Knowledge Fight - #710: Elizabeth Williamson Returns

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Today, Dan and Jordan welcome back to the show reporter and author of the book on Sandy Hook, Elizabeth Williamson, to have a chat about how things are going in the trial, important take-aways, and donut-related secrets.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge fight I love you everybody welcome back to another episode of knowledge fight I'm Dan I'm Jordan we're a couple dudes like to sit around worship at the altar of Celine from afar while we're in this hotel room and talk a little bit about Alex Jones oh indeed we are Dan Jordan Jordan quick question for you what's up what's your bright spot today buddy my bright spot Jordan is I'm going to steal yours you've already stolen mine you fighting with Robert Barnes on Twitter no that one wasn't mine oh no that's not mine but yes that is I thought that was going to be

for sure one of the great delights of my life yes an info wars character accidentally stepped into your Twitter mentions and got blown up with all people what a bad idea good work Barnes getting ratioed like crazy oh man I wouldn't have a nickname that is that uh belittling and then step into that arena that would be me I would avoid that it was it was fun to see of all the Twitter nonsense that you're getting into that was definitely a peak yes yeah what about you uh my bright spots uh or my I mean my dark spots I don't know whatever it is we found out today that the man the myth the legend will be testifying an open court tomorrow Alex Jones is supposed to take the stand in the trial as we're recording this or basically be today as the episode's

coming out right and you would think because here's why it's my bright spot because if you were a wise man who was going to testify on your own behalf you would absolutely stick to what you said in your deposition thus proving that you are not a liar that seems like it's going to be tough oh yeah yeah because he said a lot of things in that deposition oh yeah um yeah I think that'll be wild um to see and I don't know what to expect I think I'm going to shave my beard so I can super incognito we should definitely be doing that um yeah we'll see we'll be uh we'll be there and give you give you all a full report on the other side of course so Jordan today as opposed to an episode uh talking about what's going on on Alex's show I thought it would be fun to have

guests come in and talk about the goings on here in the trial talk about some of the experiences uh that we've been seeing some of the coverage no way would it be a guest who is also in Austin yes no way yes but not in the room with us absolutely not stuff is dicey um but uh welcoming back to the podcast Elizabeth Williamson thank you for joining us hey you guys good to be not with you now let me ask you this what is your bright spot oh yeah obviously oh my gosh uh so okay so completely not trial related my bright spot was that for the first time since I've been here which is almost a week I did get out for a run this morning um and it was only 90 as opposed to 101 so you must have gone for that run at like 3 a yeah yeah uh it was at about 6 30 yeah

I would have figured it would be 110 by that yeah no kidding yeah well by the end I have to say by the end it was getting uh close to yeah Vomitsville um temperature totally well congratulations on mustering the uh the drive to do that yeah I've been telling myself I'm going to go to the gym in our hotel for well we've been here a week I've been saying it for a week and instead I have s'mores snack mix I'm glad you enjoy me a bottom for you I think I did tell you guys about the shameful moment where I went out to go for a run and I wound up at voodoo donuts and I told you there is no running away from being healthy yeah that was really what did you get at the voodoo donuts so they have a um a limited edition banana cream pie donut yeah that was a lot of frosting

and then the diet donut that I got just to feel a little bit better about myself so it's the voodoo donuts version of a salad it's cinnamon cake donut oh yeah I got this I got this peanut butter banana thing that was sort of an Elvis situation no idea but it was the size of a horse's flank like it was absurd to try and fit that anywhere near my mouth I ate a I well I'm ashamed to say that over two days I ate a third of it yeah mine was so sort of sticky that I couldn't really finish it and then I didn't know what to do with it because I didn't want to throw it into the hotel your room will just smell like doughnut it's so I actually put it in the I put it in the toilet

I I thought this was gonna be a I threw it off the balcony situation I really thought that we were going to a different direction wait I mean did you leave it there I mean it's a solution to the problem no I I flushed it it was kind of like cutting out the middle man right that that is crafty oh the alligators got a little bit bigger yesterday and they all smell like bananas I personally can't get away from the oh captain my captain the captain crunch doughnut and I hate myself every single time oh it's good I eat it it's stressful you're standing in that line and you don't really know unless you do the QR code which I'm not very good at what your choices are so I'm looking at the sort of revolving you know

that old school bakery you know like diner revolving display as you get up to the checkout and you're like all right what do I choose what do I choose it's kind of a it's a stressful moment so I did see that that poster I'm gonna tell you something in a non-misogynist way I'm gonna do my best to do this okay all right they deliver baby yeah oh they do they'll bring to your door yeah I had to do that myself because I I couldn't handle well basically the moment that you're describing was the uh the kid in a candy store but like I'm not a kid I'm not gonna soup Nazi a donut you bring it to my home exactly I it was kind of fun though to go there early in the morning because it's a combination of people who are like you who really want to get there before

the line forms and people who are waiting for you to buy them one and give it to them on the street so yeah the when I was in town for the depositions I went there at night I went there at like after we'd all got done with everything I think it was probably like 11 or something and they were just drunk people hanging out at food or donuts totally I think it is kind of an after the yeah after the party kind of place I'm not sure that's what I want after a big night if you're a donut shop that stays open past 11 you are giving drunk people donuts that's your business model I want I want nachos or something filled with chili I think if I went there after the bars yeah I'd want like a some kind of oh my god I think just created a situation that gives

Dan a heart attack in two years yeah chili mac chili and mac and cheese inside a donut oh there's a million dollar idea Liz you've killed him you've killed my best friend how dare you it's like a pastry turducken so good so good chili mac and cheese all right the list we are here not just for donuts although they are more positive in many ways than a lot of the other stuff that's that's happening in town I think that's why we fled to that subject yeah you got it greener pastures flushing donuts uh but I told you that that's kind of a shameful episode hey listen you didn't tell us you told everybody I know I did I did this is humanizing yes yes who amongst the wonks does not flush the doughnut I will tell you it is very rare to not find a much donut it wasn't

a whole big thing I just you know I didn't I didn't destroy the environment or ruin the plumbing good good only my own plumbing by eating most of it that is how much we don't want to get to the trial is that we almost got there and then immediately we're like nope back to doughnuts yeah so you I wanted to ask you uh a little bit because uh we're all in town to observe and experience this um this this trial you've been a far more professional capacity than us usually yes but you also have had uh more experience on this story in particular you know following the sandy hook story um with your your book that it came out recently um yeah to engage in a cliché you literally wrote the book on this case yeah yeah I did yeah so I was wondering how you've

experienced it so far so I have to say you know I I worried about a little bit because as you say you know writing the book I got kind of invested in um definitely the plight of the families and got to know them pretty well and um and today I you know listening to um Mr. Crouch the the therapist who has worked with Neil Heslin and Scarlett Lewis I did have a couple moments where I was um I I really got a little bit emotional about you know what he had to say about their struggle you know with everything you know and he described this sort of two buckets one you lose your son in a mass shooting and the second bucket people call you a liar and say that not only was he not killed in that way that he never existed and um and at one point you know

they that Mr. Crouch the the therapist was being you know prompted to say well what does that actually mean you know when when as a parent you're kind of dealing with those claims and he said you know it's just so important to Neil and Scarlett Jesse's parents that he mattered you know that that this was and and Jesse in particular um has a very particular narrative and that's that you know he when the gunman entered his classroom and started shooting there was a pause in the shooting where either the magazine jammed or he was reloading and Jesse yelled run and nine children ran and they survived yeah and um and so you know one thing that I'm sure that Neil and Scarlett will speak about is that he was actually given uh fallen heroes funeral uh because the police

you know recognized that as an act of heroism and the children who survived said what had happened and that's how they knew so that part of his life is tremendously important to Neil and Scarlett as you can imagine yeah and this idea that that would be taken from them the first thing they they both told me and I met them separately um but the first thing they told me was that story and so it's so important to them and to have that strip from them um you know and their their therapist obviously described it so well it it is it's like saying you know it's it's taking that last bit that someone would cling to um and and saying that these were his final moments he was a fine child and and saved his classmates in his final moments and to think that someone

in order to sell supplements or you know I would take that that that shred from you is right that really got me I gotta say you know the the thing that got me about that is the the the therapist as much and as powerful as that story was when he was asked what's the most important thing to the parents what's the most important thing to them he didn't say that his he was remembered as a hero or he was remembered as somebody who saved anybody he choked up and he said the most important thing to me or the most important thing to the parents is just to let people know to let the world know that he lived yeah that he mattered yep that word he mattered that was when I actually did have to look down and compose myself oh I cried like a baby I was in

my hotel room I didn't have to worry about people like judging me in the courtroom I was weeping uncontrollably yeah that and you know why because that those words were uh vernik delarosa who is the mother of noah posner who is the youngest sandy hook victim she right after the shooting she said the same thing um to anderson cooper in an interview she said I just want people to know that he mattered he mattered you know and that that um I don't know something about that for now I'm gonna have to take a beat here but take your time that formulation is um you know like it just speaks to how much is stripped from you when you lose a loved one in this way particularly your child that you're then um

kind of by yourself saying he mattered I mean really that's that just speaks to the utter desolation that that these parents must feel yeah I found I found almost everything that went on today uh quite heavy uh and impactful yeah of course for a lot of those the the same reasons yeah uh we're touching on and that's one reason that I think I want to I want to ask you about a couple of questions about the trial just because after we heard that testimony we also saw the way that the defense behaved in their uh cross examination and how the the judge uh was not happy with their behavior did you did you experience that in uh in that kind of way yeah and so here's an interesting thing so as you can well imagine there are a lot of lawyers in these

parts who are watching this trial because as we know it's live streamed I know one of them was fighting with Jordan on Twitter earlier hell yeah really oh yeah good work Barnes yeah okay him um but also a lot of uh regular lawyers who are watching this and are just riveted by this because it's such a challenging case um for you know the the family's lawyers obviously and uh certainly for Alex Jones's lawyers but um yeah they but they were saying you know one of the things that you know the unenviable position that Alex Jones's lawyer is in is that he of course cannot attack Neil and Scarlett when they testify tomorrow so the alternative that he has is to attack you know uh Dr. Lubit who was the you know the forensic psychiatrist who had you know spoken

with them and to attack Mr. Crouch their actual therapist so it's you know lower stakes to try and impeach them than to go head to head of course with Jesse's parents so um so that was sort of interesting but because um the therapist Mr. Crouch was so uh kind of a sympathetic character himself I mean he actually filled up when he said that about he mattered you know he was filling up himself and you know he obviously feels very deeply um you know for Neil and Scarlett and for Jesse and and JT his older brother and so I think it was a lot more difficult than they had anticipated this wasn't a clinical guy you know this was somebody who was really very much invested um in the plight of this family and I think that made it super tough um to kind of

uncross come back and say well what about this and that whole thing of showing him the diagnostic manual the DSM-5 was just bizarre episodes because my favorite thing that I think has ever happened I've ever seen in a courtroom it looked like he just googled something he he tried to he tried to catch so what happened was uh he was trying to catch you're talking about the defense lawyer uh uh the defense lawyer was trying to catch uh the uh therapist in like a you don't know the exact definition of PTSD do you so the first thing he did was he tried to bring up the definition to the therapist and realized that he had brought the wrong version of the DSM which was an issue so then he went to the APA's website to try and find the definition in the DSM-5

however he found the APA's summary definition of the DSM-5 and in so doing revealed that he had no idea what he was talking about the therapist went I don't think I know what you're talking I don't think I know what you're showing me and then he just changed questions and then the lawyer turned around and ran into a chef 100 10 pies absolutely yes oh no there were two guys walking by holding a glass pane yeah I was watching I was watching that and I did I found it to be really uncomfortable because even executed well yeah I don't really know how horrible that's gonna play yeah and then just the fumbling of it was tragic that was really grim yeah and isn't it funny like no matter who you're watching it's a public performance and so you're kind of cringing no

matter oh yeah you know like just just taking out you know lawyers for the defense lawyers for the plaintiffs you know just taking all that out it's a public performance so whenever anyone stumbles or there's some kind of you know weird awkward thing that happens you're just sort of vicariously cringing for them regardless of where you are on the you know the case at hand and so yes in that one I was like oh my gosh like how you know how did that happen on the one hand it's pretty daring to to do this sort of ad hoc I'm gonna look something up you know and I'm gonna find it and I'm gonna present it in open court and but but you were sort of I found myself thinking well he is a therapist and the DSM is something that therapists consult routinely so if you thought

that you were going to call you know these definitions into question maybe just go out to the bookstore and oh no no no no no reading yeah daring is a fun word that you're using there yeah yeah it seems like desperate or dumb I tragically stupid foolhardy foolhardy is a great word I'll leave that to y'all to use my texas you know my just my little acquired text I should tell you I have googled a thesaurus and okay I don't know the exact definitions of any of these got a lot of words though yeah but um yeah I know I just at that I did not understand I you know who do you think possibly understood that did anyone understand that no one do you think anyone has ever even seen that before right like in real court yeah yeah these things that well you know

what probably so I mean in cases you know where you know you have people I imagine it comes up but I'm I'm really yeah I'm really trying to um understand yeah I don't I did not understand what happened there um that must be one of those pillow pounding middle of the night moments for that lawyer I just you'd hope but I mean like also I I get the sense from I don't know maybe just a vibe I'm getting off of him I don't think he beats himself up too much for coming off poorly that's just my sense definitely not texas monthly is apparently doing a profile of Alex Jones's lawyer Federico Andino Rinal and I will read that huge interest his name is Federico Andino Rinal oh what's his name again I'm sorry I'm just kidding um and you know I think he's kind of um

like from what the texas monthly reporter was telling me they are and and and the lawyers for the families that that he's kind of um that like a well-known family name around here he had been an assistant u.s. attorney he was appointed by Eric Holder I think Jordan you picked up on that when I was tweeting that about his history um and that it's not a matter of you know okay sometimes it's you know this person will pay you or what have you that it's there's some idea here that you know that that thing that lawyers say you know everybody deserves a defense um that it might be more of that than the payday yeah oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah I'm sure I've seen his mentor sitting in court right next to him the entire time I'm sure it is not about money

it's a curious situation yeah it's all about it's all about everybody deserves their day in court right well I mean it's also like to quote the wire you know it's a career fucking case that's true you know like this is the kind of thing that can really but you know what I gotta say like recognizing that aspect of his history that it makes some of the stuff that's going on look way worse yeah because there are there have been repeated instances where he's shown witnesses things that he hasn't taken by to the plaintiff's attorneys for approval which they have pointed out a couple times is like you want him for that yeah yeah those aren't mistakes that someone of that caliber would make that's a that's a choice strategic yeah at least not after mistake number

four then it's you've got to expect it's on purpose and the the um getting into a fight with mark bankstand and like giving him the bird in court like these are things that like really that felt like for me that just observing that that felt to me like suddenly he realized this is not the place I want to be I don't want to be within a thousand miles of where I am I am kind of getting beaten up here in this case and one way to put it yeah and I'm I'm I'm really trying to like keep it 30 000 foot you here but to me to me it felt like that moment in a wrestling match when someone's losing and they go for a chair yeah trying to get themselves disqualified as a fan of words much better way of putting it than anything I can come up with

right now yes as a fan of words I'm gonna have to go with my favorite adjective for him at this current time which is eviscerated he's literally had his guts ripped from his body let me yeah because it was his thorus yeah that moment came um after you know the judge had admonished him yet again and um he was losing that battle over exhibits and he was feeling frustrated because who knows maybe in his mind he genuinely felt like he'd been done dirty I don't know but it just felt like a kind of like volcanic frustration that happened right there um and for you know if he's like this kind of well-bred guy that you know we're hearing um then it's super surprising that he would be a childish bully a well-bred guy being a childish bully giving people

the finger whenever they embarrass him that's crazy that's the equivalent of picking up a chair and smashing it all totally you know what I mean that's that's something that you know you can't do right it's it's wild yeah but the thing that was sad was that that all that whole confrontation happened with the parents of a murdered child standing 10 feet away yeah and I think strategically when the uh judge wasn't in the room yes like I don't think he would have behaved that way if uh if judge gamble was in there she said today that if she were available she would have held him in contempt of court yeah correct yeah yeah she said had I seen had I been in the room when that happened um yeah so she was definitely kind of I kind of love as a defense for not doing anything is like

well because I only saw accurate live video of it occurring I can't do anything well the ref didn't see the chair I mean that isn't what it is isn't it the law is no wrestling the ref turned his back and then they hit him with the chair and then he turned around he was like well I can't prove it mom it's like if I turn around while I'm driving this car and I see what you're doing to your brother then there will be problems like I know it's happening but the minute I see it with my own eyes you kids are in trouble yeah it's your responsibility to do something once uh you witness once it's observed not to not to ask you a question uh that might be uncomfortable but exactly how many times have you felt like you and the judge are both moms really trying to handle

unruly children I think that is kind of a theme here yeah yeah I mean I think about that with Alex Jones I mean just his behavior and the you know relatively rare occasions he turns up for the proceedings it's like this kid who has stalled out in middle school you know I mean even the whole idea that he's traveling around surrounded by bodyguards I'm sort of thinking like a high school hallway and you know he's sort of like bought lunch for the whole football team so that oh my god there's 10 other people there's exactly 11 people with Alex it is literally the star quarterback being surrounded by the rest of the team yes it's a defensive line I swear to god I'll pay for your lunch if you just follow me down the hall to my locker so no one beats me up

I need I need a big uh big muscle little guys with guns too yeah so actually I wanted to talk about one thing that did happen I've made reference of this uh on a previous episode but you experienced it so I wanted to get your take on it it was from Tuesday of last week when Alex was there um and was giving his a little he was doing a the press conference out in front of the the courthouse oh yeah yes this um this was a situation where there was no one but security guards and you and Sebastian Murdock uh I believe in it what was going on there it's from uh from Hearst okay yeah three had one other person yeah whoa whoa whoa Dan stop being so inaccurate taking it out of context anyways sorry sorry Liz I was I was observing this from uh safe distance

yes um and when it appeared to me where were you like three blocks away I had binoculars I was on the roof of the building across the street I was in the book depository no I was maybe right I was maybe 20 feet away um sort of just standing and uh vaping and giggling a little bit because the spectacle of it was was truly bizarre um and it appeared that from my assessment was he didn't know uh what he didn't know that you were you and that Sebastian was Sebastian yes I think that's fair he just thought this was media yes right yeah which is makes him happy give me an idea of how many times you have met and spoken to Alex Jones via any different Liz was masked up to be true true true yes um well I've never recognized anybody who was wearing a mask before

so I do understand now that it makes perfect Alex has eye blindness he's face blind um so yeah I mean I spent a lot of time with him but it was in 2018 so I think and also I think in the heat of the you know like publicity moment I think he just sees as you said you know I think he just sees people recording him as generic media as an audience you know like sort of faceless audience and so he was talking to for he did ask John from Hearst you know where are you from and John told him and he he seemed to think okay this guy's safe to talk to and in fact props to John because he did ask him so what is this medical condition that your lawyers are saying is keeping you from being here I've got super cancer he was like oh it's just not important

John being a really good journalist was like this says that it's important so he was like well but really you know what is it and he goes ah it's not a big thing and he goes no really what is it he goes well it's a hernia okay so he is an untreated hernia and that that is the medical condition that is has prevented him from sitting through the trial I don't even believe that yeah I was gonna say that doesn't even sound reasonable to me I know I thought he was gonna say something like you know I got this thing on my forehead I have to get removed or honestly I feel like my response to that is do you even lift bro like I feel like that's my okay yeah well you can get a hernia just yelling probably I'm sure if that's true yeah I would have asked if it was

his like fifth or sixth the bout of COVID that he's dealing with right he seems to keep getting that another reason to keep my mask on smart smart so how long did it take for him to realize that this was not uh unknown media to him yeah I think when um so Seb from from HuffPost, Seb Murdoch, asked him uh well what about this cryptocurrency that you got as an anonymous donation because he was saying I'm bankrupt I'm bankrupt I'm bankrupt so bankrupt yeah and and Seb said well what about that eight million and he said well it was actually by the time we sold it it was only worth seven and he was like oh I am I retract my criticism that is fair yeah exactly so you know to most people that does not equal bankrupt and so he you know persisted and then he said uh I said something

like well didn't you just pay a million dollars in sanctions and he was like yeah and I said so you're not exactly broke and he was like but when I pay it it means it's gone while nut brain that is a man who's got the goods yes I was thinking if you really wanted to insult me like why wouldn't you pick like a smaller you know item like listen brazil nut brain I was gonna say like why aren't you just following me on twitter and grabbing a couple from there they're universal I'm not like that personal so you are you're you're pretty sure at that point once walnut brain comes out yeah I think he kind of like it was a dawning recognition that this oh this is that woman yeah I get it this is that woman from the New York Times because then he said this oh no he

he did look over while he was talking to seven he said you know this is this is a trial of the media these are these are fraud like that New York Times person right there and and then and then I asked about the million dollars and he said walnut brain and then he went into this thing saying this person is a monster and a fraud and so I was sort of like walnut brain monster fraud trifecta well here's here's the good news the only people he's saying these terrible things about you two is his security there's no one else there so yeah and you know at least if it's bodyguards it's good to be walnut brain and not you know armed threat true yeah armed loner it really it really did take a while for me to remember whenever the bodyguards were sitting next to me

it took me a while for me to remember like they can't bring guns into the courtroom you realize that Jordan like that's not okay and they're not going to like push you in a courtroom they have a license to push for money yes okay that's fair um I was I was watching all of this and I thought it was really fun because I could see a shift happening in the conversation and then after the shift uh once it became a little bit hostile um Alex put on the bumper sticker on his face it took a picture with his lawyer and I've actually been really offended that some outlets have run with that picture yeah on their story I know it was such an obvious gambit it's such a it's a it's a well-framed picture I will give I will give the photographer that

but it's like I was there when it was taken this is Alex with a dumb bumper sticker on his mouth that he put on for show shaking hands with his lawyer wow no one watched yeah like it was it's I don't know it kind of in the courtroom too I mean he he when he first sat down like even before opening arguments began on the first day he pulled that out he put it over his face he mugged for Federico and Dino Reinal his his lawyer um and Dan even laughed now Dan's even laughing now when you say his real name well it's a long day yeah yeah I just feel like it's important to be accurate so um yeah so he was sort of mugging for for him and then he put he didn't put it away I mean you know Reinal gave him the side eye kind of like don't do that the parents

are sitting right there you know yeah yeah like you you know I'm not the only person that you're entertaining with this you're definitely you know doing this in view of the parents and yeah like this plays on your show but this isn't that yeah exactly that's a good question can I ask you this real quick real quick do you are you surprised like I I really never thought I would be surprised at what happened but for some reason I really thought when it actually came to being in the courtroom there's no way they would behave like the way like they had to have prepared they've had so much time right yeah are you surprised you know yes and no so one thing is that first of all I get this sense from Reinal his lawyer that that he feels like oh I'm not sure

what I got myself into I think that that you know explosion with the you know flipping the bird and all that you know was was a sort of expression of that I think today what happened to him with the DSM was another you know I think he feels like oh my god I don't know what I got myself into the idea that he was trying to kind of waffle about actually whether Jones would testify or not when you know he's been saying on his you know on his show like I'm so keen to testify and then he had to go check with him I think these are all sort of you know indications that oh boy you know he should have known what he was getting himself into but I don't think he was fully prepared for that if that is and that's not exactly a knock on him because is anyone ever fully prepared for things

that Alex Jones does but I'm gonna have a I'm gonna have a disagreement with you there real quick I feel like any kind of preparation any kind of preparation even the slightest amount does not wind up with you having 10 minutes left to call your main witness as to whether or not they will take the stand fair fair yeah that was bananas also there were 10 other lawyers right yeah all the previous lawyers it could be like hey what should I expect what should I do yeah oh yeah oh you mean like the 12 previous lawyers yeah yeah you could have had a focus group of his previous lawyers you could have had one phone call we have a baker's dozen basically yes it would have been like a crowded zoom of his previous lawyers where you could say what advice do you have for me but yeah

yeah do that with one of Alex's lawyers you're gonna get a tubing that's just gonna happen yeah so he said um yeah so he I said well is Alex gonna testify and he said it's all up to Alex and I said do you mean all of it and he was like yep everything it's all up to Alex and I thought we're up Ro because you know how that goes it seems like a lot of stuff in his his life is that yeah yeah seems like there's not a lot of great counsel in many areas or anybody really telling him hey cut it out yeah I just I I would be so curious to know you know who knows really like does he go home and say well that went about how I expected or oh my god I can't believe I got myself into this you know I I think it might be the latter if you're talking about Alex he goes home

and says hello whiskey my old friend I'm not I'm talking about his lawyer yeah yeah so that I you know I don't know um but yeah no I agree I there there have been a lot of moments I think he's actually you can tell that he is a criminal prosecutor by the way he cross-examines the witnesses he's pretty aggressive he's he also just kind of rolls with it when the judge kind of slaps him down on the various things like we talked about he he's pretty quick on his feet coming back from that kind of thing but that's not to say that this is going well because boy it's just even if no one said a word just the idea of Alex Jones and a Sandy Hook family you don't have to say a word to know that this is probably going to be a tough rodeo you know the the ironic thing is

it hadn't occurred to me until I was watching him and then put it together that he was a criminal defense lawyer and then started thinking about what uh or no a criminal prosecutor yeah and then started thinking about what they do and then I started thinking 96% of cases go to a a plea bargain in in that kind of court so this is probably a guy who's really good at doing paperwork and like negotiating with other lawyers as to what's an acceptable sentence doesn't end up with a lot of trial as opposed to going to an actual trial because he does not have experience in a trial I just can't believe that he does yeah I think some of the lawyers who have been been watching this and kind of weighing in you know just completely disinterested except for

the fact that they're lawyers and this is fascinating um would disagree with you there they I think those guys actually get a lot of prosecutorial courtroom experience um on the other I might discuss how I don't care what lawyers think but on the other side you know um in some of these personal injury cases or you know lawyers who are tort lawyers um in fact the father of Josh Koskov who represents the Sandy Hook families in Connecticut um his dad has since passed away but I interviewed him for the book and um and he said uh you know one of the funny things that has happened is that people settle so frequently that we get less and less time in the courtroom so one of the reasons that this is

catnip for the legal community is that you have uh two sets of lawyers who actually have a decent amount of courtroom experience and so it's it is kind of fascinating to see Reynault kind of shit the bed like a fucking idiot be unprepared and and you know different ways of describing the same thing yes we do um but but yeah I mean it is it the whole thing is if it weren't so tragic I think it would be in a textbook kind of way really fascinating you know I feel like rarely rarely anybody drags their feet this long or or or you know pushes it this far yes exactly exactly and then that determination to kind of roll back the clock and say this is a defamation trial no it's not you lost that you know because you because you had complete contempt for the judicial system

so you lost your opportunity to make this a free speech case because you didn't wind up at trial because you would not comply with any you know not any but most of the court orders and most of you know what you're supposed to do to prepare for that trial so that ship has sailed and now here you are in a damages trial and you're trying to turn it into a signal test of free speech which I think most people would have been you know interested in but um that didn't happen because he stonewalled his way into a damages trial and so he is where he is and I think both he and his lawyer wish they were in a different place but they're not yeah that's the thing that I find so frustrating about a lot of the responses that I see from people who are not like necessarily paying

that close of attention but the the like you know not recognizing that Alex absolutely would have gotten a trial on the merits if he just cooperated in any way exactly yeah it's so frustrating to like hear that point be made and then people just not hear it not listen not understand that like the only reason that this is happening is because of his choices I really almost want like every article written about it to begin with a timeline of the number of times that Alex could have just apologized and stopped with no lawsuit whatsoever could have just made a public apology and stopped with no lawsuit whatsoever whatsoever and then the number of times that once the lawsuit was brought they could have done any billion number of things to keep it from getting to where we are

now and instead everybody keeps writing like the families are seeking damages well that's that's sort of template of how exactly trials are expressed or yeah but I get what you're coming from I have labored with that just in writing my stories you know say trying to say all the time that you know what they really want is you know they want that they are I mean this is the altruistic thing here they really are trying to shine a light on the fact that the lies around Sandy Hook you know and here I'm like you know talking about what I talk about in my book and that's that you know it really was a foundational story of how misinformation has kind of taken hold in our discourse you know because it just went from and Alex was at the

center of a lot of this you know it went from that to to pizza gate to QAnon to coronavirus smiths to the stop the steal campaign to to the January 6th insurrection and you know his fingerprints are on pretty much all of those oh and you can throw Charlottesville into the mix too you know absolutely placement theory so you know his fingerprints are all over those developments and so in that sense this is kind of it really is a kind of fake news on trial type thing it really is yeah and and you know and I think that's one reason why people are so invested in it and and this defense that that he's trying to put forward really does concern First Amendment lawyers this idea that there's so much garbage in the atmosphere there are so many lies and

mistruths in our national discourse right now that who's to know what's true or false this seems like such a specious cynical argument but actually the more of this stuff that is floating out there the more lies are you know are spread to millions of people the more people will advance this defense and you will see it in these dominion voting systems cases you'll see it in the January 6th insurrectionist cases you'll have people who will say like Alex Jones said in his deposition I had a kind of psychosis because I was lied to so many times in an interview with Glenn Greenwald he just said he was drunk yeah well yeah I mean it's a kind of insanity defense in drunken sanity defense yeah a drunken sanity defense it's the Jamiroquai defense

yeah I woke up the next morning and virtual insanity Dan come on I I I didn't put the pieces together okay all right all right I thought you were trying to pull a shaggy it wasn't me or no no no I won't be an afro man because I got high listen I'm I'm just gonna go with Jamiroquai fine fine um so one one other thing I was just thinking about was that if Alex does take the stand tomorrow yeah um that is gonna be wild for a number of reasons first of all because he'll be you know have to have cross examination but then the other aspect of it is these questions that the jury has been giving oh shit have been pretty good I love that practice yeah it's because I do think that there's a lot of things that probably need clarification from the jury's point

of view that maybe the lawyers aren't aware of and so I think that's really helpful but I think it like based on the trend of the questions we've been seeing they could ask some really messed up things to Alex um well maybe not messed up like you know bizarre or anything but like pointed questions that he does not want to answer and then he appears to be evasive to the jury's own questions like he puts himself in a really really dangerous position there yeah and that would be the best you could hope for that that he would you know that he would have made them that's the best dude well the worst is like contempt right I mean like getting thrown out of course just exploding um which is what he did in his custody trial remember um that was where you

know it was like his ex-wife had um attorneys who really knew how to get under his skin and he finally just exploded I talked with Charlie Warzell about that because he was in the courtroom and he was saying if if it would have been a regular thing a bailiff would have escorted him out wow it was just he just exploded and well it's good news for him because I'm sure Mark has no idea how to get under his skin yeah Mark doesn't seem like the guy who knows how to get under anybody skims from sitting in that deposition I beg to differ I think he's got a few of his numbers but the good news is if a bailiff tries to get Alex out of the courtroom Alex has a little army that's right that's right oh shit we're gonna have to stand off yeah yeah I don't know I mean

I don't know it just I wouldn't rule out uh the fact that or the not the fact the possibility that uh Raynaul his lawyer is working on him right now just to say Alex I unless you're gonna like prostrate yourself before the the court and and abjectly apologize there's probably not a lot you can say that's gonna help you yeah you you you being you you know any other person maybe if that advice like that would be I would be begging him to oh my god Dan you you how many I mean you remember better than I do but how many times did Alex in a softball t-ball interview where his his questions were answered for him how many times did he say I've never lied on purpose like eight eight yeah eight and forty minutes is Glenn Greenwald yeah yeah oh yeah and then he

said he was drunk when he was saying these things about the Sandhook families twice sorry I didn't realize you were talking about the Greenwald thing I thought you were talking about something else sorry oh yeah and then what was the other thing he said he decided in advance that the election was going to be stolen he was like he said these really messed up things and just like no one asked him to no one like it wasn't he wasn't being pushed on anything do you remember when the Liz do you remember when the defense lawyer asked Becca Becca of all people of all people do you know what confirmation by his his that was really yeah our next episode Alex Jones was like uh I decided before the election happened that it was stolen yeah I mean this is a woman who

who was confirmation by this is like the most elementary term for her I just I can't even that just I'm sure that came off to her as like do you have an either do you have any idea of what I do you know what my area of study is or or are you just purposely trying to belittle me you know it just probably was was legitimately the latter or both I mean maybe both yeah I don't know I mean that's that you know well breadman with a lot of connections in a in a city generally treat women really well that's what I've noticed yeah but again he has to attack people like that because he cannot attack the families so you know to kind of try to you know impeach her or belittle her or make her seem like she doesn't have the gravitas that she has I think is just

just at some levels it's strategic because he really cannot lay a finger on Neil and Scarlett it just would be too awful yeah it's weird though because I think on some level the the attempts at impeaching the psychiatrists and the the therapist I don't think it it's really easy to see that if you're the jury and not see that as being an attack on the the lived experience of Neil and Scarlett because Neil and Scarlett aren't here I can tell you they're therapists that they are lying to you right it's calling into question the things that they have told the therapist right no I agree I think that that you know they because they were not I think what he was relying on is that they would be that they would be much colder and more clinical than they actually were

yeah I think that's right especially the therapist I mean that was you know I mean he was Mr Crouch was literally starting to cry and he you know he was obviously very much feeling their pain and so to come after him as if he would have been this sort of like gray clinician that's just not who I have seen in my patients many different desires they have yeah exactly if he would have been someone like that it would have been you know that that would have been a great strategy but but because the man himself was so sympathetic and because he had worked you know he was a sort of integral part of the community around Newtown and he had worked with first responders and he was he had very much lived the the tragedy and the aftermath he was not the kind

of basic you know hired gun expert at all that was one of the big things that backfired on the defense lawyer was when he was trying to almost say like because you're part of the community you're so biased in their favor you could never be an impartial witness and instead of like saying instead of successfully getting the jury to be like ah this guy's biased the jury was like yeah fucking right man thank god yeah no yeah I mean it would be impossible I think to be well not impossible because we've seen it but I was going to say it would be nearly impossible to be in that community when those events happened and not feel an absolute empathy for everyone involved I mean it's just that's kind of part of being a human being right

so again that was I don't know I I'm sort of shaking my head because I don't really I mean I can understand I think you prepared for a different person put it that way I think I think you're right but also I would suggest that if some tragedy befell Austin uh Alex would not uh feel the super bad I might I might agree with Dan on this being part of a community uh it does not necessarily make one doesn't doesn't no no you have to have some innate empathy yeah and I don't think Alex would be in the position he's in if he weren't lacking in empathy yeah that's probably true well we should probably um you know wrap this up before too long uh but I wanted to uh just say I guess and I'm sure you're you're on the same page with this and I I'm sure

you have some thoughts on the the matter of uh you know making sure that this all stays squarely focused on what this is actually about as opposed to you know especially 100 especially as we go into tomorrow where in theory Alex is going to be there and who knows what could happen it's the circus it's the clown show we're all interested in there is the danger of that and I I know that you're someone who deeply appreciates what um this is really about and what Neil and Scarlett have gone through as well as you know many other parents and community and family members yes and what what are your thoughts about that if you have any anything you want to say on that I mean that is I know that there was this sort of like you know yeah whoa you know kind of sense

in the in the courtroom when it became apparent that you know quite likely Jones will testify although I still think there is a possibility he won't but um but I think the whole thing of it is super unfortunate when it comes to the families because it's going to be super traumatic for them to to sort of share that day and share that that you know the the the sort of you know the same space with him I'm sure they'll do everything they can to to insulate them you know from you know being in the same place while he's testifying or what have you um but I couldn't agree with you more there you know the the sort of you know that this is a proceeding that is you know has lots of aspects there's like the legal part the intellectual

part of it the the sort of you know competition of it and all of that and I think in in covering that and in thinking about it and being part of it and being immersed in it it's easy to forget that this is about the parents of a child who is murdered in cold blood who after saving the lives of nine of his classmates and then his parents you know as we said at the top you know having that that story to cling to and having just this you know thousands of people tear that narrative for them by saying it didn't happen you can intellectually know how nuts that is but at the same time and and how and how ridiculous and how and how it should be a non-factor right but it is as the psychologist testified today it is a factor you know no one likes to feel

misapprehended even on a minor thing and to have somebody take that that precious you know narrative and and you know everything that your child was away from you I mean that's really what this is about and it's also about the broader thing and that's that the families are doing this not because they even expect that they're going to see any kind of you know monetary recompense from this but really as and I know this from talking with them for years for my book they are trying to send a message they really are trying to say if this can happen to us this could happen to your community not the not the shooting although god knows that could happen but this idea that misinformation and disinformation and the scrambling of you know

everything that we hold sacred when it comes to establishing truth and relying on facts could come for you in your community it could happen to your family and that's really the the the like blaring red signal that they are trying to send to people this is a problem if you didn't notice it around us maybe you noticed it around January 6th maybe you saw it around coronavirus these are all the same phenomenon and they're really trying to raise awareness here and we should be thanking them for that because of all the people who should be spared having to you know have that an additional burden of like standing for something in America it should be these grieving families and here they are you know saying this is important and please you know

pay attention i just think we should thank them for that definitely and the the just and you you're mentioning like the re traumatizing of being in the room when alex might may or may not testify absolutely i couldn't even believe the poise of them being there when alex was just sitting yeah at the defense table that that to me was even like wow i don't know if i'd be able to do that yeah yeah yeah it's like kind of like um you know being in the presence of someone who has abused you or um you know or that you've fought with in the past or that you know a person who who means kind of trauma to you right so you know i don't know about you but i get kind of shaky and nervous and you know it's really scary and i i i actually do think you know i at hearing

the two uh the the psychiatrist and and their their therapists say that today they're scared i believe that you know yeah absolutely true it's it's it's because it's heaped on top of what happened to them everything that they you know everything was torn out from under them they lost all sense of control and now they're they lost their child they lost you know your whole world is thrown off its axis and now you know they they've lost control even over the story of how he died and and his heroism in his last moments i mean that's understandable yeah and to even add on to that you have the added sort of i don't know the the unfortunate thing on top of it that is that alex is now trying to control the narrative of their involvement in this suit yep you know like

so there's there's even almost a meta thing that's going on they are adding to their own pain by suing him is right yeah he just what you know which is which did turn out ironically whenever mark was like okay if you say that they're adding to their own pain guess who's at fault for that it's you you have just added that to the damages we are now including that in the charge i what a funny mark what of mark mo there's no more mark moment than being like fine man so let's do it see if i'm already know then i'm pulling out a steel chair yeah absolutely yeah i'm surprised you didn't get a million middle fingers after that one well it's it's amazing because you know you would think like okay um the lawsuit that's additionally traumatizing actually not it what

has happened is this has been four years of stonewalling and fighting and tooth and nail on the part of alex so that's that's the traumatic thing it's the four years of trying to drag this out trying to use every trick in the book you know all of that does he have a right to defend himself sure he does but that's not exactly more haha well he actually doesn't yeah but that you know that it wasn't a fair fight from the beginning so the to then turn around after four years of extending this pain and then say well you'd all be healed if you didn't sue me is sort of the height of cynicism yeah and we would be foolish to expect anything better yeah i mean i don't know if there's a better way to end it yeah that's perfect well live thank you

so much for joining us again it was great to it was great to see you and i'm sure i'll see you again at the courthouse of course also great to chat and thank you very much for for doing your best to represent the families instead of just the trial in the articles that are absolutely writing in the times i will i will stay in the in the shit and you get to do it for professional people who who actually uh can can matter so thank you thank you both i i'm so happy to to to well to talk with you but also just you know your knowledge that you have of alex don't be nice to us we don't handle it well i know i know we're very nice to you thank you for joining us this sound is me getting my security blanket s'mores mix i know all right i'm gonna stop but you know how i thank you and

how many others do as well that's very sweet thank you very much all right well we will talk again soon and jordan will be back soon absolutely but until then we have a website we do have a website it's knowledge fight dot com and we're also on twitter we are on twitter sad and i'll just provide that go to but jordan uh we're back but until then i'm neo i'm leo i'm dzx clark i'm darryl rondis i hope you oh i forgot i did darryl rondis accidentally oh no i'm out of nick names nice andy and chanzas you're on the air thanks for holding so alex i'm a first time caller i'm a huge fan i love your work i love you