Know Thyself - E168 - Alua Arthur: The Conversation About Death That Will Change How You Live

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

Death doula, attorney, and spiritual guide Alua Arthur joins us to explore how embracing mortality awakens us to life’s deepest meaning. Through her book Briefly Perfectly Human and her work helping people die with peace and purpose, Alua invites us to face what we fear most — not to prepare for dying, but to learn how to live fully. We explore the taboos around death, the regrets people hold at the end of life, and the powerful clarity that comes from asking what remains undone. 20% off Pique Life Tea:https://www.piquelife.com/knowthyselfAndrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list___________00:00 Intro04:20 What Is a Death Doula?08:10 How Facing Death Changes How We Live12:45 Why We Fear Death17:15 Imagining Your Own Death21:40 The Most Common Regrets of the Dying26:05 What Remains Undone in Your Life?28:18 Ad: Pique Life30:10 Facing Mortality as a Spiritual Practice34:50 The Art of Dying Well39:25 The Beauty of Grief and Letting Go43:10 How to Be Present With the Dying47:30 Conversations About Death With Loved Ones51:00 How Alua Found Her Calling55:40 What Dying People Teach About Living Fully1:00:15 Grief, Identity, and Rebirth1:05:30 How to Support Someone Who’s Grieving1:10:45 The Mystery of What Happens After Death1:15:00 The “Glitter Wave” Theory of Consciousness1:20:20 Reimagining Rituals Around Death1:25:40 Living Authentically Before It’s Too Late1:30:00 Conclusion___________Episode Resources: https://www.instagram.com/alualoveslife/https://www.instagram.com/going_with_grace/https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSP6FVYR/https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcasthttps://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road, that's the Volkswagen Tiguan. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood accents. Under the hood, the available 201 turbocharged horsepower engine gives it a fun to drive edge. The refined Tigwan, you deserve more style. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUVW, German engineered for all. This episode is brought to you by FedEx.

These days, the power move isn't having a big metallic credit card to drop on the check at a corporate launch. The real power move is leveling up your business with FedEx intelligence and accessing one of the biggest data networks powered by one of the biggest delivery networks. Level up your business with FedEx, the new power move. And I'm in the space of somebody else dying. I'm doing my best not to put my fears about dying on them so I can just be present for their experience. Death brings up a lot of feelings in us, but I just think societally we don't make space for the conversation.

A couple of really key things. I imagine myself on my deathbed. I imagine somebody who's elderly, somebody who has had these grand adventures, and when I have her in mind, then it allows me to direct my actions today. Let's meet the person on our deathbed that we actually want to be. The question is, what must I do?

Most of the regret is about what we did or didn't do. I think all of our fears are fear of death, but once we start looking deeper into it, we can learn much about who we are and how we live. I love grief. Sounds a little strange, but I really, I love grief. You're clearly doing what you love. Yeah, they're not going to forget around me. You're going to die. Yeah.

What do you think happens after we die? I have this working theory. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know Thyself podcast. Our guest today is a death dula, an attorney, a spiritual guide who helps people get intimate with living life fully by getting intimate with their death and their mortality. Through her book, briefly, perfectly human, and her work, she helps people die well with clarity, with peace, with purpose. And in this conversation, we're, yes, going to talk about death, but how one might be able to live fully so that whenever death inevitably comes knocking on our doorstep, we can say that we've lived. a life well-lived. Aulu Arthur, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. It's such a joy to have you. I would love to just start laying some foundation by asking what is a death dula because not everybody understands what that is. Sure. A death dula is a non-medical and holistic support person for the dying person

and their entire circle of support through the process. That means we're helping handle the emotional, the spiritual, the practical, sometimes illegal support that the dying person may need. But when I say a dying person, I mean anybody who has some awareness of their mortality. So that means when people are healthy and they've begun to think through the end of their lives

or come into acceptance of their mortality, we can help them prepare for their dying too. How much of the people you work with is like near end of life versus healthy, generally just, you know, death conscious? I'd say about half and half. A lot of the people are, you know, still vital and just want to do their end-of-life planning. And so we'll sit and have end-of-life planning conversations or do death meditations or work through their fears of death or just do courses or something that gets them like in the idea of their mortality consistently, find ways to inject some of it into their daily lives.

And then the other half is the people that know what they're going to be dying of and their circle of support that need the help. It makes sense that when somebody is confronted with imminent potential death that they start thinking about it more, what do you see is the most common trigger for people that are generally healthy? What are the themes and consistent things you think are the trigger for them to start questioning and exploring that more? It's a couple of things. It's either the death of somebody close to them, like a parent or a sibling or a friend, somebody in their friend group, or a serious diagnosis themselves. They just got diagnosed with something.

It may not be a terminal in any real way, but all of a sudden they're like, oh, shit, one day it's going to be me. Or something happens with their children or something happens with the people that are next up on the totem pole after them. And so they want to prepare to save them the heartache or the headache. I'm curious at this stage we're like, how often are you thinking of death? All the time. Yeah?

Every day. Multiple times a day. How does it come up for you, just randomly throughout your day? All the time throughout my day. silly things sometimes and sometimes a little bit more like real or... What's the silly ones? I'll be doing something in my kitchen. Like earlier today, I was trying to cut an avocado and the knife slipped in a way and it missed my finger.

But then I was like, well, what if it just flipped up and stabbed me in the back and I bled out on the ground? Even though my... Those intrusion about. They are. They are. And in some ways, they point toward my death anxiety, you know? But in other ways, I keep bringing myself back to, okay, if this were it, then what? You know, if this were actually, am I pleased?

And if not, then I have an opportunity to change it. But if that would have happened today and I bled out all over the floor, I would, you know, be a little embarrassed about the way I went out because it would have been a really ridiculous accident. Death by avocado. Too blunt of a knife. But I also, I think, would be like, all right, we did the best that we could with the time that we had. and this is what we did with it. What about some more deep things that get you really thinking more exasentially about it?

Sometimes when I'm with my partner, I got married recently. Congrats. And I often think about the life that we've had together so far. And so much of our life is made up in the mundane. Like the big moments are cool, but it's making breakfast and doing dishes and trying to figure out what we're going to eat for dinner, you know. and how much of my time with him I, like, really love. And one day that will come to an end, either through his death or through mine.

And when I'm really with that, it brings up, like, some sadness and some, like, ouch, I don't want this to end one day. And so let me be really present with what we have right now. For you to come to this point and make it such a big part of your life's journey, supporting people with living and dying well, how does someone become a death do What for you and your story was the predominant trigger to get you in this line of work? Yeah. So you mentioned that I'm a lawyer by training.

I worked for 10 years at legal aid, almost 10 years, working in domestic violence and government benefits and working with low-income people. And the work was like really, it was useful work. Like I was doing it in a way that I think other people would find really noble. And yet something in me was not as into it as I would have. have liked to be. I struggled, I think, with the work of an attorney overall. It just it wasn't a fit. But I did my best. And then I felt crushed by the work. So I took a leave of absence as a result of a clinical depression. And during that leave of absence, I went to Cuba where I met a fellow traveler on the bus who had uterine cancer. And we talked a lot about

her life. And then I started asking her questions about her death and her disease. And she answered them. And she was like really willing to go there with me and all these like, like these deep questions that we don't normally ask of strangers, let alone the people in our lives that we love that may have illness. But she answered and she shared with me the things that she feared and the things that she wanted still out of her life. And it, you know, crack the door open a little bit about, first of all, the connection that can be made when two humans are talking about something

with some real depth and some weight to it. But even greater on how our mortality allows us, us to look at how we are living. I asked her what would be undone in her life if her disease killed her. And she answered honestly. And I asked myself the same question quietly, and I didn't like the answer for myself.

In sharp contrast to what I was just sharing with you about death by avocado, that would be like, okay, we did it. At the time, I wasn't pleased at all. And it saddened me, but it also created space and like a little motivation to do something else about it. But during that bus ride, I started thinking about the potential for being with people as they were thinking about death. And it seemed pretty natural and easy.

And I loved it because we were just getting up in her life. And she was just down to share everything with me. When I came back from there, my brother-in-law became ill, my older sister's husband, his name as Peter St. John. And I got to be with him in the last two months of his life. and really see how the system doesn't really hold or honor people that are dying very well and that we need much more comprehensive support around death and dying. We need more support for the people that are supporting other people through it than we have. And I couldn't find anybody who I wanted to do the job that I needed.

And so I decided to become it for other people. What specifically angered you or made you indignant about the system? Everything. I mean, I think at the root of all of it was just my grief that my brother-in-law was dying. Yeah. Okay, that in it alone just suck. But on top of that was what felt like a lack of anybody speaking very clearly to the issue. People not saying directly he's dying or this is not going to work or we need to prepare ourselves or something.

Nobody said anything like that. And so it kind of felt like we were left to... triangulated from the circumstances, you know. There was also no space to process with him or individually or with anybody. There wasn't anybody to talk about the practical, like what we need to do practically to prepare for his death. But I think overall was just like the helplessness that we felt. I think that's probably present in how we are approaching death anyway, like we all kind of

feel helpless in its face. and yet for the people that we trust with our care, they also seemed really helpless. And so it was like, well, shit, now what? Like, where are the people that are supposed to support us through this or to have the real conversations with us or care that we're hurting? It wasn't anybody. I wish.

It's interesting because so much of the gaps we see in the world, and the anger, there's like a righteousness to, I think, these things that ignite us and, put a light and fire under our own ass to go and be the change that you wish there was there and the systems. And death is a area of life that not many of us love to look at, certainly not frequently, certainly not daily. Yet it is an inevitability.

And I'm curious why you think there's such a taboo around the conversation of death. It feels like such a taboo. And people say that all the time. I don't disagree. It's just I notice that when I share about the work I do, people almost always want to share with me about somebody in their life that died and wished that I was there, or they want to share their ideas about the afterlife,

they want to talk about spirituality. Or sometimes, I mean, they do pretend I don't exist anymore. Like, they just put a force field around me so that, like, death doesn't touch them. But for the most part, they're, like, down to talk about it. You know, they want to talk about it. They're, like, really curious. So I think people do want to talk about it. but I just think societally we don't make space for the conversation.

Death brings up a lot of feelings in us. It brings up a lot of helplessness and powerlessness. I think in the society that we live in, it's hard to behave as though I am fragile in some way. You know, we're meant to behave as though we got everything figured out all the time and to admit one day I'll die, suggest my mortality, my humanness, and that makes people uncomfortable.

And I think that just the sadness around it, the grief around it, the idea that I am going to leave this one place I know for a big unknown makes people uncomfortable to not be able to eat my beloved plantain anymore or to feel the sun on my skin or to be with my man until the very like all the rest of the time in the world. It's sad. It feels sad. I love life. You know, why would I want to die? What context do you feel like it brings our life? Like from the perspective of the moment of our death, how does that change how we live?

How it is reflecting on that change how you've lived? When we consider our deathbed self, it creates a chance for us to work to that place. I imagine myself on my deathbed. First of all, I imagine somebody who's elderly. Now, obviously this may not come to pass, right? But I imagine somebody who's elderly, somebody who has had these grand adventures,

somebody who has been really present for life, somebody who's allowed herself to be seen and to be helped, somebody who has helped and has seen people, somebody who has gotten the most out of this life and not in the go-go-go-go-do-do way, but rather in like being here for life itself, like being up in the super life. Like I allowed myself to grieve and to laugh,

ridiculously and to really be who I am while I'm here. And that to me is the person that I want to meet. I want to meet her on my deathbed. I don't want to meet somebody who has regrets about how she lived or wishes she would have made different choices or wishes she would have said that one thing that one day, which some of us do to ourselves right now anyway. Like let's meet the person on our deathbed that we actually want to be. And when I have her in mind, then it allows me to direct my actions today. Is that clear? Yeah.

Okay. I think we all have those things where there's these things inside of us, we just feel that need to get out of us. And you spoke to this feeling of like there's things undone left in my life, you know, upon death. And I think that can be a frightening thought for many of us because the moment that you feel like there was this potential that was not actualized, that you had the capability to do to bring into this world, to share with others.

And you didn't. You know, that I think really motivated. motivates us to get our act together, so to speak, and to really use our time and energy wisely in a way that is going to be conducive to whenever it comes, whether it is in the quintessential, beautiful Hollywood movie of a, you know, a hundred-year-old life and, you know, we take our last breath with all of our loved ones around us in our dream scenario, or a blunt knife because you're cutting an avocado and it slips or something. Who knows how it's going to happen or when it's going to happen, right? We can meet it fully and it doesn't feel like a

robbery, you know, but more of a natural returning. And I'm curious, as somebody who works so intimately with people as they're about to leave this life, what are some of the common regrets that you do see? Well, they're mostly around not being authentic to who they were, either in the way that they spent their time, like they spent more time doing the things that they didn't necessarily want to do than spending time doing the things that they really did want to do. or not being true to themselves, like not showing up authentically for life, not showing up authentically in the body or how they're expressed or how they spoke

or where they lived or any of those things. I rarely see people that wish that they'd spent more time working or on their career, you know, but often it's more time for creative pursuits or their relationships or the people that really matter to them or something of the sort, like the things that mattered. And that extends not only from relationships and children and parents and partners, but also down to like hobbies and the experiences of the senses that people enjoyed that they didn't give enough time to while they were present.

And so most of the regret is about what we did in the limited amount of time that we had. Yeah, right, or didn't do. I think questions really guide our life in so many different ways. The questions we ask ourselves, the questions we ask of life, the question that I've seen you raise many times is what must I do so that I can live presently and die gracefully? And you mentioned some of those things now, but I just want to hone in on this a bit more because death gives us this context of,

okay, what does my life mean? and what must I do so that I can feel a sense of wholeness and completeness and fulfillment. I would just love to hear your perspective if you want to share any more of your own personal of those things that you must do, you feel you must do, and that you think outside of the authenticity, which, of course, like, you could say covers a whole lot of it all. Yeah. That is supportive for people to get clarity on, right? Yeah, yeah.

The must do, and first of all, you got that down. I don't know how you did that, but you got it down. The question is absolutely correct. It's a must, right? What must I do? What must I do? And the answer varies for everybody. And yet sometimes the things that we think feel like must actually aren't there,

they'd be really nice to or it'd be gratify. But it's what are the things that by the time I reach there, I must have done. For me, a big one was getting my book done. Like for a while, it just felt like, God, you really got to finish this because also I didn't want anybody to see it and it's not ready for him because there was some stuff in there that nobody need to see.

You know what I mean? It needed to go. So the book was a must do. It was a must do. A few years ago, I recognized that a must was also to look into the eyes of my beloved and commit to being his wife.

That was a big must. And we did it. Yay. Some of my other, I don't have too many must now. It feels like I'm not feeling complete by any means, but I feel like I've done the things. I've done the things. I would love to watch my niece and nephew grow old and to see who they become. They're currently

20 and 16, but I'd love to see them as adults and, like, really thriving. The must for people look like a lot of different things, but a lot of times they are about their accomplishments. But as I was saying, a lot of them are also about their relationships. They're about how they spend their time or what they're doing with their time. Rarely is it about like, you know, going to see the Mona Lisa or getting a massage from like eight hot Jamaicans at the same time. Mostly it's around spending more time. Do you have any must? I

Hmm Must is an interesting word Yeah There are definitely things in my Awareness that I feel like Just have a sense A bigger sense of urgency You know

That I really would love to get out there And I think our work largely is like I think Khalil Gibran is like Our soul made visible Is through our work you know And this podcast is a big fulfillment of that for me but I also have a lot of new things that I'm exploring with my writing and for sure a book and just the scale of bringing together community and ideas that I'm really excited for that I feel is still in the works.

So, yeah, I think there's quite a few things. There's a level of like providership and like setting up my family, my mom and sister, like, really super well, you know, that I definitely want to get to a bigger degree. and yeah, I'm curious because obviously when you're talking with people, there's the whole external planning game of like dying well and arranging things and we can get into that. But this whole internal game, which really becomes like spiritual work and you're this mirror and reflector and guide for people to get clarity on what means most to them. And that, of course, kind of comes back down to values.

And so do you have any guiding questions for people to get clear on what they're musts are in a sense? Well, the biggest question I lead with is what remains undone in your life. The challenge becomes when somebody is really ill or, you know, rapidly approaching the end of their life, and there's not much time left or life force energy left for the things that felt like a must. So redefining what must looks like when there's a short amount of time left or there's not much energy left. So looking first at what remains undone. Also, I ask a lot of questions about relationships to see if there's any places that still need healing, to consider places where we may still need to say thank you or I love you or please forgive me or I'm sorry or any of those places that still require a little bit more tenderness and conscious attention to smooth out before we die. I had a client not that long ago that, like,

who ended up being maybe about three weeks before she died. She told me that she'd always wanted to work on this workshop. And I said, oh, well, it's a lot of work right now. But let's see what we can do. So I busted out my laptop and I started typing as she started sharing with me her ideas. And what it really came down to is that she'd wanted an opportunity for people to come together to connect vulnerably.

And by the time we were done, like, working through this workshop idea she had, she realized it could be at her funeral, you know? And so it was a way to still create this thing that she wanted to, and she had like a great funeral plan

in this idea of a workshop. And it didn't quite happen that way, but it was a nice way to, like, you know, get into the juice about what was still important to her. When we use this phrasing of like what's left undone, what do you think we're really looking for? I think we're looking for what, like, calls most true to us about our lives, about life itself. We all have a different phrasing conception of what it is that we're doing here.

And I think for some, this question is more about their unique expression of humanhood, like what does it come here to do? or to express while it's here. And I use the term do not in the capitalistic, you know, productivity way, but rather in like the highest expression of myself present here. And so I think for most people, that's what we're really getting to,

was like the life force, that thing, that spark, that ultimately came through and made me human in this particular body at this particular time, in these particular relationships, is it complete? yeah, that's what we're trying to get to.

What is it specifically about death doula-ing that, like, lights you up the most and just, like, captivates you so much? No, my love. I think it's because I'm just really nosy at the root. I mean, in Dula work, like, I get to ask these questions, big questions about people's lives and the answer. It makes you fall in love with them all the time. Like, I get to be with humans, like, in the soup, you know? It's such, like, a really rich time. So maybe I'm not just nosy.

I'm also just deeply curious about humans. I'm deeply curious about the human experience. It lights me up when humans bear themselves when we can have more than just, like, a passing conversation with one of the eight billion that are here, you know, where it allows me to be, like, so much more in awe of this really strange, life thing that we're all doing together.

Like, what the, what? And when we can pause and just be with it, like I can be with somebody else and theirs, it feeds me plenty, plenty. I love that. I love also being somebody that other people can rely upon when things are tough. When they are in the midst of emotional chaos,

I can stay calm and grounded and easy and provide some tools and resources that may be of some support. I really love that. that. I love the tenderness. I love grief. Sounds a little strange, but I really, I love grief. I love it when we get broken open and we have a chance to reevaluate everything about who we are and how we move through the world and rebuild from that place, what feels true for us at the time. So, yeah, those are the things that think like me emo stuff about this.

this work. And I also just get to be myself. You know, I get to ask weird questions and people are down. I don't have to like pretend at all. I could just be weird. It's right. It's so funny because death is like the most sobering thought and reality of life when we contemplate it and sit with it. And sobering in the sense where like it brings us immediacy and presence, right? It's very real. And it's easy to get lost in thoughts. And it's easy to get lost in thoughts. philosophies about life and our own prejudices and beliefs and ideologies, but like death is a thing and we all are going to face it, right? And so I could just imagine how it's become a vessel for you to have those deep and intimate, meaningful conversations because people are in a position

where they're really needing that in their life. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And also I think that when people people also really, really need that when they are sitting on the precipice of this great mystery with somebody else who can maybe say now that does sound really tough or scary or confusing or any of those things, you know, where they don't

have to hide those parts of themselves. So I also love the mystery and I think I also love being close to people that are about to find some type of answer. Yeah. Maybe. There's an interesting terror management theory, I believe, where like how much of our motivations and desires in life are really undergirdled by this fear of death, do you give weight to that?

Do you, what do you think about that? 100%. I think all of our fears are fear of death. I think most of our motivation, I think almost all of our motivations is a direct relationship to our dying. You know, so often people talk about wanting to get over their fear of death or they say, like, help me get over it. And I wonder why, like, if it is something that is, you know, getting in the way of how we're living. It's really impacting how we're showing up for life.

And I think it's something that perhaps we should take a closer look at. But if your death is kind of hardwired into us in some way, you know, it's a thing that tells me to drink water when I'm thirsty. And the thing that forces me to rest and the thing that has me stop walking when I get to the edge of a cliff, like it's a thing that literally keeps me alive. However, when like I was saying, when it starts to impede and life, then I think it should be closer examined. But any place that my fear lies is a treasure for me. Like when I spend time with my fear, then I start to unlock parts of my life that I hadn't previously considered in that way.

And fear of death is one huge treasure that once we start looking deeper into it, we can learn much about who we are and how we live. Hey, fam. Sometimes I get asked what kind of tea. and I are drinking on the show or what I like in general and so just want to give you a quick share not all tea is created equally many tea companies are not organic leak microplastics into your tea or just low quality source ingredients one tea brand that I've been drinking almost every day from is peak life they have this puer tea which is not like normal tea puer is fermented which means it's

loaded with living probiotics and prebiotics that support your gut health it's like a reset button for your microbiome that supports with digestion, energy, metabolism, and your skin. Peake's puerre green and black tea is wild harvested from 250-year-old tea trees. It's triple toxin screen. So there's no junk, no pesticides, no weird additives. It dissolves instantly in hot or cold water with no tea bags or seeping required. And because you're an awesome human and you listen to know thyself, Peek is hooking you up with 20% off for life.

That's 20% off for life with a free rechargeable frother. If you grab their Pueaer bundle, it is an exclusive offer just for our listeners, and they back it up with a 90-day money-back guarantee. So you can try it risk-free. Just go to peaklife.com slash know-liself to grab yours now. Peeklife.com slash no-liself. I hope you enjoy. I'll show you a picture. I'm leaving for a trip soon, and I have, like, 40 of their different supplements and products that I take and I put in my beverages, and it's just great.

So I hope you enjoy. again in my own experience death is like this reflection that allows me to feel into what's most essential in my life and i'm i'm curious when working with so many people and i'm sure many people come to you when faced with the uncertainty of this transition and what's going to come after some maybe are searching for answers and want them from you how much of do you how much of it do you see just to be with people amidst their uncertainty is like your kind of role versus providing them kind of context or answers.

Oh, I don't have any answers. No, none whatsoever at all. No, I'm just in the soup too. You know? Like I'm still here talking out this mouth, looking you in the eyeball. I don't know either. But I think that something that allows me to be in it with other people

is first of all, the acknowledgement of, I don't know at all. And next, that I don't know, I think, allows people to not know either and it be okay. You know? Yeah, it's, the answers I can offer are maybe where to find a hospital gown that closes in the front rather than the back, you know? Or how to dispose the medicines after somebody dies. There are answers I can provide for the practical, tangible things that come along with being close to the time of dying. like how to pick a health care agent for your health directive.

I can support you with that. But what happens after we die, what I can do is mirror back what I'm hearing in the things that you're bringing up to help you get a little bit closer to your belief system, to start to nail down the things that really matter to you, to help you think through your values. But I don't have any answers at all.

I'm so, I mean, I'm not trying to figure it out myself. I'm just down for like, I don't know, we'll find out together. I'll see. What have you learned about how it confronts people's beliefs and the solidity of them upon death? Whether it's religious beliefs or just general beliefs about life, when confronted with death, how have you seen that, those things be shaken up?

Well, I think that as people get closer to the end of their lives, they're perhaps a little bit more willing to bet that their perception of life or everything that they believed is an utter gamble. They're just down to be like, ooh, I don't know. I've seen the most religious amongst us question and wonder if the things that they committed their lives to are actually true because they're soon about to find out. I've also seen some deeply religious folks

that just are down to the very, very end for the thing that they believed in that may give them some ease in their dying. But I think for many, as we get closer and closer, we know the things that we held so strong, perhaps feel a little porous and amorphous. And I think that probably is very helpful and ultimately letting it all go

is that you kind of have to be willing to loosen and to surrender. You know, you're loosening and surrendering about it all. Like all the things start feeling a little bushy-gushy. You know, even the ways that we identify at our core, those things also have to get a little soft. How many people do you think you've been with

the moment they've died? the moment, not that many. I don't find that to be the, like, the core part of my job. Yeah, I wasn't. Yeah, yeah. Well, so many of, like, so much of the, my job is to support people as they, like, are starting to think here. Yeah. And so I want to empower people in their innate capacity to die.

And that includes the people around. And sometimes when I'm there, people just turn to me about how to do it, but they know how to do it. You know, we all know how to do it. You know how to do it. I know how to do it. We'll just get there and then we'll do it. And it is nice when somebody is around to support when it's time. But most of the time I'm trying to create enough space so that they feel supported at the time. But go away. So dozens at the time that they've died. Yeah. I mean, that's still a lot. I mean, because it is your work. But I guess most people have probably been in either none or one or maybe two. Yeah, sure. But on the contrary, I've talked to thousands and thousands about their relationship.

Of course. With mortality. Yeah, yeah, no. And I'm interested in both. The reason I ask the former is just because I'm curious, what have you really learned about the moment when you see somebody transition, both what it's like to die and then also has it raised any spiritual questions or, you know, thoughts of like, yeah, I'm just curious when you see somebody leave their body,

do you have the sense that there's something that goes on after? Or do you see it more of like a turning off of like? turning off of lights. No, it feels more like a filling out. First, there's the profound and utter stillness. You know, it dims when somebody is dying as a result of disease anyway. You can feel it dimming and dimming and dimming

and as we're either counting breaths or paying attention to when the chest is rising and falling when fat stills and when all the time. there's no more of a heartbeat. And while we can't see all the microscopic things that are happening in the cells, it feels like a stillness has descended. And as that stillness descended,

it almost also feels like injecting water into like a cotton ball or something. So that also expands simultaneously. And the room feels full with stillness in a way. So it feels less like something is gone and more like something has expanded. I'm curious in like the couple days leading up to someone's death, what do you notice change if they're coherent enough to see where they're at psychologically

and then also physiologically? There isn't a lot of energy left for a lot of communication in the days leading up to death generally. because when people are dying as a result of disease, there's like the slowly, gradually pulling away where there's just moments of consciousness at a time, but the rest of the time they are sleeping or unconscious. And when they wake, probably just like checking in to see what's going on, but not there isn't much energy left.

There's just like a general, you know, people pull away. They get more and more distant. And pupils have a harder time focusing. Speech is significantly slowed, significantly less time for consciousness. Heart rate slows. Blood pressure. It has a hard time regulating. Actually, urine output becomes darker.

The skin starts to change. Extremities get colder. They get like purplish and fair skin people and maybe like grayish and darker skin people. the body you can tell something is that thing is starting to pull back somehow before it gets big again and takes up all the space anyway it's a the process of dying is well it's all just such a mystery it's also really beautiful I think in the In the way that, you know, we honor and revere the utter mystery and miracle that is birth,

I think death has a lot of those qualities too, where even though science can pinpoint some things, you know, science can pinpoint conception when these two meet and they can say, hey, death has occurred because these things happen. All the happenings around it are entirely mysterious. And that to me is like it's so awe-inspiring that it can be beautiful too. Is there somebody that comes to mind that you've been present for when they've died that you feel like they've been most aware or conscious while they left? I can think of one person that was conscious almost up until the end. She had long periods of sleeping. but getting closer to the end

yeah she wasn't asleep all the time she was awake for a portion of it and said she wanted to live her death and she said yeah yeah I like that because I also too I feel like it's a once in a lifetime opportunity I don't want to miss

if possible well you're going to be there for it yeah for one way or another one way or the other So many tangents here. So many things. I'm excited to keep exploring. You mentioned grief earlier

and how you love it in this way. I'm curious how grief has been a unique teacher for you and in your own both navigating a grief grief personally, like through Peter or supporting countless individuals as they navigate the grief of loved ones. What do you think grief has the unique capacity to reveal to us as a teacher? Grief is such a motherfucker. But as I was saying earlier, one that I think just really allows us to like crack open and

it's painful and it's difficult. And sometimes in the depths of it you think there will never be anything else. you know, how can I ever carry on in the face of what has happened in my life? How do I ever reconcile this thing? But we do. We do. We are resilient. We find ways.

We keep finding a way to, like, carry on with our lives. And somehow the thing that felt so big and like we would never and ever overcome it is integrated into how we live every single day. One of the things that I love about grief is that it does, it does. cracks us. It allows us to kind of throw all the other things away if we want and rebuild from it if we'd like. I'm kind of smiling as I'm saying this because I'm thinking about all the opportunities that we have to do that while we're living. And there aren't that many when we get to say, you know what, not that anymore. We're this today. And grief is one of the places where we can. You know, I am in the midst of some grief now have been for a while. And I've cut a bunch off my hair.

I cut like two feet off my hair. I haven't painted my nails in like 10 months or so. But they used to be did all the time, and now they're just not. I think grief allows us to shift our belief system and our orientation toward the world because loss does that. And as we try to find ways to reconcile the loss, we create a belief system that adheres to who we are in anew. Yeah, and it's to me a great opportunity. I can't remember your question. I lost it.

Just grief as a teacher. I love. I love grief. Grief will teach you who you are. Teach you what you're made of. It'll teach you what you value through loss. Once the thing is gone, then it's like, oh, shit, that did matter somehow. And sometimes the thing that mattered is not like the love of the person or of the thing,

but rather what was created as a result of that. I get frustrated sometimes when people say that grief is a price that we pay for love. because first of all, why does love has to cost anything? The shit is free and abundant, okay? And next, you know, grief isn't always only happening as a result of love. Like, sometimes we grieve things that we didn't love also.

People have to grieve difficult relationships. They grieve abusive parents. They grieve things that had value in some way, but that value isn't always a positive value. Yeah. So I would love it if we would just think of grief a lot more expansively other than just love with no place to go. Because it's also, no, it's also anger.

It's also you did this to me. It's also trauma with so many things. What do you think is the most effective way to be with somebody in their grief and be with your own? Outside of letting it run its natural course of time, like what have you seen really is the most supportive? To support other people through. just being present, showing up for it, trying not to insert ourselves in the process. I think many people show up thinking that they want to make it better somehow, but sometimes all of our plans and ideas about making it better, sometimes make it worse.

I think it's important that we also acknowledge our grief ourselves to avoid filling up the space between me and another person with my experience and just let them have theirs. not try to like rush their process along or slow it down or change it or shift it in any way because somebody isn't crying doesn't mean they're not grieving, you know, just because somebody isn't showing up in their grief

the way that we think that they should doesn't mean that their process is any less valid. Yeah, I wish that we would just let people be. I mean, period, but particularly in their grief. Yeah. I'm curious as you've seen countless people die gracefully and many probably not, I'm assuming. I'm curious, what are the necessary internal and external arrangements for someone to

die gracefully? What are those you feel? We can take them both separately. Okay. The question is internal and external. Arrangements. Interesting archel. I would say external arrangements, right?

Like the things that one might do while they're living so that they can die gracefully and for those that are around them. So externally, you're not talking about the practical things, but more our lives in relationship to death, yeah? No, that's more internally. I would say externally, yeah, the practical stuff. Oh, the practical things. Oh, easy-peasy.

Health care directives, thinking through who I want to make my decisions for me in the event that I can't, getting absolutely clear on how I want to be treated in the medical care system in the event that something happens and somebody has to make decisions but clear on what my values are so that they can use my values to really underscore

the decisions that they make for me. I want to make sure that I have a plan for any of my dependents and my pets. The best place to do that is in a will for children to be clear on who the guardians will be if the co-parent is not available for that. How does someone do that? Get clear.

Write a will and take care of that stuff. Well, you can go to a lawyer for support in creating will. You can also do it yourself. I would suggest that the most important bits is that you think about who you want to carry out your affairs, like who you trust to say, you should get this, you should get that, and then also make a plan for the either big ticket items in your life or the sentimental items in your life, because both of those things cause a lot of grief and fighting after death. We also got to be clear on

our body and our services, like, what do I want done with my body after I can't use it anymore? how should it be, you know, disposed of in some way back to the earth or whatever our ideas may be. How I want my life celebrated. Am I trying to have a big party or do I just want a gentle gathering or something of the sort? We also got to think through all of our documents, like our key documents, where are they? Where are they? There are so many of them. But gather them in a place so that people are not going on a scavenger hunt after I die.

They're going to have to go through my things anyway, but let me try. try to make it a little bit easier for them. Okay. So those are some of the external arrangements, yes? And we could go much deeper into them. Finances and bank accounts and credit cards and social media. A lot of things to consider. A lot of things to consider.

What do you think is the best way to bring this up to like, do this with your loved ones, do this with your family? And instead of just spearheading it solo, which I guess you could do, like, how do you think it's best to bring this up to like do it? and address it with your parents or people you care about? I think it really depends on who you're talking to because my mom, for example, was just like, let's do it. And we sat down one afternoon and we did her entire end of life plan.

My father, on the other hand, took a lot of coaxing and a lot of effort. And we didn't even make it all the way through. So we still have some work to do there. Some folks are just down to discuss it and other people take a little bit more effort. One way that I found is useful sometimes is if there has been a death either in the family or the community to say like, hey, this happened,

you see what happened here, what did you think? Or you hear somebody bitching about something that happened at somebody else's funeral. You can say, well, what would you want for yourself? Or if you didn't like that, well, what do you want us to do for you? Or something along those lines, just to break that open. I think, you know, family gatherings is an interesting time to bring it up. I would not suggest.

Thanksgiving dinner. That's what I was just about to say. Maybe not that. And certainly not before any wine has been poured. But like maybe doing dishes afterward would be a better time. You know, something that a space that can create a little bit more intimacy. Yeah. In that, though, it inherently speaks to the uncomfortableness that we feel.

bringing things up, talking about something that is all going to be experienced by all of us. But I get it. I'm fascinated at like the turning away of something that is inevitable and that like what is that in us, you know? And how do you want, when you look at the available options of how to be buried,

what are your, what's your personal choice? And what do you think is like, what are the options on the menu for people? Wow, so many options now. I mean, we have our two big buckets, right? We have burial and cremation for the bodies. Yeah. But two big buckets.

But with burial comes like a green burial, the opportunity to be laid directly in the ground with biodegradable materials around you, not too far deep, so that's not too cold and bugs can still get to you and do their thing. The earth can do what it needs to do with your body. And then traditional burials and like a coffin or a casket,

six feet underground in like a concrete vault, et cetera, et cetera. Then there is within cremation, there's a million things to do with cremains, right? You can make it into lead for a pencil or a diamond. Some people are tattooing it into their bodies. You can scatter them places where it won't bother the earth too much. Everybody, please. But they can also be kept. There just needs to be a plan.

Then there are some new ideas slightly like natural. organic reduction, which I really enjoy, spearheaded by this person named Katrina Spade, where they essentially turn the body over and over and over, and over, and over time, it decomposes much like composting. There is aquamation. And then they, what, just put it in the soil? Yeah, then it becomes soil. Yeah.

And then they can use the soil, people can use the soil. Yeah. Cool, right? Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Planted garden with it. Exactly.

pull grandma on the mangoes. That sounds pretty good to me. Sounds, I'm not eating. If my friend invites me over, I'm not eating grandma mangoes. No, no. Those are probably really tasty. Okay, they've been blessed. It depends.

Was she a sweet grandma or was she an angry grandma? Good question. Regardless, I have grandma wisdom in you. There's also aquamation, which is like water cremation. Essentially, the body is in a vat of lie, essentially. We're all like the fat and tissue and everything, muscles decompose over time. And then all that's left as a liquid. That liquid can be used as fertilizer or whatever else with the body.

So there's, there are options. Yeah. What's your choice? My choice is a green burial for now. I want to be directly back to the earth. Yeah. Any hot pink and orange, raw silk shroud, just deep down in. covered back up and left for all the elements to do what they will with my body.

Yeah, just take me right back. What else for your own personal? How do you want to die? I want to die outside. I would love your deck, by the way. In case it's available. If you're like, if you are cutting an avocado and you need to rush over here. Right, great.

Permission granted. Would be ideal. Trees, everywhere, trees. I'd love to see them. I'm changing color. So if I get to choose, this is what I'm choosing. I'm also choosing the fall. So that the leaves are changing color.

I want it to be around sunset. How old do you think you are? I don't actually want to be like 100 or so. I want to be, I want to feel good enough in my body, but maybe tired and sick enough that it's time to leave it, you know? So I don't know. We'll see how long that goes. All he knows right now, my knees are aching and I'm only 47.

So let's see how that goes. But I want to be outside, everything, slowly changing colors. I want to hear, like, water or something very, very faintly, but not the ocean necessarily agitates me. I want to smell beautiful, sweet things. I want my people around, but I do not want them all looking at me. I don't want them looking at me. I want them talking to each other and comforting each other and drinking tea. and tequila.

I want maybe like a little bit of music, but I really just want to hear the wind. I want to hear wind and trees and birds. And I want it just to feel like a very ordinary moment, much like the ordinary moment, I think, that I was born into, but rather now my exit. Yeah, I love that, you know, just to hear that bird just on my way out, that feels.

pretty great. I think it'd be great. Yeah, I don't know if the mics picked that up, but it was nice. Well, you and I heard it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about you? Have you thought about it? Yes. I have. What's interesting, though, in contrast of what you just shared is the reality for the vast majority of people and the cold, hard, medical fluorescent ceiling lights in a hospital room, which medical system obviously bears so many incredible fruits, birth and death in many other areas, but birth and death,

it really seems to just have so many shortcomings in terms of how sterile and clinical these monumental beginnings and endings, one might say, of life are. And so, yeah, definitely don't want to die in a hospital room.

Clear. Yeah. I'm also, I mean, everything you just said, sign me up for. I maybe won't do the pink shroud silk situation maybe like maroon let's see

I'm down with people not staring at me I'm down I'm down to have my loved ones nearby I want to be if we're just picking from whatever is possible I do think it's possible to consciously leave your body

and I'd like that I want to be fully present for when I leave so I'm down to live a long and healthy life. And I'm down to live over, I feel like with longevity escape velocity and the technologies that are coming

and what we're learning about the human body, like not only is lifespan extending, but health span really will as well and be able to live healthy for a long time, God willing, knock on wood. And yeah, I think the biggest thing is I want to be present for it and surrounded in nature by nature. We'll see, won't we?

We will see, because the thing is, we can make these plans and then life has its own. Yeah, but then still I find so much value in at least envisioning it. Yeah. For me, it is really supportive because it makes my death then a thing that could feel peaceful. You know, it's full of so much like fear and so much need for like control and want to know and so much anxiety for many. It's like, well, what if I just imagine an end that makes me feel good?

I don't have any control over it anyway, unless I choose, you know, unless I actually choose, I don't have any control. And so let me imagine something that feels easy, like a cup of tea and a good book on a Sunday afternoon. Yeah. I'm curious if your closest friends were giving your eulogy after you passed. And it's probably going to require you to step outside of yourself a bit. Okay. And what do you think they would say about Aalua, like about what uniquely,

is distinct about you and your essence. And, yeah, the reason I say take yourself out of it because it's like, I think it's tough to see ourselves always as the people around to see us. But what do you think they would really say? I think they'd probably say that I filled out life, that I kept looking for my edges and that I played in them,

but I also knew one to pull back. I think they'd say I loved to laugh and that I loved fiercely and that there were some things I really didn't play about at all. But there are other things where just life felt like play. They'd say I took my French fries very seriously and my Beyonce. I think that they'd probably say. that I was courageous. It doesn't feel like it to me, but I hear that reflected back to me sometimes,

and I'm like, are you kidding? Because I'm terrified right now. I mean, yeah, nobody who's feeling courage, right? Doesn't feel the fear. Do it anyways, right? That's beautiful. Keep going. Keep pushing that direction. Yeah.

Yeah, I think they probably also say that I I dance a lot. Like I dance with life, but I also would like bust a move in a CVS aisle. I think that's what they'd say. Amazing. Yeah. We'll see.

Yeah. We will see. Do you think, have you thought about eulogy? Because I think it's an interesting thought experiment to see yourself through the eyes of another as well, but also what would we say for our friends, right? and can we tell them while they're alive?

I'm doing that with them all the time, which is fun. All right, often say to people, I'm going to talk about this when you're dead because it's like, listen, you just did that thing that just absolutely encapsulates who you are and I'm going to tell them about this when you are dead. I think it would be cool to be able to be in that practice as people consistently.

When I was writing my book, I saw it a little bit about writing my own eulogy in there. Like, what do I want people to say about me? And so I did this exercise where I asked myself, what they would say, and they said a lot of things. It's nice to get that reflection. I mean, it was feedback, you know what I mean? And a lot of it was great.

And some of it was like, oh, oh, yeah, actually, you're right. You know what I mean? Make sure you just leave out that one line. Just say these things about me. In reality, I want them to tell the whole truth. You know, I want them to say everything. I want them to say the big, beautiful things and also the places where I was difficult.

because inevitably, somebody has that experience to me. There are people that despise me. I'm certain of it because I'm the villain in their story that one time I looked at somebody when I probably just had something in my eye, but that's what they know of me. You know what I mean? So tell everything.

Tell everything. Yeah. I did ask students a while back. I teach death doulas as well, but I used to ask students to write their own eulogy and they would always get stuck on that section. And so I thought, let's just make it like, a suggestion for one day when you're bored as opposed to requirement of the course.

Yeah. What? Because I know you have just in getting to dig a little bit deeper into you, your work, your life, what do you think these three things have uniquely, I guess, stretch your capacity to be with people in the moment that they're dying and the contemplation and all the things leading up to it? Vapasana, Burning Man. and entheogens, psychedelics.

Oh, it's all the same. All the same. All the same, all the way through. Nice. A couple of really key things. First, the willingness to just open, you know, to allow what will be to be. Also, the, like, the space between stimulus and trigger and the choice, like that's something that was revealed to me very clearly in Vipasana,

but then I saw in practice also at Burning Man where there is so much stimulus, right? And so often with the lights and the, just a lot, humans, and just my mind's getting blown left and right, and I'm having the time of my life, like Jess. But there's so much stimulus, and who do I choose to be in the face of all the stimulus consistently? And then also entheogens in the same,

like there's stimulus and there's stimulus, and it reveals something much deeper about who I am and so who am I choosing to be what really arises for the surface then too. That's one thing. All of them are just so transformative chances to play. My assumption is that you've played in those spaces as well. I did go to Burning Man this past year

and it's my second time, which was super amazing experience. I think a lot of people have this notion of Bernie Man being like a bunch of hippies doing drugs. And for sure that's an option on the menu of that experience. But there's a, just to choose your own adventure. Like there's,

it's just, it's an amazing adult playground to explore and, um, yeah, make it your own. And so yeah, Papasana also has been a big part of my path. Um,

I went this past year again. And it's a, I think it's such a transformative practice to carry into every other aspect of life. And then a little bit of entheogens as well. So yeah, they're all great. But I'm curious what you kind of spoke, they all had this ability to kind of open you

and I guess be present. You said between the stimulus and response that like choice that's in the middle and creating more space in that to be present. So that directly you think has expanded your ability to be with people in those moments of resistance and uncertainty and all of it. I think so.

And that also when the space opens where I get to choose how I want to show up, I think it creates space for people to also get to choose who they want to be. And it also just allows me to be present, like to show up for somebody where they are, how they are, and also for me, where I am and how I am. When we can do that with each other, you know, there's a lot of potential for healing. And healing can be happening even when somebody is dying. just looks a little different than we traditionally think. Yeah.

The great mystery of what happens after we die, which you spoke to. I want to talk a little bit about that, because especially somebody who's been in contemplation of the spiritual side of things in their own personal practice and then working with so many people in the confronting reality of their own mortality, what do you think happens? I have this working theory. Great. Called the glitter wave. The glitter wave.

Wait, you said this at the end of your book, yeah. I did. Okay. This is my working theory. Right? Because it's just kind of ridiculous and a good time. And I think really, you know, hit some really key components. Okay.

So in my glitter wave, I'm at the moment of my death. And while I'm on your deck, just right outside. And it's so beautiful. Internally, I'm just feeling all the feelings that I felt while I was human. All the things that's having this body and being present in this body allowed me. to experience. So all the smells and the taste and the love and the fear and the doubt and

you know, the joy and the intrigue and the mystery and all the juiciness of being alive, all of it is starting to like bubble up in my body. And I'm feeling all like the little experience is to just kind of not like a not like a tape, but rather

just like a deeply somatic experience of all that stuff. So I'm feeling it all. And feeling it when I'm so full up of all the feeling that I cannot take a second more, everything explodes. Not my body because it's on your direct, but inside, everything just explodes inside.

And it explodes into this really brightly colored confetti, bits of confetti, shooting out in the cosmos with the force of my human life just behind it, just straight out there, confetti. Falling, falling, falling like a soft snow shower because there's gravity and whoever this is, shot out too, right? But the confetti is falling, and all the confetti represents little flex of my human life. And so some of it is like that really delicious fried plantain I just hadn't

gone on the first time I bit into it, you know? And some of it is when my heart was shattered by that stupid boy in the fourth grade or, you know, all those little tiny, tiny parts of my human existence are starting to fall like soft snow. And, you know, The snow falls and some parts of me, the things that I did or the ways that I touched people are so stick on the people who I touched. And the other things that nobody ever knew or cared for or really didn't matter just keep following, falling, falling, and all the snow, the glitter snow just keeps falling around. And all the bits just eventually settle somewhere.

And the ones that didn't stick to anybody, those connect with a massive undulating glitter wave that goes on for all of eternity, all shapes everywhere, just glitter everywhere, connecting with everything that ever was and will ever be and just goes on forever. I'll just buy it a gradable glitter. I'm curious because there's definitely a lot of threads of that in that analogy that give weight to the experiences we have,

the quality that we have in our, life and how there is a continuation of that, of how memory continues on and is entangled with with people. And when you study consciousness, both like internally as a practitioner of meditation and as a human being, and then also as you can scientifically and the many different theories of what, you know, consciousness is, what's fascinating to me is when you explore, like, who we are most fundamentally in. our essence and you start to get more familiar with the stillness of self and you experience a boundless,

birthless, deathless, consciousness, awareness that is present in our experience. And you start to sit and marinate in that space more and you start to actually identify more with that space and less of just like a separate self in a body, which is an amazing gift that we have. But to me, both internally as I've grown in that awareness and then also been with people who have grown in that awareness, there is a, there seems to be an inverse relationship, a direct correlation between the growing of awareness of self and consciousness and fear, lack of fear of death. Because what is dying is not life.

It's death is the opposite of birth. Life is a continuation that is going to continue on afterwards. And I'm curious, as you've explored, beyond your glitter wave, glitter wave. Glitter. Hypothesis? I like that. What have you, yeah, what are your thoughts beyond that in terms of what happens with consciousness?

Well, from what I've witnessed around people, you know, my work really tries to focus on what's happening with the body because it's the only thing that I can actually observe. And the rest are things that I get to play with. But from what I've observed, it seems as though, people, have the opportunity to something shifts, something open, something moves into what I don't actually wish that I knew. I don't wish I knew, but something shifts. I play around a lot with the idea of what actually dies. We sometimes people talk about who is dying and how we feel about that death in particular, but I think the root of the question is what dies, what is it that's actually dying, and pinpoint our focus on that to maybe try to soften the pain, the anxiety, the fear around

death itself. Yeah. I do my best to keep my personal beliefs about what happens after we die to myself, because if I don't, it's really hard for my clients or anybody else to come to me with what they think. You know what I mean? Because then they're, then they think I already know something. And I'm like, or you can have yours too. Yeah.

Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero, more like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. Yeah, it's interesting to think what is actually dying. And you could also argue that what's fundamentally dying is our own belief of separation. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Which is part of the, like the cool thing about being human or the interesting thing about being human, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thank God. this first player perspective, and this is what I know and this is what I see.

And that's it, as far as I'm concerned. But some of that is what makes dying so challenging because we're so tied to this first player perspective that I cannot possibly fathom, I, general I cannot possibly fathom that there could be anything other than this one. And so if this were to die, then what? it's just so disconcerving. But there are currently human, $8 billion, let alone all the beings, all the trees,

all the other forms of consciousness that exists with us. What do you make of what seems to be a lot of very similar reportings on near-death experiences in terms of the experience of what happens when people go

and they are clinically dead for seconds up to a couple minutes, you know, what does that raise questions for you? And yeah, what are you thought? I love it. Because they all sounds so similar, you know? They all sound so similar that there is something happening.

They're experiencing something in physical body. But then what's happening otherwise with consciousness is that they are moving toward something that feels so warm and enveloping and there's light and there's ease and there feels like peace. And I think most say, I don't want to go back to. earth. I'm just trying to kick it here, but then for others, there's still something that needs to be done, or there's the grief, or their work isn't complete in some way, and so they come back. I love hearing, I love hearing about near-death experiences. I love hearing people's stories,

and I want it desperately to be true. You know, I want that for them. I want that for them. I don't know what I want for myself, but I want that for them. Yeah. I find it very fascinating. We had, which I mentioned to you, Anita Mursani on the podcast, and also I think that's probably the only predominant NDE experience or story we've had on the show are highlighted, but I find it so interesting, the conciliants between what people say, which, of course, there's a big variance, but there are like some core things that are repeated and somebody

who has gone through death. I mean, they didn't make it fully to the other side, but they got a peek and the window, right, so to speak. And so that to me is also comforting for, like, you know, and raises so many questions about, okay, then what really is life? Who is it? What is it that actually dies? And, oh.

Yeah. And the fact that we will never know, ever, what we try to think through is with the human mind, you know, even as, even when I get to the space of stillness in myself, even when I can feel beyond what this might be like, it's still through this perspective, through this aperture. The mystery and the force of that mystery is one of the things that I love most about working in death.

I can tunnel as deeply as I want to over and over and over again, and I won't get any closer. I just got to wait and find out. When you project yourself to the end of your life, and you look back with hindsight onto your life now. I'm not a huge fan of the word legacy, but when you think about what it is that because there were things that you felt that were undone,

that you ended up doing, that are now out in the world and how you served and showed up, what, for lack of a better term, would you want your legacy to be? And how important do you feel it is for people to reflect on that or not important? I think it's important to,

think about who we are being, because I actually think that's our legacy. You know, a lot of people have the idea of legacy tied up in like... What you do? Yeah, our money, our accomplishments, like our names on the side of buildings and et cetera. But it's more just about how we're showing up because we're leaving a legacy all the time. So every action, every inaction, every word spoken, every time I chose not to say something, you know, how I showed up for Palestine or did everything. everything is part of our legacy consistently. And when we think of it through that lens,

I think it's helpful because it's the same conversation as thinking about my deathbed self. Like, who am I? Who have I become? So I think it's useful in that way. But I don't think it's useful when we tie it to productivity and like dollars. Yeah.

Who knows how good my ego was and compared to other egos, you know, instead of how I showed up for people. Exactly. Exactly. that to me is where the real juice is. It's like, how did I human? But less in a grading like A plus C minus way

and more in the, was I true, did I do this? Yeah. In the last chapter of the book, you kind of raised this question of why, like the more metaphysical of like why life, why death, like why the meaning of life and contemplate in so many of these things? since the time of like sharing your thoughts there and in this present day right now,

how do you answer the question, why life, why this whole drama of birth and death and all of this? What are your current thoughts? I still don't have any. I don't. And with the number of mosquitoes in L.A. recently, I just been asking a lot, why. Yeah. Yeah.

But the not knowing the space of surrender, like the actual. falling into the utter perfection of the natural world. And this entire experience we're having has to keep arising for us to be okay with life as it is, like over and over and over again. Otherwise, we're going to have a very hard time. What do you feel like we have in comfort today that is essential for people to reflect on? Well, I was just curious about what do you think about why? Why?

All of it. Why? Why eyebrows? I think that life and the intelligence of life is so vast that the human mind is, it's always going to be a futile endeavor to try to explain. It's always going to be such a small percentage of the whole. And I think that there is something to the reflection that, life takes on this illusion of separation in many sense to gain access to various infinite

different perspectives of itself. So I kind of look at life and all phenomena around me as the universe experiencing itself and through its own experience of being a beetle or a tree or an aloe or an André that it gains knowledge of itself in that unique context. So I think in many ways like the the why is like to be, to be us to be if the fullness of of the expression of who we are. And I think that is also what is most radiant and magnetic when you meet people that, you know, authenticity has gotten a good PR agent

and like everyone loves to talk about authenticity, right? A plus. But the essence of that of being yourself and knowing your values and who you are, I think to me feels like my reason for the meaning of it all, which I think is personal. Like the why question is a personal question we all get to explore. And I think that also there's this saying, the heavy chains of worry are forged in idle hours,

meaning the question of why, for more of the existential stance, usually comes up when we're not living, you know, when we're more, those contemplations come up when we're kind of more stagnant in our energies. but when we're creating, when we're playful, you know, when we're living life in that sense, I think the why question is doesn't arise because we're in the act of it. We're creating creative beings, you know, so those are a few things that I'd say, but who knows? None of us ever. Isn't that so fun?

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think, more fun this way. Yeah. I think there's something inherently liberating, which I get from how comfortable you seem in this conversation with just the mystery of this, of this all of life, of death, of what happens after. And I'm sure, you know, there's many moments where maybe you're not comfortable, right? But, like, coming at ease with those terms, the words I don't know, you know, is so liberating.

It's so liberating. And I'm, yeah, I'm curious how much of your work do you feel like is helping people just arrive to those three words. It's so much of it. Yeah. It's so much of it. I think a lot of my work is really about surrender. you know, because the constant trying to figure it out is trying to create some context, trying to make it make some type of sense. Like, again, using that human mind to try to encapsulate it or get context for this really strange experience that we're all having. And if we can just be with it as it is and take it in.

And when I'm taking it in, I'm often far more in the space of awe and wonder, which is a place I really like to sit, as opposed to the, the, you know, cute little human, like, I'm going to figure it. I'm going to do this. I'm going to find a solution. I'm going to solve it. And there are a lot of things that we just can't solve, you know? And I cannot bend the will of life in my direction all the time.

Some things I can do. Some things I can do. But the larger will of life, it's going to go how it's going to go, including how it is that I meet my death again unless I choose. But even then is me riding the wave, if you will. So the surrender into the, I don't know, the surrender into like the, This existence is the thing that is a tough practice for many. It shows up, I think, when people fear what happens after we die

or have a lot of, a lot tied up in it because it's directly tied to the unknown and our lack of control or need to surrender that really gets panties in a bunch. It's tough. It's tough. But we don't know what's going to happen this next minute. I think that's a really important reflection, like that we simply don't know what is going to unfold in our awareness the next millisecond of our experience. There's no certainty we can provide to that knowledge. Anything.

Yeah. To absolutely nothing. And it's terrifying if we're really present with it. But also it's a space where utter freedom, if we choose that, too, is one or the other. Yeah. I try to get to where I'm going on. time and then there's something happening on the street. And we just got to sit back into it and be like, I'll get there when I get there.

And I cannot do anything about it. And you know, either I raise my blood pressure by trying really hard to still make it there or I just chill and watch the other cars on the road. Yeah, I'll get there. Yeah, I think there is a big part of my path that was like switching this narrative from maybe a more pessimistic view on life to like the optimistic side. And I mean, they're both equally in many senses. kind of like made-up fantasies, like projections onto life,

whether we have fear because of something negative that might happen in the future versus excitement because we think something positive from our perspective might happen in the future. You know, the surrendering, which is like, I'm okay with whatever actually happens. It's like that level of freedom is something that I'm way more interested in

that I'm glad you brought up. It's juicier. It's tougher. It's tougher. I think it is almost easy. year to choose optimism or pessimism in one way or the other. Either nothing is working in my favor and it's all for shit or it's all for good and everything will work out in my favor. And also regardless of what happens, I'm a be okay. It's one that, you know, we, we, I try to sit in.

It works a lot with clients too, just a consistent trying to come back to the space of surrender. Because most of these people are in these situations when they had other ideas or what they were doing with their lives and with their time. You know, how many of them expected to get diagnosed with cancer at 49? How many? You know, how many expected this end that they would meet? Nobody, really. How many of them had the ideal death that they sought out or that they started thinking

about if they ever did? Not very many. And so we must just surrender to the circumstances that are before us. But it's tough. It's tough. I think we also, you know, the human feels so much power. and yet I am sitting here utterly powerless against trillions of functions

that are happening in my body at this moment and I got nothing to do with them at all. Yeah, yet we rely on them to be alive and that is largely why I was so excited to sit down with you today because we've definitely talked about death throughout many different conversations in a theme that's been brought up.

this is one of the few where we like really dive deep and focus on it a lot more as an episode um and i just think that there's something so powerful about how reflecting on life in this way and death in this way reveals to us the gift and the awareness of the gift that is life and how that shapes how we live you know because that's what i'm really i think it's really important to talk about all the arrangements of death and the moment of death and these things that are under examined as well But what ignites me so much about is like what that means about who we are and how we live. And I think that you provided so many different useful perspectives about questions that we can ask today about what we must do so that we can live fully presently, die gracefully, the things that really give us most meaning and value and showing up to value our essence, not just our ego is productivity and accomplishments, you know? and yeah, so I can imagine that your best friends at your eulogy would say

really beautiful things because in the past plus a little over an hour of getting to meet you, I would say some amazing things as well. Yeah, it's been a really nourishing conversation. Thank you, Andre. Yeah, they probably also want me to shut up about death. Well, it's good. You're clearly doing what you love. Yeah, they're not going to forget.

Or I mean, you're going to die. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Of course. Is there anything last on your heart that we covered a lot of ground in today's conversation, but is there something that you feel like would be uniquely supportive? I think something that is helpful that we didn't really talk about it. We talked about how to support other people through grief,

but I think people are often curious about how to support other people through death because most people are doing it. You know, a lot of people will, most people will do it at some point in their lives. And I get questions about it consistently, so I think it could be useful. as a secondary thing to supporting people through grief. I would love to hear that. Yeah. Well, one of the ways that, well, I just said,

I think people are asking this all the time, and they do. And now I'm like, what am I going to say? But mostly, as an aside, somebody is telling me recently that one thing she appreciates is that even though I get asked similar questions all the time, I answer differently always. So this is today's answer. Yeah.

Okay. most of us will, like, support somebody in our lives as they're dying. Either we're the primary caregiver and we're there passing medicine and learning how to change people and change sheets and et cetera. Or somebody in our lives is dying and we're calling to check on them or hearing about what's going on with their care from people around or there'll be a sudden death or a traumatic death and we've got to show up for it in some way. I think it's wildly, wildly, wildly supportive that we make space for. our own personal relationship with death first, so that we can allow the person who's dying to just have their experience.

So that when I'm in the space of somebody else is dying, I'm doing my best not to put my fears or my concerns about dying on them so I can just be present for their experience. It's a hard thing to do, to be clear on our relationship with death. But there are a lot of tools that can be supportive as people, like if you're in that process yourself,

think about your immortality, bring it to the surface, bring it to the forefront, because that's going to be, I think, like the key to showing up for your person as opposed to just putting yourself in their shoes all the time and not actually listening to them and being present for them in a meaningful way. It's never too early to plan your summer story in Europe with WestJet, from rolling countryside to cobblestone streets. Begin your next chapter.

Book your seat at westjet.com or call your travel agent. WestJet, where your story takes off. How? Did you blouse? No. The Devil Wears Prada 2. He's the movie event 20 years in the making. Honestly, can't with the secrets anymore, so I think we just should tell her. Will you two please spit it out already?

This Friday, be the first to experience it only in theaters. In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. Oh, because we're a team now. That's a nice story. The Devil Where's Prada 2 in Theaters Friday. Is there anything else that comes to mind, specifically when supporting I think the inevitable thing is like we start to get older and then we start to see our parents get older faster.

It's hard. What are you think, even before like the moment of death and the certain arrangements that you need to meet, what are some questions and conversations that you think are really important to have while people are still healthy enough to have them? Well, I mean, a very important one is about their values for living. A lot of these things we can ascertain

just by being in relationship with somebody, but I think it's very helpful to hear for them what they value about their lives so that if faced with a decision about health care, we can rely on what we already know about what they value to make it, as opposed to, I mean, if we can, get a health care agent, medical power of attorney,

write down very clearly your desires for life support, specifically all the decisions that your health care agent can make, all the different types of life support you want, that would be the gold standard. In the absence of that, being clear on what your values for living are because I think we find that not only does that help in the health care that we receive,

like across the board, not only medical decisions, but also in this facility or that one or this doctor or that doctor, but it also helps us figure out how we are living our lives presently all the way up until that point. So when, like, let's start talking about values. Like, what do you value about living? What do you value about your life?

There's also a question that reveals more of the human that's in front of us that we presumably love and care for. And I think I've gotten surprised by it for sure. So, yeah, let's keep asking those questions. I think it's also fascinating when you grow up and you realize that your mommy and daddy are also just human beings on a path. It is an experience, isn't it? And then when they get older.

Yeah, right. And then, you know, there's this turning of like we're all sons and daughters, you could say, of life at large, and start to view how, like, the cycle turns, you know? And, like, I have at periods, like, seen my mother more as, like, my sister, even my daughter at times when you, like, have that love that wants to take care of. And I think it's interesting to me to, like, be able to re-meet somebody in adulthood who, you had a certain relationship at a certain phase of life, obviously. and then you get to remit who they are, what their values are,

and what their life was like, the challenges that they face and, like, get to get those things expressed, you know? I know that there's certain things, for example, my mom. I know certain fears that she has, like, certain things that I really know she wants to experience that, like, I'm excited to experience with her, for sure. And it's, I think it's important to figure out what those are. Have you all talked about death at all? A little bit, yeah.

I would say actually quite a bit. Great. Yeah. Yeah, we're pretty open with talking about all that stuff. Wonderful. So you have a sense of what she might want or how she wants to be cared for nearing the end? I think in terms of like the, those certain arrangements, we need to talk more about those. Yeah.

We've just talked more, I guess, like, existentially about death. Yeah. But the practical stuff is, I think, good to get down. Sure. But what about her life as a whole? like the things that she loved in it or desired more of or less of or. Yeah, I mean, all those things. I think getting to also get context for like her growing up life like in Palestine and Lebanon

and coming out here and like we have so little context as growing up with these parents, you know, of like what it took for them to give us the life that we have. and so getting to get more of that context of her upbringing, I think was really really powerful. And then the things that, you know, she still wishes to experience. And so I think it's cool to, and at least I desire to help be a champion

for those things to be experienced for sure. Yay. While she's alive. Lucky mother. Yeah. She's a great mom. Yeah. Love her.

And it sounds like she deserves it too, you know. Yeah. I mean, we all do. We all do. But especially, I think, for those that poured so much into us. I just, I hope that I can make like the dying time of my parents just a little bit more cushy. Yeah, for sure. Hey, Loua, you're awesome.

Nah, so are you, Andre. It's great to talk to you. Yeah, it's great to connect. I'm excited for many more conversations in the future. Same. And, yeah, I'm here. I'm a friend and I'm excited to expose our community for those who aren't already with you and your work. And we'll leave links down in the description where people can stay connected with you

and your book and your foundation and all of it. Thank you. Well, I'm dying on your deck. Yeah. Hopefully not anytime soon. No. But let's see. I think I'll probably, I mean, listen, I'll probably have a different place by the time.

Okay. But if there's an emergency and you need to come, you got my deck. Thank you. Yeah. You got it. I mean, it's pretty. That's it. I'm grateful.

Thank you. And thank you for everybody who's been tuning into this episode. Appreciate you guys. Until next time, Beewel, we did it. Instacart knows that some people go bananas about getting the perfect, well, banana. Some want them green, some want them ripe, some want them ready right when they hit their doorstep. But with Instacart's preference picker, available at most retailers, you can choose to get your groceries just the way you like. That means perfectly ripe bananas, deli meat sliced just the way you want,

and avocados that aren't still hard as a puck in the third period. So don't cross your fingers and hope for the best. Download the app and get groceries just how you like with Instacart.