Know Thyself - E133 - Azrya Bequer: Transform Pain into Purpose & Grief into Gold

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

After the tragic fires that burned through LA, we are joined by Azrya Bequer who lost her home in the blaze. In this episode, she opens up about the process of transmuting grief into grace and leaning into a deeper trust throughout the heartbreaking situation.  She shares the importance of embracing the ever-changing nature of life, cultivating a deeper sense of trust and intuition, and making meaning out of pain. This episode is an impactful one for anyone looking to better navigate life’s challenges and strengthen their resiliency.  Azrya, who has also coached countless leaders and high-performers over the years, shares her insights into walking a path of spiritual entrepreneurship - empowering us with the knowledge of how to merge the material and the metaphysical.  André's Book Recommendations: https://www.knowthyself.one/books ___________ 0:00 Intro 1:44 Losing Her Home in the LA Fires 11:33 A Poem: Alchemizing Grief Into Gold 17:42 The Greater Perspective on Grief 23:29 Making Meaning From Tragedy: How LA Must Change 30:47 Embracing the Ever-Changing Nature of Life 35:28 Walking Towards the Fire of Life 44:05 Why We Fear Feeling (And How to Change that) 47:35 Operating From a Deeper Intelligence  53:18 Discerning Your Intuition from the Noise 57:15 Trusting the Cycles of Life: Leaning Into the Ups & Downs 1:03:02 Feeling the Depths of Grief 1:08:00 The Path of Spiritual Entrepreneurship  1:13:30 Merging the Material and the Metaphysical 1:19:55 Enlightened Leadership 1:25:23 Envisioning & Stewarding a Greater Future 1:38:00 Difference Between Ownership & Stewardship 1:41:12 Conclusion ___________ Azrya Bequer is the Co-Founding Steward of KAVANÂ, a 30-acre retreat center and learning institute on the South-Pacific coast of Mexico that serves as a nexus of gathering for a community committed to personal and social transformation.She is also a Co-Steward of MUSA, a 500+acre, beachfront residential development and town of the future. Bequer has dedicated her past decade to empowering purpose-driven leaders, entrepreneurs and creatives. To support this work, Azrya and her husband Benjamin co-authored the BEQOMING book and developed a unique, in-depth methodology that integrates leadership, coaching, breathwork, indigenous wisdom traditions, and other embodiment practices. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/azryabequer/?hl=en “In Life We Trust” LA Fire Initative: https://inlifewetrust.co/ Azrya's Offerings: www.kavanaretreats.com/offerings Azrya’s Telegram: https://www.kavanaretreats.com/azrya-telegram ___________ Know Thyself Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ Website: https://www.knowthyself.one Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKg Listen to all episodes on Audio:  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927 André Duqum Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/

They say it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. The Palisades Fire that took many, many thousands of houses in LA also took our home in Malibu, which was really more than a home. The heat of that fire must have been so incredibly hot. I can't even imagine the speed at which that whole house must have just gone up and smoke. So much went into that place. It's humbling. There's so much paradox in the spiritual journey.

Sometimes you have to have it. everything stripped away all the way to nothing before you're willing to actually make a change. Trust is a beautiful thing. The way to get there is actually to be forced into the opposite. Because I do choose to believe that everything has a purpose. I can choose to be a victim of the situation where I can see that life is mirroring something to me and giving me an opportunity to come into deeper alignment with who I say I want to be. Being a steward of the current of life itself to me is the ultimate expression of being alive. And that's where I find the trust. And that's where I find the beauty. And that's where I find the richness.

Hey everyone, welcome back to know our guest today is a co-founding steward of Kavanaugh, and she focuses and has been for over a decade really supporting and coaching, entrepreneurs, leaders, creatives, through courses, retreats. And she's a dear friend of mine, and this has been a wild start to the year.

Asria Beckert, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a while since we've seen each other. It was. I was just closing my eyes to listen to how you were introducing me. I was curious to hear you mirror back to me, what I do, who I am in the world. That's the thing is you do many things.

I do many things. Yeah. How's the start to the New Year, Ben, for you? Well, my house melted, so that happened in an inferno, like truly an inferno. So, yeah, the Palisades fire that took down. many, many thousands of houses in L.A. also took our home in Malibu, which was really more than a home. It was really a space for convergence and transformation and community and a space that was being actively used to really unite people in person and dig deep and anchor in really important energy and frequencies into the L.A. grid. That's really the true intention of it.

So my co-founder and husband Benjamin and I went back a couple weeks ago to just see the damage and really kind of feel like in our own nervous system what's left of this place that we spent almost three years remodeling and had been done for less than a year before it burned. And it was crazy to see metal beams that we had put in. like melted. Like the heat of that fire must have been so incredibly hot. I can't even imagine the speed at which that whole house must have just gone up and smoke. Like incredible. Sometimes I have weird like visuals of the house just being taken by these flames. And there's something oddly beautiful about it as well, you know? I think the part of me that could appreciate

the destructive aspects of nature and reality and see them see the beauty in those two is almost like enamored by those visuals because it's incredible how much went into the house, right? Like two years of planning, almost three years of construction, thousands of hours, millions of dollars, so many materials, like the amount of effort and energy that humans put into building something and then in literally what might have been a few minutes.

nature was just like, no, no more. So, yeah, it's humbling. Yeah. Before we continue to dive into a lot of the insight, lessons and stuff that I know we both love to jump into, what was the actual process for you in discovering the fires were happening, being in the uncertainty phase, then eventually standing on the land where your house once was? Well, we had gone through it a couple weeks before because we were, there was a fire actually. a few weeks before, which was much, much smaller and contained very quickly. And we were right on the edge of the evacuation zone. So we had kind of gone through the process of like getting the

alert and packing our bags and being kind of annoyed because it's like, well, we know we're going to have to unpack all this stuff anyway. And like, this is just this distraction from all the things we have to do. So last time we lost power for, you know, a couple days and we stayed at home and we didn't end up having to evacuate and then everything was okay. So when this time around, when I think it was Tuesday at like 11 in the morning or so. We were sitting at our dining room table having a meeting with our team on Zoom. And I looked up and I saw a huge plume of smoke in the sky. And I was like, oh, that doesn't look good.

And we actually stayed on the Zoom call for like another 45 minutes because, again, relentless overachievers. We're like, it'll be fine. We just really need to get this meeting done. But I started looking at the app. and tracking kind of what was happening. And I could see that, you know, it looked like it was starting to become a problem. And we were starting to see that we were in the evacuation warning zone. So at that point, we kind of like shut things down and went and started packing.

And we packed very haphazardly. We were like, we're just going to come back and, you know, like, again, just unpack everything and it'll be fine. And then we got the evacuation warning. It's like, now you need to go now. So we got in the car and we drove. drove down the mountain and it felt everything felt very peaceful still. There was a lot of smoke in the sky, but the neighborhood kind of felt peaceful. And so we ended up actually driving down to the mountain and being like, okay, I think we're okay. And then a cop came by and was like, you guys need to go.

And so we went back to the house and packed again, which was really good. I'm so grateful we went back the second time. So we packed more thoroughly. And then I just stood. Our house is kind of up on a hill and I stood and looked over the land, which is like this big canyon land. It's like a big bowl. And the wind was whipping and there was a bunch of smoke in the sky and I just placed a prayer of protection on the land. And I said, like, just may the legacy of this land be preserved because I believe that the space is meant to continue to serve the LA community.

And we had actually just recommitted to the place because we were, the plan was to sell it to be able to fund our Mexico project. And literally, like, a week before, we had been like, you know what, I think we're going to stay. I think we're not going to sell. And so we had gone through this deep emotional process with this land and the stewardship of this place. And what's interesting is now that I reflect on it, I place that prayer of protection on the land, not on the house. And, yeah, we drove down the mountain, and we went to Newport in Orange County just to stay with family. And we were just watching on the map, like, as this, the fire just like, I mean, the speed at which it was spreading was unbelievable.

And soon our entire neighborhood was completely engulfed in the red, like the worst red that you don't want to see on the map. But there was no way to know what was burned and what wasn't. And the winds were so out of control that there was no, you know, nothing was flying. So there was no coverage from any of the news channels. So the uncertainty was really like the biggest thing, was just sitting in the uncertainty of not knowing. And all of our friends getting evacuated into Panga. And it was incredibly intense, like emotionally. And also I had this very interesting experience where the second night after we had evacuated in the middle of the night,

I woke up and I don't know for a fact, but it's very possible that our house was burning at that exact moment. and I woke up in the middle of the night and I was bathed in this like bubble of bliss like I can't even explain it it was just like being wrapped like in the arms of the divine like that's what it felt like and I just remember waking up and feeling it and being like I wonder if our house is burning right now

and then the next morning we woke up and we got confirmation that our whole neighborhood had been I think 80% loss of homes and so it was the this really interesting experience of being in some of the most extreme states of bliss and then also being taken down by these like total avalanches of grief and just like so much went into that place and so much beauty and so much love and so much connection and like there's this unfathomable kind of energy of like how is this even possible right it's it's

like hard to even compute and then not having been back there and seen it with my own eyes and only seeing blurry videos from like firefighters that happened to make it up there that were able to be like, yep, confirmed, your house is completely gone. Just such a completely surreal experience. And so I I was sharing my journey on social media. And I was speaking largely from this place of trust and seeing the bigger picture and sort of understanding that there's a reason even if I don't understand what it is. And I wrote, the greatest loss I stand to lose is actually trust in the benevolence of life itself. Like, that's actually the biggest loss that could potentially happen here. It's not the house. And then I realized that I needed to share the other side of my experience, too.

I needed to share the human side. And I threw my back out and I was in a lot of physical pain and kind of bedridden for several days. And I went to some really dark places. And I, try to share that side of it as well because I don't want to create the impression that I'm some sort of evolved spiritual person that always is in the state of like total surrender with life. You know, it's it's not true. Like there was moments where I got in the car to drive to the chiropractor to get adjusted for like the fifth time. My back was so completely screwed.

And I processed like rage and grief and screamed at the top of my lungs and just like let it rip for 10 minutes. And then I was okay. You know, like, I think that's the thing about emotion is like, it's energy in motion. It comes and we let it come and we let it have its way with us and then we move through it. And on the other side, now we come back to some form of like, all right, and so it is. And now what? So just a lot of oscillations.

Yeah. But really powerful. And then so many downloads and so much inspiration and so much clarity. around like this is the moment to assemble the allies and to launch this initiative and to really let LA be a beacon for the world. That process of alchemizing grief into gold and I know you've had a lot of creative inspiration come from it too. Like you see the ephemeral nature of something that you so deeply cherished and it, you know, how impermanent life is can take things away in the blink of an eye. it thins the veil, you know, between, I feel like us and the divine creative life force energy. And that can show up in many different ways.

And I know you've been writing some poems from the time. Would you want to share one of them? Sure. Yeah, I'd love to, I'd love for you to share with our audience. And I think it's really beautiful to be able to feel that process, because we can all relate in our own ways, whatever we're going through. They say it's better to have loved and lost. never to have loved at all.

Our sanctuary canyon land appeared in 2019, soon after we put out the call. It took three years to build and only a few minutes to fall. I can see it even now, being devoured by that fiery red ball. What a plot twist. Is this inferno the apocalypse? It makes me dizzy to see how fast the narrative flips.

Horror shock and awe as the fire. rips, while accusations stream from so many lips. This is the city where I hustled for tips, condensed my acting career into a series of clips. Now dreams sail away like Columbus's ships, and all the while the wind relentlessly whips. But no. Deep down, I know.

This isn't just a horror show. No, this unspeakable disaster that rudely ate all of our hand-spackled plaster It has a purpose. It wants me to go faster toward being of service. There's Jedi skills. It wants me to master. It wants me to walk the talk.

To stand in the light to when life gets real dark. To believe we can turn smoldering houses into a livable park. To ignite inspiration and become spirit's own spark. This is the moment. Do we dare and own it? It was Rumi who said, The wound is where the light enters you. So in this darkest hour,

let us blossom from the rubble like a flower. Even though the tarot card we pulled turned out to be the tower, we can choose to lead instead of cower, to lead with all of our love and all of our grief. Give permission to feel and provide relief. breathe deep together and unclench our teeth start to heal and return the blade of sorrow to its sheath. We got this, family. This is not the time for anarchy or blame-inflamed soliloquy, no, this is the time to hone our frequency.

A teacher once said, I don't know what the truth is, but I know what love feels like. You, me, we know what love feels like. And that feeling is our God-given birthright. So even if all you want to do is scream and cry and fight, the love that you are will never burn less bright because this kind of love transcends wrong and right. So that is the invitation. Be the change you wish to see.

It's okay if there's heart palpitation. Life will always be a mix of loss and celebration. That's the nature of this ever-evolving meditation. So let's give ourselves some space. Let's practice turning grief into grace. Let's slow way down and also pick up the pace. Time isn't real, yet there's no time to waste. They say, it's better to have loved and lost.

But never to have loved at all. We lost our home in the flames, and we choose to stand tall. Thank you for sharing. Beautiful. And yeah, it's brave. It's brave to stand tall when everything's burning down, literally metaphorically. And so thank you for doing that and being a leader and for feeling it all and transmuting and sharing a gift. Yeah.

It's a special land, a special time. Yeah, and the land is going to come back better than ever, brighter than ever, more full of life than ever. Yeah. We'll see what comes a bit. I know it'll be sweet. Yeah. I probably similarly, like you both really value the full human experience and then also like the meaning and philosophy of like the existential reality of why certain things happen and how nature has its way as opposed to our own will sometimes. we all have tragedy in life.

We all face challenges. We all have things happen in a way that is outside of our ideal in some shape and form throughout our whole lifetime. And I think how we show up in these moments is really where the spiritual rubber hits the hard road of life and where we get to put our practice into practice. And so, yeah, we'll see what insights and nuggets come from this time. but thank you for coming at such a fresh and raw time. No, it's powerful, right? Like, I think there's this,

there's so much paradox in the spiritual journey. One of the biggest ones is we remember that we are an extension of the divine and that we are connected to an incredible source of intelligence and source of power, truly, like creative power to shape and mold our reality through our thoughts and our beliefs and our feelings and our actions. and it's a it is a recognition that we have this godlike power within us and also at the same time I think the polarity to that the paradox within that is that we are tiny tiny tiny little specks

in the larger cosmic movements of reality right so it's the yes and it's like yes we are incredibly powerful beings and also what we create can just be evaporated in two seconds by these forces that are so much larger than us that are also expressions of the divine. And I think the humility that needs to come in parallel with the empowerment is a big part of what the lesson is here in this moment for me personally. Of course, when something like this happens to you, especially if you're a person who believes you create your reality, one of the first places you go is like, well, how the fuck did I create that? Right. Didn't see that one coming.

was a real plot twist. And this sort of like, well, but I'm one of the good guys and I'm using my space to bring people together and transform lives. And literally people are healing ancestral trauma on this land. Like in this house, why is it just completely annihilated? And I think unpacking sort of the why, because I do choose to believe that everything has a purpose.

And I think that is a choice, ultimately, to believe that or not. So I choose to believe that life, the universe, whatever you want to call this experience that we're a part of, like, has a larger plan that a lot of times we can't see with our limited perspective. And so when things happen like this that feel that are beyond logic or reason, there's a deeper listening that I think is being invited of like, okay, well, what we're actually, is it really true that I built the, this beautiful space that we created this beautiful vision and then it was just taken from us and like that was this horrible thing. Is that true with a capital T or is there a deeper truth? And I think my husband and I have been unpacking what that is and we've been really looking at where what we created was actually while it was beautiful aesthetically. It was also out of alignment in a lot of ways with who we said we wanted to be. And that showed up in a lot of

different ways. It showed up in the energy from which we even said yes to this remodel, which was very much an energy of pressure and urgency and feeling like we had to make a decision because we had permits that were expiring, like very 3D stuff that kind of ultimately motivated it, even though we never got the full yes inside. And the funny, you know, cosmic joke in all of it is we literally, one of the main things we were talking about when we first started working together was this idea of the full fuck yes, like following the full fuck yes all the way through. And we never had the full fuck yes actually to go through this remodel process. And we kind of just let inertia move us into that, you know, massive project, which was really like, if I were to honestly look at the energetics that birthed a lot of that, it was stress and it was feeling like we don't have the luxury of really slowing down enough to deeply listen to what is actually true. So buying into this busyness and this like need to get somewhere. And that was infused into the foundation and it showed up in the dynamic of the whole almost three year construction

process. And the materials we chose were not necessarily sustainable or in alignment with like principles of being really in harmony with nature and obviously we're not equipped for that location because the house was made out of wood. It's like a tinderbox. So it's, it's, I think the willingness to look at those things is kind of where then the real value comes, right? Because I can choose to be a victim of the situation or I can see that life is mirroring something to me and giving me an opportunity to come into deeper alignment with who I say I want to be. I think it's the natural, next step for a lot of people after tragedy is asking like why? Sure.

Why does this happen? Why do bad things happen? And there's so many different ways one can look at that. Just saying maybe it's random, you know, or a confluence of conditions that were just not in our favor in a certain way and it was just random how it happened. You could say that there is a deeper intelligence of life that is, you know, orchestrating things. We could attach our own personal meaning, so many different ways in which us, human beings find comfort and none is right or wrong as it pertains to our own interiors and

and what brings us comfort. What have you landed on as to why things like this happen? Because it's the grief and the tragedy is almost at a scale where it's like it's, it can be so tough to see a bigger picture when the reality is so hard for so many people. And so, yeah, I'm just curious on like what your thoughts are on that and how you make meaning. Well, I mean, I think what I shared just now, the lessons harvested, those are all very personal, obviously, right? I can see where when I reflect back on the, because we did build the home essentially, right, we took it down to the stud. So we had the opportunity to choose. It wasn't like we just, we bought a place and then that was what it was.

We had the opportunity to consciously make decisions about how that place was going to be. built. And so on a personal level, I can see where I was not in alignment with the values that I was maybe proclaiming in the world, which of course are all about coming into deeper right relationship with the natural world and, you know, a whole slew of other things. I think if I zoom out from my personal lens and I look at the larger collective happening of this particular situation as it relates to Los Angeles. I think that a few things. One, I think Los Angeles is the mecca of the storytelling that shapes culture and consciousness truly, like through the stories that we perpetuate out into the world. Like that's so much of the world looks to L.A. and has for decades

for what is trendy, what is cool, what does the hero archetype look like? What does the villain look like, right? All of these archetypal imprints come from this place largely. And I think the stories we've been telling have been largely based on a foundation or a model of separation, dominance, extraction. And I think those have been normalized, like completely normalized and proliferated essentially, right? The stories that come out of this one place on the planet impact the lives of billions of people all over the world. And so I think L.A. specifically going through this. experience is kind of like a massive reset button is what I see. Because I think, again, it's stepping on the spiritual path and understanding these things conceptually is one thing. But embodying them,

living them truly, and actually aligning your actions with what you know all the way through, that's really the hard part, right? That's the spiritual rubber meets the road. And it's a lot easier said than done. It's easy to come on a podcast and talk about it. It's another thing to actually make the hard decision and say, even though I need this space because it's a, you know, it's a space that allows us to fulfill our mission and it's a platform for our organization and we want it to be functional as soon as possible for all these very good reasons, we're actually going to slow way down and we're going to stop and listen and we're going to bring in, you know, indigenous people. We're going to bring in permaculturists. We're going to bring in people who understand how to

build in ways that are sustainable and aligned with the environment. Like that all is tedious and it takes time and it's inconvenient, right, to the high achiever that I am also very much guilty of being. Like I'm a high achiever and I like to bulldoze through stuff and I like to move super fast. And so that whole paradigm of like the goal is over there, like what is here is not it, but what's over there is going to be better. that whole paradigm, I feel like, has to be dismantled.

And none of us are exempt from it. And so I get trapped in that just as much as anyone else. And I think that we're given an opportunity personally for like a take two. Like, okay, you did it that way and your house blew up. Now what would you like to do, you know? I get the vision of like an etch-a-sketch-sketch from life. Yeah. Shaking it.

shook it up and now it's a clean slate. And so, and then for LA, like, how is this particular community, which is largely quite privileged and affluent as well, right? Like, the areas that burned are neighborhoods where people who have a lot of influence and wealth and power, like, reside. Yeah. Outside of some, you know, a lot of neighborhoods and Altadena. And Altadina for sure, yeah. Those fires, but, yeah, palisades for sure. Yeah. So there's a huge opportunity there to say, okay, well, how is this community, how are the human beings that are affected by this going to potentially do things differently? And how could this also, I'm really seeing the gift in this as an opportunity to share the rewriting of a narrative, you know? And sometimes you have to have everything

stripped away all the way to nothing before you're willing to actually make a change. So I think while destruction is horribly painful and can be, of course, devastating, dating, there's also a huge opportunity for a new way of operating to emerge from this that can hopefully be shared worldwide. Yeah, it really does feel like the life is the other side of the coin of death and the veil thins as the fire purifies and you get to see the potential and the beauty and all the things that exist on the other side of what we have clung to, been attached to, have known. and again it's that juxtaposition of fully feeling our feelings and our experience of being human and the open potential see of what could be and what what is to come

Joseph Campbell which I know we both love that quote that blisses any feeling fully felt I think of that quote and I also think of that quote that you opened up the that you guys opened up the book Becoming With from Glennon Doyle we are alive only to the degree in which we are willing to be annihilated. That's powerful. I'm curious why you decided to open with that with that and as somebody who I know is very much so a kind of forerunner and likes to pioneer and is kind of like yes to death rebirth and reinnovation both inwardly and externally just the power that fire is. So yeah, what do you think about that that kind of juxtaposition between the fire, the purification and our messy human emotional landscape. Yeah. I believe that one of the biggest reasons why there's so much dysfunction

on our planet, and just in general, within the human condition specifically, is because we have separated ourselves from the natural world and also from what some might call the feminine. We like to call it Omega, so in opposition to Alpha. But the feminine isn't the sort of, you know, nurturing, compassionate, quaint, polite version of the feminine that we, you know, culturally have adopted. Like, the feminine in its full spectrum is also the Kali energy. It's the destructive nature of reality. And it can be quite relentless. And I think in, when we talk about coming into what I believe is, you know, there's these these t-shirts that people walk around with us is the future is female. And I don't resonate with that.

that at all. I think the future is integrated from my perspective, meaning when we have been able to create, when we've been able to stretch into both spectrums of the polarities within ourselves, right, we live in a highly sort of patriarchal culture, very masculine, very alpha, not that that's all bad, right? There's a lot of beauty there. We need that structure, but because we've suppressed so much of the other side, the feminine side, even women, right, when they entered the workforce, basically sacrificed their own femininity in order to be able to compete and have the success that men were having. And so we called that empowerment, but really what it was was, I think, a loss of a deeper, intuitive connection to this force

that is really quite terrifying to the ego because it cannot be controlled. And it includes life, the giving of life, and it also includes the taking of life. It includes death, it includes destruction, We throw around words like regeneration because they sound great, but the truth is regeneration implies also death and composting of materials that are no longer meant to exist in that form and are meant to be alchemized into something new. And so these themes of inner alchemy and of being willing to kind of push past all of these defense mechanisms that we've accumulated, most of which are very unconscious, that try and keep us safe and the same. same is my life's work. Like that is why I'm here. And I have this tattoo, which is an ancient Greek symbol for alchemy, actually. And alchemy is all about the transmutation, right? From lead into gold, from fear into love. And I think what I've learned on my path of going really deep into some pretty gnarly places within myself in my own journey of transformation is,

on the other side of death is always truth, right? That's a Kim Kran's quote that I love. but in order to get to the truth, whatever that means, always shape-shifting as well, is this annihilation process, like this disassembling process that has to happen. And the disassembling is of our ego construct, our identity, all the attachments that we have to the things that we think make us safe or make us worthy. All of these sort of conditioned imprints that we've taken on and have inherited, one by one, they have to be composted into something new. And that's a really intense process.

And I think it's a little bit of my kink is to be like, yeah, let's go there. You know, like let's go all the way there. Let's not fuck around. Let's actually look at the things that we don't want to look at. Let's look at potentially the scariest parts of our own psyche because on the other side of facing the fear, we become free. And then all of a sudden a whole new dimension of reality opens up. up to us. But to me, it's about the integration of the feminine. And I think nature is one of our

greatest expressions of the feminine in action. And fire is one of the elemental forces that nature uses to regenerate. And here we are now confronted with this force and we can be afraid of it or we can use it. Yeah, this is now deviating a little bit more into the wider scope of the conversation, which I'm excited to dive in with you about. Because fire is like in the principle of alchemy, it's literally the element that purifies gold. And our emotional landscape also turns grief into gold, into insight, into some sort of external value. Also, the only element that can't be contaminated, you know, and so it's a powerful force to

be reckoned with. And I think there's a fundamental switch in one's personal life and spiritual life when they discover what you just mentioned. They see the freedom that lies on the other side of awareness and integrate. and purification, and they start to walk towards the fire. And I know it's a huge value of yours. It's a big value of mine. People that really do value that and also live in the embodiment of that.

I'm curious your process of why you fallen in love with that process and what you've truly discovered in your own personal life, however philosophical or material you want to get with it, what comes on the other side of that. Well, I guess what comes on the other side of that is the true richness of being alive, you know, which to me, because the nature of this experience is all about these, this rich tapestry of like polarities that we've been given access to, right? And the further we stretch into a polarity like trust, for example,

which of course is one of the core values, you know, that I'm sure we share and also, as our organization Kavanaugh is one of our core values, trust beyond reason. So trust is a beautiful thing, and of course everyone wants trust. What we forget sometimes is that in order to receive more trust, in order to actually genuinely, not just again intellectually understand, but embody trust at the deepest level, the way to get there is actually to a lot of times be forced into the opposite. So if I say I want to live a more trust-filled life, then I believe the universe responds to that intention,

highly intelligently, and it essentially orchestrates experiences and opportunities for me to look at all the areas in which I'm not embodying that trust that I say I want to embody. So it's going to create external circumstances that allow me to see that, because the fastest way for me to step into more trust is for that to become so clearly illuminated that I actually make it conscious, right? It goes from being unconscious to becoming conscious. And in that moment, I have the opportunity to choose how I want to relate to that. And so I think the gift on the other side of a lot of these, like truly, they're initiations.

When we make big declarations to life and we say, I want more of X, life will orchestrate initiations for us so that we can actually receive those big intentions. And I think at the end of the day, it's a question of aesthetic. Like, what is the human experience that you want to have? in this one precious life. You know, some people are going to choose predominantly security. That's going to be maybe their core value is like, I want to feel safe and secure, and I want to know how I'm going to start my days and how I'm going to end my days,

and I want to feel that consistency. And that's what's true for me, and that's my aesthetic. And so I'm not interested in going and pushing the envelope and like exploring, looking at my deepest, darkest traumas and wounds. Like, that's not interesting to me in this lifetime. And that's beautiful. There's no right way to be. Like truly, I don't believe there's one right path. I think that we get to choose and we also are existing inside of a larger context. And the larger context that I see from my lens of what's happening on the planet right now in our lifetime is

that there's an acceleration of what I believe is an evolutionary process where essentially having spent many, many, many lifetimes in, again, this sort of paradigm of separation, or what you could call just like a state of unconsciousness, is coming to an end. And we're moving now very quickly into a different age. And what that means more, I guess, tangibly is just that our system, like our actual nervous system, the electromagnetic frequency of our being, you know, what we actually are, when you look at us past just like the flesh and the muscles and the bones and the organs. We are receiving information in the form of light that's coming into our planet,

that we are able to embody and that can give us a greater sense of freedom and choice and creator consciousness if we choose to go through these initiations. That said, if we choose not to, if we fight the process, this movement that is happening on a more collective level, if we resist it because we're afraid and we want to cling to what was, that's when I see a lot of suffering happening because we're kind of resisting what is. And so do we need to opt in?

You know, is it, how much choice do we really have? Like, these are all really good questions to ask. For me personally, like, the only option is to dive in at first. And what I found is the more that I've been willing to go into those uncomfortable places and look at myself in the mirror and really own like my blind spots as well. And instead of being ashamed of them or pushing them aside or pretending they're not there, but actually like including them and integrating them, the more free I become for life to use me as a vessel.

So when you say what's the reward on the other side, like to me it's surrender to something that is bigger than me coming through me that shapes and molds, the words that come through my mouth without me having to think, think about them, right? Like that being being a steward of the current of life itself to me is the ultimate expression of being alive. And if I can be that, I can be in a state of flow and I can be in a state of presence. And that's where I find the trust. And that's where I find the beauty. And that's where I find the richness. It's not when I fabricate an idea of what my life should look like and then try and force my way into that. It's actually the complete opposite. It's taking my hands off the

steering wheel in a big way and allowing. Yeah, and that allowing manifests as often a lot of action in different periods. Like I love the Taoist saying the master does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone. And it refers to the state of consciousness we all can inhabit where we surrender to the flow of what life wants of us. And that can look like often massive action. It doesn't mean you're inert sitting in a cave somewhere. It means you're doing what life is asking of you. And I think the purification process where we experience polarities and discomfort,

and challenges, the invitation, I guess, in this conversation, and what you're pointing to is that you can choose how to perceive anything in your life. And when tragedy happens, when challenge occurs, you can choose to see it as a gift that becomes, that shit becomes fertilizer for new things to grow in your life. Or it can be things are happening to me consciousness. And of course, it's important to make space for the part of us that really feels like a victim of life.

and I find it really awe-inspiring to read about individuals like Victor Frankel and people who have experienced immense tragedy where your family gets murdered. It might get put into a gas chamber and you're still able to choose an empowering perspective that allows you to be of greatest service to those around you. And I think that those are powerful people that stand as pillars for reminders of what's possible in life. and that it's a fundamental reorientation of perspective and you start to see these challenges as real opportunities in life and I love this quote from Khalil Gibran that kind of speaks to this that I found this morning actually I have learned silence from the talkative

toleration from the intolerant and kindness from the unkind yet strange I am ungrateful to these teachers and it's interesting right like thank God there is a polarity of If it was just one monotone note throughout our whole life, it would be a very boring movie. And so this perspective, this contrast of experience is actually really beautiful and usually it takes hindsight to witness that beauty, but it doesn't always require it, you know?

And I think that's where the, again, the spiritual rubber meets the road where you get to actually experience the beauty while you're in the process of transformation. Because the more times you've gone through it, the more times you know what's to come. It's like, I know what's on the other side of this pain. And it's an insight. It's a lesson. It's some sort of growth. Yeah.

I mean, I can't remember who said it, but someone once said, all fear is the fear of feeling. So if I can find a way to alchemize the fear of feeling, that I can feel anything, the full spectrum, right, of all of it. And then suddenly what I'm feeling becomes not necessarily a truth, but it becomes a sensation. And when it becomes a sensation, I can become curious about that sensation. even if that sensation is highly uncomfortable, even if I'm on my knees and grieving, I can see

and feel and experience that this is a gift that I was given in a human body, and I can choose to take it and turn it into something beautiful. And I think what you said earlier about sometimes it can look like a lot of action, like when life is flowing through you, when you really do become more of a receptacle for life's intelligence to use you. And if that's your prayer, too, like, that is my prayer, you know, for life to use me in the best way that it can and to be in service to the whole. And so life is like, well, I got a lot of work for you to do. Like, I have, there's a whole new paradigm to build, like literally, you know. And people ask me, how are you able to create so much? Like, I feel paralyzed, especially

in a moment like this, where everything seems to be falling apart and you're able to make art and write poems and produce podcasts and launch initiatives and, you know, on top of all the other things that you're already doing in Mexico, building a town of the future in XYZ. And I'm like, you know what? I don't feel like I'm doing any of it. I really don't. I feel like I'm being moved by something. And I have an incredible access to what sometimes feels like infinite amounts of energy. It's not, actually, because my body will give me the signals when it's like I'm pushing too far. But yeah, the energy that's coming through is potent and activating and it's available to everyone. I really believe that. Like, we all have access to this energy. And if, again, if our

intention is to receive it and we're willing to go through the purification process first internally to be able to receive it, because we need to be a vibrational match to it as well, right? if our system is vibrating in a state of extreme limitation or disease, for example, then we may not be able to match the vibration of this very potent life force energy that's coming through that contains all of these instructions. Like the energy isn't just energy, it's like blueprints, is how I see it. So the energy comes through and the instructions reveal themselves and then the action flows when we come into alignment.

And it needs to align, of course, with our unique design as well and our intention and our purpose. So there's a lot of layers that kind of need to come to coherence. Yeah, and it can be tough to delineate between those layers in a society that really values the intellect and the mind kind of operating in linear time. Like our intellectual mind loves control and certainty and connecting the dots in a way that we can predict. And what you're speaking to is a deeper energy, a deeper intelligence, if you will. And I think for those that have experienced, moments of coincidence, synchronicity, where they were perhaps operating within flow and outside of their intellect, and they can see the magic that can unfold in our life when we live

from that place. It's very inspiring, and it really can be a catalyst for so much. And so what do you feel like is the difference between our intellect and operating from a deeper intelligence? Well, this is one of my favorite things to talk about. Well, good thing you're on a podcast with me, as. Here we are. Here we are. Yeah, I've been really fascinated by this idea of, especially with the dawn of artificial intelligence, it's really invited us into this deeper conversation of, well, what is intelligence, really, right? And what is the value of human intelligence? Like, empirically, AI is going to be better and faster and more efficient at most anything that requires our analytical mind.

Like, the part of us that computes information or to your, you know, what you've shared with linear time space reality. Like, filing cabinets. Yeah, like, how do I get from point A to point? None of that is relevant anymore. So what's left, right? What are the other intelligence systems that we have available to us that I think most of us are actually not using? I think that we are these like highly sophisticated quantum computers that no one ever gave us the instruction manual on how to use. So we get to kind of go on this journey of discovery.

To me, that's a lot of what the spiritual path is about is not even spiritual. It's like actually quite material. It's like, how is this thing designed? what is the intelligence system of my like somatic intelligence, right? My physical body, how it stores information, how it stores energy, how it stores trauma, how can I unlock that, how can I alchemize that, my intuitive intelligence, the part of me that has access to some source of wisdom that is not coming from a book that I read in high school, right?

Like there is, there are these things that we can, I think, all relate to and understand. and I'm working on a framework of sort of categorizing them into these different intelligence systems, essentially, and looking at what's the integration of how do they all come into cohesion so that when we're walking through life, and whether we're at the grocery store checkout line or we're at the DMV or we're on a huge stage talking to millions of people, whatever the circumstance, we can be aligned so that all of the intelligence systems are working together in harmony. I think that's when what comes through us becomes potentized and amplified. And so I think AI in a way is a huge gift because it's taking away the thing that we've relied upon so heavily. And it's kind of like, okay, well, now you're going to have to go figure out how else you can find value in yourself and be of value to the world.

So we're seeing this wave of, I mean, if you look at like the health and wellness industry, right, and you look at the trillions and trillions of dollars that that industry is already worth and it's going to continue to be, we're seeing this mass transformational awakening process that's happening that is measurable. It's not theoretical. It's measurable. And we're seeing the desire and the longing for people to understand how do I tap into some of these deeper states of intelligence. How do I feel safe and secure within myself without needing my bank account or my house or my job status to give that to me? How do I find that empowerment within myself? A lot of people are asking this question. I think it's a beautiful byproduct of a very

volatile and chaotic moment on planet Earth, potentized by exponential technology, and climate change or crisis or whatever preferred language you have for those changes that are happening. All of these things coming together are kind of forcing us to ask existential questions that we may not have asked otherwise. And there's actually a lot of people, including yourself, who are like, hey, we actually have been doing this for like a while. We've been, you know, exploring all of these things. And we would like to now sort of serve a lot of the potential answers, not the answer, but potential answers to you so that you can accelerate your journey and your path. Not everyone has to go reinvent the wheel, right? We can learn from each other. And the way information

spreads right now is highly conducive to us being able to accelerate this process that's happening. It is accelerating. Every day more and more it seems like. It really does, right? I feel like I'm living what used to be like years in terms of just experience and, yeah, like events, living years and weeks. It's just condensing and condensing and condensing and becoming so potentized. I mean, never a dull moment. Yeah, yeah, for sure, both internally and externally, like with technology, you know, it's at such an exponential rate where literally every day new discoveries and things and inventions are coming out. And it can be tough to keep up if we're so closely identified with that. But then again, it's like inviting back as, you know, a reminder into that deeper somatic intelligence, you know. And I think for those that are listening that want to apply and kind of bring this more as a, you know, reality in their life, for those that make quantum leaps in their life, whether it's internally in a growth of their mindset or externally in their abundance, prosperity, or impact or service in the world, usually people that are making those big quantum leaps in life on paper, their decisions or moves, like don't make sense. They're illogical, you know.

and I'm just curious your thoughts on that, on tapping into that intelligence at a deeper level, which looks like intuition, and what in your experience has been accessing that intelligence through intuition versus old conditioning that actually masquerades as gut feelings and can look like intuitions, you know, because there is layers to it.

Oh, yeah, it's complex, for sure. What is my intuition? What is my fear programming? What is my, the thing I never processed from when I was five years old, that's now like raising its hand, you know? Deep listening is the answer, I think. Like how quiet can we get internally and externally? I'm sure some of the people listening here know the gene keys

and they're familiar with that technology and framework. And I recently went back and looked at my chart because I was really reflecting on, okay, you know, empirically, I look back and I can see that decisions were made, as I said earlier, that could have been made probably in a more aligned way. And now here we are standing in the, you know, the aftermath of those consequences. And so was it that I didn't listen to my intuition?

Was it that my intuition led me astray? Should I have brought in more of my logical, rational mind that says, hey, don't build a house out of wood in the middle of a canyon in Malibu? Like, right? Did I go too far, actually, into trusting? Like, this was also a question that my husband and I sat with. And so I went back to the gene keys and I looked at my chart and I saw in there something I had forgotten, which is that I have the 43rd gene key twice. I have a double, which means it's amplified.

And the shadow is deafness and the key is insight. And the CTE, which is the highest expression, is epiphany. And I really understood more of, like, to answer your question, which is, okay, what does that actually look like? How do I discern between all these different voices that are speaking at all times? And what's interesting about the deafness key is, you know, the shadow of it, of course, is like we actually aren't listening to the real wisdom that is available to us. And there's so much internal or external noise that we can't hear it. And I think that's true for most humans, just based on the nature of how we interface with technology specifically and the amount of information and data coming at us at all times. It's like most of us can't hear our own voice because it's drowned out by all the noise.

So there's this kind of deafness shadow that we get stuck inside of. But the gift of deafness, which leads to insight, is actually when we learn to very consciously tune out all of the noise. And we consciously become deaf to the noise, meaning we close the door, we sit down on our meditation cushion, we breathe. And we give ourselves that space to not be. distracted by anything external pulling on our attention so that we can come into that deeper state of listening and that's where insight gets unlocked and he talks about how insight can't be forced you can't make it happen but you can create the conditions and the circumstances for it to happen so i think meditation stillness sitting in nature you don't have to meditate but just contemplation

like being without doing anything and certainly getting off of your social media like for extended periods of time are all very conducive to being able to then really deeply listen and discern. And if that was the biggest takeaway for myself personally, I would say I didn't do enough of that. I let myself get caught up in the momentum of creation. And I didn't spend enough time in deep listening with myself and with the whispers of nature and the way that the intelligence of life communicates beyond logic and reason. Like, it's... so subtle and we have to get so, so, so quiet to be able to receive it. So yeah. It feels like, and I'm definitely familiar with this earlier on my journey and saw a lot of it, this juvenile

form of personal development that says we should always be expanding that our will is the only thing that shapes reality. I, of course, believe we are creators of reality. And yet we live in the context and an environment with cycles and seasons that influence us, right? We are not these independent creatures moving through time and space. We are interdependent with everything, every force, every life, energy, people, nature around us. And I think in the recognition that there are these both bigger macro and smaller micro cycles

happening within us, around us, and starting to live in more harmony is a more truly expanded version of what it means to be personally growing, personally developing. And so I'm curious about your thought there, between this old kind of rhetoric and narrative that's like always grow, always expand my will, you know, versus there's actually cycles and seasons

where maybe it's fallow and that looks totally different. And that actually is growing, it just doesn't look like it yet. Yeah. Well, I think that there's a, you know, this, and I hesitate to use the word patriarchal, because it feels like it's making the masculine wrong, and I don't like that. So I'll call it more like the high achiever kind of culture

that especially in the U.S. is so celebrated and the bigger, better, faster, stronger, you know, all of that. Like it's like a magnetic force field of beliefs, of lived examples, of reference points, of a whole definition of what success looks like. And it's very, very powerful. And sometimes I use the analogy of like imagine you're standing in a river that's fast moving and for you to be able to stand upright in the river, like you have to actually really focus

and hold your balance and use all of your muscles to be able to fight the current, right? And so sometimes I feel like that's part of this is it's so easy to get swept up in this sort of like how do I be the best fastest spiritual person ever too, right? Like, how do I apply that same mindset to all of the spiritual teachings? And how do I drink the most amount of ayahuasca in the shortest period of time? And like, it's all the same thing, right? It's still this idea that there's somewhere else to get and that somewhere over there is better. And it's so easy to apply that to the spiritual path, absolutely.

But again, I think it's the recognition that we live inside of larger cosmic and elemental forces that are beyond the control of our world. will or even our desire is an uncomfortable thing to reckon with because we want to be God. We want to have 100% control over all things at all times. And to me, it's it comes back to not having integrated the feminine or the other side of the spectrum, which says yes and. like it is the paradox of you are infinitely worthy and infinitely powerful and also you don't matter in the grand scheme of things you don't matter and what you want is completely irrelevant

it's both and so living in the paradox i think it's just it can be it can feel like an uncomfortable place to be but to me it's a sign of of spiritual maturity and there's that beautiful I'm sure many of you have heard this on Spotify, but there's this beautiful track where Ellen Watts talks about, like, you know, imagine that you could dream anything you want, right? And you dream all of your desires, and then you kind of get bored and you're like, okay, I did that. And then now I want to dream a dream where I actually don't know what's going to happen, you know?

And eventually, if you do that long enough, you'll be in the dream that is your life today. So our lives, I believe, is essentially this, expression of consciousness experiencing itself through contrast and dancing in this web of polarity and opposites and paradoxes and sometimes death is a part of that story but death is also just another door into another experience so even though from the human perspective death is the worst thing ever from the larger perspective death is just the end of a chapter in the beginning of a new one one. And I think when we can kind of really come in contact with that, the infinite nature of this

whole thing, then suddenly the stakes change. And it becomes more about savoring the beauty of what is moment by moment, even if what is is my house burned down. You know, versus like, I need to go over there because over there is better. Yeah. Ultimately, we're putting a state of consciousness or feeling that's associated with that place over there anyways. Like, we ultimately want to feel good within ourselves. Right. And, like, just feel like we have a balance of certainty and uncertainty. And we want to feel generally optimistic about a vision of a future that excites us.

But it is embracing that dream that is our life and that it's that woo way. It's what Alan Watts talks about so much, you know, in the balance and harmony of those polarities and finding the middle way, you know, which is actually where we find the most balance in life. And, yeah, it can be, again, tough in this society to embody that level of trust and surrender, but it is a state with so much beauty that it would be a shame not to explore and to be devoted to embodying, you know. Yeah, and I think that I don't know if harmony is always the answer. Like sometimes we want to really let the pendulum swing and carve out, you know, both sides of the spectrum. Like sometimes I want to go into the depths of grief and loss and despair.

And I want to hang out there for a while because as an artist, I can source so much from that place. You know, there's so much, look at some of the best art in the world that comes from that place. And so I think it's, yes, let's find maybe a stabilization point somewhere in the center where we can sort of come home to a place of equanimity. but I don't think that's the point. I don't think hanging out there permanently is the point. I think the point is like the exploration of how wide, of how willing am I to expand in all directions of this human experience spectrum? And how can I take that as really like fertile soil

or as the ingredients that I use to then create something with it that in turn can inspire and empower and enliven others? I think there's a natural evolution towards service that comes on this path as well. Like how can my life be an offering? How can what I share, my personal experience, start to really be medicine for others? Like that's where I think it starts to get really interesting because then when others start to be able to receive the medicine that we are and there's this energy exchange like the depth of intimacy also exponentially expands.

And I think that that's another big thing that we're after. We're not just always after happen. happiness and harmony, we're after stunning intimacy with the present moment and with the people across from us. Yeah, that intimacy is truly what I feel we crave. That drives us to often exploring the shadow and seeing what is the barrier between joy. Like when we discover the joy that's inherent in our being, the natural byproduct of that, like the fragrance of our being in a way is to naturally be of service and to be a steward for all living things around us. And that And yeah, we live in a time where it's exciting because more examples of that are become readily

available. Like the negative rhetoric and tragedies that are always available on news, that our nervous system isn't designed to have the capacity to handle always, is always there. And the more that we can create and be a pioneer and leader of that new paradigm that we're speaking to, I think it just becomes another access point, another touch point in which people can tune into that frequency. I think again, sometimes the thing that allows change to happen is contrast.

And so I don't watch the news, but when I tune into the energy that is present there and I can feel it so deeply steeped in this idea of fear and separation, it's like how extreme does that need to get in order to catalyze something else? Because it contains its equal opposite, too. like the breakdown that we're seeing on our screens, every single time we engage with that frequency, it's also an invitation to enter into the portal

to go kind of to the complete opposite side of the spectrum, you know? And I think that's what makes this whole idea of polarity so fun. At the end of the day, I believe it's a game, you know, that we're here that we somehow signed up for it to play, and it's a game with very high stakes. It's a life or death game. But it's also so fun. Yeah, and it's that balance of like where surrender can quickly become avoidance and control can become self-sabotage also.

And so it's like it's like the balance within the balance too, you know, because we can also very quickly just turn a blind eye to the realities that are around us until, funny enough, it comes on our front doorstep, you know, or burns through it. In both of our cases, you know, the fire, for example, came really close to where, you know, you. you know, I'm at, and we had obviously dozens of friends that have lost their place. And it's the both gift and challenge with human language in general is using terms like surrender. Often everybody has their own understanding of what that means. Sure. Yeah. Eventually, we'll be able to just sit here and in complete silence and, you know, have a conversation

that can be picked up nonverbally by those who are on the same wavelength. We're not quite there yet. We'll use the rudimentary tool that is language. this moment. It's happening. I don't know if you've seen the telepathy tapes. I started listening to it. Okay, cool. It's profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, we're exploring, hopefully going to have Diane and Powell and Kai on the show. It's so interesting what's also happening as this rise of AI, for, you know, for example, in our understanding of the ancient intelligence that is happening. And it just rewrites our notion of consciousness in life and all of it as a sidebar.

Totally. And I guess one more thing I wanted to say about the action. oriented piece because I think that's really important, especially when we're talking about things that can feel very kind of like conceptual and big picture. One thing that I'm really receiving from this ancient intelligence or my intuition, my access point into the deeper wisdom is so much of the work isn't in the ceremony or on the meditation cushion or in the retreat anymore. It's really in the full living of life and the practical application of these things into our every day and into what we're actually building. And I think entrepreneurship is kind of an interesting spiritual path, actually, because it's a path that what is an entrepreneur, it's someone

who's taking something from the invisible and makes it visible ultimately in a way that hopefully provides value to society. Now, most of the time, that's maybe not the case. But let's just assume that there's purpose built into whatever's being created. It's not just about maximizing profit. At the end of the day, it's one of, I think, the most exciting explorations as a human being is how do I create something that has its own kind of consciousness in the sense that it's an entity. It has, like, you created Know Thyself, right? That didn't exist before. Now it's a podcast that people can reference and tune into. And you are also an entrepreneur. You created an ecosystem of something that is regenerative and sustainable. And so what I'm seeing,

now at this stage in the game more than anything is what people are looking for and need is more guidance on how to do that while remaining in alignment with their values and their truth. Because one of the byproducts of going on this path and doing all the things we talked about, right, stripping away all the layers and sort of disassembling the identity constructs and redefining success, one of the shadow sides of all of that is all the rules that used to apply don't apply anymore. And so, like, for example, how do I make money? You know, how do I survive on this living inside of a culture and a society that was designed

on a completely different operating system? Now, here I am in my new operating system, yay, but I can't pay my rent or I don't know how to take all of these visions and all of this inspiration that's flowing through me and actually do something with it that is valuable to me and to the world. The translation process into these very practical realities, I think this is like, this is where the spiritual rubber meets the real road in a big way too. And so part of coming back full spectrum or full circle to the fire theme, but I think part of why I believe I was meant to lose our home in the flames,

my husband and I are on this journey together. Like we're co-founding stewards of this massive ecosystem, really. You know, we have a 30-acre retreat center project we're building in Mexico. We have a thousand acre town of the future called Musa that we're building with our partners Tar and Andres all around the retreat center. We have this three and a half acre property here in Malibu. And one of the greatest like gifts that we feel that we're meant to give to the world is actually the transformation of our own entrepreneurial journey and how we have fallen into the trap of

using these kind of outdated ways and try to apply them to building something. that is supposed to be new, but still being kind of stuck somewhere in the middle, you know? Like when you shave your head and you grow your hair out, which I've done, there's this awkward like stage, you know, where like no matter what you do with it, it just does not look good. Same with teenagehood, right? Like from being a little kid to being an adult, there's that awkward in-between phase. I feel like we've been in that awkward phase in our entrepreneurial journey because we've been receiving visions of something that is very new paradigm, but all the tools and all the

lived experience and all the examples and reference points and teachers and books are all steeped in this other paradigm. And so it's like being kind of like right in the middle of it and trying to figure out how do we do this like in a good way, you know? How do we raise money? How do we bring in aligned partners? How do we build physical buildings? How do we, you know, take care of the watershed, like so many practical questions that need to be answered and that require kind of a very real world application, which there's just not a lot of instruction manuals for. So I just wanted to name that because if anyone's listening to this, that's like maybe thinks that we have it all figured out. We don't. Like we're really truly figuring this out in real time. And maybe we lost

our house in the flames because us going on the journey of figuring it. it out now from scratch again and having this kind of like second chance to do it differently is meant to be documented and shared and open sourced so that it can become hopefully valuable to others who are going through a similar process, whether starting something from scratch or trying to innovate the way that you're already building something. You know, it doesn't have to be a physical thing, but, you know, a business, a venture, a community, a movement, whatever you might be creating, like very likely you're having some of the same challenges that we're having of how to do this in a way that feels right and feels aligned.

When you're at the beginning of your journey of kind of attempting to merge the spiritual expansion and awareness and deep dives and everything and medicine journeys and all the stuff that you were doing earlier on in your path to then calling in, desiring to be a steward for large amounts of money and big projects and merging the material and the physical, I think a lot of people can relate and probably that are listening to this right now that have big dreams and desires and we live in a capitalist society where money is energy and allows us to create things, you know? Money is a big part of this conversation. Yeah. And I'm just curious like what, because you have the expanded awareness, you know, that I am a quantum being and I can tap into

the quantum field and manifest all this. And then there's, you know, the practice of having that vision of a future that excites you and getting clear on what that is and then the actual process of manifestation. And I just know that's such a big part of your journey and process. So what do you say to people that are at that stage where they're kind of just getting ready to metaphorically shave their head and they want to be able to merge? So like what have you learned the insight looking back around that period of time to merge those two? Well, I think what I've learned is that we can conceptually understand that money is energy. And I think that energy can feel sometimes very kind of like, well, like holding space.

Right. Like this term, we use this term, I'm holding space for you or you're holding space for me. What are we holding? we're holding space. Like we're holding empty space. You know, what does that mean? It's when we start to recognize that what, you know, what looks like empty space between you and me is not, right?

We are part of this sort of living energy field at all times. And so we can think of money as energy, but in order for money to actually become something that is collapsed into form, into particle. It's numbers in her bank account. But even that's not real. Those are also just like digits on a screen. But for it to become, let's say, in our case, right, we're building physical spaces.

We're building physical spaces for people to gather and converge and live. So for it to become a space, a physical space, what it requires is actually the structure. It requires the container that can hold the energy and then distribute the energy in a way that ultimately comes into coherence with the vision, right? And so I think one thing I've learned is that it can be very tempting, and I fell into this in a big way, to get so enamored with the non-physical realms on the spiritual path, that we don't want to engage anymore with the very logistical side of reality. Like the very practical sort of spreadsheet, you know, task management software side of reality. and I had a lot of resistance to that when I first met my husband Benjamin. My husband is like, that is one of his greatest gifts is his ability to hold containers and structures.

And he's been a very successful entrepreneur for many, many decades. And so when I sort of understood like the workload, literally the workload of what it was going to take to actually make this vision of reality, there was a lot of resistance that came up. And what's happened over the years is I have this notes tab in my phone called sacred logistics. And really what's happened is I can't get around it. I can't escape the fact that if I want to build something, I'm going to need to break the tasks down into smaller tasks. And I'm going to need to have a calendar and I'm going to need to have Zoom calls. I'm going to have a team. And I need to have bank accounts.

I'm going to need to actually engage with the practical side of reality. me just sitting in a cave and visualizing it being done is part of it, right? But it's not the whole story. So alchemizing the resistance is probably the biggest thing that I've been doing, and I think quite successfully over the last five, six years. And the tool, the key that has really helped me do that has been seeing the sacredness in all of it. So sacred logistics, like, okay, even though I have to do these, these things that maybe I would prefer not to do, how can I see that those are also expressions

of the divine in form? And how can I change my relationship to those things? And how can I actually make them beautiful and ceremonial? Because I personally love a space that feels ceremonial. I love the intention. I love the song. I love the prayer. I love the candles. I love the incense smoke. You know, I love all the things that make something feel ceremonial. So how can I infuse those same practices into these very, you know, quote unquote, tedious or mundane tasks? And I kind of like to call myself the ceremonial CEO. I'm not really the CEO. I'm like the chief energetics officer.

My husband's more of the proper CEO. But yeah, like how do I infuse this playfulness and this celebratory energy and this feeling of like reverence? How do I make it reverent? every single step along the way. And I'm starting to share this more with the world through my online offerings and in person as well. And I'm seeing there's such a hunger for that. There's such a desire for people to make the entrepreneurial path more sacred.

So yeah, that's what I would say to answer that question. Yeah, the merging of both of those is very exciting and more examples I feel like are popping up every single day and I think what we both strive to be a leader in that new paradigm where to merge heaven on earth, you know, requires both individuals who can realize that state of being within themselves, but then also have the understanding and capacity to organize the systems and teams and logistics and all the things that are necessary in the material 3D world to to bring those things into this reality, you know? And so I think both of us are passionate about scaling the evolution of consciousness.

And I think it's a value, I'm sure. I feel that a lot of our listeners tuning in right now also share. And so it just, yeah, it feels exciting to me to dive a little bit more into what the leadership 2.0, if you will, sort of looks like. I think fundamentally, like we need to learn how to lead ourselves first. and then we can lead others in groups and organizations. But what have you seen and has there been a predominant challenge in the birthing of what you feel like is a new paradigm of leadership

when we see a lot of leadership around us that pales? Well, I think what I'm most interested in is who's leading the leader? Or what is leading the leader? You know, like if I am a leader, which I am, what is leading me? You know, this kind of comes back to this idea of like, am I the space, am I the vessel for this current of life's intelligence to move through me? And if I'm truly listening to that and I'm aligned with that and I'm coherent with that and I'm looking at my own stuff so that whatever might get in the way of that or might distort that is not, then it's kind of like this trust-led leadership, right? I'm like, I'm trusting that these forces that are greater than me are actually, one, they have my best interest at heart and the best interest at heart of what I'm creating and the teams I'm leading

are the people or the vision. And so if I know for me, the leaders I'm most inspired by are the people I want to learn from are the ones who I feel like are the most in service to that, are the most out of their own way, and then are also able to translate that into something that is tangible and real and fits into the current structures and systems that exist all around us in a way that is, again, quite practical. So I think leadership is asking us to be leaders in the new paradigm is asking us to get probably like 10 levels more honest with ourselves, like way more honest with ourselves about really where we are at in our personal journey and really own like our stuff and what that can look like more tangibly is actually getting feedback from people,

like actually having mirrors, people who can reflect back to us the parts of ourselves that we can't see. You know, when my husband and I first started on this path, we made so many assumptions. Like that was one of our biggest blind spots was we made assumptions. We assumed people knew what we were doing. We assumed our team knew what we was knew what we were doing. We assumed all sorts of things. And those assumptions led to complexities and complications and potentially even conflict. And so we brought in people that could reflect these blind spots back to us and have the difficult conversations and be like, hey, you're doing it again. Do you want to keep doing this or you want to do it differently?

Like, and those are not fun moments. Those are not like exciting moments. It's exciting to build something and have a vision. It's not exciting to sit down with your team and be told that, you know, you're actually leading in a way that's creating confusion or making people feel unseen, right? And these are kind of the ripples that come from a leadership that is maybe so goal oriented that it puts blinders on to everything else. And that is the model of leadership that we have. It's essentially when we look at the people who are kind of running the show on planet Earth, like they're operating in that way.

And so top down. Very top down, yeah. Yeah, what does it look like to actually keep the vision, of course? Like it's our job, right? Leaders are storytellers. The best leaders are the best storytellers. And we must be able to embody the vision. the reality of the vision made manifest with such conviction that everyone else organizes around that vision.

That's what leadership actually is. So you have to have a little bit of like a bat-shit crazy commitment to your vision, right? But the shadow side is you can fall into the shadow of deafness, right? You can become deaf to the people around you that are actually helping you make it happen. And if you're not slowing down enough to stop and listen to them and receive feedback from them and receive reflections that might be kind of hurtful to your ego from them, then you're probably missing the point. I also feel, as a human dude, I'm a human guy dude.

I feel that evolution of leadership in many ways could be described as the divine masculine, you know, from a guy's perspective, you know, and the evolution of what it means to hold a container for people, for a vision to come manifest without losing your sensitivity and communication with those around you and life, you know? And again, we do see so many examples where it is that kind of control over paradigm. And what we're talking to is the next evolution of what that looks like where you maintain your listening, your awareness, your sensitivity, while still being a presence of clarity and direction. Yeah. That's exciting to me. I would say that's to me more of an integrated model than a masculine or feminine model. It's like really when those two are coming

together and working kind of like the DNA helix, you know, like they're really flowing together. But of course, we need the structure. We need the container. We need the masculine drumbeat. And then I think the empathy, the ability to listen to the field, because every organization, if you're building a company or an organization, has its own field. And one of the One of our greatest teachers on this path has been Astrid Brink, who's really the head of our institute and also facilitating a lot of the programs inside of our organization and has been such a bringer really of like a steward of the culture. And she's like, culture is not what you write in your mission, vision, value statement. That's not your culture. That's just words.

your culture is actually the energy of the field, the emanation of the field. So when a perfect stranger walks in off the street into one of your meetings, what are they picking up on? What are they feeling? Are people expanded? Are people present? Are people excited? Are people feeling the ability to raise their hand and say something difficult in the space?

Like, that's your culture. And I think the next level of leadership that's required is, again, like having a all these pieces come together. And we need guidance like around that. There are not a lot of instruction manuals for it that exist. So we've been working on putting together programs that allow people to go through that kind of training and really understand how to apply that to their own lives. And it has to be this blend, I think, of leadership training and also personal transformation because the two go hand in hand. You can't really have a new paradigm leader that's not also doing the personal work. Yeah, there is the glass.

is essentially where the leader is willing to go and explore and expand to. And I think this applies to all of us beyond leaders. Of course, we're all leaders in our own way in our own lives. But as co-creators for a new world, you know, I'm curious how you feel like this applies. And then also, like, as we start to head towards wrapping up, I'm just curious if you want to share anything else you're working on and programs and all the things that's coming on the other side of this rebirth. Yeah, there's a lot to share.

Yeah, I guess what I'm really seeing is this longing. I'm seeing this desire in people to understand how to lead in a different way because we do need leaders right now. And I think that really expanding the definition of what it means to be a leader, recognizing that, you know, no matter how big or small the thing is that we're here to do and size is irrelevant, but the ability to impact other human beings and then have a ripple of impact in our communities. That could be at a local level, you know, can be at a international level. We're all designed differently, but I think one of the things that really excites me is kind of like activating and catalyzing this new generation of leaders.

And one of the other really interesting things that's happening right now on the planet that isn't talked about a lot, and this kind of goes back to like money and that whole piece, is that we are in the next 10, 15 years, we're looking at the largest wealth transfer that's ever happened in the history of, like in human history. So like trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars are going to be transferred from one generation to the next. And the values of the new generation versus the old generation are very different today. And the context is very different, right? Because we now know that the way we've been doing things is not going to work in the same way. Like, we have to change the way that we live and create and make money on this planet.

So as this sort of extractive model that has allowed us to dominate nature and extract from nature and has led us to this climate crisis moment, as that all becomes illuminated and is no longer are justifiable, the new generation has this huge challenge and opportunity, which is like, how do I deploy all of this capital, all this life force energy in the form of money, into something that is actually not just sustainable, but regenerative? And that is one of the greatest questions that I think we can collectively try and solve right now, is like, well, what does that actually look like? And how does that actually make sense from a fiscal perspective, from an environmental perspective,

So in the deep inquiry and kind of the continual prayer for us, my husband and I personally, like, how can we be of greatest service? What keeps coming through is serve the leaders and serve the stewards of wealth to come together and basically figure out what the answers to these questions are going to be. And I think a big answer is in the form of regenerative businesses and, you know, models of entrepreneurship that allow us to create value that's in a way that's a win-win-win all around right and yeah it's it's a really exciting moment to kind of be in the exploration of that because there's a wave of energy that can fertilize a new reality and so I think for us to be able to

hold the containers in the spaces for people to come into those explorations and to go through a process that is facilitated that allows them to answer those questions for themselves, we've had to go through it ourselves, right? We've had to basically pioneer it. So the last decade plus has been essentially a giant initiation into what that means. And so the way it's tangibly manifested itself for us has been, like I mentioned this Mexico project, which is really like, what does it mean to build a town of the future, how we, where we live differently together? And the transformational component is held by Kavanaugh, and then the, the the community component is held by Musa.

One of the things that's come out of this fire and the loss of our house is also, again, a recognition that what we need is not the polished guru model of like the person that has it all figured out, but what we need is actually inspiring stories that don't just stay at inspiration but actually lead to integration. So real stories of real humans, real humans, real leaders, real people who are choosing to do things differently, in the trenches of trying to figure it out. And then one of the things that we can bring that's unique is the storytelling

component of that. So actually telling that story, documenting it in real time, and then essentially extracting the wisdom from the story to turn it into a replicable blueprint that can serve others. So that's kind of some of the ways that we have been meeting this moment, really. And this initiative, one of the key components, I think, of a new paradigm way of creating anything is, like I said earlier, we need those mirrors, right? We need the people who are going to hold us accountable. And I think the true, one of the greatest sources of prosperity that we have available to us is the relationships, the human relationships that we have. And so forming this alliance to be able to support this process of regeneration here in LA locally

specifically, but in a way that can be relevant for the rest of the world has been kind of the immediate thing that has come out of this. And we've assembled some really powerful people, including Zach Bush, who's putting together a team right now to reimagine what the Pacific Palisades in Malibu, you know, Altadena could look like on the other side of this because he's been studying, you know, what he calls agrohoods, like agriculture neighborhoods, where people are actually living inside of food forests and like there's a whole new way of doing this, you know? We don't just have to build houses next to each other and pour a bunch of cement on the earth and then go to grocery stores and pay $27 for a smoothie at Air One.

Like, we can do this differently, but how? Like that needs to be modeled and it needs to be shown. And I think there's something really exciting about the messy real-time exploration of that. That for me as a documentary filmmaker and storyteller is really exciting. So this initiative that we launched is called In Like life we trust. And it's kind of a philanthropic arm inside of Kavanaa. Yeah, it feels like a really beautiful opportunity to really reorient some of the, really the resources that we have available to us. You know, we have a team that is versed in holding safe spaces for people to process deep emotions

and also grief. And there's a whole mental, emotional and spiritual healing component that will come on the other side of the physical stuff needing to be taken care of, right? It's easy to get focus so much on how do people get back into their homes and all of that. But all of the other repercussions need to be looked at as well. And so we feel like we have a really beautiful opportunity to make services available and show up for those impacted by the fires. Oh, that's awesome. We'll link down where people can find more information about that. Please, yeah. Yeah. Love you guys. Love Zach dearly. And yeah, it's exciting. I've, you know, there is, you know, The video of Newsome, who's like sharing his vision for like reimagining LA2.00 or whatever, did not get the best vibes from that in that video.

And I think we need more leaders and individuals who are sharing something that really has the best intention for nature and for what can come that's in harmony with life and nature. So cool, very exciting. I have a telegram channel where I just kind of share my musings as they come through in real time because there's so much coming through. And the last one I recorded was reclaiming wealth and power on the spiritual path. And I really just, this is almost more kind of like me just getting on my soapbox for a moment and saying to anyone listening, like, one of the greatest gifts I think we can give the world on our spiritual path is to reclaim wealth and power as something that we get to steward. because without wealth and power we are not going to create the new paradigm.

Like we are not going to build things. We are not going to change the fabric of society in the way that it needs to change in order for future generations to even have a chance at this thing called life. So how can we include these things that we have historically judged as not spiritual or not pure?

And how can we include them and alchemize them and turn them into something that is truly an expression of the divine? So I'm really passionate, passionate about that and very much actively supporting people who are in that process and will continue to just create as many spaces for the people who want to learn how to do that in a good way as possible. Yeah, I think from the old paradigm, money and the desire for the acquisition of more of it is seen as sort of this kind of narcissistic, narcissistic way to

gain power over people. And when it's coming from the new paradigm, you know, and you're living in harmony with nature and you're being guided by a greater intelligence that is that is meant to serve people truly then the acquisition of more money and power in that sense and ability to move things in the world and and be an impact leader in that way is as noble it's just it's just another tool in which you can really support at at scale and so it becomes you know again it's like you've said you know said it many times that money like many things aren't inherently good or bad, you know, and they just reveal more of who we are. And so... I mean, it's just a necessity. It's like, you know, if you want to play poker, you need a

chip. Like, it's just that. Like, it doesn't need to mean anything. And I think the people who want it the least, because they're the most unattached to the material stuff, like making them feel worthy, are the ones who should have it, you know, because then the stewardship of it will actually be possible versus the hoarding of it or the needing for it to just constantly grow and grow and grow and amplify for, you know, the 0.01%. Like, that's not working. So, yeah, it's just something, especially women, I see so many women who are so afraid of power and money. And so it's just like, how do we reclaim that and allow that to be a beautiful and divine part of our path? On that note, what is the difference you think you feel between identifying as the owner of something

versus being a steward and working with, you know, things? There's a different, texture and being a steward and specifically that word versus sort of identifying as the sole kind of controlling force over something. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like I said earlier, Richard Rudd talks about how you can't make insight happen. You can't force it, but you can create the circumstances for it to happen. I think stewardship is about recognizing that whatever this thing is, whether it's my child or my business, I can't make it happen. I can't make it happen. I can't make it the thing I want it to be, but I can create the environment for it to flourish. I can create the circumstances. So I'm kind of stewarding the experience of this thing in a way

that I believe will allow it to unfold its highest expression. But I also remain humble enough to know that I may not know exactly what the highest expression is of that thing, right? And I think we can get trapped when we think we know what it should be, right? When we project onto the child that it should be a PhD when really it just wants to be, you know, a graffiti artist. Like that is one example or even in our case. Like we, we've had such a strong desire to have a plan and a strategy and like a timeline of when we're going to open our retreat center in Mexico and how that's all going to work and we're going to self-fund and we're going to be in control of this whole thing. And then life was like, you're cute kids, you know. None of those things

are happening right now. Life circumstances have placed us in a situation where now the option to self-fund is no longer there. So now we get to invite others to participate in this vision. There was resistance to that. There was fear around that because there was the part that wanted to be the owner. But true stewardship is like this vision is bigger than us. It's not just about us and what we think it should be. It's about welcoming other people to be a part of it and bring it to life and share the responsibility of the creation of this in a way that forces us into collaboration. And even though it's scary, it's also really exciting. So those are some examples I think of the difference. To me, I think it's more about holding it with an open palm versus like with a

clenched fist. Maintaining relationship and communication with it. I think all of our projects are relationships, like a relationship to a child, you know, the more you control and try to create a version of yourself and that thing, then you throw it its ability to be something better than you can imagine. And I think a lot of our conversation today, and I know what you guys have written in your book is everything you didn't know you wanted. And so being a steward in relationship to a project is just like a child. And for this podcast, you know, it's like it's its own being in a way. And in relationship and the discovery was, you know, what it's becoming and what it can be is very exciting. And to maintain that, we've got to retain our ability to listen in that

process. So, cheers to being stewards. Yeah, and we keep coming back to listening. That's been a theme throughout this whole conversation. For sure. For sure. It's cool to see the evolution of your guys' mission and story and how it's evolved. And getting to witness people firsthand, people that you love, your friends and family, like continually trust deeper and deeper in life is a privilege. to be witnessed too. So yeah, it was awesome for me. Beautiful. Thank you for having me here. Thanks for coming. And for everybody that's been tuning in, I'm curious for you to share your thoughts of what you're committed to being a steward of. I know if you've been affected

by the LA fires, we'll link down the initiative that we mentioned previously down below, but then also ways to contribute. You know, there's a lot of help that it's needed. What is really beautiful and always comes on the other side of a lot of tragedy is the coming together in support of people across the board. And so that is a silver lining. And yeah, everybody, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode. I'll see you next week. Take care.