love for you to share a little bit on that.

Sure. Yeah, this is this, to me, to be honest, spiritual pride is the worst. I've met people that are not into anything spiritual. And they're more spiritual than people that have memorized the Bhagwaghet Gita left to right. You can smell and feel that spiritual ignorance or spiritual pride.

So that's the sum of something. that we have to be so careful about because I feel that it's like we made all of this headway. Now we're spiritual, we're reading the Gita, we're doing our practices. But that final test, if you will, is that spiritual pride that can take all of it and manipulate it. I remember when I was in Germany, I was teaching the Bhagavit Gita. And I was in Switzerland and I would travel back from Switzerland to Germany on the train. And so I gave this talk in Switzerland about the Gita, about being non-attached, about spirituality. And I was like, I finished.

I was like, wow, that was great. I'm like, I really spoke about the essence of the Gita. So I get on the train and they had these huge windows. And the whole time on the train, it's a five-hour drive, five-hour trip. And I was thinking, wow, I really understood the Gita. It's taken me so long, but I finally. understood it. And then the train stops. And I look and there's an old lady. And she's sitting there and she's like full of like dirt. She's homeless. Her skin is falling off. She has some type

of skin cancer. An immediate feeling of disgust. I looked at her. I felt disgust towards her. And I just spoke about how we're all one and love and all of this. Immediately I feel disgust. Next thing in my thought, I hope she does not come on the train. The moment I thought that she gets up, gets on the train. Next thought, I hope she doesn't sit next to me. The moment I thought that everybody in my boot got up and left and she came and sat right next to me. And so as I'm sitting next to her, I could smell her.

And my immediate reaction was to get up and go sit in another place. I could have done something. I could have helped her. I could have given some water. I could have done something. But that disgust made me leave and go somewhere else. And as this happened, the very next stop, she gets up and leaves.

I get to Germany, and my teacher is there. And he looks at me, he said, you know, it's one thing to speak about the Gita, it's another thing to live the Gita. All of these people, you speak about it, but you haven't really lived it. And later on, he confirmed, he said, that lady that you saw, that was the divine mother. She came to test you. And so that story always keeps with me because it's a remembrance that Gita has to go through you. It's not about learning something from the mind. That breeds spiritual pride.

But when you live it, when it goes through you, that's how you can really help and share and inspire others. And so that's a lifelong journey to live the Gita rather than speak the Gita. It's that journey of plucking the weeds from the mind. And those moments where we slip into unconsciousness and regress into judgment in our old ways are inevitable on the path of evolution and growing. But that's a beautiful example where you have that experience. And then the next time where you cut yourself judging,

you view it as an opportunity to bring grace and satva and those qualities to the table. Then you start to transform. And then the next time you sit on the subway and somebody in that position sits next to you. It's like it's a different, and I'm sure you've experienced this. And that's happened to me. Yeah.

The exact same thing happened. So I could finish with that if you like. It's a really beautiful story of what happened. It's a crazy story. So this whole thing happened, right? And it's always been with me. So I come to New York City. And I don't know anything.

I know nobody. I have nothing. I only have the thought from my guru. Stay focused on what you want. And so one day I'm walking near Times Square, and it's a homeless man. And this is on the eighth day of Navaratri. So Navaratri is a nine-day celebration of the Divine Mother.

So every day we celebrate the Divine Mother in a various, in a form, a different form. And so on the eighth day I'm walking, I'm going somewhere, and there's a homeless man, and he's coming towards me. and he walks past me and he looks at me and we immediately make a connection or eyes connect and he looks and he says can I walk with you?

And I said, okay if you want so we start walking and at this time I was a Rishi not a Swami and I said my name's Rishi and he said oh nice to meet you and he said his name we had a conversation he didn't ask for anything

didn't tell him anything else and then he says I have to go So we get to the crossroads and he goes one way, I go the other. The very next day, the final day of Navaratri, I'm in Brooklyn. So you can imagine New York has millions of people. I'm in a subway station below underground, waiting for something. And as I'm sitting there, far away from when we met, where we met, I hear a voice and says, hello Rishi.

And I look and it's that same homeless mat that I met the day before in the Times Square, now in a lower subway station in Brooklyn. You never meet people twice in New York. So I'm shocked. I'm like, are you stalking me? Like, did you put something in my pocket? How did you find me? And he just smiles white, right?

Not Indian. Wouldn't know anything about the tradition. And he points to my red line and he says, the divine mother connected us again. Because this is a TILAC and it represents the philosophy. And the red line represents the divine mother. So he pointed at the red line. line, he says, the divine mother connected us again. There's no way he would know that. And I was

shocked and he's like, can I drive, can I go with you on the subway? I said, okay. So go on the subway, he's with me. And I look at him and he has nothing, a homeless man with nothing. He reaches into his bag. He's like, can I please give you some bread? Can I please give you some peanut butter jelly sandwich or peanut butter jelly? So he was offering me things. And I'm like, no, no, no, please, you keep it. And I look at him, I said, he said, what are you doing here? I said, I'm telling, I'm helping people

to deepen a deeper relationship with the divine. And he says, how? I said, by helping people through mantra chanting. And he said, which mantra? I said, Omnamonarayana. All of a sudden, he starts yelling, Omna mona-Mona-Rayana. He goes back and forth in the trouble.

He says, Omna Mna Mana Raianaanaanaanaanaanaanaana. then he stops, he looks at me and he says, everything will work for you. Just make sure you live in truth. And in that moment, the subway train stops and it's the middle of COVID.

He gives me a big hug like for 10 seconds. And he whispers in my hair, he said, made a divine mother and all of her children bless you. And he let go. He walked out and never saw him again. That was five years ago.

Wow. And so that first moment with this old lady, help me to understand, wait a second, don't just throw this off. There's always something deeper that we can learn from different experiences in our life. Incredible. It's so what seems like a simple transition

and how we approach the world radically gives us experiences that transform us and the contrast between that experience and the last one in the subway, you know, is massive. And we can all experience that grace in different aspects. and avenues of our life by bringing that earnestness and helping us go from judgment to love,

you know, from fear to fearlessness. Exactly. Yeah. This has been one of my favorite conversations on this. I've been really loving this. Yeah, it's awesome, man. Thank you so much for the path and the devotion you carry through all of this work

is so much so felt. And, you know, I think it's said many times that, you know, our liberation then becomes a liberation for the world. and as you walk through the world, the work that you've done internally, it entrains the environment and other people start to become inspired by it,

and our presence really does become that illuminating path for so many people to wake up. And I think we don't always give ourselves the space to acknowledge how far we've come. And I think it's safe to say that your old guy on Wall Street, however many years ago, would be absolutely baffled seeing you now. It's true.

But man, yeah, just thank you for listening to yourself. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a lovely conversation and it's lovely to connect with you as well. Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to share? You know, thank you. It's been so good to have you here.

Is there anything else that you'd like to share with our audience that's on your heart or mine? You know, I would just say this whole sort of podcast that we've done together, I think the underlying theme, if you're going to take anything from this. And this is actually the entire Bhagavit Gita can be summarized in two words. And that's let go. Let go of all the things that are in our limited self and let the divine flow through you. Find that acceptance in the will of the divine. And you'll see that your whole life will be transformed in such a beautiful way.

So that's the message that I would share with the speakers is let go. and embrace the will of the divine. It's such an important reminder. And I'm just, I'm grateful for you in this whole Sanga that's building, like, we get to have, through the, through the incredible gift that is internet and technology, that has like a double-sided storage that has its own, you know, downfalls. We also have the gift of its interconnectedness. And, you know, reaching millions of people through these cameras and microphones is just a wild idea.

but it feels good to know that these connections are being made, these insights are being shared, and people are waking up. And I think the more that we tune into that reality, the less the other one has the grip over us. Very true. Thank you for all of the work that you're doing as well. My honor and excited to hang out more and have more conversations.

And you feel like a long-lost spiritual brother for sure. Absolutely. I think we've all had those connections where you know you could meet somebody dozens of times and it's just a surface level relationship. You can meet somebody once and dive right in and you know that you're going to be in each other's lives for a while. So it's incredible. Everybody that's been tuning in, whether it's through Spotify and the comments, YouTube in the comments, please let us know what uniquely. I really do love seeing how what was shared in this conversation inspired within you, where you're currently at in your path on your journey,

the struggles and challenges, the wins, the blessings, the things that are transpiring in your life. And I think through the reflection of one another and our own journeys, we get to feel comforted on the path and trust that our life will pan out in our favor ultimately. And we will join that ocean once again, one day. Thank you so much. Until next time, be well.