Know Thyself - E77 - Mooji: Awakening, Conscious Relating & Cultivating The Fire For Self Discovery

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Today we have the honor of sitting down with Mooji, who reflects on the journey of awakening, finding bliss in the here and now, and merging with the Infinite. This conversation is full of divine inspiration and Mooji even guides us through an exercise for awakening and expanding awareness.  Mooji and André discuss the foundations of spiritual living, revealing how to release your attachment to the ego, and reconnect to your true essence. Mooji shares his perspective on conscious relationships, overcoming sexual desires, and finding a wealth that’s deeper than money.  For anyone looking to start and grow a THRIVING podcast - Check out our comprehensive Podcast with Purpose Course: https://www.podcastpurpose.com/ ___________ Timecodes: 0:00 Intro 2:13 What it Means to Awaken Spiritually  6:56 Finding Who We Are, Through Who We're Not 8:54 Releasing our Attachment to Thoughts 16:14 Awakening Unfolds in Perfect Time 19:28 Navigating Slip-Ups Along the Path 22:45 What God/ Enlightenment Feels Like 26:05 Releasing the Ego, Tasting the Infinite 30:43 Mooji Guides an Exercise for Expanding Awareness 46:23 True Sadana: Overcoming Fear and Merging with the Infinite 50:29 Being in the World as a Spiritual Being 53:28 Does Mooji struggle with ego? 54:47 Getting to the Root of Judgement 59:53 Stop Wasting Your Energy on This 1:03:15 Conscious Romantic Connections 1:08:10 Finding Freedom From Sexual Desires 1:15:00 Navigating Praise & Blame 1:19:00 Deeper than Money: The Wealth of Being  1:24:59 How the Universe Conspires for Self Remembrance  1:26:39 The Divine Expression of Creativity 1:30:24 Mooji’s Awakening Through a Christian Mystic  1:39:38 Facilitating Spiritual Transformation in Others 1:42:19 What Happens After Death 1:49:00 From Struggle to Surrender: Embracing Our Inevitable Awakening  1:56:36 Conclusion  ___________ Mooji is a true light in this world, whose presence, wisdom and loving guidance point us to who we are beyond the limitations of our personal conditioning and identity. In open interactions with this great spiritual Master, seekers of Truth from all backgrounds and traditions are introduced to the direct path to freedom through self-inquiry and The Invitation—which is proving to be one of the most effective aids for true and lasting Self-realisation. Universal in his appeal, Moojibaba’s wisdom, compassion, openness and humour profoundly touch the hearts of those who meet him, thereby inspiring each one to find within themselves the deep peace, love and silence they recognise in him. Website: https://mooji.org YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Moojiji ___________ Download André's FREE Book Recommendation List: https://www.knowthyself.one/books Know Thyself Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ Website: https://www.knowthyself.one Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKg Listen to all episodes on Audio:  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927 André Duqum Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ Meraki Media https://merakimedia.com https://www.instagram.com/merakimedia/

At some point, we'll find all that the senses have to offer, all that the natural world has to offer. The human beings are compelled by some force to have a deeper search. We are suffering from an overload of attachments to things which are ephemeral by nature, including the very idea of who we are. At a certain point, you want more knowledge, but I bring you fire.

and the fire you is deeper than knowledge. It takes you beyond everything. I can share with you a simple guidance that will happen with you. Would you be willing to leave everything of past? And so then I can ask you just a few simple questions. All human beings are in search of something that don't know what it is. I say you're in search of this.

All these things that come and go, something in this universe, and it's in you that does not come and go. The real challenge and the life is to find that. It is here and it is you. Hello, beautiful beings. Welcome back to the Know They Self podcast. I am filled with joy to be here at Monte Sahaja in Portugal

and to be across and be with a being today whose presence and teachings have impacted the hearts of millions of people around the globe, including my own, his simple yet powerful pointings into the true nature of self. I feel reveal a lot of freedom and joy. joy that is already available to us in this moment. And if I can invite the listeners today to when listening to this podcast to not be on the conquest for collecting more information, but to allow what I share today to reflect on it in your immediate reality and experience what is said in the moment in your own self. So without further ado, Mugi, thank you so much for being here

today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Quite the setting. It's so beautiful here. Thank you for hosting us. Very good. Welcome. Yeah, where I want to start today because this is the Know They Self podcast, you know, since we're young, we are constantly learning about the world. We are constantly learning about defining the natural world around us and we go to school. And we learn so much yet we don't often have the space, opportunity, invitation to look within and to look within one own self. And so where I want to start today is as we grow when we start to learn more about the world around us, the mind, the body, the matured, the matured. process is to learn to the truest nature of who we are in our deepest self. And so can you take us on a journey of what you feel it means to know thyself and to who we truly are in our core? First, I think it is quite correct.

All the beings who take human form, they came for purpose on the earth. And something draws them here. First, must learn about the natural phenomenal world, the earth and this amazing, planet, no? But as much as we can learn

about the planet and we are not all on the same level or stage of maturity in terms of our spiritual growth. So it's a full mix and it's an intentional mix I feel by the

supreme consciousness that all will learn from each other. If we're all equal, I don't know it. It doesn't make sense like that. At some point we'll find all that the senses have to offer, all that the natural world has to offer. It's a vast kingdom.

We could go on and on and on. But at some point, the human beings are compelled by some force to have a deeper search because all these things without a real understanding and knowledge of our innate nature, it will not be fulfilling. As much as we desire and attain what we desire, there are always higher regions to go and go.

And so I don't want to put some limitation on that. But what we know is that for many human beings who have come to the earth, I've demonstrated that at a certain point all the things that could be enjoyed through the senses, through the mind, were not enough. They were not fulfilling at a deeper level. They were superficially enjoyable at a superficial level. and some force within them compels them to search

for more meaning, more authentic connection with something that they may not be so clear, but they have a deep intuition that it is not held in the mere phenomenal interaction with a phenomenal universe. So we can't point these people out from a distance. Something happens from within them.

and it could take the announcing of that can take many forms it can be some people just become sick or they may have an accident or they may read a book or watch a movie or whichever way it can come and it may seem to be accidental

but I've come to see that there's a deep wisdom underlying all these superficial seemingly superficial or incidents and I say this because at some point left onto ourselves we would just drift

also through that field which is also much wider in its appeal than the physical world but there is some inner guiding that we may not be so conscious of it but it brings you to where you need to be and then there must come from you

once the taste as you've been touched by some taste then we will not need so much outer encouragement, the fruit of that taste will itself encourage you to go more deeply. That's just broadly speaking. I know in my own personal journey and many people that I speak to, whether there was a video they watched, somebody that they met, or just a natural uprising in oneself, they had that taste. They got to experience a reality within them that was more impactful, more real,

than anything in the sensory phenomenology. world. So as we dive deeper into the self, how does observing who we are not help us clarify and see who we truly are? Yes. That's quite a mature stage for many people. Yeah. There's such a powerful sense

and belief that we are our bodies and our personal identity. Another word we can use is ego, but we don't like to use that word too. We think ego is an attitude, but ego is a strong identity that we are this body and our conditioning. So we'll, for many people, we'll have to work with that, inside that paradigm first. At some point you'll come to, I'm much, again I come back to the point where you're not on your own. You're being led by some forces guiding you to work.

you to what each one need to find out. Even if you're not conscious of it, you'll find that your life takes a turn here and there. And it is to bring you to what this life was meant to experience. And ultimately, I feel, to wake up to the reality of who you truly are beyond the conditioned mind and identity that is formed in this world. Yeah, I love what you shared before about how life takes care of life. Yes. And I feel that many people don't.

But nonetheless, it does feel like it is the reality. As we start to dive deeper into who we're not, one way in which people really identify with themselves is through their own thoughts. They feel that they are their thoughts, very strongly. These thoughts that are arising out of an identity structure, and it's who they perceive to see themselves as in the world around them. So for most people, that's a very foreign idea

that I'm not these thoughts in my eyes. ahead. Yeah. So starting there, how can you share that we are not our thoughts in the process of disidentifying with them? Okay. Well, you cannot be, actually, I'll go more than that, more than thoughts, you know, whatever you perceive, whatever you experience comes and goes.

You cannot be that because when they appear and we are engaged with them, they feel very real and very present and belonging to us. But then they move on and they come and they go and if you were that when they go as they do and they must you would also be gone

but something is here to witness here that's over the wasness of it everything comes and goes so I liken it that the deeper being the deeper awareness is a bit like the infinite sky And our thoughts and experiences are the clouds floating by.

And from an seemingly external perspective, it feels like, yeah, there's all these skies like the skies like that. But from behind the clouds in the vastness is untouched by them. And from that perspective, nothing sticks. Everything is floating by. as a momentariness about them. So at some stage as we deepen and mature into a real understanding, a real seeing, it becomes automatically more clear

that it is like that. And so the tendency to cling to thoughts or ideas or philosophies or whatever, it gradually lightens up and more distances felt. We can begin to experience or perceive or the world with more detachment, which is quite a healthy thing, actually.

We are suffering from an overload of attachments to things which are ephemeral by nature, including the very idea of who we are, is ephemeral. That's always changing also. So it must be something deeper than the layer of condition that we accept to be the evidence of ourselves. That is also floating by. Nothing sticks in this.

There is something though must be there to recognize nothing sticks. Earlier I gave the example because someone had asked, you often use the word like consciousness and beingness, but we are not able to relate to these times. We don't have an image of that. Could you give us a practical guide to help us to understand what you mean when you say consciousness and so I gave the example that if I'm doing this with my hand like that, no?

I'm aware and you're aware this movement is happening, but is my awareness doing this? I said, no, no, I'm aware, but the awareness is not doing the hand is doing this. If I change it like this, is the awareness changed? No, it is unmoving. supposing this represented our thoughts also they come and go is my awareness of them different is same

there's a stillness from where we gauge the movement of life and the world of thoughts and people and things and ideas they appear and they may seem to be enticing for our soul for a while but they drift on and even the person we once thought we are

or were, that also, that shape cannot be held. Everything becomes recognized as phenomenal and ephemeral. And that there must be something that recognize that which is changeful. So whatever you can recognize, whatever you can perceive, cannot be you that which perceive it. You see? Now, that doesn't sink immediately, many people because of this very strong idea that, no, no, no, but I see all these things,

but I want to be able to become more knowledgeable or more grounded in this. But even that standpoint of identity, one day is like this, another day also change. There is what I'm pointing to it, there's a deeper nature in us that does not fluctuate. It's ever present, I call it. that field of consciousness. I just indicated or referred to that from the place where the example of his awareness moving,

like the hand is moving. I said, no, that's stillness. And yet we give very little attention to that. And yet this is at the very heart of self-discovery, you see? Yeah. Because there is an idea that we can learn everything. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, everything is attainable. Right. But even the very, faculty that enables things to be perceived and understood, that also is not permanent. If memory is the medium that holds the information, the information about the world and life, that also is fatable.

That also is not stable. There's something beyond even this also. Because we can say that, you know, the memory itself is, memory also is going you can say you can go to a doctor

and say my eyesight in this eye is out of like 65% and this high is only like 25%. So something sees the ability to see and the ability

lessened by something that an intelligence is seeing this also and it's seeing that moods come and go, thoughts come and go, feelings come and go. Even if each one was given the opportunity to write a synopsis

or something about a life history and autobiography, I'm sure if you had to keep doing this for over three years, it will keep on changing. It's nothing solid, you see. So the word you used earlier was self-discovery. And I feel it's really beautiful to switch from that paradigm of thinking that,

because we're under the presumption that if we want to become more in life, we have to get more, right? We achieve more, we accumulate more, and you're saying actually to discover more of yourself, it's a process of realization, discovery, not achievement, attainment. I feel that certain things we have to go through. We have to try it to see if we find fulfillment in things

or in praise or in wealth or in fame or whatever. God gives space for that. We must try. So that when you leave it, you can leave it authentically. So I wouldn't put anything in the way of that will go. At a certain point, it comes a time when we are right and ready. We may not even be aware of that. But this is why I say that something is taken care of each farm, each soul.

a journey like that. You may have all this knowledge available to you at some point, but you will not be ready for it until you are ready for it. Part of me on my own path has really wanted to, you know, support people on realizing that path and for myself at times really wanting it. Yes. And at the same time, it feels like it happens in perfect harmony with when it's supposed to. Would you say that? Yes, I do. I agree. Yes. So then can we do things to quicken our awakening or is it really just awakening happens as it should, as it's supposed to?

It's not so accidental in some way. We are always doing something to, you know, your intention is very important. If the intention is, I want to know more, I want to grow more, or even could be, I want to dissolve more from all these ideas that are so cherished but they're not bearing fruit. Help me to be, to unplug from them, you see? You find your way gradually. You find often your way by finding what is really not your way anymore.

We outgrow certain kind of practices, and it becomes more, we feel pulled in a certain direction that your mind may not consciously recognize, but turns out to be fruitful. And like this, it helps us to grow in faith. and to trust more, that there is some power that is watching out for you in that way. As you get more mature,

it becomes much more easy to see this and to your advantage also, you don't stand in your own way. I definitely feel like at times I stand in my own way and the memory of personhood slips back in unconsciously, right? And so, you know, for my own path and for the listeners tuning in, how, you know, for the desire and the intention to want to identify and see and operate from

the pure witness and to know that as who we are more throughout our days, Sri Nisar Gatada says we're looking for the house, never having left home. Yes. And Francis of Assisi says the place we're looking for is the place we're looking from. Yes. This pure witness deep within, I taste it, I get more and more moments of it. but for what to do when you know you slip into those unconscious ways

and the memory of who we have been is stroke you know that conditioning is very strong all of it is included in the journey all of it is slipping back and there is something in it sometimes we may imagine that we have left something

but it's still more to come so the great consciousness brings you back sometimes failure is part of succeeding just in the same way like sickness can be a part of health also. So these things, we must not lament too much about them, you know. The key is to persist and to always hold high thoughts about it, you know. It cannot be more mainly about knowledge in that way.

The knowledge must combust into actual experience. It must bear fruit in that way. and it's only then that it becomes alive. It cannot be alive only informationally. It has to somehow be transformative. You will feel the change in your life, deep within, not just externally, but you'll experience deep within.

And these are not changes that can be gauged by scientific study. It's just more intuitive. As the intuitive areas in your life open, your capacity to perceive in ways far beyond the earlier stages are growing and they are full of joy. It's a joy when we are coming to see the things that are beyond the common mind to intuit in that way. It's a great beauty and it's all in you. It's all just waiting to be discovered more and more. we must overcome the influence of the psychological identity.

But it takes time. And so I can't say that it will take the same time for everyone. Some people take to it much, much more quickly, you see. The more concepts we have, the more complexity and the more difficulty will experience. Actually, in the end, we transcend the realm of concepts, actually. The concepts are only guides along the way. You come back to yourself, which is really beyond the,

you're not just, truth cannot be some treasured bundle of concepts. All this you will leave. All this you will leave. And if we trust in knowledge deeply, some fear will come. Even to transcend our present state of identity, takes some courage, you see, because always the fear is that

I'm going to lose something of value, but there's nothing of greater value than your own being. We're using the word value because it's beyond value. It's just true.

Would you assert any qualities to that place within us in terms of what it's like or maybe the fragrances of what comes out from it? The perfume of it or fragrance is peace and a falling away of fear. a deep joy, an expansion in love, wisdom, spontaneous existence.

The falling away of judgments is very beautiful. That's just a perfume. But the flower no one can see phenomenally. In fact, you cannot experience yourself. This is a very strange one to say. You can experience the sense of otherness. But the singularity in you, you cannot experience, you can only be. But we may say, but I only, I love the taste of things,

experience is to taste things, to taste otherness. And yes, it's beautiful to taste a sense of otherness. But when you find that which is not fitting in the category of otherness, then your joy is complete. You see, it's not a difference. easy to try and explain that in a mental way, because the mind works in duality, one thing against another, subject and object,

you and me, this and that, and that's fine, because that does not need to dry up completely, it can be there, but it is experienced in a new light in a different way, as just a dance of God or consciousness. It's so, I mean, I'm so happy when I speak about this because I'm happy because I feel I have nothing burdensome to share with another human being, that it is really fun to work with God

and to discover yourself. In the beginning, ah, because, you know, the old identity is almost like it doesn't want to move, although it doesn't really exist, you know. It exists only through thought. But when the courage is, you know, also grace brings courage also. an intuition, the sense that there's more, there's more beyond this. You feel it to us.

Do you feel like that space within us is the same within everybody and is what people mean when they refer to God? Yes. Everyone, not only human beings also, in every living thing. I feel the joy and the beauty when you talk about this space because of how intimate you are with the space and how much it's impacted your life. the presence that you carry in that realization

then becomes the invitation for so many people to touch that space within themselves. And I'm excited to continue to talk about this space. As we desire to touch more of that space, it feels as though we have an investment in who we have been, an investment into personhood and identity. And it's tough to let that go because we've spent so much of our life

being somebody who are not. And it's hard to let that go. So how do you support people and letting go of that perceived investment? They have to have a taste of that which is beyond everything you have possessed so far. They have to have it, you see. It cannot just be merely promises. They have to have a taste of it. You see?

Sometimes I say at a certain point you want more knowledge, but I bring you fire. and the fire you is deeper than knowledge you have to be set on fire it's a beautiful fire it takes you beyond everything because really you may start

with a sense of touching you know sort of like a taste of the infinite but it will not be enough for you at some point you want to be totally consumed in it and then the courage to to let go. You said very beautifully,

you described the state very beautifully, because at some point, the sense that I want this, but not at the expense of all that I have gained, you know?

That's valuable. It just comes to mind when sharing, I say, supposing a very evolved being appear to you, and say, my dear Andre,

I know you're longing in your heart now. And I have come to answer that longing in you. Whatever is your highest, your deepest, whatever you want, in all of creation, in all of the universe, whatever you want, I have the power to give it to you right now. But there's one thing.

All this you can have, whatever you can have, you can have in exchange for your consciousness. Anything, anything you want. How big a, how greater deal is that for you? It's a bad deal. Yes, there's no deal. Because how can you enjoy or to taste or to know or to feel or to exist or to be even self-aware without consciousness?

It is at the root of all things. You see, there's nothing. can compare even to enjoy the mundane things of life you need consciousness but

there's a saying we want to taste the honey you don't want to be the honey but here you get to taste the honey

and you are the honey I love it I want to keep tasting this I would keep tasting the honey

as well for the listeners is there something that you can share to help us go a little bit deeper and to the stuff to taste it more. Yes, yes, I like that. I like that we come to a point beyond just question and answers.

I can introduce just a simple guidance for those who want to experience it, but without trickery. And that is what I share, and that, you know, if I were to say to you, If someone were to come and ask me, I hear that you can help people to go beyond superficial life and mind. I wish to go beyond because my mind and life has become so complex. It's so uncontrollable.

And I feel now I'm suffering it. Can you help me to go beyond all of this? And I would say, yes, let's try and see if you are earnest, why not this very day you can do. And so I'd say, I can share with you a simple guidance that will happen with you for a few moments. And it will start like this. If I were to ask you, if you want to go beyond all of this,

in a safe way I would say for the duration of my sharing with you and guidance with you would you be willing to leave everything of past just for the duration of our talk

is it just for duration after you can take the back we'll do the rest of my life okay let's see let's see let's see I only ask this just for the time that we are sharing to say that everything to do with past what brought you to this point

to all of these things. We can just if you agree, can we just not mention that, don't hold it, don't cling to it. Just leave it over there, leave it to the side. And also I'm going to just check in with you to ask if you're on board with this or not. You can also indicate because it's only fair.

So everything to do with the past, what brought you to your present journey, all of this, your family life growing up, can we just leave that just for a few, for the short time we're speaking, leave that. So that's there. And anything to do with the future, starting from now onwards,

that we will not engage about, you know, the kind of world we want to see, want to see this happen in the world, we want this, just leave that for now. So of the past we leave and about future we leave. So only a present moment, the present moment. And the present moment, we also don't hold onto any thoughts about who we are in this moment. And even what you want and how you, nothing.

Is it possible to do that? Yeah. Really? Okay, good. Then we're doing good. So to the past we leave for a moment, we don't mention now, just for this. just for this five minutes or ten minutes, whatever. And about future, also you leave it, and about the present moment, whatever that may mean. So we're not going to engage with anything to do with mind assessments for a moment.

So empty, empty, empty, empty. And it's not difficulty. Your intention is at the heart of it. I won't engage with that. I won't bring up this. So if you leave about the past, to the side and about future to the side and now we're sitting here under this beautiful tree

don't even bring any of these things so we're empty you're still aware isn't it so leaving all these things aside so empty empty if I could say through some invisible hole in your body

took everything out everything of the past, the memory of feeling, sensations, everything, everything, everything, all attachments, all projections, all ideation, just suspend them out for a moment. There will remain something that cannot be taken, cannot be manipulated. It's just there, it's just whatever is here. Cannot be created or constructed. It's just what is. I call it the is-ness or what is.

here, no association with past or future or even present. Nothing phenomenal to the senses or to the mind. There is awareness here. And so then I can ask you just a few simple questions. You can answer yes or no. Don't have to think, think about it. They should be very present with you when you're not engaged with past or future

or any present desires, but you're here. This space, let's call it like that, the space that is here, does it have any shape? Is there any shape? No. No. No. Whatever it is that is here that remains,

is there any force? No. Whatever it is that we are, that is here, Can it be ever sick, depressed? No. Past is it? Can there be a boundary beyond which it does not exist? Can there be any limit?

Not that I can see. Very good. Is it a thought? Does it have a beginning, a point of beginningness, or a place of ending? Is it anything like this? No. in itself

can it fade like as this play of time goes it disappears or becomes weak would that be true can it fade no

is it a state of hypnosis no judgments in it can it be owned by some people and not by others no I don't think so I'm back to the point, is it an image?

No. No. No. Okay, so the question comes, was it born? No. The mood exists outside of it? Be lost. No.

Can they be possessed? No. How far apart from you is it? It's not far. It's right here. It's right here. So I'll just summarize. I ask you if it is an object, you say it's not an object.

I ask, has it got a size? I mean, is there some boundary beyond which it does not exist? You say, no, it is, there's no such thing. I ask you, can it become sick? You say no. I ask you, is it a state of hypnosis? You answered, no. I ask you, can it be, is there any judgment in it?

You said there's no judgment. Can it be owned? You say, no, it cannot be owned. Can it be lost? Exists outside of it, you say. Then I ask you, how far is it from you? You say, you know, you say, it's here. You didn't seem to need some time to think about these things.

There's something very immediate in your responses. So I would only conclude that when What you are aware of when we are speaking about is yourself. Is the truth of it itself? Can it be sick? No. Can it die? It's not fit into the range of mental descriptions.

It's not there. And yet you don't have to research. There's something so clear in all of this. We're imagining this. The conclusion is you're sharing your fundamental nature, forgotten. No. As I promised,

you can retain all the things you left aside. The ideas that we had before, you can leave by the future, desires, and so on. You can have, enjoy. Can they replace or remove

this? No. No. Thank you. That's very beautiful. Yes. So this is a simple exercise in very short. I don't even want to call it a meditation. We may call it a guided meditation.

But the seeing is your own, confirm from your own self. And if we don't add any thought to that, don't push anything. How are you? Yes, if I were to say, nice to meet you, what would it mean? There's something inherently liberating

about touching a place that feels imperishable, that feels like it's can't die. Yes. It feels like... It is. You choose in your seeing, you see. Yeah. I mean, it seems like or it is for you.

Maybe someone else cannot verify for you. But in your own seeing, something is here that underlies the phenomenal universe, the realm of thought and feeling of ideas and projections and all of this, it is here independent of them. But they cannot exist independent of it. It is the support, the root, or they may call it the very ground of being. And in that arises a self-image, an identity,

that dances in this also. But it is perceived. Everything is perceived in this. to appear to disappear, to come, to go, to arise, to subside. But does this suffer from the effects arising in it, so would you say that the more that we touch this space,

the more frequently that it'll just be our present reality and it's not something we have to go back to, the more we taste it, the more it's... That is called true sadana, which means that, you know, you authentically, because sometimes people have come to this, just like this. Then a few moments later a day, fear comes from the mind.

It will come. It's like, oh, you're taking away my treasures, or whatever it may form it may take. I said, that's okay, expect that that will come. That will also come and go. Can this come and go? Now you are conscious of consciousness. You see?

And to sit with this, if you have come to that place of recognition, I only encourage you sit with this, learn to abide with this, because it's as though the mind force is going to come to distract the attention, to say, yeah, you're late in these things to do, we kind of hang around, being...

You have to face that. And see that that is just apparent. It's not real. But you don't have to give up life and go live in a mountain. No, life flows on. But it is flowing within this. It is flowing within this space of being. And you are here.

You are the flow and you are the witness of the flow also. The flowing is changeful. It's the dance of life. It is fine. Where is yesterday? Apart from perhaps some subjective ideas of the content of what you're tasted. Who can

lean back and take a piece of yesterday and say, look, I've got the evidence of yesterday. Everything is like this, is fine. Except this. What is yesterday for this? What is tomorrow for this? But not everyone is ready to look at this

because fear comes and fear is the gateway to both freedom and bondage. something feels like a existential thing that I'm going to get cancelled or something I said no however many layers you may peel off you will always be you just more full more complete more broad more true more stable but the mind says no you're losing all that you have earned and I say, please show me what you have heard. So there is a thing where we are getting better, growing more and more, getting better and better,

or another way is that somehow we are unbecoming what we are not. Some wrong ideas we have about ourselves. And in the discovery, you alone will taste and see if it is good or not. Is there some trick in this? And who will benefit? Is there some trick? in this awakening. Does it mean, oh, give up this,

give up your career? Not at all. I don't see. It all arises in this. And if there is something to move into higher ground with, it will manifest within you. It feels like this, of course,

if it's our true self can be brought, wherever we go, it feels like, you know, this carries with us. And I'm feeling into those who maybe appear or think of spirituality or, you know, from the outside

and perceiving, touching this place means a lack of involvement from the world that you have to, like, detach from the world. But you're somebody that's incredibly involved with the world. And so I'd love for you to speak to how the sense of freedom, it changes how you relate to everything around you, the people, the relationships, but it doesn't mean that you're outside of the world all of a sudden,

but that you're fully here and present with it in a different way. Yes. We relate completely differently. I'm not a prisoner of the world, not a prisoner of my mind. It comes, thoughts come, feelings come, but they've seen that they come and go. They cannot carry off what is fundamentally here.

And actually the life is so much more harmonious and peaceful. And, yeah, some people may experience it to be challenging because there's a fear underlying the sense of personhood. Like a fear of extinction. Because that's what that state offers. That's not what your true nature offer. This is why I ask, you know, was it born, can it die?

Something can die. The body will pass. But this will never pass. It has never passed. There's no date in it. And even also the exercises that people are getting used to, it's not like, let's come, give me everything you have and then stand over there.

No, I say, no, no, just leave it aside and learn to look independent of the things that arises. You learn to look and see that without you, none of this has any meaning at all. And you, when I say without you, without you being what? Consciousness, your consciousness, appearing inside a farm but not losing

the belief in our identity in some way creates a veil that seems to cover or hide the deeper reality of who you are. People need not be afraid still fear will come. Fear is part of life and

it will accompany you until you transcend it. I don't say to fight fear and fight. No, if you Fight fear, you just become a fighter of fear. And the mind grows with resistance also. It's an illusion that we have to feel that, yes, you know, I mean, I'm going to lose everything.

What is the thing that you have gained? I have nothing against the world. Everything in the world is fine. But our attitude to it and who we take ourselves to be with it is where the pollution begin in it. Do you have moments where you, at this point, forget that you are that. and identify with thoughts and fall back into personhood? Do you experience that?

I can identify with thoughts and experience personhood without forgetting myself. It's a funny thing to say, when I say forgetting myself, forgetting myself. Because, you know, I think you passed one thing up there

where we say, I am before the idea came to me that I need to remember myself or that I could forget myself was believed. I am, that I amness is this.

So within that I'm not, oh, you know, I made a mistake. No, no, this can happen. But something pure inside you kind of autocorrects things in a different way, not in a religious way, not in a kind of judgmental way.

Just it's like somehow it realigns itself inside the harmony so it is why it's so difficult to write about because in each way it has this unique way so as I go back to Los Angeles

so we're all living our lives I taste this place within myself more and more and at times my mind falls back into judgment it falls back and my desire my intention is I want to see people truly as they are like trees like beings of their own that is my ultimate desire with us but sometimes the

conditioning of my mind pulls me back into even going on like silent retreat and I sit next to somebody and they keep coughing every five minutes or you know something happens in the mind's like oh you know I wish it was different way trying to change circumstance to my own liking there's this feeling of self-righteousness you know and so is it then just practicing coming back to that place over and over again or is there a way to cut through deeper. We don't need to practice becoming better at this and better at that and be more tolerant of people and so on. Because there's no end to that, no.

If you come to the fundamental principle, you see, of seeing that everything that appears is appearing through the mind in true form and are perceived in you, you are the witness to them. And first, that's a very important stage, one of the most primary stages in self-discovery is to function as a detached weakness to things. Learn that.

That's not judging things, it's just recognizing that the witness is not the thing witnessed, and experience this, check in with that, that is. And that also, a very important point, is that the mind, and its world and the one who suffers it or is attached to it

are both like two sides of one kind they're phenomenal which means that the person you have identified yourself to be is also something phenomenally watchable from that deeper place of distattach witnessing if that becomes clear for you a lot of things start to autocorrect

a lot of you don't emerge all your energy in things which are just superficial and very subjectively perceived you become more anchored in the root consciousness these are simple things

but so profound you see and what I say I use the word autocorrect because what happens is that as you as you it's like things are brought to your attention

more and more and then you can offer them up to say, I wish to offer this. I see this is not in support of the truth I am. You can just offer. It can be gently, need not be brutal. It can be and pleasurable also. It's not, oh, I'm giving up all my sweeties

and why does God have to take it? I said, this is not true. This is a false kind of religious views. It's not like this. The universal consciousness is, in you. It loves you. It loves being you. But it also has a journey

to make and it transforms a journey the more the heart opens up and become aware of it. It works and to take you back to your original nature. Because you're growing towards that. First, all human beings are in search of something. They don't know what it is.

I say you're in search of this. But until you're clear about it, it appears to be the good job and great relationship and the money and the fame and the da-da so we have to work through some of these things but at some point

you see nothing is wrong with the money nothing wrong with the family these can all be there they are not the problem it's what you take them to be in you that becomes a problem you see so all these things

God made them but now you must be wise in our relationship with them because all of them are only of significance to you. All these things they come and go. Something in this universe

and it's in you that does not come and go. The real challenge and the life is to find that. Stop fighting the world, find that one. It is here and it is you. Yeah, there's something within me, I feel within us all that seeks for that, like a pleasant experience

a pleasurable experience of life and look through it and try to find it through the senses and the external world and the relationships. I love how you shared the person and the person who judges, for example, are two sides on the same coin. Yes.

And I would love for you to share a little bit more of how when there's not such a strong sense of self, then consciousness does it. When you say self, you mean personal self? Personal self, yeah. Personal self, the lowercase. then consciousness doesn't waste its energy as much recording things on a personal basis. That is true.

Totally, totally. We waste a lot, we hemorrhage a lot of energy on very ephemeral. Experiencing. Keeping score. Yes, yes, because that's important. That's how the nature of personhood works like that. As to compare, as to be better, as to like this.

But it can seem, It became normalized and it can seem right, but it's not loving. It's not kind. It's not generous. It's not wise. It's fearful. And that's why it's always on the move. Because no state is deeply satisfying to him, you see.

It's the next thing, the next thing. But as soon as you come to the stand on the ground of your being, you see, all those those obsessions, those absurdities, that cruelty, that self-cruity begin to dissolve by itself. You don't have to go and bury them in the bush behind the tree. They just dissolved because they were not real. This is what happens here because sometimes people come, they say, oh, my mind is so strong, Babaji, and I never slept last night. And it's torturous and so on, no?

And now with my more mature students, I tell them, go sit now. Okay, do the exercise I give you now. Just go sit. And I've had people who have known for years struggling, oh, Babaji, I try to do this exercise, I'm doing breathing exercise, I'm doing prana yam. Sit and do what I tell you. Do ten minutes now.

Just let that be and stay in the place of the impersonal weakness. Stay in the sense of being. And every time you're going to find it very difficult for us, because the reflex is to go back into the mind. And each time, don't fight, don't judge, just bring it back into the neutrality of just impersonal consciousness. Keep doing, keep doing. In a short space of time, they're going,

I could show you so much sharing from people. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Because I'm not afraid anymore. Even when that one lady from India just sent a message, says, I've got stage four cancer, everything in my body is going, Babaji.

But I am not worried at all. I am just so alive. And you can hear it like this. Because she's found that timeless awareness within herself. Why I am so happy about it? Because it's not a gamble. You give me this, I give you that. I said, no, no, leave that bear.

Look from here, but look with detachment. The attachment is one of your superpowers. You don't use it. So that habitual tendency for attachment, you know, when we touch the impersonal place within us, like we're speaking to, how we relate to everybody around us fundamentally changes, right? It's a sharing of joy, not an extraction of joy.

and for romantic relationships, I want to ask you because there is this, you know, operating from this place that's impersonal and that is like free within ourselves is so foreign to how most people are used to relating within other human beings and especially romantic connections. In Buddhists, they have the term Tanha,

which is like a clenching motion. So it's like attachment, but Tanha is more like clenching and grabbing and wanting to hold because it builds our sense of self and so when we're touching the true self and we're operating from the real self that doesn't need the other person but gets to share the joy

I would love for you to share how the difference in relating from this place and... Beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful. We think that somehow clinging and it's how it's meant to be but it's very costly

so it's full of pain because there's no trust also. And especially if you're beginning to explore these parts together, whoa, it's too good. It's too good, it's too good. You see? We have a lot of nonsense ideas about love and how much me. It's a lot built on insecurities

and the need for someone else to make you feel. secure. And of course if someone breaks the trust, if some hurt is there, but not devastation is not there. You're much more in tune. You can love more freely when it's not a need, when you're not desperate. Like I say, you should only be desperate for freedom. I say, when you're curious, you learn, when you're desperate, you discover, you know. But in a relationship, we come into that, you bring that. And not just, you say intimate relationship, romantic relationship, in a way I'm going to be daring, say something is just coming up now.

I've never said this before. Every relationship is a romantic relationship. Every relationship is a God relationship, actually. You understand? That's how love come. When I say intimate, I don't mean sexually sexually, I'm just saying that the intimacy that we experience, and I would like somehow, you know, you guys can be here,

little bit in Sahaja, just see all people are. It's just so more natural, natural way. And of course, always learning. Sometimes selfishness comes. Sometimes different things come. But something is there to say,

you know, you know that doesn't serve you, you see. But it becomes a joy. It's not like, oh, if I do this, I get into trouble, but it becomes more joy. You know, it's a joy in giving. I don't know, it sounds, I'm listening, maybe it sounds a little bit, I don't know, I don't know how it sounds,

but you know, it's not how it sounds, it is. Yeah. You see, how it is. You discover expressions within yourself that we have long been in denial of them, unaware of them, of your capacity to give and the joy of letting go of things,

you know. If you could collect everything in the world, everything in the world. And if you could let go of, and this one let go of everything in the world, he'll be much happier.

If you hold everything in the world, every, you have everything, you'll be a miserable person. The next one, he lets go of everything in the world, everything, including himself. And you will not,

and you meet God. Yeah, that rings so true in myself. like just removing the barriers between truth between two people and with that there's an intimate real connection you can really be with the presence of another being and doesn't mean romantic sexually but of course you cannot force you may have this openness and maybe that's not mutual there's a wisdom there yeah you see there's a wisdom there and that's very important you must always give space to the person if you feel

a lot of love, you love from a distance, you bless from a distance. They not even need to know that comes from you. So we're here, I want to ask, like, as you grow on your journey, how do you see others navigate how they relate to their own sexuality

in particular? Because we have this human biological technology that is wired to procreate and how do you relate to how you use your own sexual energy or navigate that on the process of waking up to who you truly are.

My life doesn't belong to me like that. You understand? Like I'm governing what I do. I find that something releases from the tensions of giving attention to so many things. It manifests very spontaneously. And there's no greater joy than spontaneous existence. planned existence is highly overrated

you're finding there's so much there's so much in you there's so much in you there's so much of you you're so powerful so beautiful but we cramp our energy by trying to standardize

and to somehow strategize we just cramp you cramp your style you see yeah yes Yes, we do all the time. Yeah. Yeah, let it flow.

Let it flow. So like the sexual energy in particular, you know, if you have urges or you're saying to allow the spontaneity of how it wants to express itself? No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's hold around a little bit there. Cut C and I'm humping a tree three minutes later. What I really mean is... I know there's a part of the mind that wants to take that and say, whoa, you say like, you know,

hooray and boogdo-bo-d-do-b-do-do-do-no. No, I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, there's a wisdom that comes with it because also the human being has to learn to, you know, understand those appetites, that they're not always, the mind makes a lot of them through its own, through its own, you know,

through its own, to fulfill its own projection, its own weaknesses also. So I don't want to say that. I mean, of course, we are free to make all the mistakes in the world. And you're free to be free and you're free to be bound, no? We must learn that, and must approach it with some respect also. But that respect need not, at first, we are going to be very animal in our behavior. We pass many of those stages.

But as you grow, some refinement come and a higher way comes. And more respect comes and more respect comes, and more appreciation comes. And it doesn't dampen that because the joy that comes from addiction and the joy that comes from freedom is very different. You know?

So, you know, I had to hold you back there a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And it's a good question. It's a good question because many people feel like, yeah, so basically, it's just set it free. And it's not free. It's not free. I've heard of some, also some communities like that

that, you know, they explored all these things and, you know, like someone who was married but wanted, but this person wanted to have a more kind of, I don't know, they called it like free interactions with other people and was encouraging, like, say, his wife to do this, but she was not comfortable with that.

She tried, you know? And they even came here to this place. They came here also. And he was speaking, like representing her like we. But she found courage here to say, no, it's not we, is he. He's more like this.

I'm not like this. And so we could talk about it came actually. So that I've, in my view, that had a good ongoing outcome because some space was given to understanding that you cannot impose your own will. There's so much sexuality.

sexuality, sexual sex is also a beautiful thing. Like everything else in the life can be. Can be. Everything can be. And everything we learn from, bitter or sweet, we can learn from them. But we must have respect and not exploit. You know, sometimes we don't know the difference.

So everything is in a movement of ascending. You know? It has to be that. Otherwise, we don't reach that level of fulfillment which life offers. But it's not so... But we have to go through all these things. I'm not a strong moralist, you should not do, no, no.

But I said, no, you can learn, but also move on from certain things grow. I don't even find myself saying this to people. I don't think I need to do that, because they're finding out for themselves that, no, no, this is not really what I want. I thought this is what I want. And I'm so sorry I made it.

I said, no, no, no. learn from your mistakes rather than lose energy feeling sorry that does not help you learn from them and move is this good yeah yeah yeah the joy that comes from bondage versus freedom right i think the trouble is that people are in stages of bondage that they are labeling freedom yeah and with the maturity you come to see these things the every genuine urge in you to find truth it brings so much blessing in other ways that you're growing in multidimensional ways really in a way that the state of personhood cannot do by itself

you're working in harmony with the universal consciousness Yeah, it's like that difference between freedom being perceived as I can just do whatever I want whenever I want versus freedom from the urge to be anywhere other than where you are Yes. That feels like what you're speaking to. Yes, yes. We must try that one.

You must try it if I'm just. Let me just do what I do. We try that until you start to pay attention that it hurts. Not just others, you get hurt also by it, you know. But we have to try out things. I think the earth is a very experimental place. You have to try out a lot of things. But you don't have to experience everything.

Right. You can be wise. You learn something, and it gives you access to a lot of things in a good way. I love the thread that we're on of relating to the world from this place from within. Another one that I want to speak to is how we relate to praise

and blame from the outside world. Yes. Because when we don't have this strong sense of a lowercase self that we're referring ourselves to, then even when somebody shares something beautiful it's like who is there to receive it in a way

but it can still be reflected and received beautifully. But sometimes I struggle even receiving positive. The negative ones don't really bother me as much. I know a lot of people struggle with the negative blame and hate that comes their way. And so how does how we relate to praise and blame change as we tap into this space within, you know, how we relate to it? The life shifts from person to presence. In the paradigm of person, we are very insecure, actually. The state of personhood is a mode of consciousness, but it's very shaky, very

insecure, no? And it needs to be encouraged and reminded and appreciated, no? That's how the ego identity works. And it works for that on many levels. Even sometimes when it fights against it, it still values that. And that's a stage that we will live within that paradigm for a while, but that will gradually also change. But as that shift occurs from the state of person to presence or presence beingness, there's a stage beyond presence beingness, the stage of absoluteness. You see?

But for me, the real citizen of the earth is presence, not person. As you move more into the state of presence, then these things are not so important for you. Praise, people praise, oh, thank you so much, you did so much for me. But it's a kind of neutrality,

there's a field of neutrality in you. It's very sensible, you know, and it can feel happiness for others it can feel when something comes and it's sincere and it has an integrity in it and it appreciates that but it doesn't fall for flattery and also no one can flatter God

so in the same way those who are searching for truth they're not easily, don't buy for flattery for a while we'll enjoy it of course it's good to feel appreciated but also flattery is very sometimes very manipulative, you know, ways.

So there's something that becomes very even-minded. And it might seem to someone who's very excitable to be a bit more boring because you're not sort of like jumping around, you know. But later they will come to you and sit with you and say, you know, please help me. I got, you know, I really got stung because I invested so much emotional, you know,

sort of investment in this relationship or whatever because they said all these wonderful things to me and basically, you know, like I went for it and now I'm just, well, so then you become more open to learn when you're hurt by mistakes and you don't become resentful. It's always good to have someone you can share with because if you don't, you can become very resentful. That's beautiful, that shift from person to presence and, you know, because I'm sure many times people come up to you and share really beautiful reflections of how you've changed their life fundamentally. And it's like receiving from the heart.

when it's coming from the heart versus the flattery is like you said, I love how you broke that down of how it can be very manipulative. Yes, and I don't change their life. They change their life with my support. They change because they made those choices

and I only support that and say, you know, this is good and try this. And, you know, they changed their life. So the more that we're touching this formless place within ourselves, it feels like there is more harmony and there's a natural sense of well-being. And like we spoke to earlier, life takes care of life.

Yeah, why do you feel like the more that we tap into our true self, the more wealth, happiness, health, abundance, like these things start to become more of our reality. Is it simply in accordance with that energy? It can be for some, you know, for others, you know. You know, like I say sometimes, there is a wealth in poverty and there's a poverty in wealth. There are no fixed standards like that.

You know, for some, if you, whoa, my life is so abundant, abundant. Later that abundance can also change and become very, you know, not really, you know, it's like I can't judge who is true around me anymore. I don't know who is really friend and so on. And for others, you know, their wealth is in just, is in emptiness. And that's not easy for many people to appreciate it when you're in the, brought up in a very materialistic culture. But it's not that it's snatched away from you necessarily, no?

True wealth cannot be about things, because all of them will go. Even this body will go. You're something much more than this body. Something here that will not go. So use time to discover the timeless is my way of putting it. it. And that doesn't mean that you suspend the joy of life.

I don't think anyone is more having fun than a sage, actually. Yeah. When I think you see them, is it more fun than you? You're jumping out of airplanes without parachutes and stuff. As sage or an awakened being is having more fun than anybody. Not excited. It can be a little bit, but not like that. The joy of being, this.

you say you tasted it with me, this place. Go more deeply into it, stay with it and see what happened. I'm not telling you, you will change your life. Nothing, your life can be whatever. You can be an awakened being with the kingdoms, the King Janaka, the kingdoms. But he was not obsessed with any of that. Because he valued the thing that was the highest thing, you see?

So, yes, these things, about it. These things, abundance have different meaning for different people. Abundance can be abundance of love, of people who you trust, of people who you love, of people you admire, it can be of just good health. One friend is here, you know, he said also, because his father was a very rich man, he passed his wealth unto him.

And he said, my father sacrificed, his health, he uses health to get his wealth. When he became wealthy, his wealth could not buy back his health. You understand? Now, so for him at some point, your health, whether it's physical health or your inner health of well-beingness, anything on any planet can compare with your inner state of being. but each one must come to that for themselves

what you value that is okay to God can give you this also but the things we want that are not your inmost being everything is only there's a stamp of time on everything and also the body that you need to enjoy them

also this evening you cannot keep but there's something that cannot leave you but it's good to be you have to be aware of it you're aware of it's a great, great, great. And of course, you know, why not wealth? It's okay. Why not things? Because they will not spoil you when you are aware of yourself.

Your wealth cannot spoil you. Your fame cannot spoil you. It doesn't matter. It's fine. All of this is okay. But if it's too important for you and the higher thing is not important, we will lose that.

It will seem like lose it. For some people, some losses are great gains. because it gives us access to something more real and more true. I love how you said the stages have the most fun, you know, because... I have to say yes. They are the happiest. They are happy being on earthly happiness also.

So do you feel it's possible and or inevitable to taste the bliss of self continuously throughout our life? Why taste? Why don't just have it? Why not be it? Yeah, to be the bliss of self continuously uninterrupted. It's a bliss, but I don't mean necessarily blest out.

Some people have thinking, yeah, this can come and go, that's okay. There's a bliss that doesn't necessarily show itself. You know, it's, you are bliss, you know. You are at bliss. You are that joy. It's there, you know. It's here.

It just has to be uncovered. You cannot do anything for it. You cannot make it, you cannot improve upon what is perfect. You can only discover that. You see? And just a little drop of that nectar. Nothing is wrong with anything in the world of itself. But our attitudes destroy so many things

in pursuit of gaining them. Yeah. You understand? It's okay. Do you feel as though life in the universe is conspiring for the self-remembrance? Because it feels like we spoke to earlier, there is an intelligence within life that is ultimately bringing us back home into ourselves. There's an intelligence that works for good and there's an intelligence that works for evil. I'll depend upon the choice the way we choose.

but it can seem like we speak about God where is he, where is he, what's going on but actually, you know, if you really want to find, you will find. We are actually living and experiencing our choices but we forget. There may not be choices, you say, I made this choice but in subtle ways we permit or we allow and so on.

So there are forms of our choices, you know. And I'd not say this in a blameful way, but we must be responsible and grow in wisdom. A human being should be growing in wisdom more and more. And as we get more old, we become more empty. Even a young person, also some, as they're getting more empty. Empty in a good way. Empty is a good thing.

If you're going to be full of empty. Be full of things. You can't, and that kingdom is not easy to. Bowl of empty. I speak stupid things. No, I like that. It makes sense because we spoke to you. I felt that earlier, you know, it's completely empty and yet fully there.

Yes, fulfilled, yes. Yeah. So as we continue to touch in this place, it feels as though like our gifts or however life's intelligence expresses itself through us, uniquely, individually. some people have creative urges that come out big spurts of creativity some people it expresses maybe differently depending upon our temperament or can you know so what do you see what comes online for people

and in the different ways it comes online as you start to tap into this place it feels like life opens up and reveals a lot of gifts and challenges you have to learn how to take care of your gifts or they can turn out to be curses. I say this because actually to create is to be alive, isn't it? To create and to create beautiful things. This is the dance of consciousness.

It's doing it, no? But sometimes the ego take it. And then it spoils the beauty of it. There's so many wonderful things in the world. uncountable, wonderful things. We're like co-creators, creating, creating, and the joy of creating. I've spent much of my early life as an artist

and doing the different things, martial arts, and all different things and paintings and so on. And when I found, when I discovered doing this, I realized that all of all of the things all of my urges in life to create and to discover was all that I was searching for this. No? We were searching for this because it all came in the joy of this, no? But also many of the things that I learned

continue to serve me because they came from consciousness. They came and it's not like, you're going to destroy this, you know, many beautiful things that we do. sometimes the things you make are beautiful but your heart becomes ugly you understand it can be like this

the urge to create is a divine urge to create to create and to express but it must be but the ego must be transcended and then what you make becomes a divine

expression it definitely feels that's easy to fall into the trap of our gifts being done by us and then we identify with it and then you're saying kind of ruin the beauty of it in a way.

Yes, for a time, you know, I have space for people. I have space because we can't help it, you know? I had my time of making lots of mistakes also. You know, so I can't say, oh, you don't make it. No, sometimes you learn from mistakes.

You know, I don't encourage them, you know, but you can't help making mistakes. And so don't give yourself such a hard time about making mistakes. but more learned from them. You know, that way I would say. And your evolution will be speeded up a lot.

Someone who is kind of wise in their mistakes, you know. Everybody, I don't think as a human being, never made mistakes. You will make them. But once you become conscious of the cost of them, then you maybe make higher choices. I don't want to suffocate the urge in life. Sometimes you go down, then you go up, you know. It's all the down.

of it's all in the book of life. Because you spoke to the moment that where you really started to get in touch with this more, this self within you and I feel like... Actually, he got in touch with me. Yeah. And I feel as so many of us, this awakening comes by virtue of meeting individuals that really embody this, this. And for you, was it the Christian mystic that you first met that?

Would you share a little bit about that? Because I feel like that's really beautiful and the way it unfolded. Yes, I often share that because it's very important, you know, very important, I would not be here other than that. So in those days, I was working, making artwork and so on,

was getting ready to make an exhibition in my town in Brixton and London. And I came home and my partner there at the house, she said, oh, you know, earlier today, this guy came by, and African-Caribbean man came by, and he said, oh, you know, look, could I ask you who made that stained glass in the window?

Because you could see it was a modern piece, not an old piece. And she says, oh, my partner made it. And oh, I'd like to meet it because I also make stained glass. And I said, okay, that amongst other messages she gave. And I said, okay, we'll see. I didn't think much of it. But the evening came, and he did come back, and he introduced himself on Michael, and I saw the glass earlier.

I really wanted to meet you like this. But very quick, I said, please come in, come and have some tea and we had some tea. And then very quickly, he mentioned to me, look, I live in a church.

Yeah, I live around the corner. I said, I don't know a church around the corner, I'm a church. No, no, don't. He said, I live in a house on the ground floor, the small apartment there. but we use it like a church there.

So, okay, it's nice. And he told me, you know, I'm a Christian and so on. I'm quite comfortable with that to grow up in this, you know. But I liked him. I like his freshness, and he wasn't trying to work on me because I also was used to meeting a lot of Jehovah's weaknesses, you know, and they give you a hard time, you know, some stuff. But he was not like that.

He came, and we had some tea. and I just, I can't say why, I enjoyed his presence, his company felt fresh and likable, you know. And so he said, you know, I said, why do you drop by sometime? We live so close, come by, and he would come, and over a few weeks he would come, and we'll always end up talking about Jesus and his disciples,

and that was his obsession, that was his life, you know. But he was also an artist, and I was putting on an exhibition, I asked him to, would he want to participate in it? called five Caribbean artists, and he said, yeah, yeah, okay. He was not interested, you know, but he wanted to support me. And then he showed me some, first of all I showed me these huge charcoal drawings he made of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. I was very impressed with them.

So can I use this? Say, yeah, you can use them. So he stood by me with this exhibition, and then we kept on seeing each other. And then one evening he came, and we were like four of us in the sitting room of this house. I was living. We finished talking and he was about to leave. It was Sunday evening.

About 7 o'clock he was leaving. He said, okay, fine. And I said to him, Michael, next time you pray, will you pray for me? Just came like this, you know? And he says, yeah, but why not now?

So, wow, yeah, yeah. So I came over and I was sitting down, I stood up and he put his hand on my head. He started to pray. I don't remember what he prayed. But when he was finished praying, I came out and I said,

Lord, help me to find you. I need you in my life. Because we used to go to church and we had this. I felt just like this came. And then after he said, we finished this prayer, I said, thank you, Michael. And we went to the door, we had a hug. And said, look, man, thank you.

I love you. And thank you. And he says, yeah, bless you, bless you. They left. And another friend David, they left myself and this friend of her, Mickey, she was there. And I just felt so good. I felt very light, but just good, that was really, very good. I felt so good.

And I felt especially good, especially good in light. And I said, you know, I don't want to go for a walk. And I went for a walk, which I wasn't doing so much, went for a walk in this good, good feeling. I came back and the evening was closing down. It was sort of autumn in London. I said, I don't want to go to sleep. I want this to last as long as it can. If I go to sleep, I'm probably going to lose it in sleep.

So I stayed up. You couldn't hold it up. At some point I fell asleep until my bed, slept. In the morning early, I sort of woke up. and all I was aware of was this, it was a little split in the curtains and this beam of sun was coming into the window. And I found myself like,

looking all these little dust particles. Like I'd never seen the sun like this before. And I realized I was the same inside like I was, and I was just this, this amazing peace was there. And it's never gone away. away. You know? Yeah.

Everything changed. Everything changed. Everything started there. Very profound change. But between India and everything like this. It's just diversified in its expression.

Was the shift sharing your insight and sharing your gift, was there a moment in particular where you pivoted where you really decided, or was just a natural shift that came? Actually, you know, that ship happened in 1987 in London,

northern. And I lived in that space. I didn't go to India until 1993. So I was six years moving in this sort of space and like just

being in London but living in this inner oasis sort of feeling, you know? I used to go to the church he was going to but I didn't get on there too good. There was another preacher going there, but I was not comfortable with him because I found they were preaching against people, some people, you know?

I didn't like that. I was always more international in my way. So gradually from being in the heart of the room, I started to go by the door, then in the hallway, that by the front door and I left didn't go. And because I'd found that God was in here, and with me in here, like this,

in such a powerful way that I didn't feel to, I felt like I had to go through some indoctrination. I was not ready for that. So, yeah, it brought me here. Talking with you. Here we are. Did you feel your intuition guiding you in some way? Did you feel...

Yes, you can call it intuition, and I can call it the presence of God, you know? Just not in any... I didn't hear God speak to me in English saying, you know, I want you to go and do this. It was more true a sensitivity that... I just... Yeah.

But I was quite like that, you know? just moving more intuitively. To this day, it's like that. It's move like that. What you're sharing in your story, and your path is so beautiful, and it feels like for us all, it's inevitable coming back

into this realization in a way. It feels like it's... I love to think like that. I mean, we have to, at some point. Yeah. You know, not you have to, no, but you will. We will at some point.

I am... I feel that my life... by God's grace is to facilitate that. The way I'm permitted. And you feel as though some other people get in touch with this place and maybe they aren't facilitators of that but it expresses some other way, you know? If you find that you're a facilitator of that,

at some level. Some way. Just in your ordinary life doing, you know, everybody has to be a preacher or a teacher. Just your... And I love these... these meetings, people don't hold themselves to be anything. And they just radiate that beauty.

It's the same, it's the same. When I say beauty, I don't know, my way of beauty is very wide, you know. I mean, it's just a simplicity, a naturalness. I love people in their natural ways. I don't like contrivance. And fresh. fresh

natural yeah god is natural this feels like as the as you have bloomed as a being like the flower of muji has bloomed the fragrance of you carries everywhere you go and it's quite beautiful to be

in the in the ambiance of and it feels as though very much so in my time here at least as well that ambiance invites that. Yes. Inquiry. The same ambient will come from you. Same ambience in everybody.

It's not uniquely anyone. You know, it's the universal atmosphere. It's a universal presence, you know. Being set free, you know, in a way being set free. I mean, somehow that which we're not is just quietly, in some way, sometimes not always quietly, but it's dissolving somehow. It's melting back into our original light and nature, you know?

Yeah. I see this for everyone. It's a question of time. I mean, whatever the concept of time is, but it's like that. Yeah. And that whatever you're contacted, what the work you're doing also is for that. And that it gives an opportunity to, to, to come more closer in

for those who are called by that inner voice. They may not immediately recognize it, but it's the one true calling in every human being. But it might go like this, but gradually, somehow you find your way.

Do you have a feeling or experience of where you go, this consciousness goes once the body's done, once the body dies? I'm not so concerned about that. I've seen. I've had the privilege and the opportunity to be with a number of people who left their body in my presence also.

Even very recently, very recently, even just yesterday's the ashes of one of our sisters who passed away just maybe a week and a half week ago. The ashes were brought here. And we had at the Shiva Temple, which I hope you have a chance to go to.

We have what we call the tree of life. Many of our sangha who left the body, they're there, they're hushes put under the tree of life there. And it was funny. We were there. Last night, we were sitting in here. And so her husband was here,

and he wanted to keep something small. so I intended to go up there with them but I think they didn't want to disturb me disturb me or know what that means but they went ahead and they came down and they took one and who took the picture you took the picture

Sonosia took picture of them just sitting there and it's just this beautiful it's amazing it's a day like this you should show Andre this picture because this is happening all the time You show it? Look at this. This is a strange picture. At this time in the year,

the light, sunlight's coming from different angles into this place, illumine. I've seen so many. Friends, people close to me, left the body. So I'm very, very, very close. I've been able to the last breath. I've watched their last breath happen.

You know? So, you know, it's beautiful. So you're not concerned what happens. You just see that, you witness the beauty of the transition and... I'm concerned but what happens now here in our life

you know but after there is no after you know I said something once no I said you only live once but it's forever

you like that don't you know it and that guidance I show is this this buddy you leave body and go necktack

another body whatever you have to keep learning to recognize the things which are not in service to your higher self and you work to sweep them as you go.

But this, there's no limit to it. This earth is a bit of a difficult place, okay? Yeah. If you come here, you have to be strong to come here. And to work through these things. But beyond here, you're just going here while you're here. You're here only for you. For me, you're only for this only going.

How did this? Do you feel there are other places we can go or like as Earth a constant? You don't have choice like that. You know, you earn this in your being somehow, you know? There's not just, we have this physical

universe already is incalculable out of the vastness. There are billions of universes, of worlds, you know? That's just physical. In the spiritual, even more in astral realms, and causal realms and in the, it's,

I don't care about it. I don't care about that. It's all in each one of us. It's all in each one at the place of consciousness. If we stuck only with the mind and with the paradigm of personhood, our growth becomes very slow. But the minute you enter into this place,

and as much as my life and our life is to facilitate that, It's like you're released from a kind of bondage that was posing as a freedom, a very small freedom. It's like living in a golden cage. You don't need that when you have all of this. Something, you know? So this is the joy.

Yesterday we were here all the time working here because it was fun. When we work together, the sanga, it is too much fun. It's too much fun. I'm telling you, it's too much fun. We're here, fear everybody. Nobody wants to leave. We're just working together.

Came home in the night, blazing with spirit. It's just full, full, too much. I say, I wonder if it's because this Andre is coming tomorrow. So strong here for something, you know. It's true because I know you guys, say, what? It's full, full power blast of this, you know. This earth is too small for you, man. Sorry, I shouldn't say that.

That's not fair. It's big enough for now. But for this, you speak about this, and I can't. There's no limit to this. People are looking for a way out of their own small world is in the mind. When I say, the way out is the way in. What's got you here. I show you, it's very simple.

You know? It's good that we learn. It's simple. Because so much you turn is complex and so hard. It's not. For the mind and the ego it is. But if you are really earnest, it's simple. And all of the highest is here to support your deliverance in this.

It's alive. I feel just so grateful right now for you in this moment and forgetting to do this. Yes. I too am happy. I too am happy. I feel, I mean, really since the meditation or experience, you know, all the questions kind of dissolve at a certain point.

Don't me disappointing. That was great, signed up for it. But I feel the pointings that we explored in this conversation and what you share so simple. It's already here. It's not something we have to conceptualize. It's not something we have to try to grasp. It's actually the opposite.

Yes. We will try to grasp at first. That's part of it. You must try your own method for a while, to try and grasp that this and this like other things. But what I would want to encourage is for people to understand that there's a force working for you. It doesn't matter if you're the only person on an island.

It's a force. If you open up, it's very important to be aware of it. At least to be willing to become aware of it. That's more important, because most people are not aware of it. But to be willing to say, I want to be on board with this journey of self-discovery. I really want somebody somewhere, please hear me and help me. Simple like this can start. And I feel coming here, all these people that came here, very few of them I say,

I want you to come see me. they come by some means like that, you know. And each one within their own capacity at the time. I say your capacity is enormous. Your potential is certain limitless. Your capacity depends upon how much openness there is to look. But the journey is incredible. Would you say that as long as the openness to look

as as strong enough is big enough there, then there's nothing that could stop you from seeing it, from being. Yes, even I can say to people, even you can say in a simple prayer, please God help me, I'm not sure if I'm open enough. Help me to be open.

Please, I don't know what it is to be. I don't know if I have enough faith. But if I need faith, could you help me? even if you come like this yeah because people come they say I said don't worry you trust I will help you okay come and already something is moving you know the wheels are turning already

they are aching to turn for you that feels like a beautiful note to wrap up on because it just rings so true is there anything else you want to share with the audience that's tuning in before we before we wrap up here today If I have something to come to share, I would say, don't put yourself down.

You're never hopeless. Don't be hopeless. That you know what, create this thing. What create this thing, want this thing to be here. What create this body? What puts this intelligence in it? What puts this prana, this life force,

breath. It is said like in the Bible, when God created man, he formed the body out of the earth, see, let's put it like that, and then the shape the body, then he breathed the prana, the breath, and then man became a living being. It can take man to be mankind or life kind. This breath is the support of consciousness in this body, and it's keep something, and keep it going. Not your money, not your fame, not who you are. God keep this breath going and keep this flame in you. And one day in the last breath, oh, it goes back to him.

So it's with you all your life is there. Your life is huge. Huge. Everything you do, even stupid things, is part of the story. You have just to learn to grow and that God is with you. If you don't like the word God, we can call you. universal consciousness, okay, it's the same, you know. And your life is valuable.

Your breath, your presence here, something is playing through it. And there comes a time when it calls you in its own unique way, and it puts everything on the path for you like that. And if wherever you'll always find those who are always, also called here to serve you, to help you. Brothers and sisters on the path. For me, I don't mind who Muslim, Christian, Jew, Parsis, whatever they can. I don't have those categories don't exist for me, on the consciousness.

So for this, I have the blessing for all the beings. Because we need it. I received it. Of course, I give it to bless. the power of it. But of course everything is in the acceptance of that. And never think that your true way is going to be, no one can wake up and regret it. You understand? Because always it's unfolding and you see that everything you've searched for is because this was behind it. You're searching for this. You know? And it went through many avenues, but it's

choice for this. And that's going to be your greatest joy. Not the total fulfillment, just even the partial fulfillment is already carrying you. I really appreciate the wholeness of the, you know, the embracing and the appreciating of the full spectrum, like the getting lost in the play, you know, of this world and forgetting, like all of it accepting that it's all a part of the process. Yes, yes. I mean, like, nobody choose to get lost. Some do.

I mean, for a bit of what they experience. But, you know, all part of it is part of the stages that each soul has to go through in their own way. Some don't. Some don't suffer like that. Some go's just straight there like this. But they may have done their suffering earlier, you know. Now they are kind of, we call it like, you know,

floating on the warm here current of God's grace that can float. other ones go, eh, it's all the book. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Thanks to you. Thanks to you. And bless you for the work you're doing, bless you for your work you're doing all the body like this. I bless that, you know, that through that,

beings come to wake up. I don't think you can be more, there's no generosity greater than that. That through your presence and from your heart, you inspire beings to find themselves. Yes, sir. There's a great joy in the feeling of that service.

And you? And you? Where is he? Where is he? Yeah, this one. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks to you.

Thank you. Thank you for coming here. God brought you here. And wherever you go, A garden will grow there. His garden will grow there. Thank you. Thank you.

I bless you, bless you, that your work, each of you, each one present, when who will hear this, that your heart open up to that supreme consciousness. It can never be, it can never be, it is never a flaw, not a fog there. to wake up out of this sleep and that everything unfolding, always unfolding into higher levels of ascendance. That is the nature of love. Thank you, thank you.

Yes, sir. Very good.