Knowledge Fight - #781: Chatting With Will Sommer

Episode Date: February 27, 2023

Today, Dan and Jordan sit down with Daily Beast reporter Will Sommer to discuss his new book, Trust The Plan: The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy That Unhinged America.  Also, Dan has some really good advice for the band Nelson.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge fight, Dan and George knowledge fight, need money, Andy and Kansas, stop it, Andy and Kansas, it's time to pray, Andy and Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. I'm a huge fan. I love your word, knowledge fight, knowledge fight. I love you. Hey, everybody, welcome back to knowledge fight. I'm Dan, I'm Jordan, like sit around, worship at the altar of Celine and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Oh, indeed we are Dan, Jordan, quick question. Yeah. What's your bright spot today, buddy? My bright spot today is I have rekindled my love of Sonic. I was telling you just before we started recording that I need to

stop ordering Sonic. Yes. But there is one we are not talking about Sonic the hedgehog to be clear. We are talking about Sonic the restaurant. Although there's overlap because Sonic loves chili dogs. You are right. And the thing that I love at Sonic is the fact that they will deliver a chili dog. You're a hedgehog. Yep. I'm very fast. I love rings. I'm constantly both onion and non. I'm constantly being plagued by an evil scientist named Eggman. There's a lot of overlap to you. But yeah, I have recently been eating a ton of Sonic and man, it's just great. It's a dark bright spot, though, because I need to stop. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, there is a little bit of the man heroin is great in that. Have you tried it? It is good. I got to quit, but

I'm telling you good stuff. It's good stuff. It works for what they say it's going to do. You know, it promises and it delivers. Yeah. What's your bright spot? My bright spot is Dan. As you know, I've been playing video games on the Twitch stream. You have. You've been trying to speed run. I've been trying to speed run. I've been learning it. And so far, I'm about 30 hours into a seven or eight hour speed run. And I did finally defeat a boss for people who know FF seven, they'll know that carry armor is a boss in the game that is difficult. Even if you are playing it casual, if you're even if you're powerful and overleveled and all that stuff, it can still be difficult. And to beat it the way that I did through trickery and exploiting the game's own resources against it. It

was an achievement. I was very happy with it. Congratulations. When you were fighting him, were you working with that guy was a gun for an arm? Yes. No, not him. That's silly guy who's got a gun. Not on this fight. No, no, no, no. I've got the guy who flies the spaceship with the spear. I don't know if I know that guy. Yeah, exactly. Sounds cool. He's pretty chill. So Jordan, today we have a little bit of a special episode. We got a guest to chat with us. And we're very thrilled to have him here. So I'd like to welcome on to the podcast from the Daily Beast political reporter, Will Summer. Thanks for joining us. And first of all, what is your bright spot? Oh, man, my bright spot is I've gotten sucked into this Netflix show. I think it's called Perfect Match. It's

kind of like Super Smash Bros. for Netflix dating shows. They bring on all the villains and they have to date one another. And it's kind of like Road Rules real world challenge, I guess. Okay, now you're talking. It's truly twisted. Like a friend of mine told me about this. And I was like, you simpleton, I don't have time for this garbage. And I guess I'll put it on for 10 minutes. And now it's, you know, five episodes in and they, I mean, it's, it's truly bizarre. And I feel very guilty that I recognize each of these characters, you know, from, from, I have to be honest, I want to, I want to end this episode right now and watch this. I didn't know this existed. Yeah, I know. I mean, do they, do they, they, I mean, if you're describing it as like the real world

world rules challenge, something I still cannot say without difficulty. There are competitions, then they have to both date each other and like run up a hill fast or very mild competitions. I mean, the ultimate competition is finding love really. And, you know, they, they have these moments where they keep adding people to the house from, you know, it's like, oh, it's, it's Bartice from love is blind. And so then there's kind of musical chairs where people have to pair up by the end of the night or get banished from the house. And so there's a lot of like, it gets very intense, like, you know, it's like the three people who aren't picked or sitting on the couch, and they're like, well, I guess I find you least objectionable, you know, would you like to come

to my room? And it really is, it's kind of like a hunger games feel to it. Right. So it combines the misery of being unpopular in high school with the misery of being the last chosen to be on your dodgeball team in junior high. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's, and of course, you know, Nick Lachey is hosting. So I mean, of course, Nick Lachey is hosting. Of course, Nick Lachey is hosting. Former husband of Jessica Simpson. That's right. Writer of the greatest Disney song, the one that plays over the end credits have moved on. Do you remember that video that 98 degrees have? I think there was that song, This I Promise You. It was like a really romantic song. And the video was like really sincerely romantic. And then I

think at the end, it's revealed that the dude is like is screech. I think screech. It's Diamond Dustin. That's his wrestler name. Diamond Dustin Page. The DDP. If I were Nick Lachey, I would have vetoed that. I'm looking at this because I didn't, I've never heard of this, this show and it sounds fantastic. I'm looking at this and I'm seeing like just a list of shows that these people are from that I have never heard of. I don't think I would recognize any of these people. Well, it's, you know, they, they have kind of some of the more famous ones. So like Love is Blind or the Circle. And then they have Sexy Beast, which I don't know if you guys remember this. This is where people were, they went on gangster movie in the early

odds. It's an homage to Ben Kingsley's performance. I want to say that was Ben Kingsley's gangster movie in the early odds. Ben Kingsley is on the show. Get rid of Nick Lachey. I want Sir Ben Kingsley. Kingsley is a contestant. So in this show, they, they dress up in basically fur suits. So it's like you're dressed up as a dolphin and you go on a date. The, I mean, they really run the gamut. It's, they really kind of scrape the bottom of the barrel from some of the lesser known shows. Nice. I think, I hope it gets another series, another season. And they dig into like some of the older dating shows, like, uh, like, uh, uh, Shipmates. Yeah. Uh, wasn't that, that's another Chris Hardwick. Yeah. Yeah. I think I said Chris Hardwick earlier today and you, yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. They made people who would not get along, uh, go on a date on a ship. Right. So they couldn't leave. Well, what was the one that, what was the other one that Hardwick hosted with, uh, Jennifer, uh, that was, uh, singled out McCarthy. Yeah. Yeah. Singled out. I remember that one because that was a TV one. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was less a dating show and more like a weird spectacle. Yeah. Whereas Shipmates, there was one episode where a guy who thought he was Chuck Norris went on a date with a lady on a boat and they hated each other so much that he threw her off a pier. It was terrible. So that is the ultimate Chuck Norris joke. And then there was another one where a guy hated the, uh, lady. He was on a date with so much

that he spent most of his time drinking, calling her a psycho. And then just being like, well, date wasn't going good. So I just went back to the casino. Ah, that's, that's a man who knows what he's doing. Such a good show. They don't like that anymore. Well, after, after discussing reality TV for quite some time, uh, I think now is the ironic time to reveal you have written a book. Yes. Yes. Uh, it's called trust the plan, uh, the rise of QAnon and the conspiracy that unhinged America. And, you know, it's sort of the culmination of five years of reporting on QAnon, uh, for me. And, um, I kind of, you know, travel across America exploring how QAnon and conspiracy theories in general have, uh, just, you know, kind of wreaked havoc all in all sorts

of different ways. So you, you said you traveled across America and I'm imagining you in like an RV, just going around finding, uh, finding anybody with a Q flag and being like, how did you choose? I also imagine you dress like Guy Fieri in the same example. Uh, sunglasses on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, how did you choose, uh, people that you would, uh, talk to or, or, or profile? Yeah. Yeah. Very good question. Well, I, I do love the idea that, you know, you see these QAnon bumper stickers and kind of Hong Kong and like, pull over. I mean, I'm like, your car is smoking. I need to help you. How did you get these beliefs? Just immediately putting a microphone in their face. Sir, could you please show me your ID and

tell me why you believe in QAnon? I mean, it was so many just, just people I encountered in my, in my reporting at the Daily Beast who were just, I, I felt like they were just so fascinating, um, that I had to write a book. And so it was, um, you know, people like Vincent Fusca, the, the guy who masquerades as JFK Jr. And you know, goes to these things and everyone says, oh my God, it's JFK Jr. And he drove me crazy because I thought this guy knows he's not JFK Jr. You know, he's constantly dodging me, um, and saying like, well, maybe I'll talk about that later. And then, you know, dodging my, my messages. Um, and then, you know, kind of getting heated whenever there would be a rival impersonator and say, like, you've seen this guy. Uh, and so,

or, uh, or, or Austin Steinbart, this kind of Q, I, I say Q impersonator as though we all know Q is a real guy whose memory shouldn't be tarnished. Um, you know, he, he, he kind of set up a compound out in the desert in Arizona. And, um, this woman called me and said, my sister has been sucked into Austin Steinbart's orbit. Uh, can you get her out? And so I traveled out there and, uh, kind of hung out with the, his crew. Um, and you know, the FBI got involved and they had a bunch of guns and it's a very, um, there's a lot packed into the book. And, you know, I, I'm glad I'm on Knowledge Fight because you guys know the mix of, you guys know the mix of kind of like tragedy and comedy that goes into these conspiracy theories and these movements, um, is really a sort of a

rich thing to cover. Yeah. There's a, there's a surreality that, uh, you know, it's hard not to appreciate, but at the same time, the pathos. Yeah. No, when you, when you go through the, uh, the, uh, personal stories, a lot of the testimonials, a lot of the histories that people have with their families and all these things, I think you do a really good job of both recognizing and, and like putting forward that, yes, these are ridiculous theories. Well, at the same time, presenting a very good, uh, recognition that these people are also victims of, of QAnon and, uh, and that kind of situation. So a lot of your paragraphs do have a bit of knowledge fight to them. And so far as it's like, uh, look at this sad thing and here's why it's funny. And this is a sad thing. And here's,

you know, it's, it's fascinating. Yeah. You have to go back and forth because, you know, it is so ridiculous on its face. I mean, a guy who read it recently was saying, you know, reminded him of Terry Pratchett, just how, how off the wall it is. And then, then you have to say, well, you know, this is sad, you know, this person's going to lose their house or they alienated everyone close to them. But at the same time, you have to say, but it is also really crazy, you know, and that you just can't make this stuff up. That guy's not actually JFK Jr. I don't know why I've ever needed to say that before in my life, but I do today. Yeah, there's, there's a tough balance of like trying to be, uh, like entirely hostile to the ideas and the people who maybe profit off the

ideas to the expense at the expense of other people while, uh, expressing empathy for the people who are, are, uh, taken for that ride. Yeah. And that's, uh, yeah. And Will, can I, can I ask you, because I think the book does, uh, does a fairly good job or does a good job of making it clear. But, I think I would like to hear from you. Like there is a through line through so many of these personal stories, right? Of, of, uh, of loss of some sort. Like, could you talk a little bit about how many or, or how similar a lot of these stories are? Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of times when someone gets into QAnon or another conspiracy theory in a really hardcore enough way that I end up writing about them, um, you can kind of, there's often sort of a key that unlocks it and you can, you can

sort of see the path and often they identify it. They'll say, well, this thing happened to me and that's why QAnon appealed to me. Um, you know, for example, one guy who ended up in the Austin Steinbart group, he had this kind of crazy disease. I think he had cancer, um, and ended up on disability and, or couldn't get his disability approved. He couldn't work. So he's kind of angry at the world and the government. And then he discovers QAnon and says, well, wait, you know, no wonder this world was so screwed up. It's because of this cabal. Um, or, you know, someone like, uh, wrote about a woman who got into QAnon during the pandemic and she was sort of cut off from everyone and, you know, she was sort of shut in. Um, and then as a result, you know, she was

an easy mark for QAnon. So often there is kind of this, um, or there's sort of an eccentricity. This person's into, uh, really deep into Bitcoin. They have all these kind of internet enthusiasm and then some, then QAnon comes in and they, you know, again, really go off the deep end for that. Well, so many, uh, things like that, like they, they, they are launching points. So, uh, perfectly. Cause QAnon, uh, and much like a lot of other conspiracies can, uh, metastasize to, to accommodate things. Like if you're super into Bitcoin, then it's like, well, let me tell you about Nessara. Yeah. Yeah. You know, or, uh, the, the, the financial system conspiracies or, you know, if it's so good to be, I feel like I'm amongst my people,

someone who just casually drops a Nessara. Yeah. Terry Gross isn't bringing Nessara to y'all. I'll tell you that right now. Take that NPR. I just saw your budget guys. I'm really sorry. Uh, but that's, that's what I find. So like it's, it's so, I don't even know what the right word is, but it's, it's so, yeah, accommodating of what is plaguing people that it's, that's an interesting aspect of its danger. And I mean, and that's kind of the genius of QAnon and, and so many of these other kind of

conspiracy theories we have going now is that they're really big tent movements. And in the case of QAnon, the clues are so vague that you can kind of make it about whatever you want. You can say, um, you know, well, this, oh, this was predicting the pandemic or, you know, this was predicting, uh, the Chinese balloons or really whatever you want. Um, from people I talked to, and, and in particular with, with QAnon and the, the Nessara aspect that's been built into it, you know, they have this kind of utopian vision for after the storm, after Donald Trump kind of sees his power and, uh, you know, imposes a fascist America. Um, I was like, they don't see it that way. Uh, but that, you know, debts will be abolished or if you rent a house, you'll own it. And so,

you know, if you're just kind of, or, um, you know, if you have a ton of credit card debt and you're, you can't realize you'll never be able to afford a house, there's like a very personal appeal to that. Or if you want to just declare yourself the queen of Canada, you can do that. Yes. I mean, that's, of course, the, yeah, the QAnon queen of Canada, uh, HRH, uh, Romana de Dulo, uh, you know, the, you know, there is that sense of, you know, if you're kind of alienated from the system and you just say, you know what, I'm going to stop paying my utility bills. This is not a legitimate government. I, you know, I swear allegiance to the queen. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but to be fair, Canada does, you know, they still have

some respect for the queen of England. Well, no, they do still swear allegiance to the queen. Yeah. They put themselves in a position for another usurper to come along and declare themselves the rightful. If you still have a king or queen, that means that I could eventually become your king or queen. I think that's the rule. If I kill your king. All of your systems are fragile. Yeah. That's the way it is. Well, I wanted to ask you, uh, what do you feel like? Cause there's, there's a lot of, as we've talked about with the QAnon, you know, there's a lot of malleability. There's a lot of ability for it to absorb things that seem unrelated into QAnon. What is it that makes

the QAnon thing different from so many of these other conspiracy theories? Sure. I mean, I think it's a couple of things. I think the, the clues aspect, the idea of this guy named Q, who's kind of dropping all these, these, what they call breadcrumbs. The game aspect of it. Exactly. And so you can, you know, you're part of this broader movement and everyone is in discord, it's kind of baking together, as they say, and kind of figuring it all out. Um, that, you know, and there's also this aspect of, you know, the point is you're, you're trying to even evangelize and you're trying to kind of spread the word in the, what they call the great awakening. So that when, you know, Tom Hanks is cuffed for,

for drinking children's blood, um, that there won't be a civil war, you know, that you're trying to spread the word amongst, uh, all your neighbors. So it's, it's more active and there's more of this kind of climactic moment in the storm than, you know, if you're just getting into, let's say JFK assassinations and you say, okay, I spent 10 years on this and I think I figured it out, but you know, kind of doesn't go anywhere from there. But whereas there's, there's kind of like, you know, you're, you're, you're going to take on the boss level. There, there isn't like an idyllic utopianism after, uh, the fact with, with something like a JFK. Right. Exactly. I mean, all these sort of conspiracy theories people can get into,

whereas QAnon is, um, you know, it's a fun game and, and it's a community and, uh, some day in their imagining, you know, we'll all live in paradise together and, and the people who, who help bring it about will be, you know, highly favored. You know what I'm thinking about right now, when you're saying that, you know, the stuff with the, like the idyllic state afterwards, and they call it the storm. Right. I don't understand why the band Nelson hasn't tried to like really make a comeback because after the rain would be a perfect QAnon song. Well, little dragon did, uh, an after the rain as well. So you can't get those mixed up, but it's not nearly as like rockin as Nelson. You are very, it's a different song completely. I

agree. Is one of the Nelson brothers dead? Is that maybe one? I don't know. I know nothing about Nelson. Nelson with the guys with the long blonde hair. Is that right? Oh yeah. And I think they were twins. You know, I think you make an interesting point. I mean, there's a lot of kind of like homegrown QAnon music. Um, and, you know, whether it be, you know, I talked to a QAnon promoter who got into it because he was like the QAnon DJ, like he would do the, the electronica. Um, whereas you, you have plenty of acoustic guitar guys and all that. Um, but, but even in QAnon, that was my number one reason to join QAnon is no more guitar guys. Yeah. No more of this. I'm going to play Wonderwall shit. Now I got, now it's everywhere. I do like the idea though of like the QAnon DJ,

and there's all these like boomer moms and aunts and uncles. And it's just a guy. You know, it's crazy. The only song that transcends all boundaries, even QAnon. Hey, hey, still kills, still kills at QAnon. You know, you hear that come on and it just takes you back to 2003. Trying to make a song parody out of this. Can't do it. Nope. You cannot do it. Shake it like a Polaroid picture of Tom Hanks drinking blood. You got to get the meter right. Yeah. So well, the, the one thing that I keep coming back to whenever I was going through the book is I want to tell you will Jordan has multiple pages of notes in front of him. I have extensive notes. But something that really stuck out to me. We all know social media is, is involved with this.

We all know that they bear some responsibility for it. I think you do a great job of outlining all of the different connections of where people find this place. Because for a lot of us, we think, oh, they must be going to YouTube. They must be going to stuff like that. But it's really a lot, just Facebook, isn't it? Oh, so much of it is just, I mean, the, so the Q clues are posted, you know, on, on like eight coups. So it's sort of the, the sewers of the internet. But the reality is that, you know, most QAnon believers have never interacted with those sites and, and bothered to, you know, kind of sort through all the, the, the anime and the porn and the anime porn, right? So they, they, they end up on stuff like Facebook or YouTube. And, and sometimes it, you know,

a lot of times that even it, it isn't like, all right, you know, the Facebook group isn't called like number one QAnon fans, you know, it's called, you know, disturbed about the corruption, you know, and people are, are, are inducted into it in these, these ways that, you know, I compare it to Scientology where you have to be in it for a while before they tell you about Xenu and, and the aliens and all this stuff where for, you know, when you talk to a QAnon believer, they'll usually say, well, you know, I, I just don't like the corruption or, you know, I'm concerned about some government transparency issues. And then you say, well, kind of, well, what do you mean about that? And they'll, they'll say, well, I mean, the transparency about how they, you know, drink

children's blood. Right, right. That is, I mean, it would be nice if they were more transparent about that. But I can understand why you don't want to share that with too many people. You know, it's not something that you want on your voting record. Like, oh, I'm pro drinking children's blood. I get it. I think I'm sorry. I was absent for a second there. I was making sure that the Nelson twins were still alive. They are. And guys, if you're listening, Matthew Gunner, co-op QAnon, you'll have a business opportunity for you. You've got to just change the lyrics to after the storm. It's perfect. It's right there. Anyway, sorry. Yeah. No, but you, you, I mean, there's one thing that I keep coming that, that like sticks in my craw, though, is that you keep

calling it Facebook's algorithm. And to me, that kind of drives me a little bit insane, because it's not Facebook doesn't have an algorithm. It's an algorithm made by people. You know, so for, for a lot of that, I feel like I get stuck in the weeds of why isn't, why are we calling it Facebook's algorithm? Is it because corporations are people? You know, that's a great point. The, the idea that, you know, I do think sometimes it gets chalked up to, oh, it's just that dang computer, you know, oh, wow. Yeah. No, there's a person's face behind that algorithm ruining our lives. Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, the, you know, I think the value of the talk about this in the book is these, these Facebook leaks showed that Facebook knew that the way that they

had set up the website, you know, if you just liked Ben Shapiro or Tucker Carlson's Facebook pages, then suddenly it would say, well, you know, then you'll really like, you know, Q Cabal Slayer's, this group. So, you know, it, it is the, you know, for a while, these group, these websites were afraid to, oh, well, we, you know, we don't want to put a finger on the scale and ban conservative groups. But I think it's more reason, you know, it's not a huge ass to say, well, can you not actively recruit for QAnon by pushing people towards these groups? Yeah. I mean, that's a good, that's a good point. Why aren't we regulating the algorithm? Why are we always constantly talking about, oh, free speech or anything along those lines and not an ignoring that this is being driven by

something? Yeah, exactly. I mean, it really isn't that, you know, with so many people, they, they say, you know, I just load up YouTube and, you know, I click around a couple of things and then suddenly it's, it's pushing me into, into like a hearing about Wayfair trafficking children, stuff like that. Right, right, right. Brutal. Which we have still not got to the bottom. I, you know, you never know. Someday, someday we may. I don't know, I don't know if I talked about this, but when that happened, the Wayfair conspiracy, it was right after I had ordered a couch from Wayfair. Oh, yeah. And it hadn't been delivered yet, right when everything broke down. Right. I felt really uncomfortable. And you thought, you know, wonder if this was $25,000.

I thought I was going to get, get in some hot water. I thought I was going to get investigated by all the little bakers out there. I mean, that really is all it takes, you know, like, I mean, if there were, you know, somehow you had a picture of a Wayfair box in the background, they'd say, look at this sicko. You know, I mean, I said once that I, I go to Comet Ping Pong, and then ever since then they have, they kind of made a little meme of, you know, look at this sicko. And I was seeing somebody, a woman who lived and lives still in DC and I came to visit, and we went to Comet Ping Pong, almost just as a, just to try and bait some kind of a outrage or something. And it turns out the pizza was fantastic.

Oh, no, it's great. I mean, I talk about this in the book. I, when you do, I, you know, I, yeah, I went to Comet Ping Pong before Pizza Gate happened. And, you know, one night I was just seeing all my conservatives that I follow tweeting about Comet Ping Pong. And I thought, these guys aren't so bad, you know, we got similar tastes. Maybe we have some common ground. And then, then I thought, wait a minute. And, and, and obviously they had much more of a level of intention. Yeah, I was pretty surprised by, uh, like, I just expected kind of like, man, but to decent pizza, pretty good. Yeah. No, it's good. And they got some dipping sauces. I mean, it's a legit operation. I do understand kind of why you'd get freaked out

by the bathrooms though. The door does not make sense. I have, I have been there and I've been, you know, I asked the waiter, where's the bathroom? And then you kind of get there and it's like, am I an idiot? I can't figure this out. You know, it's just a wall. Yeah, it's kind of like a sliding door situation. Um, did you ever, uh, see, uh, Jack Pasobic's video of him going to Comet Ping Pong? Oh yeah. That's really what, what set me off on it in large part was, was this idea that, you know, I'm going to go in and investigate Comet Ping Pong. And I thought, well, you know, it's just a, it's just a restaurant. Uh, and of course now he's, you know, he was at the forefront of that. And now him and these guys like Mike Cernovich will say,

Oh, it's so unfair. Everyone brings up pizza gate when it comes to me. You know, you think, well, yeah, it's kind of your claim to fame. Yeah. Before anyone knew who you were, you were almost crying, uh, out of fear because you didn't get your garlic knots. It would be a little bit like if Milly Vanilly were like, all people remember us for is that time we were doing the lip syncing thing. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, that's what it is. You got it. Okay. Oh yeah. I was just going to say, I mean, yeah, more, you know, just covering this beat in general, I'll have conservatives call me up and these personalities and say, Oh, you know, everyone holds all these awful things I've said against me, uh, that I've said against me, you know, and this is

ruined my life. And I think, you know, you can be sympathetic on some small way, but at the same time, you know, that's why people tend not to try to whip up hatred against minority groups, because it's not a nice thing to do. And then suddenly, you know, that they kind of want it to, uh, I'll just go back to normal. So you said that you got some, uh, flack for, uh, you know, saying you like, I'm ping pong. Um, have there been other things that you've done that have gotten queuing on to like, Oh, well, one of them, because I remember there was like something a while back with like people who wore red shoes or something like that. Has, have you ever, uh, run afoul of anything nonsensical like that? That's kind of fun. I have to live, live my life in some bizarre

ways to avoid doing exactly that. I mean, yeah. I mean, as you said, the red shoes thing, you know, they, they are convinced that anyone who wears red shoes is a, you know, you're signaling, you know, it's like your blood drenched shoes. And so they'll get pictures of like Dilmar and red sneakers. And I like, look at this guy, you know, symbolism will be his downfall. Um, you know, in this case, uh, you know, uh, I try to avoid pizza at all costs, certainly being photographed with it. Uh, this friend of mine, we were, we were at a sort of a summer share house and he brought a big inflatable pizza slice. And I said, do not get that anywhere near Instagram. That picture of me, that is not happening. Um, because they're just going to say, you know, he's

flaunting it. He's throwing it in our faces. Oh man. Your friends do not even know the amount of life threatening bullshit. They just put you in whatever they have a inflatable pizza nearby. Get that away from me. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Are you trying to get me killed? It's so weird that like that could just be in, in like more normal circumstances. That could be a fun way for you to troll, you know, or something. But there is a legitimate, I guess, concern of like your life could be threatened. I'm going to end up doxxed. I'm going to end up on the wrong side of somebody showing up at my house. Yeah. Well, I mean, and you know, really, you just have to, um, you know, I mean, the sad reality is, you know, especially with so many guns in

America, it, you know, it only takes one person to, um, you know, as we've seen with other QAnon murders, you, you know, it only takes one, one wacko to, uh, to, you know, make things really serious. Yeah. And, uh, that's, that's kind of tragic because it's a perfect opportunity to do some funny trolling, but the, the, the stakes of it are, you know, you live in a place where it's like, well, is it worth it? Yeah. It's not. Yeah. I mean, you don't, the two of you, but I'm willing to die for a shitty joke. I'll go for it. That's true. I've lived my life that way. Yeah. Jordan's going to get a big pizza slice tattoo on his chest. You don't even know how much I drink children's blood. I drink all of it. I'm going to join the band Nelson.

That is my backup plan. If this whole podcasting thing falls, falls through. Um, well, I did want to, there is, there is a part of the book where you talk about a few examples of people who have left. Um, could you talk a little bit more about that? Because a lot of in the book, it is kind of like, uh, there is just some people realize that they're being lied to. Yeah. I mean, it is so, it's so sort of personal for each person. And, and you know, this comes up, uh, because people will email me and say, you know, how do I get my spouse or my, my, my son or my, my relative? How do I get them out of QAnon? And, you know, it's a heartbreaking question because number one, you know, I should, there should be a better system than emailing me. Um, and, you know,

also there's not really any easy answer. Um, but from the people who have gotten out of it, it's usually some very specific thing. I mean, there was a guy, one of the, you know, what they call the Q proofs, which are supposed to be how, how you prove QAnon is real. So for example, there was one that they don't call them cubes, right? I like this. I, you know, I think you're giving them too many good ideas between that and the Nelson stuff. Um, the, uh, the, the idea that we'll punch up any conspiracy theory for free. That's one of the problems with us is that we give all this, like Alex Jones, if he listened to our advice, he would be in a much better place. We just do so much punch up on

terrible conspiracies. Yeah. We'd be so good at evil. You're watching the broadcasting and you're just like, all right, this guy's got no charisma. He's got to go. Fire him. Get a new one. Um, but yeah, I mean, in terms, so for example, so one of them was that they interpreted that Q had said, Trump will say tippy top at the Easter egg roll. And so then he said that and, and they said they, oh my God, you know, Q's real. Well, you know, you can go back years and Trump is constantly saying tippy top. I mean, it's like him saying, you know, huge or telling a story about someone calling him sir. But you know, when they package this in this way, it's very compelling. Well, there's ex Q and on guy, he sees a video, uh, debunking this. And suddenly that just kind

of flipped the gears in his head and he goes, wait a minute, if that's fake, what else is fake? And then it kind of sends him down the a more positive rabbit hole out of it. Um, but really for, for all these people, it's very individual and, um, you know, the advice is to maintain the relationship with someone until they hit that moment. But you know, that's easier said than done. Do you, do you think that there is anything, um, that sort of has like connective tissue between people who make that, uh, like find that moment? Like is, is there some commonality? Like it's, it's, yeah, if there's so much in common about how people start in Q and on, is there a similar through line in how people leave Q and on? Yeah. You know, from the people I talked to,

it's always someone who didn't really like being a Q and on and they, they sort of felt it was their duty. Like I talked to this one woman who said, um, you know, it was just sort of a horrible fact that I had to acknowledge that this was the fate of the world, but I really wasn't happy about it. Um, whereas a lot of these Q and on people seem to just find, say, Oh yeah, you know, I'm a digital soldier now, you know, we're, we're these crusaders for God and we're, oh, I hate these Democrats so much anyway. And it turns out they're all these sickos. Whereas in the case of people who leave often they, they almost, they, they spend a lot of time trying to debunk Q and on, because they, they want to, they, they want to believe that it isn't real, even though they're

convinced for a while that it is, and then they come out and they're trapped in it by their own need to disprove it. They believe it. Exactly. Exactly. And then they spend all this time saying, you know, oh, this, this awful thing, this has to be fake, right? And for a while they just can't disprove it. And then when they do, they, they feel this real sense of relief. That makes sense. Yeah. And it is also a bummer. It's a super huge bummer. But it does speak to something that you kind of talk about at the end of the book. And even we've touched on here with how people get out of it. And how people get into it is where else were they supposed to go? These are people who were fucked over

right? And reasonably they believe they were fucked over because a lot of them were. You know, you live in America. If you're, you're always one fucking hospital bill away from bankruptcy. And then, then they are given this idea that, okay, it's the government's fault, but nobody's intervening to help them in any direction. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, you're hitting on something, which is the, the role that like really serious medical issues or medical debt plays, I think in driving so many people into QAnon or other sort of fringe beliefs. Because as you said, I mean, these are people who, you know, are raised with this belief that, you know, this is not just this,

the incredibly cutthroat country. And if you get one wrong turn, your life is going to be ruined. And then they find that that is the case. That's not an unreasonable belief, you know. Well, right, right, right. No. And then suddenly they, they hit this kind of skid. And then often through no fault of their own or, you know, they have a drug issue or a mental illness issue. And then suddenly they find themselves abandoned with the exception of the QAnon community, which is more than happy to welcome them and say, you know, this is not just the abysmal state of life. And you're just going to have to deal with it. But they say, well, actually, there are these specific people to blame. And the good news is that, let's say you have cancer and you can't,

you don't have insurance to get treatment. The good news is that pretty soon Trump is going to defeat the cabal and we'll get a cure. And, you know, everything's going to be great. After the rain, we'll have med beds. That's true. Exactly. Oh, of course. Yes. Med beds would be our great example here. Right. I mean, but again, who else is giving them anything? Who is giving them any hope beyond QAnon? I mean, seemingly not really anybody. I mean, you know, perhaps, perhaps churches, I mean, there's a huge overlap here between, you know, some very like kind of charismatic evangelical movements and QAnon.

So maybe going to churches isn't the first place. Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, there's no, you know, these are people who are falling through the cracks, like, you know, and pretty reasonably so because they're just finding themselves that there's no, there's no social safety net to catch them. Yeah. I mean, the, I keep coming back to the, to so many parts of this book make me feel like these people never had a chance. It is not, I mean, there's so much of this book to me that I read through. And the pathos I have is towards all of these people who are, are swept up in this, that they had no, no control over. Oh yeah. I mean, so many people in it who either,

you know, just, just face huge amounts of debt or, you know, have some mental illness that ideally would be treated and instead they're kind of just shunted off to live with their parents until they, you know, in the case of one guy allegedly murder a mafia boss or, you know, all these different things that are kind of just, they just sort of spin out into the world. But how much of that is infantilizing people? You know, I wonder, I mean, you didn't read the book. How much, how much of it, like saying that people don't have a choice or don't have a chance, it, like people's circumstances greatly can influence them and make them in a place where

it makes more sense for them to go down these roads. But offering somebody false hope doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a choice of like accepting that maybe situations are bleak. Right. Okay. So then, so then your choice is between false hope and just accepting that there's nothing you can do about the miseries of the world. Oh, maybe not nothing you can do, but there is no magical, right. Silver Bullity solution. Right. I'm just, I'm just adding in this, this, when this is happening, when these people are fucked over. And then they go to QAnon, when they're fucked over is the point of intervention. That makes sense. Yeah. You know, we're fighting the symptom of us not intervening towards anybody doing any good.

Sure. You know, I think that's, I mean, that's a great point. Obviously, a lot of people face hard issues in their lives and do not become QAnon believers, fortunately, or in particular, do not sort of act out in the ways of the most extreme QAnon believers. But, you know, at the same time, I do think it is certainly valuable to understand, you know, what drives people to it. And I think the point of intervention, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. I mean, because we obviously know beyond the shadow of any reasonable doubt, when a human being could have that arguing with these people is not the way to go. Yeah, that is certainly the case. I mean, you know, the, I talked to people in the book who, you know, said, okay, you know, I'm going to gear

up and I'm going to become the ultimate QAnon debunker and I'm going to sit my kid down and run him through it and then we'll just leave this QAnon thing in the past. But, you know, it's, you know, I was talking to someone who said, well, you know, just show them the FBI statistics about human trafficking. It's not as widespread as people think. And then they'll say, well, let me tell you about the FBI, you know, I mean, they're, you know, and, you know, you can go on and on. Whereas people, you know, at the same time, they'll see some guy with a rumble channel as the most honest person out there. Well, I mean, he's not beholden to the MSM, right? You know, right. But I mean, you know, that seems to me then based upon what we're saying is like the

best way to stop QAnon is a single payer, you know, like it is, it is a situation where we're describing the byproduct of our inability as a society to function. Yeah, I mean, and as you said, I mean, that sort of ends up being my conclusion as sort of ineffective as that is. It's sort of just to say, well, I sure wish America was nicer to people. Hopefully that'll happen. But probably not. Right. Yeah. But isn't that like it? I think that's so true of a lot of the kind of more nefarious ends of conspiracy, you know, like QAnon or otherwise is is the ultimate solutions to them have nothing to do really with the conspiracy itself. There's a more grounded problem that's being fictionally solved by the conspiracy theory.

Yeah, I've I've I've thought of one solution. Oh, I thought of a solution. Nobody's going to like it. But I bet I bet I'm not. So here is what I feel like people are doing wrong. By debunking and fact checking, you are not giving these people what they want, which is learning. And I think what we should do is teach them about a real conspiracy theory and what it takes to prove it and give them an idea of what the burden of proof actually is for a conspiracy theory. I think personally, doesn't sound fun. I think personally, we should spend all of our time telling people about how Bush and Blair and people conspired to lie us into a war in Iraq. That's a real conspiracy. Do you know what I'm saying? So if we taught people how to

prove that happened, then we would also give them an idea of how to prove when conspiracies didn't happen. I think that's going to go off track. And you're just going to end up with them being like, wow, Tony Blair, there's a person I didn't realize also drinks blood. Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, I'm adding them to the list. Well, while I respect that as a as a response, you know, we've tried arguing, right? The only thing we haven't tried is teaching people. We'll see, Jordan. Here's my problem. I think that we're really, really good at coming up with advice for the nefarious actors. I'm not sure we have the best solutions for the other side. I don't know. Nobody's tried it before. I would like to see how it works,

because I do think it would work brainstorm. Yeah, I think no, I would be surprised. I mean, because it's the thing that we all ignore. Like it's the biggest conspiracy theory that none of us ever talk about. It's never brought up in the media now. It's rarely ever discussed. But the past 20 years of our life have been dominated by a small conspiracy of people who lied us into Iraq. You know, I think you make a good point here, which is that, you know, so many of the, obviously these conspiracy theories like you and I are, and you guys often get into the background of what is sort of the kernel of truth at the heart of these things. But they are driven. I mean, you know, I don't want to say, you know, no, the government's always nice to everyone. You know,

how could you possibly think that or that, you know, there aren't conspiracies or there aren't like really weird disturbing things in the news. And obviously these then kind of become the seeds that grow into the pathways for people to get into these conspiracy theories. Right. So my question then is, if people were held accountable for the real conspiracies, would these fake ones be able to prosper as well? Well, now, now you're talking about an overhaul of the implementation of international law, which might be difficult. Just our regular ones. But let's let me ask you this then. Yeah, what you're saying this as a possible solution. And it's kind of abstract. Give me a concrete example outside of taking Bush and Blair to the Hague. How would you do that? How would you

educate people about this? Like, what does that look like in practice? I mean, I suppose I would talk about not like the results like if we wound up in a war, I would talk about proving the conspiracy happened. Do you mean individually or as like a product? Like start from the beginning. No, no, no. But I mean, like talking to a person who believes in going on, you have to talk to them. So you're saying this is what you would do to talk to somebody as opposed to like, you would do a show where you prove this conspiracy, right? No, I wouldn't do that. Okay, that's not that's not useful for this individual thing. Yeah, you can't do that. Like us doing that. I mean, the dollop did a show about all of that stuff. It doesn't mean anything. You have to

talk to them individually, because they have to know and trust you. Okay, so now to de radicalize people from QAnon, you must ready yourself to prove exhaustively a conspiracy theory. Yes, absolutely. And here's why. All right. We all know that's true. And did we try and overthrow the government? No, no, we did not. Well, you know, it's an unorthodox idea. You're your every other idea has failed. So why not try the unorthodox one? Okay, so maybe this could work sometimes. Okay, but in order for this to be tried, you are now requiring everybody to give this a shot. Yes. And here's why I think everybody should really stop and think about how Bush and Blair lied us into a war. You have all two motives here in your suggestion, but that's not the

that doesn't change anything. What I keep what I keep thinking about is that these people want something. And from one side, they are getting a false version of what they want. And from the other side, they're told that there's no way to get what they want. So what is their choice then? It is it's one it doesn't even really matter, does it? I mean, beyond hurting other people, of course, which is kind of important. But they are faced with a very simple binary choice. I don't know. We'll have to stew on that. Will, you're the one that wrote the book. Fix it. No, I mean, I do think like, you know, maybe this kind of harkens back to what I said already. But but I think that there is that aspect of, you know, when things don't really get aired out

anymore in the media, as you said, like the the run up to the Iraq war, you know, people didn't say or, you know, let's say the death of Jeffrey Epstein, people say, that was really crazy. How was no one talking about this in the mainstream media? And then, you know, then they get driven to these alternative sources. But then also, isn't that kind of a misperception in and of itself? Like, yeah, they were talking about in the talked about in the mainstream media is like, that that's just a kind of a canard that that is thrown out in order to make things right more secretive than right that I always find I often maybe not always, but I often find that to not be be like a real complaint. Yeah, no, people in the media talked about Epstein in my reference

towards people not talking about Bush anymore or the the war in Iraq anymore is that it seems like so many problems can be fundamentally traced back to that. You know, who was talking about that where we should really be talking about it all the time. You know, who was talking about that? Terry Gross. Oh, I lose again. So I want to jump off this because I don't I don't know if we're ever going to find a like precise. We solve it tonight. I was I was wondering because you've traveled a lot more in these communities and talked to a lot more people. Well, is there is there anything that you've encountered that like sounded persuasive? Like anything from QAnon stuff? They're like, that's an interesting question. Yeah. Yeah, you know, that's a great question.

I'm trying to think like they definitely have an eye towards finding weird looking pictures and stuff or, you know, where I say, you know, they point to some rich guys, the, you know, the decorations in his house. And I say, well, look, I wouldn't decorate my house with that. I agree. You know, but at the same time, it's sort of sort of like, where's the there's a bit of a jump you're making to saying this guy has weird art to, you know, he eats children. And so that's sort of the gulf where it leaves me, you know, or the, you know, they're obsessed now with the great reset and this idea that the people who put on Davos are going to enslave us and make us eat bugs. Did he read the bugs? Yeah, you know, you read some of these things they say, whereas, you know,

you'll have to, you know, you'll own nothing and love it. And some random article from 2016, and they say, see, this is the plot. You know, well, okay, I guess I wouldn't really like that. But, you know, again, it's sort of the there's that missing logic that I run into, but that they're more than happy to kind of leap over that chasm. So what I'm hearing is the compliment for they have a remarkable ability to like have surface level aesthetic complaints. Yes, yes, exactly. I mean, there's certainly, you know, like, you know, they're very obsessed with Sam Smith lately and thinking that all of Sam Smith's performances are, are satanic sacrifices or who's Sam Smith? That's a musician, right? Singer. Yeah. Oh, okay. They wore a

this sort of devil horns performance at the Emmys or the Ex-Grammys. I saw some pictures. Oh, they're just saying it out loud now. They're just doing it. They're just rubbing it in our faces. And so you can look at these things and say, well, look, I mean, not the not the most aesthetically pleasing, you know, performance, perhaps, but but, you know, where, where do we get the sort of the balthazar at the Alzebub warship in there? You know, as you said, I mean, they have a very fine tuned sense of aesthetics. I mean, I don't know if anyone has ever damned with fainter praise. If I'm looking for an interior designer, my first prerequisite is going to be, are you into QAnon? That is, I will, I mean, I understand why people get mad at you about

the political stuff. But if I was in QAnon, I'd be like, that's just insulting, sir. I imagine, though, that like the flip side of it is like, if I had someone from QAnon decorate my house, it might end up like all pastel colors, it would look like in like an Easter, an Easter egg hunt in my house. Everything is soft and safe. Oh, I want to do, I wanted to ask you another question. Yeah, later on at the near the nearing the end of the book, you start talking about the way that Republican politicians and the like all knew that this was bullshit, but still tried to ride the wave or coopt it or do whatever, you know, manipulate it for their own benefits. And there's a question you ask of like, if they had intervened, if they had done something, if they had led

Republicans away, maybe things could be different. I'm wondering, do you think that if that if the Republicans had done that, they would have changed things or they would have just been eaten alive along with the rest of them? You know, that's a great, great question. I think if Donald Trump had come out and said, you know, let's say before 2020, so before QAnon really got cooking, if they had said, look, this is ridiculous, especially maybe if he had said, you know, this is a liberal Psyop, intending to embarrass Republicans, I think he probably was crazy with crazy. Yeah, you'd have to. Yeah, I don't think you could say, you know, look, Hillary Clinton's a friend of mine, she would not eat children, you know, you could say that. But but if he had just

said, you know, is sort of attacked it from from an even crazier angle, that might have stopped it. But but you're right that I don't think if Kevin McCarthy had come out and said, you know, this is ridiculous, the Republican Party is better than that. I think he probably would have just been tossed to the side in the same way that people like Liz Cheney or Adam Kinsinger were. Yeah, I think Alex started to do that a little bit too late, tried to do the like QAnon's globalist Psyop. Yeah, he only did that as a way to save face after they didn't join his team. Yeah. So I mean, the relationship between Alex and QAnon is so fascinating, where, you know, he's he's kind of on the road with them. And then, you know, he sees this as a new thing to talk about.

And then suddenly it's like him and Q look at each other and they say, well, who's in charge here, you know, and then they kind of both reach for the knives and try to take each other out. Well, yeah, he had sent Jerome Corsi to try and become like a guru of that. Yeah, that world. And then he was roundly rejected. What must that have been? I tried to interview Corsi so bad for this book. I wanted him more than anything. And he just said, nope, I'm not not interested. So he saved you from yourself. Yeah, because that would have been the most boring interview. Do you think he would have information or something interesting or even be entertaining? And it is not the case for all three. The only time I found him interesting

was something that he wasn't even really involved in. And that was when Alex said that he had a dead man switch. Yeah. And that like Corsi was going to be killed over the weekend because of some like bombshell he had. We were waiting for that one. Yeah, that never materialized. No, I did not. There's a guy in a Joseph Conrad novel who walks around with like a little bomb in his pocket. And so if anyone ever tries to arrest him, it'll go off. Sort of a dead man switch thing. And I could see Corsi getting into that, you know, just getting real crazy with it. Oh, Corsi. Yeah. Yeah, Corsi. Were there anybody anybody else that you really wanted to interview that didn't come around any of the, I mean, Q themselves? Well, yeah, certainly Q, you know,

the obviously the best argument for I think the best evidence we have is Ron and Jim Watkins. I interviewed Jim Watkins as part of the HBOQ series. And again, but, you know, as you said, I mean, I'm sure with someone like Corsi, I would love to interview him if suddenly he would say, all right, so here's the deal. Yeah, I made it all up, you know, gotta get him drunk. Well, perhaps that's an unorthodox tactic with with with Jim Watkins, where this is a guy who's wearing pizza slices on his socks. And he's got a Q pin. And I said, so, you know, you want to talk about QAnon and say, what's QAnon? You know, I mean, very kind of basic lies. You know, another person would have been Vincent Fusca, the JFK impersonator, a guy who

drove me mad with his promises to tell me to tell me the whole story. And, you know, just I would have loved to hear about, you know, what it's like having all this adoration from some sort of these boomer women who approach him and think he's JFK junior when, in fact, he's a guy who just drives around in a van plastered with Trump pictures. Yeah, from what I hear, he does a lot of cruising. He maybe uses this as a dating strategy. You know, I think that's that's very possible. That's just that's people are great sometimes. Yeah. Have you ever noticed that? They're cool. Sometimes they're just fucking great.

Just think about that. Think about that life. You're you're a random guy. And then suddenly everyone thinks you're this famous 90s sex symbol. I mean, and you're you're kind of a willing to play along with that. I mean, it would certainly upend your life. I mean, if you got nothing else to do, that is a hard, I mean, again, we get down to binary choices. You go like I could go to work tomorrow. False hope. Or I could become JFK junior. Right. It's tough choice. So I'm curious because one of the things that we hear a bit about, I mean, obviously things that are more sensational are always going to be more heard about outside of more focused

QAnon following communities. Like I would say that Jordan and I are people who have some familiarity with stuff, especially because it intersects with Alex Jones on a number of points, but we don't know a ton about QAnon. No, no, no. And so a lot of the times things that pop up are probably not indicative of the larger community, but maybe like subsection. So like obviously not everybody believes the JFK junior is still alive. Right. But there are people who do. And my question is how many people drink piss? Do you think? You know there is ballpark. You don't have to give us an exact figure because there's there's a lot of like you hear that that like it's a it's a like this popular Q adjacent homeopathic remedy

for stuff. But how prevalent is it? Do you think? Will they actually drink a piss? You know, I think some people are. I think it's a relatively marginal aspect of it. But I don't think the number is zero. You know, there's a guy kind of affiliated with them named the vaccine police, who I think is a I think has endorsed that. But I mean, yeah, like, you know, look, I got to give it up to the QAnon people here. What you got while while that definitely is a thing. I don't think it's it's super mainstream because it's supposed to be like or at least the way that some of those people sell it is like it's a remedy for the vaccine. You know, like so, I mean, yeah, you got to if you accidentally got vaccinated, you got to do something. Yeah, no, no, that's

definitely I mean, I think this vaccine police guys into that and Dr. Group Dr. Group for sure. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it is these, you know, I think that is one of those kind of homeopathic cures. And so, you know, it's not as unheard of as I as I might wish it was. Yeah, I that actually gave me a an interesting question. Do you think QAnon is going to last long enough to have its own like Protestant Reformation kind of thing where all these 95 feces of drinking? Yes, absolutely. No, no, totally. If it lasts long enough, there are so many small factions within it. You know, as you said, some people believe he's JFK Junior. Do you think it gets big enough and lasts long enough to explode into a million different versions of itself?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really already headed that way. I mean, you know, Q post occasionally, but not very much. And in the past, the QQ sort of played this like this papal like role of deciding what's in the canon and not. And so Q said the JFK Junior stuff is not QAnon. And so, you know, that didn't entirely stop it. But but people could refer to that and say, you know, okay, we don't believe in JFK Junior, where whereas now really, you can sort of do whatever you want. And so you have all these kind of mini cues popping up, you know, these just various QAnon promoters who sort of take it in different directions. I mean, obviously, a very extreme example are with a group of people who sort of camped out in Dallas looking for JFK Junior to

come back to life. And you know, one thing that's so close, you were right in that, you know, they would say, Oh, I think that guy's Tupac over there. That's Robin Williams. But the one thing that's fascinating to me is that, you know, you have what you might call like mainline or orthodox QAnon people, and they say, look at those freaks, those guys are a Psyop meant to embarrass us. We're the legitimate operation. We're respectable. Funny how that works. Yeah. But you can't argue with it really. I mean, like, I mean, you could argue with it being a like Psyop to make them look bad, but you kind of got to give it up for their aesthetic sensibility. Well, you do have to, you're right. You do often have to admit, you're like, well,

those guys do look pretty ridiculous. These guys, you're trying to cast out of your movement. What I have not kept up with those Dallas folks is that that negative 48? Is that right? Yes. What? What? What's happened with that? Yeah. So this is the right. It's the, the, the Jamatria people who, you know, they think negative 48, that number spells out, you know, JFK junior will come back to life or something like that. But I believe they, because so yeah, so November, they went back to Dallas last November and were kind of waiting around again. And, and, you know, they still sort of travel and they do kind of the Trump roadshow and they go to all these, these Trump events. And obviously their numbers have,

you know, people have kind of gone back to their families in a lot of cases, you know, and you can kind of keep making these predictions. And ultimately, you know, people will start, start waking up even, even no matter how deep in it they are, but, but they're still at it. Yeah. That's one of the weird things about, you know, when you look at the history of doomsday preachers and people who have made apocalyptic predictions and stuff like, you think that being wrong will end up like, ah, it's all over. Everyone's going to leave you, but it doesn't. It's so weird how that works. No, this, this book brought me like the, the thing that I kept thinking throughout the entire book was about the Millerites. And, and about,

like the guy in my head throughout this entire book was the guy who so believed that what he was saying was true, that he waited till the stroke of midnight and jumped off his barn and died instantly. And, and like, it didn't even matter that the next day, everything was fine. And so many people were like, Oh, he got the date wrong, but that guy jumped man. Should people be like, Hey, that guy died for this? No, I mean, it's fascinating that, that, you know, how people grapple with that cognitive dissonance, you know, whether it's the Millerites expecting the apocalypse or, or, you know, Q and unbelievers thinking that Hillary Clinton's going to be arrested, you know, just a few more months from now. I realize in hindsight, I shouldn't have said drinking pee.

I should have gone with the bleach thing because that was probably more prevalent, right? Yeah, I don't think they, I think that is more prevalent. The bleach. Well, yeah, certainly. I mean, yeah, cause it's way more reasonable to drink bleach than pee, Dan. The MMR. If the bleach can clean your house, then it can clean you. That makes perfect sense. Yes. Yes. No, Dan, you're absolutely right. I mean, that is a big thing. And, you know, one of the big Q and on promoters, Jordan Sather has, you know, implied many times that he's going to sue me for, for me saying he wants people to drink, you know, this, what, what amounts to bleach, but obviously I haven't been sued yet. And, you know, the,

you know, people is just, it's terrible with the bleach stuff where people, you know, they say, Oh, you know, I think it's really working. I'm constantly sick. And, you know, my energy turned inside out. It's just, you got to go through it to get to the other side, you know, you got to, you got to be sick for a while for that bleach to really work. Yeah. It reminds me of something Alex said when he just, he said recently, he was really sick with COVID. And so he took ivermectin and then a couple of weeks later, it worked perfectly. Yeah. And it just reminds me so much of that. Like, yeah, all right. Except ivermectin is not going to kill you. That's true.

I think so, I guess. So what do you, what do you see on the horizon for, for QAnon? Do you have any predictions? Yeah. Well, look, I mean, I think QAnon has succeeded in some ways in kind of mainstreaming this conspiratorial thinking in the GOP and to, you know, making it acceptable to, to call your opponents groomers or pedophiles, you know, and obviously the big moment here is going to be 2024 and Donald Trump running again. I think he's going to win. I feel that way too, you know, that video of him, you know, going to the site of the train derailment and giving everyone big max and saying, oh, I love the, I love the McDonald's menu. I know it better than

anybody. And then, you know, people, you know, when you talk to people who kind of follow politics, but, but not maybe as closely as we do. And then they say, well, I don't know about Ron DeSantis. And, you know, I always say, just watch a video of him speaking. Like he's not going to do it because, you know, they want that, they want that charisma or, you know, they want that energy. He's doing a kind of a weak Trump impression. Yeah. And he's, if they talk face to face, Trump would eat him alive. He's so vulnerable to being bullied by truck loser. He seems so, oh God, I'll give you my dark horse right now. Yeah. My dark horse prediction. Hillary. No, I think Nikki Haley will win. Oh, yep. This is really strong. A strong take. Can you

I'm telling you this? Well, I'll tell you the there are a couple of reasons why. First, this is the exact same situation that Nikki Haley was in during her first election, where she had to split through these two people who are essentially way more popular than her by a wide margin. But because they were both such dicks to each other, she wound up sneaking through. And I don't think anybody really wants Trump to be president ever again. Even people who love him, they want him to be God King. They don't want to vote for him. DeSantis is going to get his ass beaten left and right by Trump because he's pathetic. And Nikki Haley is going to come through looking like the only intelligent person on this dumb fucking planet. And I have always

maintained that's what everyone thought was going to happen in 2016, though, like that Trump and some of these other people would cannibalize each other. And then you'd end up with Jeb Bush squeaking through. But I have always maintained that the first female president will be a Republican. And I think that it's going to be Nikki Haley. I think you're very wrong. Your prediction is trash. Yeah, totally. I'm fine with that. I feel like I'm being I'm being swayed like all these things. I said, oh, I don't know, maybe. But no, no. Well, his points on paper are good. Your points are fine. Now, if this were draft Kings and we were gambling on this, you'd get long odds on this. And I would take that bet. I'll take that bet. Yeah, it's

going to pay off if it hits. Yeah, I'm going to I'm not going to bet a ton on it. No. But if I do, if it hits, then that small amount is going to go a long way. Bet five bucks on this to win 20 grams or whatever. I think that's a wise move. You got to talk to Robert Barnes. No, I do not. He's the guy who gambles on elections to Barnes and Noble. Robert Barnes and Noble. So I wanted when I was asking for predictions, I was I was actually more thinking like, what's their next conspiracy? Do you have any idea? That's a good question from from monitoring their their sensibilities and knowing like what triggers there are. Like, can you do you have any

sense of like what what's going to happen next? Because I feel like it's unpredictable. But yeah, but maybe maybe there's a maybe you have some gematria. Ooh, let me ask you this. Let me phrase it to you this way. Do you have any stories that you are working on right now that QAnon could turn into something really juicy? Yeah, you know, actually, yeah, let me lay this out. So I mean, the best ones are that you could really never see him coming, right? You know, the ones that we still talk about now like Wayfair, right? Wayfair is another great example. The idea that, you know, they're just going to latch on to these auto generated names on a furniture site, and it means they're rolling up kids in cabinets and stuff like that. No one except a QAnon person

could ever have the thought of that. But you know, at the same time, I think we're going to see, you know, at the same time, the QAnon, the downside of it as an observer of this, is that it sort of sucks up a lot of energy from the conspiratorial swamps and sort of everything just becomes this vague, like, you know, that's what they want you to think, you know, just kind of like, oh, that's a distraction. But you know, people aren't really like putting in the work. And so that said, the one I'm seeing right now is, you know, this Vivek Ramaswamy guy, this sort of the anti woke CEO, who's declared his presidential run. This never heard of this, dude, this is not what is happening. He's sort of so this is this guy who's he's a he's a really

rich guy. And he is sort of like, I feel like in politics now that can be taken as a red. Well, yeah, he's like Republican Andrew Yang. So so he's like, you know, I'm a business guy, and I got a lot of ideas. I mean, in practice, his ideas are just, you know, destroy federal government. Exactly. And so but the thing is, because he's a rich guy, he has these ties to the World Economic Forum. And so now all these Republicans are saying, you know, you're people like Jack Pasovec are saying, you know, you're an agent of George Soros. And so now he has to say, no, no, no, I, the World Economic Forum is just obsessed with me. That's why they put me on their website, you know, and I said, don't do it. And so I think they're really going to tie this guy in

in a big way. And look, it doesn't have the pizzazz of Pizza Gate or Wayfair or, you know, Tom Hanks, you know, his various conspiracy theories. But but I think this is one that's really going to get cooking as we as we sort of wait for for 2024 really to swing up. I see this guy having I've just looked up his Wikipedia page. And I see him having a number of significant problems with the current Republican Party. One, as a presidential candidate, he's Hindu, that's going to be a big win for the Republicans. Second, he went to Harvard and Yale. Which is going to be very elitist stuff. He's not buying your Big Macs. And apparently, he had a postgraduate fellowship at the Paul and Daisy Soros Fellowship.

I didn't even know that. He's cooked. Two seconds, you just made QAnon happy. This is this is going to be a real uphill battle for him, I think. Wow. That's, you know, it reminds me of that old famous saying, if you're going to hang out with a bunch of witch hunters, don't be surprised if you turn out to be a witch sooner or later. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, this is the guy who wants to say, you know, I'm the I'm the good, rich, well connected Ivy League guy. You know, I'm the I'm the good billionaire. Exactly. But I don't think I don't think it's going to end well. I mean, I really do love that this guy is just like alternate universe, Andrew Yang. And so, you know, obviously, Andrew Yang is now the president. So presumably it'll work out well

for him. We'll see. Well, he was Yang was able to marshal the resources of all of the people who have left the left. All those last liberal types like Dave Rubin and Tim Poole. Man, they were so on the left. Yeah. So lefty. Cool guys. Yeah. Well, well, we should probably wrap this up here in a few, but it's been a delight chatting with you. Absolute pleasure. I hope people do check out your book, which is now available. It is trust the plan, the rise of QAnon and the conspiracy that unhinged America. Now, I want to talk about this subtitle before we leave. Finally, a critique of the book. Yes. You think that this conspiracy theory unhinged America. Jordan has some thoughts for you about the Iraq war.

Also, I think I have a better argument than it did. You know, I think we'll have to save it for the sequel. Maybe, you know, but, but, but, but, you know, I think Jordan's made a compelling point here that we're all just sort of living in the, you know, I mean, look, if someone said, you know, we're all sort of living in the aftermath of 9 11 and Iraq, you know, you're right on. But then that's in the aftermath of satanic panic and the first Gulf War and, you know, and the Millerites and so on and so forth all the way back. So the problem with your thinking, Jordan, is that, you know, it always, there's always another chicken for the egg and another egg for the chicken. Sure. Sure.

My friend, maybe we should learn more about them. Chickens and eggs. Yeah. I don't know which one came first yet. But I do think that there is something to QAnon unhinging America. I'm joking about your subtitle, but there is something to it. There is, there is something different and more weird about this, this time. I think the way that QAnon has successfully gone through the conservative feedback loop and then still come out the other side is kind of an amazing thing to me because it starts out at 4chan and then less than a year later, you're getting occasional drops on Fox News. Yeah. I mean, it is remarkable how, you know,

how long lasting it's been and just really its success. I mean, it wasn't just one thing where, you know, like Jade Helm, okay, Obama's going to arrest Texas conservatives and put them in Walmart prison camps. I mean, it sums up everything. Yes. It was weird when he did that. Yeah. How do we move past that so fast? You know, but I will say something about the subtitle. You know, you write one of these books, you got to have a long subtitle, you know, explaining the deal. But in my case, it's especially useful because it makes clear that it's not a pro QAnon book because otherwise you have the Q on it and it says trust the plan. And so you need the subtitle to say, you know, if you're reading on the subway or at a bar or something that says, you know,

hey, it's not, you know, don't worry. I'm not really boning up on my QAnon. See, that would be a fun subtitle. Trust the plan. The person reading this book is not into QAnon. You know what? We were talking just a second ago about that, like, the way that it went from 4chan to pretty quickly into the Republican Party. And it is sort of different and unique from other times. And I was, I would wonder about your take on this, Will, is like, there is so much that is similar to this about the, to like the Satanic Panic. Right. How much do you think this would have been what happened if the internet was as prevalent back then? You know, it's fascinating. I mean, I think the, the Satanic Panic is,

you know, and obviously a lot of people point to this rightly as a precursor to QAnon. It's so wild how, and you know, I didn't live through it. I was a little kid, but it must have been a crazy time to be alive because how everyone just got on board with it in a way that really they happen with QAnon. We don't have, you know, TV stations, you know, nightly news saying, oh, yeah, you know, turns out there are a bunch of pedophiles in here. We don't have police arresting people because of accusations made in QAnon. Whereas in the Satanic Panic, there's still a guy in prison who was arrested on some kind of trumped up Satanic Panic charge. So, I mean, it really was, and maybe not directly answering your question, but, but I have to

imagine the Satanic Panic would have been even worse. What a just absolutely crazy time to read up on. I mean, yeah, the McMartin trial and Ted Gonderson's nonsense, but I mean, to be fair, Ted Gonderson's still a name that flies around in these circles, you know, like, yeah. And they still pick it up. I mean, they, they say, you know, these kind of foundational Satanic Panic books like Michelle remembers, um, and they, you know, QAnon people will kind of dredge them up. And, uh, you know, even when you have, you know, TikTok teens getting into, into, you know, their own kind of Satanic Panic stuff, where they, they say, oh, you know, look at this stuff in the 80s and no one talks about this anymore.

They don't realize there's a reason. Yep. But that, that also leads me to my next concern about this, like the similarities with the Satanic Panic is like, I think it kind of went away and receded maybe because the internet didn't exist the way it does now. There's such an ability to recycle things and, um, sort of pretend that they're not things that we've moved past. Right. And nothing ever goes away. Right. If we've moved past something, we're not talking about it. And if we're not talking about it to people who've never heard of it, what they're, they're hiding this from us. Why aren't they telling us everything? Yeah. It makes me worry that the Satanic Panic won't, uh, recede the same way the last one did because of that dynamic. It feels, it feels like the way

that COVID has turned endemic. So has QAnon. We have to abolish TikTok. You're right on, because I mean, you can just picture these TikToks where they say, you know, uh, why does no one talk about this? And then, you know, kind of the person making it is just pointing at, at weird stuff from Pizza Gate, for example. Yeah. Well, that's that whole same phenomenon of like, uh, you know, people like Jordan Peterson and, uh, the intellectual dark web folks being like, I just want to have conversations about racial IQ differences and like, why can't we talk about this? Oh boy. You know, it's like, well, for the same reason we don't talk about physiognomy anymore for God's sake. Of course we don't talk about this. You idiot. Society has moved past

this. I don't know. Anyway, that's a great note to, to wrap up. You bet. Well, do you have any closing thoughts? Um, yeah, no, I, uh, it's just so much QAnon is, is just, there's so much weird stuff in it. And there is had so many just bizarre effects and that I wanted to get into in the book that I think, um, you know, often are, we don't have time in the news cycle to get into. And so hopefully folks will like the book. And, you know, I really appreciate you guys giving it a, giving it a read and having me on. Of course. Absolutely. Happy to do so. It's, it's a delight to talk to you. And I have to assume too, that like, because the topic is so broad and the, the implications for like personal stories, the,

the political aspects, the, the narrative aspects, I have to assume that the experience of writing a book about it has got to be like, well, I could write three more books. You know, imagine that has to be frustrating. I, I mean, it is, you do a very good job of balancing out the, the very individual, the micro and the macro are really, really, really well done on that. Well, thank you. I mean, it's really a sprawling thing. And so I, you know, I tried to really get just the, the best and the most interesting and the most maybe poignant aspects of it. And, uh, it's a lot. I mean, and, and as you guys know, I mean, this conspiracy theory stuff, it's, it's, there's a, there's a whole lot to talk about. Maybe too much to the point

where we have like 800 episodes. That might be too many episodes of anything. Have we beat cheers yet? I think so. Good. Yeah. About time somebody. We beat bananas. Well, uh, well, thank you for joining us. Uh, people can find your book. It's all book retailers, Robert Barnes and Noble. Of course. Of course. Good work for Robert Barnes and Noble. Uh, Lemstow books, the Christian books are in my hometown, which I thought was a chain, but maybe not, uh, Amazon. Don't go there. Don't, but, uh, they have books. Uh, people could just find you at will summer on, uh, on Twitter. I'm sure there's links to UBAT. Find stuff there, right? Absolutely. Um, I hope we, we can talk again in the future and, uh, this is wonderful.

Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me guys. Well, uh, we will be back Jordan, but until then, I'm Neo. I don't know how to end these things when we were doing an interview. Cause I don't want to sit back down and record a thing where we do the drop. Right. Anything. So, Hey, we'll be back. Yeah. Hey, this is how we end it. Yeah. Click. Andy and Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Hello, Alex. I'm a person color. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.