Knowledge Fight - #849: Chatting with EJ Dickson

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

In this installment, Jordan sits down with Rolling Stone senior writer EJ Dickson for a chat about online media literacy and fake "Karen videos."

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Thank you so much for having me on the episode today. Thank you so much for having me. I reached out to you specifically because you wrote a piece in the Rolling Stone about a proliferation of fake carons. Could you kind of explain what it is that those are? You want me to explain like what a caron is? No, no, no, the fake version, like the videos that are being pushed around, if I understand them correctly. Are people staging acts of caronness?

Correct. Yeah, so I spend a lot of time on TikTok for my job and I would say my for you page is very wide-ranging as a result. Like I get a mixederva a lot of different kinds of stuff. And the one thing that I started noticing, I was seeing a lot of were these videos of, it was always white women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, freaking out at largely service workers, but also occasionally just like strangers on the street. There were a lot of like parking and driving altercations. And these videos were getting millions and millions of views, which didn't surprise me too much in itself because TikTok, especially as a platform, really prioritizes like outrage-inducing content.

And there's really, there's nothing more reliably outrage-inducing than a video of a Karen going ape shit on somebody. But what did surprise me a little bit was that the videos were clearly fake. They were staged, they were clearly scripted to some degree. They were clearly taking place on a set because there was nobody else in the videos and that was very unusual considering a lot of them to place it like a restaurant or you know some place where you'd expect a lot of people. The sound was perfect. The acting was not great a lot of time. A lot of people, the sound was perfect. The acting was not great a lot of time. And it didn't take a jing as to figure it out.

And also, it was really easy to figure it out. Like, you would just go back to the account, sharing the videos. And it wasn't easy. You know, it might take a couple steps, but it wasn't easy. It was pretty easy to find the source of the videos and you would see the same actor appearing over and over again in various sketches.

But in these specific ones, the ideas, they're portraying these as real. They're not giving you anything other than, you know, your own deductive abilities to suggest that these are staged, right? Yes, essentially. Yes. It does get a little complicated because I have covered in the past some of these accounts that create these types of viral content will have a disclaimer on the original video saying like, this is just a comedy sketch. But this is with the knowledge that they're going to be shared on multiple different kinds of platforms by multiple different times of meme accounts with that disclaimer taken

away. Right. So even if they're sort of like, and this wasn't this case for this particular video, but even if they're sort of like an initial cursory attempt to like include a disclaimer or say, hey, this is not real. There's sort of like a knowledge that disclaimer is not going to be included in reproductions of the video. Right.

So there's almost like a laundering process wherein they make the original video, put this little, we don't believe that we're going to get away with this if we don't lie, but then other accounts which may be operated by them too realistically, you know, we'll put it out without that. Yeah, that's a good way to describe it as a laundering process because they know that these videos are going to be picked up by these very high engagement meme accounts. The one that I talk about in the piece is this account called Cravy Carons, which is on Twitter and has something like 500,000 followers. And they know that the COVID is going to be completely

devoid of context when it's shared there. So it's sort of just a way to be ethically responsible and quotes while simultaneously ensuring the content goes as viral as possible by, or in no way, because you know that context is gonna be erased. Yeah, yeah. I find it wild that we still allow people to get off on like demon style technicalities

where it's like, aha, no, I've signed this in blood so you can't do anything to me. Like we know what you're doing. You're clearly doing this. Well, people don't, I mean, that's the thing. Like they don't know what they're doing. Like the vast majority of people in the comments thought that it was a legitimate video.

They were like, let's find her. Let's find the actress plant, not the actress. Let's find this Karen. Like, let's out her. Is there a go fund me for the waiter that she's harassing in the video? Like, they had absolutely no idea. There were a couple comments that were like, this is fake, but the vast majority took it totally seriously.

That's a really good question. Is there a go fund to be? No, I mean, that's a big no, no, no, I mean that, I mean, that very seriously, is there a grift here as well? Do you know, I mean, I'm not talking just about their, they're laundering these fake videos, but are there supports that people donate money to? Are there, is it, or is it just engagement? supports that people donate money to? Is it, or is it just engagement? I have seen no evidence that there is a grift specific like that, you know, like that they're directing,

trying to direct funds to a specific fake resource or something like that. I believe it is just for engagement, yes, which is, you know, it could be read as a type of grift in itself. Oh, no, it is. I'm just, yeah, but it's not like a direct, you know, there's no direct monetary fraud at all that I get that I can see from any of these types of accounts. Because I mean, we cover info wars. So the engagement we understand, but we've also got that added level of the grift is always

on. You're always selling something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's very interesting. But what I, I mean, I've got so many different kind of notes about this. Like the first thing that I want to talk about is that there's something people are getting from watching these videos, you know, and we can talk about just being outraged, you know, being able to, to like get mad. But there's a million different things we get mad at all the time. What is it about these videos specifically? I feel like that people

are engaging with. Well, I'm not a psychologist. I take it with a grain of salt, but I think I, I feel like that people are engaging with. Well, I'm not a psychologist, I take it with a grain of salt, but I think there are a couple of things going on. I think there's a lot of misogyny. That was the first thing I was going to say is, I think people hate women, but go for it. Yeah, and that's usually, that's the explanation for like 95% of the time why something goes viral.

It's like, oh, it's because people hate women. That's, I could talk for hours and hours and hours about the subgenre of airplane tweets about complaining about kids and moms on airplanes that absolutely fit into that category. But yeah, I think there's a very substantial undercurrent of massage. And these are all women.

These are all women having very public. For the most part, yeah, they're like one or two exceptions. And it's not like, and it's not like men aren't capable of that kind of behavior. You know what you do? Let's do that shit all the time to serve. Yeah, it does that a great amount of time.

Yeah, dudes are pieces of shit all the time. Total. Yeah, it's all white, it's all white middle class, usually older women. So I think that there's a lot of misogyny that's specifically targeted towards women who are not deemed of having value, like a certain type of sexual value in society anymore.

So there is that. I also think that among people of color who share these videos, or like there's a very understandable feeling of- That's time these white ladies have a comment. Exactly, like there is a lot of outrage over white women weaponizing their tears and their outrage and using it against people of color

and lower income people. And I think that that fuels a lot of it, like the very understandable outrage at that phenomenon. So I think it's those two things like sociologically, but I think even more importantly than that, it's like the one impulse that trumps both of those things is that it's blood sport, you know? It's internet blood sport.

Like how can we hold somebody accountable? How can we, you know, make's internet blood sport. Like how can we hold somebody accountable? How can we, you know, make sure that we get this person fired? How can we make sure we make this person's life as difficult as humanly possible for being such an asshole in public? I mean, that those are the majority of the comments that I saw. Sure. And the thing is, like, if it's not true, like if the person is an actor, if it's just an engagement play, then there is no accountability. You know, there is, there's nobody that can be held accountable. This is just, this is just a piece of content that is specifically generated to capitalize on your sense of righteous indignation.

But that's primarily what I think it appeals to. Right. Well, what, I mean, the question then that follows is does that then kind of like diffuser deligitimize Whenever somebody is is actually Behaving terribly, you know like if you're giving me such vehement criticism for this fake video and You're well. I mean Honestly, there's a certain part of me that says,

what that does is actually decrease the ability of anybody to actually address it. You know, if you feel like talking shit on this fake video is what you need to do in order to fight against this type of behavior, then why would you actually do something in real life? Does that make sense? Like your de-legitualize. No, I'm not sure. I'm not sure you went. I'm not sure I understand. Like, you, are you saying that, like, the fact that these videos are fake, deligitimizes, like, the real abhorrent behavior of the cast?

Will it be? Yes. Will it be care in that sense? Yes. I don't think so. I'm cool with that answer. I don't think so. I'm cool with that answer. I don't think so. I mean, just because people don't care or people don't care if something's fake.

Like, that's really what I have learned in covering the internet. Like, people really don't care what the truth is. Like, they don't, you know, that's ultimately secondary to the idea that people can coalesce behind a given narrative and join in behind it. And like I'm not saying that, that's not an argument against like cancel culture or and I put cancel culture in quotes. That's not an argument against like the process of using the internet as a tool for holding

people accountable when they behave badly. Like that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that I think we're at this point in internet culture and in our culture in general where the truth behind a given story or like the context is just completely immaterial. Like, I really do feel that way. So, no, I don't think anybody particularly cares that these videos are fake. Honestly. and I don't think anybody will care. I think that probably

what's going to happen is that we're just going to see more and more and more of them. And the boundaries between what is legitimate and what is staged for clicks and for outrage are just going to completely collapse. I think that's very much the direction we're moving in. Okay, so, so I mean, you're saying that eventually all forms of outrage will be staged for us and then delivered to us through social media platforms. Yeah, I mean, in addition to like, I mean, that's a very fun idea. In addition to like, you know, the actual, it like the actual Karen videos, like, yeah, yeah, I think I just don't think that anybody cares. I mean, then how far does it go? You know, what's the escalation? Will

there be staged cop assassinations? Do you know what I mean? I mean, are we, where is the escalation and is there a, is there a portant in this kind of behavior that can tell it? I mean, I kind of think it's already happening. You know, like I regularly, I can't even think of one specific example because it happens so often. I regularly see at least five things on the internet every day that are fake and are easy to prove that are fake and generate a shit ton of outrage. And in some cases, generate entire news cycles.

And the fact that I can't think of a specific one, well, okay, I guess one example that's very recent is the rumor that people at Burning Man were contracting Ebola. I left the internet and I could not be happier. I'm not on social media at all. It's cool. There were like two days where there were like two days where the Ebola was trending on X, formerly Twitter, which is a phrase I have to unfortunately write all the time now

in my stories. But Ebola was trending on X for quite some time because there was this rumor that I, you know, seem to have been completely just crafted out of thin air that somebody ate burning man had Ebola. And it wasn't, I don't think it was covered by any like legitimate mainstream media outlets because like they have to follow a certain, you a certain fact-checking protocol and basic reporting principles. But it was picked up enough that it was just kind of regarded as fact within a few hours. And this happens all the time. That's just one minor example

of something that I just see happening all the time. And it's not a particularly like new argument I'm making. I don't think that like people don't care about the truth anymore. Or people just fashion, you know, create their own narratives, create their own agendas, so to speak. But it's just, I just see it happening all the time. Right. Right. Well, I mean, part of why I'm so fascinated is with our job, you know, we've looked at Alex Jones over his past 20 years. And that concept of like,

people don't give a shit about what is true or what isn't true seems like it. I mean, it didn't originate with him, but it seems like he was a proto-form of it on the internet. At the very beginning of people not giving a fuck about reality, there was Alex. And so what I'm looking at whenever I see all of these different videos is the idea that it's not a grift, you know, it's just engagement. That seems crazy, that seems brand new to me.

Well, it's not crap because it's not like they're not making money off of it. You know, they're just monetizing. And honestly, I mean, on TikTok, which is a famously difficult platform to monetize content on, you know, you have to think that they're not making that much money off of it. But yeah, I mean, they are making money off of it. So it's not like they're not profiting off it.

It's just a more indirect type of profiting than the type of, you know, to profiting you were talking about earlier. Sure, sure. But I mean, the reason that I bring that up isn't because I, you know, I want them to do it either direction or anything like that. It's that with Alex, that extra step, you know, that extra step of not being just the person who tells you the truth. extra step, you know, that extra step of not being just the person who tells you the truth. Uh, he's also the person who sells you the shit you need to survive. That kind of thing, that's kind of an extra step of evil. That's an intent. That's an intent to take an audience and then steal their money, basically, by selling

the garbage. And with the with the fake carons, I'm fascinated because if they're not trying to then convert their audience into something else, does that mean that they're not doing it yet? Or does that mean that this is a different type of grift? It's just a different type of grift. I mean, a legit grift. I don't think I can use the word grift. It's just a different type.

I'm free to do it all I want. Yeah, so I don't really want to be... I don't really want to say, you know, accuse them of grifting in any way, because they're not. I mean, it's not a grift in the technical sense, but it's just a different type of attention grab. It's just a different type of...

I mean, it's all the same, really. In the attention economy, there's not like that much of a distinction between what Alex Jones is doing. And he's got a more overtly political agenda, but he's also just going on air and saying things for attention that a lot of the time, you know, is it wrong? True. No, no, totally. There's not that much of a distinction. No, no, absolutely.

But that's, I mean, again, that's what I'm kind of driving towards is this idea. And we see it all too often with, you know, like with your wellness scams or your, your other types of grift is that they have suddenly started to turn towards the right wing. They've all suddenly started turning political. We've covered natural healing people who over time, after the COVID vaccine

because they're anti-vaccine, they turn into farther and farther right people. So, I'm seeing where this is and I'm just interested to find more and more similarities to see if there's something that we can do to see what these, before they become monstrous. Do you know what I mean? So That brings me to my next question Should we even be noticing it? What do you mean? I mean I mean is it a

good or is it a positive thing to Share this to make people aware of this. Or is this something that could just like have disappeared, has appeared and disappeared? Oh, I got it said. Had noticed it for a second, then it would never have been noticed. Yeah, I get that question a lot.

And it's a question that I ask myself pretty often because I write about a lot of things that I find morally important. Sure, absolutely. And you know, there is a question of whether or not you, and also I used to cover extremism in the far right far more, although I still do, to some extent,

like far more than I do now. And there is always this question of like, well, are we adding more oxygen to something or platforming something that really shouldn't be platformed? And I think it's a fine line. But I think at a certain point, and I'm starting to, it's really a case-by-case thing with each story

that I think about covering. But I'm finding myself jumping, coming to this conclusion for more and more of them. At a certain point, something gets so big that you can't ignore it. Sure. At a certain point, the horse is out of the barn, right? Like, I think this is actually a pretty good example

of that because they were getting millions and millions of views. And I am not, and they were showing up on millions of views. And, you know, I am not, and they were showing up on my four-year page, and I'm not a person who actively seeks this kind of content. So like, why is TikTok prioritizing this? So I think it's helpful for a number of reasons, this type of coverage, A,

because I think just having increased media literacy in general is helpful even if nobody is actually interested in having any media literacy. And B, to some extent, I mean less in this specific case because this isn't, you know, as overtly harmful as some of the other things that I've covered that TikTok has promoted. But it puts pressure on the platforms which play a huge role in spreading this type of content and ensuring that it gets as many eyeballs as possible because it increases engagement and increases time on the platform. It's only to their benefit that these platforms implicitly promote misinformation. So I think this type of coverage is important because it ultimately puts pressure on them

and holds them more accountable than they otherwise would be to doing that. Right. TikTok I think is a particularly powerful social platform in that regard. Because even though it's uniquely, it's supposedly uniquely tailored to an individual's interest and an individual's like, which it is to some degree. I mean, I get tons of tics talks about. I like news school theater, I like Disney, I like Harry Styles content, I get tons of animal content, I get tons of shit like that. But it also is unique in that it has the power to decide what does and doesn't go viral a lot of times. And I'm not saying that there's like somebody behind a computer like, you know,

deciding, okay, we're going to make this fake Karen video go viral today. But it sees that something is about to get a lot of engagement. It sees it. It sees that something is getting a lot of engagement. It sees that something is, you know, getting a lot of eyeballs on it. And it will boost that because it is to their benefit to keep people on the platform. So it's it. Do you know it like it's not it has a lot of power I guess it's just what I'm trying to say. It's it's a very powerful powerful platform. I think people are scared of it

for reasons that um reasons other than why they should be scared of it. Right. Right. I mean, we're talking about it as it, you know, TikTok is an it. I'm talking about TikTok. Yes. People should, people, there's a lot of discourse about, you know, about TikTok and China. And, you know, I don't, that's not what I, that's not my beat. That's not what I, I don't mean, I don't mean, I don't mean like any associations with the country or any political situation. No, but I'm saying that's why people, that's why people are, I'm saying that's why people are scared of

TikTok. And I'm saying, no, you should be scared of TikTok because it is an incredibly powerful source of information that actively prioritizes information. that is not correct. Right, right. That is why people should be scared of it. Right. And what I'm saying in response to that is that TikTok isn't just like an it. Like there's a reason that these things are happening. There's an algorithm. There's something that drives this engagement and forces it this way.

And I don't understand why we're not doing anything about that. Yeah, I mean, the platform notoriously lacks transparency. All platforms do. So TikTok is not really unique in that regard. But so we don't really know how content is being promoted. And that seems really important. We should know that. Do I?

Sure, sure. Sure. No, a lot of people agree with you. We don't really know how content. That's what I'm saying. That's why we should be scared of it. We should be scared of it, you know? Right. We should be scared of it because, like, A, we don't know how content is being promoted and B, we know that what content is being promoted is often wrong or harmful in various

ways. Right. Yeah. So then, I mean, that's why the way that I find it difficult to talk about it is as though it is a and it you know as though it is an unfeeling corporate engine that cannot be viewed you know like there are people behind this who are doing this on purpose But we don't know how exactly I can't tell you how I can provide any insight Right, right,. So I find that it kind of like removes responsibility for the people if themselves, if they just

go, Oh, well, TikTok does this. Why would you care if you worked for TikTok and you were writing these horrible algorithms if they were horrible? Because it's not you it's TikTok, you know Yeah, I don't know Is well, I mean it's like are you are do you have to call it X? Well, you get sued if you don't call it X What do you mean I mean well earlier you said you know Twitter now known as X or X formerly known as Twitter. And you have to write that, right? Yeah, because I'm a journalist and, you know, it's accurate.

Right, but I mean, do you have to? Is it, will you get sued if you just say, we're going to call it Twitter? I mean, I can't speak to that. I just know that it is, I know I don't like calling it X, but I know it's more accurate to call it X, or really known as Twitter. And as a journalist, accuracy and the truth are important to me. And that might sound a little virtue, like overly virtuous, but it's the truth.

No, I don't believe that at all. I think that's, I'm asking because I find it strange that we, I mean, Twitter stopped being a product a long time ago and started being a place, a place that we called Twitter. And I find it strange that a billionaire can just buy up a place and then say it's X now. He can buy up a product and say it's X, but you can't. It's not good. Yeah. No, it's, it's not good. I do appreciate that we're just agreeing on how things are awful. Yeah, basically, I have a lot of conversations like this.

Most of my conversations with people are like this these days. Sure, sure, the internet's a lot of place. Which again, which brings me to my next question. Do people believe the same things on the internet that they believe in real life. In this case. In what case? I mean, in these TikTok video scenarios, is this something where it's like, I am happy

to believe this while I am on the internet. I'm happy to be outraged while I am on the internet. And the moment I put my phone down, I completely forget about all of that right away. No, no, that's a good question. I don't know. I can only speak to my own subjective experience of how I use the internet. Tell me about how you use the internet.

I had to be strange considering you are both observer and participant. Well, it's also extra strange in that I have a life that is totally separate from the internet. And that is not the case, I mean, it's the case for a lot of people who use the internet, but it's also a case for, it's also not the case where a lot of people use the internet. Like for some people, they live on the internet. And I don't. I have a family.

I have a partner who is completely offline. And it's interesting, like, the way, like he will ask me about something that he read about in the paper that morning. And I'll be like, what are you talking about? And then I'll bring up something that I've been obsessively focused on. That's been happening online. And he'll be like, what are you talking about? And then I'll bring up something that I've been obsessively focused on that's been happening online and he'll be like, what are you talking about? Like it's two completely different worlds, like into completely different like news ecosystems, which I find fascinating. But so for me, and also like I've been working on the internet and have been facing harassment and abuse and such, you know, for so many years, that I have to compartmentalize. You know,

like, I have to just shut it off and be like, this can't, I can't think about this anymore. But that's my own subjective experience of the internet. I don't know if that's that way for other people. I've spoken to many journalists and people of note, all of whom that are female presenting are abused horribly on the internet pretty much constantly. So yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's, it's really quite stunning. Actually, you didn't ask this, but I'll tell you, that the more I started to, the more that like, I started writing stuff that I was super proud of, and the more confident and I felt about my abilities

and my career, the more harassment I got. It was kind of astonishing. Like I, basically the moment I started working for Rolling Stone is the moment that, well, that's actually not true. Like about a year started working for Rolling Stone is the moment that, well, that's actually not true. Like, about a year into working for Rolling Stone, when I really thought that I had like hit my stride and I figured out like what I wanted to write about and thought that I was doing like pretty good work, that was when the harassment started increasing.

And I bet I bet a lot of women who go on this, out your podcast will probably say the same thing. Yeah. Oh, yeah, whenever you, well, you know, the more proud of your work you are, the more you want to put it out there, the more you want people to see it. And then more people see it and then pieces of shit see it. I guess, I guess it's just a bit, I just just a function of visibility. But I found it. At first, I, I first I first I was like, why is this happening at a time when I think I'm doing like really important and really good work and then I realized, oh, it's because I'm a

woman. And it's because I'm a visible woman on the internet. It's really not much more complicated than that. Yeah. No, we're, we're, we're, we're very visible. You can see us, but people do not bother us at all. You know, like when we talk about visibility, there are people who are looking for women to hurt. They're not just looking at people who disagree with them.

Oh yeah, I mean, it's literally happened to me and my mentions right now. Like, I won't get into it, but like, there's literally like, somebody called me a ugly, constantly like 10, like an hour, I don't know if you can put that on the book or podcast, but somebody like an hour gone, I was just like, oh, somebody tweeted,

my quote tweeted me who like shouldn't have. And the more it happens, the more you get used to it, which has helped me just on a personal level and a pragmatic level in doing my job, but is not really a great reflection on the state of discourse who is this. No, no, it's not. reflection on the state of discourse is this? No, no, it's not. I wonder if that is more just a matter of the internet has brought a larger number of people into proximity.

Like would people have always been this, but I mean, people have been this misogynistic since I assume Neanderthals went extinct. You know, like, is this simply an inevitable byproduct of more and more people seeing each other? Just more and more people. Yeah, I think it's so many things. I think it's so many things.

I don't think it's just that, although that's definitely like a driving factor and the anonymity is a driving factor and the fact that we, that people culturally have permission to hate Jews and trans people and black people and women more than they have, you know, have and certainly within my lifetime. I mean, it's a bunch of things, but yeah. All right, well then there's really kind of one last thing that I wanted to talk about. And that is why is everything on the internet madlibs?

Apparently Dave Portnoy is an important food critic now. Yeah. What? Everything is madlibs? Those words aren't, those two words don't make sense to me. What is going on mad lives. Those words aren't those two words don't make sense to me. What is going on? Oh, you don't want to just pizza reviews? No, what? Oh, my God. So you're telling like I read I read this and there's a one he takes one

bite of a pizza. And then that matters to human beings. So where are you asking me about? Are you asking me about, I just want to be clear, like are we talking about like the fact that he does feature reviews? Are we talking about the latest thing that he got in trouble or the not in trouble? But the latest thing that he went viral for, what are, what are the latest thing that he went viral for?

Was that the, that was the fight, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. So tell me what happened with the fight in full detail, please. Well, I guess I have to explain the context. I guess I do have to. If you're saying that you didn't know that Dave Portney was a popular piece of critic, then I guess the context

needs to be explained. Yeah, he's got this spirit. No, he's really viral. He's really popular. He kind of goes back to your point earlier about something's happening on one sector of the internet, that's huge in the other sector of the internet, like has no idea about it. He does these, does these pizza reviews? He just goes to various pizza places on the East Coast,

takes a bite of pizza, gives it a highly specific grade. gives it a highly specific grade. And it's pretty harmless. Like I actually enjoy his videos, the pizza videos. I think they're good. I agree with his opinions. Like I grew up in New York, so like I care a lot about pizza. And like even though I'm not David Portinoe's target audience,

like I think he's a pretty good pizza critic. Like you know, everything he says about pizza, I'm like, yeah, I agree with you. Even if I disagree with him about many other things, I do enjoy his pizza reviews. So those have been pretty popular for a really long time and he recently went into some guys, Pizzeria who I interviewed after this happened I was like, no, I do not want this guy. Because apparently there had been some sort of, like, rumors circulating in the pizza community,

that Dave Portnoy had a lot of power, like a review had a lot of power over the success of an individual business. And this guy was like, no, I don't want to be a part of this. Like, which I understand. And I was like, no, I don't want to be a part of this. Like, I know, I know, which I understand. Um, and I don't want to see the pizza community take an advantage of like that. Well, he just he's, you know, he's an artist and he's a chef. He's like, you know, he feels strongly about his product. And he does not want this guy who he perceives is having like too much power

and influence over the piece of community in general. He doesn't want to play the game, you know, which I understand. Sure. And, you know, I, the clipside of that, which I also understand is that he, you know, what Portney does is no different than food criticism in general, and this guy should be like open to that and should understanding of that. But like, regardless, he came out and he told him to fuck himself and they got in a big fight and Port Noi, like blasted it on his social channels and he and he talked about it on Tucker Carlson. And it became it unleashed this like wave of harassment against this guy. Wait, Dave Portnoy went on Tucker Carlson to talk shit about pizza?

Not specifically for that purpose, but he talked about this guy and the stuff about Carlson. Yeah. Okay, and then I assume that's because soy boy lefties don't want Dave Portnoy eating his pizza. Are we, are we still using those words? What do they call it? Well, that's how it was interpreted. It sort of became, it implicitly became a culture war thing or even though it had absolutely nothing to do with culture wars. Right. You know, if anything, if anything, it was like one of the more apolitical times the Dave Portnoy's been in the news and reason. You know, like

it's, it had absolutely nothing to do with politics, but it was interpreted that way. And in part, because he talked about it, and on Tucker, I think. But also because of the type of audience that Dave Portnoy has and the type of brand that he's built. Right. Right. So then I ask myself the question, that is real. And the fake carons are fake. And I don't know if there's a difference between the two right now. I'm sure. Maybe.

I mean, do you follow what I'm going on? Like, would it matter if Dave Portnoy went on Tucker Carlson to talk about a fight that was staged? Like, was that fight staged? Was everybody in on it? Do you know? Would it, it crossed my mind? Right.

It crossed my mind. I think I asked the guy. It crossed my mind. I don't think it was because he was very upset about the harassment against his family and the death threats that he received. He didn't want to talk about specifics. I'm not going to tell you about specifics, but as somebody with a family, I don't think I would never willingly invite that into my home and onto myself. So I don't think I would never willingly invite that into my home and onto myself. So I don't think it was staged, but I mean to address your larger

point, would it matter if it was staged? I mean matter to who? Would it matter to me? Yes. I mean, I think that the truth matters. I think journalism matters. I, you know, does it matter to Tucker Carlson? No, I don't think Tucker Carlson gives a shit. Tucker Carlson had on a... I mean, Tucker Carlson had on a guy who claims to have done crack with Obama and had gay sex with him in 1999. These are claims that were discredited, like, 15 years ago. Tucker Carlson doesn't care.

But do people on the internet care? I don't know, it depends. It's, should people care? I think so, but I'm not the arbiter of the internet, you know? Sure. Sure. Who is? Do you care?

I mean, would you care if it was fake? What? To me, what I see is the difference is that he's getting real life death threats. He's not getting comments on his posts. He's not a fake, he's not an actor who people are very furious with. He is. But the point, but the point that I was trying to make about the fake carans is that people wanted to. Exactly. They wanted to send this person to after us.

Right. They wanted to dox this person. They wanted and it was a totally imaginary person. But they wanted to. And the only reason why a video like that exists is to capitalize on the desire to do those kinds of horrible things to a person. Right. Right. What is it? Are we are we training ourselves how better to attack real people through these fake videos? Or are we just, or are the fake videos a better way of releasing this clear need to pile on people.

Yeah, I mean, I guess in in that, I think they're better. Sure. They're very they're very cynical, but nobody's getting hurt. It's it's it's it's fake heroin. Yeah, I don't I mean, they're better in that regard. I don't are they more I mean, they're better in that regard. I don't, or are they more, I mean, I think, I think for a lot of people knowing that their fake would make them less entertaining.

That's interesting. Not necessarily for me because I don't find the real ones entertaining. Right. No, you have no interest in watching a real life human being be a piece of shit to another real life human being. That's not- No, I don't. I don't.

It doesn't appeal to me. And I just always wonder what the real story is behind it for both of the people on camera. Right. Someone's having an awful everything. Yeah, and that's not fun. That's not fun for me to watch that. But it's fun for other people. Yeah, I mean, that's...

What is it that they're, are they looking to enjoy the actual abuse or do they enjoy their response to it? Is it all tied together in some sort of weird fetish that we've created out of these Karen videos? Again, I'm not like a psychologist, so I don't know, I can't speak to what goes on in the brain when people just wanna be fucking assholes on the internet. I just, I can't know, I can't speak to what goes on in the brain when people just want to be fucking assholes on the internet, like I just, I can't.

And I also, and I want to be clear that like, I am not, my, I have a very complicated opinion about like accountability culture. Like I am not going to sit here and make the argument that someone who verbally abuses a weight person for no apparent reason doesn't deserve to be held accountable for it. I think that there are a lot of cases, especially if somebody is being racist or abusive or harmful in some way, where it is absolutely acceptable to film their behavior and to call them out on it.

And you know, it should face consequences. But that's what an asterisk. I see a lot of the times, I see, and I'm saying this, more and more on TikTok in particular lately, videos of private citizens being filmed are clearly people who are mentally ill, are in distress, or a lot of the times are neurodivergent and you know, not picking up

on social cues. And these are, you know, if you just took a second, I just wanna be like, if you just took a second to like, think about what, you know, who this person is and what the context is, then you would come to that conclusion. You would come to the conclusion that it might be possible that they're vulnerable in this way. So why attack them?

Why use your platform to attack somebody for clouds. If they are potentially really, really struggling and deeply sick, you know, and that's not a question people are asking themselves right now. It's just not. It's, I see it every day. Like it's just not a question people.

I can, I can let name 10 examples off the top of my head. It's just not a question people. I can I can let name 10 examples off its out of my head It's just not a question people are asking themselves Yeah, that's fucked I mean that's yeah, that's a male as you know It's it's oh god that's that's so difficult because that's And I don't want to say it like this, but it is the first way of viewing that pops to a dumb comics mind. It's like, you guys are leaving so much money on the table. You're going straight from lying to hurting people.

You've got to start a store, you got to sell t-shirts. It's fucked up. It's fucked up because it's not because, but it's just for clout. Oh, yeah. The one example I'm thinking of, I guess I'll just talk about it. I, even though you didn't ask,

the one example that I'm thinking of is this video that is going viral. It's this woman, right? It's actually like a series of videos. And she has been filming this guy in her neighborhood who looks really disheveled. His legs are black for some reason. He clearly hasn't showered in weeks

walking around her neighborhood, singing to himself, to singing gibberish, basically, like, you know, causing, you know, being disruptive in the neighborhood, but is clearly not well. This guy is like clearly not well. And instead of, you know, trying to see where this got family, as if he has any family, you know, getting a wellness check on him, trying to see where this got family is, if he has any family, you know, getting a wellness check on him, trying to see if he's okay. If he could use any support, this woman's reaction was to create an entire TikTok account around her crazy neighbor. And she's got millions of followers now.

And people are like doing lip syncing his, like, the songs that he sings to himself, like they're remixing it. And this happens all the time. I cannot even tell you how common plays this is. And again, because it's TikTok, I am getting these videos, even though I have no interest. Some, you know, that's because they are just getting so much engagement.

And I really wish that somebody would write about it. just getting so much engagement. And I really wish that somebody would write about it. Um, I don't know if I, I struggle with whether or not I should, uh, yeah. No, I totally understand. It's really astonishing to watch. That's fucked up. It's really fucked up in a way that I can really have. Like, I wish I could articulate better how fucked up that is That's I'll send it to you. Yeah, please psychopathic. That is that is deeply psychopathic And if you look at the comments nobody says anything like that No, nobody nobody's like why are you filming this guy is this guy? Okay? It's none of the comments are like that. It's just all jokes. So, to me, what that indicates is that the algorithm that people have designed is specifically

angling towards creating a place where people who would say that psychopathic, never see that shit. Yeah. You know, like it is, it is creating a cordoned off area of the internet where this is fine. This is fine. This is fine. And this area, it's not fine. And this area, it's not. Well, no, I would actually argue that it was a cordoned off

area of the internet, but that cordoned off area has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger because of platforms like that. Okay, now I'm interested. Like in the past, you know, if five years ago, 10 years ago, you would see the people, the only people who were sort of making blood sport out of, you know, doxing private individuals and cruelty like that was fortune or Kiwi farms or places like that. And now it's sort of, there are not only are there more forums for like right wing assholes to do that

and not only are there more right wing assholes doing that, but there's also sort of been this water down effect. I guess you could call it where we're not just talking about doxing, you know, it's not just right wing assholes talking about doxing like women and trans folks because they, you know, posted photo on the internet that maybe. Yeah.

It's like they are creating, it's like left-wing people, right-wing people, it's like totally politically unbiased. And it's like they are creating a sort of social justification for it. Like there's another example, this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. This woman Sabrina Prater was a trans woman on TikTok

a couple years ago who would record videos of herself in her house dancing and her house was like kind of, you know, ill-cat on the surface and it looked a little, she was doing some construction on it, I think. So people were taking these videos and not only naming them and remixing them, but also like accusing her of being a serial killer and calling CPS on her, because she had kids and calling the police to check her basement and doing these true crime-esque videos

like dissecting her content, it was really insane. And this was a poor trans woman. And these people were dissecting her life and doxing her. But they had come up with like a high-minded justification for it, which is, oh, we're saving lives, we're helping people. And this, it happens all the time. Right. And that's really like, when I say a watered down effects, that's in part because that's like the Kiwi Farms and 4-Ch fortunes shit sort of trickling down to general society right well I see that all too often as the legacy of uh info wars and sandy hook, you know

yes did the Alex sent these people to harass uh based upon just lies and shit yeah just to fucking make money and get engagement and draw Yeah, just to fucking make money and get engagement and draw Draw cash his way So to see that it's it's now so democratized that it's just like the eye of Sauron is on you at all times It's fucking crazy. Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it Honestly now everybody Alex Jones and abuse the rest of the human race. Pretty much. All right, is there anything you like about the internet? Otherwise, we're

about to end this on the saddest, most miserable. Um, yeah, they're wanting to stand up and walk away from the bad end. No, no, I'm just putting my light on because it was getting dark in here. Is there anything I like about the internet? Yeah, there are a lot of things I like about the internet actually. Okay. There, I love the internet. I really do. I have had more fun on the internet. Like some of the funnest times in my life have been on the internet. I remember...

This is so specific, but um, yesterday, so you know how Steve Hartwell died at the Snashmark guy? Yes, I do know. I do know that. Yesterday my friend Miles Clee, who's my colleague at Rolling Stone, is like an amazing writer. He wrote a post about Steve Harwell's Twitter presence, and he did this tweet a couple of years ago that was like dunking on DJ Khaled when DJ Khaled said he doesn't go down on his wife. I don't know if you remember it. Yeah, and it was just like, it was an amazing dunk. It was like a classic moment in internet history.

And I was thinking about, I was trying to think of a headline for the piece, and I was like, do we frame it around like, Steve Harwell's Twitter history? Do we frame it around this like one moment that is like iconic in my memory? And I was thinking about this tweet, and I was like, where, I remember the exact moment where I was when I saw that tweet,

and just like the joy that filled my body when I saw the tweet, it was almost like an endorphins rush. And I was thinking, wow. I'm just bringing that out because you asked if there's anything good about the internet, and I think one of the good things about the internet is that it can bring moments like that. The internet also brings together marginalized people in a way that is sort of unprecedented

in human history. It can hold power to a count in a way that's unprecedented in human history. Like, when Harness correctly, the power of the internet is really something to be holds. And I think it's beautiful. The problem is that it's just very often not Harness in a way that I think is morally defensive. Right. So we need to find people who are really good at Harnessing the internet in the right way. And then take over the world. Educate people in media literacy and how to use the internet responsibly. And I think that a lot of, I mean, my kids aren't

old enough. But I had to guess I would say that a lot of media literacy targeted at Gen Z has not been focused around like how to consume information responsibly or like I spoke some misinformation at all. I think it's probably been like don't send nudes, you know? Like I think that's the majority of like internet education for teenagers. And I think that's a big problem because there are a lot of ways that people that age use the internet in ways that I think are irresponsible. And if people took the time to discuss that,

if educators took the time to discuss that, then I think that could help a lot. But what do I know? I'm a childless heathen. So it is nice to know that people are still telling children to not be children instead of helping them. I appreciate that a great deal.

Well, yeah, that happens all the time. Well, Ejane, thank you so much. This has been an absolute delight of a time. Thank you. You are. This was fun. I like the tangents, but we went down. That was fun.

That is what I'm fairly well known for. Tangerential boring side notes. So people can find you at the Rolling Stone. Is there anywhere else that they can find you? Yeah, you're promoting up soon. No, you can follow me on X, formerly known as Twitter at eJDixon. Alrighty, well then, thank you so much.

And hopefully we'll talk again soon. Bye. Thanks, have a good day, nice meeting you. Andy and Kansas, you're on the Earth. Thanks for holding. So I like some of the first time I've called I'm a huge fan. I love your work.