Know Thyself - E136 - Jillian Turecki: How To Find Love, Keep Love & Become Love

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Relationship expert Jillian Turecki reveals how to overcome the blocks that ruin relationships and begin crafting your love life from within. Jillian shares her personal journey, detailing the pivotal moments of miscarriage and divorce that transformed her perspective on love and relationships. She emphasizes that love truly begins with oneself, urging listeners to self-source their wholeness before seeking it in others. As the conversation unfolds, we delve into the pitfalls of expectations and how they can undermine relationships, while also discussing the importance of mindful approaches to love.Jillian offers insights on how relationships act as mirrors, reflecting our inner selves and highlighting compatibility, especially during the often-glamorous honeymoon phase. Together, we demystify the concept of self-love, challenging societal misconceptions about love and relationships. We tackle tough questions like whether to break up or stay together, the dangers of falling for someone's potential, and identifying red flags, even those that may seem overly nice. Finally, we explore what men and women generally seek in relationships and the profound lessons she has learned about love, including the importance of making peace with our parents. This conversation is not just about finding the right partner; it’s a deep dive into understanding ourselves better, fostering healthier relationships, and ultimately creating the love life we desire. Sponsor:Convenient and affordable therapy with BetterHelp. Get started today and enjoy 10% off your first month:https://www.betterhelp.com/knowthyselfAndré's Book Recommendations: https://www.knowthyself.one/books___________0:00 Intro1:10 Miscarriage & Divorce: The Turning Point that Changed Her Life7:23 Love Begins With You10:40 Self Sourcing Your Wholeness14:55 Expectations Ruin Relationships21:34 Finding the One & Surviving the Honeymoon Phase27:38 Demystifying Self Love 30:37 Ad: BetterHelp32:13 Our Culture Gets This Wrong About Love37:24 Should You Break Up or Stay Together? 41:47 Don’t Fall in Love with Potential45:40 Red Flags: Are They TOO Nice?50:16 Cultivating Trust in Love & Life56:48 What Men & Women Really Want (Generally)1:02:17 Making Peace with Your Parents1:08:08 The Biggest Lesson She’s Learned from Love1:10:30 What It Means to Know Thyself 1:12:31 Conclusion ___________Jillian Turecki is a relationship coach, teacher, podcaster, writer, and speaker who has devoted her life to helping people revolutionize their relationships with themselves. For over 20 years, Jillian has maintained a deep commitment to authenticity, compassion, and inner transformation as she follows her insatiable curiosity about what makes relationships thrive. Between Jillian’s podcast, “Jillian on Love,” her newsletter, “Love Weekly,” and her social media community, Jillian reaches millions of people who seek her actionable, compassionate, direct, and research-driven insight. As the founder of Jillian Turecki Coaching, Jillian has changed the lives of countless individuals around the world through her transformative workshops, courses, retreats, and one-on-one coaching sessions. Her forthcoming book is a groundbreaking look at love, partnership and self-love based on Jillian’s decades of experience and research.Book "It Begins With You": https://www.jillianturecki.com/bookWebsite: https://www.jillianturecki.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/jillianturecki/?hl=en___________Know ThyselfInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/Website: https://www.knowthyself.oneClips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKgListen to all episodes on Audio: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927André DuqumInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/

The relationship we have with ourselves is the most important relationship we will ever have. The biggest misconception is I'll meet the one and then we are going to have a great relationship. It's like, no, you could meet the one and you could screw it all up. This is what happens in relationship. We have so many expectations. And the one expectation that people don't really recognize is somehow this other person is responsible for my happiness. And that is happening all the time. There's two camps of thought.

You have to completely love yourself in order to be in a healthy relationship. relationship or it does not matter. You learn to love yourself while you're in a relationship. And I see it's somewhere in the middle. But the greatest love is love that you feel safe with. You really shouldn't commit your heart to someone with whom you don't feel that. This feeling that we can't feel fulfilled unless we are in a relationship. That's a dangerous place to be. Fulfillment truly is an inside job. And finding meaning in life and purpose in life, that is something that truly begins with us. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. June 2, 2014. What happened? I woke up that morning to what would be basically an early miscarriage. And I made an appointment. My husband had already left for work. And I had to go to the gynecologist, just confirm pregnancy and do things.

that you have to do when that's happening. And I called him or text him, just tell him what was happening and asked him if he would come with me and he said, no, he was too busy. And then later that day in the afternoon, he texted me and just said he's going to stay at his parents for a little while. And then I knew at that moment that he was fleeing the relationship. And so I called him and it was a dramatic conversation, and he never came home again. And at that time, my mother was dying of terminal cancer and had about, I don't know, two months to live. A lot. That was a big day. Yeah, no, it's tough. Yeah. And, you know, you start out in your new book with that story, which really sets up the frame for the journey that you would then go on over the, you know,

past decade now. Yes. What do you see is that moment and that time as a turning point for your life and the direction and you shifted after that? Yeah, I always say it was like sort of the day that I died in a way. And there was, I mean, for lack of a better way to describe it almost like a rebirth. I mean, it was literally the day where my life just was like, okay, you are on one path and now you are completely on a different path. And it was it was abrupt and it was a change and everything, everything. changed in my life in that moment. Typically, when a person experiences that sort of abrupt change, it is quite traumatic. It's kind of a big deal. Something, in other words, typically something happens

in a person's life that's out of their control, right? And that they can't change the circumstances. And because of that, that new path, you're kind of thrust it, but you're reluctant, you're resistant. you don't want to be on it. But then your survival depends on walking that path and figuring it out. And so that's why when I think of that day and when I describe it in the book, I say it's the death of a relationship, but it was the death, it was the end of my life as I knew it and the beginning of a new chapter. And I had absolutely no idea, nothing to look for it. I thought, you know, The future was not bright. It was just dark. But, you know, we are designed to survive. So that's what I did. And then I figured out a way to make it more than just survival, to make it actually really mean something. I felt called to do something else with my life. And when I describe it, you know, I get concerned because I don't want to romanticize. size, a person's life falling apart and whatnot. But there is something when you can look back,

you know, we can look back at very hard times and think, wow, well, now I understand why that happened. Yeah. Yeah, always hindsight is clear, looking back and in the moment, you know, death of a life feels like death. Literally. And oftentimes, people that go on to do some amazing things, were challenged with incredibly hard situations to face to overcome to triumph. And I'm curious, looking back at that point now, with the past decade under your belt of coaching and writing and teaching and supporting so many people throughout their times of loss and finding a new connection and understanding what love is,

it's pushed you and probably equipped you uniquely, unlike any other experience would. You have this capacity within you now because of the depth you've gone yourself. Sure. And so what would you say are the questions you started asking yourself after that moment of challenge? And what are some of those questions that we could be asking ourselves when we face that? Well, of course, in the beginning, there was the survival questions of like, why me? Why is this happening? But typically when we ask ourselves those questions, the answers that we get are not exactly empowering. You know, whatever. You suck or, you know, God is punishing. Whatever it is. but as you start to kind of emerge a little bit from that intensity,

one of the most important questions we can ask ourselves is, what could this mean? Like, could this mean something other than, you know, life sucks? What does this mean and what does life want from me? What do I want? What do I want? One of the hardest questions for a person to answer is what do I? I want? Oftentimes, you ask someone when you want, and they're just like, um, I, I don't know.

So that is one of the most powerful questions you can ask yourself, what do I want? And who I think I am is different at different points in my life. That's going to inform what we think we want, right? Yes. And I can reliably see that we always will say we want, something we believe we're worthy of. And so it's like there are confines within what we say we want, you know, between subconscious limiting beliefs and self-worth. And what we think is possible. And I know a lot of your work is really supporting people stretch to see what they truly are worthy of

and are deserving of. What would you say is the thesis and a kind of premise with your book, with like a bunch of your work now, what do you boil it down to as the core of what you're trying to support people with? I think it's the title of the book that it begins with you. And that's not the same thing as the platitude that's out there of, you know, hi, the problem is me or you're the problem. It's not about that. You could actually not really be the core problem, so to speak. In other words, that's not the lens that we should be looking at this through. It's more, if I, if I, want something to change in my life. I have to create some changes to my thinking and to my choices.

And that can be a heavy lift because changing our thinking means changing some of our beliefs. It's uncovering the things that have been sort of in our unconscious and bringing them into our conscious awareness. And then looking at it and challenging some of the those beliefs, if necessary. And that most of the things that we want in life, the reason why we don't have them, not always, but a lot of times, especially when we talk about romantic love, is in some way we are standing in our own way. And so I believe that the relationship we have with ourselves is the most important relationship we will ever have. And that's not to encourage just total individualism or not needing anyone. Have your relationship with yourself still means you need

people because we need people. But it really is the most important thing. And sometimes strengthening our relationship with ourselves means overcoming selfishness, overcoming things of the ego, and overcoming fear and all of that. So I really try to encourage people to have an understanding of who they are. What do you see as the predominant barriers that stop people from doing so? Of trying to understand who they are? Fear, stubbornness, which is usually cloaked in fear. It can be overwhelming.

And, you know, it's not like you shouldn't be looking inward all the time, you know? That's not all about you. Like, it begins with you, but it's not all about you. You know, you don't want to be kind of. constantly self-reflecting, but, you know, a lot of people, they, well, what's the point? You know, that's, that's for wusses, whatever it is. It's just, it's belief system and it's, and it's usually fear. It's like, okay, so if I go there, what am I going to discover? And is that going to be too much for me to handle emotionally? I think, like, life is so trippy,

where we often project the things we want as only being capable of getting outside of ourself. Like there's externalization of feelings that we really can only give ourselves. And we can, of course, get in the mirrors through relationships and career and things. But in many ways, we truly want to become the love that we seek. And we seek it through many different means. And we want the feelings behind the things that we say we want. And so how much of your work do you see is bringing people back into real,

that they can actually self-source a lot of the things that they are so clinging externally for? Hugely, look, there is something that romantic love, particularly in the early stages of romantic love, when the lust and the passion is high, that, you know, is uniquely is unique, right? But, or and, I should say, this feeling that we can't feel fulfilled unless we have this person in our life. We can't feel fulfilled unless we are in a relationship. We can't source love. We can't source connection unless we're in a relationship.

That's a dangerous place to be because usually that leads to poor choices. it's also, it's not true. And fulfillment truly is an inside job. And finding meaning in life and purpose in life, that is something that truly begins with us. And so I have to help a lot of people recognize that, let's just say they meet someone. And let's just say this person has been alone for a long time.

They haven't felt a connection with someone a long time. And let's throw in a little bit of boredom. and a little bit of like, oh, I don't know, like, you know, there's nothing in my day that's really captivating me or captivating my attention. Let's just throw all that into this person, make it a little bit of a perfect storm. And then they meet someone and they feel that chemistry with them. What is triggered inside of them is aliveness. That aliveness that's in dormant for a long time because they've been waiting to feel this connection because they're a little bit bored because they haven't been doing things in their life that gives them sparks of joy or sparks of

excitement, whatever it is. And then we think this person, and it's an unconscious thought, but this person is my ticket out of the monotony of my life. And they are the reason why I feel so good when really they are just the trigger. They're the stimulus, really, that trigger. That trigger. inside of you, that dormant feeling. It's not really about them. Because first of all, they're a stranger. Maybe if it develops into a real relationship, they become someone who adds to that and really does enhance your life tremendously. But right now they're just a stranger. And so I help a lot of people recognize that when they get all obsessive over someone who they barely know, that what's actually happening is for them to understand that they are something that person is just the vehicle that

has triggered something that actually exists inside of you already. And that maybe if you learn how to meet your needs more, maybe if you evaluate your life and do more things that kind of make you feel alive, maybe it's, you know, it's not going to be the exact same thing as that, but you can feel moments of oneness that has nothing to do with another person and a romantic partner, then we can start to craft a different story for that person. It's really a persistent delusion. It's so enchanting. And of course, not just with romantic relationships, but, you know, so many different things we outsource our sense of joy. And I do think that there is a level of fulfillment that comes with alignment of what you feel like you're here

to be doing in your career and, you know, being matched with a partner that is in alignment with your values. But there's kind of two routes, right? First, we either discover before going to relationships that that delusion is in fact a delusion, or we learn through the trials and tribulations in the relationship that we're putting our expectations of fulfillment of love solely in another person. And I'm just curious how much of the trife you see in relationships are stemming from an overload of expectations. Oh, that's pretty much one of the the biggest things. And I, we're all guilty, you know, we're all guilty of, of having, I mean, you can't really go through life, not having any expectations. I mean, you can try to,

but we all have some expectations, but we have so many expectations in a relationship and lowered amount of appreciation. And the one expectation that people don't really recognize, and we're all guilty of this is, you know, somehow this other person is responsible for my happiness. And I think that, you know, that we know we can understand or wrap our heads around intellectually, like cognitively, like, oh, no, no, no, I know that's not true. But this is what happens in relationships. We'll get frustrated with our partner. And of course, sometimes that's a legitimate frustration. Let's not forget that. But oftentimes we'll get frustrated with our partner. And it's because they are not exactly

how we want them to be in that moment. And what we're doing is projecting our expectations, our perfectionism, our stuff onto them. And then we see them as falling short when really the problem is not them. The problem is in our thinking and not actually appreciating that person for who they are. And that is happening all the time. And the reality of how it happens all time is very much so unconscious, right? Like we're unaware to the degree in which our subconscious projections are happening. We're just like looking through them. We're too close to our own bullshit in many ways. Yeah. This is why mindfulness and self-awareness is so important. What's that? I know, exactly. I know for sure. So I'm curious how much you see, like, for example,

when people talk about, like, we go out and try to date our parents and we look for what's familiar and that feels safe to us. Even if love showed up in a chaotic format when we were younger, it feels safer to us because it's familiar. Yeah, how do you navigate getting awareness and bringing mindfulness to people that are projecting a lot of that stuff? First, I want to say because it's important that I say this. Not everyone does that. I know that there's a lot of talk about, like, that's what we always do. Not everyone does that. So that's a certain pathology that does, that not everyone, not everyone is marrying their parent, you know, like, or marrying a representation. But many people do, and it's also one of the things that causes a lot of struggle in relationships

and in couples, which is why it's important to address it. You know, I think it's more, there's two ways to look at it. One is, let's just say you're already in the marriage or you're already in the relationship and you're realizing that you married some of your unfinished business from your childhood. Then it's just about bringing awareness to the couple and then helping each other manage your projections and communicating and sort of building a new story and healing together. I mean, that's really the goal. When it comes to dating, I think it's, well, let's just say it's problematic when you date the parent

who once again you have unfinished business with, unresolved stuff with. And so then maybe you, you know, your father ignored you or your father was an alcoholic and ignored you or wasn't very nice to you. And then you're dating people who look and their vibe is totally different. but guess what? You're like in that same familiar feeling dynamic with them. You know, learn, learn. You know, let's say you're single and looking. Learn about what works for you. What are some of the patterns that you have and hopefully you learn and you rise up and you choose someone different. You'd say, oh, now I know what to look for. I don't want someone with whom I have to have this dynamic with.

That's too painful. Okay. So what is it about this person? maybe they have this trait or that trait. And that's something that I really have to make, I have to promise myself that I'm not going to go for that. I'm going to go for a very different kind of person who can offer me something very different in the relationship. It's a process. Yeah, and it also feels like it's inevitable

that friction and tension will show up in relationship dynamics. It's almost perfectly designed to bring up our stuff. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It is because it's where we feel most vulnerable. It's where we fear the loss of love and fear not being enough the most. And so that in it of itself is very triggering. And because love is not, it's a very, it's a funny thing.

The greatest love is love that you feel safe with. And the paradox is that nothing is really safe about love. You can lose the person. The person could die. They're not obligated to keep. So there's so much uncertainty that's built into being in a relationship. So that's very triggering. Yeah.

How helpful do you feel like it is to come into relationships with the knowing that they are a mirror? Like I think that invites the opportunity to view challenges as they arise as opportunities for growth. Absolutely. I do really believe that when you see a relationship as an opportunity to grow and not just as an opportunity to get your needs met. That's a beautiful thing. But it's also important to note sometimes the way in which you grow is to say no to certain people, you know, because they don't treat you well. But yeah, it's always, look, when you have two people in a relationship who are

willing to be like, oh, that really bothered me, let me think. Is that me? Is that a me thing? Or is this something that I need to communicate with them about? That's the needle mover. Most people are not operating like that in a relationship, but it really makes a huge, huge difference. Yeah, we don't often like to look at what our part is in play here. No, we don't. Our egos are very stubborn.

What would you say then? Because there is this difference between character versus charm. Yes. And there is the infatuation with the parts of somebody's, being that are flashy or very enchanting at the beginning. But then there is the reality of what ingredients are actually necessary for the longevity of a relationship to be there. And what do you feel like those are?

Because if we have the former, which is great to have the charm and the chemistry and all of that, but the deepening of the compatibility and like those alignment of values, those things that we really need to be asking ourselves and also in communication with somebody we're starting to date? Yeah. What are those most important questions and things we need to? You have to always consider a person's character. And look, we all have work to do when it comes to our character, you know, and by character, I mean our integrity and our willingness to confront ourselves or our kindness. But I believe that we should all be striving to be good people and we should be wanting someone who's good, a good person who's generous and who's kind.

that doesn't mean to your point that you're not every kind person you're going to be attracted to. But what you're looking for in terms of longevity in a relationship is, let's just start with the basics. Do you feel relaxed around this person? And do they feel relaxed around you? And what I mean by that is you can really be yourself. You can just truly be yourself. You're quirky, weird, eccentric, flawed, beautiful self. That's so different from the dating rhetoric that's,

It's like the game. Oh, yes, I know. All of that. Yeah. Which is, you know, BS. So if you're looking for long-term relationship, that is the first thing. Do we feel comfortable really just being when we are around each other? And then it's, do we agree on what a life well lived is?

That's the core compatibility that's really important. because if you want long-term relationship, what's implied in that is that you want to create and build a life with someone. If you're going to build a life with someone, you have to be in alignment in terms of what you're building and what that vision is. And so that's key.

That's key. What are other distinguishing factors between lust and love? Well, lust happens when you barely know the person. and you don't really know their character. And lust is just a feeling, and love truly is also something that you do every day. It's showing up even when you're not in the mood. It's you're in pain, I'm listening. It's, I want to know you better.

It's, you matter so much to me that your needs are as important to me as my own. Lust has none of that. Lust is all about the projection of the fantasy and lots of feelings and emotions and it's nothing about building or creating or deeper emotional intimacy. For those that really would love to attract the love in their life and they assert that's something that they're striving to go for right now at this phase,

what do you see is the balance between, the strategies to go and meet people and the apps and all the things versus focusing more so on the inner work to become a vibratory match to attract the love that you seek. I think it's a combination. I think it's a combination of things. I think that there is, of course, like, you know, if you want this amazing person with strong character who's a communicator, it's like you have to ask, okay, am I a good communicator? Or you can even just say these are the things that I'm not great at.

So it would be great to have a partner who is good at this and, you know, maybe we compliment each other. It's always going to be a combination of the story that we have about love and relationships and about what we're capable of and then some strategy. And I think that people should use the apps if they're comfortable, but they have to use the apps, not to let the apps use them. And so they have to have some boundaries around that. And then I also believe in just getting out there and meeting people organically and expanding your circle. So the more people you meet, the more, the greater your chances are,

I was like, oh, let me introduce you to this person. Or I think this would be a really cool person to know. And you just never, ever know. And so part of being that vibratory match is also being able to say to yourself, yeah, I'm open. I'm open to this. I'm open to this experience. I'm open to stepping outside my comfort zone. And I know what I want. I think we're really fundamentally attracted to people who are confident within themselves and at ease and open within themselves. And a lot of us yearn also to arrive at that place. And your truth number four, which is you have to love yourself is, you know, is a common saying in the relationship scene, right? And it's probably the most Instagramable, you know, hashtag of hashtag love yourself.

Which is why I wanted to write that chapter to sort of demystify. of that, yeah. So I would love for you to demystify a little bit, and especially, you know, in the moments where it's hard to, you like, you know, when you, you know, talked about your journey over 10 years ago going through that part, you know, that point, I'm sure there was many points where it was hard to love yourself. Yeah. And I'm curious for you to walk us through the journey of starting to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and then what it actually looks like over years to develop that relationship with yourself. Well, first of all, when I think about self-love, my definition is self-acceptance. And I think of it through the frame of self-esteem, which is we hold

ourselves in high regard in spite of the fact that we don't really, we have some ambivalence about some of our parts, right? And I also talk about self-esteem from the framework of the things that build up self-confidence is doing hard things. The people who only live a very, safe life and never challenge themselves. It perpetuates the fear that they're not good enough. And so their self-esteem actually gets lower and lower because we cannot, we have to be challenged. We actually have to challenge ourselves. We have to climb the mountain, whatever that mountain is, and we have to do hard things. And then we can be proud of ourselves. It's like, if you think of a child, like being potty trained for the first time and they finally do it and they feel proud of

themselves. Like, that's, that's the building of self-esteem. Or, like, I grew up in New York City. So, it's like the first time that I actually took the public transportation by myself and then started doing that, that builds self-esteem. So we have to do hard things. But there's two camps of thought. You have to completely love yourself in order to be in a healthy relationship or it does not matter. You learn to love yourself while you're in a relationship. And I see it somewhere in the middle, which is, no, you don't have to completely love, like, you can struggle with certain parts of yourself and you don't have to be completely whole. And you do learn to love yourself in relationship, but I've never known a person who was in a deeply unhealthy relationship or was really, really deeply

struggling in their love life, who didn't also struggle with their self-worth. So we can't say, while we can't say that you have to completely be in love yourself and completely be healed to be in a relationship, we also can't say that it's irrelevant. Right, because if we don't have a degree of self-acceptance when meeting somebody, then we're in many ways attracting somebody through the lens of our own inadequacy, which then, of course, if both people are willing to grow, that can be a container for moving past that. But if you're also meeting somebody who is seeking that, and there is that kind of shadow or trauma bonding or whatever that looks like.

Or you tolerate terrible behavior from someone. Yeah, I've seen that for sure. Also, just like in the culture, I feel like I grew up in my like parents, parents, friends, where that's just sort of normalized in certain dynamics. Yeah. And we get very safe and comfortable in that dynamic. And yeah, it takes real courage to break those change of generational, you know. for sure and a lot of that is yeah there is a lot of cultural conditioning in that for sure

hey guys speaking of relationships this episode is sponsored by better help i feel like we always hear about red flags and relationships but what about green flags challenges and relationships are inevitable and if choosing a life partner is one of the most important decisions we're ever going to make, which I definitely feel like it is, then taking the time to reflect on the values and qualities that truly matter is essential. Not to just avoid conflict, but to build a partnership where you work as a team to navigate whatever comes your way. For me, a few of my biggest values in green flags are self-awareness, personal responsibility, and play. Maybe for you, it's someone's ability to truly listen, their sense of adventure or their nurturing presence. Just,

as important as knowing what we're looking for, though, is doing the inner work to become a vibratory match for the love we want to attract in the first place. And therapy can be a massive support in that process of healing, developing clarity, and refining our values in life. Better help makes therapy accessible and flexible. It's fully online and connects you with a network of over 30,000 credentialed therapists. You can switch therapists at any time at no extra cost, making it easy to find the right fit. Discover your relationship with green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash know thyself today and get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, h-E-L-P.com slash know thyself. Back to the show. What is a hot taker strongly held belief

you have around what love means in this culture and dating and love means in this culture that you think is just not true. Oh, God. That love is just a feeling. That love is just what romanticism says it is, that you're going to meet someone, and they're going to be able to read your mind, and they're going to be perfect, and you're going to be perfect for each other, and you're going to be soulmates, and you're never really going to run into problems, because when you're with the right person, they're going to be able to finish your sentences. That's it. That is the main thing that's corroding our understanding of love. And, you know, I think we all love a good Disney movie once in a while.

I mean, I love a rom-com. I mean, I'm a romantic at heart, but I also have to keep some of that in check. Yeah, that's what I'm saying is like those stories, which are, you know, great and enchanting, they also plant seeds throughout the conscious mind and subconscious mind of humanity and culture that there is a soulmate. There is, like, someone that you find and it's just the right person. instead of thinking we find the right person, you kind of forge it, you know. And I would love for you to dissect that a little bit of thinking that we have a soulmate,

that's the one right person that we're going to find in our life, versus we build that. Yeah. So everyone's unconscious seeks oneness, and everyone's unconscious seeks wholeness to feel whole. I would say also largely because we intuit at the, deepest level that we are one. Yeah.

Okay. I like that. Absolutely. Yeah. That's great. Absolutely. But we forget. Yeah.

And we want to feel that and we can, and we feel that in getting quiet. We can feel that in nature. Some of us can feel that moment of oneness when we listen to our favorite music or we're dancing. We have moments of that. And so when we meet someone and we feel very connected. to them, we are experiencing that feeling of oneness. And then we think, okay, this person is the one. But there is no one person out there for you. I mean, there is the one, like I said in the book,

and I really believe this, there's the one who you met when you were 16. There was the one who maybe you later married and then divorced. I mean, couldn't they all have been in some way soulmates and important people? I mean, and you can meet the one. And, you know, the biggest misconception is, I'll meet the one and then we are going to have a great relationship. It's like, no, you could meet the one and you could screw it all up because you didn't do any work on yourself. And so this idea that someone is going to come and complete us, I really believe, why be in a romantic relationship if it's not making your life better? If it's not this companion and this sounding board, and someone who believes in you

and can hold your hand as you fight your own battles. What's the point? You know, unless... Because the point is not sex because you can just have... You don't have to have a relationship to have sex. So I do believe that there is something special, potentially special to a relationship.

But it's a very dangerous, romanticized thought that when we meet this one person, all our problems are going to go away and that everything is going to be smooth. It shouldn't be a crazy ride, but you're going to have to do work. And behind every great couple are a lot of difficult conversations, a lot of tears, and a lot of patience, and a lot of biting your one's own tongue. I like that idea that, you know, a girlfriend I had at 17 and the one I had at 24, they weren't not the right one. They were the right one for the time of my life that I was in in my own stage of development. And if I were to meet the person I'm going to end up with probably at 16, I don't think we'd probably, who knows, it probably wouldn't drive the same.

Yeah, probably wouldn't last. Yeah. So I think that is inviting a sense of just like life's timing. has a way of bringing those relationships and dynamics in when we're ready for them. Yes. Do you have couples that you look up to that have been together for 40-50 plus years? Yeah, I have couples, friends who have been together for 20 years. And then the 40, 50 years would obviously have to be like their parents, grandparents.

And I have known them, but I have close friendships with people who have been together for actually longer, you know, longer 25 years even. I'm curious, you know, from that vantage point, when do you decide when inevitable difficulties arise in relationships and you're not sure and you're at the brink of, you know, letting go and the death of the dynamic of how it has been, not sure exactly in the uncertainty of what will take form after that, at, what point is, is it really meant to be let go of the relationship dynamic or, um, is it meant to, you know, endure, double down and figure it out? It's very, very difficult, um, to, it's a million dollar question. I think, um, I think that if you're committed to someone and as long as there isn't, it's, you're not absolutely miserable and, um, or there isn't mistreatment of any sort. I think you have to fight for your relationship and recognize that if you want to be with someone over decades, that you are

going to have many marriages within that marriage and that there's an opportunity for that and that you have to learn how to love and to grow and to grow together and to really and to really do that and to weather the storms together. But when is it time to just call it? I mean, I believe that. I also believe that divorce and breaking up is a huge. and right. So I don't, if you're absolutely miserable, if you can't stand each other, don't stay together. Or you're just, you're not in love anymore or the relationship has changed form. My only thing is if you want, if you need to walk away and get out of it, fine, but you better do some self-reflecting after that because it wasn't, it's rarely

that a relationship didn't work out because you're just not the right match. Didn't work out because there's some things that you maybe have to self-reflect on. It invites the perspective to truly know and reflect on the reason why you're leaving a relationship. And if it's simply because a lack of willingness to look at your own stuff, then it's just going to show up in the next dynamic. Very well said. I'm very true. But then there's, I guess, fundamental misalignment. And you believe people can just genuinely just grow in different directions. Yes, they can.

And sometimes people grow in different directions because they have not been nurturing the relationship enough. And sometimes they grow in different directions because life is long and they've been together a long time. Maybe they started when they were young and they changed a lot. These things happen. Yeah, I think there's part of us that almost expects their hopes

that our partner is not going to change from who we've met. And it feels like the big. biggest illusion because that's the only thing we ever do. It's the only thing we ever do. Exactly. And some people will say, well, they're not changing enough. It's like, well, they're just not changing in accordance with how you want them to change. And look, maybe what is bothering you about your partner is super legitimate and valid.

But you can't change them. And you can't change them. You know, some people are slow changers. Some people are fast changers. and if you can't be in the relationship and accept each other, I mean, look, this all boils down also to one's belief system around partnership and marriage and commitment. Is your belief system that, you know, I'm supposed to feel romantically in love with this person every single day? Or do I understand that love is also a choice?

And that sometimes I'm not going to feel all that passion, but I'm still passionate about keeping this relationship intact. Is your belief system that, okay, the passion is waning a little bit. Usually when the passion wanes, it's because the couple is a little bored, and they're not doing enough fun things together because we need a little bit of dopamine. We need a little bit of cortisol producing activities that we do together to ignite the chemistry and the spark again. You know, so it's just your level of what is your belief system around commitment? I think in discerning between how long,

once stays in a relationship, whether they want to embark on that journey with somebody, we can have this over-romanticization of potential. And that's great to hold the potential of who somebody can be, but almost the expectation of it is what sucks the energy from the dynamic versus admitting the current patterns that somebody has. And of course, if somebody's willing to grow, like, if somebody has willingness to change and grow and like that is a core value and pillar between both of you, then that is probably one of the most important things. But what do you think about, yeah, that falling in love with potential over the pattern? Look, I really believe that, you know, it's a beautiful thing to see the potential in someone

and to see them as, I mean, look, there's been, there's lots of stories of older women, like in their 70s who said, you know, I've had many, many, I would say, like six conversations with women who said, you know, I met him, my husband, and he was poor. Like, he had nothing, but I knew that he was, like, really meant for something, and I really wanted to be the person behind that. Now, you know, that happened. So seeing potential is an amazing thing. And I think because women, I use that example because I think women fall into that trap more

of, like, falling in love with potential. So it's a beautiful thing to see someone's potential. But it's also a dangerous thing. oh, I see what he could be, but what's actually really in front of me is a train wreck. And I'm not, I don't want to see that. Instead, I want to fix him, train him, change him, wait for him to change, be the inspiration for his change, and be a martyr in the relationship and a total codependent that does not focus at all on me, just only focuses on him or her dysfunction. And I'm going to be incredibly unhappy. And guess what? They're going to be incredibly unhappy too, because no one

wants to be in a relationship with someone who's trying to change them. Mic drop. Mike drop. No one. Facts. Facts, yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good stuff.

Yeah, I think it's just such an insidious, like, thing, too, because we don't realize we're doing it. Oftentimes, like, we don't see how we're getting into a dynamic with the hope of what something might be, you know, and I feel like it's natural, and it's become normalized, too, to try to have a savior complex or wanted to fix somebody. Yes. Seems really noble. But it's also just reinforcing our own sense of inadequacy

and feeling like we need to be the fixer. Yes. Or the inspiration for them fixing themselves, whatever it is. Yeah, we have to be the fixer. It's exhausting. Yeah. Do you think that the best thing that we can truly do if we want to inspire change is to be it ourselves?

Would you say that? Absolutely. And then also what I would add to that is let them be, let them be who they are, accept them for who they are. And then maybe, not a guarantee, but maybe once you take the pressure off them, they will find their way. Maybe. But they are for sure not going to do whatever it is that you want them to do because you want them to do it. That because most people, what happens is they can sense that. And what we do, whether we're conscious of it or not, we dig our heels into the ground

because we're like, nope, I'm not going to be controlled. I'm an autonomous being. They can't tell me what to do, even if it's not conscious, even if they know that what the person is wanting them to change about themselves is something that they really need. The fact that it's coming from them and not coming from themselves will make people very resistant. It happens. I see it all the time.

When meeting somebody in the courting phase, what are some red flags that you wouldn't presume or maybe expect or perceive are red flags in the moment? In the courting stage, well, I think a big one that you have to be sort of aware of is someone just saying, I love you right away. But then again, I know someone in a great marriage and he's like, I told her I loved her like a weekend. And he's like, I'm a crazy red flag. So you just never know. But I think someone who, well, first of all, someone who is not responsive to you, they're not responding to your text. They're not actually investing in you and seeming very interested.

You kind of feel like, oh, I'm kind of feel like I'm an option right now or an afterthought. That's a red flag. And also just how they treat people. Always you have to pay attention. Yeah. And it feels like the more you refine your capacity to listen, you can see where certain behaviors are actually coming from. And one that comes to mind is like being nice versus being kind. Yeah.

Like being nice appears like it's a nice, it's a kind gesture. But in reality, it can actually be quite manipulative. Yes. Versus kindness is like genuine and from the heart. Yes. And I'm just curious what you think about that because, yeah, niceness can often be that behavioral compensation for very. various fears, you know? Yeah. So there's two ways I think of it. One is, I think that we have to be careful not to demonize niceness, like, you know, because especially if you've been with someone

who's a real son of a, you know, and like, so nice. Definitely better. Nice is a breath of fresh air. But if we're going to pathologize a little bit, there's an amazing book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. And the archetype of the nice guy is the pleaser who is not being nice because he's a good necessarily. He's being nice because he's so disconnected from himself because he's trying to be not like his mean dad. That's typically the pathology. And so what happens is that yet he'll do what you want. He never expresses his needs. And so he actually registers as very unsafe because we need to feel like we are dealing with another autonomous being. Like that kind of boundary actually makes women in particular feel safe. And also, you know, if the person who's constantly pleasing and never

actually saying what it is that he wants or whatever she wants, once you really piss them off, then there's a rage that comes from them that is unbelievable. And so kindness is coming from someone being a good person, like a good man who's just generous because that is, who he is. And that's part of his value system. But he's not afraid to say, no, and he's not afraid to say that doesn't work for me. And that feels good.

No women really wants a partner who she can actually manipulate. You know, like she may want that in the short term, but in the long term, then she loses respect and feels like, I can't trust this person. I was driving with a friend a while back and I think this is quite common with Canadians actually.

Canadians are very nice. Not to over pathologize and I think there is just a cultural component for sure. But he is a very genuinely kind spirit. Yeah. But I saw his tendency to always filter his truth and authenticity with just the cover of niceness. Which girls do too. A lot of women do too.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And it's just, it's just, we crave authenticity. And there is a barrier there between authenticity. And I love even more so the individuals who are maybe a bit more crass and, you know, straight to the point, you know, then, yeah, then the ones that need to kind of coat things because it almost robs you of the respect that you deserve and dynamic. and communication to be truthful.

Yeah, and it's also, it can be hard because you're thinking, is that really how you feel, or are you just telling me something that I want to hear? Right. And that, that creates a problem when you're starting to doubt that in someone, because it's trust. Yeah. Trust is a big thing in dynamics. It's the most important thing. Where I want to take it first is actually, how important and pivotal do you think the trust we have

ourselves and with life informs the trust we have with another partner? because we could be in a relationship where we feel very uncertain or not sure if there's going to be a longevity in the connection or if they might leave us or whatever. And I find if somebody has a deeper trust of life's intelligence with a capital I, that things will ultimately work out and that actually life is inherently uncertain. Yes. It breeds some spaciousness, which reduces the clinging, which often actually pushes away. Yes. So this is a very layered topic. It's an important one. So I think what you're describing is someone who maybe has, is very clings to certainty. And when this person sort of has a spiritual understanding and letting go of like everything is uncertain and and and I will be okay. I know how to navigate that. It's the trust in being able to navigate the uncertainty. There's also added to that is I get into a relationship and I just don't trust men or I don't trust women.

I think all men cheat or I think all women cheat. And then I'm in a relationship with someone and it's very hard. Like that's my issue. That's my issue is that I don't. I've been hurt so badly in the past. So how do we address that? Well, one school of thought is, well, you know, that's her problem. You know, or that's his problem.

and, you know, he's got to work it out. That's the highly independent individualistic way of thinking about it. But, you know, because most things are not binary and most things live in the gray area, it's like, okay, can she take responsibility for that? And also can her partner develop a sensitivity to the fact that she has had a lot of betrayal in the past and make it really, and reassure her and be really transparent with her and be sensitive around that. While at the same time,

she's also working on that in herself. Does that answer your question? Yeah. I mean, maybe not directly, but something that I wanted to add to the whole topic of trust. Do you think that there is a solid, like a significant minority of women

that have a subconscious anger towards men because of the betrayal in their past? Oh, I think there's a gender war right now that's happening that's unbelievable and it's happening all over social media. Well, that's because women do this and that's because men do that and it's it's it's terrible to see it's not good not good at all I mean I'm seeing gender wars all the time in comments not necessarily sometimes I see it a little bit

in my comments but I see it a lot of other people's comments because I look and I'm curious but there's a lot of like see that's because he did this and all men are that and all women are that and you know and I kind of chuckle because when I see people make a comment about that it's like you know I almost I feel compassionate towards them because they don't realize that that's a belief that's actually what is getting in the way of them having a healthy relationship. And so I see it all the time. So yes, I do think that there's a lot of that going on. And there are a lot of people who are carrying just that betrayal trauma of just being hurt in the past. And that's why I really like to help people reframe it. I mean, look, the way that's the way.

that my ex-husband broke up with me was wrong by anyone's standard and abandoning and a betrayal and just a terrible thing to do to another person. So we can, we understand that logically. But the story that I have about it now is so I can, I can say that, I don't feel any emotion behind it. I process it. I'm so over it. But I can say that and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, because it's important for me to that that's not good behavior, because otherwise then I let it happen again if I don't recognize it. But I don't live with this extreme distrust and fear that someone's going to do that to me again because I understand that there was so much more to that story, and I would not be sitting here today had that never happened. So it's also about investigating the stories that we have around the

pain that we've had in the past. developing deeper trust with life. Deeper trust with life, exactly. So I think that goes full circle to your question about trusting life and life is uncertain. It's like, okay, I don't want to go through that again, but I also understand the deeper meaning of it. And I sort of trust in sort of whatever mysterious life force that's out there that made it so that I'm sitting here today.

Would you articulate it that there are those blessings and disguises where sometimes losing the love we have and makes. space for deeper love that we deserve? Absolutely. I do believe that. I believe that we, nothing means anything other than the meaning we give it. And so I think that that's a great way to look at things. And I think that that's, that feels very true to me. Is that the way you choose to look at things? That is the way that I choose to look at things. And it's also my belief. It's become my belief. I do believe that, um, that greater things can happen. And sometimes we do lose something and it opens one door closed. I do believe and one door closes, another door opens.

I believe that to be a reality of life. It hits different when it comes from somebody who lives it, you know, and has gone through the hardships of life versus, again, something that intellectually sounds tantalizing. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I want to get your perspective on a little bit more of that gender stuff. You know, we both see online, but shows up, you know, I think of this kind of idea of we have relational karma, which is like from our parents and our childhood development. We have psychological wounds there within pertaining to both gender dynamics in particular. And then we also have like relational Dharma, which is the aspirational directions that we want to go and where we're shifting to. Focusing on the karma side of things first and the trauma that we project so unconsciously often.

I'm curious What as a man And then from a perspective of a woman What as a man can we do That you really feel as a woman brings a sense of safety and assurance And that you truly think that is Not addressed or brought is ready to stay in age Presence I think that what men

Need to do is just have more presence with her. I think that that's what we need is, look, a woman who's secure in herself doesn't need her man's attention 24-7, but when we are hanging out and we are together, and if we have something that we need to get off our chest, not necessarily about him, but just something that we're emoting, when he can just be fully present and make it known through his body language, and even through his words, that she can, that she can rely on him to just listen to her feelings, that's huge. And that is huge.

You know, women, in general, we have just a very complicated emotional body, emotional way of being. We just feel things, and I think that most of that is our hormonal system. It's just very different. And then the fluctuations of our hormonal system is different than a man. And so it's when we can feel like, oh, you are not being distracted or you can just be really present with me. That's huge. I could tell you, like, this has happened, happened in a while, but there have been times where I've been on dates where I'm talking to the guy. and I can tell he's distracted.

Now when I think back, I'm thinking, is he just in his head thinking about what his response is? Is he just like in his head? But I remember the feeling of just feeling like a dagger, like in my body. Like that is the worst feeling ever. And I'm just like, I'm done with you. You know, I'm not going on another date with you. And so I think that gender aside,

what we can all do, where we can all improve is not being so self-focused when we're communicating with someone and being more of the other self-focused. Like what is this person trying to say, how can I understand this person more and what does this person actually need for me in this moment? Yeah, it just seems like that advice across the board for all communications. Yeah, but I will say that, you know, what women really need to feel safe and to feel seen is, is like, you know, a man who's just like, you can unravel with me. Like, you can, you know, like, you don't have to, like, filter.

You don't have to be perfect. That's a keeper. Yeah. That's great. What do you think on the flip side? Women, I think, and you can verify this for me, I think that women who date men really underestimate how much he needs reassurance and to feel like he is enough, it's not just her.

And part of what's really going to make him feel enough is to feel like he is adding value to her life. And, you know, I think what men need to learn is that he's actually not responsible for our happiness, but what women need to learn is that, yes, that's true. And can you also be compassionate towards that heavy burden that he carries on his shoulders that he's making you happy.

For sure, yeah, I think, like, men, we want to be useful. Useful. Yeah, very useful. Yeah, very, very useful. Yeah. That's why you always want to fix when there's a problem. Right. But you're going to be way more useful when sometimes you can just say,

do you want me to try to fix this or do you just want me to listen? Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like it's usually the ladder, you know? Usually the ladder. And then afterwards, when she feels her, then maybe we can, she's more open to problem solving. Yeah, I think another thing, too, is, and I think, of course, everyone's different, but there's definitely a level of autonomy and space that also men sometimes crave that often

from the female perspective seems like. Threatening. Yeah. Yeah. Freedom and all that. Right. Yeah. Well, that's why I try to, you know, help women, especially women who are looking for a relationship

or just obsessing over the lack of love in their life, I think that women would actually do very well to value their freedom a little bit more. Yeah. Balance it out a little bit. Mm-hmm. And I think that men, one of their things that they need to work on is that, you know,

having great love in your life is actually just going to make everything better, you know? Yeah. Including your career. Yeah. What's the big truth that you feel like we haven't touched on today? That would be important. Well, the last one, you have to make peace with your parents.

That was the biggest one, and I think really intense. And I wrote it because my greatest work has been trying to heal my relationship with my father, who passed when I was writing this chapter, actually. And it's been my greatest, like, life's journey is navigating my very, my very challenging relationship with my father and kind of growing out of that. And so I felt I felt uniquely qualified to write this chapter. So it wasn't just based on my professional experience, but something that I had to go through myself.

And I definitely say, you know, if you've been horribly molested or abused in some way, this sort of doesn't apply. You know, it's not about making peace. And also, you can have a great relationship with your parents. Sometimes making peace with your parents is freeing yourself from the expectation that you have to take a certain path in life because that is what they wanted and actually allowing yourself to beat to your own drum and to do and take the path that you know that you were meant to take even if it could potentially disappoint your parents. That's making peace with your parents. making peace with your parents is also, it's making peace with the story that you have with this parent that is controlling your life. And so it's recognizing the control that it might be having on

your life and then re-examining and re-investigating the story. It is learning how to relate to your parent as an adult versus through the lens of your younger self. And so it's, it's all of that. And it's very important because our adult romantic relationships will reflect our unfinished business with their parents. And it doesn't have to be perfect, but it's a very important part of, it's a very important truth that will change your life about love. Was there a moment when you had a shift of just viewing your parents as they're my mom and dad versus they're actually a human being person that have their own path? I think, I don't remember the exact moment.

but I think one of the most profound experiences, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this, of being a human being and growing up, is the grief that comes with recognizing that your parent is just another person and that they're not just your parent. There's great freedom in that, but there's also a grieving process because you're grieving your childhood, you're grieving maybe the childhood that you never had, you're grieving that dynamic of, you know, perfect mom or dad coming in and just sort of like making you safe. So there's a lot of grieving in that. But I do believe that our greatest spiritual task in life is to somehow work or fix or heal our relationship with our parents. And it's very, can be very, very difficult. And sometimes, like I said, it's just for some people that healing is

now I know that what, if it was a very extreme situation, now I know that what they did to me was not because I'm not good. It's because of them. And that's, that's making peace. It's a trip to realize it because we've been so like under the assumption that they're just our parents. And I remember having this conversation with Matt Kahn on the podcast and he talked about his experience of really kind of collapsing the blame and shame put towards his parents and how he got to the place energetically where he saw his father as his brother and his mother as his sister. Wow.

And how we're all having our own individual, human, spiritual experience amongst a collective. And it just breeds so much more compassion and also discharges so much of the tension we have and blame and just really. realize that as a saying goes, hurt people, hurt people. And there is just pain inducing more pain in unconscious ways. And it invites us to be able to be the person in our bloodline that breaks that chain. Yeah. And you know what?

Yes. And just we really truly do what we can with the tools, with the emotional tools that we have. We just do. And that's how you also move on from a breakup and a hard breakup where you feel hurt. You just, you don't have to necessarily. forgive, you just have to accept and let go, and then maybe forgiveness will find you. Do you feel like you've made your own way through forgiveness, through those difficult things in your life? Do you feel like you're, do you still have things to let go of or forgive on that side

of things? Sure, I'm sure there's just a little bit of residual, for sure, but I do feel like I'm much closer to that forgiveness. And by that, what I mean is, You know, forgiveness is a funny thing. For me, I think of it more as I'm forgetting. And I know there's this saying, you know, you can forgive but never forget. For me, it's almost the reverse. It's like when I forget, when the story does not feel, when the story is not in my mind all the time, when it doesn't have a grip on me, then I kind of start to forgive because I just don't care as much.

I don't care so much about the story. I don't care so much about it. And so I let go. And so that's more my process. What's the biggest lesson for you personally if you're open to sharing as it relates to love right now in life for you? The biggest lesson, there's so many. That, you know, I think one of the biggest lessons that I ever learned about love is that ultimately you need someone in your corner. That's the most important thing.

Like I have, you know, friends and family members who are in marriages where I'm like, ugh. They're very content, so I'm okay because they're content. But when I think about, I'm like, I would never want to be in that marriage, or I would never want that person. They're so annoying. But what I've seen is that they are there for each other. Like when the crap hits the fan, like they are there for each other. And I realize that that's really what's most important.

That life can be long, it can be hard, and you really, to have a, partner who's there for you when things get hard and you're there for each other, that that's really the most important thing. And I never really understood that, you know, years ago. I didn't realize that being, I wanted that, I craved that, but I didn't understand it as that being like really the most important thing and that you really shouldn't commit your heart or your life or your time or your energy to someone who, with whom you don't feel that. with. Choosing a life partner is perhaps the most important decision we will have for the rest of our life, you know, who we're going to spend the most time with, who will be witnessed to our life,

who we decide we want to give and support throughout our life. And challenge and is going to be inevitable. And I remember, you know, talking with Mark Manson, he was like, it depends just what shit sandwich do you want to eat, you know? There's a point. There's a point. There's going to be challenge either way and of course there's going to be beauty and love and play and of course the other either way as well it's just what fundamental position do you want to orient orient yourself towards the life exactly and that's the same thing it's also um what problems can you live with and what problems can you not live with because everyone comes to the table with problems so just decide what are the ones you can live with and know the ones that you can't what does it mean to know thyself for you what does it mean to

know thyself. Well, I think when you know thyself, you can actually be thyself. It's very hard to be thyself if you don't know thyself. I think to know thyself is to know your values, to know the beliefs that you have that are sort of dictating your life, and to understand how you see the world, because how you see the world is how you operate in the world. And you can change that. You really can change that. But you can't know yourself until you understand the filter through which you are seeing the world. As you have been being thyself, that's such a funny sentence to say.

Last note, as we start to wrap up here, what is your hope in your wish with your book, with your work that you truly wish to like leave on this planet? most. I really hope for people to be kinder to themselves and to recognize that, and just to be able to have healthier relationships. I mean, that's really, I've had healthy relationships and I've had ones that were not. And I, so I understand the power in both. And I understand that being in an unhealthy dynamic, truly unhealthy, will take years off your life. It literally physically, makes you unwell. And then when you are in stable relationships, even if they're friendships, whatever they are, they are the things that give us courage. And so I really, that's what I want to leave behind is people just being able to cultivate that within themselves and others.

Well said. It's been such a pleasure to connect with you. Oh, me too. And have you on the podcast. And yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. And we'll leave links for where people can get connected with your work and your book and everything down below. And yeah, that's all. Thank you so much for having. It was a great conversation. Lots of fun. I loved it.

Yeah, me too. Great. More convos in the future. Everybody, thanks so much for tuning into this episode of The Know They Self Podcast. Until next week, be well.