Knowledge Fight - #727: Chatting with Sebastian Murdock

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

Today, Dan and Jordan sit down to chat with Huffington Post reporter Sebastian Murdock about his time covering the Sandy Hook trial in CT, and about how he was recently challenged to a debate by Owen Shroyer.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge fight. Dan and Jordan knowledge fight. I need money. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding me. Hello Alex and Mr. Tim College. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. Knowledge fight. Knowledge fight. I love you. Hey everybody. Welcome back to Knowledge Right. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're couple dudes like to sit around, worship at the altar of Celine and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Oh indeed we are Dan. Jordan. Yeah Jordan. Quick question for you. What's your bright spot today bud? My

bright spot today Jordan. I don't know. You go first. I need to think a little bit. All right take your time. I need to mull this over. I will tell you my bright spot Dan. My bright spot is there's this TV show. Amazon company that I despise spent more money than is ever been necessary to make this show about the Lord of the Rings. But I'll be god damned if it's not fucking great. I would prefer they'd spent some of that money elsewhere. But guess what? It's a great show. Okay. I love elves. Sure. I love them. I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of mixed opinions about this. You know it's weird to know about what's happening. Like when you know what's going on in the original trilogy movies you know you're like oh okay that's a nerdy thing to know.

But when you know when you're like looking at your wife going like oh these are the men of Numanor. All right you don't even know what's going to come next after about 2000. You're like okay maybe I need to stop. I'm not going to I'm reciting this Silmarillion tour every night whenever we watch it. It's terrible but it's great show. Well I'm glad you're enjoying it. I am enjoying it. How about you buddy? I don't trying to think. What's the problem with doing these day back to backs you know. Yeah. Well I guess I'm playing a fun game. I've Valkyria Chronicles. Valkyria Chronicles. I guess. Yeah. That's a bright spot. I don't know. I'm enjoying that enough. I don't know. It's it's nothing has quite scratched the itch of three

houses. Yeah. Yeah. That that was just like right in the pocket right in the sweet spot. But I am enjoying it. I like I think I do enjoy a little bit of this turn based game. Yeah. You know I think I think that vibe is something I never played growing up. Obviously most of my game video game stuff that I played growing up were Nintendo right and nonviolent right. My parents were not into violence right at all so that those were verboten. Sure. And then the only way we got video games was that my grandma liked Nintendo's and so whenever a new system would come out she'd give us her old one. Nice. And so we would play like Nintendo but late grandma gamer is a great. I didn't have one of those growing up. Yeah. That's interesting. It was pretty pretty cool. So you

know play Mario play but the big one was Donkey Kong Country. Sure. Like that was sort of my model of like and I guess you know throughout those systems there were turn based games and stuff just never really was in my my view. You know I think we're older now. We like those games that don't have as much action. Slow it down. Hold on with your your your ride in this rhinoceros and it can jump. I don't know too fast too fast. Squares give me squares. Give me things that have response time necessary. I'm not not doing it. Move in geometric fashion at my pace. Yeah. Quick events. We have to press a button. No. Thank you. No. It's fine. It's fine. I'm enjoying it. Good. So Jordan today we have a fun thing to enjoy as well. Oh dude. A little interview that

we did sat down with Sebastian Murdock. Oh yes. The Huffington Post. Mm hmm. There at the trial in Connecticut. Yeah he was for the now made at home but was there in person was also there in Austin. Indeed. Yeah it was just nice to have a chat about the differences between the two trials and just sort of the experience. So it was a fantastic time. Yeah we were we were going to have them on when we were in Austin and I believe I rambled about that in our intro circumstances circumstances dictated and now it's great to finally have them on. I'm glad that we got him for sure. So we'll get to that here in a minute but first I wanted to bestow a raptor princess ship on somebody and that is the so whenever we put out the email for the buttons apparently

you laughed over the email address and so people didn't know if it was plural or not. Oh OK and so the email address that was the non plural version sure there's a real danger of people sending emails to this with their addresses and such right and Jay Lee got that email address to protect people from sending their address to somewhere and that is something that is so cool and we appreciate it so much an unforeseen possibility of like real trouble. So Jay Lee thank you so much you are a raptor princess. I'm a policy wonk. Go home to your mother and tell her you're brilliant. I'll barbecue your ass. It's over for humanity. You're a beautiful soul. You're coming for your balls. Well I piss all over your God. Very few people crap in the pool

unless they're babies. I piss all over the state. Make it a practice of calling people pieces of garbage when they are coming as you see fit. Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you very much on behalf of everybody. Yeah buttons coming out. They're happening. They're coming. They are. We're surrounded by them. Yep. But who knows. It'll be a while. They will be. I appreciate everyone's patience. We'll get there when we get there. Yeah. But if you want to chip in the dream cream fundraiser of course is going everybody who's a lot of people have said to chip in for shipping and what have you. I don't want you to do that. If you feel like chip in and chip in for the you know where to go for a good cause. Oh yeah. And now without further

ado Jordan let's enjoy our interview with Sebastian. So hey everybody. Very exciting. Joining us here in the podcast. Not in the studio. No. No. Do this digitally over zoom. Details. Very excited to have this gent joining us. We met down in Austin for the trial and wanted to have him on for that during that period of time. But our schedules were not accommodating. So we're thrilled to welcome to the podcast writer for the Huffington Post. Sebastian Murdock. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me on fellas. Appreciate it. I feel so self conscious about that introduction. I think you did great. I think you did great. I'm saying that there was quite a bit of fanfare

to it. Come from the school of the like stand up introductions. No, no, no. I know. I wanted to applaud. I did. I loved it. Well naturally. That's what counts. I appreciate that. Sebastian thanks for joining us first of all. And second how's it going? It's going good. Just got back from from reporting in Connecticut. So trying to give my body a rest and you know get back to get back to square one a little bit. Yeah, you've been been up there covering Alex's second trial. It seems you're on the beat. You're on the the Huffington Post Alex Jones beat. I am indeed on the beat. I like doing it though. I mean, I like I like watching the downfall of Alex and I like watching the Sandy Hook parents get some

accountability out of him. For sure. That's it's cathartic on some level. Absolutely. Those are really the only two good things though. The rest of it is a slog of bullshit. So, you know, well, I was just I was just telling you guys, I mean, I get out of court at 5pm and I'm straight to the bar at 515, you know, it's you got to kind of wash it away. It's a good place to get a little work done. And you know, it's in video games sometimes the like, you know, you get composure by having alcohol, you know, never, never quite understood that and temporary boost to stats. We're talking about here. The bar is my save point. So, I got to get in there. So, I was wondering if internally, like editorially, you have like, are there conversations

that like, you're the Alex Jones guy around these parts? We got an Alex story, send Sebastian on this. Yeah, absolutely. But there is also, as you guys know, so much minutia in the bullshit of Alex Jones and of info wars. So, there are other times too, where it's like, Alex Jones, you know, sent, sent messages to Roger Stone of his naked wife, which was a rolling story, a rolling stone article. And so, in situations like that, I sort of say, I don't want to write that, you know, there's there's just so much shit, you know, like, right. I find that myself even like, as we do a podcast dedicated to him, like there's still time. So, I was like, I'm going to punt on this. Yeah, exactly. Well, I can't do everything. It's kind of a self care thing too. You know,

we'd all go insane. Sure. I mean, unfortunately, both of you got really good at a job nobody else wants to do. So, then it's like, well, hey, guess what? You guys did it by volunteering. It's like, it's that curse of like, may you get what you want. Yeah, at least. Yeah, the monkey's paw. So, make yourself indispensable. That's a smart move. But I do, I do want to stress, though, like you're it's not like you only write stories about Alex. I was looking over like your bylines. It's all over the place writing about all kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, I'm I'm primarily a breaking news reporter. So, you know, I cover the politics and, you know, the mass shootings that we have. And I've done. Yeah, yeah, dude, any any Cobra, any news that breaks. But, you know, sometimes

investigate himself, too. But Alex Jones saying I've been in one way or another reporting on these defamation lawsuits since 2018. So, it's like, you know, a four year build. And now I was actually talking to attorney Mark Bankston, who I know all the walks out there are very familiar with. They were concerned that he might have died. Yeah, he was fine. He was good. But, you know, it's it's interesting to finally see four years of not just reporting, but of this process. And now we're finally not even at the first trial, we're at the second trial now. And then there's going to be a third on the way. And so it sort of feels like, you know, the, I don't know if I call it the payoff, but it's all sort of coalescing into, you know, we're getting towards the climax

here. It does feel like things are speeding up, too. Right. Once that first trial hit, now it's starting to feel like, oh, it's the next one's right around the corner. This one's going to be a, you know, it's it's happening. Well, I think that's the the function of like the delaying, you know, like it's just the ball has been kicked down the road so far. They're like, a lot of this would be the kind of pace things would have gone if so much stalling involved. Exactly. What's it been like being in the like when we were in the Austin courthouse, you know, there's a lot that you see and can kind of notice that you don't just by looking through the stream, like you've been in the courthouse the the entire time. Right. Yeah, that's right. I think

what's what's very different about this trial is that in some ways it's it's somehow even more sobering. And that isn't to say that the Austin trial wasn't. But here we are in Connecticut, the state where it happened. And there are, you know, so many, so many plaintiffs. So the family members are there. And that that I think has been, you know, incredibly impactful and and continues to to sort of highlight, you know, because for all the sort of laughing that we all do at Alex. And of course, you guys know this, like this is this is about what he did to these parents. And so to have them there, you know, it's it's a humbling experience. And it's also incredibly somber, you know, in a lot of ways. I found that to be incredibly palpable in in Austin. And there was

a moment just watching the stream of this Connecticut case that I thought that for sure there's no way I could have handled being there for it. And that was when Norm Patis was giving his his opening statement. And he sort of did a an act out of Alex being like, All right, I killed the kids. I killed all the kids. Yep. And the recognition that these parents were there. And that Norm would bring himself to do that. Like, I don't like not that I would freak out and jump him or something. But like, I don't know how I could emotionally handle seeing that it was part even on just a stream. Yeah, I mean, it's that it's that level of disrespect, right? I mean, we also see it by the fact that Alex can't even show up for these opening statements. He's going

to show up when he has to testify. But it's, you know, and Jordan, you you had talked about this a lot when we were in Austin. But the idea that, you know, there have been a lot of news media that we're reporting on. Well, Alex Jones says that he's sorry he regrets. And we know that's bullshit. Because again, he's not showing up to the trial at all. He's on info wars talking about this case, you know, calling it a kangaroo court. And then like you're saying, Dan, Norm Patis gets up there and he starts doing that, that mimicry in front of the parents whose kids were killed. Yeah. And also Norm saying that their argument is that they're exaggerating their trauma. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, Norm also fell asleep in the courtroom. So he was also he was

also nodding off. Yeah, he that's when you were saying that like something that's different about this from the Austin, I have to imagine that just the existence of Norm Patis makes this feel entirely different. Yeah, you know, what's what's kind of surreal, though, is I still can't figure out who the worst lawyer is, if it's going to be Patis or right now, we've we've had some disagreement over this ourselves. I genuinely think that Norm, for what he's doing is doing about as good as he could possibly do it. Right. I mean, the quits, including falling asleep in the trial. That's like that's he's doing what he's supposed to be doing. He's taken a power nap. Yeah. He's talking shit. He's being an asshole. That's what he's supposed to be doing. Yeah.

Barnes made that point on info wars even. He was saying that this is how you deal with a rogue judge or whatever. And like that is obviously not the case, not the situation. But what Norm is doing is the only thing they can do, which is throw bombs, basically. Yeah, exactly. Sling mud and hope that, you know, Daddy Alec sees it back in Austin. Yeah. Whereas Ray Nall seemed like maybe I can win this thing. It did. It did feel and then what happened? Well, I do find it interesting because it does feel a little bit like Norm saw the first trial and Ray Nall went with his like halfway appeasing, halfway trying to slime ball evil into places. And then he was like, well, that lost. So fuck it. I'm just going to try and sling as much shit as I can. And maybe it'll lower the judgment.

You know, maybe people will be like, I guess they are exaggerating. Why else? Or maybe maybe you can make such a problem that it taints the jury or it gets or they get their mistrial. You know, and it is, you know, the other thing about this trial, too, is we're looking at four. I guess it would be three weeks at this point now. So it's going to be a long trial. The awesome one was only two. So that gives Norm plenty of time to do something. Disbarred. I feel like I heard them say that they had agreed that it might be a shorter trial than expected. Okay. Well, I think everyone would love that if that ends up being the case. But I feel like that was something that I might have heard whispered in a sidebar, but I'm not entirely sure. It wouldn't be surprised. I

mean, if you listen to the pause testimony, just watching her constantly be like, uh, no, I'm pretty sure we've never heard of Google analytics. All right. Well, here's a phone call of you talking to the head of Google about Google analytics. I'm pretty sure we never heard of it, like, no, we die. Yeah, just three days of Britney Paul saying, oh, I don't know. I don't remember, which is par for the course. You know, of course, that that was going to be their strategy going into it. Here is the proof that the business uses X. Do you still argue that the business doesn't use X? That's still my position. Yeah. And if that's the case, then it does feel like, yeah, the trial should be shorter. Yeah. There's a lot less of that being necessary. You know, like, if you beat her,

if you beat her over the head with how she's obviously lying often off the first time, then you can use that as a shorthand as the court goes on, you know, like, oh, well, I don't have to prove this to you. Remember pause. This is that situation again. Yeah, exactly. It's, uh, it seems like Alex is going to be there. We're recording this on Monday, but it seems like he's going to be there tomorrow. So we're putting this episode out on Wednesday. So by the time this comes out, he may have already been there and you might have already gotten into experience. Are you, are you headed back? Oh, that's right. Put me on the stream. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. So I actually, I came back, uh, Friday back in, back to Brooklyn.

My wife and I actually had a little wedding party. We got married earlier this year, but now we're doing a New York wedding. So congratulations. Thanks so much. That's a, that's my bright spot of the day. So I, I think we're just being cute, fellas. I think what I'm going to try to do is go back, uh, at least the last week of the trial to be there for that. But yeah, I am, I was disappointed to be there and not, not have Alex show up though. It wasn't, you know, a huge shocker that he didn't want to come. Yeah. I remember we were standing next to each other in, uh, in Austin when Alex first entered the courtroom on the, on the first day, we were both quite shocked that he would, uh, he would

be there when he didn't have to be. Yeah. So the whole court was a murmur of, will he, won't he kind of drama? But again, it's like he, he was in Austin. That's his home turf, you know? So I think, I think Connecticut's going to be a lot, a lot tougher for him. Yeah. And he doesn't really have that much of a bench back at info wars. Like he can't take a month to go to Connecticut and expect there to be enough people to fill in. Like he's got Alex Stein filling in for him. He said, uh, does he really? Yeah. Oh, that guy. That's the kind of talent pool he's pulling from. Alex Stein harassed one of my, uh, one of my reporter colleagues. She, she works at vice. Anyway, he's, he's a scumbag. AOC works at

vice. Yeah. Yeah. Don't tell anyone, dude. Don't tell anyone. It seems like that's kind of that Stein guys MO is a harassing folks. Which, which I mean, that makes them perfect for info wars. Yep. Yep. I mean, that's how Owen got a job, you know, essentially yelling at people at protests. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's not, it's an unusual form of audition, but it is an effective one in certain areas. Yeah. That's right. If you're auditioning for a troll factory, you can troll. Um, so when we were in Austin, we got lunch, uh, at a diner, uh, fairly, fairly near the courthouse. And on the way famously, um, on the ground, we saw an info wars bumper sticker that had been used as Alex's prop to put over his mouth. Very bumper sticker that once touched

the lips of Satan himself. We found, uh, this discarded relic essentially. There was a lot of talk, uh, in the, in the community about whether or not I had taken it. And, uh, the answer was no. No, of course. That's disgusting. It belongs in a museum. Um, but in Connecticut, you, uh, this is, this has gone huge, gotten a lot of attention. Yeah. You found an important bumper sticker, uh, in the wild. And, uh, this, this caused a little bit of drama. Yeah. So it was, uh, on my way to the court in the last, in the first few days, there were, there were info wars stickers placed on signs right outside of the courthouse. Um, which it was an intentional Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, this was directly out of the courthouse. This was not,

you know, me blocks away, go into a restaurant or something. This was right in front of the courthouse. Um, which is where did you buy so many info war stickers and why did you put them up right outside the courthouse? Infowars.com slash store. No. Okay. Okay. I got you. Now I got you. So I finally, uh, I finally, the last day I was there, I ripped the sticker off and I took a photo of it. Um, it is not the most courageous thing in the world that I've ever done. You know, I just, I just ripped off a sticker. Uh, I understand that. Um, but, but you know, the other part of it though, is that again, these families are walking into the courthouse and they have to see that. And that to me is just, that goes back to, to the disrespect that is just

shown, um, to these families across the board that continues to be shown to them. Yeah. So yeah, I, I ripped it off and, and, and tweeted about it. And then, uh, and then Owen Shroyer got real mad about it. Oh, see, now this is interesting because, um, Owen Shroyer is, he's kicked off Twitter. He's right. He had his, all I do is Owen, uh, handle. Oh no. Is that is really? Oh, that was, uh, that was his fan. Yeah. The Cucked Destroyer. Thank God he's off Twitter. Just, I never have to look at that. He couldn't get at Cucked Destroyer. There's, he could, he could probably have gotten that Cucked Destroyer three, but that really doesn't sound as good. No. No. So someone has found this tweet and shown it to Owen, or he has some kind of a ban evasion account,

which is probably the case. Yeah. I mean, it's not hard. And he gets furious. He, the Cucked Destroyer cannot handle. No, I rattled him. I rattled him. No, he's, he's been destroyed as a Cuck. I got, I got a flood of comments from Infowars people. So yeah, I went and found the video and it's five minutes of him, of him whining about me taking off the sticker and because I said, fuck Infowars, which, which, you know, I did do that, but credit's due. And of course, as a journalist, we try to like maintain objectivity, but Infowars, it's, it's pretty black and white, you know, there's no, there's no moral gray area here. There is an objective opinion to say, fuck Infowars. 100%. 100% is like, we can't say that. That's because they're fucking crazy, man.

Yeah. Yeah. So he, he gets on, he gets on Infowars and he offers, he doesn't offer. He begs me to come on and debate him and then says, if I, about what? About the sticker? Yeah. Yeah. It didn't exist. Okay. Well, it could have been a false flag. It was a false flag. Yeah. Could have been a globalist setup. I'm not going to do it, obviously. I'm so sorry. Yeah. No, of course. And, and, you know, that is, that is the trap that he wants to lay bare is, oh, this coward, he won't come on and debate me. Well, yeah, no shit, I won't. Why would I lend legitimacy to you? And also, you're going to profit that video ends with an ad being played, right? And he said, if I had, if I defeat him in the debate, then he'll, he'll retire. Who's going to acute a case? I'm sorry. What? Yeah.

If I defeat him in the, I, and now this is wrestling shit. Yeah. I mean, I feel like you guys are all missing the, the greatest opportunity to like say it has to be a video interview debate thing. And then you just moon him. I don't understand why people don't show ass more often. You know, what's nuts in situations? It's nuts that that's exactly what flashed through my mind. Of course, that's the only thought that you could have is just like, show him your ass and then move on with your day. Yeah. Now retire. Now retire. I won this debate, obviously. Huff, Huff post will let me get away with a lot, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't like that one. My test the boundaries. I do. I am fascinated though by the idea of challenging you to a debate because

it's so open-ended. It's, it's a bizarre request. Yeah. That's, I, I find that really fun. So he challenges you to a debate. And if you win this debate, he will retire. It's about versus career. Right. Right. Right. But he didn't give you a topic. It wasn't like specifically we're going to debate about whether or not stickers should be removed or like just. Yeah. Just the most open-ended, which again, just goes back to please come on my show. Yeah. You know, please, please give me attention. And then the headline of it will be Owen Troyer destroys Huffington Post globalist reporter. Yeah. Destroyer added again. I feel like facial hair, facial hair debate. You've got him. Okay. Cause his is garbage. I think he's covering up a week chin. That's what I think it

is. Oh yeah. Well, yeah. Obviously. But he also has, I'm not sure if it's super consistent, but he often has the beard with no mustache, which is the most disgusting. Well, that's offensive to my heritage. I'm not judging it culturally, just appearance based. My Mennonite heritage does not. I mean, Dan, you look great. You look great though. But I have the full mustache. Exactly. Right. And if he shaves it, it grows back in five seconds. It's crazy how fast it should grow. Well, I've just resigned myself to essentially looking like a hobo. So I'm just, I've made peace with that. Whereas Owen's still trying to impress people. That's right. Oh man, it's so fun. I wish there was like, I don't know. I'm a little jealous, honestly. Like,

I think I would respond exactly the same way that you have in terms of like, no, I'm not doing this. This is ridiculous. But I wish, you know what it is, someone other than Harrison would have ever said our name. But I think, I think he, you guys are way more of a threat to him than I am. Well, I really think that's true. You guys are just like, you've been at it for so long. You are so knowledgeable, you know, that, that I think they, they know who you are, right? They are actively ignoring you. I think it's also the institutional aspect that you have of the Huffington Post attachment that is like an unresistible thing for them to try and grab onto. They want to go after you for the Huffington Post for two reasons. One, it's a legitimate outlet,

right? So people have like, oh, this is a news thing. And two, you have a boss who says you can't do stuff. Yeah, that's true. We can't come after us because we don't really have much legitimacy beyond being everybody knows where the only people in no one, no one can tell you to turn in your gun and badge. Right. And if I said I will debate you and then showed him my ass on screen, there's no negative consequences for me. That's true. The wonks would love it. Dan would be like, that's not how we comport ourselves, but we'd get over it. I would give you a finger wagging. It would be, it would be a wagging of, he's not, he's not mad. He's disappointed. He would be disappointed. But I could do it. And then it would be fine. Like you have rules and they don't. So they don't

want to fight somebody who doesn't have rules the same way. You know, yeah. You forgot the third reason that they would be out to get him as a Huffington Post reporter. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that is that, uh, 13 years ago, some of Alex's gold. So what, um, other than Norm Pattis, other, some of this stuff, what, what would you identify as like being the differences that you feel between the Austin and the Connecticut cases? Like is, is there a real vibe that's different? Yeah. I think, um, and I, you know, I don't want to inflate his ego too much, but the thing that, that Mark Bangson did so well and, and that whole team quite frankly, but they brought a level of, of charisma and sort of like Dick swinging that,

that I feel like this trial doesn't have. And that's not, that's not to suggest that, that, um, you know, the plaintiffs lawyers, uh, in the Connecticut case aren't doing a great job. I think it's also a much longer trial. So that's going to be part of it. Um, what I've noticed in, in the Connecticut trial, you know, this first week, we've only, we've had Brittany pause on the stand for three days. So it's been, been kind of long and tiring. But through that, we have gotten, I think a lot of good new information of the internal inner workings of info wars. They've got, they've got the, the marketing kits that info wars was sending out to advertisers. Um, you know, we have the proof that they were using Google analytics, the thing that Jones and info

wars got sanctioned for minutes before the trial even began. Um, so I think, you know, in, in terms of that, I think it's, uh, it's creating a pretty powerful argument. Um, we saw, I, I want to run this one on this number off real quick because it really did shock me. September 24th, 2014 info wars sore gets $48,000. The following day they, they pushed the story. FBI says nobody killed it. Sandy Hook massacre. It increases to $232,000. Yeah. I mean, that is insane. And, and it just, and that is proof that when they pushed the lie, their profits went up. Yeah. Yeah. There's, um, and the other thing too is that they, they have the snapshots of the Google analytics from those emails and you see that it neatly tracks also to a giant spike in traffic. Yes. Uh, to the website.

And it's, it's pretty difficult to look at all those numbers and not see like, well, I don't know, you'd have to find some way to connect their sales pitch to the stories that they're actually doing on the show. And I just think there's no way to possibly do, oh wait, no, yeah, that one, that one's very obvious. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's not good. One of the things I think is really, really notable too about this is that like, I've seen some sales data that they've had that are like, you see increases, um, in, in the sales, I believe like, uh, at the end of the Austin trial, Mark presented some of the texts with Tim Fruget that showed, um, that some of the, uh, they were like 800,000 in a day during this, this stretch. And like that is definitely notable, but what's

missing from that context was that was like when they were doing a marathon, like that was, uh, like they were doing a 24 or 48 hour marathon. And obviously they're like pushing the sales and it's going to raise stuff. That spike in the 2014 when they were doing the nobody, uh, the FBI says nobody was murdered. Um, that is just organic from the traffic that's driven from the quintupled. Yeah. Yeah. You can't get it really get around that one. Yeah. There's, there isn't like weird external context. And it is, it is what's so damning about that number though, is that even if you wanted to, like it would be, if I'm on the jury and somebody's arguing that, no, we don't really pay attention to that kind of numbers. I'm mad just because that's so bad at business that you're

insane. You know, like if the people on the jury are thinking, Oh, well, I saw my business quintuple. I'm going to do that again. Like it is too ridiculous to think that they would not notice a massive spike like that. Well, especially just their behavior accordingly. You're absolutely right. Especially because that is, they don't have morals. They, their one desire is to get money. So that's the shit that they're going to pay attention to. Yeah. And it strains credulity to imagine that like they run a warehouse and shipping business and all this, like the pills and all this. And, and then they don't do any kind of analysis of the TV show. That's right. What strains credulity is that Britney pause as the corporate representative

can't be certain who works there. That beats the shit out of credulity and leaves it out back behind a fucking doc. Speaking as the company, I don't know who has a show. Exactly. That strains credulity. And if you're Harrison Smith, that's not a compliment because he was definitely forgotten about it. Have you been, other than Owen's challenge for you, have you been monitoring the content at all? Have you been seeing any of the coverage? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen some of the, I watched the video on the kangaroo court, you know, bullshit. And then that was, that was actually bringing up, brought up at the trial as an example of Alex Jones not taking this seriously, which is just, I love every time. And now we're on,

this is the second time it's happened now where the judge has to see a photo of herself that info worth has created. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you could argue that he is taking it more seriously because he didn't say that she's connected to pedophilia. You know, well, trial's not done yet. It's true. It's true. That is a bar that most people would not think that you could cross. But yeah, I mean, now that I think about it, that is a certain level of restraint. Yeah. There is. That is a tangible level of restraint that we can see. The president has been set. Exactly. Yes. I would almost accept that argument. See, I'm doing better. I'd be like, well, I think that physically, I guess that's true. Look, I'm saying you're full of shit. I'm not

trying to get you hurt. Right. Right. Exactly. You should be thanking me. Frankly. Yes. Oh, man. So you, you said you started covering some of this stuff like at the beginning of the trial. Is that, is that like where you're newsly? That's not the right word. But like sort of for the news purposes, covering Alex started back in 2018. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So before 2018, I didn't really, I think kind of what, what ended up happening is I had gone to Parkland to cover that school shooting when it happened. And then I was approached by, by Mark Banks and because Marcel Fontaine was misidentified as a Parkland shooter by Info Wars and then brought a lawsuit against him, which is still pending. And, and I believe his attorney

saw that I had been covering Parkland, brought that story to me. And then from there, you know, the Hesslin and Lewis case came in and then it was sort of a snowball effect. So I just, I kept covering those cases and then didn't realize just how down the rabbit hole I was going to have to go with this. But, you know, I was glad to have done it. Alex, that's how all of us wound up here. We all were like, well, we just looked over and there was Alex Jones and then it's five years later and I don't have as much hair as I used to. Someone has to do this. Oh, fuck. It's me. Yeah. We all jumped into the abyss and now we're more tired than ever. But it feels good. Sort of. Yeah. You know, when you're always falling, it's like you're not falling at all.

That's right. It makes perfect sense. It's a way to think about it. You didn't have like, like a long standing like interest in the right wing misinformation. Maybe not necessarily misinformation, but definitely have done a lot of coverage of right wing extremism. You know, I've, you know, been doxed by the white supremacists and neo-nazis. So we've got that. We know you're real. Okay. Yeah. So what brought that on? That was, man, I can't remember which time. There was the time we helped uncover the leader of the bull patrol. They call it bull patrol because Dylan Roof had the bull haircut. I had one recently of an Illinois police officer who was dabbling pretty hard in some white supremacy.

And that's, you know, I credit to HuffPost. That actually sounds like a good Illinois police. He was only dabbling. That's nice. Well, yeah. Dabbling was not the right word to use, actually. It was pretty fucking bad. Okay. So HuffPost in general, you know, it's me and several other reporters have been covering right wing extremism for a while. Andy Campbell and Chris Mathias were in Charlottesville, you know, with the neo-nazis march. I went to Charleston, South Carolina when Dylan Roof, you know, shot up the church. And so, you know, we might have run into Jacarie Jackson when he was down there. Possibly. That was a while ago, but yeah. So, but yeah, so it's sort of, you know, Alex Jones just sort of seemed like the

next logical step, right? I mean, he is very much within that realm and stirring the pod as much as possible. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that, like, how do you deal with that? Like, you know, you do this coverage of, you know, these extremists within organizations or, you know, the bowl patrols created their own, like, organization, essentially. And you do coverage of it. And that's important. It's newsworthy. People should, you know, know about these things. But then the consequence of it comes with this attention being turned back on you and it's the threats and the personal information being, like, do you find yourself needing to have, like, security measures that you need? Yeah. I mean, we do have a good security team. You

know, when we get, I haven't been docks in a while and fucking knock on wood, you guys. But, you know, our team does a good job of, like, getting our information off. And, like, you know, there are definitely measures that you can take. And it's definitely, it's not, like, a free for every man for himself, you know, when this happens. And then another time, my parents actually got docks, but they're MAGA Republicans, so jokes on them. Oh, they got docks and people just send cookies. Yeah, exactly. They were like, your son's a liberal fucking reporter. And they were like, yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah, we know. I always think about, like, if you have personal information, like your address in the hands of these nefarious, dangerous weirdos, do you move?

Like, I mean, it kind of, I feel like I would move, right? I don't know. It depends on the level of harassment. And I actually, whatever I've gone through really pales in comparison to a lot of other journalists, particularly if you're a female journalist. Yeah, I was going to say, you have a penis. So you're off to a good start, like, as far as harassment goes. Yeah. And so most of the time, you know, if they're giving me threats or whatever, I can kind of ignore it or, you know, not worry about it as much. But I think if you're a female in that space, then they've really got an axe to grind. And those are the journalists who I worry about and who my heart goes out to when that happens. Yeah. I guess I'm just sort of thinking about this,

like, because I haven't really thought about it too much. Like, it's always been, like, the expectation that, like, something is around the corner of some kind of angry info warrior thing, but that just doesn't happen. No, no, no, we never, we never get any of it. Yeah. We've, we've barely been contacted, like, twice, three times, maybe, and it's Jordan sounds so disappointed when I mean, it's not disappointing. It's just so weird. I think when you were tweeting about the trial, you got a bit of idea. I got no, not even then. No, people, people didn't. I think it's just because we're not on social media really. It could be. But I mean, I think that's a big part of it. See, the thing is people, when I was on Twitter, people didn't come after

me. They went after people who were like, it's a tertiary, you know, they were people who were around. And so if they said something similar to me, then they would go after somebody with, like, 30 followers or something, but nobody spoke to me at all. Yeah. It was, it was disconcerting. You're scary. You are scary, dude. Jordan, Jordan, just a fucking Tasmanian devil. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have recommended it. I wasn't saying that it's a good idea. I'm just surprised nobody just gave it a shot. You seem unpredictable. You yell a lot. Yeah, you're too good at it. There's pictures of you from in Austin with your pits just like, they're like, his heart must be going ready to go at any moment. Wait, didn't you? Wait, Jordan,

didn't you also, didn't you get admonished by like the bailiff or something when we're in Austin? Sure. Sure. I got a couple, but that wasn't really for anything. That was just because you were about to yell at us. I was about to be a, I was about to be a problem. Yeah. So I got, I got preemptively warned quite well, which was good because then I got to go back to the trial. If I had gotten away, it also taught us an important lesson. And that is that you respect bailiffs more than me because I had already told you not to do that. That was a device. They have guns. That's true. That's the difference. So do you plan to go to the, the Posner case as well? Do you? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because

that'll be, I mean, that's really the, the, the end chapter on this in a lot of ways. And that's not to say that, you know, things aren't done, but, and, you know, uh, Lenny Posner and, and, uh, Berenique, they are the ones who really, they were, they were the ones who really started going after Alex first for, for the lies that he was spread. Lenny got, you know, Alex's videos taken down off YouTube. Um, and so that is going to be, uh, it's going to be really interesting to see. And I think it was going to be that, that trial itself, even though it'll be the last one, I think there's going to be so much, so many new stories and narrative and, and facts that come out in that case. Um, and it's going to be really worth paying attention to. Yeah, for sure. That's,

that is something like to go back to, sorry to, to take the conversation a step back, but to go back to something you said earlier about how, uh, the, in the Texas trial, you know, Mark and company brought a certain big swing and dick energy to, uh, the proceedings, you know, the threatening gummy bear or gummy warm aura of Bill. Bill's, Bill's got that radiating off of him. Um, but in, in this trial, I felt like there's much more of a almost nerdy granular element, you know. So when we're, when you compared the, the lawyers, I do think that the Connecticut lawyers are doing a really good job getting into the very minor kind of detail stuff. Like you, have you noticed, uh, that kind of, you know, sell asleep? Well, right. Nevermind. Question retracted. Well, I will say,

but to your, to your point, Jordan, I will say that, um, I mean, and I keep saying this, but like there, there's a lot more trial to come and there's going to be more testimony. The testimony of Bill Aldenberg, the FBI agent. Um, I mean, that was, uh, that was really difficult, um, to, to, to watch. And, and, you know, he's essentially hyperventilating on the stand because he, he's, um, not only did he have to, to relive the horror of what he saw that day. Um, but as he said in trial, he had to say it in front of the family members. And I think that's what was breaking his heart even more. Uh, you know, he said to them at one point, he said, I'm two, that he pointed to the family. And I'm saying, he said, I'm so sorry that I, that I have to do this,

that I have to talk about this. And, you know, that's my, my heart breaks. And I think those, again, are the sobering reminders of like the, the impact that this has had, you know, that on, on these people and the trauma that continues to exist. And the fact that Alex and, and company still won't let up, you know, and still want to make a mockery of this just shows that they don't, they don't care. They don't care at all. And I can't, I can't wrap my mind around that because, you know, I'm, I'm a journalist. I'm a human being first. And, and there is a real line in the sand when, when you're attacking the parents of dead kids, you know, you're either on the right side of this or you're fucking dead wrong. Yeah. It's not much, not much gray there. Exactly.

It speaks to, it speaks to the, to the extent of what kind of shit we're dealing with is like, you know, in, in your line of work, especially you, you know, you rattled off a list of atrocities, you know, and you were there and it's, it's easy to get desensitized to, to a lot of that. But at the end of the day, this is so fucking bad. You cannot get desensitized to it. Yes. I don't know how they can, you know, that's the crazy thing. Well, it's not, it's, it's, um, I think it's because to become desensitized, you have to have a starting point where you can. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, you have to, you have to have a baseline of empathy to begin with. And I just don't think that exists for them. No, I think, I think from my experience of, of watching this show

and looking at this world for so long, it's, it's a cynicism and it's, it's, it's a, it's a just baseline of, of like whatever works and it's, yeah, it's completely disconnected from what you need to get to become desensitized. Yeah. Yeah. And that cynicism goes back to Owen Schroder trying to get me on to debate because at the end of the day, it's still a way that he gets a profit off this trial. Right. Right. How are you, how are you handling the, you know, like we, as we've just kind of talked about that kind of disconnect where, you know, you see Bill Aldenberg on the stand, you see the families there. And then at the same time, minutes apart, you see Norm Patis making, uh, what amounts to the legal version of dropping his pants and saying the N word as an

argument. Yeah. I, you know, that's, that's such a good point, Jordan. I, because I think, and I know you guys can relate to this, like you have to be able to do both. Right. I mean, do you take it seriously and let it be somber when it is, but we're also allowed to point and laugh at the clown on stage. Right. So I, you know, I think both things can kind of work in tandem, but it is a, it is sort of emotional whiplash sometimes. And you know, at the end of the day, I'm still, still going back to have a beer to just sort of like process, you know, what the hell did I just watch? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's natural to like, like recognize the clownishness, but like it's still, it's so weird to have, but I guess it's kind of what we, we swim in all the time. That is like,

this is funny, but it also exists as a, uh, it's painful and it sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, it, it's not dark humor. That's not what it is. No, it's, it's like where, where we live at the, uh, demarcation point where reality and surreality are crashing together. What's funny is that surreality is trying to come into the real world. Like, like they're trying to bring it through this fictional doorway and we're like, that's a wall. That's all it is. You're not going to get anything through. But Kool-Aid man. But there you go. Yeah, exactly. That's the right way. That's the only thing I could think of. It feels like Norm is trying to summon the Kool-Aid man.

Something that I thought of when you're, you were talking about the Bill Aldenberg's testimony to go back to that for a second. One of the things I thought was really, uh, kind of horrifying about that, that I didn't even really think of was that part of his experience with the entire, um, you know, the aftermath is that he was accused of being an actor who was also one of the parents. Yeah. Parent David Wheeler. Yeah. And so like his experience of the denial of his experience, the whole thing also was like an element of it for him was Mr. Wheeler's. Yeah. Yeah. Two, like he, I don't, I, it was like an almost an appendage to an already. It's not his fault,

but it would be very difficult to not feel like you were a part of what was being done to this other person. I felt like that was something he was talking about on the stand. That was horrifying. Yeah. Exactly. That, that to me, I think was, was the most heartbreaking. As at one point, um, he said something to the effect of I, I wish I had done something differently. He said, he said that he took some responsibility. Yeah. And it just, and that is so heartbreaking because we all know there's nothing he could have done. Nope. There's nothing differently he could have done that would have stopped these, these people from, from still, from still making, trying to make this connection and still throwing his life and everyone else's life into, into chaos

and turmoil. There's nothing he could have done. And yet he still has a clear guilt about it. Well, that's that, that's that, uh, that I think it's got to be rooted in that, that overactive empathy thing too. Like you just want to think of some way that you could have helped and, uh, yeah, it is, you know, but the cynicism is too great on the other side, you know, it's just they, they, they, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It is, it is weird because it is, it is a little bit like hearing some people describing like what they could have done better to, uh, stop a hurricane. And it's like, yeah, yeah. That hurricane was coming. Yeah. You were just in the way. More sandbags might have had the water get in somewhere else. Yeah. It might have diverted

water somewhere, but the damage was going to be done. Yep. That's exactly right. It sucks that this is a force of nature in our minds. Well, I mean, well, bullshit artists are a force of nature. Right. But now, I don't know if it's that the lying bullshit artists are the force of nature so much as it, as it is like these types of panics are a force of nature. You know, like, how many people got caught up in the satanic panic and all of a sudden their lives are fucking destroyed over imaginary bullshit. Yeah. You know, this is, this is an arm of a social ungulation that's so fucking weird that it is kind of a force of nature. You know, but the hope, the hope is that, you know, with these trials, that'll, that'll help to,

to quell the storm, you know, let's get it from a hurricane to a drizzle. Right. Which is so, which is so fascinating in terms of the trial because Norm keeps bringing up that, that thing that Medi said in the opening statement of, you know, we should, we need to shut, we need to shut them down. This needs to stop, you know, that kind of thing. And if the defense lawyer says that you do feel like, oh, there's something prejudicial about it, right? But that's just being honest about what needs to be done to handle this because we can't, you know, if it was a criminal trial, we'd say put them in jail forever. But that kind of thing. And to, and to that point too, it's like they're saying that we have to shut them down to end

this because the proof is that they're still trying to profit off of it. You know, they're still now, now it's about the trial and the kangaroo court and blah, blah, blah. And so, yeah, I mean, the only way they're going to learn is if you take their money away. Yep. Yeah. The ultimate lesson I think in so much is just they don't learn. They won't learn. They can't learn. They don't want to. And yeah, it is an argument is pretty easy to make that a fitting punishment just has to be like, you can do a podcast. That's what you can do. Honestly, it's almost like, listen, I don't want any punishment other than that you just

can't talk on the air anymore. You can do whatever you want with the rest of your life. You just can't bother people. Like it is, it is a little bit like you just, you just can't be that guy anymore. Yeah, I can, I can think of some other punishments, but I'll keep it to myself. Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, listen, hey, you know me. I'm a real restraint guy. Yeah, that's right. I found it interesting that Norm in his introduction was kind of like conceding the fact that they're going to prove that Alex is a liar. Yeah. And like to me, I think that one of the things you would think of as like an appropriate punishment is like really recognizing that this person is full of shit in a very public space,

but then I realized like, no, they'll concede that. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Sucks. Norm, Norm also. So a couple, you know, some high, some color from the trial is Norm had a sidekick with him who like another lawyer, you know, standing, helping next to him, who had a slightly shorter ponytail than Norm. So it felt like, it felt like a like a pan of wine. Yeah, dude. It was so good. It was so good. When you get fired at Patis Law, they cut that off. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, it's when you, yeah. All their legal knowledge drains out the back of their head. When many chops Patis in half with a lightsaber, things are going to get real interesting. That's right. There was a stretch of time that Patis had like a weird like quarantine beard going too.

I was wondering if he was going to show up with, with just like that giant beard. I'm glad, glad he didn't. Oh, that guy sucks. What a, what a weirdo. What an absolute, every time he walks around and I mean, it's just everything about him is wrong. I don't like necessarily, but I think it maybe is inevitable that so much of the conversation about the trial, like whether it's with you here or even on our show when we're just talking about it, it focuses around Norm. Like I just, it's, it's hard not for it not to be like, he's such a, well, and he, he's been a picture. Yeah. And he's been a picture in Alex's world for, for a long time now. So. Yeah. He was there when Alex put out a bounty on Chris Mehdi. He was in studio while Alex was

drunkenly screaming about that. Yeah. His antics are like, he's, he's a dancing monkey in the courtroom and every now and again, he just starts banging his symbols together and you can't not look at the monkey banging your symbols together. Like, what are you doing monkey? Stop it. How did you learn this? Exactly. Who trained you? Where is your master? He'll be there tomorrow. I'm fascinated to imagine how cross-examination is going to go or just Norm asking Alex questions. I can't imagine it's going to be a mess. It's going to be exhausting. I've already started my objections. I'm just going to say objection for now to begin with Jesus. I can't imagine him being allowed to get many more than two or three questions through

to Alex before they're like, we're just shutting this down. I think, I think Norm's going to have a tough time as the weeks go on. I mean, he's already, you know, nodding off in the courtroom and he, there was a quick recess and so he was like tweeting just like other shit. You know, Mike Sernovich. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. About the migrants being sent to Martha's Vineyard. It's like, well, head in the game, Norm. When you're the defense lawyer, you want to project an air of confidence. Okay. He is doing a little bit of nonchalance goes a long way and kind of suggesting that you've got your, you got a tight hand on this ship. You know, I actually didn't think about it that way, but you might have a point there. He's trying to neg the court.

Falling asleep is basically just peacocking. Yeah. Exactly. I don't want to date you anyway. With hold approval and then it will come to you. I don't want to load judgment at all. I'm so cool. Dare you guys to give a high judgment. You don't have the guts. The first trial, the strategy was red pills, the jury. Right. Right. Second strategy. We're using the game. Yes. Exactly. Amazing. So he should probably wrap this up before too long. We're coming in close to an hour here. So I figure before we do those, there, what, is there anything else on your mind that you think is like important from your experience, but like maybe either trial that you want to bring to bring to the forefront? Yeah. I mean, I think just, and I've said it before,

but I think it's just worth always repeating that like this is about the Sandy Hook families. This is about, you know, the parents who lost their children. This is about the mothers and sons who lost their parents. This is about the teachers who gave their lives protecting these kids. And it fucking sucks. And I think all that we can do is to make things a little bit harder for people like Alex Jones while also, you know, doing our best to be, to also walk with kindness. You know what I mean? Like, if there's one thing that this has taught me, it's, you know, I mean, the parents are just so courageous. They're there in courtroom every day. Alex is hiding in Texas. And they're not even, on days they're not testifying, they're showing up to the

courtroom. And that is just like, that level of courage is something that I will never know. I hope to never have to know. And so, you know, I just, I have all the love and all the respect in the world for those people. That's all I gotta say. That's definitely something that even though we, you know, we bring attention to that, it can never be said enough. Absolutely. Absolutely. What they actually, that brings to my mind, I wanted to bring this up because I forgot to ask you about this, but there was on our subreddit, our fan subreddit, Mark did post a proof of life picture. Yeah. Were you around when there was a confrontation with the? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Why this jogged into my mind was because, you know, you're talking about like the courage of

showing up, these families showing up every day at court, you know, there is the emotional courage of being there in this really difficult, horrific setting. And then there is also just the real, like literal physical courage of the risk of being accosted by somebody like this. Yeah. So what happened? So it was related to me peeling the finger off. I didn't realize so many people were going to get fucking triggered by me undefacing your property. So I am not 100% sure, but the running theory is that it was Corey Sklenka who was Wolfgang Hall Biggs driver in Connecticut and that he might have just driven up there to see something. So I ripped the sticker down, Mark is next to me. I take a photo of it and he's smoking a cigarette and very aggressively,

he tells me to move on, tells both of us, keep walking, move on. Oh, so this was your fault? Well, yeah. So then as we were walking into the courthouse, the guy is walking in behind us and starts saying some things to Mark and I believe says to Mark, fuck you, bitch. At that point, I sort of loudly said in front of the bailiffs that I said, you know, looks like somebody is grumpy this morning. But then he just, he kind of took off. We let, you know, they let security know. He kind of ran away, I guess, but. I like that you're a pterodactyl lamp in the Flintstones in this scenario. Somebody's grumpy. Just try to keep it light, you know. My last words before I get my ass beat.

Somebody's grumpy. My nose gets broken. I do appreciate Mark just has that way of bringing it out of people. Absolutely. Mark can really get under people's skin and make them want to throw it, take a swing. But to be fair, it seems like the inciting incident was the sticker. That's true. This wasn't even about Mark. No, no, no, no. You're lucky. You survived. I guess. I guess. Who cares? Who cares? Yes. That is the other way that we get through the abyss. Yeah. I mean, in terms of your all's experience, yeah, it is a who cares. But like at the same time, you know, if it is in fact the case that this was like this guy who was a Wolfgang, how big associate, right? And, you know, we're hearing on the stand that Wolfgang is reaching out to these

Info Wars people and like essentially harassing them now. Right. As the trial is going on, like there is a reality to this that's like, that's still, you know, I don't want to say luckily, it was directed at you. But like, you know, it was all. I mean, it was worse. Yeah. It was, it was directed at Mark, too. And I think between the two of us, we would have been fine. I'm at the plural of you, right? You too. Right, right, right. As opposed to like a family member. What's crazy, right? It's crazy for how big is that this is a man who's lived most of his life believing that the TV is talking to him to all of a sudden have Norm look at the TV on trial, be like, Wolfgang, if you're listening to me right now, what kind of insane world?

Yeah, exactly. That's ridiculous. And that's a weird thing for Norm to have done. Yes, that is a fucked up thing for him to have done. I wonder, I wonder if it does come across as better to be like, I'm not going to directly communicate with him. I'm just going to say this through the medium of the stream or that seems like you should take care of that. That day, Wolfgang, after the Austin trial, he's, he's left me a couple of voicemails, which is just the rambling, you know, sad bullshit that you would expect it to be. Sure. But one of the days of the trial, I get an email from Wolfgang, not to me directly. Wolfgang just sends it to FBI agents. Everybody. Everybody. Yeah. So I'm on his newsletter,

you know, his mailing list. Oh, that's fun. And and the email. Click on subscribe for that one. Well, I keep an eye on it. I like even an eye on it. Does he use Mailchip? Yeah. So that's a good segue into. No, but he, the email was about how the Connecticut governor lied to him about Sandy Hook. He's still doing this, you know, he's still doing this even the day of testimony in the second defamation trial. It's crazy. Even after he has lost these, these suits, you know, like yourself. Well, and, and his family, you know, like no, no one wants anything to do with him. He does have the ultimate freedom of literally having nothing left to lose. Yeah. You know, you're, you're pot committed. But that's also that is

going back to what we're saying. That is the danger, right? When you have nothing left to lose, you know, so. Yep. Well, fingers crossed, he finds something that he doesn't want to lose, I guess. That's not a great, not a great summation. Is this how we're going to end it? Click. Yeah. Bye. Oh God. I guess I just started to get into a like negative thought spiral about like, I don't know, maybe get a hobby. I was thinking may the wolf choke on his flesh, but there are other opinions. That's a good toast. Maybe he'll do woodworking. Maybe he'll be eaten by a wolf. I don't know. Up to you. Well, either one sounds fine. Yes. Sebastian, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a delight. It was really great

meeting you down in Austin. And absolutely. I love you boys and just have all the fucking respect in the world for what you guys do. And we definitely appreciate your coverage of the trial. Yes. Yes. It is great to have more voices saying put the parents and families and all that at the forefront of everybody keeping that absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Great deal of respect to you for that. Thank you so much, man. There's a slight chance I might come down to Austin again. I don't think I'm going to do it. I admire you being able to go to these trials, but that was there was too exhausting for me. Yeah. Well, let's we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We're going to come to Austin. Oh, shut up. No, you just want us to fucking suffer

with you. You need somebody at the bar. That is exactly what I want. I know. Those are exactly my intentions. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. All right. Well, I'll see you boys soon. All right. Andy and Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Hello, Alex. I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.