Know Thyself - E115 - 6LACK: The Inner Work of An Artist: Healing Through Vulnerability, Creativity, and Self Care

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Artist and musician 6LACK opens up about mental health, meditation, and the power of music to heal. He shares his journey of becoming the renowned rapper he is today and how by prioritizing his well-being he has evolved both inside and out.He gives a deep look into his creative process: from overcoming creative blocks and expectations to entering a 'flow state' while creating music. He discusses how turning vulnerability into art has shaped his music, revealing the emotional depths behind his lyrics. As he explores the responsibilities of being an artist in today's world, he highlights the evolution he has undergone with each album, illustrating how they mirror his personal growth.6LACK concludes with a poignant reflection on a life-altering accident that reshaped his perspective, leaving listeners with a powerful reminder to make every moment count.André's Book Recommendations: https://www.knowthyself.one/books___________0:00 Intro1:56 Being an Introspective Person4:09 Turning Vulnerability Into Art7:30 How 6LACK Started Writing Rhymes 10:12 Overcoming the Odds, Choosing Music, Going All In 14:40 The Responsibility of an Artist16:33 Growing Through Each Album20:45 Collaborating With J. Cole 24:13 Making Music to Inspire27:08 Addressing His Mental Health After Making ‘Free 6lack’ 34:00 Breaking Out of the ‘Musician’ Identity37:32 Who He Is At His Core40:46 Fatherhood & Integrity as a Man44:43 Imposter Syndrome as an Artist48:51 Creative Blocks & Committing to the Process53:39 The Numbers Don’t Matter: Success & Expectations57:08 Meditation & Daily Practices for Self Care1:03:15 When the Song Comes Through You: The Spiritual Side of Music1:09:05 The Realest Lyrics He’s Written: Healing Though Creativity1:16:59 Safe Spaces for Men to Express Their Vulnerability1:21:27 The Care Accident that Changed His Perspective1:27:14 While You’re Here, Make It Count1:29:39 Conclusion___________6LACK is an American R&B singer, rapper, and songwriter. Born in Baltimore, Maryland and raised in Atlanta, Georgia, he gained recognition following the release of his 2016 single "Prblms", which marked his first entry on the Billboard Hot 100. He signed with Love Renaissance, an imprint of Interscope Records to release his debut studio album, Free 6lack (2016), which was nominated for Best Urban Contemporary Album at the 60th Annual Grammy Awards and received platinum certification by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA).Two years later, he released his second studio album East Atlanta Love Letter (2018), which peaked at number three on the Billboard 200. His third album, Since I Have a Lover (2023) was met with moderate critical and commercial reception.He has received three Grammy Award nominations.Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/6lack/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYRLqThkOVjysBOM6fgkqmQ6LACK on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4IVAbR2w4JJNJDDRFP3E83?si=o8JJGIHBQNym3pGZ9_bcLQ&nd=1&dlsi=43086831413948dd6LACk on Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/artist/6lack/1016633280___________Know ThyselfInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/Website: https://www.knowthyself.oneClips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKgListen to all episodes on Audio: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927André DuqumInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/

In order to do anything, you have to allow yourself to be in an uncomfortable space and not shy away from it. Never had a place on my own. Never had a car. Barely had a phone. Having studio access was all I needed. Those three, four years were just trust for me. It didn't pay off, but I got better. For each album, there's always been a moment. And it goes from, like, I make songs and I like my songs to now you're in the studio and it's an out of body. Like, I'm just completely in a whole other world. And sometimes it feels like I'm not even, like, writing in those moments. Once I started to feel those types of feelings, it was like, oh, no, this is really something that I could dedicate my life to. Then this could take me wherever I wanted to go. When I was with the labels that I shouldn't have been with, for them, it was like, we want hits.

I create with the purpose of this is going to help myself, this is going to help somebody else. I stick to that. So I know it's not what's popular, but I also know that we have the power to change what's popular. Yeah, you look up and you're in the studio with Jake Cole or you're at a festival somewhere across the world. This is the weirdest, most fun, amazing, most terrifying shit ever. Like, I truly have the power to do anything. And, yeah, that's a treat. Hey, everyone, welcome back to know that self.

I'm honored today to be sitting with an artist who is not only made waves in the music industry, but also I feel as a beacon of authenticity and advocate for personal growth and mental health. He is a Grammy-nominated platinum-selling artists whose streams are loved by millions of people around the globe. including myself, but beyond the billions of streams and accolades, he is somebody that really feels on a true commitment to understanding himself, the world around him, and really using his gift and talent to uplift others. So, Black, thanks for being here, bro. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, I've been a fan of your music, man, for a while, and it's been cool to meet you just a little bit dropping it beforehand, and also, you know, hearing of you and your demeanor, you're a very introspective guy and also very calm. And I'm just curious for you on your journey, has that always been a part of you? Or was there a specific moment that sticks out where you realize the power of looking inwards?

I would say that, like, I remember very early on and maybe it doesn't come from, like, the most positive space, but just you go through childhood and you feel very innocent and very, like, pure and very, like, filter lists and then a couple of things start to change whether it be you don't communicate with your parents as much or school like the dynamic starts to change figuring out friends figuring out your voice like figuring out everything and I think around the time that communication amongst like family and friends started to minimize my personality started to go a little bit

inwards. From feeling to feeling at a young age, it was like, okay, this could go one way or another. It's like you could, you know, be so into yourself that things become more difficult or you can tap into what you like and, you know, start to figure out, you know, who you are, what your voice is and what you represent and what your purpose is. So from a super early age, I just started to rely on myself and learn myself. And yeah, I would say that was the very beginning of just like my demeanor starting to become a little bit more just like calm and cool. It was just like, okay, I can figure this out as long as I got me, I got space in my room. I'll be fun. Yeah. I feel like, you know, as one wants to learn more about themselves and figure out

like how to find a life of fulfillment and joy, start to look inwards. And I think some people developed a temperament earlier on. I feel like I also in some ways, depending on the environment in which we grew up, we can start to shut down a little bit aspects of ourselves and kind of become more reserved. But I see you as somebody who's like very observant. And I guess what's been your journey of funneling that energy into your music? Because you share a lot of real personal themes and vulnerabilities in your music as any good artist really, you know, does. But how have you seen the link between vulnerability and putting it into art and transmuting the energy? It was easy for me as far as like the creative part of it because my issue was

communicating in real life. It was like having real conversations and expressing myself, you know, to the people around me. So that was a difficult part. Once I figured out, oh, I can just write it down. Oh, I can just put it in a poem. Oh, I can just put it on a song. From there, it was like, okay, this is my vehicle to like teaching myself a little bit more when it comes to expression. because for whatever reason I was super, like you said, just reserved when it came to doing anything outside of my creativity. So once I got the idea to just like write things down and put it in song form and put it in poem form and get a reaction and a response from people, it was just like, oh, okay, like I, this is my thing. And if I put enough time and effort into this, then ultimately that will help me grow overall. What do you think, because you're somebody who's scaled very successfully your art into the world,

and those are two different skill sets, like making good art is one thing, the business of, it's another thing. But for artists that are listening to this, whether it's writing or making music or painting, like we all want to share that with the world, but I think oftentimes we can struggle in expressing ourselves in that way. What advice do you have for people that want to express that authentic self? I mean, first you have to figure out what it is. It's the same as there are tons of people who have hobbies and things that they enjoy, but what is your true purpose and doing it? Like, why do you do it? I think if you can at the very least start to figure out like why you want to do something, then doing it becomes a little bit easier, if that makes sense. Like I at one point was just rapping because it felt fun and it felt expressive like on a base level. But once I started to figure out, okay, things are not necessarily right in my life. And I'm, you know, putting it down on wax and I'm able to look back at it and I'm able to go back and have conversations and I'm able to help somebody else. Somebody else out if they relate to it, I started to figure out like all the different things that happened as an effect of like just putting effort into my wife, my wife, my wife. And yeah, from there, I think it just becomes a lot easier.

Like I've spoken to my little brother, my sister, my friends. and it's been the same thing since wherever it was don't think you know just because you like or love something that it's just a direct bridge to the result of like you know the end result of it and um yeah if you figure out your why things become a lot easier a lot smoother or at the very least you at least have a path and yeah that's been there for me i think that's amazing advice you have that clarity for what it is you really want just know why yeah otherwise you're just kind of roaming and nothing wrong with roman either but you don't want to roam for too long or look up years of passing you're just like oh Okay, is this a hobby? Is this a passion? Is it my job? Like, just figure out your why. Is it for me? Is it for other people? Is it for both? Like, just figure out your why. I think as we evolve as human beings that why evolves. It seems like you've had a pretty strong conviction and self-belief in your ability to make art and that this was going to be, like you knew you kind of your why and what you wanted to do from a pretty early age, which is kind of rare. And so would you just take us back a little bit? I would love to hear more about. your childhood and like I guess the the point of starting to make music and take it as a serious thing from rapping and you know as a young at a young age to being in high school and then going from there like what was the transition to really being convicted with your art and

starting to yeah see that dream um I I feel like in all the interviews that I've had I always get the question of like when was the moment that you knew like X Y Z and I feel like I've answered it a million different ways because there are tons of different sparks in moments moments that have obviously like propelled me to do what I do. But the other week I was thinking, I was listening to something and they asked a question again in the way that he answered it. It helped me fully realize like the moment, the first moment. And like I said, around the time that communication with parents starts to change your second grade, third grade, you start to see schools a little different. You're like, oh, I don't really need to get all A's or I don't really

care as much anymore. And I became a little bit nonchalant. But, um, but, um, I, I remember writing poems for my teachers, anytime I had a favorite teacher. And the response that I would get from them was the very beginning of me thinking, like, oh, like, I love how that makes me feel to do something for some audios and to get the specific, you know, response that they gave me. It makes me want to do this again. And so I just kept doing it. New year, new favorite teacher, new thank you type of poem. and then that carried over into battle rap.

And that was like middle school, high school, when it was like more of a competitive thing for me. It was like, okay, now I want to like rap against the best people who say that they rap. And now I want to be at the lunch table and like creating like community and like these moments that just will be fun to look back on. So it went from poems to battle rap. And music has always been there, but around 2009, in 2010 is when I really locked in

in because that was around the time I was getting ready to graduate high school. So it's like you're about to become an adult, your mom is on you, about getting a backup plan or going to college to major or something else, and you have to start figuring it out for real. So I did college 2010, 2011, and after my first year, I was like, that was great.

Now it's time to drop out. Yeah. That was it. I feel you, yeah, man. I think in some ways, like, how we show life we really want what we want and that we're committed to it is willing to go through the struggles. Like, when we love something, we're willing to go through the times where we're not getting paid for it.

You know, it's not working out. For sure. I would just love to hear a little bit more about the times where you were struggling, like, living in the studio, not obviously the artist you are today. And, like, what was your mindset around like that time? Yeah, 2011 to 2015, 16. Like I had never had a place on my own, never had a car, barely had a phone. If we had Wi-Fi, then I had a phone number.

If we didn't have Wi-Fi, then I had no phone number. And yeah, I never, I didn't have a job during that time either. And it wasn't from like a place of like arrogance or a place of like, I don't, you know, I don't do this or I don't want, I really don't want to do that. It was just knowing exactly what I wanted and knowing the energy that I can carry, you know, to be able to have friends who create and do the same types of things and allow me to share space with them in the couch hopping from, well, first it started in Miami, went to Miami 2011 through 2014, signed my first deal, worst deal. Countless amount of albums I was supposed to produce for them,

signed with a group, like four other people. The advance was like $5,000 between all of us. I think we spent half of it. The other half vanished and no one could ever tell us what happened to it. And during that time, like, I don't know, like, having studio access was all I needed. It was knowing that this isn't the best situation ever. It's not comfortable per se, but when I'm uncomfortable, like, I tend to figure things out. So I was just grateful for the ability to come to the studio and make songs and with my friends, too, and feel like at the very least, like we can protect each other.

If I got money for pizza this week, then somebody else's mom or sister or friend or girlfriend needs to be sending money for pizza the week after that. And we just kind of like we're in survival mode, but it wasn't the worst. You know, like, I think that in order to do anything, you have to allow yourself to be in an uncomfortable space and not shy away from it. So it doesn't mean like put yourself there on purpose or like become infatuated with it. But if that's the situation that you're in, it's just like all you can do is submit and trust in those three, four years. were just trust for me. It was just knowing I really love what I do. And knowing in moments when you create something special,

I had never felt, how do you say it? It's just like just really being tapped in. I never felt a moment of spirit when creating music until I became a young adult. And it goes from like, oh, I make songs and I like my songs to now you're in the studio and it's an out of body. Like, I'm getting chills and like this is me, but I'm listening to it as if it's someone else.

and maybe nobody's in here and I'm like jumping up and down and stomping and like I'm just completely in a whole other world. And once I started to like feel those types of feelings, it was like, oh no, this is really something that I could dedicate my life to. And if I put in the hours, if I put in time, if I really, really continue to learn myself, then this could take me wherever I wanted to go. And it sounded like an idea, you know, sounded like a dream, sounded like a far-fetched thing to everybody around me.

mom of course parents family but um we were also in a very transitional period where like the internet was starting to like do things that it just never did before from my space to facebook to instagram like i was a student in every aspect so i'm watching social media grow i'm learning what to do what not to do i'm figuring out ways to promote my music and not like do too much but i just became a student and i just really really like took it as serious as i could take it and it and it didn't pay off in those three to four years as far as like results that you could take back home. But I got better. I got better at writing. I got better at singing. I got better at rapping. And yeah, once I got my first like bad taste of just being in the wrong rooms and being in the

wrong space, that was enough for me to say, cool. I took these four years like very seriously and I utilized them, no complaints. But that's not okay. And this isn't the space I need to be in anymore. I've done what I need to do. So, yeah. Love it. I want to talk about that shift as you started to like just grow up, become a young adult, learn more about yourself, tap into spirituality, find meditation.

And I love this quote from, I think, Tony K. Bambara, that says the artist's responsibility is to make the revolution irresistible. Absolutely. And I would just love to hear as you started to grow on your own journey, what you view your role as an artist is and contributing to like a more beautiful world being created. Yeah. I have always felt of service in something like one way or another, whether it be taking care of my little brother and sister, whether it be taking care of, like, friends in the neighborhood, even if I couldn't monetarily do it, like, however, I can be a useful listener or anything.

Like, that's always been something that I resonate with a lot. So when it came to music, it was kind of a no-brainer for me. You know, at first you're figuring it out, and then after a while I was like, well, your music is supposed to help people. Obviously, it's supposed to help yourself, but it's supposed to help people. And I have, I like to think I'm like a bridge, like between growing up in Atlanta where honestly yoga was not a thing and healthy eating was not a thing. And a lot of the things that I got exposed to later were just not even on the menu. It was processed foods and can this and microwave that.

And I come from something that was very far from where I am right now. And my job is to like be right in the middle so that I can tell everybody who needs to know. and so that I can also like push them to a side that I'm really, really walking towards right now. So being a bridge is the most refreshing and the most fulfilling part of what I do. It's like I get to connect people who would have never known otherwise.

I never knew and now I'm in the place of like, okay, I know better. If I know better, I can do better. And if I do better, then why not like share that with everybody? I love that. Yeah, I really do think in terms of like creating a more conscious planet, we need people from all walks of life, touching all places on Earth and being a bridge.

and even just like a line in a song which should not be overlooked can be immensely impactful and just like planting a seed for somebody about the power of your mental health about taking responsibility about all the themes that you talk about. So what was this shift

from your first to second album as you started to infuse more of that because I know from Free Black to your second album there was a lot more of infusing those seeds and messages in. Yeah, I think like Free Black was the blueprint for like what I wanted to do.

It was telling people that I'm not in the best place right now, but I'm very hopeful and I'm very aware that my life is on a path to change it. So it felt very monochromatic. It felt very like moody. They slapped a bunch of labels on it at first.

But I was really just growing. And by the time we got into the process of the second album, I was like, I see my life a lot different. Like I've had a kid and that brought so much color to my life. Like beyond, it reminded me, what it was like to be filterless, to be a kid again.

It was like, oh, I have somebody around me who's not judging me, doesn't care. I can make any face, make any sound. Like, everything's on the table. So once I felt that again, once I got a taste of the industry and, like, realize that it can be what I want it to be. So from Free Black to East Atlanta Love Letter was really someone trying to figure it out to someone who had a lot better of an understanding of who they were. And it was like, I haven't figured it out yet, but my heart is open to love. My heart is open to being a better communicator.

Any label that I slapped on myself at a young age, it's time to remove it. You know, I'm shy. I don't do this. I don't dance like that. I don't laugh that loud. It's like all these things that I kind of used to cope through my life were finally starting to shit. And I could put it in the music. It was going from black and white to color, but not super bright yet.

It was just like evening night colors. It was like, we're getting there. We're growing somewhere. We're growing. And, yeah, first album, the second album is like, when you listen to the two, you can just hear the textures in the first one versus the textures in the second one and just know, okay, like, either he's in love or happier or on a path to just like being in a better space. And I think for my listeners, why would you ever, you know, want your favorite artist to like be that same thing? You know, so it was a growing thing for me and it was a growing thing for them.

It's like I'm sharing this with y'all because it's just time to continue. Yeah, I think as artists, it's so important just to, as you're being real and authentic to your own process, you're giving people who are also going through those things, something to resonate with and relate to, which is helping people with loneliness and, you know, I think sometimes in personal development communities, at least you could like perceive things that are only like directly trying to improve somebody's life with what you say. But that relatability as an honest reflection of your own journey is immensely helpful for so many people. and I think it's so cool that as an artist if your music is always a reflection

of where you're currently at in life then after 30 years from now, 40, 50 years from now looking back on your discography, each album is an accurate representation of your identity. Yeah, it's a time capsule. But if you're not authentic and you're just trying to create something

that you think it's going to do well, then you just have like regurgitated stuff. Yeah, you got a lot of regret. I was like, I figured that out super early too. It was when I was with the labels who I shouldn't have been with, that was one thing that I kept advocating for. It was just you guys want results and you guys see dollars

and you guys have like an idea of success that is outdated to me. So I just had to stand on like, I know who I am, I know who I want to be, I know what I want people to get from me and I never want to look back at what I did and feel any type of like regret for just making a decision from a bad place.

So for them it was like we want hits. And for me, it was just like, well, then nobody's going to care about me. They're just going to care about the song that made them feel something for a moment and then toss me to the side whenever they find a new favorite song. So creating like a story for people to follow and creating a base that's just solid was, I guess back then it wasn't too much of a priority for them, but always a priority for me. It's just like find your people, the same way you do in life, and like work on community. As your career started to take off, do you have, like, I guess just looking back, some of your favorite collaborations, because obviously you've collaborated with so many incredible artists. Was there, like, a big one that was surreal for you at a moment? Off the top of my head, Jay Cole is always, like, that's, it's not normal.

Like, you know, even what he does, like what we all do, it's not a normal thing to write rhymes and be able to pay your bills from writing rhymes and then meet other people who've been doing it for decades before you, who you obviously live. up to and next thing you know you're sitting in the room you're just like having a regular conversation like I've had to say it to him I've said it to myself I'm just like this none of this is normal none of this I'll never get over it I never get used to it it'll never be jaded like it's a very special experience that we get to do that we get to have yeah and for pretty little fears it was a song that I already had I didn't go in like yo I need you to like hop on this song like it was more so just like we're meeting we're speaking talking about fatherhood

I play some music with no intentions of like asking anything. And I think the second time we met, he heard the unfinished song. And immediately it was just like, send that to me. Like, you know, I want to write something to it. And I could have screamed. I could have jumped out of my seat. But I was just like, yeah, I got, you know, I sent it to you later. Yeah, my assistant sent it over.

Yeah, it texts me so I can remember. But, no, it was surreal. It was a beautiful thing because Cole is like one of my favorite artists. And also just like right in that lane of relatability and authenticity where it's just like, there's no gimmick around it. This is somebody who is walking you through his growth, you know, his thought process, his career, his childhood, his, all of his personal experiences are there for the whole entire world to see, consume, relate to and feel.

So to even align with somebody like that, let me know that I was on the right path. Like I couldn't have drawn it up any better. And yeah, I'm super thankful, you know, every single. single day to be able to say we did that um we shot a video together we shared the stage together um yeah it's it's just amazing i mean i can only imagine how surreal it's it is to collaborate with just like yourself a powerful lyricist but then getting to meet somebody who they are behind behind the artistry yeah and like as a as a person and i don't obviously know jaco personally but sounds like and it feels like he's a really down-to-earth dude yeah and that's always like beautiful

especially in this industry because you can get the opposite for sure right they're both on the menu yeah that i'm about say that phrase is it's not a tired phrase when they say sometimes like it sucks to meet your idols or the people that you look up to or like or respect because you just never know especially in the music industry because there's just so much uh extra things to navigate around and through without naming names have you experienced that for sure yeah there's been that's why i'm such a like homebody like for the most part like i'm not on the scene i'm not looking for the biggest party or where the most people are going to be like i try and stay out the way because i know it's a very slippery slope and i don't need i can cuss right yeah i don't need

no shit i don't want no shit i don't want no smoke um like i like to protect my myself the people i care about and um i plan on keeping in that way as long as i possibly can so please keep that Yeah. I love that. No, it seems like you really just about your business in your own lane. Yeah, yeah. As you've grown as an artist, those collaborations coming in, like your albums do well, and everything starts growing for you. How did you view your relationship with the responsibility your music has? Because we talked about the importance of how it can heal and support people. But yeah, I guess do you feel a responsibility as an artist to wield, I guess your wisdom, your artistry, your lyrics with proper understanding of how they affect people in the world? I couldn't create anything without like being aware of like what I'm putting out. Like it's, I know that I've been in a dark place before. I know that I've been depressed before. I know that I've felt without before.

And the last thing that I would need in those moments is anything to like amplify that feeling. So I do think that there is plenty of that out there for me to choose the opposite. Like I know my responsibility. I know what I want, you know, like as I as a fan, you know, if I'm listening to. to my favorite artist. Like, regardless of what they're going through, at the end of it, the takeaway needs to be good for me to truly enjoy it. So, yeah, I create with the purpose of, like, this is going to help myself.

This is going to help somebody else. And, like, let's just stick to that. And honestly, like, I feel like sometimes it's a little bit difficult because you can feel the responsibility. But there are sometimes when it's like maybe I'm not even, like, growing at the pace that is that puts me in a position to like to package this up and put this out the right way. So that's where you get like sometimes writers block and sometimes imposter syndrome. And I went through like a pretty weird time between like my second album and my last album.

It was before I went to therapy and like everything really, really started to click for me. But that in between space was like I feel a responsibility and that responsibility is starting to turn into pressure. And now I have to figure out what to truly prioritize. Is it like making a product or is it just taking care of yourself? Yeah, I think there was this 2019 study where they pulled and interviewed and asked 1,500 independent musicians. And results were 73% of independent musicians that were studied,

said that they struggled with mental health, anxiety, depression. And I think that in the artists, inherently are pretty sensitive, you know? For sure. It's like you get access to the gift of your creativity through sensitivity, but also if it's not harness properly, right, you start to get in the brunt end of that, right? And obviously as you started to turn from that second to third album,

which came out last year, there was an immense amount of growth that reflected into your music from therapy and meditation, yoga, all these things that you really mentioned. I'm just curious, what do you think is the link between sensitivity as an artist and mental health and where that goes wrong for a lot of creatives.

I feel like for me I put so much like time into crafting things that are super personal to me that sometimes

just speaking from my experience sometimes I would let's say free black I make the album it's encompassing everything that happened to me from early childhood to where I was in that moment. I had went on the road and toured it and performed it and cried it and by the end of it still felt like that was in it. And that was like one of the biggest lessons for me. It was like you have exhausted yourself

emotionally and you have helped a bunch of other people. But mentally you haven't like handled with every situation that you need to handle. It's like you made it look good and you know, it was done in good purpose, but you can't exhaust yourself emotionally and not actually take care of what needs to be taken care of. So looking back at that, like that was a super tough time for me to to know that I had did something good, but to know that I didn't feel good. It was like, this is a weird like tradeoff. This is a weird exchange because I thought, you know, being able to take care of myself and

being able to take care of my family and all, like all of those things would provide some of happiness, but you have inner work to do and you can't skip any parts of the process or make yourself look good to other people. It's like, no, you actually got to get to the bottom of like the stuff that you wrote about. You can't just write it out and think that it's fixed. It's like, no, go have that convo, go fix that thing, go mend that relationship, cut that relationship off, and then like you'll start to feel a little bit better. So a good learning lesson, And like I said, to just know that just because you are expressing yourself emotionally doesn't mean that you're truly handling, like, the things that are going on up here.

I love that. Such an important reminder. When you started diving into, like, the therapy and the healing, I'm curious if you're open to sharing, like, what was one of your biggest challenges or, like, themes that you had to work through individually for you in that time? What was some of the hardest stuff? I'm pretty sure of the long list. I was honestly just made aware during that time like how stubborn I was and how unintentionally

arrogant I can be. I would like to think that for the most part, you know, I'm nice and sweet and respectful. And I try my best to be like a really, really good person. But I grew up basically with no mentors. Like I was always the person that other people came to. So without like knowing it fully, like sometimes if there's. somebody really, really close to me, say, like, girlfriend, who has something that they observe and that they see and that they're aware of and they try and, like, bring it to my attention,

it's almost like, what, like, that can't be the case. Like, I'm, I'm over here handling this and doing this and caring about this and exerting this. And it's just, like, almost just turned off from the idea that, like, I could be doing something wrong. It was just like, I'm, well, I didn't, I didn't mean it that way. So just because I didn't mean it that way, it just kind of canceled it out. and I was just made aware of how arrogant I can be. And it took having my therapist for me to, like, say things out loud and to get a second opinion. And for them to be like, okay, well, of course that wouldn't make somebody else feel good. Or, of course, you might have seemed, like, inconsiderate in that moment.

Or it was just, like, little moments like those where I was just like, okay, I got some work to do. And I felt like there were resistance from myself. And I started to watch, like, my reactions. and I started to feel like, it's not really me. Like, even, you know, if I feel strongly about something, the way that I'm, like, responding to these things is just not, it's not my best self.

And I feel it immediately after it's out. So it's just, like, we got to figure out what that is. And, yeah, Sarita, my therapist was, like, step one and me truly figuring out, like, what's your issue, bro? Like, what are you upset about? What have you not let go of? What have you not cried about? like, is it something with your mom and is it something with your dad?

Is it something with your brother? Is it something with your sister? Is it something with that relationship from high school? Like, what haven't you got over? And let's go in chronological order and talk about each thing until we, like, get to the bottom of it. And, yeah, Sarita was a big help in helping me take off my cool and take off my filter and get back to, like, really being myself. That's powerful. I resonate, you know? And I think earlier on in my path, too, I had like the being cool or like

not attached as kind of like a behavioral compensation. And, you know, I think it can be tough sometimes because there is like a natural, like there's a real nature to who, like who we are. And then, you know, these other kind of things that aren't really us, but can look like us and we can think that there are us that like that mask, that persona, that identity becomes who we are. And then we be, you know, we suffer off of that. I'm curious because you write so much about love and romantic relationships. How did that also come up in your relationship because it's such a, there's such big mirrors? Did that like avoidance, you know, kind of attachment style or like, you know, did the things eventually come up, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, it's been the same with me forever. Like, I can put it on

the song and it's as weird as like I'm putting it on a song and I'm playing it and I'm kind of looking, you know, the corner of my eye, like, did you hear that part or did you hear how I felt about that situation that we didn't talk about? But yeah, I tried to use it as a way to communicate, but I just realized over time that that wasn't the most efficient way to do things. And if you have somebody who's truly telling you, like, I'm here, you can talk to me about anything. I won't judge you. I'm here to listen. I'm here to, like, grow with you. After a while, you have to believe it. Like, especially if you, like, don't abide. by that and things still work out is like okay i really need to get my shit together because i'm not

trying to uh go back to 2016 and and have another free black moment and it's like i don't have to uh sabotage myself if i have people around me that truly care about me like i created this community for a reason it's like don't fuck it up now yeah man i just think of the nature of identity within especially for individuals that are able to make their passions their career like an artist in some ways it's incredibly liberating because it becomes the vessel for your own self-actualization. But I'm curious, has it ever been limiting for you and wanting to discover what are your passions outside of being a musician? And I'm discovering who you are outside of this person in this lane who does this thing.

Yeah, that was also that little window from second album to the most recent album. It was remembering like, I'm not just music like this. That's just not all of who I am. Like visual art was my first thing before I ever was able to write a poem. I was drawing and sketching. And I kind of abandoned that and picked music. It was like, I pick one. And I pick music.

But now I'm just at the point where I'm just like, what else do you care about? Like road trips, love them. Drawing still. Love it. One day you want to be a teacher of some sort. So it's just like, what do you want to be practicing or studying in the meantime? Like, is it music or is it like some other form of teaching? I have been taking as much time as I can to just go back into knowing myself and to get back into like reading more because that's another thing for me that I'm like my attention span when it comes to reading sometimes it's not as great as I want it to be.

But yeah, I've just been like back in a space of learning who I am and what I want to do outside of music. I would love one day to have like my own garden and to be able to like grow everything that I want to have. And I know that the same amount of practice that I put into making an album is the same amount of practice that I have to put into that. So slowly but surely, I've been figuring it out. And slowly but surely I have been like ticking boxes. So my next box is going to be go get your hands dirty and put something in the ground. And like let that be one less thing that you buy from the supermarket. Yeah. I love that.

I love that. I mean, yeah, we're just such multidimensional human beings. And like I said, it's an amazing gift. that you've found your thing and you're known for that thing. It's part of the building a brand is you have to clarify who you are and who you're not, you know.

But then I have a lot of artist friends too where that, I think I heard Gamerimate refer to where the mask can eat into the face of the wearer. Where you like you really believe like you're that. You really believe you're that person. I think I really believed I was who I was for free black, like the hair and everything. I had the free form dreads and I didn't make eye contact.

I performed looking down. ground it was like this whole thing that one day I just looked up and was just like cut your hair and not because like your hair can absolutely be your strength but for me I was like you're hiding like you're truly truly hiding and it's like there's a ceiling on like what you can do right now on the way that you move on stage the attention that you're giving people like there's a there's a limit on it right now and the only way that we can figure out what's next is you just got to start over So the first time that I cut my hair, I was running across the stage, my neck show. And I had never moved in that way before.

But it was like he got nothing to hide behind now. So now you have to truly entertain and truly connect. And look, people, I got LASIC. I could see people for the first time. It was like the whole thing. I was like, no hair, better eyes. And yeah, it's been really fun to like have those little markers where it was like, I thought I was that guy.

And he pretty much ran my life for a very long time. But he's so long gone now. so long. I think the older we grow, the more we go through many of those phases, like different roles we play, identities we hold from, you know, parental, societal, career, all these different things. The older we get, the more we transition through many different ones, and the more we see that none of them are us, actually. And so I'm curious, who do you think you truly are in your core and your essence, like the nature of your consciousness? I'm just curious, any thoughts you have regarding that? I'm just a giver. Like, that's as simple as that. I don't,

There's no, no crazy philosophy behind it. I just enjoy taking, like, care. It's something that I love to do. I love to cook. I love to, like, clean. I love to create music. I love to, like I say, be a useful listener. I love to have these types of dialogues.

Like, I am here to service and I am here to, like, learn. And that is the extent, like, I don't know everything who I am this year. It might be completely different next year. And I'm totally open to that now versus. five, six years ago where it was just like, no, this is how I am and it stays that way. Now I'm just at the point where I'm just like, I know myself right now, or I think I do, at least, but that could change at any moment and I'm just not tripping anymore. Like, I'm here to make mistakes.

I'm here to grow. I'm here to learn. I'm here to be frustrated sometimes. I'm here to bounce back from that frustration and create something new. Like, I am someone who just doesn't know shit. I don't know anything. I think that's the most powerful place to be, actually, you know, is. like acknowledging where we don't know.

It's like the birthplace of actually being able to know. And that gives me so much space too. Just like I said to be a sponge. Like I missed a very important period of my development. Like I said, just not truly having mentors or people to go to. So now I'm at the part of my life where it's like I'm 32, but I'm really feeling young and like a kid again.

It's like every time I get around someone who I'm just meeting, I'm just like, what can you tell me? Like what? You know, what can I learn? What can I take away from this conversation so that I can use it? something out. I love the simplicity and the humility of it. And yeah, I guess a couple podcasts back who he said this thing someone in India randomly told him or he's like sometimes in life you'll get what you want, sometimes in life you won't get what you want, but you can always give to life

who you are. Absolutely. And just keep on showing up with the best knowledge you have, with the best awareness you have. Yeah, because it changes things for sure. Like I have, you know, been on that path for a very long time and I've been able to see something go from like me pretending, you know, to perform in a mirror and pretending to make like noises like a crowd screaming to being on the stage and looking at it like, this is pretty crazy. Like this is, it's really real. I can do almost anything that I want to do in life. All I have to do is just continue to show up as myself and, you know, let what I'm doing

be rooted in something that's positive and say whatever prayers I need to say, do the right things so that my karma is good and yeah you look up and it's just like i said you're in studio with j cole or you're at a festival somewhere across the world where people you know english isn't even the first language but they're there and they're present and they feel and they relate and you're just like oh shit this is the weirdest most fun amazing most terrifying shit ever like i truly have the power to do anything and yeah that's that's a treat yeah true treat i love all these themes you're covering man And it just seems like as we grow as a human, our values change. And one of the things you mentioned was like the power of becoming a father.

And so when your daughter was born, I'm just curious seeing that reflection and stepping into fatherhood and being a girl dad, how did that shift things in you in terms of your values and that? It just made my honesty meter like really have to like, we got to raise the bar a little bit. So when you have a little thing that's looking at you for advice, for reassurance, for to honestly, sometimes just to copy you, like whatever the case may be, like having something around this, just all eyes on you at all time, just like, okay, cool. The responsibility is super high right now. And I think it was very fitting that I had a girl, like of all the love stories and, you know, different situations and feelings that I was trying to figure out.

out for me to be tasked with like, okay, now you get to raise a young lady. It's like, oh, this is icing on a cake. And it's honestly put me in such a softer spot. Like, I feel a lot more just equipped to, one, just deal with all of my relationships in my life and have every conversation that I need to have. And two, like, be a really, really fun, great parent. Like, I had great parents in their own respect, but I get to take what I got. from them and figure out like how to do even more. So having a girl has been, it's just like reset me,

you know, more than anything. Like anytime I'm with her, don't have to worry about shit, don't have to stress about anything. She is either playing basketball, playing video games, at breakdancing class, at music class, she's like doing all the things that I wish I could have done and had given her that freedom. It's just been, it's been a blessing. becoming a dad in conjunction with like obviously being an artist and in the industry that you're in, I feel like I would love to hear more about your journey as what you think is to be a man. Because a lot of artists like in that industry, I feel like just in general, like men are perceived like the stronger your ego is, the more successful you are and the more that you're the boss and being a girl dad. And then also being an artist who expresses so much authenticity and vulnerability, finding strength in your,

softness and not needing to be this persona, you know, in so many different levels. I'm just curious about what you think of that and settling into, like, what it means to be a man. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's just being able to own up to all my shit, like, you know, my mistakes. I'm willing to be accountable and, like, acknowledge them. And I'm willing to, like I said, just be a sponge and listen. I have never claimed to know everything. and, you know, in that I have, I mean, yeah, I truly don't have anyone in the whole entire world to impress, you know, besides my daughter.

So with that being said, it's not much of anything else that I need on me. Like, I don't need any armor for anything else. I don't need any attitude for anything else. I don't need any face or facade for anything else. It's just like I just owe honesty and I owe, you know, the moment of it's not. like impressing her only and everything else kind of like falls by the wayside so just become very natural for me to just like be myself which is I'm pretty like chill I'm pretty soft I don't like um tension I don't like uh to have to like go at it with folks and that kind of

translates into my relationship with her where it's just like if she has a feeling or anything like it's it's no issue for her to express herself there's no issue for her to be frustrated it's no issue for her to be upset. It's just like, let's talk about it. And then that teaches me when I go back out into the world. Just like anything I want to solve or figure out, all I have to do is just talk about it. I don't have to argue about it. Don't have to fight, stomp, cuss about it. Like, I can just say how I feel and leave it at that and everything will be fine. I'm sure just like having a daughter, there's so many reflections for like uncovering your own innocence, like your own fears. You briefly mentioned earlier like imposter syndrome and things that come up as an artist and

even in like pretty little fears and so much of your music, a lot of the lyrics are reflecting on you know, feeling these feelings, having these fears, making a choice, a decision outside of that anyways and alignment with who you want to be. And yeah, I'm curious how have you navigated comparison, imposter syndrome as an artist doubting yourself. What's that been like? Those moments really just remind me to like go back inwards and, you know, take as much time as I need for myself. Like there was a time where I was at the studio every single day and it felt, you know, really productive. And then that turned almost like abusive to myself. It was just like, all right, you've been here every day for who knows how long.

And your second project is coming up. And people are expecting something. They're expecting progression. They're expecting, I don't know, new features. They're expecting things to look, you know, more polished. And, you know, those expectations pair it with social media in general and just like the weight of so many different comments and opinions coming through. Pair it with everything else that is, you know, just like being in the music industry. I got to a place where things just started to slow down for me.

And I couldn't hear myself think and I couldn't feel myself like even able to. to put out a verse or a song of something that I like. So I recorded until it just stopped working. Like the button didn't work anymore. And then from there it was like, all right, well, now it's 3 a.m. and your head's down on the desk. And this song is not your favorite song at all. And now I'm just looking at it.

Like, am I where I'm supposed to be? Is this, like, the end of like whatever this journey is? Have I lost it? Like, what's, you know, so many different. questions were flying through my head at the time and it was just really good to remember, you know, with the help of my friends and with the help of the people that I care about, that, like, hey, you look like you're okay and it's great that you're doing this thing, but you're just, you're just not okay and I can see you. And it took me a minute to like really, really admit it.

And once I started to get into that space of just like acknowledging that. And like I said, talking to my therapist from there, it was just like, okay, cool. I'm not in some place that I shouldn't be in. I'm not unable to, like, create things. Like, I just need to talk a lot more, and I just need to, like, get these feelings out of my body. And, yeah, once I started to do that type of work, then the songs just started to roll out again.

It's kind of like the reward. It's like you don't get that reward. You don't get to, like, truly use your powers unless you do your work. So do the fucking work. You know, stay practicing as much as you can practice, even when it doesn't feel good or it doesn't feel comfortable. Like, just commit to it. You've done it before. You saw what it can do.

So don't get distracted by, like, the things that you've been able to do to the point where you're just not doing the work anymore. And I think that was, like, my biggest issue. It was, like, I felt like an imposter for a second because I just stopped doing the work. It's like, I did as much as I needed to to get to a certain place. And then I just did my, like, worked on my music craft. You know, just like, no, you got a lot more. more just like emotional, mental, spiritual things that you need to like uncover before you can graduate to whatever the next level is. So for a minute, you know, that, that wall of just

feeling like I wasn't graduating was kind of throwing me for a second. It was just confusing to do something like so effortlessly. And then one day it's like the button broke and just like, what the fuck's going on? And like, yeah, so practice and just submit into the process was something that got me right back on track. I want to unpack that committing to the process a little bit more because I think what really separates creatives that are able to find success, which you can define in any which way, you know, for you. But if you want to make a career out of it and be able to sustain yourself through your art,

I feel like the difference between creatives that make it there and don't is that devotion to the whatever it takes mentality and like working through all those feelings of self-doubt and no just have seen with my artist friends who like maybe take a break if not having made music for a little bit they're doing their own thing and then they come back and like do i still got it you know all like all these things that and so looking back on those times where you've had those emotions i guess what wisdom any other thoughts you you have when those stuff when that stuff comes up now of yeah imposter syndrome and all these things i would say honestly just do everything else besides whatever it is that you're like tripping about so for me it was am i taking care of my body you know

let's start there like what are you eating what time are you waking up what routines do you have is it going to be yoga today is it going to be kickboxing like put something on your schedule wake up every single day with some kind of purpose to do something healthy for your body food workout stretching meditation whatever it is do something for your body every single day and once i started to get a routine back going with that it was like oh duh how could i forget that like i do that i do better when I feel better. It's just such a simple concept. But yeah, if you focus on every single thing else, then whatever you're worried about starts to figure itself out. So it started with making sure my body was good. And then once I, like, had those check-ins, then it was, all right,

now when it comes to writing, like, don't put the pressure on it being like a song all the time. Like, what are your thoughts today? How do you feel today? What are you grateful for? What are your goals, where do you want to be in the next however many years, like, get back to writing just in general, like being in a creative writing class, like give yourself a prompt, do something that isn't just like, I need to make a song because I need to turn in this album. Leave that over there, come back to later. So taking care of my body for sure, giving myself writing exercises for sure. And just being in student mode overall just helped me like get rid of whatever that stress was during that time. So if I needed to find a masterclass, a documentary, somebody else's

album, a music video, it was just like, get back into being a fan because you've been in the field for so long that it seems like you forgot what it's like to like find something new that has nothing to do with you and to just appreciate it and feel excited about that. So those are like a couple of things for sure. And I'm still in family right now. Like the last three years, I feel like my curiosity just as far as other people has like gone back up, which was really what got me going in the first place. Like I remember doing my own thing and then discovering some of my favorite artists. Like I remember Frank Ocean in the beginning. I remember the weekend and the begin and Jene Aiko and James Fontleroy.

And it was like all of these things that just excited me so much that I ran to work on my things. It was like, ooh, that gives me such a good feeling. to give that feeling to somebody else. So being back in fan mode, the last few years has been like the upside to like everything that I've been doing creatively. Like I've just been going to concerts. And what was it? Day before yesterday, I went to a Clero concert and I didn't hit anybody on the management side.

I don't want to bother anybody. I bought me a ticket on ticket master. I put scarf over my head, shades on my face, hat down low. I stood in a GA line outside, scamp my ticket to get in and I just enjoyed the show by myself, myself there and just enjoy myself in the crowd and watch the show from beginning to end. And like moments like those just remind me of how I felt in the very beginning. It was like, don't you ever like lose that feeling or let that feeling get away from me because there's nothing more pure than just like being in a space that's safe and everybody's

like feeling the same thing and the music is beautiful and it's about someone else but you can relate to it. And yeah, like I need that, you know, in order to feel inspired. and I think I forgot it for a bit but I'm back at the place where it's just like I need to be out here and I need to be outside but not in that type of way like I want to go outside and like

do something that just makes me feel good as you started to like discover the things that inspire you that are in musicians and then you started you know with your recent album how do you navigate when something when your previous stuff

has been so successful it's like in order for you to perceive your new thing to be successful it has to be like a number one you know it's got to be so successful to reach the same level your other stuff has and you know i've again i've talked with my artist friends around this too and it's such an interesting thing some people get crippled by um and uh just navigating past performance comparing it with stuff you're going to make how have you kind of ease some some energy into that um i've honestly just learned to let all of that shit go like nice yeah like at first you know my first album you know it didn't chart at the top of billboard or nothing like that it may be so like 10 000 copies first week and you know streaming on

apple music and everything was doing really good like the attention was going up but from a number standpoint nobody could have called that like it was going to go on to become like platinum like i wanted it to but nobody could have just predicted that that was just something that it was its own thing it did what exactly what it was designed to do and a lot of that was out of my control like once i recorded it and put it out into the world like it was up to everybody else to say this is something i appreciate so much that i want to share it and then they share it and then they share it and then it turns into this like bigger thing but um you know it was nice to have that moment because it was just its own thing and then the second album came around and i think that was

was the one that just commercially felt like it checked all the label boxes. It was like you had a really great first week. It's number one on the R&B charts and da-da-da-da-da. And you got the feature with Jake Cole and Future. And it was a commercially satisfying album and not from like a creative standpoint, but just a metric standpoint. It was like, okay, this is everybody's happy right now. Everybody who works on my shit right now is feeling like, oh, yeah, we did.

We did exactly what we were supposed to do. And then this one, the most recent one, was the one where I knew going into it. I'm like, I'm not making songs for radio. I'm not making songs for playlist necessarily. I'm not trying to service any specific, like, entity right now. I just have a journal entry that I want to put out. Like, these are the things that I've been going through from the pandemic until now. These are the feelings that I'm wrestling with.

This is the love that I'm trying to figure out. and I don't have any like grand or like specific expectation for it. It was just, I just want to put it out. Like I just want to be honest. Like we were talking about earlier, just like I want to be able to say how I felt. I stayed true to it. And I gave people something that just like captured me in that moment. And that way I can, however many years can go by and I can always feel like, oh yeah,

that was what I was going through during that time. That was true. That was honest. So with this one, I just took off. all the expectation. And it made it a lot easier. You know, it made it a lot more,

just fun for me to not care about what people are saying or not care about how they're ranking it or what they're comparing it to. It was just, you're not going to get this from anybody else. Like, this is, there's one me, the same way that there's one you, the same way that there's one, everybody else. It's like, this is me.

I feel good about it. And that's the only thing that matters. Yeah, just feeling proud of your own body of work. I love that. You mentioned some like practices that you have that help keep you that like that build that emotional foundation and just like health, mind, body spirit. What else has been big for you in that space of just creating practices that allow you to tap in, know yourself, all of that? Besides working out, besides writing exercises, honestly just the overall concept of routine. Like, you know, I think that if you are, like, designing, like, the way that you want most of your days to go, then you kind of set yourself up for success.

Like, the difference between how I handle a conversation, you know, if I just, like, roll over and start my day on my phone and skip, like, eating something that's good for me and maybe I lay down, like, a little bit longer than I should. And then, you know, I get a call and it's not my favorite call and how I'm responding to. it is just not the best way. Like the difference between doing my day like that versus waking up between five and seven because I got good rest and eating something good, stretching, writing something down, meditating and like sitting with myself for a second. Like it's just light years apart. It's like by the time I make it on the phone and I'm having a conversation I don't really want to have,

I feel just more equipped and responsible with like the things that I'm saying. It's like, okay, well, I'm coming from a good place right now. I started my day right. So I don't appreciate that, but I can communicate that in a way that's not going to fuck anything up for me. So I think the overall concept of routine is like the things help me the most. It's like when I have at least five to seven things that I want to get done and I stick to it, by the time 12 noon, 1 p.m. 2 p.m. rolls by, I feel so in control of my day that it's just like now I can reward myself with making something or resting if I want to rest. And yeah, it's just a lot smoother when you give yourself something to be disciplined about. So without that discipline there, you just kind of leave it open for life to do with something.

Yeah. I saw you had a conversation with Sad Guru. And I'm just curious, like, how meditation has played a role in your life and your journey, meeting him, just anything around there. Honestly, like, I've always sat with my thoughts. So being able to do it an organized way was, like, the key for me to really, like, getting my life in order. Did you go to the ashram in Tennessee or did you just do?

No, I didn't get to go. But yeah, like for me, like I get most of my work done when I'm sitting in silence. So, you know, for there to be a structure around that just makes it so that my life is a lot more efficient in the things that I want to do and that I care about and that I want to get done or just how I feel in general. Like it's just it's in a better place when I can like truly sit down and sit with my thoughts. Yeah, for the most part, every morning when I wake up, I try and take at least 10 minutes. I have like some different like soundscapes that also help me just like drown everything else up

because you already know how it is when you are trying to sit in silence. And then it's just like, what did you eat yesterday? But the more practice, you know, that I get with it, the better I get at it and the more clear I feel. And yeah. Yeah, I was just writing something about the power of silence the other day. I'd love to just hear your thoughts about the power of silence because silence is the backdrop in which all sound exists. And if you're going to make a melody or put notes to a song, silence is what enables that, you know, is the backdrop. And just like how there's silence behind music and the navigation of that silence is what changes a song, there is a backdrop of silence and awareness to the commotion of our own thoughts and emotions.

and I feel like the more that you tap into that place of silence within you, the more that you realize that place of awareness and consciousness within you, you can more effortlessly navigate your own thoughts and emotions instead of having them control you and being so compulsive with your life. For sure. This guy's similar to like thinking before you speak for most part. Like anytime I hear music, that moves me. I'm not just like jumping out, like spitting ideas for everybody to hear like,

yo listen to this. It's like, I'll take a minute. I feel it out. Okay, how does this beat make me feel? Okay. What is going to? on in my life or what has happened in my life or is it even in relation to my life like what's the story that you want to convey now let you know the feeling and then from there like

you said all of this is like happening in silence first and then once I do like that that bit of like constructing internally then by the time I actually am ready to put something out it is a lot more thought out than than it would have been if I just would have just blurted and still sometimes it's cool to to blur it but for the most part I I love to operate in a space that's just controlled and allows me to really, really think. And I've been in studios too, whereas the opposite of that. And it becomes like a test for me. It's like, okay, you're really good at working in silence.

And you're really good at pulling things like out of solitude and like having those moments for yourself. But life is not always going to give you that. So what can you produce? And, you know, how can you produce when life isn't set up in a way that you feel is more efficient for you? So I think getting the practice in silence also helps me have a bit more doing it that way. Just really puts me in a space to be able to navigate a little bit better when I get in other situations. It's like, okay, cool, now you have to test yourself. That's another thing for me is just how many ways can I test myself versus if it doesn't make me comfortable, then I just won't do it.

It's like, no, you can get something. This might be like 20 people in here. Weat smoke might be everywhere. Door is opening and closing. Not your session, but you're part of the session. So how are you going to handle there? You're going to get no work done? Or are you just going to try it out?

And at least you can say you try it out. I'm super grateful to talk to many different types of people on this podcast. And sometimes scientists or physicists and people who are doing great work in the world. And it seems like a theme, a golden thread throughout all of them, is that some of their greatest ideas and moments come in the surrender, the let go, and the silence where there might be a lot of physical or energetic exertion trying to create something. And then you're just like, just like let it go and just like sit for a moment.

And then something comes in. And I'd be curious to hear your shift as a creative. There can be this perspective shift from thinking that things come from you to things come through you. And the more you're receptive as an artist and anything you're doing in life, the more you can navigate that field of information where everything already exists. And then you can find the thing that wants to come through you and that you resonate with. So how does that resonate with you? And then also are the specific moments where you felt that like this really were something that came through you.

Yeah, for sure. Obviously resonate with that. And it's been in every moment that like I said, you feel spirit. Like there's a difference, you know, in me listening to a song and feeling like, okay, this is a cool song. This is a good song. Or I like the song versus like I said, having those moments. I'm literally becoming a full on creature because there's a feeling taking over my body right now. Like, I remember working on the Free Black album, and it was an amazing process all the way throughout,

but I didn't have the title of the album, the theme of the album, you know, on paper or anywhere until the very, very end. Like, I made the title track at the very end. After I had maybe like a 12-hour journey. on the beach, in the studio, in the apartment that I was staying. And it was a whole day dedicated to, like, truly taking care of myself and tapping in and listening to music and just, like, letting go of any outside thoughts for a second. And then after I had the moment of silence, it was like, okay, now let's bring all the thoughts together.

And let's just go through things, like, in an order, like, what happened at four years old? How do you feel about that? Okay, cool. What's happening right now? How do you feel about that? Like, it was a day just dedicated to talking to myself, really, like, having some silence. talking to myself and after that 12-hour experience I got back to the studio and I remember there was a beat that I had heard a bunch of times before but I never heard a song for it and then for

whatever reason that day I pressed play on it and my body was just like I hear the melody I feel the words and I couldn't have like rehearsed this or thought it up it's just like something that's taken over me right now. And I remember like writing or like recording the first couple of lines. And immediately I was just smiling from here to ear. I was just like I'm about to make another one of the

songs. It was like I'm about to do something like really really special. And those were cool moments for me in the studio because it's like like you said like I feel something coming through me right now. I'm like nobody come in here. Like let me just like have a little bit of privacy for a minute. And yeah, I made the song called Free. And it was

a title track of the first album. And I remember inviting everybody back in the studio. Just like, I don't know, I was just on such a high, bro. Like, my body was satisfied. My mind was satisfied. What I had gone through, like, previously, like, everything felt like it led up to this moment of just saying it out loud on the song. Like, now I'm feeling freer than I've ever been. And just feeling that one line enough to know, like, wow, this is truly an example of, like, letting go.

And, you know, letting God work. and not having any thing or anyone might distract you in a moment. Just let it out. Like however it feels natural to you, let it out. Made that song and played it for everybody and immediately we were all just like free black, free black, free black, free black. And it just started saying it like a mantra

and everybody was like, yeah, I think that's the album title. That's it. And yeah, it's been moments like those for each album. There's always been a moment. And ironically for me, it's all, always been the title track. It's always been like naming the album because I don't normally pick them beforehand. It's like I create and I figure it out as I go.

And it was the same for Issela and I love that the album was pretty much almost done. And Jakub, a producer that I'm really, really close with, I heard some piano keys and heard the music that he worked on and immediately it was like, everybody out. Like, here we go again. Like just get out before I lose it, get out before I lose it. And again, just I sometimes it feels. feels like I'm not even like writing in those moments. It's like I don't know how it's coming through me right now, but but it is, you know, and those are just moments of like really being aligned

and really being like, like I said, having those routines for myself and respecting myself in a way to where like now I get to see the reward of it. Like I'm taking care of myself and now that has a reward for me. It's like, okay, cool. It happened with free, happened with Eastland and a love letter and it happened with since I have a lover. It was like these are moments where it's like here's the audio reward of, you know, like all the work that you've been doing. Like, you didn't have to think too hard about this song. Like you heard some music, it inspired you and now it's just flowing through you. Yes. It really feels like those gifts or rewards come by committing through the messiness of the greater process, which it is. For sure, for sure, for sure. And it's

cool to like, to learn from like all the messiness and to really break out of like, like, I feel like there was a time period where it almost was like a bedish to be in a bad space. It was like a bad space. It was like you kind of get not obsessed, but you just kind of. It's like romanticize. Yeah, it's like you romanticize like the struggle and like the heartache and turmoil. And then after a while I was like, does it really have to still be this way? It's like five, six years later.

It's like, do you really want to still be singing the same, same song? So it's cool to learn from the mess, you know, and to be able to look back and say like, there was a time where I wasn't learning from the mess, and now I'm growing up, and it feels really good to like, to just, like, honor myself the right way and to know that my life is forever changing and the only person who can ever stop that as me. What do you think are some of, like, the realist or Ross lyrics you've wrote on track? Hmm. Um, one of my favorite verses is a verse on a Kalani song, um, RPG.

and I think that was a moment where I wasn't in the best space and I don't think that like everything that I was dealing with, whether it was fatherhood relationship, like my romantic relationship, relationship with the mother of my child, like relationship with my family, like I was just in such a space where I just didn't have answers for anybody and I really didn't know like how to communicate that without sounding bad, you know, like without sounding like it was coming from a bad space. So that song was like a moment that gave me another one of those like vehicle opportunities to like know how I felt like even to myself because I sometimes I just really don't know. And I think that verse is like one of the most honest verses for me. I'm trying to

remember how it started. I don't want to make you think that I'm saying things because you prompted me. I'm working with a lag of fucked up past. I want you to be proud of me. It feels like day one you were fond of me, same way I felt for you, then I fell for you, fell in life, it's embarrassing to tell the truth. But now it's to the point where my love is up for a debate and maybe it's too late to shape. I think love is shown, you think love is spoken and we both come in from the same place. For every song that I write, it's a note to self, note to God, note to you, don't count me out besides this and my daughter, I only got love for you. I've been suppressed, I ain't the best, roll up the problems, smoke all the stress, we got way too much, it on the line,

You can't see emotions got you blind Past life regression Lifetime lessons Carrying a message Real Life Angels Battling Depression And that song was like Writing that verse

It's like I'm like working out All these uncomfortable feelings right now It's like It just felt so good to get it out And to know like You're not a bad person Your situations

Like don't dictate like who you are You just have to figure out How to express it Yeah Man Creating is therapy. It is, man. It is, man. What emotions are brought up for you and thinking about that? I mean, I just think about, like, where I was and I think about how tough it felt, you know,

to have answers and, and how difficult it is, you know, sometimes to tell people, like, I just don't know. Like, I don't know. It's not like my favorite answer, but over time it's become one that I'm, like, a lot more comfortable with. It's just sometimes I just don't know. And if I can at least say it up front, then at the very least like i'm just being true so yeah yeah just take me back to not knowing and not knowing if saying i don't know it's safe it's like is it safe to tell somebody like i don't know what to do right now or i don't know how to feel right now or i don't know how to fix this right now like that verse was definitely one that helped me just get all those feelings out yeah you felt do you feel like you felt you felt lost around that time a little bit for sure for sure for sure it was it was tough

Like I said, growing up, the way I grew up, you know, figuring out your career in your young adulthood, becoming responsible for dozens of people, you know, who work with you, balancing fatherhood, balancing your career being on a road, missing out on certain moments, having to figure out how to be like the right type of partner, like all of that stuff was like, my head was like split like 10 different ways. and, you know, you're just trying to stay afloat in the midst of all of it. And, yeah, thank God for, like, just creative expression, bro. Like, I took my time and I did as much work as I could have done,

not to say that I'm, like, done or halfway done or anything, but I did a good amount of work. And, you know, getting to the root of certain things definitely just put me in a way of better space to where I just, I'm a lot more content with, like, the way that I respond to things. 100%. Man, what a gift to have the creative outlet where you can just, in other ways you probably wouldn't have, express your truth and give words to feelings and emotions and the chaos that's around you or inside of you, that you probably just wouldn't talk about unless you had like,

you were given the permission to like, I want to make something real right now and this, you know. Yeah, and that's like, that's honestly why I just couldn't see myself doing it any other way. It's like if I can make a verse that makes somebody else feel something or makes me feel something like that. And in that type of way, it's just like, that's really the only path that I could ever like see fit for me. It's like that's what I need. That's what's fulfilling to me to be able to like have a moment like this. Where we're talking about something that I know is important to me. But even in writing it and expressing it and appreciating it, never cried about it ever.

You know, never once in my life and performing it and listening to it has. it ever like I think that's like the also the reward and also the resolution and like the point and purpose of doing it is to get that out other people to feel it and then I get to spend a lot later and be like actually like that really makes me feel something. Have you felt the same creative inspiration and being ignited as as you've grown as a person if you get more context for like becoming just healthy in your mind and body like you said it can be romanticized to only talk about being in the mud, you know? Yeah.

And like, yeah, do you feel like you've given yourself permission to just speak more to the light as you've been growing, obviously, with your last album. For sure. I think, like, we all know that it's not typically, like, the cool thing to talk about being in a better space or to talk about... Think about the biggest movies or biggest songs. They're, like, about heartbreak. Always.

Always. So I know it's not what's popular. But I also know that we have the power to change what's popular. So, you know, it's the same as where we're talking about. talking about earlier in reference to just like healthier eating and things like you just would never know unless somebody put it in front of you so for me it's just like my job is to put it in front of people like I don't have any other um task in you know in this music thing for me besides like now where I'm at making things that feel honest and like represent growth pushing those like on the table and

whoever takes it is whoever takes it so uh since I have a lover like that album for me was being able to say like it feels good to feel good and you know this isn't like an album of like having all my shit together it's just an album of knowing like I'm I know better now like and if I know better like life is just starting to like blossom in a lot of different ways so yeah knowing knowing better is fun feeling better is fun and giving people an opportunity to like express a different emotion it's like it's super cool because they don't need any like more of the other shit like it's plenty of that if I ever need to express myself in that way again I know how to like if I ever find myself in a tough place it's there like the the ability to create from that space is there but it's on the

back burner now like I don't uh I don't need to to lean into that you know for any reason other than if it's actually happening yeah it really feels like there's just an infinite amount of paths of self-realization and actualization and it can for many you know periods be deep silence and meditation and then I love having Stephen Pressfield on the podcast talking about how we really discover so much of who we are in the works in our work in the world and how what we're going to create and yeah just I feel like we just learned so much of ourselves in the sharing of our creativity for sure yeah it's and like for me and for the people that I know and for men honestly I feel like we are a bit behind when it comes to like the category of sharing

Like community is a lot more visible when it, when it comes to just the women in my life, I can see the community and feel the community so clearly. But for guys, it's like, you know, I don't want to talk about that or I don't want to look, you know, weak or weird or unable or incapable. It's like all these other things kind of block you from just sharing. And the more I share, the better I feel, you know, whether it be music or whether it just be like having. in real conversations with other people that I care about. You know, like, I have been able to change my life, you know, just by allowing space for, you know, myself to share with other people, but for them to share with me, like, what am I not doing right?

What could I say better? How could I, like, make you feel better in the situation? Where are you going through? What am I going through? Like, that just the activity of sharing in general has been one that's just like, okay, let me commit to that as well. because, yeah, just leaning into it has tons of benefits and the results have been pretty nice. Do you have guys or brothers in your life where you feel like you guys go there in terms of like those conversations?

Not enough. Not enough, yeah. I feel like we're all on the path to figuring it out. It's a little bit late for us, but, you know, we got plenty of life left. So I think like at the very least knowing like we need to talk more. We need to meet more. need to share more. Checking in on each other, like, those things have become more important in the last five

years. Yeah. Where it's just, like, it wasn't even a combo before. Anything that was serious was a joke. It was just like, oh, that's what happened to you today. Well, you should never da-da-da-da-da. It turned into like a joke, but deep down it's like, maybe we should spend some time on that. Right.

You know, maybe this isn't like a laughing, you know, group chat type of situation. Like, maybe I need to just pull up on you and just actually see how you've been doing. So I think that's become more important in the last few years. years. And with that, I've been able to see all of my, like, friends in that respect, like, grow in their own ways, you know, versus years ago when the, the pressure of what I was going through kind of turned me off from anyone else's things and whatever they were going through. It was the same. Everybody was just kind of in their own corners, but, you know, still having love for each other. But it was just like, I don't really know how to talk about my shit.

And they did not have to talk about their shit. And it just turned into a big group chat of men who just can't express them. Right, right. Or just like deflecting and joking about everything, which, you know, it has its benefits when it actually is. Totally. The time for it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, man. Community is so important. And I have a men's group. And it's just, it's been so impactful, I think, to watch men being specifically in the presence of other men, expressing their vulnerabilities, just being real. and being just a space of non-judgment, you know, because like you said, it's so easy to have to just make fun of and let up stuff that would actually probably be helpful to talk through.

For sure, for sure. And not just have it be that, but also play, have fun, joke around, all of it. You know, can you be too serious sometimes? Just any type of community. Like, I feel like it's just all super, super necessary for us. Like, we should be learning from our friends that are women and, like, just taking bits of what they do

and putting it into our everyday life. They do it for a reason. Like, it literally works. Like, they have had, like, either longer relationships or more impactful, like, moments or turnarounds or memories or, like, the help is just something that I've admired, you know, for a while. And, like, I said, we're finally at the part where it's like, let me actually borrow that. Maybe, like, I should pull up on the homies and, like, they can kick it at my house tonight

or I'll kick it over their house tonight. Or we can plan, like, a trip to North Georgia and, like, chilling and, mountains, like, whatever we can do to, like, start to break whatever that is on us that was just stopping us from efficiently communicating and checking in on each other, like, the right way. Yeah, powerful, man. I love that. I just want to ask you about, because I'm sure there's been so many defining moments throughout

your life, one that stuck out to me was a car accident that you ran younger. What do you think that, like, just tell me, tell us a little bit more about that time and, like, what happened afterwards and how, like, what shifted into you? Yeah. This was somewhere in Florida, not South Florida, maybe like Central Florida. Could have been like Tampa. Kind of a blur now. But it was during the time where I didn't have any big singles out or anything. So I was still in just regular struggling artists phase in my life. And it was a moment of we can stay where we are tonight. It was maybe like four of us in one car, four or five of us. Or we can.

and get on the road tonight and head back to where we came from. And late at night, it was after a Denzel Curry concert. We decided to get back on the road because somebody volunteered that they were good enough to drive. And I remember everything being silent and everybody being asleep for the most part, but I'm not really like that type of sleeper when it comes to being in cars and other people are in control. So I'm fully aware of everything that's going on, and I kind of feel as drift. a bit and I open my eyes and I see it's gone towards the median and right before I could say anything like I guess somebody tapped him and kind of spooked him and he grabbed

the wheel and we started spinning out of control and in those moments I they say like time slows down in those moments sometimes and you can almost like think through every single thought that that's happening right now so I was like I'm in my head and I'm like I know we're spinning really fast right now. Let me like hold on to this. Also if we're spinning this fast right now, that means we're about to flip for sure. So let me like brace myself for that.

We start flipping. I'm like, okay, cool. Now I'm at the part where it's just like, all I got to do is like hold on and when this is over like you'll be good, everything will be fine. Just stay calm. And we span, we span, we spun, we spun,

we flipped. And I also remember just thinking like I don't want to sound like completely in control of my life but I for sure I was like this is not how you die. Like you got too much to do too much life ahead. Haven't, you know, even gotten to the point where you could honestly feel like is this it? It was like, no, this is absolutely not it. I just have to like trust that. And Carla ended upside down in a ditch. I didn't have my seatbelt on. But, miraculously, I was a-okay, like, hardly a scratch, hardly a bruise, anything, crawled out the car,

and sat in the grass and over and over for maybe like the next 10 minutes, it was just, thank you God, thank you God, thank you God, thank you God, thank you God, everybody's like doing their own thing. Somebody's like crying in the background, somebody's screaming, what the fuck, I'm just like sitting in the crash, just like, thank you God, thank you God. But in that moment, like, those are very, very key moments that remind you to just, like, really, really, like, take care of your shit while you're here. It could be any moment that, like, something happens. And next thing, you know, you're wondering, like, is this it? So that moment for me was, like, another moment of you get back home and whatever it is you need to do to, like, really, really enjoy your life and really, really, like, get the most out of it.

like this is the time for you to remember that and take it serious because it could have been different it could have been any other type of situation somebody could have got seriously hurt we could have lost a friend that day but yeah miraculously scratch-free and more inspired than ever to just like be present and to go on and like do something with that feeling it like it re-energize me you know it made me feel um ready to to to to to to create, ready to travel, ready to

breathe fucking oxygen again. I was just happy to be alive. Man, it feels like death really is the strongest bringer of life. And when we face death, we're like forced with presence. It could be the death of a relationship, the potential death of ourselves or a loved one. You just

realize the power of being alive and how much we often have taken ever granted. Yeah, no, I never appreciated breathing so much after that. Yeah. Yeah, super happy to be here. And there's been like a couple of moments like that where, like, I, you know, growing up on the east side in Atlanta, there were a couple moments where you don't think

you're going to make it home or you end up in a situation where it's like I could definitely die right here. And, you know, each time it's pushed me closer and closer towards my purpose. It was like, okay, maybe I shouldn't be in this neighborhood. like hanging out in this type of way or maybe I need to stop smoking or maybe these aren't the right friends for me or um it was just like pushing me every time something happens like you are in control of your situation and you are curating your life right now so it's just like for the pieces that you are in control of like just do better or else yeah do better or else well I'm glad you're

here too man and the world's better for it um yeah I've loved this conversation there's been so many unique avenues and you're just such a deep guy and an incredible man, artist, father, all of it. Thank you. Do you have any other last thoughts or things you like to share with our audience or anything where you start to wrap up? I would just say, like, while you are here on this earth and you get to have the experiences that we get to have, like, honor yourself as much as you can, you know, respect yourself

as much as you can, have grace for yourself. as much as you can, have gratitude for the things that you have as much as you can, even if you feel like you don't have that much, like, it could always be worse. It could always be something else. You could, it could always be nothing at all. So, yeah, just honor yourself while you're here and have as much fun as you can and be true to who you are. And, like, things will just start to open up for you.

Like, I am forever grateful, you know, to be able to do something to where I can change and impact, like, millions of people with the, of people. upload of a song or project. Like that is a superpower. And I've been able to see the real-time effect of it. And it just helps me remember my responsibility and my place and my purpose while I'm here. And if you can figure out what yours is, I think it just ends up connecting like the web. And then things just get better for everybody.

So know yourself, respect yourself, love yourself, trust yourself. And yeah, better you, the better me, the better us. I love that bro Such a powerful reminder It's one quote I'm forgetting from who it is But says something along the lines If we don't need more people

To try to change the world But find what makes you come most alive Yeah And in doing so you will change the world Yep A whole bunch of individuals Who are like Just in their thing and in their flow

And like taking care of themselves And feeling good It just it's infectious It just turns into a group of us That are all doing the same thing And their relation is a lot easier and communicating is a lot easier. And figuring out, you know, hard things.

They are a lot easier. It's just like, take care of you. And somebody will see that and be like, oh, let me do the same thing. Like, that's how it was for me. Like seeing other people who really, like I say, honored themselves, inspired me to like, hmm, what can I be doing to really, really love on myself, like as much as I possibly can. And, yeah, the more I do that, just the more beautiful my life is.

Amazing, man. Dude, thank you so much for coming on. I feel like I love this podcast, not just for the conversations I have, but like the friends that I make in the conversation. And so I'm just excited to connect more off, off air. And yeah, man, just last thing is like do you, anything that's coming up for you in terms of creative projects or like things that I just love to hear anything you're working on? Right now I am giving myself like a goal to get another project done. Like, as soon as I can, but not in like a stressful rushing way, but more in like a, I know in the past what I've been able to do in three or four months. And I think over time, in between albums, it turns into like years.

So for me, I would love to see what I could do in less than year, you know, like if it's a mixtape, if it's an album, if it's an EP, whatever the idea is, I'm holding myself to getting something done, hopefully before the holiday. Epic. Good stuff, bro. Again, just thank you so much everywhere. You guys who are tuning in, can find Black's music. You know, we'll be linked down in the description below. And yeah, let us know. I'm so curious to hear in which ways this conversation was uniquely impactful for you as I have more conversations on the show and we keep expanding who we're bringing on. I really am enjoying, diversifying the conversations and talking to people to help us know who we truly are in the world around us, thrive mentally, physically, financially, relationships, then ultimately create

from that place of authenticity what we want to share in the world. And there's so many insights throughout this conversation. And let us know what your favorite was. Until next time, be well. Take care.